Did Oberyn poison Tywin?

[@james-97209]

The irony of all things is that if rob had postponed his return to the north for like a month or so chances are that the red wedding wouldn't have happened because with tywin and Joffrey dead , Tyrion in essos and Cersei in power rob would appear as the strongest at the time making the freys and the Boltons unlikely to betray him because at the time it would be stupid to do so and far more advantageous to remain loyal. Or at least thats what I think

[@j-rey-]

Robb's downfall really was death by 1000 cuts :(. So many small things went wrong.

[@Knight-In-Green]

I honestly think of many of G.R.R.M's plots and characters as similar to power-scaling in comic books; the story dictates turn of events, not reason or established lore.

[@sarcastaball]

And if George never wrote that book you wouldn't know about any of this. What's your point

[@mattcorr5597]

​@@sarcastaball you are very clever

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Except way more time than that passes

[@Otsego]

While Oberyn is easily the prime suspect, your conclusion on Varys' motives seems to lend itself to both sides of the argument. If Varys wanted to kill Tywin but not get caught. Poisoning him while a famous master of poisons is around that has motive and is shouting about how he wants Tywin dead would make a pretty great cover. Then, after Oberyn died, when they may have done more of an investigation, Tyrion comes along with murderous potential to clean it all up. I believe fully that Oberyn did it but I would not feel lied to if Martin himself blamed Varys.

[@saeyabor]

I think you're right, except for one point: you're talking like we have to choose between Oberyn and Varys. Varys killed Ser Kevan for being _competent enough to potentially cause delays for Connington._ There's *_NO_* reason he wouldn't "openly" (by his standards) approach Oberyn with a time of day and shelf-number to check Pycelle's lab, when it comes to removing Tywin.

[@wumbojet]

Imagine how funny would it be if actually both Oberyn and Varys poisoned him but the poisons cancelled each other and just gave Tywin the worst case of constipation in Westerosi history.

[@joseph-fernando-piano]

@@wumbojethaha like if Oberyn gave him Widow’s Blood and Varys gave him something that makes you uncontrollably shit yourself to death, and meanwhile they’re both confused when Tywin is just like “my bowels have never felt better!”

[@clownpendotfart]

@@joseph-fernando-piano That would honestly be more plausible than the claim of this video... because Tywin lived for weeks after Oberyn's death without anyone noticing anything.

[@hebi172]

What would Martin Luther do?

[@CarlG-xu6qe]

Either he did or Tywin had the worst case of bubble guts known to man

[@Timbo6669]

“Bubble guts”? That’s one I haven’t heard. Is it indigestion?

[@stingerjohnny9951]

@@Timbo6669 it can mean a lot of different things based on context, but it generally refers to the runs

[@Wolfeson28]

@@stingerjohnny9951 Wouldn't that be the precise opposite of what Tywin had, though?

[@chaost4544]

@@Timbo6669 I've heard this term in recent years and it makes me laugh. It's an accurate description of the intestines facing a bad situation.

[@clownpendotfart]

Tywin died weeks after Oberyn. He couldn't have been that badly off for nobody to notice over all that time.

[@brandanpalmer]

Well, there's another GIANT clue: the poison's name. Any poison would have worked. Probably there's a different poison that would be more fatal, or perhaps even more painful and drawn out. But which widow's blood did Tywin have on his hands? Elia's a widow at the time of her death, and she bled horrifically.

[@barehardjeremy]

this a good point. Giving the poison that sort of name is exactly the kind of foreshadowing GRRM uses.

[@aulex6545]

This is actually super in line with what GRRM does with the name of in Jon Arryn's death. the poison used is "Tears of Lys", and it is later revealed that the culprit is Lysa, who reluctantly poisons her husband after being manipulated by Littlefinger and cries great tears over his death. Could be a coincidence, but GRRM loves doing stuff like this.

[@jeffwinn673]

@@aulex6545Great point!

[@jeffwinn673]

I like that concept. Well said... or well written.😂

[@SlytherinShark888]

Given that Tywin’s most infamous act was damning up the river next to Castemere and thus drowning hundreds, it’s fitting that he was slowly drowning from his body being dammed of its own toxic liquids. Gotta give it to GRRM. He’s creative.

[@mt_baldwin]

A master of poison enacting a plot years in the making and travels hundreds of miles to where his target is and.... steals the poison to be used? This evidence works more to exonerate Oberyn than convict him. Stealing the poison is the act of someone without regular access to such poisons, which hardly fits Oberyn. It's also an unnecessary risk, as indeed the poison being stolen was noticed and the whole court knew about it. One more thing, if he had won the duel, made the Mountain confess and Tyrion didn't kill Tywin (so basically events going the way Oberyn hoped/expected they would go), he would be immediately blamed as surely as if he stuck his spear in Tywins chest. No one would believe it was anyone other than Oberyn. He would probably be tried for Joffery's death as well (as in this line of events Tyrion would be found innocent via trial by combat), a vengeful master poisoner shows up in Kings Landing and two Lannisters die via poison.

[@Itomon]

Its more fitting that this is someone else's plan, probably Varys, and considering how Varys also facilitates Tyrion's escape, this makes even more sense. My take is, poisoning Tywin was a backup plan that was hastily fowarded after Tyrion's trial

[@lisahuber9329]

Actually stealing the poison was a great plan because anyone could have done it. Otherwise it would have been obvious that it was Oberyn, because who else could have made that poison themselves?

[@clownpendotfart]

Which is why I don't believe he came to King's Landing to kill Tywin himself, rather than to make him publicly declared guilty of those orders.

[@astrinymris9953]

Unless Pycelle lied about this poison being stolen, to cement Tyrion's guilt in the eyes of the court. And if Tywin did noticeably die by Widow's Blood... then of course Tyrion must have poisoned him before being executed. I mean Tyrion had been found guilty of one act of kinslaying by poison in the court's eyes. Who'd question the revelation that he'd committed a second one?

[@georgianamatoianu7453]

Consider how did Oberyn plan to get justice on Clegane? He had to bring him to King's Landing. I think he wanted to be accused of Tywin's murder, so he can demand trial by combat, and bet on the Lannisters bringing in Clegane to fight for them, thus killing them both. Another trial by combat presenting itself due to Joffrey'a murder was coincidence.

[@brendan9868]

Poison or not Tywin’s death was definitely inspired by the alleged death of William the Conqueror. Apparently after William had died, the people around him on his deathbed kinda just left him there and servants began robbing the household. When they finally decided to bury him, his tomb was too small for his body, which made onlookers have to kinda cram his body in which caused it to burst and release a horrible odor.

[@stephendavis6267]

My theory has always been that Tywin was dying when Tyrion killed him, but not of poison. I like to imagine that Tywin was dying of bowel cancer, and that as a proud and private man, he wasn't going to make it public, but at the same time, he was more desperate to make sure that his family legacy was consecrated immediately.

[@jackfoxx6351]

And truth be told this is what I've always thought as well but after watching this video I'm not so sure. But after Tywin died my original thought was that monologue he gave to Aria at Haron Hall about this being his last war.

[@davideberhardt6150]

@@jackfoxx6351 But that dialogue does not happen in the books. In the books, Arya and Tywin barely meet, she's a cup bearer to Roose Bolton 'til her escape from Harrenhal.

[@apstrike]

This is exactly the kind of thing that Martin should do but doesn't. It would have added so much realism to the character of Tywin, and giving a character an ordinary death would make some of the other overly dramatic deaths feel less so.

[@clownpendotfart]

More plausible than this video. Because Tywin lived for weeks after Oberyn died, without anybody noticing anything.

[@kworyl6490]

I guess the ‘bowel cancer’ angle would be a play on the saying that ‘Tywin shits gold’ 👍👊

[@AndrewK23777]

Great vid as always IDG. Tywin's stomach issues / struggling to go to the bathroom , the stench after the killing blow ; along with the extreme rotting , decay and extra extreme odor(s) while Tywin's body was laid out all very suggestive of poison. Very likely Widow's Blood as the vid suggests. Overall Oberyn seems the type who is so sharp and cunning that he implements numerous contingency plans when pursuing an aim. Someone so resourceful and knowledgable (very well rounded knowledge at that) with considerable access to just about anything ; and specifically a propensity and considerable knowledge of poisons all adds up nicely in this situation (Tywin's death). Such a cunning person as OM the contingency plans just seem to be his way ; he was going to expose and eventually (and arguably most importantly) kill Tywin one way or the other. If OM's plans did not materialize the way h expected the poison is the failsafe. Further suggestive of it being Oberyn's way OM also used poison in combat with the Mountain as an insurance policy in case he couldn't accomplish the challenge with Gregor. If not for Oberyn's further agenda with Gregor he would have bested him simply via combat but the poison the failsafe yet again. This just seem Oberyn's way , knowledge and tendency to use poisons lines up nicely ; and seems he likes to have layers of contingency plans / failsafe which the poisons acted was with Tywin and beyond. One way or the other the Red Viper makes sure to find his mark.

[@MissScarletTanager]

My headcanon is that it was both. Varys' little birds told him about Oberyn's goal ("Let them", etc.). Varys steals the poison from Pycelle (He knows the secrets of the Red Keep, and specifically how to sneak into Pycelle's chambers. Oberyn, sneaky as he is, wouldn't know these things). Varys provides the poison to someone he *knows* will use it properly and would be the obvious culprit should someone need to take the fall (Oberyn, who probably knew Varys was playing him but didn't care because it fit his goals anyway). Shenanigans occur, Tywin is poisoned, likely slowly over a period of time to as to not raise suspicion. But then Littlefinger and Olenna orchestrates Joffrey's death, leading to Oberyn dying against the Mountain. Now Tywin is poisoned to soon to die from it, but Varys now lacks a fall guy for the inevitable death. In enters Tyrion, freshly "convicted" of murdering a king already and who has multiple Everest-sized grudges against his father, many of which are well known. All he had to do was point Tyrion in Tywin's direction-ish, and even if Tyrion *hadn't* killed Tywin, he was now set up to at *least* take the fall for the poisoning (which, of course, never ended up being needed because gut-crossbow). Varys gets exactly what he wants on all counts (pissed off Martells, a dead Tywin with no possible means of tracing it back to him, and Tyrion heading to Aegon).

[@clownpendotfart]

"Slowly over a period of time"? Tywin died weeks after Oberyn was killed, with nobody noticing Tywin was poisoned over all that time. So Tywin certainly wasn't "soon to die from it". And how would Tyrion take a fall for poisoning Tywin AFTER he's incarcerated for poisoning Joffrey? Is anyone going to believe that Tywin was just accepting drinks from his convicted regicide son?

[@gshift83]

I think what people are not asking is who or which House benefits if Tywin dies? I suspect Varys. He is well aware of the enmity btw the Martells and the Lannisters plus Oberyns' arrival in Kings Landing presents him with a perfect opportunity to take advantage of the quiet storm brewing btw the two Houses. Who better to blame for the poisoning of the Kings Hand than the Viper of Dorne himself who was not shy to voice his distaste for the Lannisters. "I tell you a secret- Your not a golden lion".😅

[@michaelbayer5094]

In the books, Prince Doran is playing the long game for vengance (too long maybe?) by being pro-Targaryen all along. Varys is absolutely pro-Targ supporting the 2 surviving branches of the family. Varys sends Tyrion to Dany to get her to Westeros. Doran dispatches Arianne to find Young Griff (fake Aegon?). I don't think Varys would want Dorne blamed for Tywin's murder. He wants Tyrion blamed. There's ample evidence that Tyrion is the wedge that can split Cercei and Jamie. Varys is eliminating all rivals to Cercei's drive for power, who is weak and stupid, so Martell-Targaryen alliance can take the throne.

[@clownpendotfart]

He can't blame Oberyn for giving Tywin widows blood... because everyone knew that Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, and thus couldn't have poisoned him more recently than that. Pycelle would know that Tywin wasn't dying over that time period.

[@michaelbayer5094]

@@clownpendotfart You make a good point, but what if it's a slow-acting poison? Since Oberyn did not intend to die, or even if he factored that in, a slow-acting poison would permit Oberyn to leave KL before Tywin died, and pre-empt suspicion of Dornish involvement.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@michaelbayer5094 What possible poison is not noticeable for weeks, and then causes death afterward? How can that be reconciled with human metabolism? Would it need to be something radioactive, but with a long enough half life that it takes a month to accumulate enough damage, and also somehow isn't flushed out of the body? And if you believed he wasn't defecating that whole time, wouldn't he realize something was up and be consulting with Pycelle rather than bringing Shae into his bed?

[@Infiltator2]

He probably gave it Tywin before the death if Joffrey. If they then believe it was him he can demand the trial by combat. Sp then he can kill the mountain and is free to go. Thats like a perfect plan

[@PumpkinHoard]

Tywins Terrible Turds, a childrens book Oberyn planned to write when he returned to Dorne.

[@arnaldolopez6471]

But just like winds of winter, we’ll never get to see it lol

[@sfrink1425]

LOL!

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

I might write that as an intro to the world of ASOIAF for my 10 yr old niece. She loves anything gross. No doubt she'll want a dragon, too.

[@fydofire]

@@arnaldolopez6471 Winds of Winter might actually just be a collection of House Stark's best fart jokes.

[@venomdrenched]

Complete with a song designed to supplant Rains of Castamere.

[@MJG72a]

Or Varys did it. He knew exactly how to get into the Hand's room. Sending Tyrion ensured his now needless attempt at poison could be covered up. Oberyn was killed unexpectedly and so wouldn't have set up the murder yet, no rush. Plus as a master poisoner wouldn't he have brought his own?

[@venomdrenched]

Alternatively, he stole a poison that would be missed and therefore cast suspicion on anyone in the keep.

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

And a strong Tywin would defeat the Griff. He would take a combined Tyrell/Lannister army and defeat the Griff, and then secure the Stormlands entirely.

[@toms169]

You say Oberyn wouldn‘t have set up the murder yet as he didn‘t expect to die. But he couldn‘t KNOW that he‘d beat the Mountain. Had he been 100% confident, he wouldn‘t have laced his weapons in poison either. So in my mind the trial by combat is the exact reason why him poisoning Tywin HAD to be rushed, to make sure he got his revenge even if he lost the duel. Your other arguments for Varys being the poisoner are very strong however! GRRM specifically tells us that Varys‘ little birds must have heard Oberyn‘s threats regarding Tywin. So Oberyn being in the city is the perfect cover for Varys poisoning Tywin. And Tyrion killing Tywin is even better, as it hides the poisoning altogether.

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

@@toms169 And we know he got rid of Kevan

[@KC-in9px]

Or no one did it. It's a work of fiction. The way that you geeks ponder the what ifs is hilarious.

[@sardonically-inclined7645]

I'm not saying he did it. I'm just saying it's a shame he didn't get to live long enough to see Tywin's demise. And I'm a Tywin stan.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

I love both Tywin and Oberyn as characters, and I'm still uncertain here. There's circumstantial evidence and a strong motive, but nothing solid. I'm not even convinced that Tywin was being poisoned - gut wounds mean faster putrefaction, and the quick decomp could just be a metaphor for what a truly rotten person Tywin was under the gilded armour. But if he *was* poisoned, my money would indeed be on Oberyn Martel.

[@matthewmoser1284]

I think Varys wasnt directly prompting Tyrion to kill Tywin. I think it was Varys deciding that Tyrion deserved his own revenge. Remember earlier in the series when Varys has that odd moment where he openly flaunts to Tyrion that hes finally found and captured the Wizard who cut him? Thats an unusual scene, even by Varys' standards. I think George was setting up the future of Tyrion getting an opportunity to kill Tywin in that scene, because the only other person present for the Wizard unboxing is Tyrion himself. Varys clearly appreciates and understands the motivation for finally getting hands on with your revenge, and he makes it quite a personal thing. This scene sets up Tyrions own revenge later PERFECTLY. Varys, as pointed out quite well in this video, almost certainly KNOWS Tywin is going to die. He knows there is precious little time to smuggle Tyrion out, but he considers hard Tyrions justified desire for revenge.

[@gottenm9106]

Plus the Widow's blood fits with the story since Ellia died a widow (her husband already died) and Tywin was responsible for her death, makes him covered in her blood, aka widow's blood

[@thewandering01]

My first thought, with the knowledge that the possible poison was stolen from Pycelle's stash, is actually Varys and his little birds. Nobody would have been better positioned to steal the poison than the little birds. I think his intention was that he could blame Oberyn (relying on Oberyn's reputation, the bad blood between the Dornish and the Lannisters, and even witnesses besides Tyrion who could probably testify about Oberyn's threats), and cause additional chaos and discord among the Westerosi leaders that would be opposed to the fake Aegon. I think the mechanics of how the poisoning would be done would be MUCH easier for Varys and his little birds. If Tywin has even a bit of sense (and we know he does), he would be incredibly wary of any food or drink being served in his presence with Oberyn around. And Oberyn would need to overcome any precautions Tywin takes with the additional hurdle of being a distrusted stranger in the city; it's going to be that much harder for him to steal poison from Pycelle or convince someone to act as his agent because he's Dornish and has the reputation which he does. On the other hand, Varys having one of his little birds act as a cupbearer for Tywin and bringing him wine or water on an occasion where Tywin is alone and not on guard against being poisoned, as he would be on guard whenever he's around Oberyn, is a much simpler operation. Varys could even have taken inspiration from Oberyn's talk of killing Tywin; IIRC, while in the Black Cells with Tyrion, Oberyn points out that if Cersei hadn't accused Tyrion, Oberyn might have been considered a natural suspect for poisoning Joffrey. Varys's little birds (and likely Varys himself, if he is indeed the missing jailer spoken of after Tywin's death) have easy access to the cells, and it's hard to imagine Varys overhearing Oberyn or getting a report of what Oberyn said and thinking to himself "Huh, that's a good idea, actually." And you did come around to the Varys possibility late in the video. Still I feel like there are some factors I listed which you didn't take into account.

[@johnmitchell4043]

Tywin did not give the order to kill Elia Martell... when Tyrion asks why he order her dead Tywin answers... he ordered the death of Rheagars children not Elia, Once her children were dead Elia posed no threat, killing her served no purpose... Tyrion asks, 'then why didnt you order her to be spared?' Tywin says ' because I didnt think to, all my thoughts were on Jamie and I didnt realise what I had in Sir Greagor at that point...

[@DarkCreepyFairy]

My guess would be that the poison was Oberyn’s backup plan in the case that he somehow inexplainably don’t win over the Mountain And Tyrion shooting him even if he knew about the poison simply for the same reason as if he didn’t. The last thing his father, one of his biggest bullies, who refuses to acknowledge Tyrion for things he actually did right (fixed sewage system of Casterly rock, competent hand of the king) and name him his heir he lawfully is, the one who sentenced him to death, sees before is death, is that the person he despises the most in the world is the one who ultimately kills him and he could have prevented it by treating him better.

[@awesomehpt8938]

I think it was ser pounce

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Cats are clever, sneaky little murderbeasts... and nobody ever suspects the kitten!

[@JaceMorley]

The Pounce that was Promised!

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

Hodor = Hodor = Hodor = ...Hodor Those who know, know.

[@clownpendotfart]

Ser Pounce at least hadn't died weeks before Tywin.

[@astrinymris9953]

But if it were Ser Pounce, he'd have knocked the vial off the edge of the table after poisoning them.

[@ernestcline2868]

Varys may have simply ensured Oberyn had access to the poison he needed without directing the poisoning himself.

[@thegovernment0usa]

It's a microcosm of the way GRRM furnishes so many small details that we can discern the shape of whole other stories by pinging explicitly stated details off of one another--like dolphin clicks illustrating the topography of the ocean floor.

[@morgant6660]

If he went to Kings Landing to poison Tywin, he would have brought his own poison. To be sure of having access and to cover his tracks, he didn't steal poison to use on The Mountain, so why would he for Tywin. I think the fact that the poison is missing makes it likely to be an inside job

[@James-bi4jz]

Saying the Starks would not stoop to poison makes sense, but the same doesn't stand for Stanis. He was a cold hearted pragmatist who used dark magic to kill his own brother. That said there is nothing to suggest it was him and the case for Oberyn does seem strong.

[@clownpendotfart]

The case for Oberyn is weaker than for anyone who was still alive when Tywin died, because that happened weeks after Oberyn's death.

[@georgianamatoianu7453]

A point that isn't covered is how did Oberyn plan to get justice on Clegane? He had to bring him to King's Landing. I think he wanted to be accused of Tywin's murder, so he can demand trial by combat, and bet on the Lannisters bringing in Clegane to fight for them, thus killing them both. Another trial by combat presenting itself due to Joffrey'a murder was coincidence. ETA: Another clue to this is more of a meta one, but when Pycelle is listing poisons, he only stops to describe widow's blood, and no other, which makes you think it has to have some relevance.

[@Infiltator2]

Exactly. He kill kill both and is still a free man. Killing Tywin is the only reason why he would travel to Kings Landing

[@KicktheSky34]

It's kind of amazing, bordering on plothole, that Oberyn is never once even suggested, that I can recall, to have been the one to poison Joffrey.

[@yami122]

Because it's so incredibly obvious To the point where it becomes extremely unlikely a well known master poisoner with a grudge against that house is not going to be present in the city when one of those houses members dies from poisoning if he's the one to do it he would both be out of the city when the person dies of poisoning and the poisoning would be much more subtle to the point where people probably wouldn't even know he died From poison Plus it's the wrong target for him He's not gonna want to be bratty child king whose actively running that house's power over the realms into the ground through extremely poor decision making It would literally help his most hated individual by putting them on the throne The reason he's not even suggested as a culprit is because it just doesn't line up with him at all It was done in the wrong way to the wrong person for it to be him

[@KicktheSky34]

@@yami122 It doesn’t have to make sense for it to be an open question. It’s not like Tyrion was accused because of the preponderance of evidence, Cersei just pointed at the person in the room she hated most and started screaming.

[@ChristopherTrethowan]

I'm doing a re-read and after watching this i noticed another lil clue. The kindly man is telling arya about poisons and he mentions one that kills the victim subtly from the inside, causing the body to shut down, so with the lil easter egg from Pycelle and all the evidence presented by robert in this vid that feels like grrm is giving us a big ol wink about this

[@HAL-cp4mt]

Video idea: who betrayed Arianne Martell plans to queen Marcella to her father ?

[@j-rey-]

I'm not sure if you've seen it, but Preston Jacobs has a good video about it. I think it's called "A Vow for Myrcella." He theorizes it was likely Drey, as he got the mildest punishment (sent to the Free City of Norvos for three years, to join the service of Doran's estranged wife), Myrcella didn't trust him (he said that his friends call him "Drey," but she said that he is not her friend), and he had always wanted to marry Arianne, as did his older brother, head of house Dalt, and Knight of Lemonwood, Deziel Dalt. That last part means he not only thinks she's attractive, but also wants some of the power that comes with marrying her. I.e., for him, she is not JUST a friend. The Dalts of Lemonwood escorted Oberyn to King's Landing and are loyal to Sunspear. Arianne, while locked in her tower, thinks that Deziel Dalt was too loyal to Doran to fight for her, conveniently not thinking the same thing about Drey. However, when Areo Hotah stepped out of the riverboat at their destination, Drey was the first person to drop his weapons and told everyone that it was probably best to yield. Lastly: Darkstar. In my opinion, Darkstar is a red herring, and too obviously exposited as untrustworthy and morally ambiguous for GRRM to make him the secret mole. That would be kind of anticlimactic to introduce a bitter, cruel, and untrustworthy edgelord, only to have him betray Arianne in the same chapter. Another thing to note about Darkstar is that he may not have actually been the one to slash Myrcella's face. I forgot the logistics, but I think Drey was also near her, and everyone's eyes were on Arys Oakheart and Areo Hotah when Myrcella was slashed. It could have been that Drey pulled a knife and attacked Myrcella, then Darkstar, clearly aware that something was really off with the situation, high-tailed it out of there. I don't see why Darkstar would attack Myrcella in the first place, and it was foreshadowed that Myrcella didn't trust Drey, so their relationship already had some underlying conflict. In short, exposing the conspiracy would get him in the good graces of Doran, possibly leading to Arianne's hand in marriage or a choice seat and lands to become the Lord of, since he will likely inherit nothing otherwise.

[@brucewayne799]

It was me

[@Chrispy1990ful]

It's very clear that Tywin was poisoned with widows blood. But it wasn't Oberyn who poisoned him. It was Shae. Oberyn didn't have the kind of access to steal it. Shae however had been working as a maid. She could have stolen it herself or asked one of the other staff to do it. Oberyn also didn't have a way of slipping poison passed Tywins cup bearer. Whereas when we see Shae with him there is food and wine around for them. She likely came to Tywin after he arrested Tyrion to offer her services as a ruse to get access to him. Plenty of people had motive. Only Shae had motive, means, and the opportunity to do it.

[@jesusyvictoria]

Great video. I am covinced now that someone poisoned Tywin and he was going to die as described by Pycelle. However, I am not convinced it was Oberyn. As you said, Varys knew about Oberyn plans and that he would probably take the blame. Varys had a relationship with Shae and was supposed to help her to get away, so he could have given her a last job, and she would have definitely had the opportunity to poison Tywin, more so than Oberyn. And last, when Oberyn dies, Tywin has already been poisoned and Tyrion is rotting in a cell, Varys knows that the blame may be on him now if Tywin dies, so that would explain why he wants Tyrion to kill his father to cover him up. I am not saying it's definitely Varys, but it makes more sense being Varys in my opinion.

[@clownpendotfart]

Oberyn can't take the blame because he'd been dead for weeks without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

[@BlueAversion]

I like that although Oberyn back himself to win the duel with Gregor, he also made a back up plan in case he lost. He covered is blade with a refined poison so that if he so much a scratched Gregor in the fight then Gregor was as a good as dead. And I believe the book said it was refined in a way that it would kill Gregor painfully and slowly. Pretty nasty.

[@alowishusdavander7804]

To add to @Otsego - I would think that Oberyn would have brought his own chest full of poisons & party favors and not need to steal anything... Thats what makes me think its not Oberyn

[@jackbelmont4389]

Not only that, but of all the poisons qyburn mentions, we get a literal description of widow's blood

[@jacobbronsky464]

Ah, but in that fateful meeting, we know who is the greatest mastermind. It seems pretty obvious to me that Mace saw an opportunity and took it. The known master of poisons, harbouring a grudge obvious to all ? Oberyn was brazen, but no fool. No, the king of long cons poisoned Tywin.

[@cardenova]

Lol yes

[@clownpendotfart]

Mace couldn't have poisoned Tywin that early, because Tywin lived for such a long time later without anyone noticing he was poisoned.

[@benandrovich112]

Robert, I love these videos!! Your theories, voice and storytelling are top notch! Keep up the great work!

[@renshiwu305]

"Poison's a woman's weapon. Men kill with steel." - The Hound Oberyn poisoned the Mountain, but he did so via the blade of a longspear. The Hound's observation technically holds about a man's method of killing another man in the case of Oberyn Martell. What woman could be in the picture, though? Olenna Tyrell, Taena of Myr (who testified, falsely, in Tyrion's trial), Cersei (and what a shocker that would be), or Shae. Grand Maester Pycelle told the world what Widow's Blood can do. Anyone present in the throne room for the trial would've heard about the lethality of the poison from Pycelle's own mouth. I don't know if a Westerosi witness is required to stand outside of the court before testifying, but, if Shae had been in the courtroom, she would have been aware of Widow's Blood. Tywin had a penchant for prostitutes. He was previously the Hand of the King during the reign of Aerys II. Tyrion, as acting Hand, discovered a secret tunnel built by a previous Hand, passing underground and connecting Chataya's brothel with a stable some three blocks away. Shae, a prostitute, ingratiated herself with Tywin and then poisoned him to, one, get revenge on Tywin for letting Tyrion be under a sentence of execution, and, two, lay the groundwork for Tyrion's jailbreak. She could have gotten the Widow's Blood out of Pycelle's storeroom by ingratiating herself with him (Pycelle seems to be a horndog like Tywin).

[@robgillies2576]

Is the name of the poison also a clue, adding an element of poetic vengeance? Widow’s Blood - with Elia being a widow when she was murdered following Rhaegar’s death?

[@Deuce_Ex]

Oberyn being in town is the PERFECT cover for someone else poisoning Tywin. One thing you didn’t mention is how Doran (and presumably Oberyn) allude to an even more complete takedown of the Lannisters than merely killing Tywin. The Martells could have found a quieter way to poison Tywin any time if all they cared about was killing him… so why risk Oberyn going to kings landing just to do that, more than a decade later?. I think Oberyn killing Tywin was ultimately their plan but not before the Lannisters were publicly humiliated… seems unlikely that Oberyn would kill Tywin before he got the confession from the Mountain. But, Oberyn merely being in town creates a perfect cover story for someone else to poison Tywin, and then we have Shae spending quality time in Tywins bedroom. I maintain it was Varys, who thought he had one great cover story with Oberyn until he lucked into an even cleaner one with Tyrion.

[@jesusyvictoria]

That makes sense and also would explain why Shae was with Tywin

[@troperhghar9898]

If Oberon wanted to poison tywin why didn't he bring the widows blood with him, rather then steal it from measter pysell hoping he had a good poison?

[@nonfiction9849]

This is my thought, he has all his own poisons. He doesn’t need to steal any from Pycelle.

[@kb4903]

Doran Martel’s plan- wait over a decade, make an alliance with enemy and then serve on the council together. Brilliant. Oh and send your son across the world to try to marry a queen. lol.

[@BionicIguana]

Tywin's stinky corpse is probably a Dostoevsky reference, The Brothers Karamazov

[@ShadeoftheEvening]

I love the way Brits say "was sat" etc. Always great videos Robert. I got my Mom A World of Ice and Fire and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms for her birthday. And send her ALL of your videos🖤🐉🐦‍⬛ THANK YOU

[@VodkaHellstorm]

I wonder if the strangeness of the corpse could point to Qyburn having a go at bringing Tywin back, or just generally messing with his body.

[@Cdre_Satori]

I think the only reason for Varys to tell Tyrion where to find his dying father would be to cover his tracks after he poisoned Tywin. Because if Tywin got worse after Oberyn is dead then it couldn't have been Oberyn and if he knew Tywin was dying well why not tell Tyrion. He either didn't know Tywin was poisoned and was moving to plan B after Oberyn or he did it himself and it was better to let Tyrion take the blame than dornish

[@jimihendrix23456]

I disagree. For someone like Varys, having more layers of obfuscation pointing away from him can only help. Less likely to be caught if more people can be suspected at the different stages of the ordeal

[@clownpendotfart]

Finally someone who realizes it couldn't have been Oberyn if it happens that long after Oberyn's death.

[@GreenMMs100]

Are we absolutely certain that varys didnt just give oberyn the poison. He is a sneaky little fella, he couls have stolen it from pycells poison cabinet, disguised himself and gone to see oberyn in secret; explained that he knew what oberyns intentions were and supplied him with the means to carry them out. It get varys what he wants without implicating himself, and directing tyrion to twins room was the final nail in the coffin. All loose ends tied off and he leaves across the narrow sea with tyrion

[@clownpendotfart]

Varys never relies on any highborn people to carry out assassinations for him. And Oberyn couldn't have done it, because he died weeks before Tywin without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

[@tempertempernow]

I have been WAITING for you to make this for soooo long

[@annettestephens534]

this is a redo of an older video

[@MrKguy97]

One possible connection this video doesn't fully cover is that Varys is (probably) partially in league with Doran (the latter being tipped off about Cersei's plan to ambush Trystane from someone), and thus also with Oberyn by extension. They don't have to be entirely separate forces of subterfuge. Why else would Oberyn be so open and nonchalant about his vengeance against Tywin, if he didn't arrive informed enough to know that Varys is an ally? The Martells themselves should have no independent influence in King's Landing either as they've been separated from all of the politicking there. Additionally, how easily would Oberyn really be able to steal a poison right under the castle's nose? His movements were probably tracked throughout the castle and Tywin wasn't just going to give him an unwatched waltz around without knowing anything, unless of course Tywin fully and individually trusted in Varys to do so. Not to mention Oberyn is very recognizable, while Varys is a master of disguise. Varys is the more likely option to have stolen it or enabled the theft so then Oberyn could do the rest. Meanwhile, Doran has been secretly trying to marry Martells to Targaryens in exile. He's known their locations, kept the secret of these attempts, and all with Varys probably being aware. Varys being the most aware makes him the best person to facilitate these dealings which increases the likelihood of his involvement in the poisoning. The timing also lines up with Doran sending Quentyn to Essos. If war broke out between the Crown and Dorne because they got implicated in Tywin's death, it was time to bring Dany (and her army) into the fold.

[@usucktoo]

Great video to start playing while having dinner.

[@ash072]

Your work is top notch!

[@richardtabor8686]

OMG, I forgot I wanted to know what you thought about this idea. Perfect timing. Ty for the content.

[@MrNicoJac]

Two questions remain: - how did Oberyn steal the poison from Pycelle? (how did he know where to look?) - how much time was there between Oberyn dying and Tywin dying? (also: why would he be sloppy enough to let it become known that a poison was stolen; why not at least replace it with a vial that has the same color/contents, so that it would _only_ be found out if someone went looking _very carefully_ for it?)

[@kobarsos82]

Its actually annoying in the show, that they don't show more proof of what had happened with Tywin and Oberyn's poison. While its understandable they might not want to take anything away from Tyrion's choice, its definitely doing Oberyn dirty in all of this. RIP, regardless. Thanks for the great video.

[@clownpendotfart]

Oberyn couldn't have poisoned Tywin, because Tywin lived weeks after Oberyn died without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned. It's crackpot theorists who are trying to take something away from Tyrion by ignoring the obvious fact that he killed Tywin and a principle of literary parsimony would go against Tywin already having been fatally poisoned (which nobody in the subsequent books appears to believe).

[@CosmicCleric]

@@clownpendotfart "because Tywin lived weeks after Oberyn died" Has this been explicitly stated in the novels/series? Also, how long does it take the Widow's poison to work, has that been stated explicitly?

[@clownpendotfart]

@@CosmicCleric Search for "ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof" on Google Docs. The note for Tyrion's last chapter of A Storm of Swords says "This is probably even later. Jaime says that Tyrion's beheading has been scheduled for tomorrow. Tyrion's voice has grown "hoarse from disuse." In Dorne there's at least a fortnight between news of Oberyn's death and news of Tywin's death." What poison acts like a time-delayed bomb, being unnoticed for weeks until later it kills someone? The claim is that Widows Wail stops people from defecating, but if Tywin had been experiencing that for weeks, he surely would have noticed and would be consulting with someone like Pycelle about it rather than having Shae waiting in his bed for him to get back from the privy.

[@fiadhgrimm8197]

It's really not unheard of for a poison to do permanent damage that takes a prolonged period of time to take noticiable effect. As well, how rare do you really think it is for people to have bowel/colon or bladder problems in the asoiaf world? I doubt it is unheard of, even and potentially especially for lord and ladies whom may have richer and more decadent diet. Finally, to reiterate what another commenter stated, where is it explicitly stated how long between Obyrn and Tywin's meeting and his death by the hands of Tyrion?

[@MacAttack001]

Amazing video. Your calculation are flawless. Well done! :)

[@giggityguy]

Here's the follow-up question: if someone HAD poisoned Tywin, what was their endgame? If Tywin had died of poison and not being shot, all suspicion would likely have immediately fallen on Oberyn. After all, those in the know would have been able to discover all that we know. Oberyn had means, motive, and opportunity, and seems the obvious suspect considering his reputation as a poisoner and his loud announcements of his intention to get revenge. So whether Oberyn poisoned Tywin or someone else did, the outcome is that it would clearly LOOK like Oberyn did. This would immediately inflame tensions between the Lannisters and the Martells, and by extension, between the crown and all of Dorne. It would likely draw Dorne into diplomatic or military conflict with the Lannisters, something that Oberyn wanted but Doran did not. It could have easily forced Doran's hand, if only in defense. So who benefits from Dorne jumping in? Oberyn, since he's wanted war for years, and he might even have a chance to push Doran aside if he appears too reluctant to fight. Varys, since he doesn't want competent Lannisters running the kingdoms. And in a roundabout way, the Tyrells, since while they're technically allied to the Lannisters, Tywin's death and a war with Dorne would weaken Lannister rule and occupy the Lannister army, allowing the Tyrells to step into the stronger position.

[@laser8389]

The idea that it was a long-acting poison that replicates extreme but otherwise natural symptoms would make it kind of tricky to say conclusively that it was poison. Sure, Maester Pycelle absolutely knew that Widow's Blood kills in this way and may have been able to point out both that his was missing and that a known poisoner and enemy of Tywin's had come to the city at just the right time, and this may have been enough to bring scrutiny, but there's no slam-dunk CSI evidence here. Hell, just knowing about the poison and admitting to having had some but it's no longer there could have put suspicion on Pycelle, especially since Cersei was getting even more paranoid by that time and no longer considered Pycelle useful. Not to say that looking at the warmonger angle is invalid, it's exactly what's happening in several other storylines.

[@R0CKDRIG0]

Does Oberyn want full on war though? Why wouldn't he stop when the 3 men responsible were dead?

[@clownpendotfart]

The problem is that, as much as Varys might want to, he can't blame Oberyn because he's been dead for too long.

[@Kubinda12345]

The only problem with this theory is that Tywin wasn't stupid and he knew Oberyn's reputation as well so he would've been extra careful about drinking or eating something around Oberyn.

[@saraa.4295]

They did have breakfast together..and tywin surely drank at the wedding, where oberyn was. Tywin was smart, but he believed his own hype. He believed that everyone was afraid of him.

[@nont18411]

Tywin is smart but he’s not that smart

[@DoakFelix-qr8uw]

Just as Tywin did not kill Elia nor her children, but only gave the orders, so did Oberyn kill Tywin. The deed was performed by Shae a.k.a. Sarella sand, Oberyn’s neice. One of his underlings had already poisoned Tyrion’s cream sauce for the pie, but Joffrey ate it, and died before the Tyrells could even drop the poison into his wine.

[@yggdrasil2]

Don't forget the fact that Shae actually fell asleep while Tywin was on the shitter.

[@MariaVosa]

The biggest problem with the Oberyn theory is the theft of Widow's Blood from the Grand Maester. Why would an expert like Oberyn, who clearly came prepared both with his own stash and the intent of killing Tywin, need to pilfer from the Maester? I'd say it is far more likely that someone used Oberyn's presence as a convenient way of poisoning The Hand, knowing that suspicion would inevitably fall on Oberyn. I also wonder if we know how quickly the poison works? Shae was present and could have done the deed, on assignment from someone (Varys, Littlefinger?).

[@clownpendotfart]

No, the biggest problem is the timing. Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned over all that time.

[@twinsen1949]

After watching this I feel like it's almost obvious that Oberyn DID poison Tywin

[@astrinymris9953]

There's only one problem with your theory: *If Tyrion knew that shooting Tywin would shorten his suffering, why would he do it?* Tyrion hated his family with a burning passion by then, so you'd think the thought of a slow. agonizing, humiliating death for Tywin would have thrilled him. Yes, Tyrion wanted a clue about where to look for Tysha, but he had to realize the chances of Tywin remembering anything about the movements of someone who was a nonentity to him a decade later was marginal, if he'd even taken enough interest in her fate to notice. And the chances of Tywin being willing to tell Tyrion if he had known are miniscule. No, Tyrion came to kill Tywin, full stop. Though I do have a theory about who actually administered the poison to Tywin. I mean, yes the man dined with Oberyn, but I'm sure that Tywin, knowing that the Red Viper hated him with a passion, would have been very careful to watch his food and drink like a hawk. So how did Oberyn poison Tywin? Simple- he bribed Shae to do it! Shae probably had no more love for Tywin than she had for Tyrion. She also knew that her knowing the truth about Tyrion's actual innocence might well result in her disappearing after Tywin tired of her. And if she hadn't realized that on her own, Oberyn would have helpfully pointed it out to her. Gaining a slew of money for poisoning Tywin while saving her own posterior... of course Shae would do it. That's my headcanon. and I'm stickin' to it. 😉

[@Krisliet]

It even makes sense narratively. It's a classic vengeance story: man sets out on getting revenge by killing the people who wrong him and, in the end, he gets his revenge, but loses his life for it. If Tywin dies with Oberyn having no influence in it, then it breaks the classical trope and makes Oberyn travel look more like a fail.

[@samhobbs9116]

Everything else done by Dorne was a fail why not this one?

[@pankratos5017]

Then why would Oberyn steal the poison instead of bringing his own? The theft would have been high-risk, the missing poison noticed, and it could easily lead back to him.

[@clownpendotfart]

What are you talking about? Tyrion is explicitly the one who killed Tywin, weeks after Oberyn died. The (incorrect) theory is this video is that Tywin would have died anyway in a counterfactual where Tyrion didn't kill him, but Oberyn still has no influence in the actual timeline where Tyrion kills him.

[@NukeMarine]

You missed one bit in that Tyrion gathered a poisoned mushrooms at Illyrio's manse at first to commit suicide if captured, until using them to kill overseer Nurse. Some could say this points to Tyrion potentially poisoning Tywin, but Tyrion is a POV and gives no thought to that aspect. But, Tyrion never tells us in his thoughts that he poisoned Nurse. He just mentions taking joy in feeding Nurse the mushroom meal. Bit like Cersei or Jaime are prime candidates to hiring the cat's paw, but their POV removes them as suspects to the readers. But, whose POV were we in when discussion about Joffrey being the one to send the cat's paw pops up? Only Tyrion and Jaime ponder on the matter leaving Cersei still suspect. Given Cersei never ponders on what readers accept as her killing her best friend by pushing her down the well, it's easy to think that Cersei would not ponder on sending a failed assassin especially after Bran was "killed" in A Clash of Kings.

[@laser8389]

If Tyrion had poisoned Tywin, why shoot him?

[@ashelred]

The one problem with this theory is that Tywin knew that Oberyn wanted to kill him and was a master of poisons,so he would have been careful around Oberyn. Varys had his little birds to introduce the poison into something Tywin consumed.

[@clownpendotfart]

And Varys was alive during the weeks between Oberyn's death and Tywin's, so if he did poison Tywin he could have done so much later so that nobody had time to notice.

[@ricoc9492]

Hi Robert, where did your playlist of Robert, Rhaegar, Lyanna go? I loved those videos

[@JaalKiriam]

I think you've missed Martin's point when it comes to Oberyn having the victory. You are right when you say that, if only Oberyn had stayed clear of the Mountain... I would suggest, though, that he and Tyrion are mirrors of each other in this. The idea that Tywin would have died without Tyrion's self-dooming actions is completely right, but that doesn't mean that Tyrion was actually mercy-killing his father. It means that, like Oberyn, Tyrion ruined his own victory by following his heart in this matter. Tywin's greatest desire at this point was for his legacy, both as a man and for his family. How would he have felt to die in agony over several days (if not weeks) while his legacy withered without his presence to micromanage this new king. He would have lived long enough to see his grandson fall under the sway of, if not overt enemies, at least not-friends. He would have surely known who had really killed him and why and that it was, ultimately, his own fault. Instead he died as a martyr to an evil aberration of a son (in the public's eyes, at least) and the crumbling of his legacy was ascribed to unworthy successors rather than his own evil coming home to roost.

[@clownpendotfart]

The idea that Tywin would have died if not for Tyrion is not "completely right". Nobody thought Tywin was poisoned at the time, and this was weeks after Oberyn's death.

[@justin1730]

If Oberyn had poisoned Tywin, why would he care about the Mountain confessing? There would be no need for Tywin to stand trial because he was a dead man walking. As a self-described bloodthirsty man, why would he use a poisoned spear to fight the Mountain, but kill Tywin by presumably poisoning his drink? My guess is that Varys planned it and Shae carried it out by seducing Tywin.

[@tiredhippo82]

Could littlefinger have done it? I know there’s not loads of evidence, but he did craft a plan to kill joffery with poison (that was stolen from pycelles store). He does like chaos, did have some issues with cersi and maybe thought it was time to damage the lannisters. Plus Tywin was getting in the way of the Tyrell’s plans so maybe they were involved as well. For the record I don’t especially believe this, but I think it’s about as likely as varys

[@aidenowen9221]

It makes sense that Oberyn want to kill Tywin. But, would he have stolen the poison which could easily be discovered and when Pycelle discovers he was indeed poisoned all fingers would point at Oberyn. He was vengeful but he wasn't stupid, I think he would have, at least, made his own poison, he is a half-maester after all or used a lesser known more subtle poison.

[@msc8090]

11:15 I think you leave out the one other (for me) realistic suspect: Olenna, or more broadly, the Tyrells. Tyrion is doomed at this point and killing Tywin gets them rid of the one capable Lannister still around. They are known to get rid of their enemies using poison (which ist, btw. afaik called "a woman's weapon") and now a known poison master arrives in the city? Perfect alibi! Tbh I do think it was Oberyn, however the Tyrells had almost as much motive, opportunity and capability of getting rid of him.

[@clownpendotfart]

It couldn't have been Oberyn. He died weeks before Tywin, and nobody noticed Tywin was poisoned over all that time.

[@kurtismoore6700]

@@clownpendotfartbro you’ve replied to nearly every comment give it a break

[@toms169]

There is also the matter of timing that you didn‘t address. Tywin dying from poison while Oberyn (a vengeful master of poisons) is in the city makes it too obvious that Oberyn did it, which would put him and probably all of his family in danger. Therefore, in my opinion, Oberyn didn‘t resort to poisoning Tywin until he had resolved to stand for Tyrion in the trial by combat. Even if he was confident in his abilities, he will have known that there was no guarantee that he could beat the Mountain. So he poisoned Tywin before the trial, just in case he lost, to make sure he got his revenge. It‘s the same reason he laced his weapons in poison: he knew that he only had to cut the Mountain once and vengeance would be his, even if the Mountain were to beat him.

[@clownpendotfart]

That timing doesn't work either. Tywin lived for weeks afterward with nobody noticing he was poisoned. You'd have to push the timing even later, well after Oberyn died.

[@toms169]

@@clownpendotfart Fair point. But we don‘t really know how long the poison takes to take effect, do we?

[@clownpendotfart]

@@toms169 What poison is unnoticeable for weeks, but later causes death? And this is not a mater of continually being poisoned with small doses, there must be no additional poisoning in between the last time Oberyn interacted with Tywin and Tywin's death.

[@toms169]

@@clownpendotfart Yes, such poisons exist: thallium, aconitine, ricin, …

[@jonathangomez9548]

It’s not blaming him it’s honoring him for achieving a long time goal 😂

[@KevinHwoarang]

In the books most likely, but I don't think Oberyn himself poisoned him, I believe it was Oberyn's hidden dagger: Shae. I truly believe Shae is Sarella

[@erikanders3343]

Possibility not explored very often is the queen of Thorns. She has a lot of motivation for getting rid of Tiwin. One with him gone she could easily have Marjorie annul the wedding to cerci. Freeing her house to have a future. I could also see you embarrass doing the same or assisting.

[@daniell1483]

I question the idea that Tywin ordered the death of Elia. Tywin in a frank conversation with Tyrion denies the blame, only admitting that he never told Gregor to not kill Elia. And it makes sense that Gregor and Amory slew Elia; having not been told to leave Elia alone, Gregor would have seen her as fair game. This makes sense: Gregor and Amory's mission was to kill the children of Rhaegar, nothing more. And Gregor later admits in the trial by battle that he did kill Elia to stop her screaming, something we know set Gregor off at least one other time with Pia, knocking out her teeth.

[@clownpendotfart]

I think that's correct, but irrelevant. Ordering the death of her children basically implies her death unless she's separated and deliberately taken as a living hostage (which is not an order he gave, even though it would benefit Robert's regime to have leverage against the Martells).

[@daniell1483]

@@clownpendotfart Being devil's advocate for a second, I suspect Tywin wanted Elia alive but unharmed for the very reason you raise: Elia would have been the perfect hostage until Dorne got on board with the new Baratheon regime. However Tywin communicated the mission to Gregor and Amory, the responsibility ultimately rests with Tywin as they were his vassals.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@daniell1483 I think the issue is that while it would be good for Robert's regime, that's not the same as Tywin. Tywin hadn't yet come to any arrangement with Robert, and wouldn't necessarily expect any benefit of that himself. The more important thing was to decisively break with the Targaryens, and adding infanticide to his sack of the city helped that more than a hostage would. A hostage who could testify about who specifically broke in and killed her children is a headache for him.

[@daniell1483]

@@clownpendotfart I don't deny it would be a headache for Robert; that's not the point. Elia had huge value as a political prisoner. If Tywin had her as a hostage, he could have come into Robert's court with one hell of a bargining chip that would force the most rebellious province into compliance with the new order - Robert's order. Elia's death benefited nobody and gave Dorne a reason to burn with revenge for several years. And both of the Martel princes specifically cite Elia's death as a reason to NOT partner with the present day Lannister-Tyrell order. That says nothing about the various plots this incentivized for the Martells (raising Dorne for Viserys, the supposed marriage pact regardless of its validity, etc.).

[@saraa.4295]

I assume he did.. There is quite some hinting at it in the text and it is within Oberyns character to take anything from Tywin he cherishes most..which is his dignity, his reputation, and if he were not shot he would have ended up vomiting shit...there is hardly a less dignified way to go! Question is: will it have sny significance in the story? Would it affect tyrion to learn from it? Or cercei? Or does george just enjoy to leave us with unsolved conspiracy theories just for funs sake?

[@clownpendotfart]

Oberyn died weeks before Tywin. The Dornish don't hear about Tywin's death until a fortnight after Tywin. He's not to blame for such conspiracy theories, fans who ignore the timeline (and the parsimony of just Tyrion being responsible for killing Tywin) are.

[@saraa.4295]

@@clownpendotfart why do you think there were weeks between the trial of combat and tyrion shooting tywin? We have no indication of that and it would be quite unusual to wait that long for an execution. Besides, death by closed bowels is a pretty slow death. But i think you misunderstood me about the conspiracy theories: i didn't mean Oberyn wanted them, but that george did ;)

[@clownpendotfart]

@@saraa.4295 From the "ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof" note on that last Tyrion chapter: "This is probably even later. Jaime says that Tyrion's beheading has been scheduled for tomorrow. Tyrion's voice has grown "hoarse from disuse." In Dorne there's at least a fortnight between news of Oberyn's death and news of Tywin's death."

[@saraa.4295]

@@clownpendotfart yeah i just reread the last chapter of tyrion.. A voice goes hoarse if you don't speak for a few days... And a two week time lapse is not so surprising.. Elaria sand would make sure there is a raven but leave the capital with oberyn rather quick. But informing the dornish was probably more an afterthought after tywins death.. George is, as usual, pretty vague with time. And again..a slow poison might easily take a week or more to be lethal.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@saraa.4295 It's not just "more than week to be lethal". Jon Arryn was known to be sick before he died. Nobody remembers that of Tywin. Nobody notes that he was absent from any duties or appeared unwell at all.

[@sfrink1425]

Maybe Varys supplied the poison to Oberyn?

[@clownpendotfart]

No, Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, and nobody noticed Tywin was poisoned over that time period. Theories blaming Oberyn just do not work at all.

[@natie3322]

Shae did it. She was Oberons daughter, a Sand Snake.

[@kirby7294]

I just can't see Oberyn Martell, the man who died because his desire for a public display of revenge got the better of him, poisoning Tywin. It doesn't feel like enough of a message. He certainly had the motive and means, but it just doesn't fit his character. In this instance, that is. I can't imagine he would deny himself the satisfaction of a more public killing. If he wanted to kill Tywin in secret, he had plenty of chances and a man as crafty as he is, he would've gotten away with it. He wanted to send a message with his revenge against the Lannisters. Poisoning Tywin wouldn't achieve that.

[@clownpendotfart]

Yes, he wanted "justice", not secret revenge.

[@kirby7294]

@clownpendotfart He wanted revenge, but look at everything he did for it. He is open about his desire for revenge and he openly tells the Lannister's that it is coming. It doesn't make sense for him to want public displays of revenge just to poison Tywin in secret. And yes, he used his misguided sense of "justice" to achieve it and it got him killed.

[@apstrike]

Oberyn failed to get vengeance, at least on Tywin personally. A noble secretly poisoning another noble for a public wrong isn't vengeance. Such vengeance has to be public. If his brother Doran doesn't know for sure whether Oberyn succeeded then he didn't succeed. Likewise Tyrion didn't commit a mercy killing. We obviously have his POV chapters afterwards and there's no thought of mercy, only guilt. Had Tyrian done a mercy killing then his mind would be full of failed self justifications for that course of action. He wouldn't just be wracked with guilt.

[@david1919pp]

is this not a reupload?

[@Cecil_Harvey]

Yea he’s out of material

[@Chris-cs2rw]

​@@Cecil_Harveymake your own content then 😂😂

[@Cecil_Harvey]

@@Chris-cs2rw I have, just not videos. Don’t got time for that.

[@wr2907]

I think Varys, Doran isn’t a warrior he needed Oberyn to lead the Dornish Army for young Griff. He put Joffreys crossbow for Tyrion and gave Tywin poison the makes him Sit longtime in one location every night around the same time. Also using the crossbow disguises the poison so Oberyn isn’t a suspect. Like staging Kevin’s death.

[@ZombieOfBerlin]

Is this a re-upload? I swear, I watched that video before and then suddenly it had vanished.

[@sockmonkeyjg]

The irony of Tywin being full of sh*t is hilarious

[@OcarinaSapphr-]

While I naturally wouldn't discount Oberyn being *the reason* for his death, my headcanon for why no one else cottoned on to anything being wrong, & arresting or otherwise mitigating the embarrassing aftermath, until it was far too late...? Two ghosts from Tywin's past- two young women of ancient but disgraced houses, the only admitted survivors of two proud families that tangled with the Lannisters- & in defeat, after the destruction of their families- were condemned to the Silent Sisters (who have long prepared bodies for burial, & *would* have had the experience to detect poison affecting a body, & alerted others- had they a mind to....)

[@clownpendotfart]

Oberyn doesn't work because he died weeks before Tywin, without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned during all that time.

[@PeterT-i1w]

Oberyn knew that even if he wins the duel against the Mountain, the situation would be so awkward that he could likely never sit next to Tywin again, so he had to poison him beforehand.

[@srenkibsgaard9136]

I find the spider the most likely candidate. First tywin. Then his brother kevin....

[@megmca]

I think the analysis of this series of events shows the relative youth of the audience. The reason Tyrion knew Tywin would be on the privy is because that is where Tywin always was at that hour. Probably going back to the years of Robert’s rule when Tywin and Tyrion were both residing at Casterly Rock. I think it is easily more likely that Tywin had the same condition many men experience as they age: irregular bladder and bowel movements.

[@ThommyofThenn]

One thing i've never seen discussed is what Tywin was actually doing in the context of the environment Tyrion confronts him in. Having a poo is usually a private thing but here is Tywin, probably doing hushed power grunts while the bedroom isn't that far away. The fact that Tywin was going then, indicates he knew Shae would be staying over and holding back all night would absolutely not help. Why would Shae be staying all night? I think she was intimidated into doing whatever she thought would keep her alive around a monster like that, but she could have been there as Tywin's lover in truth. To this end, Tywin relieving his burdens can be read as a sign of intimacy with Shae, or it could be he is extremely self-loathing to the extent that he feels the need to fantasise he's his own son. Neither is a particularly good look, but I was delighted when he died like that for dozens of reasons besides those.

[@josephmort4039]

Everyone poops. We don't only poop when people poison us.

[@whitepeter619]

...so the body basically evaporating in front of people??

[@josephmort4039]

@@whitepeter619 Everyone decays too. And Doran and Oberyn had plans for killing Tywin. Slipping him some poison so he died in a few days would've been far too easy for him to die.

[@whitepeter619]

@josephmort4039 yeah, except no other character started smoking and melting through the gaps of their armor the day after they died, especially from a crossbow bolt, but ok.

[@laser8389]

It's the lack of poop that was the work of the poison. The pooping was from the crossbow bolt.

[@whitepeter619]

@@laser8389 the crossbow bolt, made him start melting?? 🤔

[@lawrencereid2767]

First to take the Black 🖤

[@Jazzinthedark84]

Me: Ah finally, a video where Robert won't butcher the pronunciation of "Viserys" Me at 15:03: oh for fuck's sake

[@ognjen89]

I think that the single fact that Tywin died on the privy proves to me that the poison was starting to take effect lol

[@Cecil_Harvey]

Joanna poisoned Tywin 20 years ago. That’s why he’s been constipated all the time and has jokes made about him taking so long on the bathroom. Where does all the Lannisters’ gold come from? Tywin shits it out. That’s why he spends so long in the privy.

[@MammonDaughter]

Is the poison Widows Blood 2:40 or Widows Tears 10:29 ? You said both in the vid and it's very confusing.

[@apacalypsagon3758]

Oh an oldie but a goodie.

[@christopherkenessey2167]

Timeline makes sense also because he put poison on the blades to make sure that the mountain would die as long as he cut him once. He wouldn’t have allowed Tywin to get away with it if he were killed in battle with the mountain. He would have had to poison him either before or at the trial.

[@BlondeBarbarian]

One thing I don't quite understand: Why would Oberyn need to _steal_ the widow's blood? Wouldn't he have brought the poison with him? Hell, we KNOW he brought _some_ kind of poison because he used it on the Mountain. So why not just bring the poison with him and avoid leaving a trail that leads back to him? I find it hard to believe that Oberyn has been planning this for so long only for him to forget to bring enough poison to do the job. Also, how could he have known Pycelle would even have the poison he needs? The whole thing doesn't add up imo

[@laser8389]

I'm 100% with you on this. I was honestly trying to come up with some reason that stealing the poison would be less suspicious or easier, but I can't make it work. The closest I can figure is that he used up what he had with him on Tywin and had to sneak some from Pycelle for The Mountain, but even then it's thin.

[@ARandomGuy24]

If it was Oberyn I think it only makes sense that Varys stole it then gave it to Oberon setting up an obvious fall guy in case things go wrong. In case Oberon stuffed it up somehow he tells Tyrion how to get to Tywin's quarters to try to kill him then lets Tyrion take his shot. He sets up multiple contingencies in case things go wrong all the while setting up fall guys to take the blame. Probably had one of his little birds waiting to kill Tywin then frame Tyrion if he didn't have the heart to go through with it.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@ARandomGuy24 Varys never relies on any highborn people to carry out assassinations for him. And Oberyn couldn't have done it, because he died weeks before Tywin without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

[@LOT9T]

I like this theory Video Robert. TY i say he did, in fact, get the job done!

[@drpiv]

Oberyn was one of the most memorable characters.

[@spyderdogg6248]

Tywin just ate some bad chicken