Inspiring Philosophy Gets Exposed

[@MythVisionPodcast]

What are your thoughts about the issues raised in this discussion?

[@dirkjensen969]

Dirk mocks his audience constantly, but he tolerates Dirk even when his mods go bonkers, to his credit. So he's capable of opposing views and a certain level of self depreciation. Dirk judges him as tolerant despite the intolerance of his mods and audience.

[@FlaviusBrosephus]

Apologists simply aren't interested in truth-seeking. You won't be able to change their mind, but at least you can critique their videos for the benefit of people who are interested in truth.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

I haven’t watched the whole thing but I gotta say I’m pretty disappointed. I do think that Michael was a bit uncharitable at times and he can just come off as a character in a little bit too smug, little bit like David Wood. But I gotta say I don’t think you guys were very fair here especially Gnostic informant, can you just came off as a little bit disingenuous especially Gnostic. The overwhelming majority of scholars reject the similarities not simply just Christians I mean we saw gnostic have his fall out with Dan McClellan who is now conservative evangelical Christian or apologist by any means. And Gnostic saying that Michael just found apologist who support his answers when he couldn’t find good scholars to support his conclusions. Just comes off as poisoning the world to me and it also ignores the fact that most of the scholars you guys have on overwhelmingly support your conclusions. And I think just in general when it comes to this topic you guys definitely lean more into your bias than you do when it comes to most other things, and it can be kind of difficult to take you seriously sometimes.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@FlaviusBrosephus OK so you think that Dan McClellan, Bart Ehrman, Mark Goodacre, Paula Fredrickson, Mark S Smith, Who are not evangelical conservative apologists by any stretch of the imagination, are all just trying to preserve some dogma they don’t hold too against the evidence? Come on. This is just a cheap shot.

[@_witchdoctor]

We've started the fire...the fire rises...

[@gustavlarsson7494]

My favorite Michael Jones quote: "...and they were called the Philistines, because they came from the land of the Philistines." Hilarious

[@davida.taylor8444]

I'm impressed with Neal's recall of all the classics, festivals, dates, reasons, stories, scholars. He's definitely put in the work.

[@planetpeterson2824]

Here's an example of how dishonest he is: Somebody made a video claiming Christianity, "Engaged in a campaign of cultural erasure." Insipid sophistry replied with, "Christians weren't going around rampantly burning books. In fact, in the time of Constantine, no book burnings occurred." I stitched that video pointed out how dishonest it is to point to the few decades of Constantine and gave several examples. He went on to explain that he was adding context and then lied about what the original person said. He's impossible to engage with because he lies and he knows he'll get away with it because his audience is incapable of thinking, they just want to be told "the truth," and according to them, only Michael can do that.

[@1234Xten]

I like him and even link his videos but with all these 2 hrs video coming out from RR and now Mythvision - That needs revaluating and caution moving on. Ah well.

[@whatwecalllife7034]

​@@1234XtenThe problem is that it's more difficult to dismantle misinformation than it is to spread it. With every response, misconceptions, misinformation, and misinterpretation has to be corrected in addition to anything new that was said. You can even notice this in YT comments or forums. Oftentimes this also results in having to do some meta commentary about the presentation and delivery, which unfortunately tends to have a greater influence on the minds of listeners than objective facts.

[@GnosticInformant]

Right. Shutting down temples, ending the Olympics, de-funding Academies, and outlawing "idolotry" isnt cultural erasure. He wins because he can cite Tim O'Neil and his Authoratative Bachelors Degree.

[@robertjimenez5984]

The first thing I learned in art school was to prepare a Idea File. A file that had images that will help me extract ideas for my art. This applies as well in stories writings. The writer needs ideas to develop their story. So it’s obvious that they will use what ever they knew in order to create the narrative of their literature. To determine what inspired the writer, all you need is to know is what did the writer had on hand in the time they were writing. In this case they had the Greek mythology stories. This is just how myth was created.

[@amateuroverlord8007]

Am I really expected not to giggle when I hear of people drinking the water of lake clitorus?

[@IheartDogs55]

Very interesting. I, too, love the Bible more now than I did when I was a Christian. My deconversion nearly a decade ago has unlocked a wealth of knowledge which has enriched me.

[@davida.taylor8444]

Yea, kind of same here, now that I realize how rich the world was that produced not just the Bible but also the myths, mystery religions, stories, etc. Growing up in the church, no one ever even knew these sources existed, much less where to go to read them and discover what was in them.

[@MrDalisclock]

There's a lot of fascinating shit in the Bible. As an atheist reading the Bible as literature I keep finding new shit all the time.

[@zilchnilton]

This IP guy has always come across as an arrogant bullshitter

[@tgshark1]

I'm one of a few that joins his livestream and shows the truth from their own bible, the contradictions and then clear evidence, especially these

[@VSM101]

@@tgshark1 true

Facts

[@geraldmeehan8942]

100%

[@KitKat4Christ]

Nope

[@chainedmindsasylum]

I appreciate what you guys do 🙏 I'm a former believer. I see most Christian apologists as liars because they are dishonest in defending their faith and their book.

[@GoldClaw7]

Thats the problem. The need all the miracles and defiance of science and physics to be true to believe even though there is no logical or real evidence to do so. So in order to make it real life they have to basically lie for its proof. Reality is, there isnt really a need because the whole premise of the religion is faith. If it could be logically and objectively proven to be true there would be know need for faith. So, the world would just be a better place if they acknowledged that religions dont need to be these thungs that objectively true but just philosophies that give us moral framework, srlf improvement. Thats all it needs to be

[@siecheil]

Hero of Alexandria invented a jug that he would use to pour drinks that would alternate between water and wine, as a party trick. It was popular among the elites of Alexandria, right before the gospels were written.

[@theemptycross1234]

Dionysus and Jesus are totally different: Dionysus converted water to Merlot, whereas Jesus converted it to Pinot Noir 🤣

[@p.i.6373]

Loooool hahaha 😂😂😂 Good one my friend

[@danyboon4851]

Except, you didn't watch the video, one converted, a->b , Dionysus just made one water taste like something, like to claim same thing, it at least needs to be same thing

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@danyboon4851 do you always ruin perfectly serviceable jokes? turning water into whine if you will.

[@danyboon4851]

@@HarryNicNicholas yours is a great joke by the way )) But hard to tell if OP's comment is a joke, or attempt to insinuate what I already responded to

[@MariaFairbanks-m9x]

Lmao!!!!! U funny!!!😂😂😂😂😂

[@JesusLied_ReadTheBible]

IP seems like an angry Christian not a real truth seeker. Jones’s dishonest apologetics gets called out and he can’t handle it. I love seeing false religions get called out!

[@pragmaticcrystal]

We Are MythVision‼️

[@archapmangcmg]

Yeah, Michael Jones is the Angry Atheist stereotype he loves to imagine. He's not inspiring and he's not honest.

[@Trotoloko]

As a rule of thumb, be skeptic of "philosophers", and always be suspicious with religious philosophers

[@KitKat4Christ]

He is very honest, plus he names his sources and even puts them on screen sometimes.

[@vadim666er]

The way Jones implies that it’s stupid to even think to ask questions and people should “shut up” is the aspect of Christian culture that helped start my personal search for the actual truth.

[@billmahon1213]

Me too, I've noticed KZbin is starting to push the Christian Reich.....very strange.

[@wraves693]

You took this "shut up" to heart, huh? Even so, this entire comment section focuses only on insults and mockery of Jones, his audience, apologists and Christians in general, were so offended by this insult, but have no problem offending Christians and their way of arguing, curious.

[@americaeaustraliaepius4338]

@@wraves693 And all well earned. He's dishonest as it gets

[@vadim666er]

@ jones does a good job of making a mockery of himself same goes for apologists and Christians in general

[@Nanology101]

I'm so glad to see Derek and Neil doing vids together on Greek myth, it's wonderful!

[@yonitree]

To make Dionysus a conman fixing the spring or fountain one must do the same for the Jesus.

[@Stolas1777]

Obviously Jesus wasn’t as much a conman as a magician for child’s parties. They’d conceal some strong wine (very common in the ancient world) and pop it at the bottom of the water vessel which would’ve been clay and not see through they’d pop it and the water turns to wine classic kids birthday trick my mom always did it every year so my friends and I would fall asleep early

[@yonitree]

@Stolas1777 there is no proof of a Jesus Christ anywhere .

[@Stolas1777]

@@yonitree lol I don’t need there to be I don’t believe in him. There obviously was a Jew named Joshua (Yeshua which was a very common name at the time) who was crucified that being said he certainly wasn’t a divine being and myths have been attached to someone’s story. Doesn’t matter either way to me though I don’t believe in him one way or the other

[@VSM101]

@@Stolas1777 Joshua never turned water into a whine. What is your evidence? You have 0 evidence. Your belief is not facts, and that is the problem.

[@MrDalisclock]

According to apologists, humans are not trustworthy unless we're talking about biblical authors writing shit they agree with. Then they can be trusted implicitly. Joseph Smith obviously a con man. Jesus, obviously not because special pleading. Non christian/Jewish writers talking about their religions were liars or delusional. Isaiah, Jeremiah, the gospel writers? Nope, gotta believe those guys are honest and accurate.... because reasons. no way those writers could have been duped or making shit up, apparently. Such a double standard with these guys.

[@FlaviusBrosephus]

1:01:50 The lengths he goes to avoid any possible connection between Jesus and Dionysus is truly astonishing... This is sheer faith-commitment dictating someone's cognition.

[@zombiedeathrays8862]

Banana I just timestamped the exact same time 😂. Ridiculous.

[@Ms.Interpretations]

Have you ever noticed when IP is put under pressure, OR is possibly lying, his voice cracks? It’s as if his body cannot lie

[@stever7613]

His voice cracks in regular conversation. Seems more like some kind of condition.

[@fellowgoyimwhite7630]

@@stever7613 yeah his voice doesnt match his face 🤣😂

[@UserName-mn5rx]

His voice cracks all the time. This is not a valid criticism

[@dimitris_zaha]

He has condition with his voice, don't make fun of it

[@calebrajasigamoni2091]

The great atheists making fun of a mad voice instead of his arguments

[@DeadSoon1945]

Finally, Inspiring Philosophy has been lying through his teeth for years. His take on Mithra in particular twists the claims so much that he could hang on the rope he makes. Alas, he is not unique and mostly just parrots the Christian apologists line.

[@danyboon4851]

Please enlghten me , what is in his take on mythra false?

[@bigdogalldayeveryday]

What scholars disagree with him?

[@Darisiabgal7573]

What I really love about Michael Jones is that he chose the ant-hill of the water to wine story in the Gospel of John, the 7 signs gospel layer, to die on. Michael Jones, Bro, this ain’t what the gospel of John is about. Read what Origen said about the gospel. If you want to hinge your entire faith on that story, then all I can say is that I await your deconversion.

[@resurrectionnerd]

According to Diodorus Siculus (1st century BCE), Isis raised Horus from the dead. "Furthermore, she discovered also the drug which gives immortality, by means of which she not only raised from the dead her son Horus, who had been the object of plots on the part of the Titans and had been found dead under the water, giving him his soul again, but also made him immortal." - Bibliotheca Historica 1.25.6 "The resurrection of Osiris is the closest analogy to the resurrection of Jesus, although Osiris remains in the netherworld - wherever it is located. Horus's resurrection is a clear analogy. The rebirth or resurrection of Dionysus also provides a fairly close analogy to the resurrection of Jesus...Just as the Greek of the LXX and NT has its place in the matrix of Classical Greek, so the resurrection of Christ can be placed in the matrix of the bodily resurrections of cult figures from the Mediterranean world." - John Granger Cook, Empty Tomb, Apotheosis, Resurrection, pg. 143.

[@rkeyology81]

IP is the personification of the Dunning Kruger effect. Overconfident, arrogant, rude, dismissive of opposing views. He doesn’t approach research from an objective standpoint. He infuriates me lol.

[@blotterdreams]

Don't let him infuriate you, he isn't even worth the mental energy to even be infuriated by. People like him are a dime a dozen - its EASY to be just like him, acting like an arrogant ape when someone disagrees or points out where you are wrong.

Thank you I thought I was the only one feeling that way about him.

[@cristopherq1935]

The dishonesty of Michael Jones is impressive...Wow.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

All apologist are limited to offering words. No god ever appears to support their hypothesis.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

I mean the scholarly community seems to support their hypothesis more than Derek’s more then Gnostics.

[@fellowgoyimwhite7630]

No matter what they will always excuse the old testaments god actions,thats enough to know how dishonest they are

[@chiefreficul9774]

​@pleaseenteraname1103 those are scholars that practice the religion. so of course they do. there's not a lot of secular, neutral scholars that care about this topic enough to write about it.

[@eponaalbion]

@@pleaseenteraname1103 Theyre forced to, its in their job description ;~)

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@eponaalbion I could say the same thing about counter apologists. Apologist such a broad were they refers to so many people, an apologist ranges anywhere from the apostle Paul himself to Saint Augustine, to Saint Aquinas all the way to people like Kent Hovid.

[@kamiboido]

Uninspiring dogmatism

[@Merrick]

Inspiring Psychopathy

[@thegreatgmantheguy]

Inspiring Excuses

[@restlesshaven]

Insipid Sophistry.

[@thepalegalilean]

Dogmatism = Whatever I don't like

[@13shadowwolf]

​@@thepalegalilean Christianity = Ongoing Self-Justification loop for any belief

[@fellowgoyimwhite7630]

IP is as much of a deceiving scoundrel than the "apostle" paul

[@Yossarian.]

AP? Apostate Prophet? I don't see anything wrong with AP apart from his choice of mythological believing christian buddy.

[@sergiolantigua5362]

You guys really know your stuff....I am an ex Christian who has become an independent researcher....one of my favorite subjects is "mythology "which should be called ancient religion...thank you for this great information...peace and blessings

[@DinoCurto]

Down pdf's from author Ashayana Deane. Voyagers, Angelic Realities and more.

[@DinoCurto]

A cosmological view from 900 billion years ago

[@Trotoloko]

Funny thing is that mythology ain't necessarily religion, just... lore. Not even folklore, just any lore is myth. And myth being synonymous with 'fiction' is a misconception that, "surprise": is Christian propaganda.

[@hailsagan8886]

Uninspiring philosophy

[@belialord]

Not philosophy, just apologetics. Jones is an offense for serious christian philosophers.

[@ftg3183]

Insipid Philosophy is more accurate😎😅

[@ancientflames]

Bold to call it philosophy

[@CranSauce4Ever]

Insipid sophistry

[@provocativecheesecake]

@@ancientflames More like failosophy

[@bobbywright3439]

I'm so glad to see you address this guy. I would like to see you have a discussion with Wess Huff. You and gnostic informant.

[@Trotoloko]

First time I ever listened to IP, it was in a debate with Aron Ra. It felt like if JP tried to disguise himself, and was constantly changing the subject, while Aron was constantly trying to make IP to focus again. That first time, I got suspicious of him. Then, the more I saw of him, the more clear it was he's a dishonest apologist, and nothing more.

[@Jack-i6y6p]

Ah yes the apologist who likes to think they're better than Everyone Thanks for exposing him.

[@wordwarrior1974]

I find this back-and-forth intriguing. I feel like Christians have, for far too long, taken their worldview for granted and expected everyone else to do the same. They expect they'll be given the benefit of the doubt since Christianity was politically and socially triumphant from the time of the Roman Empire on. Thus they've gotten smug and lazy and, frankly, can't take the heat that comes from having to legitimately defend themselves with a serious, scientific, critical method as opposed to doing sloppy apologetics.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

we are making laws based on an imaginary being. that is ridiculous.

[@blotterdreams]

Just the way Michael Jones acts is a huge turnoff, not only to his work personally, but to the religion he represents. He clearly isn't a person to take seriously.

[@13shadowwolf]

Go look up his "debates", especially with Daniel Hachicu (not sure how to spell the guys name) It's some of the most childish trash-talking nonsense outside of a high school basketball game.

[@therongjr]

IP is looking a bit rough!

[@roberthawes3093]

That opening rant...LOL. Apologists have almost nothing concrete. Virtually the entirety of their case rests on assumptions, church tradition, and arguments from authority, and they're really thin-skinned about it. I suppose that's understandable, though: their entire worldview is rooted in these texts. It was far from easy when all of that came crashing down for me as well.

[@Dr_Lipschitz]

To be fair they have the shroud of Turin which in my opinion probably wasn’t a fake. I don’t know how a 14th century counterfeiter would have known to include all the stuff only seen with a microscope etc

[@billmahon1213]

That's why they are called apolagist, crazy world.

[@stormburn1]

@@Dr_LipschitzStuff like...?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@Dr_Lipschitz the shroud is a joke, and why would you think it says anything about christianity - it shows a DEAD guy, we all know jesus is dead. the shroud is a fake when comes to christianity.

[@Trotoloko]

​​@@Dr_LipschitzSo, they have tourist traps. So what? So you fell for cheap con speaking. So what?

[@bardbarian4065]

I’ve learned a lot from IP….being corrected by Dr Kipp et al.

[@yahuhallah1259]

Does anyone take IP seriously these days? 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Stolas1777]

He’s really a weirdo and is not nearly as convincing as he thinks he is unless you’re already a believing Christian

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

@@Stolas1777 I mean Michael can be a character at times not as much as David Wood but he can. Yeah I completely disagree. And I don’t think the same thing about Derek either even though I’m a Christian I enjoy watching his channel, and I wasn’t even a believer when I started following his channel, because I was pretty much just indifferent to most apologetic channels to that point and Michael’s was one of the first I found that I really enjoyed. But I do think sometimes that Derek can be uncharitable and he can come off as a little bit disingenuous especially with his video titles, but I get it’s for the algorithm and to cater to his audience, but it just comes off as tribal. And especially when it comes to this pagan info and stuff I think this is where he really just kind of leads into his biases more. And with him and Gnostic informant claim things and try to make it look like it’s Christians trying to undermine these supposed similarities. I just find incredibly disingenuous because the overwhelming of scholars of all backgrounds reject these similarities. Especially Gnostic informant and especially his exchange with Dan McClellan. Who is no conservative evangelical Christian by any means.

[@JesusLied_ReadTheBible]

So many people are waking up to his dishonest apologies!

[@Stolas1777]

@ I agree I’m no huge fan of Derek or Neil especially Neil but inspiring philosophy and Neil I think are especially bad faith actors whereas I feel like Derek just lets his own bias’ creep in because Neil and Derek are pseudo intellectuals playing in an academic field without any academic training. That being said nowadays most academics act the same the days of unbiased media are dead. I’m an Orthodox Jew no one’s religion is more crapped on by these guys than mine I barely watch their content anymore this one just popped up and I clicked because a year or so ago when I watched more I remember inspiring philosophy on their channels and never really cared for him. I actually really like David wood but that’s because of his anti Islam work I’ll be honest that’s my bias showing. We all are biased it’s inherent and it goes against our nature to not be. We just have to exercise discernment to see where it creeps in when forming our outlook

[@cruzefrank]

Yes unfortunately too many

[@MuftiMasala]

IP, david wood and AP are clowns 🤡

[@Yossarian.]

What's wrong with AP?

[@MuftiMasala]

@Yossarian. everything

[@Yossarian.]

@@MuftiMasala What in particular? Is it because he's an apostate?

[@Yossarian.]

@@MuftiMasala I've been reading some of your comments. Seems you are an ex Muslim just like AP. Why do you dislike him?

[@kronos01ful]

How ? Why you are not one ?

[@ScholarVisual]

I am a bible believer. Full blown theist. But at some point you have to keep your bias in check. IP will correctly point out textual issues in the Quran. But when it comes to the bible, he does not have the same journalistic methodology. That kind of turns me off

[@breadsg]

“Bible believer” defending the Quran lmao

[@ScholarVisual]

@@breadsg I defend consistency

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@ScholarVisual like how doughy the books are?

[@NoneedtoID]

That guy has the personality of his face. SOUR he comes off as super egotistical & full oh himself he ignores evidence he doesn’t agree with dismisses sources and twists people’s words

[@baran1170]

Sorry derek but you were so friendly towards such people those who have agendas.

[@mithilbhoras5951]

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matthew 5:44 😂

[@megaspit]

This channel also has an agenda of getting people to leave Christianity. Anyone in this sphere has an agenda. Christians, Muslims, atheists... Even when it comes to atheists you have mythicists and non mythicists. Everyone has a point they're pushing and hopes to turn people to their side. That alone doesn't mean someone is good or bad.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Not really dude😂. They were actually pretty smug at certain points. Oh and Derek doesn’t also have an agenda that he’s trying to push? 😂 Derek himself doesn’t even claim that come on.

[@lost_is_history8224]

Jones as usual, when it's not laymen, gets debunked.

[@Philibuster92]

I exposed him years ago in the comments section of one of his videos where we conversed back and forth for many paragraphs. But he just ignored me after I started making too much sense to him. I agree with Neal’s analysis that he’s dishonest with his apologetics.

[@Miracles5512]

Who is bro 😂

[@dimitris_zaha]

Yeah sure buddy whatever helps you sleep at night

[@Philibuster92]

@ I have the conversation copied to a word document I could show anyone. I’ve also never had problems sleeping.

[@dimitris_zaha]

@Philibuster92 stick around for tomorrow's livestream then where IP will respond and then we'll see who is really the dishonest one here

[@Philibuster92]

@ he won’t remember me but I have the transcript. I can copy and paste it in these comments if you want to read it.

[@jdmac44]

I can't believe the way people who call themselves Christian talk to people they disagree with, I wouldn't have listened to people like this when I was a believer, what is the fruit he's bearing? How does his spirit reflect Christ? The quality of witness, demonstrating Christ as a person, is far, far more important than being "right" in an argument, if you're not going to win hearts for Christ, it's pointless. Of course, this is just another level of hypocrisy that I came to see on my way out and there's so much that the internet/social media has exposed me to as to how diverse the Church is and not in good ways. Sheesh.

[@thepeopleslibrary8673]

Thank you. Many years ago I remember feeling dread at the existence of his channel. In the 21st century we have people who are all set to just lie to the public about history and religious studies.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i went to a UK state comprehensive school in the 70's, all state schools in the UK are christian, we had christian assembly every morning, with prayers and hymns, we had christian religious studies two hours a week, and i've been atheist all my 70 years. it doesn't always work, the brainwashing.

[@socratichero6612]

Yall are who Billy Carson thinks he is 😂😂😂 call Carson out, he sues, someone calls yall out and yall explain in detail why theyre wrong 😂 props to you guy's, i love listening in on the scholarship, using the direct, primary sources

[@NathanD.-yo8zg]

IP is like a more cringe, more dishonest version of William Lane Craig

[@Trotoloko]

Woah, and that's lowering the bar!

[@JCW7100]

Low bar Bill

[@tonijoncevski8607]

Michael is a fundamentalist who believes that if the Bible says it, then it really happened. Quoting theological-liberal scholars like Crossan means nothing to Michael. Michael and his kind of Christians dismiss Crossan as an apostate unbeliever. Michael will accept no argument that brings any level of mythology to the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. I know this personally because I was a conservative and "fundamentalist" Presbyterian (Reformed PCA kind, not PCUSA type). You cannot argue with Michael. Jesus is unique, Jesus is special and any likeness to older myths, the conservative "Bible--types" cannot be accepted and will argue in circles forever. You have to come to see what the Bible is and is not before you can even think about this "stuff." And Michael is not there, not at all.

[@mdm123196]

I knew a long time ago IP was dishonest. I'm not surprised at all he shops around for scholars when he doesn't get the answer he wants

[@EclecticOmnivore]

Yep. It's so disappointing. I make mistakes constantly. I try to -- as Penn Jillette intended (not quote!) -- admit my mistakes and then move on. If I was wrong, and I know it, then there's no reason to cling to my error. Better to nod and suck it up. That isn't what Penn intended, but I doubt he would think it it is way off of what he was thinking. Corrections appreciated!

[@Monedgar123]

I’d say I don’t care what Jones or his followers believe, except that their insistence that they are correct despite the lack of evidence that they then can tell me and my family how to live. Fuck that.

[@castlesandcuriosities]

It's looking like a good idea to keep the pressure on IP here. Clearly he can't handle the criticism, and has no understanding of how long it takes to clear up bullshit.

[@jimhamilton7773]

I've tried to approach spirituality, religion and the claims of Christianity with an open mind. That's why I love your guy's youtube channels! When I was going to a Lutheran church-- they professed such things as the inerrancy of scripture, and they recited the historical creeds, and were ardent believers in a literal virgin birth, death of God and a physical resurrection. They also required the acceptance of the "Augsburg confession" and everything that was collected together in Luther's writings in the "Book of Concord". Which I thought was extreme, as most congregants were not even familiar with the writings, and far fewer actually read it. However, they did have a concept called "audiaphora" , which basically means if its not explicitly commanded or forbidden in scripture, it does not matter what you believe. The odd thing about that position, is it allowed for more openness than less. Anyway, I love the liturgical tradition, and the congregational participation in the service, and remember it fondly. I mss it. I am under the belief the liturgy was carrying forward a much more ancient tradition-- including the Eucharist. Evangelical apologists such as these yahoos really do the world a disservice. They are completely naive to the faith practices of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions-- which make up the majority of Christians worldwide. A simple example, many Lutherans (who follow the same traditions) would not even put up a tree until Christmas Eve. For them, the "Christmas Season" was between Dec 25 and Jan 6. Hence the 12 days-- the Journey of Christmastide, concluding with Epiphany celebrating the manifestation of Christ as God. I really don't understand why any Christian needs to insist that the wedding feast miracle of water to wine has to be unique to Christ. It makes sense to me that is would be used as a evidence to show Christ's divine nature. That's the point of much of the writing in the gospels. These "apologists" are confusing their own sheep. The story seems to only legitimize the religion-- as it emerged from the existing thoughts on god like characteristics and myth narratives from the past. Anyway...my thoughts!

[@andreasplosky8516]

Michael Jones is not an authority. He is a theistic fantasist. Other Theistic fantasists are his targeted audience. Jones is an excellent example of what apologists are: Liars.

[@wraves693]

No problem calling them fanatics and liars, but when you hear an "shut up" you think they've crossed the line, interesting.

[@Amor-Fati.]

You should open up with " having my entire Christian worldview upended, was the most difficult thing ive had to go thru, but truth is truth!"

[@MikeOcksmol]

502 likes and no dislikes. We love your content bro

[@ryanfristik5683]

Apologist ip, he should just say "i apologize the bible is a complete shit show."

[@jodown5584]

You guys are doing such great work. Don't stop fighting for the truth. You'll always have Athena fighting with you when you're fighting for the truth.

[@mrmaat]

Derek kind of sounds like Charlie Day when he’s really animated. It’s really endearing how excited these nerds get.

[@CranSauce4Ever]

Apologists ≠ Philosophers

[@Mayeverycreaturefindhappiness]

Eminem doesn't sound like dr.dre so they must have not inspired each other at all. He just doesn't want to see it

[@gunkwretch3697]

yes Eminem is white, so obviously no black rappers would respect him, their cultures are totally isolated right!!!?

[@Trotoloko]

Vanilla Ice, also allegedly never listened to Queen nor David Bowie 😂

[@LesActive]

Uninspiring Sophistry.

[@vivahernando1]

😂😂 …… nailed it

[@vigilance3109]

IP is insufferable to listen to but a Derek and Neal video never gets a skip.

[@Yourghostuncle]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck, but it is in fact… not a duck.

[@helaughs]

22:53 I wouldn't want this to come off as some kind of "generalization," but the only people who ever say "correlation does not equal causation" are people who are actually saying "you have just proved a correlation and therefore it CANNOT also equal a causation because then I'd have to acknowledge said correlation." So silly you almost got to feel pity instead of just calling it what it is: dishonest stupidity.

[@modernatheism]

If I was a christian apologist I would be like "this is totally water into wine because there was probably some remaining water inside the fountain pipes which first transformed into wine and then came out". This is the kind of logic they use to harmonize contradictions.

[@dokwannabe]

The comments here are far more respectful than those on IP's response video. Over there it's mostly snide and snarky bashing on Derrick. Good indication of the heart behind either movement.

[@solomonessix6909]

Jesus was never dismembered, but they did divide up his clothing. But I wonder if the trope was altered and applied to the clothing of the demigod instead of the person for the sake of the story.

[@decades5643]

It's interesting that during the last supper he says "this is my body broken for you" and then divides the bread. Bread also represented the body of Osiris.

[@hueym2196]

Be sure to have the Sumerian. Inanna (8000-1400bce) is hung on a hook in Akkadian however it is translated to root. She is hung upside down on a root of a tree. This is the symbol for contemplation. Another aspect she is struck on the head which kills her. Compare it with Jesus. Struck in the side with a spear hanging on a wooden cross. Krishna (500bce) is closer to that. Hit in the side with an arrow while being tight to a tree. This stage is contemplation from the Eight to the Nine. Able to to create heaven. Inanna goes from the Great Below to the Below to her Garden eventually. Krishna eventually goes to Nirvana. Jesus eventually goes to heaven. Another coincidence... PS. Inanna~Ishtar~Asherah~Hera~Aphrodite~Artemis~Auset (Isis)~Freya~Frigg~Kali~etc. All the same teaching in esoteric teachings.

[@hueym2196]

I can explain the 25th of where it came from. Haven't seen that here yet.

[@Trotoloko]

Evidence that Innana got imported beyond the Mediterranean Europe and it doesn't come from already pre-existing proto-indo-european cultures? Do you have the same evidence regarding Innana being Isis, considering thar Egyptian culture is as old as the Summerian?

[@hueym2196]

@@Trotoloko The thing is that if people actually start to write out the names one can see the concepts. Auset, Inanna, Kore, Hera, Freya etc mean 'The Lady', they in general have the title of Queen of Heaven. They also have symbols attributed to them. Like either a stick or a chair. This resembles the kingpin between the material and the spiritual world taken from the tree of knoweldge/wisdom. The philosophy goes back far allot. The problem is that people desire written accounts. Even if they see it they still do not want to accept some facts. take the works of Plato. He describes it with the Demiurge. Pythagoras described it with his pythagorian numbers (One to Nine). The Book of Going Forth by Day of Ani translated by Budge explains the mythology. That mythology is the demiurge and the numbers. To condense it. Mythology(Creation Myth Myhtology)=philosophy=symbolism. Science has got a hypothesis

[@hueym2196]

@@Trotoloko After the video read the Book Serpent in the Sky by John Antonie West. This man explains the findings of the texts of tombs and temples relating to the numbers One to Nine the same Pythagoras used. The following step: One is the mind at rest. Two is the primary thoughts. Three is creating unity of an idea. Four is finalizing the thought as a plan in the mind. Five is the mind transferring into action (Pyramid/Cross/etc). Six is the exposing of the continuation of the plan in action. Seven is the balancing of the morals of the plan. Eight is the accumulation of all the in and outs of the actions taken and processing it. Nine is the rinse and repeat so to speak creating heaven on Earth. This philosophy one can be projected on all astro-theologies from Christianity to Inanna. Thus the philosophy was in the stone age cultural adapted per region per people however after the bronze age collapse it started to lead lives of their own. Some cultures started to mix deities form other cultures with their own and duplicating concepts resulting in elaborating the philosophies. But back to basics: One to Nine!

[@-TheInfamousOne-]

PLEASE DO MORE OF A PODCAST WITH YOU 2!!

[@Mayeverycreaturefindhappiness]

Imagine if the gospel writers watch this like why are the atheists giving us more literature respect than the Christians

[@Joqub]

If he's right, why does he need to act like he's above everyone? That's a symptom of being ignorant.

[@ts8960]

Archaya (now dead) actually made some very good refutations to counter-arguments of zeitgeist. She said many of the sources she had available to her team were not yet translated to english and are not available in english encyclopedias.

[@trocknorat]

I loved Zeitgeist. Was it perfect? No. Was it an amazingly insightful video? Yes. It opened my mind to a world of possibility

[@MrDalisclock]

NGL, listening to Micheal Jones whine like a little child is hilarious.

[@snaptrap5558]

I don't think I've heard anyone cope as hard as IP in this video

[@Petticca]

@33:00 Gotta pause here just to say how much I'm enjoying the nerds, nerding out so enthusiastically. Both of you guys have spent so much time over the past few years, digging down, reading more, really trying to understand the context of everything, constantly evolving your ideas as you learned more... And it's a delight to be a spectator to this conversation. There is something to be said for listening to someone when they're passionate about the topic. Thank you, guys. Alrighty now I can get back to the video.

[@tk-yp2cr]

Keep giving him the business fellas, he’s losing his religion

[@everyzan-m2q]

IP just destroyed you.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

lol. dreams are made of this.

[@acesius393]

how is responding to a blatant water to wine miracle by claiming it isn't water to wine in anyway destroying him?

[@Dnpnts]

​@acesius393 Jones is right. Your supposed water to wine miracle was performed by medieval English royalty at a bigger scale. Do you think they had the power to turn water to wine also? Neal tried mocking "hurr durr you can't pump wine into a fountain." Yet it's recorded in history before pumps were invented.

[@thomasbeninger4753]

It's funny a dead body being hung on a hook isn't Crucifixion, because in the Germanic myth Odin hangs on a tree, and Christian missionaries told the Germans that this was the same as Crucifixion! Guess Christians will have it any way they want depending on what audience they are talking to.

[@DontBeCringe]

same thing paul did..

[@karendunn8055]

You both blow my mind!! Good job!

[@MrDalisclock]

Can we get Jones on the show to hash this out? He's debated Matt Dillahunty. He's allegedly okay with actually discussing stuff in person and Matt has no Mercy when he's riled.

[@rickypalacios1554]

I just noticed Rationality Rules also as an IP response video on his channel.

[@ttff-bd2yf]

Mike: he needs to show the stories about Jesus are legendary. What? So when Jesus raises someone from the dead, or god uses a magic spirit to impregnate a woman Derek has to show those stories are legendary? Since Mike is all about philosophy what is more likely. A. The creator of the universe assumed a human form via a virgin birth. Then did a bunch of miracles then was killed. Then came back from the dead. Later his followers recorded these events as they occurred in history. B. These are stories made up using other stories. If B is not more likely why is Jesus performing a healing miracle true, and Vespasian healing a blind man not? Why is Zeus impregnating Alexander's mother with a lightning bolt not true, but Jesus's mother being impregnated by a spirit true? There needs to be a meta point made here that Mike Jones is a grown man who believes in Harry Potter level magic. It's blatant obvious nonsense. He is a billy Carson level crank.

[@Camerinus]

At about 15:29 "The primary sources don't lie" - Well, I don't think it's the way to look at it. Ancient literary sources are mostly written by the educated elites who were highly trained in rhetoric, i.e. the art of persuasion. In order to persuade, you have to put your spin on the truth - or what you think is the truth. Much of this spin amounts to lies because the final product is far from the truth of "what really happened". Take for example Tacitus, _Annals_ 4.62-63. Tacitus claims that 50,000 were killed or injured in the collapse of the temporary wooden amphitheatre at Fidenae, a small town on the edge of Rome (now a suburb of Rome). That number is ludicrously too high for any wooden amphitheatre - this is the equivalent of a very large town! But Tacitus, as always, has an ultimate objective: to make Emperor Tiberius look as bad as possible. Tiberius did not offer games to the Romans, so someone built a makeshift structure just outside Rome to offer gladiators. So, much of the blame goes to Tiberius for being stingy. The description of the collapse is entirely literary and uses _topoi_ that Tacitus borrowed from the descriptions of the capture of cities under siege. Altogether, it's likely that a temporary wooden amphitheatre was built in Fidenae and that it (partly) collapsed, but one cannot trust anything about the magnitude of the event. The same is true with the Gospels which try to persuade you of Jesus's greatness by all possible literary devices. The ultimate goal is to persuade the reader or listener, not to lie to them, but the result amounts to mostly a chain of falsehoods, or if you prefer: "lies"... EDIT - But I should add I'm with you otherwise. Michael Jones has no idea what scholarship is.

[@whatwecalllife7034]

How is deliberate telling of falsehoods not equivalent to lying?

[@SnakeWasRight]

The dude literally can't even PRONOUNCE Dionysus. Has he ever even read the word???? Very doubtful.

[@FlaviusBrosephus]

23:03 lol the New Testament DOES quote the Bacchae... Read Acts 26:14. You also know the author has the Bacchae in mind because Paul's conversion is clearly informed by the character, Pentheus.

[@Stolas1777]

Of course the New Testament is entirely based off of Greek antecedents it’s so intellectually dishonest to say anything else. These were religious texts written in Hellenistic society by Hellenistic people who would’ve been surrounded by this stuff. Only someone as dishonest (not necessarily in bad faith) could never admit this because then it takes away the divinely inspired connotation of the NT. It’s obviously a greekified Judaism dying rising for cult one of many cults at the time. Modern day Christian’s can’t accept this because they think their religion is something unique and special

[@annikafrolander7903]

Thanks! Love you guys!❤

[@denniszaychik8625]

The opening is just pure cringe. Really Inspiring Philosophy?! Really?!

[@Trotoloko]

It didn't surprise me at all, frankly

[@denniszaychik8625]

@@Trotoloko I mean it didn't surprise me either, but still the pathetic childness of that moment was pretty off-putting to say the least.

[@brandonboulton2776]

C'mon man, one's called Jesus, one's called Dionysus. Totally different. Other than everything correlating like a familiar puzzle, totally different.

[@georgesparks7833]

I thought the turning water into wine by Dionysus was well known. And this is the basis of jesus's miracle. I wish they both turn water into wine. Especially if I was at that party.😮

[@jamesgrosrenaudjr812]

Ip tries to disprove Dionysus while trying to make people believe what his God does is different and real with very similar stories

[@KennyBare]

You know, I’m a Christian. I’ll be flat out honest about that. But as I Christian, I understand that Christianity came from a totally Hellenized world with literary motifs that echos that of the classics. What I like about Christianity is that the gospels make these ideas from the Greeks accessible to people for thousands of years to come. I wish defenders of Christianity would have room in their world view for pluralism because I certainly do.

[@IbnElKhattab]

totally agree with you brother and love your honesty ❤

[@BrghtScorpio]

I appreciate that view, mate.

[@Trotoloko]

It's actually the contrary: Christians hellenized her already hellenistic jew cult to make more people get proselitized, specially gentiles, who where hellenized people that were interested in jewish theology, but didn't want to convert due to how harsh the laws were, including circumcision.

[@mythosboy]

IP not serious? Say it isn't so... Not sure if I can make it through 3+ hours of what seemed pretty straightforward previously. I appreciate your efforts none the less.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. 🤔 Walked away from all of this arguing 50 years ago. 🤔

[@Gabe-lj9fo]

IP tried exposing Billy Carson now he getting exposed!!

[@iMrAsono]

Billy Carson deserves to get exposed, bro doesn’t know what he’s talking about half the time

[@Stolas1777]

lol Billy and IP can both be wrong those things aren’t mutually exclusive. Billy is an absolute bafoon and his reaction shows how full of it he is he is scared of losing his ticket on the gravy train now that he’s been exposed as an absolute fraud

[@Gabe-lj9fo]

@ Okay so what about the other half? It's okay to disagree but I don't find his claims or graham Hancocks claims at all incoherent

[@iMrAsono]

@@Gabe-lj9fo half is being generous tbh. You have to take his claims and points case by case and there hasn’t been a single thing I’ve agreed with Billy on so far

[@sickfool40]

Eventually, Derek, Neal you are going to tire of engaging in debates. Its pointless. Doesnt, matter if your right or wrong. Your channels are about a curiosity with the evolution of religion, religious writings, history, myth, different societies. "Believers" choose to believe in something, cause they want to be certain about life and death. This is a way to cope with the, fear and uncertainty of our existence on earth and the dread of death. Its a way to avoid the possibility/reality, that we just cant know certain things, and we have so little control over anything. The curious, the ones who watch and wonder, you contemplate. Maybe you start looking inward? You see that, this life is your experience. You guys have opened yourselves up to experiencing the fear of not knowing and being honest with youself. Believers are motivated to convince themselves, by convincing others, the ultimate truth is theirs. If they cant convince you, you must be considered the enemy, and there is a punishment for you. To get to the point of view, you guys found yourselves, the curious, and the admittedly uncertain, you had to get there purely on your own. Simply be asking yourself the questions, you needed to ask yourself. It seems to me, engaging with apologists pulls you into their: right/wrong view. You cant be scholarly with apologists , when you are dealing with highly emotional matters. Keep it fun. Dont be pickin fights, with the Mennonites! lol

[@colbymay6044]

So Nathan, if it isn’t water turning into wine, what is it turning into what?

[@blumoon131]

It's really disappointing that my brother is so into IP and Mike Winger and these other morons... Especially because he's so confident about his beliefs.

[@omnikevlar2338]

It’s frustrating! I have a friend fully into Mike winger. And all I ask is to look into the sources. And he doesn’t. He takes the drug of Christianity and I get it. It’s a hell of a high.

[@alexmartin1253]

​@omnikevlar2338 ....Understand that Is how you see things. In a way we are just as confused why you would choose the path you choose. I'm just bringing up that there are two sides to the story. Not one.

[@omnikevlar2338]

@@alexmartin1253 Oh for sure I don’t deny there are nonresistant believers out there that will weigh the evidence different than me. To those I respectfully agree to disagree cause I recognize we are doing our best to get to truth. But if you want to know why I’m not convinced of Christianity. The simplest way to put it is Christianity hasn’t met its burden of proof. Now if you want me to elaborate we would have to get on a call and it would take anywhere from maybe 3-10 hours to explain it all lol. So I’d forgive you if you don’t want to take the time. Prayers are appreciated all the best to you. 🙂

[@magepunk2376]

Apologists don’t care about truth. They already have their conclusions. The evidence is just an inconvenience to explain away.

[@RobertSmith-gx3mi]

He's not as convincing to me as the pope is and the pope is totally unconvincing to me.