Inside failed vintage components: 1 MHz quartz crystal and early CMOS IC

We ended up with quite a few dead components in last episode's repair-a-thon. Would a look inside reveal what they died from?
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[@squigglyline2813]

So what exactly does the quartz do? I missed the first video plus I don't know much about this stuff.

[@CuriousMarc]

The quartz is used to make a very precise frequency in an oscillator, in this case it was for a clock. This is the episode where that particular quartz fails, just about here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZa7io2BnJqdmtE . And here is the episode where I explain how quartz crystals oscillators work, also timed at about the right place: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5Wbkq2EpNumfJo

[@squigglyline2813]

@@CuriousMarc thanks!

[@QwazyWabbit]

The crystal was dropped or otherwise subjected to high g forces. Believe it or not, they can survive the initial hit but shatter on the impact after the rebound. The pin sheared first then the edge was chipped on impact with the casing. The best way to open them is to saw them just above the seam or weld line of the base, then the top lifts off cleanly and you don’t risk debris contamination. I liked the ballet anyway. MIL Spec crystals are tested on a drop jig in different orientations and bounced off a designated cushion or anvil and caught on the rebound. This imparts a predicable haversine acceleration for qualifying the device class. This is done by 100% sampling. Civilian crystals are prepared the same way but not necessarily tested 100%. Had the electrical connection survived the crystal would have worked but those chips would have impaired performance, shifted frequency, tendency for spurious response along the curve in your vector traces and different “activity”, the term for motional resistance.

[@bigbaddms]

Excellent! Musta taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque

[@typograf62]

I guess that maybe the entire board was dropped. As the quartz crystal is mounted on springs it might hit the casing, bounce back and hit another wall of the casing. So you may be able to deduce the approx. direction of the fall. Big shatter and impact markings might have hit first. Have a look at the pcb for strike marks. But I'm a programmer, not an engineer.

[@nejiniisan1265]

Thanks

[@Sylvan_dB]

Previous job we started having failures. Traced to crystal. SCEM examination revealed tin whiskers. The supplier had switched to RoHS compliant without changing the part number.

[@BigUpVideo]

Or made in China..

[@neilshep50]

Back in 1973, I spent 6 months on an industrial placement, developing an environmental radiation monitor to run off a battery and sit in various locations dotted around the CERN site. This used a number of 4000 series cmos chips for their low power needs. However, the circuitry required an op amp. We used a 4069 inverter as an amplifier with a feedback resistor from output to input so the output quiescent level was 0.5 x Vcc. So both transistors were on at the same time.

[@CuriousMarc]

You can see this method was also used for the quartz oscillator in our Russian clock.

[@adamrak7560]

Nice! I have only ever tried that trick in SPICE :)

[@DavidALovingMPF102]

Great video! Reminds me of when I used to teach digital techniques class when I was in the USAF at Keesler AFB. I would bring in some slides of chips I had opened and photographed through a microscope. It was one of the most fun classes I taught. USAF 77-83 ECM. After I got out of the USAF, intel hired me. Some litho corrections on giant Nikons were in microns. We also had to adjust laser interferometers, focus and alignment (overlay), One layer lines up on the layer below it. In the early days, operators would align the chip layers manually, looking through scopes. Later, computers would correct everything, (mag, overlay, run out, ) on the fly.. as the wafer stage moved and the reticle image was enlarged through a slit. (Perkin Elmers). Nikons used rotating x and y leadscrews were soon replaced by mag levs. Wafer stage positions were calculated by bouncing modulated laser beams off of long mirrors attached to each stage. One for X, One for Y. Some litho tools made exposures through a liquid, not air. (No bubbles allowed!) retired after 28.5 years. I still have nightmares!!

[@paradiselost1914]

I used to work at AMD in the early 1980's. I have many unmounted chips that I collected. I can't say what the chips we're used for or what their ID number is, but would you want them? I have no reason to keep them any longer. Some chips are uncut wafers and some are cut in their holding container. Let me know and I'll send them to you if wanted.

[@BlahBleeBlahBlah]

I’d love to see some of those wafers!

[@davidwillmore]

Send them to zeptobars!

[@CuriousMarc]

Please contact ne through the link in the video description (my channel about page). The persons in the team interested in such dies are Antoine and Ken.

[@BobWiersema]

No don't send them. Ken is just looking for raw material like that to build his robot army. Haven't we had enough problem in 2020 already?

[@BlahBleeBlahBlah]

@@BobWiersema 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@edgeeffect]

Takes me back to Geology at school... "Quartz instead of having neat cleavage planes like most other minerals, exhibits conchoidal fracture"... and you've got a perfect example on that thar failed crystal.

[@typograf62]

Very illustrative.

[@MrTechmoore]

Yes, as a flintknapper I saw that, too...

[@uniservo]

Motorola uses the 14xxx series for CMOS because they already had a 4xxx series for one of their old TTL lines (MTTLsomething). That old line fell to the standard 74xx series long ago, but two numbers survived for many years - MC4024 and MC4044.

[@leozendo3500]

His blog is insane. Casually reads silicon like a book and own the IR library

[@davidwillmore]

May I make a suggestion about decapping ceramic chips? Hold the chisel with the angled face down. When the chisel starts to move after the cap breaks free, it will rise up and avoid the chip and bond wires.

[@squirlmy]

why would anyone have this expertise? Everyone I know throws faulty ones away without a second thought, gets a new one. I'm not criticizing you at all, I'm genuinely curious.

[@nrdesign1991]

Mentioning the Dooblydoo, and setting classical music to milling action. You are a true AvE fan :)

[@hugovangalen]

I was looking for a comment like this. My thoughts too. :-D

[@1994delicaman]

SAME!!

[@BlahBleeBlahBlah]

I thought the same thing too haha

[@brocktechnology]

Dooblydoo is generally attributed to WheezyWaiter and popularized by the vlogbrothers and PBS idea channel. AvE is certainly not a follower though, he's brought lots of original flare to the english language. Also I don't think dooblydoo needs to be capitalized but now I'm just being pedantic.

[@edgeeffect]

Not just ANY Classical music but The Blue Danube Walz... a perennial AvE favourite.

[@EderNucci]

This was without a doubt the best opening demonstration of an IC I've seen so far. Thank you very much.

[@S0K0N0MI]

The CMOS IC microscope view is so cool! It turns what seemed like magic into something clearly visible.

[@busterhyman103]

*I had a communications shop long ago. With crystal controlled CB's and Marine Radios we would remove the little pink rock from its looped whisker-wire holder and burnish it with tooth paste on a flat surface thus moving working freqs in between channels. Most popular.*

[@TheAdwatson]

It really made me feel old to see the "vintage components" were a crystal and CMOS! I still have TTL and CMOS in my component collection, along with transistors, silicon and germanium diodes and a few valves (vacuum tubes). I worked in electronics during the 1970s and 1980s.

[@artysanmobile]

A failed crystal is a rarity, and about the last thing you expect. In 45 years of engineering, I’ve found 2 or 3, maybe.

[@CuriousMarc]

That was my first one! Clearly this one was dropped pretty hard.

[@kirknelson156]

I love this channel, I'm a retired navy electronic tech, I was very good at troubleshooting and repairing but I was always fascinated by the engineering aspect of electronics. I learn about so many things from watching your videos, keep it up :)

[@001vgupta]

Work with lot of planning and precision. Very good.

[@jeromeprater183]

The Hex Inverter.......a simple electronic method to counteract curses.

[@UnitSe7en]

The magical form of "I am rubber, you are glue."

[@beefchicken]

They’re from the machinists screaming “more RPM and why are you climb cutting?!!"

[@slidey1788]

@@beefchicken more speed yes but cut thick to thin for the win.

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

Ken's dry sense of humour gets me every time!

[@constantinosgerontis8884]

This is genuinely one of the most fascinating videos I've seen in a very long time. I studied computer engineering and I've seen explanations here and there of wafer level geometry, but it was never explained with the same amount of detail and context. Thank you

[@Pants4096]

The Blue Danube makes everything instantly ten times more elegant and relaxing! ◡̈

[@CuriousMarc]

It does!

[@Fake_Blood]

For a minute I thought I was watching an AvE video.

[@neilshep50]

I was thinking the PanAm spaceliner approaching the space station in 2001, A Space Odyssey

[@rubenproost2552]

@@neilshep50 Yup

[@aicisha]

It is my first time to see someone revers engineer a silicon chip and it was fascinating! Thank you for this video!

[@rpavlik1]

Amazing, that die reversing was simple enough I almost understood it completely!

[@tekvax01]

Marc is channelling AvE today! Nicely done... I use to repair broadcast FM Lav microphone transmitters, that were crystal-controlled PLL. The operators took great pride in somehow smashing the crystals in those transmitters, as we had to replace them constantly... and they aren't cheap, and take months of lead time to grow and manufacture! We use to have to order the crystals in bulk, because of the six-month manufacturing lead time...

[@compwiz101]

Oh boy, more adventures in electronic archeology!

[@stuckinpants]

I had a crystal fail in a radio IF filter where one of the leads was shorted to the case inside the can. I was actually able to de-lid it (soldered lid) and see the solder sitting on the feedthrough. Still works 5 years later!

[@joynthis]

When the end comes around and they ask "what did you do with your life," I'm gonna be in trouble.

[@AndyH2O]

Excellent! No paperclips were harmed in the making of this video.

[@balazskoti2603]

Ha, some 8bit guy reference? That was so cringing to watch!

[@flebnard]

Nonononono don't do iiit aaaaand spack

[@philmayf]

Man, Ken is extremely skilled at reversing ICs

[@izools]

I can hear AvE crying tears of joy at your precise, delicate milling, and your choice of music. It seems Chickadee isn't his only protégé 🙂🙂

[@TheBypasser]

7:06 - I'd add that there is no shoot-through current, ever. The gate threshold voltages of the transistors are chosen for the open-circuit regions to overlap, so the only currents that flow are those supplying the gate charge and overcoming the Miller's effect.

[@AI6XG]

If you think the chip failed due to ionic contamination simply bake the chip overnight at ~250C and see if there is any recovery. The ionic contamination is usually Na+ which has high mobility in SiO2 at elevated temperatures. If the failure is due to ESD there will be no recovery and most often ESD will take out one input rather than the whole chip failing. Latchup induced failure will usually cause high current flow so you will often see visual evidence even at the magnifications you were looking at the chip with. Some curve tracer work will also sort out these failures. Enjoy your videos, good stuff, keep them coming! de AI6XG

[@RMphy89]

Makes me wish I had taken computer class more seriously in high school. Love the tear down. Very interesting how these chips and crystals work.

[@BDTech-yi6ub]

Well what am I going to do now? I’ve watched all your videos. Absolutely love watching your stuff. Vintage tech always amazes me and while I could never do what you do I wish I had the time, money and knowledge to. Living vicariously though your videos.

[@blapty]

"link in the Doodley Doo" 🤣🤣🤣

[@MVVblog]

I'm looking at ken's blog, it's amazing!

[@JoshuaNicoll]

The slightly poor layer alignment maybe was why the IC failed and the others did not, it's no secret that better made IC's last long, but back then it could also have been impurities, commerical level production will always not be as good as the absolute best we can make.

[@olik136]

Nice- now I am anxious about my CPU dying of electromigration...

[@KingJellyfishII]

Same bro

[@TheRailroad99]

undervolt it and cool it well, don't OC it, that will increase the lifetime dramatically. even at stock voltages, CPUs last very VERY long, usually outlasting their motherboards. Even ~20 year old Pentium III / IV CPUs still work great today, even if used heavily. it's only the really old CPUs (30y+) like the motorola 68K series that start to fail often these days. Sad for collectors, but a CPU lasts FAR longer than its usable lifespan (which might be 10-15 years today - I would say core 2 duo are the oldest CPUs that are still somewhat usable for normal desktop tasks).

[@KingJellyfishII]

@@TheRailroad99 ok so my computer will theoretically last for a max of 20 years ish?

[@TheRailroad99]

@@KingJellyfishII depends on the other components, especially motherboard and PSU, temperature and how good you take care of it. But yes, 20years can easily be achieved.

[@cjay2]

My ancient mid-70's Signetics 2650 8-bit CPU still works fine in the project that I put it in, in 1976. So do all the other chips, such as the 2102 RAMs and all the logic. The Motorola MC3410 DAC still works as well, and so does the 2708 EEPROM that holds the program. That's 44 years now.

[@Graham_Langley]

Had a ULA design done back in the early 80s. Initial production was shipped in ceramic packages with the tops misaligned just enough that when loaded into standard IC tubes that allowed a bit of movement many would arrive with the tops sheared off.

[@woodrunner51]

I cant believe i get too see this stuff on youtube for free :D

[@mmaranta785]

Space Odyssey theme while using that end mill on the crystal. Priceless!

[@TheRealColBosch]

That was a fantastic explanation by you and Ken. I am now completely convinced that electronic circuits are High Magic Indeed. :D

[@peteroneill404]

Recently had two MC14516 counters fail in HP3580A spectrum analyzers, both chips had date codes from the mid 1970's. I suspect these had similar type of failure as the functional failures and the manufacturers were different, also in these cases ESD is an unlikely cause.

[@talkinghat88]

You have brought art into technical learning…🎶🎵

[@rich1051414]

The classical music overdub of the endmilling. You like AvE I see.

[@bigbaddms]

Richard Smith what is ave?

[@rich1051414]

@@bigbaddms A skookum channel.

[@BlackEpyon]

No bukkake machine. I'm disappointed.

[@ManofCulture]

@@BlackEpyon XD Bukkake

[@BlackEpyon]

@@ManofCulture Why that coolant is WHITE, I can not fathom.

[@XMarkxyz]

The decapping musical sequence is so oddly relaxing

[@gwyllymsuter4551]

I'm looking forward to watching curiousmarc repair the remaining failed clock modules

[@ryanmalin]

thought I was watching an AvE video for a minute there with the doobly do and classical music during milling procdeures!

[@pnadk]

Strauss is rotating in his grave at 1.01M rotations per second.

[@heyitsandrew2209]

Man after just watching Applied Sciences video on ultrasonic soldering, I'd love to see if it would work on repairing the broken quartz.

[@mrnmrn1]

Or reconnecting the 4069 die :)

[@nigeljames6017]

Wow, this brings back memories ! I used to be employed in a classified position in the British government trying to protect communications in the early seventies. When I first joined we were using low power T.T.L. then people got rather exited to see that stores on site had a few CMOS chips available. Those were soon snapped up and people soon saw the possibilities these devices would offer. I got my hands on a few and made a couple of shift registers to test bit encryption algorithms. Taking things a little to far, I pushed the clock speed too far and was very surprised to see the current rise rapidly and the chips radiate like little angry bees. It took me a little while to realize my mistake. The clock speed had turned the P-Channel and the N-Channel transistors almost directly across the positive and ground, creating a short. I was young, it wasn’t my last electronic folly !

[@ethanshenfeld8141]

Wonderful video, you explain everything elegantly

[@VicVlasenko]

2:50 in my childhood we used a sandpaper for such delicate operations :-)

[@alpagutsencer]

Marc, thank you for the video. It made my day. Such a great repair stories spiced with good good information.

[@MadRC]

Very interesting indeed. We forget sometimes these things have a tough life before they get to us.

[@stiff629]

Amazing on how small even for a 1968 chippy. Bravo

[@mrfashionguy1]

"Even your Intel CPU will one day die to electro-migration" P A N I K *Remembers I have a Ryzen CPU* K A L M

[@unknown14191]

Still the same

[@michaelallison2836]

That was the joke.

[@unknown14191]

@@michaelallison2836 Maybe electro-optical CPUs could solve the issue of electromigration in the future.

[@mima85]

Those early CMOS ICs are a nightmare in vintage synthesizers, especially analog ones. Replaced a lot of them in my synths. Together with op-amps and capacitors, they're a common failure point.

[@trulyspinach]

2:08 the drill is dancing to the music !!

[@tuanbe]

Waltzing

[@newton6664272]

You can open ceramic components easily if you start by making a slight cut or scratch with a cutter right under the lid. This way the glass frit sealing will break at the scratch and you can save the wires unbroken. This will allow you to test each inverter separately and guess wich part of the die is failing.

[@turpialito]

Nerdy! Thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm definitely milling my decap bin from now on!

[@tekanova7480]

I'm baffled how modern IC's are created with...voodoo, but this 4000 series chip is also mysterious, the process is 50 + years old how did they create this early chip?

[@MetalMusicManiac]

Blue Danube plays in the background while sloooooowly removing cap

[@squirlmy]

Why hasn't KZbin's algorithms recommended you to me before? Brilliant work!

[@beauhatman4395]

because yt's algorithms are a joke!

[@Bierkameel]

For a moment I thougt this was uncle Bumblefucks channel with the clapped out Bridgeport and the classical music.

[@ImSpinksy]

I love your videos, but I miss seeing you guys together in the lab. Damn COVID!

[@vanhetgoor]

It is impossible to keep on repairing old electronics, one day it will stop. Some old transistors are already gone and can't be found anymore, neither can the be reproduced, the machines are gone too. Replacing old components with newer components, or stuffing new components inside of the old casing will stretch out the time, but the day will come that old electronics are only history.

[@BlackEpyon]

You've got the Town Pump, you've got the AvE music, but you forgot the bukakke machine!

[@redesign3dp]

I don't know how I found this video, but in a weird way... I always wanted to know this...?

[@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365]

Love your music choices ☺️

[@user-zh6mu7yz4w]

It seems like electrostatic discharge break. 5:53, bottom right corner, white mark between traces.

[@skfalpink123]

Another amazing video Marc.

[@kramer3214]

How did the chip fail electrically? There are many ways to isolate an electrical failure. PEM (Photon Emission Microscopy) or OBIRCH (Optical Beam induced Resistance CHange) would work well on this chip, which likely has some type of curve trace anomaly.

[@sycholicthebigdukesix3441]

My old Atari 800XL suffered the same inverter gate chip failure which led to issues in the display.

[@daakrolb]

Very very interesting stuff.

[@stephenwong9723]

Wow! Amazing video! I mean the drilling part together with music!

[@hachiko_6139]

I was kinda curious to look inside it!!

[@ocayaro]

I once dropped a plug -in crystal and that was the end of it. It was the only one I had at the time.

[@z_polarcat]

Can you please make a video explaining how chips are designed? All I see here are lines!

[@CuriousMarc]

You should go to Ken’s blog at righto.com . He has many articles where he explains how chips are designed.

[@Manojlucknowi]

It's so informative Thanks

[@cda32]

Thanks for doing this, really interesting!

[@TeganBurns]

So much wisdom in the comments

[@10100rsn]

I approve of method of decapping.... and choice of music. ;)

[@xponen]

I think the CMOS IC chip is most likely damaged by an Overvoltage rather than by electromigration, because 1) the size of the trace is way larger than in modern CPU, so how could it be less resilient than a modern CPU to electromigration, which lasted a decade. 2) Overvoltage damage is when a transparent oxide layer is shorted, so there's no way to see it with optical microscope, like in this instance, so I think it is Overvoltage damage.

[@CuriousMarc]

Not electro migration on these early ICs. Ionic contamination or migration.

[@SkyOctopus1]

"There was no sign of catastrophic damage".. other than chisel blow.

[@CuriousMarc]

But it will buff right out...

[@MrMaxeemum]

Fantastic video as always.

[@kashewz]

Very interested in the tools you used to open such delicate components

[@edgeeffect]

So good when Ken or Carl come out to play... I miss the old team.

[@CuriousMarc]

Me too! But we'll be back.

[@placericona7151]

Great work!

[@theoflashdrive1644]

Interesting, Marc!

[@ixus80is]

Very Interesting Content! Can you tell me what kind of digital(?) microscope you use? Those images look really good.

[@stonent]

I noticed there was a ding in the can of the crystal at the top, but looked like it was convex. Must have been quite a shock. I guess the vacuum snagged the crystal flake.

[@RetroGadgetMan]

So interesting!

[@TestEric]

Fantastic, nice job.

[@lumpyfishgravy]

I can't be the only one blowing at the screen during the crystal decapping.

[@FesixGermany]

Classical music while watching a Frenchman in California opening a dead quartz crystal with a milling machine...

[@spugintrntl]

What an age we live in, amirite?

[@cjay2]

Italian, not French.

[@sti_clone3840]

No idea what you where saying...but I did enjoy seeing inside :D

[@pcjohn0308]

Very informative video, thank you !

[@valuepurposemission7517]

the instilled confidence of technical terms ... @ see "dooodly doo" :))

[@jorgemariofernandezfuentes3399]

Las personas que conocen y entienden la disposición y el comportamiento de los semiconductores dentro de los circuitos integrados, están en el top de la inteligencia.