Infinity N5 All Factions Tier List - Deranged, Two Days Since Release, Hot Take Edition

[@R0bertShepherd]

IT'S TIME. Today I'm joined by Jordan from Loss of Lieutenant as we go through every. single. N5. faction at length and rank them scientifically and without bias or malice aforethought. Ignore that the video title says these are deranged hot takes; our clear minds and astounding foresight will absolutely not be made a mockery of by time and experience. We've five dimensionally calculated the entire game in our heads and are here to deliver objective truths.

[@Zac-Hansen]

I expected nothing less. ;)

[@TomK_421]

Sir. The runtime.

[@R0bertShepherd]

My jaw hurts.

[@Zac-Hansen]

@@R0bertShepherd Thank you for your sacrifice.

[@kylecopley5320]

It's glorious

[@daethwing188]

Could have been longer...

[@cmdrm00s38]

I had successfully watched this without stop, twice, in a 12 hours drive. Thank you, dear sir for keeping me sane and delightful.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Safe travels, my friend.

[@originalusername4142]

Thank god, now that our lord Shepard has spoken, I know what to think about the viability of factions!

[@spenceriglinski4771]

I objectively need you to know that I will be watching all 5 hours of this. You did this.

[@avirgint8101]

Really quick off the cuff impression of vanilla Yu Jing: Completely new faction. Kuang Shi getting nerfed is a buff to Yu Jing, because it justified massive price drops across the board and allows us to take much more interesting, much more tactically flexible troops in slots that would've otherwise been bricks. Gudan Zappers are our Libertos; but we still have a Liberto for some reason. Long Ya are never bad -- but the new Thunderbolt TR bots are comparable in price and AVA2. So it's extremely easy for vYJ to form a defensive presence that is very easy to reconstitute, and also casually puts 8 camo tokens onto the midfield before we even start talking about skirmishers. We're packed with a bunch of useful utility HI for 20~30pts; the Haidao KHD's cheap and relevant, Zhencha are amazing, Dokkaebi got a BS buff, Hwarang absolutely deserve a second look. These are all troops that would be dropped in N4, either for want of slots or points, but the massive price drop means a midrange YJ build that brings multiple ~30pt HI seems totally viable. The great thing is that Kuang Shi are still around, so they're perfectly able to power a top-heavy YJ that's bringing Hac Tao and Su Jian or Hsien and Blue Wolf. I know it's still super early but I'm incredibly excited for this new direction for Yu Jing and can't wait to get more games in.

[@jotucker7258]

This is going to be listened to driving across Scotland and back. Thanks guys. The RUNTIME!!

[@scottycas7313]

I've been wanting to get back into tabletop gaming for awhile. I used to play Warmachine instead of warhammer because I liked the smaller format, can't wait to give this a try. Also, the models for this game look amazing.

[@erbent7594]

this is even more deranged than 8 shots from HRMC drummer and I'm here for it! looking forward to painting more pano listening to your hot takes

[@LARPBeard]

I can't believe I made it all the way through this!

[@Majkhelek]

You guys are literal GRANDMASTERS-OF-THE-UNIVERSE for pulling this recording through! Sweet dreams now xD

[@jaredmaggard4665]

RIP Varuna Immediate Reaction Division. Long live Varuna Colonial Force!

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

I think you mean the Colonial Force of Acontecimento

[@jaredmaggard4665]

@obyiscushobbyandgaming Immediate Colonial Reaction Force of Acontecimento?

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

​@@jaredmaggard4665I accept this compromise

[@llamaboss1434]

This is for the views, still utterly polluted by how individual units were buffed or nerfed since N4, and deeply rooted in vibes. And I am so here for it.

[@Nick2hill]

This is the sort of shit we come here for. Love it

[@OliverOusley]

They bloody well said team achillies would be in OCF. It makes sense thematically.

[@Kitzokami]

as a steel and onyx player, im glad they aren't in it. I'd be pissed if the onyx rework was just adding in steel characters. they deserve more than that.

[@kenwenlee6025]

Appropriately titled. I've been looking forward to it!

[@patrikmansuri]

I honestly dont think that the down bump from BS 18 to BS 16 in a core is THAT bad for Zhayedan and they should prove to be more consistent with that SD+1. Ramah seems like its going to be very fun in N5, I am excited to Bunny-hop Tarik and his friends 16 inches to stunt on the opponent.

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

@patrikmansuri the special die replaces a true die in the edition changes, though, so they're not becoming more reliable in the change. I agree 2-3BS isn't crippling, but your phrasing seemed to imply they were improved in some ways. The only case a special die is arguably stronger than a regular die is firing things with limited ammo. Tarik will be hilarious, and also great.

[@patrikmansuri]

@Isaac-hm6ih Yeah I know that it has changed from Burst 5 in active to B4 +1SD. I still think that swapping from +1B to +1SD is going to be more consistent

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

@@patrikmansuri How do you mean, more consistent? The only difference aside from expendable stuff is to remove the least effective die rolled.

[@bastionwargaming7965]

That 16ph dodge on O-yoroi got to be an army7 error. :)

[@R0bertShepherd]

We know the Gorgos dodging on 16s is intentional, so I think it may be legit :)

[@bastionwargaming7965]

@@R0bertShepherd i mean, as now, Oban player, I won't argue and want them to change it. It gets hilarious with tag raider. :) Not only I gets ph19, o-yoiroi still has stealth. xD

[@gizmomckopp1131]

@@R0bertShepherd That would be sick. I have been checking everyday if it's still the case xD

[@gizmomckopp1131]

It's been changed to a 13 now. Which is still pretty good for a TAG 😁

[@bastionwargaming7965]

@@gizmomckopp1131 Yeah! 13ph tag dodge is solid!

[@anthonyminerva1572]

I'm excited to watch this for the rest of my night.

[@joametz]

Love the content, as always. I also love the new Daofei specialist operative with AP Spitfire. It's something YuJing has lacked for a while: a unit that can fight, is closer to objectives, is not immediately hacked for trying to walk and can press a button. Plus, it has beautiful models. Oh, and if you are taking a Pheasant to forward deploy something (like Susie), taking the Lt. option sounds totally viable.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Once you (ok, once I) get past the "must get duo +1D value" phase, the Pheasant does just a weird amount of work unlocking different options.

[@matthewillies7065]

There are few things i enjoy then rob's voice telling my how awesome my pano is going to be now

[@taylordurost246]

As a morat player im so excited about beserk changes as dataruzi were already my all stars

[@R0bertShepherd]

They're *so* good

[@tanhy7334]

Shikami seems pretty crazy now, 8" super jump, climbing plus, eclipse grenade, specialist, mimetism -6, good melee and decent shooting really good

[@brandonkennedy8225]

Between your N4 video and your thoughts here, while it may be a little insane, you seriously have me considering not just starting Infinity, but playing as Tohaa if I do. They might not be great for beginners, but I love the lore and look of the army, and Eclipse and Pheroware seem really cool.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I honestly have no idea how they'd be for beginners. You wouldn't have to unlearn anything but, on the other hand... "do not, my friend, become addicted to eclipse. It will take hold of you, and you will resent its absence."

[@brandonkennedy8225]

​@@R0bertShepherdThanks for the advice.

[@corver2597]

IA got such a buff so far, I think they’re upper B lower A now. The lists that are getting built in the community are nuts with the pt drops and other adjustments.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Got one you can share?

[@TomK_421]

Oops, Army update while recording, better restart to talk about any changes :p

[@RattlerNxt]

Torchlight: Jamie got a Parachutist with Turret! That allows you to cone in out of Loaf and drop the turret at a corner over watching some chumps then go the other way and B3 Plasma something

[@elijahlevi6201]

I wasn't an Anathematic+Overdron believer before, but I think I am now. They seem to be a really great one-two punch of killing MSV AROs and then doing Anathematic things in later turns. The Vector also might be a stealthily really nice backup gunfighter, not expensive and benefits from the Super Jump buffs.

[@ItsRinaldo]

I've been waiting for this video to drop.

[@bostria]

Sir, the Shindenbutai logo is upside down. Unforgivable. I think you should make the whole video again.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Sir you cannot fool me it is taken directly from Army :P

[@zoeyuwu5531]

Thank you for this. I'm not watching it but I am glad you made it.

[@MaydayMiniatures]

Thoughts on Corregidor haris for 2 gecko and wildcat with a lobos and diablos core? Amazing video, I like the longer format, it's perfect for a long painting session and really helps to situate myself in the general layout of factions for N5, really helpful!!!

[@R0bertShepherd]

I'm not sure. Geckos are on my "want to love" list - this *might* be the edition for them.

[@adityam7866]

Time to put this on for me cooking dinner and continue listening to it as i fall asleep

[@HeyitsMartyn]

Pretty much sums up the consensus for nomads. Tunguska feels too restrictive, I'm also very sad perseus and Raoul still have no immunity to shock. And the cheerkillers received no love.

[@DonEstebanXXL]

The most important thing in the sheskiin vs Achilles discussion imho is that sheskiin is not hackable which seems to be a huge thing in N5 for the moment. Also Sheskiin probably deletes almost every other non high-end cc specialist with protheion makes her so extremely tanky.

[@cybernijntje7837]

I've been waiting for this xD

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

PanO got some ridiculous stuff in Joan with linked helots, and a duo of squalos.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Hilariously, Joan doesn't uniquely add to linked helots that much since Patsy can also make them regular.

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

​@R0bertShepherd yes, but mobility Joan is just incredibly good in general now so seems like the better choice. Patsy doesn't bring an aggressive gun. Making the warcor and bounty-biker regular is still good too, and CoC command access is slightly better than before with access to Magistrates.

[@M3RUL3Z]

Bro blew in from yapistan with this run time

[@Wyrmnax]

I get the feeling that they had 3 different passes on the army list to start N5. 1 for nerfing what was a bit out of hand. 1 for changing stuff to what they wanted to see more of in N5, and 1 for what they want to sell more of. And that was made by 3 different people, AND THEY DIDNT TALK TO EACH OTHER! So you have things like CA, where what was being problematic got reined in a bit and.... the N5 changes just pushed something else to the top. *way* to the top. Or Kosmoflop, that got its problematic units reined in, then they got nerfed from N5, then they got nerfed again from another change on N5, and then they dont benefit from anything that N5 is pushing, and they dont have anything that is being pushed for sales.... Or ALEPH, that got 3 different people nerfing different parts of how the army is supposed to work, and all of those came together to make a faction that is Marut and friends only.

[@OmegaZyklon]

I'm excited for this. Here's my "pre-watching-your-video" Tier List. Utterly Busted Tier - Vanilla Combined Army Somewhere in the middle Tier - Everything else Deleted Entirely From The Game - Vanilla Aleph. Possibly OSS and Steel as well??

[@R0bertShepherd]

Close on some things, off on others. But very close on some things...

[@OmegaZyklon]

@R0bertShepherd Haha Thanks for the video. I really enjoy these. I was right about vCA/vAleph/Morats. And quite wrong about Steel, OSS, and Nomads. I'm not qualified to rank most of the factions, so there's very little I disagree with. I am surprised White Banner ranked so high, but that was my main N4 army, so happy about that. Also surprised that vPanO is so high. Never saw that coming lol. I'm not an Aleph player at all, but I think gutting them completely is shameful. Highly disappointed in CB about that.

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

I'm a bit suprised that you didnt mention the Daofei glowup. The Spitfire gainong AP and Special Operative seems like a very solid profile now. Being able to effectively gunfight and press buttons seems fun

[@R0bertShepherd]

I didn't mention it because I didn't even look at the sod. Quite the glow-up, but still eye-wateringly expensive compared to the competition. May be worth it though.

[@bjornsoderstrom378]

Finally. Accept no substitute. The release is complete.

[@garrettlittle4830]

This is the exact video I wanted.

[@lim4091]

Ajax got a multi rifle and smoke grenades. Pretty spicy!

[@alexweber675]

Tried a version of your WB list against Bakunin in Supplies. Jing Quo is good, she did lots of work. But the WB list lacked defense and was light on camo for WB. The Shaolin duos are a good idea.

[@R0bertShepherd]

That's useful to hear, thanks :)

[@tknw]

As for the Bear +4 BS - it feels like an accidental synergy with smoke and hammer, but the rule checks out. If you look at the thrown weapon rules it states that despite using PH, you can add any BS bonuses you have. If you didn't, throwing hammers would bypass Mimetism, BS -X or cover ;)

[@PsychoticStorm]

I expected that with anticipation.

[@MrPinkpanzer]

Relatively new player. Was saddened by the SP changes, but kestrel, vPano, and yu jing(vanilla, wb, and IA) seem more appealing now. I'm currently stuck on how to make a good kestrel or vPano lists, but I've found making YJ/wb/IA lists really easy. I can kind of do the 'thing' I want to try and still have all the veggies I need to make a functional list. I'm wondering if I'm just not expirenced enough to really know what I'm doing, or that the YJ stuff really is that easy to play around with. Anyway thanks for the content, Rob. Good stuff.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@MrPinkpanzer at least for Kestrel, I think you get directed toward a pretty good list just from Sandtrap and Beyond Sandtrap. It's definitely a process of finding your specialists though - since the gunfighters are just so good.

[@MrPinkpanzer]

@R0bertShepherd I wanted to build a list that made good use of a blink hrl and a Tik, and I just wasn't happy with anything I made. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually. Until then, I can try running the yu jing stuff and enjoy building and painting the Kestrel.

[@madend]

Vostok FTO lost its repeater (and also the +1 damage) sadly. Might just be a better solo piece for those benefits rather than going in a Harris? Undecided. Enjoying the listen so far!

[@RattlerNxt]

Winterfor- Boyg had ECM-3. They lost Max. Vitro ferrous taps at arm 12. Beasthunter has been my camo attack piece last edition. Karhu need two fusiliers to generally do what they did before. You could put a KoJ ML in with a core of Fusilers for the BS15

[@R0bertShepherd]

Ah I did need to remember that Vitro tops out at ARM12. I read that, I know it, and yet my brains till occasionally decides no it MUST combo with some bullshit. But an AP shot into a Jotum behind vitro is still really going to struggle to dent it.

[@RattlerNxt]

@@R0bertShepherd Even with AP the Jotum goes from 12 to Arm 11 behind that cover doesnt it? 10/2+6

[@MrLordlyCalibur]

Hawkwood and ONE fusilier! Also, the sniper profiles are very spicy but the chain of command combi rifle is b6 ignore 2 in a duo with any brave fusilier? He seems genuinely dope now, having not actually played with it yet😅

[@R0bertShepherd]

You can't duo fusiliers. So you will usually need the two - but you could add something else in as a wildcard.

[@Isaac-hm6ih]

@@R0bertShepherd Yes, having to create haris and core teams with at least three is a meaningful restriction.

[@shobooknight]

This will be a nice yard stick to look back upon in a year or two and see what was accurate. On another note: do you have any opinion on the new speedball mechanic?

[@R0bertShepherd]

I hate it! But I'm prepared to accept that I may hate it less as time passes.

[@soapy5365]

It's a rough time to be an ariadna player... the thing I'm most annoyed at is how we have so much heavy infantry that really just feels like medium infantry that's zappable with E/M :C Super interesting video to listen to though!

[@Nos2113]

Will this explains why I've been so frustrated all day trying to put together a Vanilla Aleph list. OSS it is...

[@chrishoj5277]

As a pan-o player, I welcome our new sand-o overlords. Please mark the date and time of this comment in the event sand-o sticks.

[@Ravanstrike2009]

HELL YEAH! DERANGED SHIT GIMME!!!

[@spartacusjsmith]

Can I get a quick explainer about why white noise is better? Is that just because it blocks LoF to Marksmanship now? 4:38:18

[@R0bertShepherd]

Works on marksmanship, and 6th sense is way rarer.

[@spartacusjsmith]

@ actually does it though? Reading the rules it only says it blocks MSV

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@spartacusjsmith Good question. Even just sixth sense being rarer makes it way better though. Actually putting down Black AIRs with white noise shooting is a huge deal.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@spartacusjsmith just checked - reflective applies to marksmanship.

[@spartacusjsmith]

@@R0bertShepherd yeah but under white noise it sounds not stipulates that it blocks LoF to msv

[@uanchovy9480]

...oh no. What have you done Rob. What. Have. You. Done.

[@paz1869]

im surprised you guys skimmed over the Gwailos, being a albedo -6 plus it gets the new e/m carbine +1 burst and can link with jayth now

[@R0bertShepherd]

I saw it but we were a bit too cooked to really cover it by that late in the piece, and I don't think it salvages SEF. But we can live in hope.

[@paz1869]

@@R0bertShepherd Oh totally, you guys are warhorses for even attempting a total faction overview, madlads. Im gonna run Shasvastii at the first Canadian Satellite of 2025 (colder than carbonite) so we'll see how cooked they end up being!

[@andreasjohansson9798]

The chimera was so heavily nerfed. It lost MA, eclipse doesn’t get +3 up to 8”, they can now be glued since immunity total is gone and they do half damage vs structure due to changes to viral. And on top of this, the changes to climb and C+ means they can’t start on a wall and end up performing a cc attack within the same activation. Which is a huge negative change. Also, the loss of templates from shotguns make puppet masters way less threatening. 1 or 2 b3 boarding shotgun bots is something entirely different and less dangerous now without the templates.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I agree, but there's a huge difference between 'heavily nerfed' and 'non-viable'. The core of the chimera is intact because it's how peripherals and CC interacts and that hasn't changed.

[@eyaldiskin3665]

Immunity(total) is still there, its called immunity (enhanced) now

[@andreasjohansson9798]

@@eyaldiskin3665no, it doesn’t cover states like being glued, any longer.

[@andreasjohansson9798]

⁠​⁠@@R0bertShepherdas long as they don’t change the new rules for climbing and C+, which are appalling poor both from a game play perspective and cinematic cool perspective, I view the chimera as almost non-viable. Not being able to utilise c+ and attacking someone on a rooftop/on the ground in the same activation is enormous, and on top of all the other nerfs to her, it tips the balance, because that has been a core function for her in many of my games. At least for me. And now there will be TR deployable turrets everywhere. Getting the UFK into cc will be incredibly difficult. I can fully agree to disagree😅

[@RattlerNxt]

Tao Wu is 18 points for CI and he is a B3 Contender which is T2 on a BS12 with surprise shot. I like him in Ikari. Can’t speak to Yu Jing

[@gregoryisom7741]

hurray!

[@pqfire0950]

So im brand new and decided to go into military orders cause i love the tech knights theme and im a warhammer guy so it just translates for me lol. Is the tikbaalang still considered good after the change and what are your thoughts on the knight of the holy selpulchre? Hopefully the faction is fun at least lol, I'm painting them all up rn😂.

[@R0bertShepherd]

The Tikbalang is absolutely still good, yes. It's just now competed with by the Seraph, depending on what you want from the list (the Seraph is extremely cool once you can handle its speed). The Sepulchre Knight is a very dangerous APHMG, but also somewhat expensive for a two-wound knight. But I think it has definite legs as a fire support piece. It's probably a bit too pricey to afford alongside a TAG, but is a cheap alternative to one if you need.

[@pqfire0950]

Awesome thanks! Yeah i was thinking that'd id bring the HS knight as basically a mini tag so i can throw more high armor knights into the list.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@pqfire0950 It's a mini-TAG in terms of damage output, not so much durability - but you can always doctor it back, and at the price point that's still quite a solid buy.

[@pqfire0950]

@@R0bertShepherd Yeah thats why I'm thinking about bringing either a hospitaller doctor or an infirmerer of saint lazarus with a palbot. Btw, yall said in the video that tuton knights can no longer be your main gunners, whys that?

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@pqfire0950 with limited cover baked in they're not great at winning F2F rolls - the spitfire can do work in a pinch but I'd avoid it at list construction and reach for other weapons instead. Use Teutons for close assault.

[@petergallai469]

Just tuning in but oh boy it will take days for me to get through this video :D Thanks for the content! By the way, what do you think of Armed Turrets? I got so excited about them that my first N5 meme list will be a Steel Phalanx Turret Heaven / Haven 😅 Two Dactyls grouped with two Hoplite Engineers and a Probot can set up 8 Turrets with 6 orders, two of them being coordinated and the rest are just reload :'D

[@R0bertShepherd]

I'm actually veeeeery slightly concerned about them from a balance perspective when they're massed like that. No individual turret is bad, they're super neat, but I think you might be able to get to game states where someone is staring down eight of them and you can't clear that any more. But they're *super* neat.

[@petergallai469]

@R0bertShepherd I was thinking about Smoke + MSV combo, I think that would do the trick. However it is still pretty order intensive and not every list can do it easily. Time will tell.

[@corbeaubm]

Regarding Tunguska, I'm a fan of both Grenzer and Cheerkiller duos. Yeah, sure, I'd rather have the cheaper Bolts over the Grenzers' bells and whistles, but the Grenzers work and Nomads don't get Bolts. Then Cheerkillers are an exceptionally cheap and mobile gun+specialist duo that can take advantage of smoke-shooting; less resilient than Hollow Men, but very affordable.

[@thevanguardking3477]

If Armor/BTS + Disposable cover is greater than 12, then it is just 12.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Yup, so it has certain interactions with superheavy stuff vs AP rounds, but otherwise cannot crank the jotum's hog that much.

[@krobiekong4326]

Wait, I am surprised you still rate Mutts still so high. Jammers now need the opponent to fail their saving rolls to be isolated. I am having a hard time making VHaqqislam lists, but it will probably come with playtesting. Thank you for letting us hear your thoughts for 5 hours.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Jammers always inflicted damage. They haven't changed at all except they reload for free and are cheaper.

[@RattlerNxt]

Losing the Grunt Infiltrator is garbage. And the FD+8 one went up one point! USA is just in a rough place.

[@zephyrrrr4813]

RARRRRR NEW ROB CONTENT

[@neocalder1228]

You think we could get the template taighas back for shas?

[@R0bertShepherd]

I wouldn't expect it, although I do think they got slightly overnerfed and might get a small correction back upward at some point.

[@blupbp]

The Haetae is still BS 20 guided? Didnt they removed the +6 for guided, so only the +3 Spotlight applies?

[@R0bertShepherd]

Guided gets range modifiers.

[@ryandugan9176]

This is a dumb idea for iss, but it actually looks kind of interesting to play. Also with the new deployable cover you can make sun tze armor 10 which is fun and weird, and with the pheasant finally feeling interesting I’m keen to make him work somehow. Anyways;

[@ryandugan9176]

Because who needs a deployment zone anyways.

[@apeofjustice7109]

Finally! I can formulate an opinion by just parroting what Rob says

[@otherdave2]

Wait, this says it's 5 1/2 hours long. That can't be right

[@Griffolion0]

You absolute, unmitigated madman.

[@Mcgreag]

Can't duo Wu Ming in Ikari sadly. You can bring a specialist in a Wu Ming or Tanko fireteam in the form of a Brawler Hacker/Doctor/Engineer as they are Wildcards but it's not a very interesting profile and it becomes hard to get the fireteam bonuses you want. You did miss the auto include specialist, the Ninja. But even with that specialists are really a weak point for Ikari.

[@Hey107]

As someone who played 5 of the cut armies (mainly Caledonia), I'm in shambles. At least my Monkies are looking pretty.

[@Hey107]

Also, as far as the Taryot goes, it went from 4-4 to 6-2, gained dogged, arguably better weapon loadouts, and a sizeable point drop. So I'd call that a glow up.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I would swear on a stack of bibles that when I looked at it it didn't have dogged. But memory is a tricky thing.

[@kegofort]

No mention of rodoks? Are they fixed now?

[@R0bertShepherd]

They're... better. I'm not sure I'd take them still, they're very expensive, but they could be worth a look.

[@timc.2990]

What are your thoughts about cutter and helots nerfs? Also shindenbutai have disco baller on tanuki hacker, and it can get in a haris with rui shi and yuriko for that sweet single-order move rui shi + hack.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I don't think either the cutter or helots have been meaningfully nerfed. Helots have had their role expanded with the Fireteam and Patsy changes, so it's just a points change from 9/0.5 to 12 on a single profile that could be considered a nerf. And the cutter is still an apex predator in an edition with less immunity to surprise.

[@robertmaples1550]

What did Ariadna do to CB? My USARF cowboys not getting any love hurts

[@Imrixan]

Absolutely WEEPING in Vanilla ALEPH...

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

The impossible Jotum thing doesn't work right? The deployable cover caps your arm at 12, so worse than a Jotum in normal cover

[@R0bertShepherd]

No, it doesn't. Against AP you're still insanely hard to kill but it may not be worth the investment.

[@Space_Ranger]

I'm disappointed in duos in vYJ for shooting. However, they are one of the few that can attach hackers to tinbots. -6 tinbots. Zuyong, Shang ji tinbots with zhanying, Dokkaebi, Haido hackers is big.

[@Ravanstrike2009]

Waiting for some legend to put in timestamps

[@thesophist4914]

Medium infantry got points cuts and profile overhauls across the board! They are unfortunately probably still bad.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Almost universally, yeah. There are a few standouts though.

[@Krashwire]

Really bummed about Onyx

[@YetMoreCupsOfTea]

Wooooo. KZbin engagement!

[@alphadeltaroflcopter]

This couldnt be consolidated down to less then 5 hours?! Jesus. Christ.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I honestly thought it was going to be about 3hrs. And then it, uh, wasn't.

[@alphadeltaroflcopter]

@R0bertShepherd I have something to listen to for the coming days I guess 🤣

[@spartacusjsmith]

I disagree with needing to marksmanship a TR bot. It is hardly ever needed in my n4 experience and outside of baggage, I won’t be including an evo

[@Donnergraf]

Looks at the runtime: da fuq happened here?

[@GRB00100]

I wonder how this will age ?

[@R0bertShepherd]

Poorly!

[@math3210]

But what about the Ayyar?

[@R0bertShepherd]

It's in hidden deployment.

[@spartacusjsmith]

Not feeling the turret meta I think people are overestimating the availability and simplicity of placing multiple turrets in good spots Every dude with a turret you place in your list is one fewer gunfighter,specialist,hacker It’ll pass once people realise that it’s not a good tactic Maybe I’m stuck looking at my home faction which is Haqq, but I don’t see me taking more than a single turret and it still takes at least two orders to place it in a decent spot and then move the model away from the blast focus

[@R0bertShepherd]

I ran a game this evening with double monstruckers. Wild MVPs relative to the investment.

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

But so many turret players are also specialists or even gunfighters (or both on the case of the Psi Cop)

[@spartacusjsmith]

@ Monstruckers look great but being irregular will always limit their inclusion

[@spartacusjsmith]

@ the Psi Cops is pretty cool tbh But it is still a narrowing of your vision which affects decision making. It’s interesting times for sure, keen to see how the game develops over time

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

​@@spartacusjsmithit only narrows your vision if you let it. Having the ability to drop a bunch of turrets doesn't mean you have to. But odds are that when moving you have a short skill that's essentially not needed which can place a turret which yout opponent needs to deal with

[@EAfirstlast]

I remain mad that achilles went combined and robbed my favorite faction its face with nothing given in return

[@Kingsandbox87]

Nothing has been given in return yet! I'm in the same boat, though. Aleph and Haqqislam are the factions I jam and both are definitely feeling the changes of N5.

[@OliverOusley]

Let's gooooo

[@gophermanX]

I think you're overrating OSS by 5 or so places. They haven't changed that much in the new edition, which means that while they did get a bit better in a few places they still have a VERY large weakness to close range fast alpha strikes which are better than ever. Also super-jump (8") goes only 14" on a jump-jump!

[@R0bertShepherd]

Consensus I've heard from people whose opinions on rules I trust have said that a super jump 8" model can move 16" in an order with two jumps.

[@ryandugan9176]

So I think this was the iss rework. Celestial guard got light riotstoppers, Tze got decoy, both wu ming and cranes got ap added to their weapons which is probably the biggest change, bao got albedo, and the number of wildcards and full bonus fireteams was massively cut down. Their linkable remotes make wu ming worse, as does the loss of all specialist access from the wu ming, but zhanying got nerfed even harder, so they are now obligatory specialists for the wu ming fireteam. The remote getting +1 burst missile launcher makes it better than the wu ming hrl generally, Xi zhuang did get a new full bonus link with csu, and Adil lost access to his light infantry profile but now can get full bonuses with a bounty hunter link. Really it comes down to both the crane and the wu ming getting a glow up, and the pheasant now allowing for some forward deployment shenanigans. Oh and the kanren lost their deployable marker state and got mim-6. It’s a weird mixed bag rework that seems to hearken back to popular iss lists in n3, while gutting the n4 list style. Sophotech is neat, and a better value proposition, but still the only doctor.

[@ryandugan9176]

Overall I imagine they probably deserve a b rank. Their major issue in n4 was the complete absence of access to deacent burst ap weapons , and that change at least shifts them to a pretty deacent place. Bao getting albedo also makes them pretty good counter snipers, so maybe they’ll see the table this edition.

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

this wasn't even their real rework. They are scheduled to have a proper reweork/release next year

[@ryandugan9176]

We’LL see. Cb hasn’t been great with their communication recently. Until then I’ve found some fun list ideas.

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

​@@ryandugan9176that's fair, but it qas heavily implied that thet are either the adeptiicon or gencon release

[@alexweber675]

They just teased an "ISS: Spring" announcement

[@NobleWizard]

I'm just disappointed that the two factions I picked are not playable. Picked aleph first for the greek mythology and then tohaa because they worked differently to the rest of the armies. Not sure I want to pick up another faction now having got my fingers burned twice now.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Aleph right now on release really means being a Phalanx and an OSS player, because both of those are very playable. Frankly even Aleph is playable, but really only with a Marut unless you suck it up and shell 20pts for the Deva.

[@RattlerNxt]

Vanilla Aleph should be at the bottom. You spoke as poorly about them as USA and Shas.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Vanilla aleph still has some fairly notable spikes of strength. The challenge with them is finding a second list after Marut And Friends - but they don't lack individual elements with mechanical power.

[@nemo-no-name]

Good riddance to mercs and heroes removed from Aleph. I'm just sorry they didnt purge Parvati and other characters from OSS. It should've been a hero-less sectorial. :(

[@gophermanX]

You can pry Parvati from my cold dead hands