In house movements & METAS: Overrated? Worth it?

[@theWaltVegas]

So we're NOT talking about floral shirts.

[@JO11190]

Ahahahahah

[@gioboye]

lol we’re going to need a video now on floral shirts

[@richardmorris7063]

Fancy,when we going to Hawaii?

[@GGWPPPPP-q5v]

Hahaaa

[@LucaTheStar]

So sad, unsubscribed 😔

[@L233233]

I don't particularly care if a movement is in-house but I would like something more up-spec from an SW200/ETA2824 once we're getting past a certain price point. Oris asking for 2.5k Euro for a baseline SW200 that I can also get in a Glycine for €350 off Ashford? Tag Heuer asking 3.1k Euro for the same? Breitling 6k for a Sellita? Hublot 8k? Yeah, sorry, no. It doesn't have to be in-house, a well-specced Kenissi or AMT movement is fine with me, but I don't think it's appropriate anymore to do "luxury" in 2024 with a SW200. That's now microbrand territory. Especially after the massive price increases over the past 2-3 years.

[@smgeraldo]

Fully agree with you, have been saying this for a long time now!

[@georgegiesbrecht8224]

Well said

[@davidr2802]

And to add. stop with the exhibition casebook with a SW 200.. Oh, sorry, it has a "custom" rotor.

[@L233233]

@@davidr2802 I think that's mainly done for first time buyers and one watch only buyers. It's actually a big selling point for that demographic. They find even an unremarkable and undecorated movement interesting and fascinating. That's why pretty much all entry-level Swatch group watches and entry-level Seikos come with an exhibition case back.

[@AbcDino843]

I am approaching this differently. They can keep putting SW200 into all their waches, IF, they put the cost difference into the appearance of the watch and the quality of fit and finish, instead of the profit margin.

[@gioboye]

Love watching other watch channels for entertainment I’m sure we all know who I’m talking about. But when I see a new video come out from this man then I know I’m about to learn something new about watches, I always look forward to your videos keep’em coming!

[@tiffer67]

Absolutely agree. 3pm Saturday used to be KO time for football for me, now it's the time I can watch the latest upload from Mike.

[@TheVladTepes]

The others are mainly freaks or fakes, unfortunately, like person without job who got married for relatively rich guy, so she can call herself watch enthusiast. Then the guy who ended up in prison for a fraud of 5M USD because he sold other people's watches and kept the money, then the guy who was selling fake sunglasses, then the guy who turned right wing extremist in UK and got reported to police, then couple really obese guys who seek for an attention by using vulgar language and calling themselves watch experts. :) Please, they are out of this industry: they didn't learn watchmaking in the school, they didn't work in watch industry, they are the outsiders who sold watches here and there on the black market - no invoice, no VAT, no guarantee. Mark pays the watches with his own money and I respect this. With time he became knowledgeable and, as a consultant, he knows to tell the story in a meaningful and interesting way. I think he is one of the best.

[@666mademe]

Have to agree fully! And keeps the information legible for all levels of enthusiast

[@M3_86]

The best for knowledge and common sense!

[@guyplay]

Same here. He is the best

[@Contredanse]

Your list of movement requests are exactly what I want as well: 1) Thin chronograph movements 2) Thin automatic movements that allow for sub-12.5mm or sub-11mm watches. 3) More micro rotor movements 4) Instant change dates at 12MN 5) 5Hz movement with a 10 year service interval 6) Stock parts for 25 years. I'll toss in a few more that are not necessarily just focused on the movement but follow the theme of mattering more than METAS or COSC or in-house. 7) Allow movement and non-movement parts to be readily ordered from anywhere in the world (e.g. ordering the parts suck because there are no service centers for the brand you want in the country you live in) by anyone (i.e. no exclusive distribution to qualified service centers) to democratize repair. 8) It's been decades or over a century since watch straps and bracelets were introduced. Stop half-baking them! Make them of a decent quality (milled with no unsightly gaps between the clasp and the links), have at least 5 micro-adjust holes, have on-the-fly adjustments on the clasp for when my wrist swells due to moisture or temperature, have half-links so I can actually get a good fit, use quick release spring bars by default OR have holes in the lugs to make strap replacements easier, and get rid of the pins and pin and collar system and use screws. I refuse to believe that the costs increase that dramatically when you apply all of these at scale. 9) GMT bezels should be 48 click bezels to account for half-hour timezones. 10) Lume the dang bezels so they can actually be used more effectively in the dark! 11) Use more lume across the board.

[@UTOOOOOOOY]

There are several Miyota watches out there that are 10mm and below that are at most, 150m water resist, so #2 is already very possible.

[@C.C._TJ_Jason]

Yes!!!

[@eurovnik]

2) there are 10mm watches with ETA 2824. E.G. Longines Heritage Conquest. Watches are fat because that's the current fashion not because of the thickness of the movement. 6) The best way to guarantee parts availability is to go for movements with high market share. E.g. It's still super easy to get AS parts for movements from the 50s, 60s and 70s. There will be plenty of barely used ETA and Sellita movements in 25 years time. Even if a company states "25 years parts availability", it's meaningless. They can change their mind or go bust any time which means no parts. 7) The Swiss courts appear not to care about this and to me remarkably tolerant of monopolistic practices. See the Cousins case against ETA/Swatch Group 8) You're right, the costs don't increase much, but so few consumers know the difference so there's no incentive to produce better straps or bracelets. Basically, these are luxury products which consumers buy as status symbols because of the marketing not because of the characteristics of the watch itself. And the brands know it.

[@hirobosch38]

30 years ago, you were able to get an automatic-chronograph with 100 m water resistance and a thickness of 10.5 mm: It was the Blancpain Leman 2185.

[@martinharrison4245]

Ive got a tudor aeronaut gmt is only 10.5mm thick. Its an eta movement, but keeps good time. My tudor chrono is a breitling based B01 , yet its nearly 14.5mm . My chrono bb is about the same as my 41mm bb which has the Mt in-house movement. Personally I think its all about control when it comes to servicing . I believe tudor could make their watches thinner too, but then they would compete with the rolex brand . Why pay double if tudor are just as slim and accurate? I think tudor are going for the value angle compared to omega by having the metas status. Tudor has been the most talked about brand in the last 10 years , by achieving metas status , and their watches being 2k less than a similar omega , its a win win for rolex . By tudor competiting with omega , it keeps the rolex brand ahead . If rolex went metas , it would be like saying omega were more advanced , so its used tudor to win its battle. Its a clever strategy saying our 2nd tier brand can offer what omega does , cheaper , yet implies that rolex doesn't value metas highly enough , to go that way ? That's my understanding on it anyway !

[@Time_Passages]

I always take my binoculars when going to Geneva to spot Norwegian blue parrots in the cocoa plantations by the lake. Beautiful plumage!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Good to know. Fauna as well as flora 😂

[@surindhatalwatte8176]

💯 Agree - thinness, power reserve, shock resistance, decoration, micro rotors to expose more of the movement - these offer real value

[@johnnychen235]

Mike, once again you hit the nail right on the head - thoroughly enjoyed your video, and couldn’t help but smile to your comments on thinner movements, micro rotors, stocking parts for 25 years - everything that will make me buy that watch as well! Love the breakdown & analysis - thank you once again.

[@andrewschultz8665]

The argument you make is very valid. I primarily purchase Omega watches because they keep parts and provide service for almost all of the watches they have ever made. I recently sent a vintage 1982 Speedmaster mark 4 to Switzerland for service and they are able to do it with no problem. Longevity to me is far more important than the newest and best technology.

[@georgegardiner1888]

Yes I have a 1956 sea master still got it serviced

[@LucaTheStar]

Every time you mention the Swiss cocoa plants I get the biggest grin on my face.

[@koolpep]

@@LucaTheStar I wonder when he sets his sights on the Italian coffee plantations 🤣🤣

[@charlesrusselliii2952]

I lol'ed

[@dakistle]

BAZZING!!!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Nothing quite like swiss made chocolate. 😀

[@wertzuio2127]

Absolutely agree with all your points in the end! More micro rotors, longer service intervals and guarantees on parts all amazing ideas

[@zambonidriver42]

I have a bunch of COSC watches. They’re all inside of 2 seconds a day. I also have a Spring Drive, and some others that don’t do certifications, yet they’re 1-2-3 seconds per day of accuracy. Once I got a Spring Drive, pretty much everything pales in comparison with regards to accuracy. Yet I still like and wear non-Spring Drive watches. I still wear a Seiko 5 and a few Cocktail Times. I do like a longer power reserve. “Hey, that’s still running! I’ll wear that.” I would like to see reduced thickness. Once I got to a point where watches were increasingly accurate, accuracy became less important. I missed a lot of other watches that I really liked wearing.

[@dakistle]

This is a rock solid opinion

[@norompaslasguindas]

Two of my fun to wear watches don't even hack

[@WatchesCanBeFun]

I’m so glad you stick to what you’re super knowledgeable in. Super unique channel and I love listening to it on the drive to work.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for that. I try to do something worth watching. I don't get everything right - I am after all just an enthusiast 😀

[@Griffin1994]

The end where you were saying what actual innovation is…I felt that

[@ioakimmakis9288]

You explained it fine. All I know is that my affordable Tissot heritage 1938 cosc has been running +17seconds/month for one year. It is a beautiful watch and its accuracy is more than excellent, almost +0,5s/day. So, if companies want, they can make affordable (price

[@Ben-xz2lf]

I own one mechanical watch. It’s a Tudor Prince Oysterdate 74034 and the fact that it’s an ETA 2824 gives me a lot of peace of mind knowing it won’t cost too much to keep going.

[@djohnson9857]

I don't think ETA get the credit they deserve for the quality and reliability of their movements, to have so many of them out there and rarely hear of an issue is very impressive. There's a reason that Lamborghini let Audi build their engines!😅

[@shj2000]

Brilliant! This has to be your finest, most well reasoned presentation to date. Subscribed.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Welcome aboard 🙂

[@tonydilucente2342]

Interesting topic for me, Mike. You are a breath of fresh air right now in what I consider to be a stale KZbin watch community. I am a movement guy, and I like to work on them; they play a big part in my purchase. I have a number of COSC certified watches, from very expensive to under 1000 USD. I have the following thoughts: 1. Is there another cost to in-house movement development, the time and cost to patent a movement? I can see Rolex and Sellita, et al being very possessive and aggressive about their movements. I think taking the extra time and design cost to differentiate movements could be a factor as well, and for many brands this is not worthwhile given the plethora of quality movements already available. 2. For me, COSC certification is good enough at the moment on the Swiss side of things. However I would like to see some common certification process that encompasses every eligible movement manufacturer and movement. Also, METAS certification to me is overkill if only a select number of brands can achieve this at the moment. As a Tudor owner, at this time METAS does not pop up on my radar screen since the only comparison is to Omega. Sometime next year I hope to be able to purchase an Omega, but I don't even think of METAS as a consideration; COSC is just fine. 3. On a personal note, my obsession with movements is driving my wife crazy; she wants me to retire but I continue to work to save up the funds for more watches with the various movements I want to own and play around with. A final note for anyone who is interested. The MIDO All-Dial (discontinued, I think) for under 500 USD and the Tissot 1938 for around 625 USD can both be picked up on the grey market and both are chronometers. They don't come with the COSC paperwork but they run at COSC straight out of the box. Cheers

[@Ossory88]

You got a real grasp of german pronunciation. ❤ Cheers from Germany

[@thewheelieguy]

Truth. He does still pronounce S as Z in the watchmaker Sinn but that's a problem throughout the watch community. I will fight that another day. (If they've actually studied German, ask them to pronounce "seit länger zeit" and it might provoke thought)

[@rosomak8244]

@@thewheelieguy Except you apparently made two mistakes in the German sentence you provided.

[@FlorianaLions]

​@@rosomak8244... it's more of an adverb than a sentence to me.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

My german teacher once failed me for my final exam. Her feedback was "You have the best german pronounciation in the class. Problem is what you are actually saying makes no sense whatsoever. But it sounds super german though"

[@Ossory88]

@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch hahaha. That's an hilarious anecdote. But as I think the pronunciation is already the hardest thing about German, maybe you're destined to learn it. All you need is a loving connection to the culture. May I suggest German watches? ;-)

[@wifine1951]

I love your videos. You give a different perspective and a calm manner

[@zosothezephead837]

The antithesis of The Mad Watch Collector.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I enjoy MWC - I do wish I had a teeny bit of his pep, but yes we are quite different in style 😀

[@GentlemensWatchServices]

Making parts available for independent watch makers again would be a big improvement.

[@Jai99]

Long time watcher, There just a noticeable error - DIN 8309 is 4,800 A/m NOT gauss, with converts to only 60 gauss which is not at all antimagnetic. I don’t care about it as much but some might. otherwise love listening to your takes all things watches.

[@Murdoc370]

Actually, the old German DIN 8309 demands 4.800 Ampere/m , not 4.800 Gauss. 4.800 A/m equals around 60 Gauss. However, Sinn (and other German) Watches that are certified as antimagnetic according to DIN 8330 can withstand 80.000 A/m = 1.000 Gauss.

[@richardmorris7063]

I like you're channel,you really get into the nuts & bolts! Looking sharp today buddy..

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks - Cheers 😀

[@harrycee656]

After 2 years, I am still quite smitten and I still greatly enjoy my DUW3001 in my Nomos Tangente. That movement is innovative and it is a great example of Engineering Art in Motion. I would like to get a Spring Drive and Coaxial movement. Then my collection is "complete"... LOL

[@JeloMa89]

Always a pleasure to see your video

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks a ton

[@haravindaf]

I really love your videos. I started following you recently and absolutely worth it to spend time on your videos

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you like them 😀😀😀

[@prospect_joe9813]

You're absolutely correct on the *stocking parts* point. I recently bought a junghans solar on the used market and took it to get it serviced and the watchmaker offered to just put in a seiko quartz movement.

[@YehoshuaMenachem]

Why I prefer metas: 1. Obviously any particular watch had a quality check. 2. They ARE consistently comparably more accurate. Less than a second gain/loss in time, based on my experience with two watches.

[@paulkukula6541]

Great video as always. Amongst my watch collection, my $50:00 Lorus dive style watch, is one of my favourites. It keeps time,accurately. With 100m of water resistance, it has kept all moisture out for last 3 years of beach swimming. I replaced the battery myself about 6 months ago & it is still alive. Deep sea watches of 30atm or more is great, but not necessary for majority of people.

[@nikolaidiqnov6801]

For most people buiyng watches, the only thing that matters is brand recognition. No more, no less. Oris, Tag Heuer, Breitling are all using ETA or Sellita based calibres. All of the entry level watches in the Swatch group are using ETA. Personally, I don't mind manufacturers using ETA ot Sellita movements, as long as they keep the prices at a reasonable level. Problem is that prices went up drastically the last two years and the manufacturers are still using the same ETA and Sellita movements if their watches.

[@WatchandSon]

Loved the list of movement requirements 💯 Wholeheartedly agree regarding METAS, marketing/pricing strategy. Both my Seikos run at less than -5/+10 a day.. my favourite movements to look at are my Seagull and Yema.. both hand wound..not even a micro rota required...love 'real world' innovations...thoroughly enjoyed 👏👏👏👏

[@MrAndy76101]

Always feels like a fantastic business education beyond just the watch talk.

[@356cruzer4]

Thanks Mike for another piercing analysis of watch industry marketing! After this discussion you inspired me to take out my first generation Sinn 756 from 2004 and RE--ENJOY it; Valjoux 7750, anti magnetic per DIN 8309, tegimented 40mm case, argon filled, 20 bar water resistance, low pressure resistant. I really feel where my money went when I bought it 20 years ago. Enjoy the hobby in good health mate.

[@anoldslowhorse]

I will say it again , your watch videos are the most interesting videos on KZbin… and I thank you for making them 👌

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

and thanks for watching 😀

[@MartinOfEarth]

I just wanted to comment that I particularly like the way you say "particularly". keep it up champ

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks and cheers in particular...🙂

[@401Blues]

I am somewhat new to watch collecting so identifying watches of quality and good value is also new. It nice to have new criteria other than Watch Details - Dial texture, applied marker, case back, case material, domed / sapphire crystals and Easy adjust, quick release, and screwed link steel bracelets.

[@milqn4o]

YES! MY SATURDAY IS GOOD NOW. CAN'T WAIT TO WATCH

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Lol. Thanks always 😂😂

[@JimWestrich]

Thx Mike! Fully agree that other properties e.g., the ones you mentioned like thinness are more important. However, imagine the Swiss brands would not certify. At this point, it's a necessity from a reputational perspective

[@deanvanlaarhoven1413]

Grand Seiko developed a new dual escapement lever system that works from a direct and indirect strike of the lever. They also have their spring drive MECHANICAL movements with magnetically braked escapement. They exist and are unique whether you like it or not. Give them some stinking credit.

[@PeterLarsson-b7j]

Thanks for another great video. I totaly agree. I allways loved watches. But I started my collection this year. As an engineer I like innovations. But I have come to the conclusion that legacy, history, charm and a cool story behind the watch makes me happier then specs, certificstions and other stuff. If I want accuracy and robustness I use my G shock 5000u, which also is a charming one 😊. Happy sunday all.

[@TheBlackranger63]

Love the channel and the video(s)! Tudor Ranger wearer here. I liked the Ranger before Tudor discontinued the model with the Tudor Rose. I love the current model and bought one because the design speaks to me. All the rest is gravy 😉 That and as an Army Ranger, it’s cool to wear a “Ranger” watch 😉 😊 Keep up the great content!!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Will try my best, thanks a ton 😀

[@w.alexanderholt9338]

I loved this vid as it’s straight forward in common sense. I think your viewers agree most your comments not that any one opinion is right or wrong. Keep em coming as it’s my weekend curl up favourite watch review channel😎

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching - always 🙂🙂🙂

[@visiondecalee-o4f]

Great show, Mike! As an engineer and collector with a penchant for vintage pieces and complications, I have zero interest in marketing BS and the alphabet soup of certification standards. If you care about accuracy, get a Citizen with the Caliber 0100 with +/-1 sec/YEAR. I change my watches daily, and I don't keep them on winders, so +/-10 sec/day on a 1960 JLC that I refurbished myself is more than adequate. Tudor is indeed a prime example of over-hyped nonsense, and its service center in TX is overwhelmed with warranty returns. Yes, they are solid watches, but good luck getting one serviced by an independent company, as even a simple regulation requires specialized tools that watchmakers cannot purchase. For most people, a base 2824 architecture, regardless of flavor, is more than enough, easy to service, and robust enough for any application. Kudos for another myth-busting show!

[@chris9650]

See this is my point. Quartz movements with serious accuracy like this is horology taken to a new level. Getting over romantic about the movement being mechanical or quartz is seeking a different type of product, not high horology.

[@visiondecalee-o4f]

I'm into high horology big time but read about the 0100 and see what an amazing engineering feat it is on a mechanical level.

[@chris9650]

@@visiondecalee-o4f it's insane the accuracy of that piece.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Our obsession about movements is a relatively new thing really. I go back and forth about caring and not caring about what's inside. Thanks for watching and for the kind words 😀

[@markdavis911time]

Kudos on a wonderfully well conceived and well presented video, that must have taken considerable effort to compile. Thoroughly enjoyable. Thank you.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching 😀

[@ernstplomann5003]

I 100% agree with your wishes on movements (5hz, 10 year interval,

[@originalboondi]

Superbly succinct analysis as ever. Love the way you get to the meat of the subject by ripping it off the bones. Ive tried to explain this to one of my "watch friends", but he seems none the wiser, so Im just going to send him a link to your vid instead.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you feel my approach is useful. Appreciated. Maybe for friend will appreciate it as well 🙂🙂🙂

[@andrehernandez3193]

Great video and you have given me a lot to think about. I recently purchased a Black Bay 41 burgundy bezel. My other watch is a SINN 556 A RS. I noticed they both seem of high quality however, the Tudor seems more accurate and you can tell the quality is a grade above the SINN. If I had to sell one of these, it would be the Tudor. I really love SINN as a brand and its reputation as an understated tool watch. As far as the movements I do notice little things about the Tudor vs the SINN like the rotor. When the rotor spins in the SINN, it sounds like a cheaper miyota movement to me.

[@djohnson9857]

It's a coincidence that you used the Zenith 21 in the background while listing your desires. I wear a titanium model on the bracelet as my daily, it wears like a 42, is still keeping excellent time after 7 years, and has a very unique high beat movement. Not an obvious choice for a daily, but it's been surprisingly bombproof.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Nope - I chose it because they have the 21 movement that has a separate barrel that powers the chronograph component. It's got this whirring sound when it runs that I think is super cool. 😀😀

[@jaydub9509]

Fantastic video, Mike! It's difficult to come up with counterarguments to almost any of your carefully considered points. Like you, I'm all for thinner watches and more micro rotors. One item on your wish list that I'm not too sure about is the importance of instant change date at 12, but maybe I'm missing something. My own personal wish concerns the lower end of the cost spectrum; I'd like to have access to a wider selection of affordable mass-produced movements for watch building, e.g., beyond simple day/date complications.

[@robertposteschild2353]

Less about being overrated, more about being relevant for the price. If you're going to put a cheap movement such as an SW-200 into a watch, charging 5k is completely stupid. Looking at you, Breitling.

[@lonewolfemcquade8133]

But at least Breitling assembles, modify, decorate and regulate "In house" So it's not like the movement's are right off the shelf and slapped in.

[@koolpep]

@@lonewolfemcquade8133and in Q1or Q2 2025 we finally get the new Breitling in-house movement (not chronographs) and all is good in the world. 😊

[@cebb-gj6wi]

True. So it becomes much better. Sad that people just ignore the watch if it is not in house, when it is often better. People just read headlines, and never the real content

[@markenlightenment7101]

​Everyone decorates and regulates their movements above the 1k range. In house is a big scam for the most part (minus very few movements) ​@lonewolfemcquade8133

[@koolpep]

@@lonewolfemcquade8133 next year they will bring out their own time only in-house movement.

[@bobwatson9290]

Agree 100%. Purely a dig at Omega. Give me a watch sub 12mm, 0-+5 sec a day, 70hrs power, and I wish more brands would use tritium.

[@chriscardwell3495]

Mike - I would like to increase your expectations to include . . . Parts available for at least 50 years . . . where the watch is passed from one generation to another . . . 100 years is not unreasonable. With some watches OEM parts are available but this is disliked by the original manufacturer. Also include fast service times of 1 or 2 weeks at a reasonable price . . . from a local shop . . . at half of the manufacturer's inflated cost. For the ultra-mass-produced Rolex these expectations are being met. Other watch experts have suggested a quality watch has a 3 Hz movement . . . I don't know what to believe.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Raising the bar 🙂🙂🙂

[@guyplay]

Great video as always. To be honest I feel like people over think watches and movements. By what you like, and take others opinions with a grain of salt. I like Seiko’s and Omegas. Love Seiko more and my SPB 143 is perfect to me. I like a utility watch and it has exceeded my expectations. I like the bracelet and the movement as well as the overall quality. I prefer an unsigned crown. I know this is off topic and I appreciate all your videos. Best guy on KZbin

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Overthinking is part of having a hobby. It's the geek factor 😂 Thanks for watching 😀

[@jeffee1933]

Love your videos Mike. Keep up the great work That new Omega movement is fugly. Prove me wrong 😂 I often lament Omega using closed case backs but not this time.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I actually like the new movement, but it is of course subjective .😀

[@cjr1324]

Another great educational video. Thanks!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

You bet 🙂🙂

[@VmanStudioz]

Boomshockalocka!! The Master has spoken 💪🏻⌚️ Next up, would be great to do a similar video for High-end movements you find in Patek, Lange, and Moser, etc…AKA Mr Valjoux

[@MegaThucydides]

As usual, there's a lot of agreement with your points. On accuracy, however, it really depends on if you are a serial rotator of watches, or if you are "monogamous" and wear one watch for a long time. If you are the latter, and you are anal about your watch losing time, then having stringent accuracy standards that severely limits the downside is attractive. Having established that some do see value in accuracy and downside protection, I do agree that external agencies may add unnecessary cost if the manufacturer can already achieve that level of QC internally

[@WAMwatches]

First I completely agree with every point you made and also agree that every “want to have” is great and would be a huge improvement. My counterpoint would be a little bit of your own argument. The portion about owning a mass produced super car… I 100% agree I don’t need a super car, but if I had the ability to own one with minimal negative impact… well I gotta get my Ferrari (one of the cool ones of course). For my price range I really want to get a nice top end watch I can wear 90% of the time. Tudor and Omega have been the main back and forth.. though you do have me looking at the Mark XX. Regardless, sage advice as always.

[@vincentnggh]

My wish list is kind of similar to yours - a Grand Seiko spring drive movement with a peripheral rotor and a 20-year service interval.

[@TheLute70]

Thanks Mike. As usual a thoughtful and interesting video. I have a micro brand (Orion Calamity) with a Miota movement that keeps time like my Omega Aqua Terra with a META certification. It cost a fraction of the Omega. Go figure.

[@christophvonherrath4280]

Yes, quite the experience… the plantations along lake Geneva. Who doesn’t know about those!? Thank you very much for your interesting and entertaining videos. It’s always enriching to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

8th wonder of the world 😂

[@craigborrenpohl1233]

I appreciate your opinion, rational presentation, and conclusion. Here’s where I struggle. I’ve nearly written off most offerings with an NH movement. Seiko’s listed accuracy, in my mind, is horrible even though I know most people’s real world experience is much better than listed accuracy. I appreciate a company making the real world investment to develop and prove they’ve made a great movement. Even if it is just a guarantee stamped on the box.

[@borassictime918]

Totally agree with your wish-list for feature benefits Mike, like a thin chronograph movement. After all you can get +/- 2 secs per day from an SW200, without COSC, with regulation (as I have). And isn’t QC rather important? Anecdotally Tudors have had more than their share of QC problems….

[@tonyvera-cruz6422]

Thanks for the very informative topic Mike! Your discussion reminds me of the "relatively" recent Oris Caliber 400 with it's above average magnetic protection, 5-day power reserve and 10 year warranty. However, it seems to have some teething problems when setting the time. And no comments on the Hawaiian shirt. 😂

[@TomHudsonOfficial]

You speak absolute facts!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

It's a perspective at least .😀

[@TomHudsonOfficial]

@ it’s refreshing to see a KZbinr talk facts when it comes to watches. I aspire to become a large KZbinr to set things right in the community also.

[@spencemiller9301]

Great insights. I agree with your movement desires as well.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Great to hear that it resonated with you 🙂

[@okiedokie4663]

A very good lume and waterresitance to cleaning with water and soape do well for me,automatic movement and setting time once a day is essential for me.

[@123Neilob]

I don’t recommend drinking 5 pints in 10 minutes…unless of course it’s a bet with a friend. 😊 Love the channel - it’s a Saturday afternoon tradition to sit down with a coffee & watch the latest vid on tv. 👍🏻

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Can’t actually drink that much. Have never been much of a drinker but it drove the point home 😂😂😂

[@razvan.smarandeanu]

Yes, thank you! I thought i was the only crazy person that wants the date to change at 12:00 sharp on an ideally 5hz movement with around 3days power reserve in a case that is 12.5mm thick at most. I would also argue for an open case back and a COSC certification for any watch above 3k.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Instant change is massively cool 🙂🙂

[@ChrisWalker-fq7kf]

When I started out with mechanical watches it bugged me after a while that every watch I owned had the same Sellita movement. A watch is basically its movement - the rest is just styling (perhaps I feel this way because I'm an engineer). So I felt like I just had the same watch several times over with merely cosmetic differences. I like the in-house (or semi-in-house) trend, I like this proliferation of new designs. Makes it all so much more interesting.

[@koolpep]

JLC has produced more than 1300 different calibers in their history so far…..

[@AeroObsessive]

Great summary. For me at least, if accuracy and antimagnetic properties etc are all really important to you....use a quartz movement.

[@victorylow109]

Great take, as always. Cheers 🎉

[@manbearpigonabike]

Jump hour feature of the caliber 8900 is a really underrated feature that is surprisingly useful. I would love to see it in more 3 hander watches. For me personally, I don't need a GMT for travel, but having the ability to quickly set my watch to local time when traveling is very convenient.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

It's those small things that really elevate a movement and by extension the watch 🙂

[@petrokersta5293]

Seiko has dual impulse escapement. It’s found in GS watches powered by the 9SA series movements. Laurent Ferrier use natural escapement in some of their movements.

[@Anirossa]

I know Seiko is extremely efficent in their manufacturing production, because when a small plastic gear broke on the day date adjustment mechanism on my Seiko with the 4R36 movement during warranty. They just put in a new movement instead of repairing it, as it would save the watchmaker enough minutes for it to be the cheaper alternative, also seemed like they didn't keep spare parts for the movements, just put together movements, as I guess it also makes the entire process at the service center a lot simpler when there isn't storing of movement componants, but rather just the finished movements, and the job is always the same with little troubleshooting needed, marking it require less skilled, and therefor also cheaper workers. As a mech. engineer I'm just fasinated by how Seiko can make these movements to the tolerances they do, to the cost that they do. It's impressive.

[@blaineflack294]

Cocoa plantations along lake Geneva!! lol. I don’t think most people caught that!

[@TrumanBurbankFE]

Kenissi and Tudor are worth it in my view. They managed to make a better movement than the old ETA, with Metas, they are as accurate as Rolex within +2/-2, that matters to me. And they have datejust for a fraction of the price of the bigger brother and even compared to Omega.

[@L233233]

Datejust? You mean the Tudor Royal? That's a Sellita movement.

[@TrumanBurbankFE]

@L233233 No, datejust means the date ticks over at midnight exactly.

[@L233233]

@@TrumanBurbankFE ah, ok

[@giusepperocchi2979]

⁠​⁠@@TrumanBurbankFE The date changes exactly at midnight like every ETA or Sellita ?

[@TrumanBurbankFE]

​@@giusepperocchi2979 No ETA I had back in the day changed exactly at midnight. Not even Omega has mastered that to this day.

[@walden7958]

my 1996 Submariner 14060 runs at +1 per day, no issues at all. I'm not pining for a METAS cert at all.

[@Wuerthi1888]

Great take and the most honest channel for watches on YT... Without all the hype and clickbait of Eric / that Scottish weird lady / Oison etc

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for that. Cheers 🙂🙂🙂

[@1RunnerDad]

Totally agree with your wish list!

[@stefanpeter275]

Once again, a very interesting video, especially because it delves into the details of watch movements, which I really enjoy as a watchmaker-rhabilleur. However, I don't believe that this certification is truly about proving what's possible. We all know that with the capital Rolex has at its disposal, they can manufacture anything. I strongly believe this is more of a political play. Rolex is using Tudor to force Omega to react. Omega undoubtedly sees itself in a different league than Tudor, but since only these Tudor movements have the same certification as Omega, Omega has to respond. And that's precisely what Rolex intends. Rolex is trying to increase the pressure on Omega. Let’s see how Omega will respond to this strategic move; it will certainly be interesting.

[@johanvandersandt8904]

As usual you make a fantastic point. We've reached a plateau on both phones and watch movements. I think its like improving a typewriter. Neat that it could be done but ultimately useless. The future is wearables or things like Neuralink with overlays to visual implants. I saw a video earlier this week where you can have an AI skin to your house and make it look like different things.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Yeah - No wires in my brain, thank you very much. Cool tech, but hard no from here 😂😂

[@johanvandersandt8904]

@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Yeah I am not doing that either but the sheeple will soon enough! Have a fantastic week Mike!

[@clivenaylor]

Another brilliant show. I'm a big fan of no dates as the have cleaner look biz I don't thinck ive ever seen a no date 5hz

[@drjenschn]

Spring drive. Third type of escapement with a magnet breaking a glide-wheel ;) Quartz a kind of escapement, not in the strictest sense, but all a watch has to do is preventing the power source from going flat in an instant... Spring drive to me has an escapement, Quartz is very (much) debatable.

[@affegorilla1299]

I think I need this new aqua terra 41 with the deep black dial. I had it in my hand and it’s just so good ☺️

[@susfu4988]

As always, a well considered opinion Mike. Personally I suspect that in addition to competing with Omega, Tudor went to METAS to compete better with big brother Rolex’s “Superlative Chronometer” standard.

[@rays1495]

Great channel, I always enjoy your content. I’d put serviceability and longevity at the top of things that bring actual value. I don’t need new or more features on something that already works well. I want something that isn’t disposable. When you are paying luxury prices having an heirloom item that can be passed on and serviced by a long established brand should be the value proposition. Otherwise I can get the same thing in a disposable form for much less.

[@petrokersta5293]

The best innovation for mechanical watches would be new superior lubricants. It would increase both efficiency and longevity of movements.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

true

[@dunderhay9169]

Not only should manufacturers stock movement parts for 25 years, they should be forced by law to provide those parts to independent watch repairers.

[@fontyyy]

What? Worldwide? I understand your principles but I cannot agree with you. The very nature of a free market allows manufacturers to withhold anything they want, to set conditions on its sale and to charge whatever they want for that product. We know that for $4000 the Chinese can replicate a 5712 99.5%, 22k gold rotor and free sprung balance included. And that for $150 they can retail any Rolex clone movement. So, the point is not what the parts cost or anything else physical, it's about how you feel. And you feel how you do about the brands that bother you because it means something, because they've made it hard to get. Do I let an independent service my Rolex? Yes. Are there parts inside it aren't gen Rolex? Probably. Is my Rolex guarantee in tact? No. Do I care? Not one jot. Your mileage may vary. A friend of mine had a dead Daytona, now fixed by my man, with a fully cloned Daytona moment and (luckily) his balance bridge and free sprung balance and a few other bits swapped, because we've got them. The complete bill for that fix was under $600, Vs over $15000 from Rolex.

[@NorthernContrarian]

Ironically most car manufacturers are forced by law, depending on country they sell in, to have spare parts for 15-20 years.

[@wolfmoz2232]

Right to repair is very important! #louisrossman

[@wolfmoz2232]

@@fontyyyyou are absolutely right about the free market perspective, when it comes to luxury items like watches. But you should be aware, that your statement has a limits. 1. A core principle of a free markets is, that it actually is „free“ (esp. for essential goods like transportation, communication, utilities etc.), meaning that it is the job of the state to regulate it, to ensure real competition. (No monopolists, no cartels etc.). 2 Another pillar of free market capitalism is the right of full ownership of goods you purchased. This includes not only the „right to repair“ for your own stuff, but also, that there has to be the possibility of competition in the field of repair too. Because you cannot, or better, you do not own anything (in a meaningful way), that needs service, if said service and/or spare parts are solely controlled by only one company. Cheers

[@wolfmoz2232]

@@fontyyyIn luxury items, for example, it is a shame, that the companies hold you hostage with spare parts, caused you only have the choice between devaluing your watch with aftermarket parts or to pay their ransom.

[@99jasonhooper]

As always fantastic video and very informative

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks again!

[@spinaquanable]

Great video as always. I have the same standpoints. So many things are overrated with no real life benefits. Often the simple things can be more enjoyed. Cheers

[@dannysimenauer5745]

If a movement is reliable, has the functionality I want, 70+ hours of power reserve, and can be serviced for decades, then that is all I need. Decoration, in-house made, and water resistance are nice for haute horology, but not required for most collectors.

[@Robert-vw3od]

Great content Mike. METAS was not the strong point for me with the new Tudor GMT, but I am looking for high levels of accuracy if I’m spending over £1500 on a watch -COSC is the minimum level when I’m spending that type of money. Anyone who knows much about watches or not is going to be looking for a certain standard of accuracy and while they are not Swiss I’m sure everybody would be very keen to hold Seiko up as an example of inconsistency in this area. That level of accuracy that we see in many of the prospect models is simply not acceptable if you are going to pay more than about £600. I agree with a few of the other comments about sellita, they need to up things here. On the pro Tudor side for under £4000 You are getting something that is on a par with some more expensive watches, that’s not just necessarily an attempt to kick omega, I’m thinking breitling who have higher prices but don’t offer any anymore. Agree Rolex and a few others were left with limited options by ETA.

[@willh.2155]

Quite a labored discussion but if I have to summarize in one sentence: metas is just a marketing scam that most of us don’t need and oh by the way I am right. 💪 by the same token none of us need a watch let alone mechanical. Good content nonetheless, not for your stance but rather the reasoning and knowledge behind. Thanks

[@BRMCaptChaos]

Time matters in some environments more than others. Take the CW Sandhurst in the military environment. COSC matters because fire support timing matters within seconds. Yes we get a “mickey” time update off the GPS in orders groups (synchronise watches) but having a reasonable accuracy standard matters and can be worth it. If they made the Sandhurst in a larger dial option, it’s a fine field and military style watch where one wants capability at a value point. Sadly, as it stands it’s 38mm.

[@johnd-xd9sn]

great content as always. Not sure I care whether any watch is certified by any outside group for accuracy or durability. Watches are jewelry and not much more - I appreciate their technical accuracy and horological advancements in this arena but in reality I own plenty of watches with no certification from COSC or METAS or anyone for that matter...and they work just fine (even the least accurate of them). Most modern humans dont use their wristwatch for navigating the cadence of their day...its decorative and a personal fashion statement. period. Nobody wearing a Rolex at +/-2 sec/day would even notice if it were actually +/-3 sec/day or even +/-5 sec/day. So why does this matter to watch enthusiasts...maybe its just one more "credential" which they believe differentiates their expensive wrist jewelry from someone else's and makes them feel as if their purchase was somehow significantly wiser. This hobby is full of the narcissism of small differences and owning a certification somehow translates to "I bought wisely....you didnt". Brands do the same - trying to place themselves in a position where consumers feel the product warrants merit based on a long list of attributes...where competitors products just dont measure up...as you can see by this certification right here...see: COSC...METAS....blah blah blah. Sales gimmick just as much as product quality validation.

[@odvdigitalimaging]

Hi. Can you make a video about buying watches under retail or used. I hear in several of your videos that you talk about buying under retail. What are good places to buy under retail, and are you talking about used or gray market. Takk så mye.

[@clintonshiells3095]

What about the GS 9SA5 dual impulse escapement? On another note, I found your discussion of real world magnetism levels interesting.

[@CKshouta]

Automatics with thinner than 11mm cases -> Seiko Lordmatic already did that, with many at 9mm and that is with the raised acrylic box crystal. Chronograph less than 12.5mm thick -> Seiko 7015 did that too, and it's an automatic flyback. No minutes counter though. 10 year service interval for 5hz movements-> if we are being stringent, not possible at any hz because gaskets and oils are not good yet. However if the standard is "having serviceable accuracy and no need for replacement parts", then the Seiko Lord Marvel does that - many examples from the 70s went 50 years without service and only needed one when you want to use it today, sometimes with daily rate < 10s and >250 amplitude even before said service. The real question to ask IMHO, is "Why isn't Seiko bringing back any of the above"?