INEOS Fusilier - two new electric 4x4 options for offroaders

#INEOS #fusilier #ineosfusilier
INEOS have given us the Grenadier and the Quartermaster, and now they too must offer an electric vehicle. Here it is, the Fusilier and in this video I take a look at everything we know about the Fusilier and explain how EV drivetrains work.
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[@ElderStatesman-pi3lc]

Great video - I’m a Grenadier owner in the US. Very interested in the Fusilier ReX as a “run around town do some gravel roads and go skiing” scenario - something for my wife as her daily. It should be capable but doesn’t have to be a tank and don’t expect it to measure up to the Grenadier off-road capabilities. In the US and Canada, Argentina, Brazil, Australia and Africa, an off-road EV is a non-starter. The Rivians are really only being used by soccer moms around town. In other words, “good enough” performance for the Fusilier will be, you guessed it, good enough.

[@jameshoward9700]

Nice roundup of EV tradeoffs. Will be interesting to see the progress and what powertrain they finally settle on. Good on 'em for trying - an electric, light utility 4x4 would be useful in rural areas (and popular in suburban ones). I'd heard the rumours about this, but expected something smaller (more Mini Countryman). Cost will be the big issue...

[@johnny_w]

Thank you for your clear explanation ! 👍 Here in the Netherlands, the government lets us pay very high taxes on cars with ICE engines. The Ineos Grenadier costs here 170.000 euros, a ridiculous price, compared to for example, a Jeep Wrangler 4xe or a Defender PHEV, which costs about 95.000 euros. So, I am happy too with the development of 4x4 with EV engines. Could you compare the Ineos fusilier with the Rivian and the Mercedes G, which also have/get EV engines (4 engines, one at each wheel) ? Toyota is also busy with a new small "Jimny-type" 4x4, are there allready specs of that car ? 4x4 greetz from the Netherlands 👋

[@raywhitehead730]

You get what you vote for.

[@andrewjones-productions]

It seems to me that through no fault of Ineos, their debut to market as a car manufacturer was too late. They entered the marketplace with a vehicle that was supposed to be their version of the successor to the old LR Defender. Not a copy, but a vehicle that held onto the traditional build and concept of that legendary vehicle. With the Fusilier, that concept is now largely forgotten and have designed something that echoes the new Defender and practically almost all 4WD vehicles on the market. The powertrain being of course different. I am now failing to see where they differentiate and have to question the point of Ineos as it has now been seemingly lost. Even though the current Grenadier will survive in some markets around the globe for longer than it will in places such as Europe.

[@jonahfastre]

One thing I'd like to add, is that they seem to have put the reverse camera in the actual middle this time edit: also I bet if they stick with BMW, the range extender will be the 1.5l 3 cilinder found in many of the small BMWs and Minis

[@davidholmes3323]

As an aside Diesel Electic Locomotives have been around for years. The principle makes sense for remote touring 4WD.

[@RichardCostello-wj8gy]

Low speed diesel electric, definetly overlooked in the automotive/car world.

[@imnotusingmyrealname4566]

​@@RichardCostello-wj8gyNo. It's stupid. With a torque converter you can do all the low speed maneuvering you want. The only vehicles that use it are trains, some ships and mining trucks. Regular heavy equipment is mechanical or hydraulic Even tanks don't use a hybrid drivetrain because it adds so much weight, reduces driving range and just offers no benefit. They have intricate transmissions for mechanical neutral steering.

[@pault7977]

A couple of things. #1, the fusilier at first glance appears to be a slightly smaller, city-bias entry-level vehicle.More for the lifestyle buyer than those in need of a serious rig with long-term durability. #2,In the lead-up to the Grenadier launch the assumptions were that the Grenadier would cost much less than it does today. Where do you think the fusilier will be price wise? #3, This surprised and disappointed me. Ineos is invested in Hydrogen - both as a chemical company and with their Hyundai partnership - Do you think the Battery EV is a temporary solution to get into the market while a hydrogen fuel infrastructure is slowly built out??

[@azieahmad1831]

Thank you very much for the explanation. I await the battery improvements and/or revolution that will alleviate the range anxieties for the true EVs. I live in the north of Maine and there isn't much support maintaining an EV. For now, I am happy with a plug-in hybrid. The small all-gas/petrol is the occasional transporter.

[@GonePh1shing]

It's a pity this isn't a diesel-electric. I love the idea of a range extended 4x4 EV, but petrol can often be quite scarce in certain remote parts of the world. For example, diesel is the only fuel available in many parts of remote Australia.

[@pauldavies4650]

Nice vid again. Thnaks. Government regs force EV production. One point in opposition I will raise is that had Ineos made the Grenadier an IFS vehicle, I would never have purchased one, and I imagine a larger chunk of its current market also would have tapped out and it would have failed miserably.

[@L2SFBC]

Fair point Paul but if it had huge payload it may sell more?

[@pauldavies4650]

@L2SFBC I personally dont think so, certainly not if it was at the expense of solid axels. I feel the base that would choose a greater payload over solid axels would be smaller than those of us who just want a genuine solid axel vehicle. There are other vehicles that do this. The old ladder frame, dual solid axel construction, with some reasonable comfort features and power, was the Grenadier's wild card and hole to fill in the market. Otherwise, it would basically be a New Defender. I have no impericacal evidence to back my thoughts up. it's just my own purchase reasoning and owner discussion If Ineos had gone with lighter axels, thinner guage steel, non-waxed, and smaller chassis, lighter body pannels, etc, to increase payload by 200kgs would it have been better? It would probably look better on paper, but long term durabilty with a desired 25-year design life... We probably would not have known and been singing higher praises, but I don't think it would have been as good as it is now. I personally am supportive of the design decisions and compromises they made. Apologies for the rambling. I just wanted to add context for my thoughts. Cheers Paul

[@L2SFBC]

See your point, makes sense...we'll never know without parallel universe!

[@philhealey4443]

​@L2SFBC Which is surely a nail in the coffin for long range EV off-roaders by adding battery weight in markets where car driving licence weight classifications apply. Leaving less payload due to legislation, not any technical barrier to designing in more payload.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes. Time those limits were increased. A 2t vehicle is now no longer large.

[@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080]

This is what I expected. Well except the independent suspension. Magna Steyr makes an electric beam axle, so that is what I expected on this with similar suspension geometry to the Grenadier. 1). I expect it is a Grenadier body with no spare ( an optional spare on the door if you want it) tire. 2). I expected a BEV [á la F-150 Lightning] with a modified frame to hold a 120 kWh battery 3). After the BEV I expected a petrol r-EX because it is a simple technology but maybe Ineos with move it forward with a Liquid Piston Engine or an OPOC engine as the generator. 4). Next could be a LPG or Propane version of the REX engine. 5). Last would be to replace the engine & fuel tank on the REX platform with a Fuel Cell & Hydrogen Capsule, to make a hydrogen vehicle. Essentially a pi-HY-EV.

[@gregj7916]

Be nice if Sir Jim ensured the normal central gauge cluster returned in the name of safety.

[@mikewho9964]

In realistic terms all EV derivatives hit the " the wall " at about 380km range - if you add more batteries you add more weight - so far EV usage has shown batteries dont like heavy work loads so even 400 km means 200km to the outback and 200km back in - i think the hydrogen solution even with its storage issues is a better bet - so do JCB ( excavators ) and they know a bit about heavy work loads ! As usual a great discussion - thanks

[@wohnzimmeraquarium4174]

The supposed hype surrounding electric mobility in Europe is not based on real customer demand but on legal regulations to avoid CO2 emissions. If a manufacturer's vehicle fleet produces too much CO2, as determined by complex rules, considerable fines are due. Manufacturers are therefore practically forced to push vehicles onto the market at almost any price.

[@jonahfastre]

But if they don’t sell, electric cars their fleet CO2 isn’t gonna be reduced, so either they have to make electric more affordable, or lobby the governments to put in incentives for people to buy electric. Here’s the problem, in Germany for instance they started decreasing the incentives as they couldn’t keep subsidizing it, result electric vehicle sales went down by 90%. People don’t want electric governements do

[@sliedude]

Great video thanks. Would be interesting to see how much extra range the petrol engine/generator supplies. Given our distances in Australia, I can't see a bEV or rEX being practical for longer overlanding. Good on them for trying though.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes would depend on fuel tank size. I would guess it'd be good for all up maybe 700km....will try and find out.

[@georgecarousos6735]

Kind of worried that Ineos hasn't perfected the IC version yet let alone supply the demand but is spending resources on an EV. If they do go forward with the EV platform I'd recommend only making non road legal units for commercial/mine/industrial markets to start. Perfect the vehicle there before making a consumer version and putting it in the publics hands.

[@andrewhurstcars]

Hi Robert, the Dakar winning Audi isn’t a series hybrid - the third electric motor is connected to the engine which acts purely as a generator, the engine doesn’t directly drive the car.

[@L2SFBC]

It also has a battery though, so would that make it....well, what exactly?

[@andrewhurstcars]

@@L2SFBCto use your categories it would be a range extender - I only commented as it you put it in the same category as a normal hybrid which can use ICE as a primary source, which the Audi Dakar cannot.

[@L2SFBC]

I think this illustrates the complexity of the categories! The Audi has a tiny battery, so I don't consider it a range extender, more a petrol-powered vehicle that uses electric motors to turn the wheels. Whereas the Fusilier has a decent sized battery, but has a petrol engine to charge it as needed. The question then becomes; given the only difference between a series hybrid and a range extender is the relative size of battery/ICE...when is which, which!

[@andrewhurstcars]

@@L2SFBC I think it’s primarily a BEV, with an ICE generator (not connected to drivetrain like a Prius), so yes a range extender. The Audi is a superb package, by having an 52kw battery electric drivetrain they get the best traction control and driveability, and use less fuel over a race distance than an ICE car, by having a 2.0 DTM race engine running at constant revs as a generator when needed. I think that’s what the new Defender should have been, a proper battery with all the electric motor traction tech advantages, and an efficient ICE motor to top up when needed.

[@andrewhurstcars]

@@L2SFBC the original BMW i3 range extender only had a 33kWh battery, so I don’t think the size of the battery matters, it’s still primarily a BEV drivetrain, with an ICE generator.

[@mdharrisuiuc]

Diesel/electric drivetrains are robust and have been around for over a century. I personally think ICE/electric locomotive style drivetrains are the way forward for automobiles. It allows for the ICE engine to operate at it's most efficient, and a small/medium sized pack will be all that's needed, as when the battery is depleted the vehicle can still drive. When hub motors get cheap/robust enough I hope we will start to see some very innovative vehicle designs.

[@AquaMarine1000]

It will be interesting to see the wading depth specs. To add, I think this model will be taken up by suburban mums doing the school drop-offs.

[@L2SFBC]

Will be very good I'm guessing.

[@AquaMarine1000]

@@L2SFBC Water proofing will be a challenge considering boats are made to not leak, but do.

[@paultucker4923]

Soccer dads are as common as soccer mums in 2024 Fusilier or Amarok? Kids need so much sports gear now you wont fit them in a Morris 1100.

[@imnotusingmyrealname4566]

That was unexpected.

[@lowtech_1]

Not sure if it would be of interest to enough of your viewers, but just got a dog trailer (steering axle at front of trailer). Cant find anything on You Tube on how to back them.Going to have to try find a big clear area to try it.

[@L2SFBC]

If I can get one, I'll show how to back them!

[@Pandora882]

Looks fantastic only. thing missing is an engine.

[@jonahfastre]

Didn’t you watch the video, it literally has an engine, but not in the conventional way, the engine is used solely to charge the batteries, but has no transmission or connection to the wheels, the wheels are only powered by electric motors.

[@Pandora882]

Don’t worry it’s just our English sense of humour I. I have a Grenadier

[@jonahfastre]

@@Pandora882 ahhhh okay, how’s the grenadier, I’ve been looking at the Quartermaster, I’ve already driven the grenadier, but how’s your experience with it

[@pinkpotato1]

The reason for this is because ofthe EU imposing huge fines on companies if they sell too many high polluting vehicles so companies have to sell a set amount of EV's and Hybrids so they dont have to be fined.

[@FirestarterAJ12]

So the Grenadier was a Defender clone, this looks like a G-Wagen clone

[@nirfz]

Watching this, i kind of hope you get a chance to try the electric G Wagon when it's produced. They said they put the batteries into the frame to save space. Which i htink is a bad choice because i imagine a battery replacement is pertty impossible to do, and the battery will degrade like with any EV battery over time and use. (Being from the area they are built, i have seen a few of them being factory tested on the road and on the special G-wagon testrack. Btw.: the Grenadier has been, and the Fusilier will also be tested on this track as the Grenadier was develloped here, and the Fusilier is said to even be built here.) As for the Fusilier: what if the spare is in the "frunk"? i mean, yes they need space for the range extender and it's cooling, but if that is only a really small engine, maybe they do it like Citroen did decades ago... ;-)

[@L2SFBC]

You could be right...just no details, but I do hope there's a spare somewhere!

[@addictiveaussie]

So, the Fusilier is effectively the same technology as a diesel electric as in the case of Edison motors, but on a smaller scale and petrol instead.

[@davidholmes3323]

I was hoping for quad motor, I know it adds complexity, weight and expense. Ineos are not budget vehicles now. Hoping for a hard-core Rivian R1S. Mind you any new vehicle is out of my price bracket ATM.

[@L2SFBC]

I think KISS might be their thinking. See my EV drivetrain video for the complexity.

[@Jackkamerun]

EV + off road is a paradox! 3 Ton vehicle + 1 Ton Batteries ..in the outback praying to never ever encounter technical issues engineering talk sounds lovely but the real world is vey much different

[@L2SFBC]

Well, weight isn't as big a factor offroad as you may think.

[@inevahdie]

What % of world population goes off roading in the outback?

[@L2SFBC]

Probably 0.001%? Percentage of 4x4 owners who drive outback? 90% I guess. Could say what % of the population buys a Ferrari...yet Ferrari exists.

[@inevahdie]

@@L2SFBC my point exactly. Other than the Australians, Americans, and Africans, most of the world cannot get to outback so EV off roader makes sense for many. No car is for everyone, and just because EV offroader is not for the very select few in the doesn’t mean it’s not for all off road enthusiasts.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@jasonb4988]

Closed loop hybrid electric hydrogen PLEASE !

[@michaelsecomb4115]

Diesel-electric submarines seem to work okay. I can see people chucking a generator and several fuel containers in the back and recharging nightly to extend range for remote touring. How much would a couple of hours on a generator add to the range?

[@L2SFBC]

I would imagine the petrol engine could fully charge the battery maybe three times, so say 700km range plus? Don't think it'd be much of a problem.

[@operation4wheelz]

Spare under the bonnet?

[@L2SFBC]

Maybe yes!

[@ElderStatesman-pi3lc]

Oh my gosh - I think you’re right! That was really bothering me - it’s kind of the only place to put it

[@HardstylePete]

Shame it's independent suspension.

[@L2SFBC]

Why?

[@HardstylePete]

@@L2SFBC Inferior and every other EV is already independent suspension. The base Ineos is solid axles.

[@Lordoftheflatbush]

Looks like a very heavy SUV with limited payload and no towing capacity. What’s the use?

[@user-dv7nk7hy3f]

Toyota made a mathematical formula were the totality of an electric vehicle (manufacturing, mining etc) causes more harm to the environment than petrol vehicles.

[@oa1145]

Not even remotely true, breakeven is around 30K miles for evs. Toyota knows it customer base are too financially and mentally challenged to operate an electric vehicle.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Wait, what? You don’t go through any menus to turn on seat heating. You just press the switch/button. Done. Unless you own a dumb vehicle. And saying 2WD isn’t valid for off-roading. It’s amazing how much off-roading you can actually do in 2WD vehicles. You don’t HAVE to have 4WD it’s just superior. Even with front bias brakes on a hill - you can just press the brakes harder to brake more on the rear wheels - you don’t have to slide backwards. It’s only a bias, not no braking on the rear. Also - modern cars have ABS that’ll fix the front brakes from locking while providing rear braking at the same time. Also most vehicles have electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) which will sort out the issues mentioned. And many vehicles have gradient systems which know the angle of the vehicle and apply more force to the wheels that will benefit due to the angle being driven. Low range is pretty much obsolete with electric motors. That dual width back door setup is the worst ever. Have one door or two even sized ones and put the spare elsewhere. EVs can also be HFCEV (Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle) so fully electric powered and the electricity is generated by a hydrogen fuel cell (and some stored in a much smaller battery). Range Extender setup could also run the generator when you are parked to charge the battery. Doesn’t have to only run while driving. Kinda weird though as BEV has one range and rEX has less but can be extended to the same as the BEV. Seems pointless - why not have the range of the BEV and extend THAT rather than extend a smaller range? Is it about the quick refuelling and the keep going? As for the world going EV yeah it’s not. Only partly. 1 billion people don’t even HAVE electricity. The EV plan will level off and plateau at probably 30%-50% tops. There is no place ever for 100% EV or even close. It’s just not gonna happen. I love EVs but they don’t suit every situation. HFCEV make the most sense but they are slow off the mark. Many manufacturers are winding back their EV development too so there’s that.

[@L2SFBC]

1. many cars do have seat heating on touchscreens 2. the brake bias issue is a problem, even if you brake really hard. Try it. 3. EBD, ABS etc doesn't work at standstill or under 5km/h. 4. rEX will be longer range than BEV, and even if the same, can be refuelled quicker, yes.

[@michaelhermans4753]

Ineos can’t even look after its current buyers, there support is shocking, all their promises of support, parts etc does not apply to Australia. The lab rats are starting to whinge

[@drbrucejmacmurray1834]

EV waste of time and effort. The Petrol and Diesel is all you need. ( fit for purpose )

[@raywhitehead730]

Off road EV. Is Not a good idea.