The Vow: SARAH EDMONDSON talks NXIVM, Allison Mack & More

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Sarah Edmondson (TheVow) joins us this week and shares her entire experience in NXIVM, a cult connected with Smallville co-star Allison Mack and known for manipulating its members emotionally, financially, and sexually.
Sarah talks about how the cult’s leaders dismantled the intuition of its followers by erasing their moral compass.
She also gets into her ‘waking up’ moment that triggered her departure, her experience with the group’s brainwash, and the shock of realizing some of the misconduct after the fact.
The Vow: Sarah Edmondson (2020) | Inside of You Podcast w/ Michael Rosenbaum #anxiety #insideofyou

[@InsideOfYouPodcast]

Crazy stories this week. Hope you folks enjoy this one 💙 Subscribe!

[@prncssgk19]

I’m sure it will be awesome as usual! 💙

[@franktaylor595]

Oh I'll enjoy 😁 😉

[@officialdanrocha]

I've been watching the doc on HBO, and holy shit! I'm glad Sarah was able to share her story even more.

[@juanolivier8537]

Will be tuned in

[@jdc1979]

It’s hard to judge and not to judge. I don’t know how I would have reacted when faced with the situation. But people do crazy things to belong. We just need to be careful about our situation

[@annabellemora7950]

I remember being in College and one of my Professors asked to see me during office hours. She wanted to "mentor" me because she felt she saw a lot of herself in me and wanted me to reach my max potential. So she took me to an ESP class and remember felt pressured to sign up for the 5 day right then and there. They would not let me leave without signing up! I said I had to get my credit card from my car and ran! I dropped her class and avoided her for the rest of my college days. The cult vibes were real!

[@ChristinaTaft]

I'm glad you left. Anything internalizing which can make a person trapped in their head instead of externalizing to be action-focused is harmful.

[@annabellemora7950]

@@ChristinaTaft Absolutely. In the beginning I really wanted to do it. I was young, vulnerable with low self esteem and they sold me on how much more I could accomplish if I would stop doubting myself. It was when they kept insisting I signed the paperwork and left the check right then (also the look in their eyes!) that raised a huge red flag and I knew if they would pressure me like that, they were not trying to help me.

[@HelloNewMoon]

Yikes!!!! What an abuse of their position!!

[@MariaEmmaBelfort]

Wow!

[@disneytoysr4fun975]

but what if it really would have helped you? I'm super shy so i would probably like a class like that.

[@ambzerambzer8800]

Michael is such as perfect interviewer, I’ve noticed in all of them, he’s great at keeping the pace, he lets them talk and switches the subject when needs to, he’s so kind, genuinely interested, and doesn’t push people into becoming uncomfortable. And all of his own comments and stories are totally valid or funny and fair. He’s just so great at it, that I’ll even probably listen to some episodes with people I don’t even know about and get to know them and their story

[@pniner]

He's a masterclass, really. This is the perfect length and format for his syle.

[@kiradanae6743]

I loved when Sarah lost her train of thought, and Michael showed how engaged he is by recapping in his own words what Sarah had been talking about and then seamlessly transitioned to the next topic. He’s impressive!

[@b14ker14]

Except where he says he would ask questions anyway and he didn't ask Kristin kreuk about any of the nxivm questions

[@BrosephComrade]

THE MOTH FACE

[@drCuddl3z]

stop simping

[@charlesderosas5577]

That cooking part with Allyson's friends was a trip.

[@brandocabz1023]

watch that clip end up in the vow season 2 lol

[@charlesderosas5577]

@@brandocabz1023 if they had smart phones maybe lol.

[@kellyl7688]

Yeah, totally weird.

[@JD-dr3rg]

Haha his reaction was hilarious. Can't wait to see the interview they have with Nancy salzman.

[@taylorwelling9242]

Right!

[@raptorsentry]

"A hero is one who heals their own wounds, and then show others how to do the same." -Yung Pueblo Michael, Sarah, and every single guest on this show definitely fits the bill of being heroes.

[@loristrode9556]

idk about that Sara was still influencing the masses to be in a sex cult. I understand righting your wrongs but she has a long way to go before becoming a hero.

[@Starree744]

All of these doc's coming out about Nexium now is so weird for me to watch. Sarah Edmonson was my camp counselor as a kid. She was everyone's favourite counselor. It's just so strange to see her talk about these awful things she was pulled into. I'm so glad she's doing better and was part of the fight to get Keith rainere in jail.

[@ginagrittani5231]

Cults exist. We must educate and protect ourselves. Thank you for this informative podcast.

[@KrisBryant99]

Not really. You just got to know what your mind wont tolerate but I DO agree that cult personalities do exist but cults dont exist by fate. You just have to know what feels off for your organic thinking.

[@Hillary-._]

I hope NXIVM being exposed will help Scientologists realize how these tactics parallel with their “religion.”

[@jungleGSC]

the same could be said about any religion. don't pick on scientology like its the only bullshit religion out there. they're all bullshit.

[@lja530]

@@jungleGSC Number one, "religion" is not the same as "church". One is something personal, while the other is an organization. Number two, organizations can demand outrageous amounts of money from people (like scientology) and pressure people into cutting ties with people on the outside. The Catholic church and any of the Christian bodies that separated from the Church during the Reformation don't tend to operate that way. Well, a lot of them still bully people when they're gay, but that's a another story.

[@jungleGSC]

@@lja530 you're buggin. the catholic church is the wealthiest landowner and money lender in the world

[@SDesWriter]

@@jungleGSC No it couldn't. People who say that know nothing about religion. Most religions tell you up front what they are going to do (and what you need to do) and let you make the choice. The other main difference is most religions NEVER ask you to distance yourself from your friends or family (they encourage you to be a good influence on them). That's how you know you're being conned by a cult.....because they tell you things to isolate you and make you more vulnerable.

[@jungleGSC]

@@SDesWriter ok buddy

[@TheMelMan]

This was incredibly insightful. And really sad. I really loved Allison Mack as a kid. So sad that her life and all these other people went like that. Glad Sarah and her family got out.

[@taffysaur]

I felt the same, I always had such a crush on her. Well, more on the character of Chloe, but yeah...

[@Mythowars]

I watched smallville after it had finished viewing on tv. My buddy had the box set at his place and I as a huge Superman fan said yo what are these. He said dude you haven’t seen this show? And popped it in. I binged and binged and loved it and it’s characters. About a month after I finished the show I figured out about Allison Mack and my chest sank. I was like Michael and said to my friend holy shit I can’t believe it she seems so sweet.

[@catspaw3092]

It's hard to believe she would fall into this why would she ask Keith to help her become a great actress again when she already was? If she felt she wanted to talk to someone she should've went to a therapist & lets not for get her castmate Kristin got Allison into the cult. Had Allison not been to NXIVM she would still be acting today..

[@miriamhavard7621]

​@@catspaw3092maybe, maybe not.

[@hankbug]

I just finished the series "The Vow" and I can't believe how long Keith Raneire was allowed to navigate in this world. Sarah, Bonnie, Catherine, actually all the women/men that fought to bring this to light are brave beyond measure. Thank you Michael for interviewing such an incredible woman.

[@Deedubau]

They would still be around if it wasn't for Sarah and Mark trying to actively stop them. I can't exactly blame anyone for leaving and not doing anything about it because they had tons of money to go after and threaten anyone who tried to take them down.

[@hankbug]

@@Deedubau Exactly.

[@miriamhavard7621]

​@@hankbugmale chauvinistic behavior is still very much acceptable to men AND women.

[@leannepritchett6323]

Sarah is a brave woman to come on and share her story. This is going to be a powerful episode that we can all learn from. Thank you Rosey for dedicating this episode to such an important topic❤️

[@EngineerInMotion]

Are you related to Jay Pritchett?

[@leannepritchett6323]

Nope. No relation.

[@meredithheath5272]

@Bobby yeah - turns out, apparently, that she benefitted from "next victim", but when the house if cards began to fall, she figured that she would be smart and play the victim, so she would escape legal charges

[@christofl6523]

She is just as guilty as the others. None of them including Keith should have gone to prison because they all chose to be in that group. There were no victims until after the fact.

[@danyluk1]

she's a phony

[@BM-in9xi]

I’m so proud of everyone that was involved speaking out.

[@KrisTomLuver]

Thanks for having her on your podcast! I think it's so important that this story keeps getting shared so that stuff like this doesn't happen to anyone else. Sarah is so refreshing! She is down to earth and so real about her experiences and her courage and strength is inspiring! Also, seriously, your podcasts are great and the only ones I listen to!

[@peterp8542]

Just started watching the vow, I never understood how people can get involved in such crazy situations but the 1st episode provides a lot of clarity.

[@beyonce3]

After episode one I wanted to join 👀

[@AlyxCoe]

Not enough clarity, as far as I'm concerned. I've got questions that probably never will be answered.

[@miriamhavard7621]

​@@beyonce3😂

[@dougpirko211]

I slept on this one last week, and just came back. So glad I did. This may be one of my favourite Inside of You episode.

[@arlo3502]

What I get from this is that, just as the people leaving NXVIM are going through a process of coming to terms with reality after leaving the cult, Michael Rossenbaum is also going through his own process of reconciling how this could have happened to his friend Alisson.

[@KrisBryant99]

NXVIM don't sound like a damn cult. It's just people having fun and doing what they want where as Sarah sounds like a jilted lover who probably got kicked put or wasn't favored 😂

[@JessimusPrime]

This was an excellent interview, Michael! I followed Smallville for the whole run and each cast member feels like a high school friend. Finding out Allison was so knee deep in it was shocking. I feel hurt for her and everyone who was affected by Keith ultimately. I’ve been absorbing all informations on this, just looking for answers. This was simply excellent. We can feel that you’re also shook by this, I think we’re all on that boat. Great educational tool to know what to look out for when it comes to cults. Seems like every generation has its prominent one and every generation has to be educated against them.

[@Reverb30]

This was a very powerful conversation because it touched a good amount of surface of what these cults are. Sarah was so candid about her thoughts and her own process on what she believed in and how a cult like this used her. She truly wanted to do good in the world, which we all do, as well as becoming better within ourselves. It’s scary to think how easy it is to fall into that. This was a major takeaway for all. Well done as always 👍

[@craigmcavoy445]

Crazy...I live literally five minutes from the houses where this went down. Rainiere lived across the street from a good friend. I interacted with some of the members- seemed a little weird and “new agey” but no clue what was really going on. It’s so weird watching it on TV! So glad they got out and got help.

[@pucktie215]

I was at Silver Bay when Nexium stayed there. Crazy.

[@PolarisCastillo]

How would you interact with the members?

[@-M0LE]

@@PolarisCastillo exactly

[@MariaEmmaBelfort]

Wow!

[@miriamhavard7621]

You could write a paper or an article based on sharing your experience and perspective!

[@jimbobjunior.]

I would never have fallen into it purely because I'm way too cheap to spend even half that kind of money on anything!

[@ElanaVital83]

I wouldn't have fallen for it because my parents forced me to go to a creepy church as a kid. Anything where a group of people are trying to dictate how I am makes me claustrophobic

[@conniepomerleau821]

I have watched The Vow and all of Leah Reminis’ Scientology tv show and her podcast....... Keith definitely followed the same path as Hubbard. Way too many similarities to ignore, from the brainwashing and the terminology Sarah used. Such horrible human beings to do this to such good people! Thank you for sharing ❤️❤️ your journey

[@StephanieTips]

They both bashed therapy, they both were based on paying more and more money to get to a progressively better place and stage in the "cult"

[@tiffprendergast]

Yup

[@tiffprendergast]

@@StephanieTips yup

[@Raquel986]

Yep they both seem very similar!

[@christophersmyth1908]

Michael, the similarities between NXIUM and Scientology are so close. You should have Leah Remini and Sarah on together sometime.

[@gordenz24]

Michael thanks for doing this interview there is a lot of us that haven't heard the story

[@sjogre7789]

Don't feel to odd. People who knew Ted Bundy wanted him to run for public office. Because he was so charismatic.

[@MrSmith-zo6po]

After watching most of "The Vow" after starting this podcast, this woman deserves a medal.

[@jasonchicago7276]

I think Sarah is an extraordinary person. I appreciate everything she's doing. She's the kind of friend I would want in life.

[@s1thpunk]

What Michael didn't mention was that Kristen Kreuk was the one who introduced her (Allison) to this group in the first place.

[@bhargavipba]

And then Kristin got out before things started to get weird but Allison was sucked into it.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

@@bhargavipbaThings were weird from the start. Kristin worked that part out. Allison was drawn to the weirdness like a moth to a flame.

[@dbgreene9020]

Finally a full explanation of how this could happen to ANYONE. Really well done interview!!

[@ElanaVital83]

Not anyone. She did say about 1 out of 30 recruits didn't fall for this

[@iLoveBlink182sTom]

Can’t wait to watch this episode after Clinicals today. It’s definitely going to be an extremely interesting and powerful one! I admire her bravery to share her story ♥️

[@InsideOfYouPodcast]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@danyluk1]

Powerful ego and stupidity.

[@thewkovacs316]

@@danyluk1 that is all that it is about

[@Capronice]

I would find it very hard to trust anything Alison Mack ever says again. It appears to me that Alison Mack was fully aware what she was doing. She made sure the girls in DOS got branded. She wasn't like the ones who were branded and realized they were being abused. Mack was doing the abuse and took the role of master of the slaves. I think she was just as manipulative as Keith Raniere.

[@meredithheath5272]

👏👏👏👏 it turns out, Edmonson is just as manipulative as the others. She got smart, and got out just before the house of cards fell, and played the victim to escape legal charges

[@tiffprendergast]

Yup

[@tiffprendergast]

@Tasha Vladimiroff not true

[@theyoutubeanalyst3731]

@@meredithheath5272 how do you know that? And how she ended up getting branded if she was as manipulative as the others? Because I don't think Allison got branded

[@KrisBryant99]

​@@theyoutubeanalyst3731because the "cult" she escaped from was just people having fun where as you can tell she's just angry about not being favored anymore in it.

[@philipho188]

I was a huge fan of Alison Mack. If she approached me, I would've done anything for her. The people who are saying the vow people were stupid. Well if the right person approached you, you'll never know what you do...

[@richardbillingsley9553]

Exactly. You don't know.

[@ad8554]

The older I get I feel like it's more like Michael says oh I know my brother....do I?. The older I get the more I don't put things past people and become more cautious/ skeptical of people's intentions

[@kelly3014]

I agree.

[@AdultThirdCultureKid1971]

None of us knows what we'd do if we were in the Vow people's situation.

[@acer4237]

Good comment...it’s sometimes easy to get lured in regardless of rich or poor.

[@teeshirtandjeans84]

Scarred is such an amazing book. I highly recommend it, especially in audio book form (which Sarah narrates). Thank you for sharing your stories, Sarah. Much love and peace to you and your family ❤

[@jonathon8673]

Powerful eye-opening intense episode, glad you were able to have Sarah on to share her story. Thank you for another good one Rosey, appreciate all that you do.

[@sinman1968]

Sarah Edmondson expresses herself just like my spirit animal does. Thank you Michael and crew for a fantastic interview. Great editing and levels too.

[@Ireanna]

You should watch Seduced on Starz, they go into it a lot deeper than the vow.

[@dethtrip663]

I found the vow to be more interesting. Mainly because of how much footage they had. Listening to all the recorded phone calls you can actually hear what was said to justify the actions as well as what was said to pull people out of this thing. To me watching the vow it felt like I was right there with them as they were waking up to the insanity and blowing the whistle on this crazy ass cult.

[@nonnidreams]

🚨BIG SPOILER🚨‼️❗️ He “taught” to normalize “child pedophilia”...Cringe😬 E01 of Seduced: Inside The NXVIM Cult, near the end.

[@mykidsmomogx5]

I actually watched both the Vow and Seduced with my 18yr old daughter. Glad I did

[@nonnidreams]

@@mykidsmomogx5, I am having a hard time watching Seduced...so many cringey moments, as a highly sensitive, perceptive and empathetic person. Vow was easier, and interviews on KZbin. Very eye opening to know the signs to warn people from getting sucked into a cult, right?

[@briannalee1998]

I want to see it

[@maxcardun]

You're real bold about the subjects you put on your show. I heard at a Smallville Panel that people weren't allowed to ask about NXIVM, but here you are touching that subject.

[@ericsessa3579]

Great episode! I like how this one was slightly different in terms of its approach by tackling something that affected a lot of people but still retained the same tone as the rest of your podcasts.

[@CyclonChick]

This was an intense and insightful interview. Very brave and very candid, really enjoyed it, thank you!

[@vivianbloom166]

Great conversation - thank goodness Sarah had the courage to come forward! It put an end to abuses that could have gone on for years.

[@smdias65]

Wow. The loyalists that she mentioned sound like the female members of the Manson family who would stand outside the courthouse and shout about the injustice of Manson's trial. I'm glad she got out of that. Michael, did you ever think about calling your band (or duo I guess) Rosey Dan?

[@theoriginalsuzycat]

OMG I love this

[@AlizzaBliss]

I had the same reaction as Michael from the first ep then the second lol Like "That actually sounds interesting" to "Holy shit WTF!"

[@opindersangha2761]

Watch Seduced. The reaction you had, I had too. My questions were what happened? how did it happen? Nothing looks wrong here. Where as Seduced makes you see exactly what NXIVM was.

[@AlizzaBliss]

@@opindersangha2761 Yes!

[@lauragalvez3596]

iI love to listen to these podcast on a daily basis. They're so niceeee. I feel like i'm chatting with friends about interesting stuff.

[@nicholasmeola920]

This is a great interview. Michael having a personal connection with Allison Mack really helps to draw you in. Allison Mack did some horrible things and she is going to pay the ultimate price but there is a part of me that can't help thinking that at one time she was a normal innocent woman who got lured by a sexual predator.

[@bigmaky8253]

Mark Twain said, "It's easier to fool someone than convince them they've been fooled." Even more when you have "skin" in the game. That's why pro football players go broke chasing bad investments with worse ones. And that's how people join a self help group and, after paying lots of money and the giving of their time, chase a return on that investment. Trying to get that return creates a "blind spot" for evil. Instead of cutting your losses, you double down.

[@adrianacortez9064]

Yes I remember Mark Twain quite often. I read HuckleberryFinn and I remember my teacher quoting Mark Twain and I have never forgotten her lesson and she pointed it out where it happens in the book. It has stayed with me forever at all times and what I got from it is that these people that are deceiving get away with it oftentimes because those that catch on are too embarrassed to accept what had happened to them to tell and these con artists simply pick up their tents and continue their cons somewhere else

[@paulamarie43]

You handled the interview really really well. I just found your Chanel and I subbed for your authentic approach to real life. I honour this interview and pray the best for this family.

[@Isazouzi]

Congrats on this interview, you did an awesome job.

[@Playitstraight44]

That was one of the best interviews I've seen in years. Well done! Michael I think your questions were asked respectfully and done with tremendous tack. Just an incredible story.

[@silviar.7438]

Michael Rosenbaum is 48 ! Whaaaa... goddamn you aged well. You still look 35 you handsome man you

[@tinawindham6958]

A skinny Chevy chase

[@theresemarkham9387]

It was so brave of her to discuss this. I am so glad that she got out safely.

[@skiinian85]

I remember when my a capella group was being recruited by them in Albany back in 2007-2008. I remember joking that Keith looked like he thought he was the 2nd coming if Christ but also was so cool meeting Allison Mack. Never got sucked....but jeez who knew 😳

[@sablehillgsdsbecca3673]

Very insightful powerful interview, wow. Thank you Michael and Sarah for this. I always look forward to Tuesdsys now just to finish work come home unwined by listening to this great Podcast. I find myself being able yo relate to come of the guests and you Micheal. Looking forward to next weeks episode. Thank you to everyone that puts this Podcast to life.

[@amydearing9866]

I really wish they had talked about Nicki Clyne (also an actress) & how she is the one out dancing in front of the prison & married to Allison Mack

[@zoharracz1568]

Holy shit this gave chills. Sarah is a goddamn hero and her opening up to you all while holding the baby is an amazing display of maternal power

[@buffywasright]

I'm really conflicted about this. A hero? She seems so sweet and kind, and she ended up waking up, but are we supposed to just brush off the fact that, in her own words, she was directly responsible for recruiting 100 people, and indirectly 1000, who were then brainwashed? Some, if not all the women, abused? I don't know how to feel about this.

[@AngelsVoiceASMR]

@@buffywasright oh Jesus get off your high horse she did what ever she could to rectify things when she woke up. Have you ever tried to fix something like this bug in your life ... probably not .... smh

[@buffywasright]

@@AngelsVoiceASMR Calm down, snowflake. No, I haven’t had to fix in my life the fact that I’ve led women to abuse and branding. I said I was conflicted about it, I didn’t bash her. You’re the one on your high horse just now. Relax.

[@HelloNewMoon]

When you find out “Vanguard” was a character from an arcade game Keith used to play with little kids 😬

[@icegypsy99]

Back in college, they brought in a hypnotist for entertainment. You know the kind of thing where they bring random people up on stage and make them bark etc. I was always very skeptical of that sort of thing. Due to an incident from my childhood. I always had major trust issues. The thought of not having control of myself always terrified me. It's why I never got into drugs or drinking. Anyway, as this guy starts the show he starts talking in that soft calming therapist tone of voice. As he continues random people just start walking up on stage. It was the craziest thing. After about 20 minutes of him talking, I found myself compelled to go up on stage myself. The little voice in the back of my mind went; wtf wake up. Don't allow this guy get into your head and take control over you. If I almost gave in to that, I can see how even a strong willed person could get sucked into a cult like that. Scary that it went on as long as it did. I feel bad for the ones that lost years from their life they will never get back. I hope they are able to find their way back to their real selves against.

[@Raquel986]

Oh wow that’s crazy scary!

[@icegypsy99]

@@Raquel986 I watched some of the videos of Keith Raniere. talking to Allison Mack, and on occasion, he talked the way that hypnotist talked I saw back in college. very creepy to see

[@Raquel986]

@@icegypsy99 I have always wondered if hypnosis was real. But after reading what you said it’s really real! And after watching the Seduced documentary on Starz those people were really manipulative by using hypnosis. I’m going to find the video with Allison and that freak name Keith.

[@coldwhitespring5004]

Nancy Salzman did hypnosis before she got involved in Nexium.

[@heathercrates4139]

I finally watched Smallville this year. I watched through became a fan of Chloe, and the actress never heard of the Cult or the drama in the news or anything about it. Then was so bummed to find out I couldn't see her in anything else.

[@anekamckenzie9504]

Wow Michael, the last interview I really enjoyed was Kevin Conroy & I thought that was amazing. Congrats on another awesome interview this time with this powerful story about the Nexium cult. Keep up the good work. Hope you still get some good rest & recharge time in between working on your podcasts though.

[@tanyashearer4374]

Love that you had Sarah on the podcast. She is incredibly brave to tell us her story.

[@John-ip1bp]

Much respect Sarah ❤️ Your strength is an inspiration to so many. Thank you for sharing your story. I know it could not have been easy.

[@IronmanV5]

The real scary part of her story is how it could have happened to anyone, including myself. I'm Glad for her and her husband that they escaped and that they are doing better.

[@thewkovacs316]

think so? as wc fields said, you cant cheat an honest man

[@carletonlegrant5605]

@@thewkovacs316 Sorry would not happen to me I'm sorry but if people are stupid enough to get into a cult they deserve what they get. They must of not been very smart to begin with, Anyone who agrees to brand themselves is a moron that should of made these women get sane quick. These Women just did not have common sense.

[@tylermane77]

@@carletonlegrant5605 Ohh you're so tough. Spoken like somebody who has zero actual knowledge of how people get sucked into cults. And if you do, you actively reject it to peacock on the internet like an asshole.

[@icepikoftime]

I don't look down on people who are susceptible to joining a cult, but I and many others aren't one of them. I know it's very common to say "it could happen to you too" but I think it's a coping mechanism and that's a perfectly fine thing to say. Whatever helps you get there mentally.

[@taffysaur]

@@carletonlegrant5605 *should HAVE You should be sure of your grammar before crowing on the internet about how much smarter than everyone else you are.

[@RobertoGarcia-kh3pn]

Lex always seems to be a cool down to earth cat, I’m glad he did this podcast episode.. keep up the great work M.R.

[@tinawindham6958]

Meow

[@DonnaBoyleMedium]

And this is why I say, "there is no good/bad, right/wrong" You found your purpose in this experience. Look at what you are doing now. YOU ARE shifting Soul consciousness, Sarah. And you asked for a sign . . . you got it. Thank you for your service to all Souls. I appreciate the sacrifice you made for all of us.

[@ElanaVital83]

Nah. Don't make her a hero. Remember she hurt people, too

[@Moviefan2k4]

I saw a sit-down video with Allison and Keith Raniere once, and it was clear to me she was pretty much fawning over him. I have no idea what she saw in him, because to me he seemed like a slick-tongued weasel who was playing on her desire to be accepted. I'm glad she got out of his cult, but I really hope she gets some professional emotional help.

[@johnmunoz2320]

I have enjoyed all of your podcasts since I discovered it a few months back but lately you've been on an absolute tear. Thanks for all the hard work you put into this show, we appreciate you!

[@WTHFX]

Watching that Allison Mack video meeting Raniere the first time it's so obvious that she is exactly what he wants: emotionally and sexually vulnerable.

[@blu4085]

It was very eye opening to see that, the emotional state she was in right from the word go. She was ready to throw herself at his feet from the very first second. It really made me question what had happened to her previously? There must be a reason for a person to behave like a wet puddle in front of someone, completely surrendering her life to this STRANGER that you've only heard about. It is so extreme it's frightening that someones mind can get to such a place. I think she would have needed PROPER psychotherapy for whatever syndrome or trauma she suffered from, WAY before she ever heard a word about Raniere.

[@Papas321]

Thank you for keeping all of this in the forefront. People need to know what is happening.

[@backto-il9ne]

This is such a f**king amazing interview. Michael, you are the real deal. I wish you good health and happiness.

[@carlagriep78]

Amei esse podcast!!! Obrigada Michael!

[@sambo1696]

I didn’t realize she was 25 when she got into it that’s amazing

[@merrittfamilycircle]

Micheal I’ve been following your smallville podcast, and just started listening to your inside of you podcast, though I loved smallville, I think your really making a difference here! Keep up the good work, mad respect for you!

[@Coopenator]

There's so much of this that reminds me of Heaven's Gate. The insular community, the not questioning the leaders, etc.

[@pikasnipe1]

**This just out** India Oxenberg Docuseries coming to STARZ. *10/13

[@pikasnipe1]

I saw the report, I believe 2 hours after this dropped.

[@chrisozmcintosh8891]

Not sure how long your show has been back on video Rosey, but THANK YOU for bringing it back! I like the visual.

[@melijomides7317]

This is a powerful episode

[@rwhite9994]

Cults exist in all kinds of different forms. One of the most important lessons my parents taught me was, *you are nothing special*. People will tell you that you are, because they want something from you. Know the traps, strive to take care of yourself and family, and they are no shortcuts. Important lessons.

[@winkipinky]

Yo Michael, I just discovered this channel and I gotta say NICE JOB dude! Love the content!

[@davrob1973]

Ironic that I am watching this the day that Keith Raneirie got sentenced to 120 years!!

[@aprils6190]

same here!

[@gigia.3574]

Yes!!!!

[@macygrace2978]

Still GALLS me Allison has not spent one day in prison. She was bonded

[@HockeyVictory66]

She was already convicted last year and just hasn’t been sentenced yet. She is out on $5 million bail and confined to home vis an ankle tracking bracelet. She will definitely do time in prison.

[@nina-marie]

Deepest Condolences On Your Loss 😟 I've Been A Fan Of Yours Since "Smallville" & You'll ALWAYS Be The ONLY "Lex Luther" For Me ... You Brought A True Humanity To That Character - Thank You & Please Keep Up The Great Work !!!

[@chiefswife1212]

Why are these people in prison but scientology leaders continue to get rich?!! How's this possible??!!

[@stephw1702]

Scientology was given the status of a religion by the IRS years ago which gives them legal power and billions of dollars. They also have a policy which states they should never defend, but always attack anyone they see as an enemy.

[@easyalpha1]

Michael and Sarah are good close friends with Kristin Kreuk, I find it great and respectful they kept her name out of this mess. Sarah is one of Kristin’s most forceful defenders backing up Kristin’s public denouncement of NXIVM . Michael in Kristin’s last interview did not include this topic either. I am sure they will talk about it later though after the sentencing is done. So many famous people were caught off guard to what this self help program turned into.

[@finnbalor8021]

As much as some Qanon types like to think she was super deep into NXVIM she really wasnt. Yes she attended some courses locally and some public events and people will site her managerial level within the company (which seems pretty easy to get) but I think her being in demand for work in tv and film and then eventually breaking up with Mark Hilderth who brought her in meant she was never as into it or could be the star recruiter they were hoping

[@loolufun]

It's the truth she is a victim like the others she just left before sex cult and more seedy activity, even if she stayed I can't see her being like Mack or Raniere's groupies.. thank god Sarah didn't have to sleep with that creep. Also KK estrangement decade ago with A Mack says a lot

[@loolufun]

The highest she went was a coach and thousands were coaches too lol there's no there there!

[@LancerX916]

So years ago I was approached by a friend about joining a group that would teach me how to be a better person. She was a good friend and I cared about her so I went to the meeting. After a couple of times going, it turned out to be Amway. So of course the bells are ringing in my head about this. I brought up that isn't this a pyramid scheme to the recruiter and he told me to do some research and I would find out for myself who they are. Big mistake on his end. I am the type that will use google to just dig for info. So I knew it was pretty much a scam. But again I cared about my friend and she was gung ho to be in it, so I joined with her. I joined knowing I would spend as little amount as I could. I stung them along for like 6 months before I quit. Everything Sarah and the Vow have said and shown is almost exactly like Amway. The isolating you from friends and family, bugging you to bring more people in, the promise of making money (only 1-2% make over $900 a year.) Keith clearly studied the classic MLM business model.

[@adrianacortez9064]

Amway is a scary pyramid scheme cult

[@ZainR]

This really resonates with me because hearing some of what Sarah said reminds me of something that happened to me in October with Landmark Forum. It was a virtual meeting and a friend of mine actually invited me to it saying how I may like this because it's about mental health and I advocate for it. So I was like "Sure". I go into the Zoom meeting and there's almost 200 people in this and a few leaders or instructors or whoever. The one who's the main host is carrying the conversation and doing this presentation on what Landmark Forum does and for much of the time I was watching this, it was already unsettling to me just how much the host was smiling. It looked too forced and at the same time, they're trying REALLY hard to sell this idea that what they're doing with these "classes" is going to change your life, you'll be a happy person, you'll never have to go to therapy again. Then we go into assigned breakout rooms and I'm with my friend who also invited a couple of their family members and one other friend. And one of the instructors comes in not long after (I had tech issues so I couldn't speak in that moment) andI remembered this was when my friend was sharing how this place seemed to change his relationship with his dad for the better, so I was intrigued by this. I was under the assumption that over the next hour or two we were all going to learn some sort of mental health exercise that would make us reach some sort of epiphany with ourselves and we'd be so much better off. But we end up back in the main room and the host spends so much time talking about signing up for classes at prices like $500 Canadian dollars (I don't remember the other prices but it was still in the hundreds). That to me just felt off. You're this organization that's been selling this idea that you will provide an answer for us that will change our lives and you're asking for money? I'm one of those people that believes our health is essential and should be free and accessible including mental health. I was already not liking this idea but stayed in the meeting for my friend - until we went back in the breakout room. My tech issues were fixed up and the others were talking about whether or not to join. Some of us had reservations like the costs, being in school or therapy. The instructor came in and I was the first she targeted because I was talking at that moment. I just said it's cool what it's done for my friend and they asked what would be in it for me if I joined. Personally it would be not to internalize things when things are tough and they claimed their classes could solve that and asked if I was ready to join but I still felt too unsure because of how they were selling it and because of the money. I remember at this point they were trying to pressure me to join and I think I atleast told them money was the issue which they seemed like they were willing to adjust for me but then asked what else was holding me back. I didn't want to sound mean and we literally spent 2 minutes in silence as I tried to say this delicately that I couldn't believe what they were saying was true. So after 2 minutes of awkward silence (and my camera was on), the instructor says "How about I help you make up your mind so this can be easy for you to join" and THAT triggered it for me because I grew up with that shit and I said right there and then "Well if I'm going to do anything it has to be MY choice alone" and they backed off and talked to one of my friend's family members. I was kind of shaken having to stand up for myself like this because I generally try to be a kind person but that got to me. And one of the last things I remember in the breakout room was that the family member was being told by the instructor that for years this person went to therapy and they were never happy, basically there was this belief that therapy was supposed to promise you this weird blissful life Landmark Forum was promising. I was actually kind of offended by this because I've never believed therapy was about getting yourself "fixed". It was about working through your shit with healthy coping strategies so nobody (including yourself) can get hurt or negatively affected. Anyways, we end up back in the main room and by this point, after all these things, I was very uncomfortable by the experience and turned off my camera and microphone, took a moment alone to reassess and I felt this was just not right and whatever they're selling, I'm not buying. I'm happy for my friend and whatever they did for him but I'm turned off. And then I just turned off the Zoom meeting. By the time I was leaving, so had about 67 others. And I wondered what these guys were all about and I had a feeling Landmark Forum was a cult and I found several who'd left who had felt this way about it too. On top of it, from the things I had read about them and their groupthink behaviour, Sarah's story reminded me of this.

[@Tess-163]

I went to a weekend seminar too and then a follow up one where I could see people getting sucked in to line up and share their secrets at that moment I thought what a bunch of suckers they all seemed a little brainwashed even after only 3-4 days I can see how it happens now

[@crackers1039]

You should do a blog or podcast. This was told really well.

[@Tess-163]

Me too !!

[@illimattic]

Allison Mack needs to do an interview. Shes much a victim of Raniere than all these Nxivm people coming out telling their stories.

[@aguyinhisroom]

yeah I don't really see her as a victim if she's done the horrible things she's accused of. I can only give someone so much of a pass

[@alexandramcgoey3656]

Allison Mack is going to jail so she might do a jail interview.

[@kirstycoulthard]

Wow... What a fantastic episode so open and honest a real eye opener, keep up the good work Michael 😍 I love inside of you podcast can't wait to hear more episodes 💙💙💙

[@Beatetemporaryhermit]

Belated thanks for doing this. I was not aware that your really went into the issue until KZbin algorithm brought this to my attention yesterday. After I had come across SMALLVILLE in 2011, I virtually lived through all of it via Chloe, as I felt closest to her. Allison Mack was one of the first people I followed on social media. She kept posting about very personal stuff back then, like how she felt like as a child when her mother had cancer. She never answered to anyone back then - but neither did you, back then, and Tom shunned all social media, which, in a paradox way, caused me to join them in an attempt to sift the fake Toms and news from the real ones, at first via a fansite, which brought Twitter&co to my attention. When the cult stuff kept coming up, I was as incredulous and shocked as you were. So, thanks again to you and Sarah Edmonson for shining a courageous light on what was going on. May somebody save her and all her victims.

[@sarahm4809]

So glad I came back for this one!

[@mj369lucky7]

Thanks Sarah for sharing this with us!

[@kentwayne84]

Aside from the Smallville cast interviews, this episode is the best you have ever done! (One suggestion: You should add the #NXIVM tag to it, so it's easier to find for anyone who hasn't heard about "the Vow" yet.) Anyway, I'm currently rewatching all seasons of Smallville and with Allison on screen all the time it feels really weird. I hope she gets through all this and gets her sanity back.

[@loolufun]

Sanity? She was someone enjoying power to hurt people... she should be in prison for a long time.

[@franktaylor595]

Love the new posters 👌👍 I'm officially jealous. I'm going to love watching this one. I've been waiting on this subject to come up. Not my business but still glad you shared. ☮️☯️ And happy Tuesday!

[@isabellastambolis6484]

Wow. He the husband is very impressive. I might watch the vow just for his perspective

[@MrSuedaluvbug]

It’s so good!!!

[@Tess-163]

Best interview I’ve seen !! Good one Michael

[@KrisBryant99]

What is the point in sitting through boring crap like this? Like am I gaining? How is it impacting me? Like how do we know that Sarah isn't still a cult member brainwashing people? Like this is just the point in sitting through these talks? LOL

[@smoore8]

Love the podcast Rosebaum! Would be awesome to get Welling on. Wifey and I watched Urban Legends during quarantine.

[@adrianlopez8796]

He did twice go on spotify there pretty awesome

[@deboracopeland4795]

It wasn’t just his talk KR starved, worked them to the edge and deprived these women of sleep which really messes with peoples head. Not just mental but physical pressure. We would like to think not me but it could happen to many people. Smart, successful people.

[@mikeholihan5649]

Great interview.... followed The Vow documentary before i saw this interview... now I need to rewatch Five Star Christmas... loved the movie but missed her... glad she is acting again!!

[@annmarieknapp2480]

When Sarah said that Keith dismantled her and others' intuition to have them question their perceptions and reality sounds like gaslighting.

[@TvMovieSparks88]

So happy and proud you did this episode rosey

[@j.c.ca.o.l7035]

Thanks for the interview, great episode; Sarah is such a strong woman.

[@jedharrison7939]

I just binged the vow that dude was a master manipulator and its really sad to see what he did to those women and allison im a huge fan of the podcast much respect

[@spiggity8]

Absolutely Sarah is so strong & brave! 🙌🏻 But also, good on Nippy! So much anger and so much logical restraint! I'd have all the anger, but probably less restraint. Good job Nipp. Soild 💯

[@TvMovieSparks88]

I am obsessed of the vow I was afraid upon telling you about because of Allison

[@GothamKnight84661]

We don't speak of the woman. She's dead!