Installing and alignment of the subframe 1968 Firebird restoration the easy way at home

Installing the assembled front subframe on a 1968 Firebird the easy way at home and how to properly align without specialized tools, actually just a couple 7/16 sockets and it will be spot on.
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Jon Forehan VVG
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Indianapolis IN 46241
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#Pontiac #Firebird #restoration

[@cabininthewoods7326]

Has anyone ever told you you sound like Jeff Dunham the ventriloquist. Couldnt help notice this while you talk! Love the channel, been a big fan of the birds since a kid in '70's.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I haven’t yet but that’s cool with me. I actually saw him live a few years back.

[@user-ic4hn3qx7r]

I watch VVG vids on the '69 Mockingbird. I was searching for a good sub frame installation/alignment vid. Funny, but this is exactly how I've done 3 previous sub frame installs, using a 1/4" drive 7/16" deep well socket, just by happenstance, in looking for something to use in place of alignment pins. I initially used two tapered heel bars to move the sub frame into place then 'gauging' with the 7/16" deep well. Great Minds??

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I agree! the factory used these holes but with a jig so it would have had less “ wiggle “ room but that is why we center it best we can. it hasn’t failed me yet and I have done several this way.

[@user-ic4hn3qx7r]

@@VinylVillageGarage A few years ago, I bought the gauge pins. I used them after I discovered the 7/16" deep well fit the gauge holes nicely, thinking they'd be an even better fit & easier to hold on to. Big size difference; gauge pins are 0.617" as compared to my Craftsman 6pt 7/16" deep well at 0.621". THX for another great super-focused vid!

[@jimsteig9653]

Another great video. Socket trick is an excellent tip.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Love or hate it I really like it and works great so far.

[@burntclutches]

I love it when I realize that I have to move parts because they're in the wrong spot - someone played a trick on you lol! Great job as always John.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I guess i played a trick on myself, I laid the bushings out like 3 weeks ago and somehow I assumed I got them right then and just went for it. The entire time I knew better. Easy fix. 🤦‍♂️

[@georgesabol459]

@@VinylVillageGarage Hello to you, do you do work for other folks, or just for yourself. I need a driver's side front floor board section & the seat platform fixed. If you can help me out let me know. Thanks. There is nobody in the State I reside in that even bothers with this stuff. Thanks, George

[@VinylVillageGarage]

The 68 bird you see here is not mine. I dream of the day that all I did was what you are looking to get done. At this point my garage and neighbors probably would not like it much. I am in the process of looking for property that will support this idea of building cars for a living. Where are you located

[@georgesabol459]

@@VinylVillageGarage Thanks, for answering back. I'm moving to N.C. soon. I'm serious about not having anywhere to go around here. Having said that, I would consider talking to you about sheetmetal work with you. Let me know how you prefer to interface. I have a friend in West Virginia. I'll be traveling through there. What county are you in? I'm going to Goldsboro N.C. You seem to be a methadocical worker, something that is in short supply today. Thanks for now George.

[@jeffclark3924]

Been doing restorations on GM muscle cars for years. The Fisher body manual has the measurements for aligning the subframe to body. Really enjoy the content.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I won’t say not to check it! i have the same book loads of great info.

[@ercost60]

Amazing process!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks it has worked great for me on several builds. Especially when doing most of the work solo.

[@hsimp316]

I am getting close to this step. My 67 is on a rotisserie. Great video...

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Nice! rotisserie, sounds like you are doing it up right.

[@hsimp316]

I am trying, but also very novice

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Slow and steady wins this race and keep it fun. Fortunately these cars are forgiving as for precision so don’t worry to much about being “perfect” Body panel fitment wasn’t stellar from the factory. That’s doesn’t mean you can’t make it better or nice just know it might never be perfect

[@perrywe1]

I like the VVG way Jon. lol. Those bushings are very confusing. I made the same mistake despite having an assembly manuel. Great work!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks buddy. I can’t believe I did that. 🤦‍♂️ I know how it happen just not sure why I let I happen. Easy fix and not the end of the world proves we are only human after all.

[@justindennis1186]

Great video as always. Love the details, they are going to come in handy with my bird.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

That is great! Just don’t mix up the subframe bushings like I did. I guess I am allowed one mistake….😉

[@davidbrown-55]

Good stuff, along with Mountain Dew. Man it goes down smooooth!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

it’s good stuff. And a bit addictive lol.

[@shoe2241]

thanks for posting !!! i am doing a restoration also !!!!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Very welcome! What Year is your car?

[@lewisedward9799]

The holes are called "Body Zero", I have never had an issue aligning a subframe this way as long as the brackets are straight and the frame has never been in a collision.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I agree 100%!!

[@thehillbillyhoarder4996]

Very nice video. Thank you for sharing with us

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thank you too

[@wadedavis7449]

John what brand body mounts did you use and have you had any experience with the ENERGY SUSPENSION brand that so many people are using these days? Thanks!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

They are rubber factory replacement I got from AMES. I did use the urethane energy suspension ones on my 1969 bird. I got the black ones and very happy with the fitment. I have yet to drive the car to to say weather they ride, harsh or not.

[@tomwilliams-norwoodta5579]

Another great video Jon! It was great talking to you at the TA Nationals. I know we talked about bringing my 76 up but I wasn’t able to make that happen. Maybe in the spring. Keep up the great work and I’ll talk to you soon. Save them ‘birds!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks buddy. Hoping to make it back to the nats next year.

[@kenstrain4366]

Great job as always.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks, making nice progress hoping to have the car back on the ground soon so I can start panel alignment and body work.

[@GTOFERN]

I love your content! I wish you played with 2nd gen birds but a lot of tech applies to both. Thanks man, great work

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Appreciate that! After the great pumpkin I am hoping to do any of the four generations. I have done all lot with all of them over the years. I am partial to 1969 just because it was my first Firebird but I have owned all four of the generations and hope to include them all on KZbin

[@donnymoore9804]

Great work. Love the videos.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Appreciate that, this had been a adventure and learning experience for me as well

[@curtisblake2223]

Thanks so much for all your awesome videos. Im restoring a 67, and to say it was rotten would be an understatement. So bad in some spots that i have difficulties getting reference measurements when removing old panels to re-install new ones. I am replacing both firewall body mount boxes, and i was wondering if there is any chance you would have the measurements between the alignment holes on one of your cars? Im trying my best to weld them into the same position as the old ones but they were so rotten that i had a hard time getting any specs from them. Either way, thanks for all of your videos

[@VinylVillageGarage]

The car I am working on now the measurement is 43 5/8” from inside edge of alignment hole to inside edge. Most measurements in spec books are from the center of hole to center but the passenger side hole is not a circle It more like an oval. So that is why I want to stress inside edge to inside edge. I hope this helps!

[@firstgenerationgarage2803]

Fantastic job my brother

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Hey I am trying to catch up To you, not an Easy task. Lol

[@firstgenerationgarage2803]

@@VinylVillageGarage you can buddy just don't sleep 😴

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Lol. Don’t put crazy ideas in my head

[@davidbisnette7673]

Great video, great info on how to do!

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks buddy. Hoping to have this car back on the ground very soon. Getting closer

[@davidbisnette7673]

@@VinylVillageGarage looks like real soon

[@jameshamley5056]

Love the video what size rims and tires and where did you get them

[@VinylVillageGarage]

The rims at 17” produced by year one, you get them from several places now. They will set you back about $1,000 with centers and lugs which isn’t all that bad considering what other rims cost.

[@GoGoGarage]

It must be a tad harder to install the sub frame with the engine and trans on it.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I am think it’s easier, less chance of scratching the firewall it rolls right into place for the most part. Once you find wheels that fit that is.

[@dudeabidestoo]

I have a question, why would you do this with the engine and transmission on the subframe? I was thinking I would do all this and then just swing the drive train in through the front of the car after the subframe was in.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Because I assemble it all and run it as to test for leaks or issues. It is much easier to repair things like trans lines or even just pull the transmission if needed. It’s a great engine break in and test run stand. All systems, power steering and coolant system is all hooked up and tested too. Lastly the engine drops right in with no issues like scratching the firewall. This works for me, definitely more than one way to get the job done. All have pros and cons so do whatever works for you.

[@WireWeHere]

Subframe bushings may add some issues with your door and hood gaps. Edit: Not any more.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Absolutely can Worn or damaged bushings should be replaced before trying to align body gaps

[@WireWeHere]

@@VinylVillageGarage Actually I wrote quickly as soon as I noticed the front and rear placement error. I too have had a 68 Firebird completely in pieces. One I'll never be parting with.

[@yafois988]

Where 's the anti seize on the bolts threads for the frame?

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Not a Bad idea to add some on those bolts. Even as rusty as they get even to the point to where the bolt has eroded to 1/4” diameter I have gotten them out without breaking them.

[@Zelaznogsiul-63]

I am going to do some work on my 80 pace car trans am soon, I wish I had more room and time to work on it. Really enjoy your videos.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Nice! Hey working in a tight space can add to the challenge but completely doable. Does it still have the turbo engine?

[@Zelaznogsiul-63]

@@VinylVillageGarage yes it does, I bought it back in June, I am going to send the turbo to Tta performance to get it rebuild and do the engine work myself. You did a video on one a few months back, the prices are sky rocketing on the pace cars.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Awesome, to think now most new cars have turbos and Pontiac was doing it in the 80s. That car is still sitting in that back lot hasn’t moved much but deeper in the rocks Unfortunately

[@Zelaznogsiul-63]

@@VinylVillageGarage Hopefully you can get the car later and fix it up, the pace cars are more expensive than the regular turbo trans am, imagine a few decals and a color change makes such a difference in price, a mint pace car according to Hagerty can go up to 63,000, mine not so much.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

That’s a substantial amount of money!

[@stevenpringle7813]

I was under the impression that the alignment holes were just to get it close but that you had to take measurements from the pinch welds to the subframe on either side as well as the distance from the back wheels to the front wheels on either side and then a triangulated measurement from the tails of the subframe to a point on the rear frame rails. I did it this way and drove myself nuts trying to compromise on all three measurements to get it square, Maybe I should have just used the alignment holes and called it good.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I am not saying my way is right and not saying what you did was wrong, I just have had no issues with panel alignment or driving issues using this technique. Problem is even from the factory there cars where less then perfect so where is a know good point to start measuring from? So I decided this was good enough for the factory good Enough for me. I won’t say I wont end up doing some Measurements just for fun.

[@stevenpringle7813]

@@VinylVillageGarageYes, I notice things are different from car to car. When you don't have a good starting point to measure from you have no confidence that any of the measurements are correct. That's why I do two or three measurements and if they all jive I know I am going in the right direction. If they are off then you start to wonder and it can take forever. One car had part of the floor replaced and they didn't put the pan in the right place so the rear subframe bolt position was off. The subframe was not square to the body. I never noticed anything and it was a fair bit off. I fixed it anyway.

[@jamessharp9790]

I only ever used alignment holes and did two triangulated measurements ( well make sure the body itself is square enough first) to rear . No issues with this on first or second Gen F body or X body .

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Spot on. We can only assume this 50 year old shell is good to begin with. Collision and tier damaged has taken its toll. I seem to have great results doing this way as well.

[@stevenpringle7813]

@@VinylVillageGarage Certainly more than one way to do things. You are likely way more accurate than most of the cars were new because you are taking more care to make sure your alignment tool is vertical and not off on an angle. Those old cars didn't handle very well to begin with so that alignment is the least of your worries. They look cool but don't drive that well compared to today's vehicles. Just the way they are.

[@shaggyscarshop]

Awesome work!. That is slick with the socket. I had to find a piece of round stock that I got to work. The specialty tools seemed way too much for what they are. The Great Pumpkin is really coming along. I also had a question for you. Where did you come across the 1969 firebird flag in the back of your garage?

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Thanks!! Work smarter not harder, except for putting the bushings in the wrong place. 🤦‍♂️ the flag my friend Luis gave it to me he found it online somewhere, they come in all kinds of colors too. It might have been Facebook

[@shaggyscarshop]

@@VinylVillageGarage Ill keep digging around for one. I saw it awhile ago and keep forgetting to ask. Its a awesome garage decoration.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

Heck yeah it is. I will ask Luis where he got it from

[@shaggyscarshop]

@@VinylVillageGarage Sweet, Thank you.

[@briannietsch1859]

What’s the best way to sand a car

[@VinylVillageGarage]

That is a tuff one. I like having them media blasted. Other then that I used to use a pneumatic DA sander. But you will need a big compressor to run one effectively. The newer option is an electric DA I have recently been experimenting with one and so far really like it.

[@MAGFivE68]

Hey Jon ! Was blessed with a beautiful 1st gen BiRd I’m calling it “ the vacuum build” got it a year ago really don’t have much knowledge about subframe cars. when I put it up on a lift, the nose seem to dip a little so I am hoping that I could change out these sub frame bushings. not sure of the best kind there’s so many out there didn’t know if I should go with the aluminum ones or factory ones. This car looks totally original. I don’t want to butcher it, but was thinking about doing a four link suspension. Any ideas? Or may be a good suggestion for these bushings should I just use the rubber ones I can’t afford to do the4 link yet but it’s in the plans.

[@VinylVillageGarage]

I use rubber mounts on most of my builds cheaper and they work good. If you plan to add subframe connectors at anytime use aluminum ones. The other option is polyurethane bit more durable then rubber and Last longer too. Congrats on your bird and thanks for keeping it on the road.

[@toml665]

you do nice work but the hand thing has already been done by VGG

[@VinylVillageGarage]

thanks 😊