In the Prog Seat: Criminally Underrated, Misunderstood, Or Do These Albums Just Plain Suck? (Part 2)

Join the In the Prog Seat crew for a discussion of some questionable albums from prog heavyweights that have mixed opinions amongst the fans and critics. This is Part 2 of a 2 Part series.
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[@alternativepreacher4516]

Very touching and sincere takes from Luis about the Final Cut and about what music is all about, incredible, this episode was 11/10.

[@NaughtyVampireGod]

and the other two guys who support the album

[@davebrody9315]

Luis is bang on point imo.

[@nikolademitri731]

💯

[@mikevillain666]

That discussion about "The Final Cut", especially between Louis and Ken, is among the best I've ever seen on SoT.

[@johansoderberg6546]

I generally really like Ken's insights, but i thought he used too many low blows directed at Luis in this particular discussion.

[@mikevillain666]

@@johansoderberg6546 Well, obviously, he didn't want to go that deep, but it was plain to see that Louis' first statement was absolutely crushing. Quite impossible to counter that.

[@kramnosenhoj]

Ken is sarcastic. That is his world. I guarantee he respects Louis. I say this because I’m a sarcastic guy and I understand his vocabulary.

[@kengolden666]

@@johansoderberg6546 No anger. I love Luis. Its all done in good fun. We go back and forth all the time. All part of the show.

[@kengolden666]

@@kramnosenhoj U get it.

[@treycarmichael3605]

god bless Luis and his straight talk on The Final Cut. Moreso his reminders of why we listen and respond to music which in turn causes us to debate these works of art so many years later. and cheers raised to all of you for talking about important historical art and giving it renewed life and interest! always fun to listen

[@blamelouis]

Luis’s analysis of The Final Cut was so impassioned and heartfelt it touched me greatly. As someone from Ireland the hatred and disbelief at Thatchers actions at the time was explosive . And Gilmour has stated since retrospectively that he had no material for the album and Waters needed to vent about the crazy war mongering of Thatcher who used the deaths of young men to get re-elected and support her policy of destroying mining communities. Thank you Luis.

[@lahloonatic]

Thank YOU!

[@lahloonatic]

I went to a British school in Mexico. Thatcher and the Faulklands was something I could NOT avoid at the time. I also owe a great debt of gratitude to a Scottish teacher I had called Gordon Gylchrist. He mentored me in many ways, curated my early exposure to music and is directly responsible for me being a Physicist, in spite of the fact I wanted to do Art O level and he was not only my form teacher but the art teacher too. Told me to do physics. Never told Steven this, but its true: I have a warm place in my heart for Scotland.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@lahloonatic This I did not know Luis. 👍

[@maddysmith8846]

@@TranquilityFireReid Time @Luis Nasser visited I think!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@maddysmith8846 Absolutely!

[@Arutha_Con_Doin]

I could see this topic also being discussed within the Hudson Valley Squares with metal albums. Like Iron Maiden - X Factor, Judas Priest - Turbo, Metallica - Load, Dio - Angry Machine. Or with rock/hardrock albums like AC/DC - Fly on the Wall, Thin Lizzy - Chinatown, Alice Cooper - Constrictor, Kiss - The Elder

[@SydBarrettArchives]

I'm so happy someone FINALLY brought up the reason Rick was a hired hand on The Wall and excluded from The Final Cut.... he was having coke issues and couldn't do what he needed to. This always gets overlooked and blamed on Roger. And don't get me wrong, I love Rick, I love all of them. But Waters was the only one bringing enough material to the table in the later years, so you get a Waters heavy album or 5.... Thank you Luis for making a big point. Oh, funny side note, I've done The Final Cut at karaoke, NEVER do that song at karaoke unless you wanna bring down the whole place lol.

[@snowdog87]

Didn't get riled enough to comment til ya'll got to The Final Cut Mr Reid ..etal I am with you. Love this album But , then I feel That Amused to Death is good as anything Floyd ever did This album criminally underrated and misunderstood Love Roger his lyrics and his political activism Love that he gives a shit

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I am with you 100% there snowdon.

[@lahloonatic]

Agreed.

[@knightvisioniixv]

Though clearly transitional, I love ATTWT. The album sits somewhere in the middle when it comes to my personal catalogue ranking for Genesis. A joke I had heard on more than one occasion was that Emerson, Lake & Palmer's Black Moon (particularly "Farewell to Arms") was music fit for the life insurance commercials frequently seen around that time. Certainly not comparable to the Herculean offerings from the '70s; The pyrotechnics from both Emerson & Palmer are pretty much gone, and Lake's voice had darkened. Were age and attrition contributing factors in some (if not all) of this? Possibly. Either way, BM was one of the first few ELP albums I bought (early-2000's), so there's a soft spot for it (I occasionally heard the title track played on the radio.) "Affairs of the Heart" is my fav song on there (Like Jon, I tend to love ballads.) The Tull album is not bad at all, but I don't find myself reaching for it very often. Frankly, this whole episode could have been dedicated to the Pink Floyd album just to watch Ken and Luis go at it 😜. Many interesting points brought up. It's a touchy subject, so the only thing I will say is that The Final Cut left me cold for eons; A specific video by another content creator was what got me to pull out the disc after years of watching it sit around collecting dust. Clicked; Not among my top faves from the band, but I enjoy it far more these days. Good for certain moods. I suspect what Steven said near the end was probably most accurate when it comes to the album and the whole cultural thing. Long post. Great episode, guys.

[@bradleystone2623]

I agree with Mike below...one of the best episodes yet. Great discussion. I'd like to focus in on Genesis "And Then There Were Three". First of all, you all made some excellent points - great comments by the whole panel. I think I've made comments about this album before, so forgive me if I repeat myself. I think it is a rather misunderstood album, and underrated. I have to say I love this album. There are still a couple of great prog tunes by Tony: "The Lady Lies" and "Burning Rope" (I wish they had kept "Burning Rope" at its original length. I seem to remember that it was originally 10 or 11 minutes long, and they cut it down. A bad edit can be heard on the original album mix). "Deep in the Motherlode" is a great song - I heard it at 3 a.m. on the radio, driving west across western Nebraska on my way to Boulder, that was surreal! In fact, I really love all the songs on this album, with the exception of "Follow You, Follow Me", which is rather lame. But to say this was a transitional album for them into a more pop oriented band I think is where this album is misunderstood. First of all, they tried writing pop tunes right from the very first album, and Tony always expressed he wanted to be able to do that. But for me, "Abacab" was the album that was the big transitional record (which I was really disappointed in) and "Invisible Touch" was the clincher. I know that Mike is no Steve on the lead guitar, but I feel like what he did on ATTWT was effective, in the context. I'll say something sacrilegious, as much as I love Steve and his playing, I always sensed that he was a bit of an outlier in the band, a junior member. Major contributor and brilliant play, yes of course, but I feel like there is a bit of a revisionist history going on, especially with him doing the Genesis material on recent tours. Speaking of tours, I saw the tour for this album (1978, I believe it was, Assembly Hall, Bloomington, IN), and it was excellent! Tony had the ARP 2300 on stage, along with the Yamaha baby electric grand for the first time. Perhaps this album came off better live. One thing I'm not big on with ATTWT is the sound on this album - it's rather compressed and saturated. Would love for a fresh mix and mastering, don't think Steven Wilson will ever get asked to do it, though. One comment about "The Final Cut" - no Rick Wright, it's not a Pink Floyd album, to me. Cheers, guys, great job!!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Bradley, enjoyed reading your comments

[@paulh6673]

Well one thing this episode did was inspire me to listen to The Final Cut for the very first time. I am just a casual consumer of Pink Floyd. I enjoyed Luis' description/defence and Steven's perspective. Without having heard it, I was nodding along with their points, as in theory I agreed with their take on Waters and the concept of people having issues with what it is not, rather than what it actually is. Now I've actually heard it I'd say almost everyone on the panel had valid points. It's actually very good for a lot of of runtime, and sometimes quite trying, and also a little bit boring. I can see why it's a divisive album anyway but just after one listen I'm definitely falling down on the positive side. Entertaining discussion anyway!

[@greghansell5115]

I like 'Rock Island', even more so than 'Crest of a Knave'...it's a good hard rock album...I remember back in the day really liking 'Heavy Water' and 'The Whaler's Dues'. Being a flautist myself, I can appreciate this album and Ian's great flute solos. Having said that, I would agree that their earlier stuff is way better, especially the so-called Folk Rock trilogy of albums and even 'Broadsword and the Beast'...

[@gregoryslomba9719]

Rock Island always seemed to me to be a response to their infamous hard rock Grammy. It was Ian saying , right, you say we're not metal/hard rock, well here's a hard rock album.

[@Martroid]

The discussion here on The Final Cut makes this one of the best SOT episodes ever ... brilliant stuff, guys 🤘👽🤘

[@Jermeister12]

Hell yeah!!!😀I've only heard it because the Cobb County Ga library had it 😀.GODAWFUL😀

[@alder456]

Cheers Proggers. Really great show. I agree with Luis 100%. The Final Cut is a misunderstood masterpiece. I lost my Marine corp. father and I can’t get through it without tears. This is not for casual listening fans who dismiss it.

[@JIF882]

Listened to Rock Island today on Spotify(I don't own the cd). To me, it seems to marry Tull's early Blues sound to their later Prog sound. To me, Ian's singing at the beginning of Rattlesnake Trail reminds me of Dave Mustaine for some reason. I have always liked ...And Then There Were Three. No, Genesis did not consciously make a pop album. They made an album of shorter songs to have more variety, and to get more ideas on an album. I like Follow You Follow Me. It started out as a fusion-type piece ala Los Endos. Then, Mike wrote some words. I like that Tony uses the organ as the main instrument on that song. I see ATTWT as a similar album to the previous two studio albums, except with shorter songs. I like The Final Cut. Somber and Moody. Yes, I have read in a couple of music reference books that it was made up of some unused ideas from The Wall. That's why the Wall era song When The Tigers Broke Free was added to later reissues. The album even references the war, and Roger's dad like The Wall. I remember reading something from one of Pink Floyd's first managers(Andrew King) asking why does Roger keep whining about Syd and his dad. Perhaps Dave didn't contribute anything because he couldn't get on with the material. Inspired by this video, I decided to pull out Black Moon(ELP). I dig it. Changing States sounds like film music. I would say that ATTWT is underrated, and The Final Cut misunderstood

[@matweb8195]

Funny how The Final Cut causes so much hot air. One can only imagine what it was actually like in the band, lol.

[@ericporter344]

Truth 😂 would not wanted to have been at those sessions

[@johnhenfrey5936]

Luis agree with you 100% about The Final Cut Album. Rock Island saw Tull on tour promoting this album, bought the album but not played it in years. Genesis it’s an album that’s just ok. E.L.P. I own a few of their albums but never heard this particular album. A big thanks to all that took part, a truly great show.

[@chrissimpson6017]

Roger is my favorite Floyd member & I like The Final Cut, but I like the big 4 PF Albums, and even a couple of his solo albums better. (And also at least one Rick Wright, & one Nick Mason solo album) Waters offered to release it as a solo album, but Nick & Dave wanted the money. It was tied in with the Wall sessions which they had worked on, so ended up staying Floyd. Still, The Final Cut is much more of a Pink Floyd record than Momentary Lapse. 3 Pink Floyd members on most tracks. Momentary has barely any Nick or Rick Instead session musicians are used. It's Gilmour plus hired hands, & hired writers. There's a much larger team of outside people on it, and it comes much more from them. Also in response to The Wall not holding up. I'd say The Wall Live is much better than studio version. More Wright, extended solos. Top 2 or 3 for me. So poetic & touching. Holds up much better, and it's hard to go back to listening to the studio versions instead of the Live for me.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Also, the lyrical content of AMLOR and TDB are far less Floyd in spirit than TFC. And I agree, The Wall live is much better than the studio record.

[@luciusblackwood2640]

Great show! I saw Brit Floyd last week and they covered The Gunner's Dream and it was fantastic mixed in with all those other Floyd songs. Yeah, I never loved the Final Cut back in the day but I'm appreciating a lot more now.

[@nigelelliott4901]

Up until today my cut-off point for Pink Floyd was The Wall, an album I like a lot but at the time I was heavily into post-punk & didn't know anyone who was staying abreast of new Floyd. After your show, I had to give The Final Cut a try. One listen in & to me it sounds like a great (depressing) Rodge-heavy Falklands War Floyd album. (A lyrical compare & contrast with what Crass was saying in 1983 would reveal plenty of similarities.) I might have to go out & buy it. Luis is an honorary Brit, btw. He's totally in tune with our (depressing) sense of humour. Don't know if that's a Mexican thing or a Luis thing. (ATTWT sucks, my cut-off point for Tull is Stormwatch & everything after Brain Salad Surgery is fat dog's anal gravy.) Great show, chaps.

[@noohoozfurra]

Well...is it entirely possible that 'In The Prog Seat' can keep getting better and better? Hell yes! Absolutely magnificent show. Best yet, for me...and I have said that before!! Brilliant insight and commentary, from everyone. As for Luis impassioned defence/critique/ love for The Final Cut...one of the most affecting and perceptive examples of rhetoric on music, I can recall hearing...probably ever...outstanding work guys... 👏👏👏

[@davebrody9315]

Totally Agree

[@noohoozfurra]

@@davebrody9315 Cheers, Dave...

[@tmc1054]

As always the Prog Seat delivers. An articulate panel discussing their passion, you can't go wrong. Thank you, gents. p.s. The Final Cut is an intimate fully exposed work of art, it is beautifully flawed but harshly viewed because of the peerless work before it.

[@interstellardave]

It seems that The Final Cut is the best album, artistically, of the ones on this show… the reason being, it completely split the panel! It was loved, and hated, no in-between. That’s the sign of something truly artistic. For the most part the other albums got a more uniform lukewarm response. Interesting.

[@zachary1966]

well said!

[@ericporter344]

Great point

[@jimmorson9117]

So true,this is why I read these.your point here is bullseye😀

[@garyh.238]

Great episode this evening - vigorous, stimulating debates, especially in re The Final Cut. Thoroughly enjoyable and educational as well! Well done to all!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Gary

[@drewrose374]

Thanks Luis, I am definitely going back and paying closer attention to the lyrics of Rock Island, and I always liked The Final Cut and I'm going back to it with a different ear.

[@terryjohnson5275]

Great discussion - I'm going to view these from when I bought them to how I see them now. And Then There Were 3 - at the time it was the new Genesis and they had a song in the charts so you could see them on Top of the Pops. The single is a bit of an anomaly against the rest of the album as most of it to me follows through from the previous two. I do agree that they should have used a different guitarist or even a number of them - maybe not necessarily for the whole album but for some of the songs - I believe Tony Banks has said since that he thought had Steve Hackett been on it could have been better. Black Moon - at the time it was the great return of the mighty ELP and I received it pretty well, though it didnt totally wow me - I was a bit disappointed that they didnt do more with Romeo and Juliet. Today I like around a third of it - and about the same for the follow up so I'd say there's an ok to good LP length album that can be made from them. I tend to agree with Steven though in that if they had called it a day after Ladies and Gentlemen (with the exception of ELPowell which I do like a lot, because it was Emerson back doing what I wanted to hear him doing) I wouldn't be too bothered - though again at the time in 1977 to have a new ELP album was an event for me. Rock Island - Apart from having a tape of their MSG 78 live in concert Crest of a Knave was my first Tull album, bought on tape as was Rock Island afterwards. I liked it, yes its more of a heavy rock album with Dire Straits influences but I dont mind that, my preference now though is for everything from Stand up through to Broadsword. For me I was a bit late to the Tull party but I've made up for it since. The Final Cut - I bought it on tape at the time and hated it for many of the reasons outlined in the show - no Rick, not enough Dave, very downbeat and a bit miserable sounding. However I then bought Amused to Death (principally because it has Jeff Beck on it - and here I'd politely disagree with Ken in that I think he made great use of him, though I appreciate that I'm probably wrong on that but thats what I think) and loved it, so decided to go back to The Final Cut and at that time I started to get more into it. Then around two or three years ago I finally really got it - it took me the best part of 26 /27 years to get there but finally I did and now I think its a great if not fantastic album. I tend to share Steven's view that its a Roger solo album and that it has Dave on it as a guest, but I can see where Luis is coming from in maintaining that yes it is a Pink Floyd album, and would agree that if David Gilmour's Momentary lapse of Reason is considered Floyd then so should The Final Cut - they're the two sides of the coin that together made Animals, Wish You Were Here and Dark Side masterpieces. I just now prefer Roger's output. And Chad - i'm not a huge fan of The Wall either, I think its bloated and overrated and it could have been a phenomenal single album or if it had come out and add the CD age a 60 minute piece. Then when they did it live they could have extended it. And in answer to Pete's question there are some bits of The Final Cut that I do think you can only really appreciate if you are British and started your working life in the 80's - and without wanting to get too political I'll not expound on any diatribe against Maggie Thatcher save to say that in the UK we are still today suffering the consequences of some of her government's policies (although that's not to say any of the other political parties are and have been really any much better!). And Luis is absolutely right to point out that its against the futility of any war, and it shows contempt for warmongers, which still unfortunately has huge relevance and resonates today.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Well said Terry. I was making the same political point with someone on twitter today. Great post my friend.

[@rubenheredia1957]

I think that And Then There Were Three is a much better album than I expected; very much like Yes's Drama, it was a such a splendid, smooth transition to 80s Pop-Prog, and an epic closure to the Prog years.

[@NaughtyVampireGod]

Thank you to the three guys who support The Final Cut. It is a lights out classic. The greatest anti-war album of all time. The message is even more urgent today than back in 83.

[@JeffReams]

I would say the Final Cut is even more of a relevant album a year later from when they did this analysis. Considering the war in Israel and Ukraine.

[@superzapper]

I love The Final Cut . From what I read about the recording of this the rest if the band brought absolutely nothing song wise or any ideas and they just ended up recording everything Roger had laid down in demos for this project . The band had a choice Final Cut or Pros and Cons or write some new stuff and they chose The final Cut .

[@JIF882]

Actually, that's when they were working on The Wall. Roger also offered them Hitchhiking

[@TheCDGuyJZ]

I love The Final Cut. It's more of a Roger solo project than anything else, but the songs are super underrated and the atmosphere is incredible. Floyd's most underappreciated album in my opinion.

[@jmascisss]

Absolutely - I think it comes down to if you're a Waters or Gilmour man.

[@sspbrazil]

I concur.

[@zachary1966]

I love it too - a perfect headphone album. Very underrated, clever and soulful album too overall imo.

[@theclassicrockjunkie7353]

Not a favorite of mine from Pink Floyd but I do like it and have to be in the mood for it, there is a lot of melody on it and my favorite tune on it is Not Now John it just rocks and wish David contributed to the album more.

[@bryanmcfadden4071]

I read a recent article that Rogers and Waters are talking again about a reassembly, it was on my Google news , not on Facebook or KZbin that I've checked , I didn't clickbait it, but maybe 🤔

[@wolftree3948]

I'm not sure what is wrong with Lake's 'ballad-y stuff' on Black Moon given he has been know for some of that - pardon the pun - from the beginning of ELP's career. I, for one, like Footprints (especially, having said that I can imagine Luis running to the bathroom to yack) and Affairs. They are very fine songs, but admittedly not true prog. I'm a guy but not afraid to say I like them but then again I don't have the pressure of being on this video! In terms of the Genesis album, I'm one that is not so locked into the past that I can't be open a different approach or nuance. I have the Genesis album discussed, have not listened to it yet, but am sure I will like because I'm ok with change and can appreciate an artistic approach that doesn't mirror what preceded it. At the same time...born in '61 I'm listening to, for example, the old Genesis catalogue for the first time and doing in a different order compared to you guys. Prog has only come into my orbit for real in the last few years as a result of SoT. Still very interesting to hear everyone's views and this is a great topic worth a part 3, 4, etc - just for the banter alone and the electric remarks, too. For those interested, sounds like Rock Island is available on Ken's site.

[@robertglisson6319]

Greg Lake's ballads were a primary reason why women tended to be drawn to ELP than they were other prog bands, except for Pink Floyd (who arguably is not prog). It is also what dominated radio airplay, making some believe that ELP was like James Taylor or Seals and Croft lol. The guys loved the extraordinary power of ELP, however, which is what made them perhaps the biggest live band of the seventies, along with Led Zeppelin...

[@glennschupner6493]

How about discussing Wishbone Ash - There's The Rub, Uriah Heep - Wonderland, Nektar - Down To Earth, Camel - I Can See your House From Here.

[@samvetrano2867]

One of the best episodes yet. I love the passion of the panelists. Luis Nasser must respect. I agree 💯 about Roger and The Final Cut. I could watch Luis all day talk about music. Thanks as always Pete for the great content. SOT IS THE BEST CHANNEL ON KZbin.

[@craigsmallman1035]

The Final cut is a great album . & amused to death is one of the best albums ever written. Goodnight.

[@OMW66]

Great stuff again. I’m not a fan of 3 of these 4. I love «The Final Cut». Bought it the day it came and loved it right away. I love Roger too. Bright guy. Tull is OK, same with Genesis. ELP sucks ass.

[@muldoon67]

Pete, that comment about the UK 'getting' the Final Cut, was just what I was thinking, and I did want to hear what Steven had to say (although he may have just missed it growing up). I wonder if sometimes the folks in the US have a slightly 'polished/romantic' idea of what the UK was like in the mid-late 70s. It was basically a shit hole in many places. We had 3 channels on our TVs. TV shut down by 11pm. Huge amounts of people out of work. Coal miners striking. Race riots. Shops closed on Sundays. Petrol rationing. 3 day working week. Many cities still had slum areas and bomb damaged buildings from WW2 (Steven could probably back me up about areas of Glasgow at the time). This is built into our DNA. From this we got Punk, Monty Python etc. P.S. The wall is a top 20 album for me. We love our misery.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

You are absolutely correct David. The angst and anger from Waters perfectly captures Britain at the time, and yes, while I lived through it, I was a little too young to really understand. That said, it was obvious that this was not a happy country at the time and if anyone wanted to convey that within an album it was never going to be an easy listen. Great post.

[@patrickcrowther9195]

OK here goes…. Never really liked *And Then There Were Three* apart from ‘Follow You, Follow Me’ which I think is a really fine pop song. I am not a prog purist by any means so commerciality doesn’t bother me. I seem to remember the production being very weak. I’ve never heard *Black Moon* but I can imagine what it sounds like. The trouble is ELP was envisaged from the offset as a bombastic mix of classical and rock music. That was the group’s raison d’être. So the idea that in the 1990s they were going to find a new sound and audience was somewhat fanciful. Genesis changed musical direction because they wanted to make money and if they’d carried on doing double concept albums in the ‘80s they’d have been back playing theatres. Luckily they had in Phil Collins a born showman who had also been an actor, which did them no harm at all. ELP on the other hand had Greg Lake; so faceless that the band’s audience probably wouldn’t recognise him in the street. Bands that have no strong public personalities to see then through changing musical eras (as The Stones do, for example) are bound to find it difficult when the style of music they play goes out of fashion. I’ve never heard *Rock Island* as I gave up on Jethro Tull after seeing them on the ‘Under Wraps’ tour. Now I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I bloody love *The Final Cut* which is my favourite Pink Floyd album along with ‘Animals’. Or should I say I love it now. When it came out I quite enjoyed it but it all rather went over my head. In many respects it’s the beginning of Waters’ solo career and I imagine there’s a fair amount of truth from all the sides of the story. Waters felt he had to carry the rest of the band, the others felt he was megalomaniacal. It’s certainly not a record that’s easy to love like ‘The Dark Side of the Moon’. It is a very adult album with lyrical concerns befitting a man approaching middle age as Waters was at the time. Lyrically I think it is quite brilliant and there are passages on it that I find deeply moving, ‘Paranoid Eyes’ being one example. His singing was superb and very heartfelt, not surprising given how personal it all was. Perhaps it helps being British, as it is an album deeply rooted in the culture and history of Britain in and around the period of WW2. As I get older I find myself relating to the album more and more. Strangely it got superb reviews when it was released; I’m pretty sure Rolling Stone said it was their masterpiece. The public didn’t agree. But I will always stick up for ‘The Final Cut’, it’s not exactly easy listening but then if I want that I’ll go and listen to my Carpenters album.

[@larsschneider2378]

And Then There Were Three: Love it to death, totally underrated. Definitely the Genesis album that took me the longest time to get into, but in the last two years or so it has been my most played record by them. Deep In TheMotherlode and Burning Rope are among their finest songs, imo. The Final Cut: Misunderstood comes closest I would say. It has to be taken into account that it was a very personal record for Waters and (as we all know) a de-facto solo record and that Gilmour and Mason had almost no interest in the record. It's a "difficult" record for sure, but also really fascinating. And a pretty bold non-commercial move after the success of The Wall! The other two... well. I wouldn't say Rock Island sucks, but compared to every Tull album before it... it does (same goes for every other "newer" Tull record for me, except for the new one which is quite good). Black Moon - I like three or four songs, but as a whole I don't really need it. Does it suck? Again, compared with the "big" ELP albums of the early to mid 70s - it sure does.

[@tombiby5892]

I love And then there were three as well. But the sound is terrible. Has there been a better remastering in recent years?

[@josephramone5805]

ATTWT is my favorite Genesis album. Tony Banks finest effort and one of the greatest keyboard driven albums in all of Prog.

[@zakkhale181]

Excellent Panel, excellent episode. Great insight and discussion. Louis is the man!

[@SJHUE]

Great video guys very pleased to hear mostly positive comments on `And Then There Were Three`. This has been in my top 3 Genesis albums for over forty years now and I`ve always believed it to be underrated. Of course Mike Rutherford is no Steve Hackett (who is?!)but...for a beginner to the six string Mike`s solo on `Burning Rope` is fantastic and I love it! I also would like to mention the underlying power in `Undertow` which I think is sensational!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching! Definitely underrated for me, quite a few memorable songs that stand up in Genesis catalogue

[@kimberlywalker3970]

I don't know any of these albums. However, I'm familiar w/your discussions on the Pink Floyd album. I thought it was the most fascinating part of the show. I saw an interview once w/Nick Mason on Life on the Road w/Brian Johnson. What struck me is that Pink Floyd, like The Grateful Dead, is a band that you have to follow from the beginning. I also don't see Pink Floyd's album as having a "concept" because they all have one. Animals, if I'm not mistaken, is based on Animal Farm. And The Wall also based on 1984? Anyway, I think Eric is right. And I think Luis is right. Roger Waters is the kind of guy who wears his opinions on his sleeve. And it makes sense that The Wall and The Final Cut are political albums. I don't think they're meant to be "entertaining" because Pink Floyd isn't that type of band. But I understand Eric's point of view when he's says this album is less enjoyable because he gets less from it than some of the others. And I think Luis is correct in his analysis of the album and the group's dynamic. If Roger intended to make the album about the absurdity of war, then it should be as somber as it is. War sucks, it keeps going and nothing ever seems to get solved. Look at what's going on now. Anyway, isn't a good album supposed to make people think? And, from what I see, this album provoked the most thoughtful discussion out of any the ones you chose. So, I'm also inclined it's a misunderstood album. BTW, thanks for the fascinating discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I might be inclined to listen to The Wall and The Final Cut just see what you're talking about. Also, Ken, nice T-shirt😁

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Kimberly, much appreciated. It’s rare when someone can see both sides regardless of where your opinions fall. Thank you for leaving the comments and watching the show

[@kimberlywalker3970]

@@ericporter344 No problem. Thanks for the interesting discussion. See you next week😊

[@stuartdunne1978]

Awesome impassioned show - especially about The Final Cut. Luis's opinion on that is gold - but I can't say I like the Final Cut (I love the Wall) at all. I often go the Momentary Lapse of Reason, especially the remixed version, and Division Bell. I love them too. Luis is not wrong, and his opinion has clear passion and understanding. No-one can ever be wrong about an opinion unless they force others to agree (just my opinion haha).

[@VincentBautista365]

Honesty l've never cared about these albums...I don't own them. They never sparked any interest to my ears. In saying that, they are works of art by bands that we love. We forget that these people are artists staring at a blank piece of paper like a painter stares at a blank canvas. The creative process can be a pain in the butt. As an artist myself for 35 years my style has changed several times, sometimes for good and sometimes not. When buying a painting or music, it all comes down to what we like and what we don't like. This was a great show and a fantastic discussion. My favorite show on SOT! Thanks guys! 😉

[@TheD4VR0S]

I love The Final Cut - lyrically I think it's fantastic, maybe it resonates with me more because I'm a Brit, the Falklands War doesnt mean much for non brits same with for example "You can relax on both sides of the tracks and maniacs dont blow holes in bandsman by remote control" That was an actual terrorist attack on my country. Many say it's more of a Roger solo album and i wouldnt argue with that, but I like rogers solo work.

[@eatmysteel]

Oddly enough, I agree with every opinion said here about The Final Cut, as opposing as they seem. Everybody has great points about it, and that in itself points to the idea of it being a misunderstood album. That said, the two opinions I disagree with about it are that it IS a Pink Floyd record (not a Roger solo album) and that it sucks. I think it far from sucks, but I also think it is firmly a Roger solo album. Reasons for Richard Wright checking out on the Wall to begin with if I recall, WAS the fact that Roger was trying to be the sole musical director of that album. Wright is/was my favorite member of that band, but that said, even with his absence, I liked the Final Cut as it's own thing, despite it being called a Floyd album. One thing from this time period I remember was Gilmour telling Waters "Give me a call if you ever need a guitar player." Song writing is one thing, but instrumentation is also another, Waters seemed to think that Floyd was now HIS band at this point. That said, everybody does make good points around it.

[@sdrandazzo]

Another excellent show Pete and the ITPS gentlemen... great range of insights that make this the best SoT show imho. Love the Final Cut (misunderstood by many), not familiar with ELP album but would say it is generally misunderstood because of previous expectations of the their greater work, the Genesis album imho is misunderstood the beginning of the slide for them and imho the JT Rock Island generally sucks musically compared to the previous 70s efforts.

[@zedtradertoronto158]

Pink Floyd: The Final Cut, is criminally underrated. It is one of the best recorded and sounding records of all time. I would love to see how it was recorded and how it sounds so perfect! A very misunderstood album.

[@zedtradertoronto158]

Lyrically, it's still as relevant now, as it was then.. . especially with Dictator Putin, and his War on Ukraine going on. Extremely relevant record.

[@shanemorgan9846]

I LOVE The Final Cut. It was one of the very first CDs that I ever purchased and still listen to on a rather frequent basis. For me personally the writing was on the wall that there were issues with the band previous to its release and those issues came to the front during this album. Also, for me personally, I think that The Final Cut is head and shoulders above ANY Pink Floyd album that has come out since.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Agreed. People like to say Momentary Lapse and The Division Bell have the "Pink Floyd sound", but it's superficial and inauthentic. It's Floyd-by-numbers. And I think the "Pink Floyd sound" is a bit shallow without the strong thematic and lyrical bedrock Waters provides. I will never understand how people can happily ignore lyrics and just "listen to the music." If you're not listening to the lyrics in Pink Floyd, you're not listening to the music. They are there for a reason, and their relationship with the instrumentation is crucial to understanding and appreciating their music.

[@lazarossamaras4427]

Hello, good morning. I think that how we view an album has to do with the time and place we hear them. Genesis - Then they were three is an album I really didn't care for. But in the last few years I find it satisfying although Hackett is not there. I still don't really reach for Rock Island from that period of Tull, I try to like it but there is something I am missing. I prefer Crest of a knave ELP's Black Moon is not a prog album per se but I like a couple of songs, like Black Moon, Paper Money. Finally, as a Floyd fan I think of The Final Cut as a Waters solo album and I always listen to it on that perspective. It is like the leftovers from The Wall. But when I got it at the age of 15, it seemed grandiose to me, now not so much.

[@briankellogg2751]

I personally find The Final Cut hard to listen to, but it has more to do with the sparse musicality on it (much like a lot of Pros and Cons). Got to meet David Gilmour on the U.S. leg of the About Face tour and asked him why it was that British musicians can create a higher level of music compared to U.S. musicians and his answer was pretty interesting. He said: "because you've never had bombs dropped on your home over here". That just about says it all. Great show, as usual, guys!

[@NaughtyVampireGod]

I don't understand the US vs. UK thing . . and i don't understand David's comment.

[@jeffashcraft3777]

No Pink Floyd at all without Roger Waters

[@JIF882]

So, The Final Cut is a Pink Floyd album, even though Dave and Nick are barely on it, and Rick isn't on it at all

[@nectarinedreams7208]

@@JIF882 It was David Gilmour who wanted it to be called Pink Floyd, presumably for financial reasons. The exact same thing happened with Momentary Lapse. That was supposed to be a David Gilmour album yet he was convinced by the label to call it Pink Floyd and profit. The Final Cut has the spirit of Pink Floyd. Momentary Lapse has the spirit of generic AOR and cocaine deals.

[@tmc1054]

The Final Cut is a Pink Floyd album. Waters was the dominating creative force during this period and shouldn't have apologise for it. It is authentic, full of conviction, bleak and furious. I say this with reason and in full acceptance of any consequences - if you don't like it, fine. But do not bitch about it because you're too blind or even too privileged to get it.

[@tadpoleslamp]

Miguel; I love the way you express your opinion better than anyone on in the prog seat, and I guess I'll try listening to the final cut 1 more time, but I think it's crap as a Floyd, or a Waters solo album.

[@seethroughhead505]

Wonderful comments from Luis about The Final Cut.

[@jeffswanson3740]

I’m on board with The Final Cut. Love that album 💿

[@daanthing6002]

I'm not a Genesis or ELP guy, own some Tull albums and i'm a big fan of the Meddle - Animals period Floyd. Probably none of these albums are for me and i won't be checking them out (just too much music around). But man what an entertaining episode. Interesting, funny and heartfelt (both ways 😅). You've assembled a great group Pete! Thanks.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks!

[@sspbrazil]

The Final Cut is underrated and I think the theme and content of the album is more realized than The Wall in my opinion. Some very solid and emotional tracks on it, it’s not an album you can listen to frequently, but I like it.

[@arunsabherwal6256]

And some incendiary gtr playing on it by Gilmour. Take for example the song The Final Cut...masterpiece 👍🤘

[@sspbrazil]

@@arunsabherwal6256 yes, I was thinking about that too, I know Gilmour doesn’t like the album much and perhaps it’s really a Waters solo album, but I still like it.

[@ericarmstrong6540]

I agree with Louis' assessment of "The Final Cut": Persons who hate/dislike this album sometimes allow their perceptions of Roger Waters as being a controlling megalomaniac to color their view of the record.

[@darrendohertymusic]

I've been cooked up in a studio and missed all the content for a week but to come back to THIS episode reminded me why I come here so often. Great lively debate and well argued points of view. Chads face got really red during the Waters / Gilmore discussion, I thought he might turn purple at one point - terrific entertainment.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching

[@31LaschG]

Louis Nasser is my new hero!

[@BretCulpArts]

Regardless if it's Pink Floyd in name only, and I kinda think it is, I believe that the Final Cut is a true work of art by a true artist. One definition of art is that it communicates a message and elicits an emotional response. As with all art, there are many who won't connect with The Final Cut, but that doesn't diminish its artistic value or accomplishments. The Final Cut may contain challenging subject matter, but I'd argue that that is the trait of some of the most important art. Personally, I see beauty in the message and the craft. But I agree that it would be stronger and more palatable with more Gilmour to balance the Waters. And keep in mind that it was number one in the UK and number six in the US and has sold millions of copies. Maybe not a lot for the likes of Pink Floyd, but most bands should be so lucky. I rarely listen to this album, but I appreciate it for the artistic statement that it is, and when I'm in the right mood I put it on. FWIW, I feel the same way about Amused To Death, only more so. I vote misunderstood and underrated.

[@harrylime5715]

I think the final cut is a fantastic album. Two suns is one of their very best songs,

[@aidenswords5809]

Actually thats the weakest song on it, fantastic album

[@Esl1999]

Nothing screams more a 1983 song than Two Suns in The Sunset. War Games, The Day After, Testament… etc

[@nectarinedreams7208]

@@Esl1999 Threads makes The Day After look like a walk in the park.

[@martinfalk8597]

What an incredible episode! You guys always deliver the goods but this time... this episode was something else! I don't like The Final Cut either but I don't care. The way Louis exposed his opinion of that album was one of the most profund, sincere and determined things I've seen in a long time. Massive respect to you Luis! It's this type of shows that makes this channel so amazing and meaningful to me, why I continue to follow this channel year after year. Massive respect to you guys for delivering quality discussions like this on a weekly basis. It makes my days so much more entertaining and meaningful!

[@ericporter344]

Martin 👍

[@shyshift]

Pete I think that because Hitler was bombing London in the early 1940’s and people had to sleep and work never knowing if they were going to survive 24/7 and Americans didn’t experience that horror. Maybe that’s why they say we don’t understand The Final Cut.

[@martynhewitt91]

The Final Cut is probably the one Pink Floyd album I reach for the most. To truly get to grips with the album you have to understand the politics in the UK at the time. Margaret Thatcher, the Falklands etc. inform the music. I lived through that era and get it musically and lyrically. I don't have Then There Were Three despite being a Genesis fan. Black Moon I do have but rarely play it. I'll give it a spin later. Rock Island is a great record and I agree totally with Steven's assessment. Thanks guys for a thought provoking discussion.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Thanks for watching Martyn!

[@DamnableReverend]

I'm not from the UK, and I like the Final Cut. I don't think i listen to it enough to say that I love it, but a few of the tracks stuck with me from the very first time I heard the thing. it was my second Pink Floyd album actually, bought on CD in the early 90s when I was quite young and crazy for Dark Side of the Moon. I wanted another Pink Floyd album and I remember standing around in the store agonising for like half an hour over which one to buy, and for some weird reason, choosing this one. I brought it home and, well, it wasn't at all what I was expecting -- yet somehow -- I wasn't really disappointed. I could feel the passion of it right away and the lyrics, actually, really spoke to me. It was dark and sombre and in a way, it just clicked with me even though it wasn't at all what I wanted and yes, I did play Wish you were Here a lot more once I got that one.

[@joaopintojr6780]

The Final Cut is a masterpiece, the Genesis album is good, ELP and JT not good ones, Luis was perfect talking about The Final Cut 👏🏻👏🏻

[@greghansell5115]

'Follow You Follow Me' was the first song I ever heard from Genesis. I loved it then (as a 13 year old, when it was released) and I still love it to this day.

[@stewartconacher6552]

Same for me and so I have a nostalgic affection for A T T W T as it led to me taking an interest in music particularly Prog. I soon learned earlier Genesis albums were far better and it is unlikely to be an album I reach for if I want to listen to Genesis but I do have an affection for it.

[@frommetoyou1981]

The final cut is my favourite Floyd album, it packs a serious emotional punch, talk about perfect album sides - side 2 is phenomenal.

[@YT-wg8vt]

This was one of the best discussions and topics I've had the pleasure of watching on this channel. Great idea for a show!!! Personally, I would love to see more of this topic for other albums discussed. In fact, I would really like to see this same topic applied to the hard rock/metal side of things, say on the Hudson Valley Squares. Off the top of my head, a number of albums would fit the bill for this topic, including: (1) Black Sabbath - Technical Ecstasy (2) Judas Priest - Point of Entry or Turbo (3) Deep Purple - Who Do We Think We Are, Stormbringer, or Come Taste The Band (4) Kiss - Music From The Elder (5) AC/DC - Flick Of The Switch (6) Aerosmith - Draw The Line (7) Dio - Strange Highways (8) Thin Lizzy - Chinatown

[@sspbrazil]

I agree with Eric about And Then There were Three…I think it’s underrated, some of my favorite Genesis tracks are in it, “Down and Out’ and “Undertow” are fantastic as are “Deep In The Motherlode” and “Burning Rope”. Two good ballads too, “Many Too Many” and “Follow You, Follow Me” and I enjoy “Snowbound”, it’s beautiful, to counter Luis, I don’t feel that they changed their sound enough to change their name, it still sounds like Genesis and I can’t picture Gary Moore playing in this, it’s definitely a Banks heavy album musically to hide Rutherford’s guitar playing.

[@ericporter344]

👍

[@toddhill7483]

The Final Cut not top shelf Pink Floyd to me, but I definitely appreciate it for what it is. Fascinating discussion.

[@Norshammar72]

As with ELP in my opinion, they were a band that truly burned during 1970-1974. After that the were the band that burned out completely. What ever they tried never really gelled from 1977 onwards. They really got lost.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Excellent point!

[@mikewest1542]

Yes indeed , I couldn’t have put it better , all the pre 73 albums 10/10 post 73 , 4/10 as an average !

[@garycarfagno7910]

What makes this show great, as well as music is when the notes cascade through our ears we all hear something different, not good or bad....just different. This episode reminded me why I love this channel so much. Luis brings such an amazing perspective on not only the lyrical content, but composition, musicianship and band politics. McDonald's......awesome analogy. Passionate and insightful. Stephen has a great way of explaining points on why he likes/dislikes a piece. John added a great deal of key points to the discussion, as well. I understand more clearly why they like what they like. Than Eric, Chad, Ken and Pete give their feedback and i can see so vividly why these discussions are so great. I am in the latter camp on Waters, however I respect these men and their opinions on their love of his music. BTW the back and forth ball busting makes for not only an educational experience, but quite an entertaining one. When these guys make one another piss their pants it is magic. Missed Chuck and Anthony's yellow hoodie....lol.

[@jamesbodolay381]

Hello Pete, love your channel. If I may ask, where did you get the Rainbow shirt you're wearing in this episode? I am a big fan of Rainbow and Straight Between the Eyes.

[@williamwalker146]

Stephen Reid is such a fantastic album critic. He always introduces obscure, challenging concepts, ones I never would of conceived, but they aren't so incredible that you can't comprehend what he is saying. I love it.

[@arunsabherwal6256]

To the “Fab Four “ who fussed The Final Cut , urge you all to listen to the song “The Final Cut” (yes there is one which hardly anyone talks about) and listen to Gilmour’s solo at 3:18 , it is one of the most incendiary and emotive of his solos (albeit a short one). On the YT link to the song, please read the numerous comments on the song, album and Roger Waters, which include personnel from the armed forces and then let us see your comments.

[@scottiedoo8200]

I have all of these albums and my thoughts are as follows; Genesis - can do with out it sucks, ELP - liked it a lot when it came out, some tracks did not age well, the tour for that album was a great time went 3 times, Tull - I've never listened to that album, I enjoyed the previous one Crest of a Knave, will check it out this weekend. Floyd - I enjoy most of Waters solo material, his latest felt disjointed to me, but I enjoy the Final Cut and have to say I hope this series continues. Really enjoyed all the discussion and inter actions with everyone. Great show!!

[@ron6927]

Fantastic episode even though i only know 2 of them well, 1 so-so, and 1 not at all. My entry point for Genesis was And Then There Were Three and it is one of my favourites, always has been but i can connect it to being young and discovering lots of different types of music. ELP I don't know that album at all, hardly know any of them. On a previous show Luis was talking about BSS and Karn Evil 9 in particular. So i picked up a copy and i just don't like much of what i hear, at all. Still You Turn Me On and the 2nd Impression of Karn i liked but the rest left me completely unmoved. I don't play or read music so i can only take Luis's knowledge about Keith Emerson's genius at face value but i just don't hear it. Jethro Tull, heard Rock Island a couple of times but it didn't do much for me. As for Pink Floyd, i do like that album. It is not a cheerful listen. i'd agree with Steven that its politics are particularly UK based, it's Thatcher, Falklands War, UK education... but also Luis and John like it too, so it can't be all that and nothing else. The wider theme i think is exactly as Luis said, the futility of war. One small thing, i read that on the Animals tour it was Roger spitting at fans who were trying to climb the stage that triggered the idea for The Wall.

[@timhewtson6212]

I have loved much of Pink Floyd over the years. Not, in all honesty, much of the Syd Barrett stuff, but more or less everything after that, with a slight distaste for 'Dark Side of the Moon' because it's so slick. I only recently heard 'The Final Cut,' and I really loved it. Commercial it is not, but I see it as a necessary counter-balance to 'Dark Side of the Moon' - they do the lush stuff and then there is something astringent, something that resets your palate. The whole Waters vs. Gilmour thing is very similar to the Lennon vs. McCartney thing: do you like it salty stuff or sugary? Gilmour's guitar work is stunningly beautiful and Waters' concepts are spiky, challenging, meaningful. Hopefully, there would be synchronicity, but then there are egos. Not mentioned is that this is a very British album, suffused with the guilt of colonialism and unnecessary violence to maintain a position of dominance in the world. America hasn't quite got there yet, but it is getting there fast. This is a British conversation between those Brits who are absolutely repulsed by the Empire and those who are proud of it. This is a long-standing conversation in Britain, exemplified by Brexit, similar to the US hamster wheel of abortion. Americans are still saying, "Thank you for your service" to veterans, whereas many Brits view soldiers as oppressors and murderers of the weak and vulnerable (and usually non-White). Waters is a radical; Gilmour is a conservative, probably somewhat embarrassed by politics altogether. These were the themes Roger Waters was addressing, and, to me they are highly important themes. Do you want to accompany, wrap, such an important discussion in bling? I don't think so. The music on 'The Final Cut' is beautiful, but fragile. It is exactly what it should be. Waters chose to make a non-commercial album to address matters that he really cared about. Pink Floyd, after all, could spare the expense. I, for one, am most grateful that he did. 'The Final Cut' is a truly noble album, stating a message that needs to be heard. Outside music, Waters has continued to make political statements in line with his philosophy. Political music does not always play well (remember Billy Bragg?), but Roger Waters' music remembers to be music as well as being didactic. I applaud him.

[@minsterhill]

Great show men. Love "ATWT" Love Beach & Tull eh. like all of their catalogs for me. ELP & Tull is a hit or major miss, Final Cut & Momentary are great, I loved Floyd so much in my teens and early 20's I had to give whatever they released major listens and Final Cut sank in good on me! ButGenesis's "And Then " is my shining star in this comparison!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Howard

[@mikewest1542]

This discussion was absolutely brilliant , it featured 2 of my favourite bands , ELP & Genesis , ELP from 70-73 could not do wrong neither could Genesis 70- 76, but ELPs fall from Grace was much more severe than Genesis ,at least ATTWT was acceptable, I suppose you could forgive ELP a bit more as it was a 14 year gap between albums of you don’t count ELPowell !

[@martinkulkarni3569]

Final Cut and And Then There Were Three are two great albums which I love as much as any other Floyd and Genesis albums.

[@michaelcarroll9416]

"I'm gonna call it Bland Moon, and I think it sucks." LOLOL

[@glennschupner6493]

I love this topic. Please do a part 3

[@jamesthousandkings5406]

Fantastic show everyone, love that you are shining light on these albums. Here's my take: And Then They Were Three - 4/5 stars, love it! Put it right there at the same level as 'Wind & Wuthering'. Black Moon - 2/5 stars. Emerson's good, happy to have it, better than no new ELP. Rock Island - 2.5/5 stars. Solid, not top shelf Tull. Love Martin Barre's work. The Final Cut - 3/5 stars. Dark, deep, angry, reflective. If you have only listened to it 2 or 3 times (like some people on this panel), then it is kind of hard to take your opinion seriously. Like any complicated music, it takes time to sink in. If you have any sense of history, and listen to it alone (with headphones) this is a profound piece of art. As a military historian, and a former member of the military, this album speaks to my heart.

[@ericporter344]

I think Luis comments (even though he loves The Final Cut) are a strong case for The Whole is greater than the sum of its parts. When Floyd was firing on all cylinders, untouchable, amazing, creative music. They need each other to produce their best music IMHO. Momentary Lapse / Final Cut miss those elements for me, one-sided affairs that lack valuable input from other members

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Which is exactly why I think that viewed as a Waters solo album The Final Cut makes total sense. 😉But then I'm a big fan of Roger's solo work. This was a great show to be a part of!

[@ericporter344]

@@TranquilityFireReid it was a blast Steven, and everyone made great points about their thoughts (for all 4). I would agree it fits better in my mind as a Waters solo album.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@ericporter344 I loved the way that we were pretty much split on all 4 albums. It certainly promoted a lot of different points of view!

[@ericporter344]

@@TranquilityFireReid agreed, and hearing everyone’s thoughts really makes you think twice and re-examine your own views

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@ericporter344 It certainly does. Hearing other people's thoughts on albums is always a fascinating experience.

[@LeatherRebel75]

I've always kept The Final Cut at a distance and never really gave it a chance. I'm listening to it now, and although I cannot rate it as highly as Floyd's best albums, I can appreciate it for what is.

[@b.g.5869]

It's irrelevant to Luis' point whether or not Gilmour might have had awesome material he just didn't want to share with Waters, as one of the panelists suggested; either way, he wasn't bringing anything to the table. I'm not sure what the brilliant material might have been. Gilmour's first solo album following The Final Cut was "About Face" in 1984; not a particularly memorable album.

[@allthatyoutouch3164]

Listening to someone talk about "the final cut" is like listening to someone talk about my ex. I couldn't. I thought about any cheerful song from Pink Floyd, Can anyone think of one ? "The Scarecrow"? "Fat Old Sun"? The final cut is depressing and one has to be in a state of mind that fits. To me it is brilliant musically and lyrically but what Pink Floyd song ever got you turned on about life on earth ?

[@747jono]

2 hrs plus show guys amazing thank you thoroughly entertaining 👏.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks jonathan

[@chanonnaluta7958]

Rock Island was difficult because Jethro Tull doesn't have a bad album. The "bad" ones are just the ones that take a little more time getting into:)

[@larrygodfrey859]

I agree. Under wraps took me the longest to accept but I bought it and was determined to like it..

[@barsouk]

I'm from Rock Island County and I love Rock Island. I saw that tour at the Redbird Arena (an ampitheater w/ perfect accustics) at Illinois State University. They ended the show with a sillouette of a nice lady giving Ian a hinckleman behind the curtain. LOL!!!

[@Patrick-sh9tt]

Luis’ understanding and insights here are simply wonderful. I’m Irish but my grandmother, despite being very much an Irish nationalists, even at the time, was a nurse in England along with her sisters and uncle during WW2. She had lived through the Irish war of independence with Black and Tans raiding her house and later the, nasty and bloody Irish civil war, where we turned against our own, which we never truly got over and which was swept under the carpet in subsequent decades. However, she worked in a hospital looking after war wounded in England, men who were missing limbs, missing facial features, and she sometimes talked about how they would scream and cry out for their families and friends at night. She was highly stoic so I didn’t really take to heart what it was all about as a boy, but she always spoke well of the English people, and said she had been treated very well by them. The setting for Roger Waters’ art is in that anguish. Britain suffered greatly during the war and Roger was born into that. I think Luis really gets that, whereas some of the other commentators have a slightly more blasé approach here, which I can’t help but feel might be connected to their nationalities. Yes, the album may make you feel uncomfortable, as do many of his later works, but that’s essentially the point. Some of the Final Cut maybe doesn’t hold up as well as it might have but there’s no denying some absolute genius at work also. Southampton Dock, Final Cut and the incredible Two Suns…take the emotion out of the conversation and they are utter masterpieces. My grandmother died of cancer in 1986 and was buried in the Irish tricolour. Her uncle had been engaged to be married to an English lady in London when one day he went to visit her and she and the house were no longer there..hit by a German bomb. We still have all the letters and poems the English soldiers wrote to my grandmother..beautifully written in wonderful handwriting. People went through so much back then and I think this album captures something of it. Thank you Luis for an amazing breakdown.

[@IraSiegel]

I also like Rock Island (saw that and Knave tours) but will never for the life of me understand why they used drum machines from Under Wraps to this record. Different genre, but same reason I don’t like Priest’s Ram It Down. I do like The Final Cut and listened to quite a bit when I bought on vinyl in ‘83 but don’t listen to much these days. It is depressing. I also took a lyric from the album in my high school year book (last sentence on the album).

[@theclassicrockjunkie7353]

And Then There Were Three - Misunderstood Black Moon - Sucks Rock Island - Underrated Final Cut - Underrated/Misunderstood

[@jonfargo7321]

Great episode. Really enjoyable. I’m a huge Pink Floyd fan and really like The Final Cut for what it is. I have to be in a certain mindset to throw it on, but I think it’s a strong album. The enormous success of the prior four albums and the obvious friction in the band cast a shadow on this record. I currently give this album equal listening time to their core ‘70s albums.

[@purpletemple1]

Genesis: I'm not a big fan of that album. I think the opening track is great and the rest is disappointing. Probably misunderstood. ELP: It's an okay album. I didn't like it when it came out, but as I listened to it a few years ago, I didn't think it was that bad. Misunderstood. Jethro Tull: Kind of a middle of the road album. I don't really care for it. Fairly rated. Pink Floyd: Terrible album. Boring and depressing. I don't like Roger Waters post Wish you were Here. Plain suck. Cheers.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Calling a an album depressing is a completely empty statement. Like, okay, it's depressing. What on earth is your point?

[@wokebloke7019]

I’m with Luis on The Final Cut. It’s a master piece and misunderstood.

[@gabriellarrubia1006]

That's a fun Jethro Tull album, although kind of mid-tier in their discography. It's the only one of the four I've heard more than once, though. I recommend it. The Whaler's Dues was probably one of my picks for top 10 songs or deep cuts on some topic ages ago. Martin Barre's little melodic fills are very satisfying here and I can't really single out a bad song. Better than Crest of a Knave and just short of Broadsword & the Beast, so it's probably like the second or third best record from them since the 70s run (I'm thinking Roots to Branches is a contender as well).

[@crusheverything4449]

Roots to Branches absolutely smokes Rock Island, Crest of a Knave and Broadsword, IMO. It has everything you want from a Tull album, especially incredible songwriting. Ian used his limited vocal range in a masterful way that works perfectly with the music and the middle eastern melodic sense on many of the tracks fits like a glove. There are some gorgeous musical passages and some of Tull’s heaviest, too. I think it’s the best post-70s Tull album by miles.

[@DavidLazarus]

Being 51 with no older siblings, I got to know early 80s Genesis before I got to know Gabriel era and mid to late 70s Genesis. Perhaps that is one reason I like all eras; even Calling All Stations has some great tracks.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I'm with you David. I'm 49 and had the exact same Genesis journey that you did.

[@DavidLazarus]

@@TranquilityFireReid - Yeah, funnily enough, I got into hard rock and new wave before I got into prog. Also, I was raised on dance music as a friend of my dad's used to own a restaurant and lounge. We went there regularly. Thus, even though my musical taste is pretty broad, prog rock and new wave are my two main musical loves. An odd match I know. I'll bet that there are a lot of people who cannot mention Duran Duran and King Crimson in the same sentence and say that they enjoy the music of both.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@DavidLazarus You and me both David. I must admit that most dance music is beyond me, but count me as a fan of both Duran Duran and King Crimson!

[@DavidLazarus]

@@TranquilityFireReid - Today's dance music for sure! It wasn't so bad in the 70s and 80s though.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@DavidLazarus OK, you'll have to enlighten this non dancing Scot... what constitutes 70s and 80s dance? 😀

[@daicullinane7746]

Enjoyable show. Lots of interesting views. Steven and Luis were on fire. Love And Then There Were Three and The Final Cut. Despite Lapse being the album I heard before Cut, I definitely prefer Cut. It"s been a while since I last listened to Black Moon and Rock Island, although I remember liking them. Maybe a relisten is required? If Dave didn't like the songs, and wasn't going give Roger any of his ideas, why didn't he leave? I love Amused to Death, Roger's best.