The futures of Christopher Ward, San Martin, Underdog and more

[@c11235]

You have great commentary. And you're never selling anything. You're wonderful. Appreciate this channel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[@event4216]

And speaking style of a man who knows what he is onto and values his time and time of his listeners.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I do just try to share my own nerdy overthunk thoughts. If I ever do sell something it'll be needlessly complicated, just like my videos 😂😂😂

[@rjames7941]

Absolutely nailed the San Martin piece. Emotion and perception are everything when it comes to non essential items. Thanks as always for your calm and candid watch wisdoms. Cheers.

[@borassictime918]

Mike said >$4k and I’d agree. Rolex will be fine. Omega will be fine. The holy trinity will be fine. The very strongest brands with alot of brand equity will be fine. But…if I were Hamilton, Tissot, Certina, Mido, Baume & Mercier, even Seiko, I’d be worried. Ironic that Seiko is a big supplier to the Chinese brands. Microbrands are squeezing these same Swiss brands from the other direction. There aren’t enough ‘emotional’ customers out there to sustain them all.

[@rjames7941]

Well said and agree. Certainly a lot of non emotional watch buyers out there as well, though I think Casio and Timex have that market pretty well covered.

[@timandrews6828]

I got a different vibe on his San Martin analysis. He recounted many negative points about San Martin, just as he did in is prior video that touched on them. He exaggerated the truth in saying that they really just make homages and an original design every now and then. The reality is probably closer to 50/50 on their recent releases. Then there was the point about things in China really not being 90% cheaper to produce. I'm not sure where he was going with that....was he suggesting they are artificially cheap and will go up? Anyways, a 100% negative take wrapped up with "they will be around in 10 years, but they won't be dominating the world." None of the brands that he mentioned will be dominating the world. Neither will Tissot, or Hamilton or Stowa, or any other less expensive brand. Anyways, the current state is that San Martin makes interesting design, in the same vein as dozens of other microbrands, and they are a little bit cheaper. That $500 microbrand with a nice bright textured dial will be $300 from San Martin....I don't see the deal.

[@GEMSofGOD_com]

SM is s--t.

[@Lewatchman]

@@timandrews6828 Their original designs look like ass. Their popular gmt that came out recently is a GS homage. They're popping out a new design every month, quality is not going to be good

[@neil12011]

Regarding Christopher Ward, the Trident C600 was my first “nice” watch purchase. My Dad had one, and was a successful businessman, so I wanted to emulate him. Now, I honestly like the brand for many reasons. I truly think they tick “most” of the boxes I want from a quality watch. At the price point, I can own several examples and still have some room for Omegas, Rolex, etc. I’ve always gotten compliments on my CW’s. To me, they’re kind of the “sleeper” brand, and I’ve always gravitated towards their aesthetics as well.

[@samspina3249]

CW was also my first ‘nice watch’ purchase… I had been searching forever for something around $1500 that ticked all the boxes and decided on a C60 trident pro. The VP of the company I work for wears a new C60 Trident GMT and I suspect that it was his first ‘nice watch’ purchase as well. I commented on it to him and found out that the owner’s son and head sales guy recently got a Bel Canto. CW is going places for sure. I truly believe that their new lineup, minus their ok movements, is far superior in every other aspect to what Tudor is putting out.

[@neil12011]

@ That’s awesome! My CEO noticed my C60 concept and come to find out he also has one along with a large CW collection. He had Moser, Omega, Rolex, A. Lange, etc, so he knows his stuff. To echo your point, I agree, especially with the Bel Canto, they are definitely headed upwards

[@theWaltVegas]

Great analysis, Mike. Thanks for the second video this week. One of the things that has held me back from buying a Formex or a Christopher Ward is not being able to put it on my wrist and then fall in love with it. That's a limiting factor to that business model.

[@Gawriify]

Good point. I love the look of the CW, but with no option to put it on my wrist and look at it and see how it feels, I don't want to drop $4000+ on bel canto. At this range I can get Omega and such on the secondary market. I can go to a dozen of places that sell Omega and try it on. So, if they are trying to put themselves into the luxury brand category they have to have presence in major cities such as NYC or Vegas or something. I am not talking about ADs... I am talking about a factory store if they do not want to have ADs.

[@gmichaelhall]

Spot on ,Vegas. I hovered around the notion of a CW but, finally saw someone actually wearing the exact watch and was so happy I didn’t make that purchase. Hype is truly an understatement regarding this brand, imo. The Formex has long intrigued me, I love their backstory and their watches. I’m much more likely to punt on a Formex for exactly the same reason I considered the CW but am far more confident about gelling with it because of its history quality and status hierarchy. In 2024 and beyond, I don’t want to seen or caught dead wearing a Rolex and to the extent that I own 3 Panerai and have not worn any of them all year. I could say it’s because the circumstance to wear them hasn’t presented itself, but in truth I just don’t want to be perceived in that manner currently. Formex to me communicates my passion for watches and showcases my lack of concern for what any other thinks about my chosen timepiece. To me, the Formex would be the more interesting conversation if I did get a question about my watch choice, that person asking is more likely to be more interesting to me than someone eyeing off a Rolex, those folks aren’t interesting to me, they are more a type. Many options to sublimely uniquely stand out and blend in at the same time. ✌️

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

It's a fair point. There are brands that I won't ever buy because my exposure to them is limited and despite a 30 return right I just don't enjoy that approach to buying something that expensive. 😀

[@bertholdbach4959]

I just appreciate the fact that you change the Gundams/Transfomers in yout backround from time to time. Youre a man of detail, I respect that.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

A little change is often a good thing 😀

[@L233233]

I think you missed the biggest risks for Studio Underdog: movements. They lost access to the Chinese ST-1901, so now they have to go with much more expensive Sellita chronograph movements. That's at least part of the reason for their price hike from €540 to €1800 with their latest release. At €540, you might be tempted to get that cute pizza novelty watch. At €1800? Probably less so. At those prices, the hype might end much sooner, especially since their watches don't look and feel like €1800 watches.

[@jeijeigeil]

Saw the same and even as I like the design its a bit too loud and new price level isnt for shits and giggles ballpark

[@rowluxillusion5235]

I agree the price jump has really killed the brand for me. What was the reason they lost access to the ST1901 I wasn’t aware of that.

[@L233233]

@@rowluxillusion5235 Sea-Gull has decided to exclusively sell their chrono movements in quantities of at least 10,000 units, which cuts out pretty much all microbrands. As to why they did this, I dont know.

[@killsbugsfastreallfast]

Price increase by SU has been noticed by many. For me it’s a no.

[@KC-bv9kf]

@@rowluxillusion5235seagull will only sell to high volume buyers. I can’t remember exactly but the number 10,000/y popped up

[@hangrimas]

Interesting episode, as always. The only comment I would make is that, as a consumer, I am not that interested in the future of a brand. I own Omega's, Longines, Maurice Lacroixs, Mido's etc. But recently I bought a San Martin. I enjoy it as much as previous higher-end purchases. The search for a grail watch (which collectors often engage in) is essentially a pointless activity.

[@watchman8817]

I think you're right. I've gotten my grail many times. When achieved, it seems less holy, less attractive, and eventually becomes boring and then you sell. A great reason to make Rolexes your grails. At least you don't lose a ton when you sell the damn thing. Anyone want to buy my 2022 Pepsi on Oyster? LOL. Nah, not selling that yet. With Trump in office I think prices will rise again for a while.

[@mcy1122]

Yet another insightful video. The level of analysis and rigor in Mike’s videos are simply unrivaled in the watch channels I’ve seen. Thanks for the great content!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Just trying to overthink on something fundamentally unimportant - Jewellery that ticks 😂

[@jorgsofi]

Hi, Mike. Can you please do some videos on quartz watches. Thank you.

[@fenepi]

2 Mike videos in a week = a good week Hope you're keeping well, Mike! Thanks for the great content

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

A rarity - I don't do a lot of detailed reviews. It's not my strength, but it is fun to try 😀

[@CharlesChiu]

I think San Martin is really helpful for me to use as a bottom line reference for comparing watch price points. The latest San Martin (JianZhan) gives you so much for under $500. They've opted for thinner, better Miyota movement with a new case to match. Multiple steel finishing all over. The dial inspired by something uniquely cultural Chinese. The bracelet is solid, chamfered with quick adjust. Linkage gaps are extremely tight. If the Swiss brands want to charge more, the physical quality of the watch should at least match that.

[@arnaudgeline6263]

Since I discovered San Martin, I realize that famous watch brands are ripping us off. I wanted to buy a Seiko Présage and a Tissot Lelocle, I was disgusted by their low-end finish even though they cost 200/300% of the price of an SM

[@sluggingbread]

Inflated prices are no fun...always make the smart choice for your wallet and your interests. I learned early on not to follow the crowd.

[@suratjamtangan]

Most likely my San Martin Jian Zhan will arrive this week, my first watch from China brand 😃✌️

[@SergioSanto02]

I've watched hundreds of hours of well established watch KZbinrs, but this one blows everything out of the water with such ease! I'm in awe... You have my respect, admiration and hunger for more high quality, analytical and wonderful content from yourself, good sir!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Very kind of you - really appreciated 😀😀😀

[@FrançoisM-o8p]

Hello Mike. Thank you sooo much for your videos. In this age of hyper communication, I'm usually on the side of the silent observers, and I very rarely comment on anything, but you deserve that I overcome my shyness to congratulate you. It's been something like a year that I'm following what you're doing around this little hobby of ours of collecting watches, and each time you publish a new video, I find the time to see it. Keep up being who you are : smart and humble, transparent and open to contradiction. Wish you the best in what you're doing!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching and thanks for sharing. Appreciated 😀😀😀

[@dannysimenauer5745]

The Christopher Ward Bel Canto caught my attention, but the current line up of purple, sky blue, and black dials did nothing for me. Then in November, CW launched the second generation of the Bell Canto with new colors and guiochet dials and I became a customer! The aventurine moon watch is also a beautiful model for future purchase.

[@carlospagi]

I'm a fairly recent subscriber to your channel but you've quickly became one of my favourites. I love your understated wisdom and pragmatism, your relaxed delivery and the total lack of hype or BS. During your last installation I thought to myself how wonderfully interesting it would be to have you and ID Guy in the same room, is that ever possible? Thanks a lot Mike, keep 'em coming! :)

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching. ID guy is one of my favorites so that's appreciated 😀

[@andreaiacolina]

Your analysis are always super interesting 🔝

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you like them 😀

[@michaelwalters2390]

Great video as usual Mike..I actually think CW’s strategy with the 12, Bel Canto, Super Compressor and Moon-phase is hugely impressive in terms of innovation, creating brand desire and in accelerating a transition beyond the value space. I think their brand evolution and marketing is excellent, it’s almost a best practice case study of how to move a brand up market. I predict a successful future.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

CW are doing some cool stuff. It's just a fact 😀😀

[@mdbowman78]

Two bangers in a week, nice work 👌

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Kind of you ❤️

[@hemantishwaran5741]

Formex is awesome. Their forged carbon Leggera is beautiful and super comfortable. Formex leads the field in terms of innovation especially when it comes to materials and micro adjustment.

[@L233233]

I love my Leggera. Such a great and overlooked watch. I got the Electric Blue version and if it wasn't so expensive, I'd also get the new Space Gold version. Maybe my most favorite watch.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Have you seen the new GMT/Dual time? What do you think of it?

[@L233233]

@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch I'm completely flabbergasted by it. It's big, it's ugly, it's expensive. A pusher to change the hours, while cool, is a solution to a problem nobody had. Design-wise it's complete overkill, a wild mix of forms and numbers. It's just so busy. The small pointer date is particularly bad when it comes to adding unneeded clutter. It's also too thick, probably because of the movement with the added module. The Miyota 9075 would have been a better choice but then it wouldn't be "Swiss Made". The new Powermatic GMTs are Swatch Group only. I like Formex, I own an Essence 39 and a Leggera but if I were in the market for a GMT at that price point, I'd rather get the Porsche Design 1919 Globetimer UTC from the secondary market.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Then you and I think the same. From a technical perspective, I think it's really impressive but aesthetically I'm not a huge fan - on the contrary unfortunately.

[@brianskehan6388]

Huge fan of your channel. Please keep the content coming. Cheers from Boston, Ma

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Cheers to you too sir 😀

[@snuffthisrooster7043]

I have to admit, as a guy likes history and heritage; I do really lean towards older established brands like Hamilton, Longines, Omega etc. I see mechanical watches as an inherently old fashioned thing so buying one from a really new brand for me seems paradoxical.

[@samm827]

I just discovered your channel and I have to say I love your calm, direct demeanor and your videos are so informational. I have champagne tastes in watches but a beer budget however I still love watching and learning about the full spectrum of watch collecting. You’ve just gained a new subscriber!

[@watchman8817]

I just had a great time reading all the comments and adding my 2 cents worth. Lots of fun. Thanks!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you enjoyed it 😀😀😀

[@jasoncole8076]

Love the content,Mike. I look forward to Saturday mornings in the US when I can watch your new videos. I own the blue dial perception from one and I absolutely love it. I’m so glad that you referenced the brand here. The hand turned guilloche dial is absolutely stunning and an incredible bargain at this price point in my opinion. I’d love to hear you do a deeper dive into the watch.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I am very close to ordering a perception myself for the same reason.... 😀

[@samnova450]

Thank you for the great feedback. I been interested in getting a CW watch, but concerned their prices are going up with each new release. Not being an expert, this might be the norm.

[@wongjefx980]

I had a list with Formex Essence 39, Baltic HMS…in the end bought three Chinese factory brand watches …added up to under $500 for titanium, sapphire, NH movements.

[@lukthere2]

Which ones? I bought a steeldive tuna himage and for 80€ it is amazing.

[@stillben]

Please itemise for the brothers

[@wongjefx980]

I did Boderry Voyager, then Landmaster field watch and finally the Admiral Diver GMT. The GMT, I got the model that takes design styles from Rolex Explorer II, Tudor in a titanium, sapphire diver with GMT complication for $150…couldn’t resist the value proposition.

[@STK11-z9b]

Your analysis of anOrdain may indeed be correct, however I think they may have realised this and in the process introduced their Fabrik range which are available immediately. Those dials are made in Germany and the watches equipped with LJP movements are equally attractive and may be able to bridge the gap between enamel manufacturing delay and cash flow in between. Their watches are very well made and hopefully they will be able to survive for long.

[@watchman8817]

Interesting. I'm convinced I need to know more about this brand and the people behind it.

[@tiffer67]

The Fabrik range has some very nice watches, great dial colours etc. The range isn't close to the beauty of the fume dials or the Model 3 though, this range is very much the B team of the club so to speak. Only my opinion, if the Fabrik speaks to you then get one absolutely :)

[@STK11-z9b]

⁠​⁠@@tiffer67Oh yes I completely agree with you. The Fabrik is indeed the B team. They cannot be compared to the fume dials but leaving that aside are well made watches.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

It's possible you are right. At the end of the day, I'm doing an armchair analysis without the luxury of seeing their business results or talking to their CEO or doing a market analysis. It is very much outside in, but I do stand by the statement that it is a "risk". Plus - it's fun to think about these kinds of things and your perspective makes the discussion even more interesting😀😀

[@Dunkelheit_Schwarz]

I agree with everything you said. Great content, really like your channel! I also wanted to add that microbrands and Chinese watches became possible and popular only because Seiko, Miyota (Citizen), Epson (so Seiko again), and Sellita started producing and selling movements to these companies. These production companies make huge profits from every microbrand selling their watches, not to mention that they can disrupt the whole microbrand industry by simply ceasing their movement production. Many higher-end microbrands are nothing without Sellita, and Aliexpress brands would have never become that popular without Seiko and Citizen movements. So, people can do all sorts of things with macroshots of case finishings and prasing San Martin for their job (and they deserve credit) and talk shite about Seiko's prices, but all of those San MArtin miracles are only possible because Seiko allowed it.

[@jpdemer5]

Any manufacturer that tries to "disrupt" the microbrand industry will earn the deepest gratitude of the other makers. It isn't like ETA in 2012.

[@Dunkelheit_Schwarz]

@ what are these other makers? There are 3 major movement manufacturers: Seiko, Citizen, and Sellita. They typically occupy different price points. People are less likely to buy PT5000 or other Chinese copies over a Seiko NH35. I’m not saying that micro brands would cease to exist then, but it will definitely have an impact on the microbrand industry.

[@DocMulholland]

Watching this was time well spent, thank you Mike! 👍

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching 😀😀😀

[@TheRunningManZ]

Great vid! I feel like watch companies need a “hero” product that they become famous for which helps them create an emotional response with the watch community. Some brands have many, some are famous for a movement. For me Christopher Ward has done that with the Bel Canto, I like it, I see one in a picture and I smile. It has massively improved my perception of their brand. I still haven’t bought one yet, I did order the A Morgan red one and then something unexpected came up and I had to cancel before it arrived. I feel Christopher Ward are going to do well in the space occupied by Oris. A little below Tudor price point. They offer interesting watches, I quite like the logo since it stopped being the “name on dial” myself. I think it works personally. All the Swiss brands from Tag/Tudor to Omega/Rolex and above are going ever vertical and they are pricing people out of ownership. An Omega Speedmaster Hesalite is around double the price it was 6 years ago at retail. When it was £3300 it left less space for brands like CW and Oris to play with. Now they have more room.

[@vvvhhhhhbb]

Once again mate, an absolutely brilliant insightful view. Until we all finally just admit that we love watches and want others to notice our watches, watch brands in the higher end will always be there.

[@robertrocha597]

This was a great insight but I am not sure it is 100% correct. The whole era of mircobrands is going to be defined in finding the new Rolex. Christopher Ward, Monta, Lorier, Baltic to name a few are defining the market with their designs and pricing. People love to talk about Rolex today but forget there was a day where no one wanted to buy one either. While each established brand has found their niches in the market we forget there are a long list of brands that have vanished when Rolex, Breitling, Timex etc were established.

[@ScaleTune]

I enjoy your insights so much! It helps so much understanding this weird industry and the context in which it lives. Thank you for your hard work

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

You're so welcome 😀😀

[@gobluerob212]

Another great one, thank you. I think the same people arguing that Chinese homage watches will take over the world are the same people in the 80's who said Japanese watches will control the watch universe post quartz crisis. You're spot on, will there always be a place for Chinese brands, yes, but people will always want an Omega or a Rolex. I think the quartz crisis of our time is the Apple watch. Its a disruptor but the major houses hopefully learned about to handle a crisis. Only if watches fall into a totally utilitarian space will chinese brands dominate the cost/quality/value game.

[@stevenmunizich9366]

Thanks for the thoughtful commentary. I don’t own or have any plans to buy any of these brands yet, but I always learn something about the watch business from your videos.

[@allanespinosa8941]

Always logical, well informed and cerebral. Very enjoyable!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Happy to hear it 😀😀

[@mornchornay5417]

One of very few watch channels which do not make us feel like we need a new watch after watching.. Mainly, about comments, insightful analysis, and personal perspectives!! More like an edutainment, rather than commercial vdo.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Sounds expensive in the long run. I'll stop immediately 😀

[@saodavi6267]

Christopher Ward and Formex are the only ones in the list making a high quality bracelet and clasp. To me, that's an indicator of potential brand longevity. They're looking beyond the case and placing a focus on the entire watch. Brands without solid bracelet offerings strike me as not being serious about the business (exception: Nomos).

[@spex7503]

I accept and am comfortable with the fact that I engage with the watch industry as an enthusiast rather than an investor or brand/market analyst. I simply don't have the energy to care about a brand's future if I like the product now. Incidentally, it also validates my lack of concern for in-house movements (since it doesn't matter if a brand exists in 10 years time if the movement will be serviceable by any watchmaker I go to).

[@markdavis911time]

Another great video Mike - thank you! Everyone has their own take but personally Im gravitating more towards Micro brands these days. I bought into Rolex in the 80's, because a) I secured employment at an AD and b) I genuinely liked the product and history but ultimately they became too bling for me - like the original G-Wagon, morphing into the modern G-Class. I moved to Tudor, for a more practical tool watch feel but lots of people still see them as derivative and a poor man's Rolex - unfairly in my view and I like some of their latest models. Right now I'm buying less expensive watches from microbrands because I find they tend to have more personality and often represent better value for money - esp in the sub £4k sector. My recent purchases have been from brands such as Squale and Formex. The family oriented feel of both companies, speaks more to my enthusiast nature and I'm far happier supporting them, rather than lining the pockets of a faceless corporation. Just my viewpoint and others may see it differently 🙂

[@Robert-vw3od]

Best watch content on KZbin. That’s one only thing I’m certain about.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Kind of you, thanks 😀

[@landonmatthew]

great takes. really enjoying your content and glad to see the channel growing.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching 😀😀😀

[@makermark67]

Always love your insight and opinions. Very much enjoy your channel. Thank you.

[@bruceballai]

Fabulous analysis. Watching your videos is every bit as valuable as studying for an MBA. The only point I would add is that all of what is predicted here is likely to take place in a weak global economy with reduced international trade and increasing tariffs.

[@watchman8817]

Yeah, although my MBA is so old it may not be valid any longer, I love the case study approach. Very satisfying.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks. It's the way I like to approach things. It's a little bit "overthunk" sometimes but it's just watches so as far as I'm concerned there's no harm done. I won't be making guesses about the global economy though 😂😂

[@ttothec]

Quality analysis, as always. Thanks.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching as always 🙂🙂

[@JimWestrich]

Great analysis! I think it's fair to say that a lot of ppl got into watches around covid.. adding 7 or so years to the first service interval, I wonder how customer experience with such microbrands will perhaps change in a couple of years from now

[@JimWestrich]

.. when thousands of watches come back to their manufacturer at roughly the same time

[@TruTube.1.]

PURE KNOWLEDGE. REAL WORLD PERSPECTIVE. MIKE KNOWS THE MARKET MAJORITY. This episode hits home to allot watch owners and future watch collectors. Never Have I ever heard anyone put out that point of view on how the Global Watch market can and will be. A solid point about Chinese Homages. China has been a Massive Powerhouse when it comes to production on anything conceivable these days. Today's people cringe at anything "made in China" , it's hilarious how these people don't even pause to think where their "smart" wearables, laptops and iPhones come from. Thank you MIKE! Your Real World Wisdom through a Lifetime of Experience speaks volumes.

[@aekula5079]

I’ve been wearing my CW twelve for the past month. I’m delighted with it. It’s extremely comfortable, especially thanks to the micro adjustment mechanism in the bracelet, which made all the difference for me.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Good to hear. I have one myself and quite like it too 😀😀

[@darrylwalker1867]

New to this channel. Rapidly becoming a favourite.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Welcome aboard 😀

[@bigfun17]

An interesting video Mike. I think the main point for a lot of these brands is at 03:06 - not many people want a CW because it's a CW, same for Formex and in different ways the same applies to the other brands. I feel these 2 brands will continue on a flatter trajectory in terms of growth unless they can get their watches in stores. Hands on with a watch is much more of a clincher and when spending in this budget, especially with the CW 'higher' models. San Martin fills a space in the watch world - if your budget is $300 and you want an automatic (yes, I know there are automatics and then there are automatics but there is that segment of buyers who don't want to touch the quartz route) they are a solid option but they are what they are; they'll continue with homage efforts with re-worked colours and sometimes something a bit more original but everyone in to watches knows what SM are and I don't see that changing. Put it this way, no one will spend £1000 on a San Martin for 2 reasons - 1. it is a budget brand and isn't going to lose that label. 2. If, hypothetically of course, SM made a $1000 watch the difference in product between one of their $250 models and a $1000 model could not be much of a jump to warrant that increase and would become a wash-out. Studio Underdog and AnOrdain are niche brands. I get what AnOrdain offer, it's not for me but they are a brand you want to see offering something different but also of good quality. Perhaps they need a few more options in the collection to keep things ticking alongside the enamel offerings. SU is similar in that their designs are unique to a degree but the hardware is average. If they offered the same designs with better movements etc to make a bit more on each watch I don't think anywhere near as many people would take them up on that offer, the longevity just isn't there for me and the retail model is also questionable, waiting for bi-annual drops soon becomes a negative and will turn people away over time too.

[@uncleremus64]

I purchased my first two micro brand watches in 2024. A Zelos Blacktip and a Nudus Sector Sport. Love them both.

[@zambonidriver42]

I’m peripherally attached to a manufacturing entity, and I can tell you cost reductions on BOM are extremely important. The amount of vendor and supplier management I experience was shocking. Pennies per part matter. Manufacturers are always cultivating secondary and tertiary suppliers, and using them against each other to get the lowest costs. BOM matters. Maximizing profit matters.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

That was very much my point on CW as an example. 😀

[@arashfarsayad3574]

An amazing analysis as always 👏 I wish you had a marketing channel as well

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I'm sticking to watches - sorry 😂😂

[@ogramail]

I still feel the great emotion I got when I succeed to buy the Christopher Ward Bel Canto azzuro, day one of its launch. It was like getting access to a kind of UFO high-end piece of horology and the real start of CW journey (though I had already owned a C65 Sandhurst or a C63 Aquitaine bronze). You are right: it will all about emotion and future success stories. Thank you for your very interesting video (as always!)

[@heronwatchco.6870]

Your full of knowledge Mike, that was a very interesting video and very well articulated. Looking forward to more of these! Cheers 🍻

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

and cheers to you too 😀😀

[@kaunas88]

San Martin is the value brand; the expensive watches are the anti-value brands. The higher the cost for a watch goes, the less objective value customers get (excluding intangibles such as snobbery, name recognition, etc.)

[@evanc1974]

Great video Mike. I have a few, for me, status watches (Omega & Breitling), a few homage watches (San Martin & Baltany), and a few beater watches (Seiko & Casio). I also just ordered a watch from a microbrand (Ginault). I think it all comes down to an individuals personality. If they want people to be impressed with the watch on their wrist, the homage, micros, and beaters will never be sufficient. If they want watches with different styles and features, having a mix of all 4 types can fit into ones collection. Thank you again for your great and honest content.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

I try to do something worth watching and thank you for doing so 😀😀

[@davidfulginiti5985]

Thanks, Mike---hope you’re wearing a 300 m diver when you take these deep dives! Keeping them coming.

[@Joseph-gv]

Great video as always Mike!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

thanks 😀😀😀

[@BenKurth]

Out of all the brands mentioned the only one that I have invested in, thus far, is Christopher Ward. In the form of a c63 Sealander GMT. I look at CW as filling the gap that was once occupied by Tudor. A good quality GADA watch that a everyday working man or woman can more easily afford. I can comfortably afford a good quality $2k-$2.5k watch. But doubling that to $4k-$5k is a bridge too far. I agree. If CW can now begin to market its offerings with very real passion, then it’ll be around for quite a long time to come.

[@TimRobertsen]

You're videos are so chill. Perfect for getting a cup of coffee or tea and just relax:)

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Some might say "sleep inducing" 😂

[@hammalamiri12]

Mike I think your clothing brands are even better than your watch choices. Loving the content as usual.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

lol. Thanks 😀😀

[@gyges5495]

Excellent video - I agree about Christopher Ward, just bought the C65 Aquitaine Bronze - I just love the look of it, but they need to move out of the ‘value’ niche

[@cybermortal1983]

I think you hit the nail on the head with Christopher Ward. I lookat them often and always think, wow this looks like a great watch for the price, but they never really get high on my list of watches I might buy next because they don't really make me feel anything.

[@jaysterling26]

I got a CW63 36mm- waited for it in a sale ( during which prices increased!) . I got a Hamilton train 34mm ( light blue dial), also with a discount ( off rrp). Luckily I got a fit with the H's butterfly clasp. I enjoy this watch much more than the CW , which I regard as more 'sturdy' than 'dressy'. Also , the H10 inside yhe Jazzmaster is anti magnetic, which ticks ( unnecessary?) box for me.

[@alanwayte432]

I currently own two CW and am delighted with quality

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Good to hear it 😀😀

[@Memfys]

Ha! I'm one of those guys that wanted a CW simply because I loved one of their models. In my case, it was a black bezel white dial Trident. I loved that watch but unfortunately, It was either too big at 43 mm or too small at 38 mm for me. By the time the 40 mm models came I had already moved on in my watch journey. Anyway, great video as always. Cheers.

[@Greggieboy76]

Superb video!! Loved the insights!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thank you 😀😀😀

[@guyplay]

First here. Love all your videos and knowledge

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

First prize to you then! Thanks for watching 🙂🙂

[@jpdemer5]

If anOrdain is profitable now, they'll remain so in the future. There is no real competition for what they offer, and demand will exceed supply for as long as their production methods remain the same. That's a perfectly viable business model, IMO. World domination isn't a mandatory goal for a business to be successful. Grand Seiko seems to do fine with very little marketing. For however long people continue to walk into retail jewelers' shops, they'll see the product - and it sells itself. I'd love to know what fraction of US and EU owners had never heard of the brand until the day they bought one! (anOrdain could do the same, if they had the manufacturing capacity.)

[@tiffer67]

AnOrdain aren't profitable just now, or at least they weren't, in the last set of accounts that's for the Y/E 30Jun 2023. There was no provision for corporation tax to be paid, meaning they didn't make any profit.

[@shj2000]

Again, spot on analysis. Good stuff.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@donaldspaulding6973]

I love this channel!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

yay! ❤️

[@LagerPetrol409]

Great video and content, absolutely spot on with your perception of the Brands mentioned. Lot's of valid analysis and conclusions. Totally agree 👍

[@tiffer67]

Mike, I think I may already have commented on AnOrdain in another of your uploads. AnOrdain are based in my home town of Glasgow. I'm an owner of 2 of their watches. As such, I've been given a tour of their workshop & met their lovely people within the business. I desperately want them to be a success. That said, I 100% agree with your take on their longer term sustainability. On a good week they'll produce 15 perfect enamel dials. I believe their average is around 12. I've seen the buckets full of imperfect dials on the floor of their workshop & it's incredibly frustrating that the success ratio can't be higher. Their watches are stunning & deserve a bigger stage than they are currently at. I hope I'm wrong but it's going to be incredibly difficult for them to break the glass ceiling they're under currently.

[@watchman8817]

If you love business, the AnOrdain problems are classic and certainly solvable. Very intriguing. I'd agree that they are worth saving. Moving a few levers might do it. I'd consider price increases, output would need to at least double. Six hundred watches a year? Wow, that's rarity for sure. A five year wait? I'll keep moving or go to eBay to find one. That has got to be fixed. There will always be "good" reasons why the problems exist. To think outside the box, break through and feel the victory is what great business folks do for a living. I think I'll visit them too. Very curious.

[@tiffer67]

@@watchman8817 Their watches have seen substantial price increases over the last 2-3 years. I received a Model 2 in August this year. When I joined the waiting list you could buy the watch for less than £1,000. By the time it came for me to pay for the watch in March this year the price had jumped to £2,550. 5 year waiting list & then another 6 months from payment until you receive the watch. Patience is certainly a virtue required on this journey :)

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for the perspective. I remember your comment. If they had a waiting list and were already status wise and size wise like Rolex I would not be worried for them, but here we're dealing with something relatively niche. If you can't scale, people lose interest. It would be interesting to see how many people drop out of the waiting list 😀

[@AVillaBeats]

I'm a big fan of Christopher Ward and Formex...great watches! And I just purchased my first San Martin... an inexpensive but well-made watch.

[@TheRando1111]

Great review. I have a San Martin snd and a Christopher Ward that I wear a lot. But my latest best is a Lanier Hyperion 2. Really love it!

[@gvnnz]

This is a great channel. Mike, I love your well-informed and yet down-to-earth, no-nonsense approach. Understandably, you usually refer to some of the brands you are clearly more interested in (CW as “the” microbrand is a case in point). I would love to watch a video like “10 brands rated out of my comfort zone” where we can have your two cents on some (reasonably well-known/successful) brands you very rarely if ever refer to, e.g. Chopard, Vulcain, Frederique Constant [I know, I know..] - or even some of the microbrands that are massively investing in online marketing and seem to have created a little buzz lately (e.g. KUOE). Of course without rating every single issue but just to explain away why they are not so interesting in your mind or why to group them with your personal favorites. Thank you, keep up the good work and cheers!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks - I'll try to do my best at least and thanks for taking the time to leave a comment 😀

[@delonteeast7955]

Awesome Wing Zero Custom at the back! 😉

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

You know it!

[@sssf55]

I strongly disagree with the San Martin take. I think they'll absolutely dominate the lower end of the market because of just how good they are at Manufacturing. Currently, the latest San Martin watches are built better than most of Christopher Ward's offering at 1/4 the price. Original designs aren't a huge limiting factor in R&D, and San Martin are arguable 1 or 2 designs away from a smash hit.

[@douglasr9455]

Thanks for another master class in business.👍

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Or an old mans overthought ramblings 😀

[@WaterJake]

One other argument that I think could limit Studio Underd0g's (and many other microbrands) futures are that they are creator driven. This is also a strength, but it means that when that creator moves on to something else or retires, the brand ceases to exist, or at the very least ceases its creative development.

[@ericreither3666]

As some of you may know, Marc at Long Island Watch recently posted a video that complained about watch “reviews” that, in reality, are thinly veiled advertisements. That got me to thinking: What if we, the watch enthusiast community, created a list of content creators-separated by things like genre, trustworthiness, etc. Should such a ranking ever be developed, this channel would be at the top of the list - pure class, God Tier, or whatever you want to call it. I have learned a great deal from this channel, and I never feel as though there’s some kind of hustle. There’s no hype, no impulse to buy anything, just the sharing of knowledge with a community that cares.

[@fhujf]

Everybody has a list like that already, we're just not daft enough to go public with it and possibly be doxxed by haters lol. Some opinions are best kept to yourself.

[@typebflieger]

Why do you even care? Just study the images in the videos and use your eyes, brain, and heart. It baffles me that any viewer would EVER count on the opinions of a reviewer when their own instincts and preferences weigh much more heavily in the watch buying process.

[@ericreither3666]

@@typebflieger The point is they DO care, especially when just starting out in the hobby. It would be great if someone in the enthusiast community would simply make a list of trustworthy voices on KZbin or other platforms. Perhaps it would be unwise to call out anyone as a shill - fair enough, I get that point - but it would be nice to have a resource that offers a “stamp of approval” of sorts. This channel, Chronoglide, You’reTerrific - just a few examples.

[@ericreither3666]

@@fhujf Excellent point. Sad to think that anyone would be targeted for sharing an opinion about various reviewers - but quite possibly true, given that $$$ is involved.

[@chris9650]

Funny watching them coming out trying to say they have no bias despite being sent things for free.

[@Joeybanananas]

Excellent breakdown of the market dynamics

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks

[@Joeybanananas]

@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch No problem. Im a weirdo that genuinely enjoys listening to and learning about different business strategies and market dynamics. I like that with anything, but I also like watches so I really enjoy those discussions when it comes to watches.

[@TheWatchConcierge]

Nice analysis!

[@dperreno]

As an owner of both a wonderful San Martin homage and a Zenith Chronomaster, I completely agree with your assessment of San Martin. I love my San Martin, but in a much different way than I love my Zenith.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Bingo 😀😀😀😀

[@klausnielsen7102]

You are so right with regard to color! We have a saying in my line of business “black speakers never die” …

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

My wife dies a little death every time she sees my big black speakers with exposed tweeter and just wishes I'd buy Bang & Olufsen because "they look pretty" 😂😂😂

[@Cohen.the.Worrier]

Thanks for another insightful vid.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thanks for watching 😀😀😀

[@latinballa88]

Dad’s wisdom along with his surveillance of the consumer landscape as it pertains to the watch industry is second to none. I’ve been talked OUT of buying watches by this channel more than splurging on them 😅. Thanks for another great video, pop.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Old man with too much time on his hands (and overly "dad" confidence in his own opinions) 😂😂

[@kaunas88]

I am quite happy to have CW remain the value brand. What he means by "creating emotion" is getting folks to overpay for something due to emotionally manipulative marketing.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

yes

[@garythomas3150]

Great video. Do a part two, and include Monta 👍🏼

[@TheFuturisticVintage]

Another great video!

[@Myashey]

I believe that if these brands can get through the next 10 years, the future is going to be bright. The older watch nerd is going to be stuck in the past. Add a new generation of watch nerd and what they like and want will be different. In 20 years time I will not be here, if I am, I will not be chasing after a new watch. Looking at the car analogy, 20 years ago Skoda was a joke, yes they were bought out by the VW group, but the logo stayed on the front of the car, consumers have either forgotten or have never known the previous image. 20 years time the watch market will be a different animal.

[@PBlobbyist]

Just a note on the statement regarding Anordain being the only one to make enamel dials up to JLC. Please do not forget Seiko has enamel dials available in the pressage line that are really very excellent. EDIT: he corrected that couple minutes later.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

😉

[@grenphelps7455]

Nice review Mike 👍

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Glad you think so!

[@uncleben4536]

Regarding San Martin. As someone reentering the hobby and after researching brands and specs, I bought on specs alone. I ended up buying one, then two, San Martin watches. And while they are lovely watches for the money, I do find that they aren’t the type of watches I aspire to own anymore. They are great travel watches or beater watches that I value the same as something like a Casio g shock. I feel like San Martin is a brand that will entice a consumer once or maybe twice, but then they will move on to bigger and better things. I don’t think they will ever move beyond Ali express, because they have no brand recognition outside of the homage online space.

[@Jo-dv7si]

Insightful analysis as usual! Definitely the best youtube watch channel for original content. Don't you think that even if CW or Formex were to do more aggressive marketing, they still won't have the same reach as the larger luxury brands given the lack of "history" and physical stores for the average Joe to try the product. After all, they are both online B2C companies as with Studio Undergo/Farer/Zelos/Monta, so how does one company truly differentiate from another in this competitive space.

[@goimoddogfx7353]

My favorite from a micro brand is venezianico bucintoro im in love with it

[@stavand]

Love your content - but did the Grand Seiko analysis get cut off? It switched back to San Martin.

[@chrisnyc3641]

Great insights. I think CW has staying power. They are adeptly moving upmarket while simultaneously taking care of their traditional entry level devotees, they are hiring talent from the ultra high end space, and their grass roots marketing and public engagement is elegant.

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

agree

[@dragonsilver9671]

An eloquent critique in branding, seamlessly infused with horological, psychology and innovative business models.

[@brittwebb5602]

So. Much. Good. Content!

[@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch]

Thank you 😀