Insane Scoring Potential! (Vanguard Spearhead Detachment)

[@d.t.m8393]

1:10 Real quick thing, but I think you might be getting a little mixed up on the mathematical outcomes of -1 To Hit and +1 To your save(via Cover) on a d6 roll. I know it's intuitive to think that because the d6 only has 6 pips that every + or - will result in a 16.66% shift, but that's not actually going to be the case. Take for example being shot by an Ork for instance. If an Ork shoots at you and needs a 5+ to hit then he hits you 2/6 times. If you give that Ork a -1 penalty, then now he only hits you 1/6 times. That's not a 16.66% change to his output that's a straight up 50% change, which means you'll end up taking 50% less damage overall. The numbers look like: BS 5+ with -1: -50% damage received. BS 4+ with -1: -33.33% damage received. BS 3+ with -1: -25% damage received. BS 2+ with -1: -20% damage received. Likewise, being in Cover doesn't always increase your durability by a flat 16% for the same reason. Imagine you have some Centurions being hit by AP-1 attacks. Without Cover, they take 1/3 wounds per save(and it takes on average 12 wounds to kill one Centurion -> 12/3 = 4). With Cover, they only take 1/6 wounds per save and now it takes on average 24 wounds to kill one Centurion -> 24/6 = 4). In this example they actually double their survivability. Much better than a 16.66% increase! Anyway, the tldr is that Shadow Masters is actually a bit stronger that you probably thought it was in this video. I quite like the detachment overall tbh. Nice anti-shooting detachment rule, with a very powerful anti-melee stratagem(the reactive d6"/6" move). Add in a great ranged infantry boosting strat, sticky objectives with free MWs on top, and 10th eds version of Guerilla Tactics and I think this detachment has serious play potential. 👍

[@ba_commander]

You've told me this before!!! Argh... my old man brain not remembering!

[@jtmoney466]

The best part of Friday new BAC video

[@ba_commander]

Best part of Friday, you guys awesome comments ;)

[@sean2549]

Ghost weave is good for a smash captain with jump pack. Gives you a pretty fast and solid fighting lone op.

[@pardieux4266]

This detachment loves inceptors. Use a strat to pick them up to go into reserve then deep strike outside of 3, if you like (even dumping them into your opponents deployment zone turn 1 if you’re trixy). Or, drop them in 12+ inches away for +1 BS and +1 AP.

[@JuanThunder79]

Inceptors are boss!! How many do you take? do you you run 6's or 3's? Plasma or bolter??

[@pardieux4266]

@@JuanThunder79 two units of six bolter and one unit of three plasma.

[@leeroy8528]

Looking at this detachment for my next game. Like the idea of a jump captain (blade driven)+10 jump ints+jump sang p. Deploy on objective and deadly prize then Turn 1 charge w/surgical strike for free from cap. Sounds fun.

[@HighlandPhoenix]

Great list James Fisher, and really informative discussion with John on it... Going to help my own list building around the Vanguard detachment!

[@ba_commander]

Glad it was helpful!

[@fishe183]

Great time chatting as always john!

[@JuanThunder79]

Good video John, i enjoyed the interview with James. Ive run Vanguard quite a few times now and my lists are not a million miles from the one you review here. Combi Leuitenants, scouts, eliminators amd inceptors are all excellent. You will however find that the lack of doctrines and the reliance of killing power from data cards alone makes it a struggle not to be effectively tabled in turn 3. Yes you can score fast but so will your opponent if you cant resist them in later turns.

[@joerudinsky1447]

Just to point out, the Shadow Masters rule stacks with Stealth which is pretty good against armies that really rely on +1 to hit. Looking at you Tau and Votann. EDIT: Ghostweave Cloak on a redeployable Gravis Captain or a Jump Captain to get DHT has been good so far.

[@paulmichelart1197]

Is the ghostweave stealth bonus stack with the detachment rule ? So....on a biologis + heavy intercessor you will have -2hit if youre shot over 12" ? Seems sick

[@joerudinsky1447]

@paulmichelart1197 it doesn't give it to the unit unfortunately but it does stack.

[@scleless1342]

Except the rules state that you can't modify hit by more than 1 in either direction right?

[@joerudinsky1447]

@@scleless1342 it negates a +1 to hit tho.

[@stephenwitham]

10 Assault Terminators with a chaplain infiltrating is chef's kiss. I love vanguard, it's great shenanigans with moderate, leverageable power.

[@ooinoxioo]

Really fun sounding list and ideas with this detachment. Imterestingly James mentions picling units up to strategic reserve not being able to then Deep Strike, but the rules commentary does say that a unit in Strat reserve with Deep Strike can enter using either ability when arriving

[@prudentparatrooper385]

BT player here. I've looked hard at this as an alternative to Righteous Crusaders. A full 20 man Primarius Crusader Squad being able to infiltrate is scary good. As for Ghostweave Cloak, the best use is putting it on an Ancient, making him your Warlord set him on an objective in the back so the enemy can't really use him for whatever they might.

[@mattcharles3514]

Also the calculated feint strat can be used to make an opponent have an auto fail charge by making the charge impossible but technically within 12", on mounted, monsters and vehicles and it can't be rerolled, you can also make the opponent multi charge and then move the phobos and leave the heavy hitter uncharged

[@chrisbailey832]

Really liked this video. I hope to craft some lists with this in mind. Your guest was great, to hear his thoughts on the list was enlightening.

[@ba_commander]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@HighlandPhoenix]

Okay, you raising that Dev Cents in combat aren't terrible is a great point I had not appreciated! But do I want to invest in Cents when they are Firstborn...?! Damn GW!

[@JuanThunder79]

I feel you pain here! Cents are top of my wish list and bottom of my wish list at the same time! Only GW could make a product everyone wants but no one should buy 😅😅

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@JuanThunder79 🤣😢😣

[@paulewen7601]

90 points for the Chaplain in Terminator plus the cloak or 90 Points for a Calidus Assassin. Both seem to be pretty similar in their abilities if your going for the "unable to be shot" stance but with the Calidus you get to pick them up and again redeploy them again each turn! Even more Shenanigans! i'm looking forward to running Vanguard detachment. 10 x DC with a Chaplain infiltrating, Infiltrators infiltrating, 6 x Eliminators in an Impulsor infiltrating, Calidus Infiltrating. A Lib Dread being able to redeploy infantry too means for 1 CP i can re-deploy 2 x Phobos, my assassin and whoever my Lib decides.

[@JuanThunder79]

Callidus is a sick!!

[@fishe183]

Yeah, I just value the 2+ save and 2 additional wounds.

[@DrEggChan]

I've been a big fan of the Combi Lieutenant, and the Shadow War enhancement makes him even better.

[@JuanThunder79]

Yes, this is awesome. Take a callidus too for double vect. Tasty!

[@Myuthepaintingcat]

I have had issue where I have not been able to use it. Out of 10 games I have used it 2 times. And those strats were really not used. My last tournament I didn’t use it once. There was pretty much nothing to vect. I end up most of the time doing a command re roll but maybe two times.

[@rexvictorhardrada]

Using a sanguinary priest with the infiltrate enhancement paired with gabriel seth, and assault intercessors is absolutely hilarious to jam up the deployment zone and keep the enemy presence in the middle of the board minimal for the first few turns. Saving my cp for precision and grenades on tough armor allowed me to beat a black templars anvil build.

[@DMHightower]

John, I think you might have missed a trick wth A Deadly Prize. The mortal wounds trigger EVERY TIME an enemy ends a move in range of the nominated objective AS LONG AS YOU STILL CONTROL IT. It could possibly trigger with same same unit multiple times in a game turn, and kerps triggeringcas long as your keep it in your control. It's not really a game changer, but especially in the late game, those 2 mortal wounds might become more significant.

[@ba_commander]

Do you think there’s more guaranteed ways to do more wounds for less CP?

[@ianmontague8542]

Two units that I love about the BA specific Vanguard detachment are the Sanguinor and Libby Dread. Sanguinor is useful to punish the enemy charging your BDD unit. (judiciar for fights first is a great addition too) The Librarian Dread I think has so much synergy with the infantry based teleport shenanigans as well. I have just build a Vanguard list with both and I hope to play it this weekend!

[@paulmichelart1197]

Nice list. I'm playing a very similar list but I'm using a lieutenant in my bladeguards to have lethal hit + shoot/charge after disengagement.

[@ba_commander]

Good tip!

[@rikhansen4574]

I have been trying to make a viable list for Vanguard for two weeks, if it didnt have so many Phobos restrictions it could be really really good.

[@HighlandPhoenix]

Same...

[@ba_commander]

You didn’t like James list?

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@ba_commander I really liked James' list! Your discussion has really helped my list plans!

[@rikhansen4574]

​​​@@ba_commanderI like parts of it. I dont know if two redemptors and a squad of DC is enough assault element to punch into armies. The two squads of inceptors helps, but they dont punch up very well. I think his list is very thought out.

[@StefanTexen]

Those death company in the intro are the most sublime conversions I've ever seen! I don't think I've ever seen them on your channel before. Do you know the source of the picture?😍

[@ba_commander]

Google image search, I was trying to find something for Blood Angels that looked Vanguardy!

[@mattcharles3514]

A deadly prize can do up to 4d3 mortals a turn as it's start and end, so a unit starts a move on the objective, ends a move on the objective, starts a charge and ends the charge it's 4d3

[@ba_commander]

Seems VERY situational!

[@starlord157]

That thumbnail… 🔥🔥

[@WarpstormChronicles]

I'm thinking Ghost Weave clock on a cheap Ancient unit to give it Lone Operative and a 4+ Feel No Pain as it sits on the center objective to cleanse or deploy homer. Thoughts?

[@HighlandPhoenix]

Not watched yet, but I was going to highlight infiltrating a large unit of Heavy Intercessors as a first drop right into the face of the opponent to disrupt their deployment and then have a Rogue Trader Entourage to redeploy the Heavy Intercessors when required before the battle starts... I am toying with it in the Vanguard list builds... 😅

[@JuanThunder79]

The heavies just don't have enough killing power, seems a bit of a waste for one of the premier tactical moves in the detachment. From my experience, whatever you infiltrate has to have a very strong datacard. Terminators, Death Company, Aggressors, Eradicators could all be a fine play. You'd at least need a Biologus and or a Grav Captain in the unit to give it enough punch.

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@JuanThunder79 Appreciate the hitting power, and the Biologis and Capt (w/ Heavy bolt rifle) would be included... All about the tricks and tool box approach however, massive distraction carnifex as well. The rest of the army would make up the killing power and other tricks as James' list is highlighting...

[@Johnnymarzo]

Ghost weave cloak on the talon master from dark angels is crazy powerful

[@ba_commander]

Good point , thanks for sharing!

[@johncallihan2334]

Great video! Even 6 months later!

[@harrisonsaynor8568]

So would guerilla tactics allow you to put terminators back into deep strike for instance

[@th3realxxheaderxx]

If only you could put the ghost weave cloak on a death company dreadnought. That could be insane

[@JuanThunder79]

or a libby dread for that matter!! would be awesome!

[@Myuthepaintingcat]

I will say this detachment needs a lot of Practice and experience. You need to really know how and where you need to move units. I have used calculated faint in scouts. That are in the middle field to draw melee units into a field of fire. So unit charge them and then they are i. The open. Trade a 55pt unit for 100+ units. Then keeping your ranged units outside of 12. You really need to be moving units off the table and bringing them back into good foreign positions. It really feels if they stay still they die. I have withdrew centurions or eradicators and bring them in on table edges. Since your not charging really with them you can get them outside of 12 and then unload show clear.

[@williambegley5209]

Just saying Death Guard don’t have to spend any cp to make a objective sticky, they just need to control it for a turn.

[@Grpace7]

I feel like the detachment rule is way too easy to counter. It should be have some rule that lets you ignore ignore cover so it’s always on

[@Pyriel2]

Have you seen my BA libby sculpt? I was thinking of donating it to this channel.

[@ba_commander]

I have not brother how did you make it?

[@Pyriel2]

Im very good with greenstuff. I have two models I planned on donating to two different channels but the BA model got fucked by the UK post office so its lost with all hands. Im still froth-raging! @@ba_commander

[@Pyriel2]

oops, forgot to link: drive.google.com/file/d/1txvV8SuIIi0oM_yP88RsAZQZGOS80Blj/view Link should work, if not send a request. @@ba_commander