Inside Road Cycling's Only Independent Bike Testing

[@derfx89]

Love the interview! As a German, this guy just epitomizes the German engineer.😂 you ask a question, I answer your precise question. Nothing more, nothing less, no speculations. If you want me to expand on it, you need to specifically say so.

[@adamchalmers9521]

No wasted words from our mate Robert. Precise and to the point. Love it.

[@richardggeorge]

As an Australian engineer it was always a pleasure to deal with German engineers in my automotive career 👍

[@origmarm]

So exactly this. Love it!

[@davemellor4697]

Thats why all my 4 cars are German.....

[@bbeeaauu]

Did you catch the name of the German based wheel manufacturer that makes aerodynamic, stable and affordable wheels?

[@nomadcarpenter8549]

Yes! Finally, you guys found out about tour magazine. And even better, you've actually brought them into the light.

[@Gufolicious]

One of the best guests so far! You guys are really outdoing yourself. Thank you for this.

[@peterm.7497]

His office is a sign of genius. Dylan Johnson is on the edge of his seat. Can we request Dylan be the Tour Magazine Person of the Year?

[@josipX]

Insane frequency of episodes, keep em coming. I listen during workouts and you guys keep me motivated at all times

[@speedsociety9177]

Robert is a mechanical engineer who dedicated his career to bike engineering, he knows his stuff with german precision 😊 fascinating!

[@robbiek4400]

+1 for being MORE than willing to subscribe or pay to see a website listing all Tour's testing data for all of this! At minimum make an English version of your site. Thanks guys for bringing him on!

[@nomadcarpenter8549]

Google Auto Translate has worked well enough for me to get the gist

[@richardhagedorn7421]

I’m late to this comment but there is an option to translate the page to English on google

[@Adanteh]

This is going to be a banger. Great work on the recent shows, really great stuff.

[@Cyclingabout]

Thanks for this interview! 👏🏼 The Tour Magazin data is amazing, I think they have stiffness tested over 1500 different frames now. When you combine it all into one spreadsheet, you can clearly see how frame stiffness has changed over time. Some manufacturers are slowly increasing stiffness and others decreasing it. There are differences between carbon, aluminium and steel frames, and between categories of bike (endurance, race etc). Their data is also an easy way to see which seatposts offer the most compliance, which IMO is one of the best upgrades you can do to any bike. Keep up the great work. ⚡

[@jzpat9785]

Kudos to Tour, the only proper magazine with proper data and reference on the WW forum. All the rest on the Web/printed press are just paying ads. Kudos to you guys also for bringing him to the show. Only suggestion for Tour maybe is to be clearer as to zipp and standard setup testing and giving values across yaw angles would also be cool.

[@headofmyself5663]

Really? I always thought that others doing similar measurements to get an objective opinion about a bike. The tour magazin is doing this stuff for a long time. I think they defined the STW nearly 30 years ago. Greetings from Germany

[@PK-qq1lz]

The last six bikes I bought were tested great at the tour magazine ( I am a subsciber of tour.) So to me these tests have a big impact. Thanks for this video.

[@Luffnyc]

Thanks for getting him on the show! As a data junkie, it’s a fascinating interview

[@robredpath9860]

Why have I only just found out about this great man and his work! This is what we have all been asking for! Independent testing of various frames. This is mind blowing. So good I feel like I need to watch this a few times. What tyres did he mention where fast and cheap? Did he say lazer?

[@headofmyself5663]

Leeze

[@hhansen3551]

Please note that cheap in this case is around €1400.

[@LukasRiepe]

They also have cheaper carbon wheels. He is talking about the CC 50 Basic which is 899,-

[@happydays8171]

Wow, your questions are point on. I can't get enough of this info. This is what I ask when looking at a new bike. Great interview.

[@rickmancini772]

This was brilliant. Chris and Jesse continue to put out the best cycling content on the internet. It would be great to hear more from Robert about the impact of the upper body dummy on the aero testing. My thought is that when you include the totality of the rider/bike system, riding in real world conditions, any aero benefits of the frame are negligible. Wheels and tires make the difference.

[@gabrieltaylor697]

Great pod, a great shame they can’t just publish a table comparing all the bikes on the same wheel set

[@nomadcarpenter8549]

In total agreement

[@TBarsss]

One of the best guests so far! Loved the questions & conversation.

[@michaelbradbrook9575]

Amazing content Team Nero Show! Robert knows his stuff and was a great guest to have on the show. Kudos 👍

[@Rasler63]

Excellent Episode. Its great to see the Tour testing spread to a wider audience. They really deserve the recognition and they helped me in my buying choices nearly every time. Would also love a second episode maybe about wheels or tires.

[@valiantabello]

Tour Magazine used to come in English; if we, as a community, come together and ask for it to come back they would do so. In my opinion

[@luigibirillo6629]

Should be quite simple for them to make an English version with ChatGPT

[@derfx89]

Recently, they reuploaded their German Tarmac SL8 review in English, but I think that was a one-off.

[@janeblogs324]

KZbin/Google does it automatically, you call it a magazine but is it a video, a website?

[@derfx89]

@@janeblogs324 it's a German cycling magazine that also has a website. And yes, you could translate the website, but AFAIK they don't upload all articles and tests.

[@davefitz2303]

Amazing work guys. Cutting edge. Tour mag been around for awhile but this interview really exposed and explains some great info.

[@Yanceyray]

Great interview and thanks for dropping it in the new year content drought season.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Our pleasure!

[@tomasberka2124]

Excellent choice guys with this guest! Based on the TOUR Magazine testings, I have splashed my cash twice already. Super happy in both cases (although not fancy/insta bikes). Keep up the great work, your show is truly awesome!

[@occyman]

Cervelo S5 20% less stiff than SL8.. there will be many in the Sydney bubble super upset about that 😂

[@shimona500]

But it won the tours this year!!! Gotta be the best just by that measurement

[@TheCharnwoodCyclist]

The riders won the tour, I think they would have won on any of the world tour bikes.

[@shimona500]

@@TheCharnwoodCyclist The tour winning was the argument from chris, or maybe it was just really deadpan.

[@janeblogs324]

Read the renneherse article where they custom made 4 bikes from soft to stiff. The noodle frame won every hillclimb/heart rate/knee pain test. You can ride longer with less strain.

[@STiPowered]

The cusp of this was SL8 is 20% stiffer yet more comfortable.

[@ShawnIsBatman]

This was an amazingly good interview! My biggest hope is that Tour Magazine sees the potential in the English speaking market and puts out an English option for an online subscription, I would definitely support them. My two biggest take-aways were 1) in the aero-bike market, the differences between the top performing bikes is not a lot. As we all likely know, the performance level of the top-tier bikes is generally excellent and you are paying (potentially a lot) for not a lot of difference/return. 2) the observation that beyond about a 40mm or 50mm depth wheel does not make much sense in most cases, certainly as a general-purpose wheel. Again, I would have likely assumed that, however, it was great to hear the confirmation on this.

[@Vjhuh]

Guys, what a suprise with the very last episode of the show in 2023! Keep dong what you're doing, cheers!

[@jonosoup]

Great video thanks!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks so much!!

[@DPbike]

For a coffee ☕️. If I’d bought a magazine with all this detail would have cost more than a coffee!

[@sly7917]

LOVE that you guys are killing it! Love the content keep em coming!

[@volkervoit]

Is somebody not going to mention the book shelf behind the guy 😅 what a great engineer’’s mess, love it. Great interview

[@livibam]

This was brilliant guys. Jesse really came into his own here.

[@origmarm]

The most superbly German man - straight answer - 'Yes'. Love it!

[@bryansehl1887]

In my opinion this show was the most informative and helpful show you have presented. Thank you, keep up the great work!!

[@crailwah]

Top notch stuff . This is honestly the only objective bike review there is

[@julienhuxley4172]

What a great episode, thanks for bringing these guys to light I will definitely check out their magazine. Also, how long till Chris throws his S5 into a ditch and comes onto the show with a brand new SL8?

[@johnnydarko8031]

this Podcast goes from strength to strength. Chapeau.

[@jwfriar]

Another great episode guys. Gotta ask Jesse as the resident Specialized hater what he thought of the sterling review of the SL8

[@BevandEdMusic]

I don't know if he ever doubted that they were actually good, it's probably more the insane amounts of money to get your hands on one. When maybe the average spesh punter could pay 50% as much and get 98% as much bike.

[@jwfriar]

@@BevandEdMusic nah - Jesse is taking swipes at Specialized constantly. Rewatch when the SL8 was introduced as a pertinent example, he dissected the marketing language and was quite snide about the whole thing. Lot of other examples where he take pot shots for no reason. I’ve learned to really like Jesse, but that bias against certain brands was a turnoff for me on this show when I started watching earlier on.

[@BreakawayB]

🤩 Wow what an excellent person to interview, great job to everybody involved!

[@_gregvalencia]

Amazing episode as always!! Came here to comment that Alex from GCN might be doing some crit racing in Australia early in the year. If you guys could get him on the show, that crossover would be epic. Maybe another video of you all racing together?

[@_gregvalencia]

He mentioned at the very end of "The Ultimate Crit Bike Build | Part 2" on the GCN Tech channel that he was planning on bringing the bike he was building up "down under." Obviously Australia is a massive country so he might not even be close to you but I figured it would be worth a shot to comment

[@jimmyduffer9769]

Great show. I'm finding these podcasts better and better. I was a bit confused on the top bike for 2023. He seems to point at the Scott Foil. I own this bike and love it, but maybe he understood the question as , what's the 5th rated bike?

[@markhagen7777]

There are only a Few places that bring the level of rigor that tour magazine provides thanks for having them on

[@RadCJ33]

As someone working in the industry, I love the objective testing of Tour magazine, and at the same time see the negatives to it. I would love to see more of the data they have (drag on specific yaw, and with reference wheels) being published, and maybe even have the simulation tool on their website so people can see what really is the best product for them specifically. The negative side to their testing being the only objective testing in the industry gives huge power to it. There is a race to get the best number in Tour magazine, but it does not necessarily mean it is the best product for you. For example, every time they change their testing method (for example when they added comfort or drag measurements), it completely changed the rating of bikes, meaning bikes all of a sudden became better or worse, and it actually changed how bikes look.

[@rickjansky1560]

Great show! Thanks for introducing Tour magazine. Never heard of them before your show. Can’t wait to check out their website.

[@LeonidKolomiytsev]

Love it, great episode! Thank you so much! *the wheel brand - leeze

[@jamesbrickwood7414]

That was a fantastic show. Thank you !

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@APKManagement-rg4px]

Here, it's still 2023. What a way to end the year. Thank you.

[@cyclistshub]

Time to brush up on my German and start reading. 😀Thanks for the interview, guys.

[@TexX414]

Thanks

[@BevandEdMusic]

The Nero Show has given me the best presents this Christmas!!

[@Matt28NJ]

I had a paid subscription to Tour during the brief period where they offered fully English translations. Worth every penny of its price - wish they'd bring it back.

[@kurtleitch5240]

Nice episode lads, this has been a great Xmas period!!

[@terriok]

Fantastic episode! Great work guys and looking forward to where you’ll go in 2024.

[@marsileo82]

What a spectacular interview!!! I agree with the sentiment that we need this resource, but I laugh at his apparent disinterest in providing this outside of the current market 😂.

[@spuds1002]

Great interview gents, data driven/ evidence based goes hand in hand with subjective reviews on bikes. Keep up the great work!

[@johnnguyen4023]

Does anyone know how to spell the name of the German wheel company that is mentioned at 49:00 of the podcast?

[@LukasRiepe]

Leeze

[@maxgrass8134]

great episode! gotta love Tour Magazin! Have been reading it for years!

[@rupert802]

you should try to get the simplon for a test ride - looks awesome!

[@yeyo9664]

Something like bicyclerollingresistance for frames and wheels would definitely be a hit. Very interesting interview.

[@daviddjerassi]

A Top video for the end of year thank you both Happy new year .

[@glennicol1361]

It will be interesting to see how Roglic goes on his new bike.

[@adamchalmers9521]

Great episode. Thanks guys. Could you confirm the name/spelling of the Wheelset he mentions around the 48 minute mark. I cannot find any info and the transcript doesn’t contain the spelling just references L as the brand. Many thanks and good luck for 2024.

[@headofmyself5663]

Leeze!

[@adamchalmers9521]

@@headofmyself5663 Thank you. 😀

[@lukewalker1051]

Well done guys. Maybe the pinnacle of your episodes to date as your questions relative to speed difference between top bikes were on point. As a mechanical engineer, conversations like this...what is important to measure, is always a fascination. A bit confusing about the 20% greater stiffness of the Tarmac SL8 considering the forgiving ride quality of the SL8 aka it's vertical compliance so more could have been discussed to address true stiffness difference as the metric considered important for speed is sometimes referred to as torsional stiffness which is actually a combination of vertical and horizontal stiffness. No doubt Robert understands this relationship and could have explained it in greater detail, i.e. how the SL8 is considered to have a very compliant ride and yet its magic sauce for speed is its stiffness. Seems on its face contradictory unless stiffness is considered/measured in the lateral or torsional plane, and the stiffness 'for speed' is other than in the vertical plane.

[@super8hell]

The vertical compliance of the SL8 is a wallet, the owner is sitting on.

[@lukewalker1051]

@@super8helltrue dat.

[@maximkrivov]

This is amazing! Its just all there 😮 please let us have a way to access it.

[@AlistairLattimore]

What a great interview!

[@wrwicky]

Like Jesse, I would happily pay for a data subscription. I think I’ll try to purchase an online sub, and hope google translate can get me close enough. Another great episode! Banger after banger this holiday season!

[@davidhunternyc1]

What's the name of the German bicycle wheels you talked about? Thank you.

[@LukasRiepe]

Leeze

[@lokenoreo]

What was the small German wheel brand he mentioned as performing well?

[@ultimatist]

Leeze

[@lokenoreo]

Thank you!

[@glennoc8585]

Its all very 'Vorsprung durch teknik' y'know. I like how they use a constant and beneficial component au h as the wheels, tyres and bidon by the looks too. Thats important to optimise the tested bikes with a constant standard to show potential improvements.

[@F1FerrariFanatik]

great episode. really enjoyed this one !

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@peters8504]

Legendary episode. Wow.

[@nikolausschallhart8654]

I think Tour magazine does good testing - from a technical point of view. However, the big problem (in statistical terms) is, that with a sample size of 1, you never know whether differences between bikes are significant or not. What I mean by that is that most of their comparison tests are done (or at least have been done the last time I checked) with one frame in only one size per bike model. Therefore, their results only allow for limited conclusions to draw for people actually wanting to buy a bike. The aerodynamic properties of a certain model may change with frame size (slightly different tube angels and distances between front wheel and down tube) but also with changing air flow interactions with different body types of riders (a frame that works aerodynamically well with a slim rider with slim legs may not work so well in interaction with a more muscular rider...). In measurements of stiffness and weight, there may be even some differences on frames of the same model and in the same size but of a different production runs (= manufacturing tolerance). Don't get me wrong, Tour nontheless is doing a very good job in testing bikes and testing more frames of the same model may simply not possibel, because they won't get them from the manufacturers. But keep in mind, that the "best" bike testet in the Tour magazine is not necessarily the "best" bike you can buy.

[@Star14trek]

By the look of it Alex from @GCN (or Bob) will be racing his Crit bike while at Tour down under on is £3K bike. You could invite to local race 😁

[@JasonHindley]

The Simplon Pride 2 looks great but it seems quite difficult to get one in Australia

[@cliveastman6448]

I have had my eye on The Pride 2 for quite a while now. It's also unavailable to buy in the UK. 😢

[@DaM.1]

Specialized says that the SL8 is faster than the Venge. Acoording to Tour Magazin, it's not. SL8 is still very impressive, but no way it's more aero than the Venge

[@Arthur-vr6vf]

Great episode boys

[@Sfs678]

Thanks for the Podcast 🙏❣️

[@TheBassallyear100]

great pod cast! did anyone catch what the german made wheels brand are that he referenced as being stable in crosswind?

[@Gianniz27]

Leeze

[@TheBassallyear100]

@@Gianniz27 Thank you

[@LukasRiepe]

Leeze

[@bbeeaauu]

Did anyone catch the name of the German based wheel manufacturer that makes aerodynamic, stable and affordable wheels?

[@vishalbehal7746]

I was searching for the same from all that conversation and with caption i could not catch the name…super show the website is pretty complicated to find anything

[@bbeeaauu]

@@vishalbehal7746 so it appears to be Leeze

[@LukasRiepe]

Leeze

[@keatonhanson]

Woah! Can’t wait to listen!

[@danielmoorhouse6506]

Chris. Get your take on the S5 then chop it for the SL8. That comparison would be you tube gold?

[@MReese1964]

When you reference watts, what is this in reference to?

[@SPLSE]

Great episode!

[@floam11]

Soo good. Again, amazing content! ❤

[@legaultben]

Yes!!! Amazing! Great show

[@PedalMat]

Great interview, thanks :-)

[@MazingerZX]

Love this episode!

[@MS-bw7yt]

Best episode ever!!!

[@inndoors]

Would love to see time trial bike testing!

[@michaelvaughn1807]

Great episode fellas! 👏

[@MrKipperfish]

39:40 did I just hear that they sometimes adjust the ride impression portion of the review to agree with the numbers? Why bother riding, then? And that they give numbers to a reviewer before a test ride at times? Confirmation bias, anyone? Theres definitely some lost in translation moments so far, but did he just say the quiet part outloud? One thing id love to hear some smart science people grapple with: does a less stiff BB actually reduce power output in a sprint? In seated riding? You always hear the theory that the frame will rebound, returning most of that "lost energy", but its always some facelwss forum user saying it. As always, i think stiffness conversations tend to converge on talking about the ideal crit bike, which is basically a race day special, rather than talking about what is the ideal bike that will be comfortable enough for training and also stiff enough for racing. At what point does it all just come down to tire pressure and size making a bigger difference than frame vertical compliance?

[@jameseastwood402]

All of that, but these are just objective comparative numbers for you to then make your own choice based on what is important to you. The numbers aren't an instruction as to what you should buy next.

[@Nick-rz6vq]

great stuff guys🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@TheCharnwoodCyclist]

Really interesting subject and interview. I struggle with how relevant it is for most of us though, unless competition is involved I think it’s easy to get caught up in these small differences between bikes. I would be far more interested in the subjective real world riding analysis.

[@thetinusnl8834]

The #1 problem of this otherwise AMAZING test is interpretability of results because it completely negates rider position (primarily stack/reach). E.g. how to interpret a super aerodynamic test result with upright geometry versus a non-aerodynamic result with aggressive geometry? Love the no-nonse German attitude of Robert.

[@87togabito]

Why does rider position matter? This is purely on the bike performance. What matters is that you just have the fastest bike, since for us non TDF riders, the bike is just a statement piece rather than something that we need to work with for our paycheck.

[@thetinusnl8834]

@@87togabito because bikes don't propel themselves. A rider is required and therefore you also have to account for the rider's position when talking about "bike performance".

[@ersari]

Surely the fact that the tests are conducted legs only eliminates that variability, which is rider not bike specific

[@janeblogs324]

Size of frame matters

[@Anon.User.602]

Nice episode.

[@CrazyAboutCycling]

Finally the English speaking world of KZbin has found the best testing in the world for bikes… the foremost place to re-educate on aerodynamics, some reality testing & overall package! It’s all about overall rim-tire-interaction! I feel like I have been saying it to our club without it being understood or heard. Foil RC is no.1, of 2023. The SL8 is an overall great package, 20% stiffer, vs S5. Plenty of bikes few know, like Simplon. @gcn wake up now. Smell the coffee, drink up Your Tea 🍵!!!

[@bbeeaauu]

Did you catch the name of the German based wheel manufacturer that makes aerodynamic, stable and affordable wheels?

[@Zahgil]

@@bbeeaauu Leeze

[@CrazyAboutCycling]

@@bbeeaauu lightbicycle

[@liamcycles5415]

It looks like they tested the old S5 when I searched on the website? Which compared to the new one is a big step below

[@rubendelrio6120]

What about the BMC TEAM MACHINE R01? Has it been tested? Where are the results?

[@MrJohnnyTN]

Banger way to end the year fellows.. but I dont want to get used to this .

[@edwarding4355]

I wonder the stiffness between sl8 s-works and regular sl8

[@Pillokun]

For me it is simple, if the bike is supposed to be used outside then I want a simple classical frame and shallow rims, because it is almost always windy in western sweden. I dont want any wind push me to the side, a while ago I tested a canyon something with deep rims and it was hell. No thanks, a classical non aero bike for me.

[@plantfuelled8912]

Same here, my local area is windy with steep100-200 metre hills. An aero bike would be pointless and annoying. I'd be blown all over the road and I'd be spending loads extra money for no gain. Add to that routing internal cable rounding though the bars. Horrendous. Classic bike with 1300-1800g alloy rims, alloy frame minimal internal cable routing save money and have a more practical bike. If I lived in Florida I might think differently..