Intelligence² Debate Verdi vs Wagner: the 200th birthday debate with Stephen Fry

Join Stephen Fry as he chairs a unique debate to celebrate the bicentenaries of two operatic greats. Find out whether the southern allure of Verdi or the Teutonic genius of Wagner triumph with speakers Norman Lebrecht and Philip Hensher.
To illustrate their arguments, the Southbank Sinfonia and conductor Paul Wynne Griffiths perform extracts with singers Dušica Biljelić and John Tomlinson.
This debate formed part of the Deloitte Ignite Festival 2013. Entitled Verdi/Wagner and curated by Stephen Fry, the festival celebrates the joint bicentenary of Giuseppe Verdi and Richard Wagner.
www.roh.org.uk/deloitteignite

[@bloodyIImary]

Verdi deserves a better speaker for his music than Lebrecht. Seriously I don't even know why Lebrecht is such a popular music journalist...

[@adam4757]

+Bloody. Mary He is terrible. Makes him look desperate when he attacks Wagner all the time.

[@openmusic3904]

+Bloody. Mary Yes I agree, he hardly talked about the musical merit of Verdi just about what a great guy he was and what a terrible guy Wagner was. I am sorry but that has nothing to do with their aptitude as composers.

[@alkiskarmpaliotis2776]

Lebrecht was just an underdog. He made some very good points. I agree that he should have talked a bit more about the music, but we must admit that if he had, he would have lost by even more because the pure beauty of Verdi's music is not what modern folk are looking for, no, no. If we were to describe each of their music, as beautiful as it both is, people today would easily prefer the grandeur of Wagner. I like Wagner, but anyone who says that Wagner is WAY better is clearly an opera novice who doesn't know Tristan from Trovatore or Violetta from Valhalla.

[@kylej.whitehead-music309]

When have music journalists ever had an knowledge about music?

[@francescodangelo-guitarist7170]

At least he's got a terrible italian ahah

[@antonio-W6]

Hensher nailed Lebrecht: no one nasty word about Verdi, no one reference to out of context issues. When he says: a lot of nice composers wrote bad Operas, he summed it up. He sat on the piano and let tunes speak. That is all we need and will need!

[@gjeacocke]

Perhaps he left it out. Did you see his argument beforehand?

[@Mropinions100]

Stephen Fry's face throughout is a picture. Towards Lebrecht - amused interest. Towards Hensher - utter admiration.

[@pirveliskola]

Some commentators below definitely lack sense of humor. It was a hilarious debate, not a scientific workshop. I enjoyed it.

[@javiermfernandez-cid1479]

Norman doesn't do Verdi justice.

[@jaikee9477]

Well, I'm German and of course Wagner is closer to me, but then again Italian and German history are unthinkable without one another, and Verdi was brilliant, too. I really have no idea why these men here are trying to play them off against each other. This debate is entertaining but I would NEVER ever compare Verdi to Wagner. They are both great, unique and important in their respective ways, but they are VERY different.

[@TedMackey]

This debate comes up a lot in music history/musicology. I just wrote an essay on this topic for my first year university exams!

[@afdchan8406]

>I really have no idea why these men here are trying to play them off against each other. Obviously to entertain.

[@OpusDogi]

it was not comparing "to" but comparing "against."

[@federicoriccobono651]

as an Italian, I perfectly agree with you

[@rochvalk]

and that's right!!! Yoyu can't compair appels with lemons.....

[@josemiguelaldunateh2380]

I did not like Lebrecht's defense of Verdi. Attacking Wagner is exactly what Verdi would not have done.

[@michaeldemarco8824]

This is my thought as well.

[@MG-fh4ed]

Indeed, Verdi said that Tristan und Isolde is one of the greatest masterworks of the western civilization. And...to compare these composers is like to compare chess and basketball. Different worlds, different cultures. Bad taste!

[@annakimborahpa]

Perhaps Lebrecht might have performed better in appealing to his British audience by putting more emphasis on Verdi's universality through a listing all of the different subject sources for his operas' librettos. In particular, Brits would have perked up hearing more about Verdi's settings of Shakespeare's Othello, Falstaff (Merry Wives of Windsor), and the fact that before his death Verdi was creating sketches for a proposed opera based on King Lear.

[@gjeacocke]

He learnt it from atheists like Stephen fry attacking christians. Ironic in a way since he himself said he is a jew. .

[@bredbandtva7177]

Normally he'd have to be a fool not to, crushing what you're against is half the battle in a debate, and with Wagner there's just so much to attack. If this was a political election he'd have won. But this was an occasion filled with music nerds, so calling out Wagners quite subhuman moral character quite rightfully came off as a distraction.

[@shark4960]

Verdi and Wagner were the two sides of the same coin: Wagner come from the Germanic tradition, focused on symphony and armonia, while Verdi comefrom the Italian tradition, focused on melody and voices.

[@marcossidoruk8033]

Nah, Wagner Is just so much better than verdi at everything

[@marcossidoruk8033]

@@mihalishatzimoysis3363 everything

[@marcossidoruk8033]

@@mihalishatzimoysis3363 yes sir. Just because i dont agree with you i am unprofessional?? Youre ridiculous.

[@marcossidoruk8033]

@@mihalishatzimoysis3363 by the way, i visited your channel and you have a list called "music" and its full of popular music. I think your music taste sucks, but i Wont dismiss you because of that, so i am open to debate. That if you dont commit again the stupidity of "have you ever studied music?" Idiot.

[@marcossidoruk8033]

@@mihalishatzimoysis3363 ahahah youre ridiculous, of course the question "have you ever studied music?" Is rethorical, dont pretend i am stupid. Second, youre wrong, you cant say verdi composed better harmonies or melodies, since the use of harmony and malody in wagner and verdi was radically different. Verdi is more like the continuation of italian opera tradition, he used harmony in a traditional way and melody in the way that you are "supposed to" use it in an opera. Wagner on the other hand, had a much more complex and groundbreaking use of harmony, and melody is used in a different fashion. So i dont see how you could ever define objectively that one is better at any aspect than another, greatness though, that is easier, because you have to take in account the influence and relevance of each composer and there is obvious that wagner is so, soooooo much better. As for popular music, composers used melodies and took influence from traditional music, because that can give national identity to a piece, post globalization popular music is just a degenerated form of classical music, for the most part.

[@composingpenguin]

Lebrecht did such an embarrassing job "defending" Verdi. It isn't hard to find someone who was a better person than Wagner, and Verdi certainly surpasses him there. But this is about music, and arguing the compositional merits of the two is easier for the Wagnerians, I think, because his music is more obvious in its theoretical ingenuity. Verdi, in his more populist-Italianate music--that is, more "conservative"--has a harder time appearing revolutionary. However, time has allowed us to see that the Wagnerian legacy has either burned out, if we follow dodecaphonic line of Schoenberg and the serialists, or become excessively esoteric, as with so many avant-garde composers. Meanwhile, the populist concept of music, that it should follow more closely the outline of a human, is resurging in classical music (and of course has never gone away in popular music). Milton Babbit, talking about Sibelius, said that sometimes the most seemingly radical people are really conservative, while the most seemingly conservative are really radical. I believe this applies to Wagner and Verdi. Side note: I happen to be involved currently in a production of Verdi's "Macbeth," and I definitely see what Lebrecht said about the original production.

[@meto2854]

One of the smartest and most informed comments I have ever read. Chapeau, sir!

[@thescholiast5118]

Thank you for articulating a good argument why Verdi's advances within a conservative framework may excel Wagner's revolution because of its greater harmony with the universals of human life and taste. While this might not persuade many, at least it shows why being "revolutionary" or showing "theoretical sophistication" does not by itself win an argument on musical profundity or aesthetic richness. After all, even though the pinnacle of gastronomy is not populist and commercial, it must remain nutritious, and its forays beyond conventional flavours never goes so far as to upset the balance between spice and staple. I greatly appreciate your quoting Babbit. Could you please elaborate that point about Macbeth?

[@Acid4Blood]

As much as i love verdi's music wagner's work id beyond everything and so powerful

[@patriciaforbes4255]

I am a professional opera singer and must say that I adore both composers. BOTH are sensational and BOTH were geniuses. Wagner appeals to a deep archaic part of all of us and penetrates the unconscious mind in a manner than is impossible to articulate and Verdi composed the most gorgeous melodies to timeless stories which will appeal to many for years to come. BRAVO to BOTH!

[@karentkach9693]

In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason to choose between these two composers - although very different, both were great composers and musical geniuses and I, for one, am eternally grateful that I have the opportunity to listen to and see operas from both of them.

[@memelast7210]

music shouldn't be judged by the composer's politics or personality

[@2000panadero]

I know by heart about 20 Vedi´s operas and all by Wagner except Parsifal . Both are the best opera makers of all time . Different but wonderful . You cannot put one versus the other . Viva Vedi Viva Wagner

[@Operafreak9]

I would add what is always overlooked--Verdi is a composer , Wagner was a musical dramatist , who took very seriously The Oresteia of Aeschylus and wanted to create a true trilogy for modernity that had the numonosity for us moderns that The Orestia had for the Greeks. Compare Verdi to other composers, but Wagner built a very special place so that his works would not be regarded as entertainment. He took that task very seriously. I think we should honor that. The study of some writers such as Michael Ewans should be worthwhile in helping us understand what Wagner was about..

[@MrGratefulheart]

Apples and Oranges? Maybe more like Batman vs. Superman.... It's fun to argue about this stuff, as long as no one gets hurt... but I keep plenty of room for both composers in my listening palace!!!!! Life's too short to forsake one for the other....

[@yummyyum36719]

Interestingly enough I just saw this despite the fact that it happened on my Birthday back in 2013. I must say that while I prefer Wagner the Verdi expert did nothing to serve the many virtues of Verdi's music. He is of course THE Italian opera composer. Lebrecht's incompetent arguments were basically thus: "Wagner was an Antisemite therefore Verdi wins because...Wagner....yuck...." What a stupid argument. Allow me, the Wagnerian, to defend Verdi in the following ways: His counterpoint was absolutely masterful. A submission such as the quartet from Rigoletto would have served the great Italian master much better than any purely orchestral submission, even something as fine as the overture to La Forza. Verdi of course must be sung by great singers. Surely someone with a better voice than the under powered student who sang Willow/Ave Maria here could have been found. Perhaps Jonas signing Di Quella? Just sayin' .... Verdi is also not served by being painted as a "nice guy" just because he was not, according to any written testimony, an Antisemite. The real Verdi, like the real Wagner, had love affairs, was demanding, tyrannical...in other words a typical artist. Also preposterous is Lebrecht's argument that Wagner wished to "exclude Jews" from art. How many Jewish musicians did Wagner hire during his career? It is a long and illustrious list. Hensher rightly points out that Wagner "wanted everyone to be German." I would assert something further. Wagner wanted nothing less than an artistic reaffirmation the Holy Roman Empire, in part a reunification of the Franks (by the mid 19th century French and German peoples, as well as the British and Nordic peoples of the world) via artistic, non violent means. Verdi meanwhile wants a unified Italy and accepts his role as the de facto King of Italy, again through non violent, artistic means. There is however one very dark element to Verdi that was ignored by both experts. Verdi does physical violence to his female characters. The physical violence committed against them is very male, very phallic, very much in keeping with rape fantasy, and in short is subversive because it is so beautiful, so powerful, so seductive that we, even in the "me too" age, still accept it as 'fitting'. Personally as an enemy of sexual censorship I applaud this element of Verdi. Wagner, rather than committing such violence against woman, gives them the choice of death via pure emotion (Isolde, Elsa, Ortrud,) or immolation (Senta, Brunhilde). Then of course there is the wonderful Kundry, Wagner's only actual Jewish character, the greatest of all of his heroines, who dies completely healed in peace, eyes fix upon the simple man who's purity rescues her from a thousand year old curse. Gilda and Leonora (from Forza) get gut stabbed and are forced by the composer to sing about it for 10 minutes as we watch like voyeurs. Desdemona is raped and strangled by her own husband. Again, we watch. Trovatore Leonora poisons herself. We watch as she suffers a slow, painful death. This is prime fetish stuff guys, and Verdi was the supreme master of it. Wagner is therefore less misogynist than Verdi, who injects misogyny into his music with impunity. Wagner does NOT inject Antisemitism into his music. As stated above, his only Jewish character, Kundry, is his most magnificent female character. Complex to be sure, as one would expect from Wagner, but ultimately easily loved and easily admired for her trials and ultimate redemption. My personal verdict is that no one should have to choose between two such great masters. I submit that their human qualities, virtues as well as flaws, make their music equally indispensable to the world.

[@pianopera]

Wagner's anti-semitism was despicable, but his music couldn't be ignored, not even by Jewish musicians -- and many of the greatest musicians of the past were Jewish. The quality of his music simply eclipses all questions and discussions about ethnicity, race or nationality.

[@bbailey7818]

Well said.

[@pinintra]

pianopera Yes!!!!!!!!

[@jaikee9477]

+pianopera May I enlighten you by telling you that Wagner's anti-semitism is completely and entirely irrelevant? Thanks.

[@mattwardpictures]

The first time I heard the Walkürenritt (Hojotho, Heiaha!) within its context in the opera, I had my first real Clockwork Orange moment. Those voices... Oh, there were such pretty pictures...

[@phil6260]

Bizzarre that Lebrecht should get the number of operas Verdi composed wrong (40?) and the date of his death (1891?). Way out on both counts.

[@bbailey7818]

Lebrecht habitually plays fast and loose with facts. He was also wrong about Nabucco being the first opera to portray Hebrews as heroes. Sacred operas during Lent, almost always from the Old Testament was a long-standing tradition in Italy. Apparently he never heard of Rossini's Mose in Egitto, to name only one.

[@yummyyum36719]

He is an imbecile. How insulting to Verdi that he was the defending in this debate.

[@Doep90]

I always enjoyed Verdi much more but when I first heard Wotans farewell I became obsessed with Wagners Ring cycle

[@kuramashot881]

Thank you so much for posting this, and I hope that more programs from this festival will be made available on youtube or for livestream. While I was already sold that Wagner is supreme, I thought the Verdi excerpts were expertly chosen and might have persuaded me to vote for him had I not been familiar with both of their overall catalogue.

[@alessandrolombardi5339]

Wagner was immense, huge perfect ... But the last 5 works by Verdi and the requiem ... Are unsurpassed

[@koryos4273]

The point is that Wagner revolutionized the opera amd Verdi didn't. So for music history Wagner was more important, for personal taste Verdi can definitly be better

[@johnyohalem6507]

Verdi wrote 28 operas (or 26 and two major revisions with name change if you prefer), NOT 40. Where does this guy get that?

[@karlakor]

Even if I hadn't known of Steven Fry's preference for Wagner, I would have come to that conclusion very quickly, judging by his demeanor while Philip Hensher is speaking. The look of satisfaction on his face is clear while Hensher makes his case.

[@adam4757]

Well done to the person who thought it was a good idea to have a Wagner fanatic chairing the debate. Might as well get David Cameron to chair a debate between Conservatives and Labour.

[@MichaelDeMarco]

Fasolt's unwillingness to part with Freya for gold was inspired by the opening moments of Homer's Iliad in which Agamemnon has made just that choice. He had refused the ransom of Chriseis' father, preferring the slave trophy to the gold. Likewise, Achilles, having his own slave trophy taken in turn, refuses the deputation offering gold to buy his subordination later. Wagner's unique twist is to make a careless bargainer of Wotan in contrast with Apollo's swift justice.

[@FeeDragee123]

Shame Lebrecht wasn't able to "promote" Verdi without ad hominem attacks on Wagner; that's an easy way out! Hensher was great, though! never saw the link between the leitmotivs of Wotans Abschied and his spear! and i loved how he told his kid to view Parsifal as a flower slowly opening!! And Sir Tom sang really beautifully the second time! This man is a Titan, carrying our world on his shoulders

[@karlakor]

The entire premise of this debate is absurd. Thank goodness we don't have to make a choice.

[@donprudenzio]

Well said.

[@Danderson238]

And hear hear!

[@2alberich2]

Why debate? Why choose? Both Verdi and Wagner were supreme geniuses. If there is a difference it may be that Verdi was the great storyteller, whereas Wagner delved maybe a bit deeper into the human psyche. That may have to do with the fact that Verdi worked with other li9bretrtist, while Wagner wrote his own. Still, I wouldn:t be without either of them. Suggestion for a rainy afternoon: first listen to Iago's Credo from Verdi's Otello and then shudder at Hagen's Wacht from Wagner's Gotterdammerung. If, after that, you still think there's anything to choose, pity on you.

[@scotgat]

I believe this "debate" is more of a comment on the epoch in which we live than anything else. We believe that everything will be settled through referendum and that life is one long series of winners and losers when, in reality, life is so much more complex than that. Still, it was stimulating and thought provoking, even though the Verdi argument was dubious at best.

[@MrDBarch]

I agree, and I think it is important to make note of the remembrance concept. When comparing the two, one should never forget to include the impression these composers left on our hearts. Which of the two was the better communicator of emotion and the human experience....

[@thomaslangner8894]

For me, the debate is very enjoyable polemic entertainment. Anyway, first there was Bach, godfather of music. Then came Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler and Schostakowitsch,... And so many others. However, Wagner was my entry point to becoming a lover of classical music. That Rheingold staging I attended 25 years ago hit something deeply inside me and opened a new world to me. Enjoying Tannhäuser airing from Bayreuth right now. 🙂

[@sherlockholmeslives.1605]

1813 was the year that the classical styled British Poet Laureate Henry Pye died and the romantic poet Southey became British Laureate. With also the births of Wagner and Verdi, 1813 had significance in the romantic movement.

[@omairagamboa7821]

Maestro Tomlinson, cuán ilustrativa su explicación del aria... Gracias! Mis respetos

[@talktodayusa]

An excellent video to demonstrate why certain people must recuse themselves from moderating.

[@Duketributechannel]

I am a huge fan of Verdi. I find the approach of the Verdi "lawyer" quite incorrect and banal, he mystifies some arguments and introduces reasons for "criticism" blatantly oriented towards today's politically correct softener. Here we talk about music of great music, of great composers. Listening to Verdi or Puccini I have always achieved moments of absolute aesthetic and artistic pleasure, with Wagner I felt the breath of the universe. I would also like to remind the esteemed Verdi "lawyer" that Verdi, after having listened for the first time to Wagner in Bologna in Lohengrin, remained so impressed, bewildered and disoriented that he did not compose more works for 17 years. Another pearl of the Verdian lawyer is the reference to Williams as a modern composer who seems almost to have been struck by Verdi like Paolo on the road to Damascus. Anyone with intellectual honesty listening to Wotan's farewell and the Tristan harmonies will recognize very well who really influenced, and a lot, the composers of twentieth century cinema soundtracks. The same Leone / Morricone combination is certainly more Wagnerian than Verdian for God! I love Verdi very much but Wagner is from another planet and he is the true Titan in the history of music. This clear is just my personal and humble opinion.

[@merca6604]

I’m a Wagnerian! But the opera that I love the most is Verdi’s Otelo.

[@jacobabel2131]

My praise of Verdi is always mediated, he gets the most rise out of my heart when he's lifting scripts from Shakespeare.

[@Mropinions100]

i don't think it was really meant to be a serious debate, just an opportunity to get people talking about verdi, wagner and the wonderful world of opera.

[@fuzzythesheep]

I think I prefer Verdi over Wagner but I definitely prefer Hensher over Lebrecht, his style of debating seems cheap and overly theatrical.

[@ralfrath699]

Beethoven would say Verdi is a composers like all the other known and unknown composers in the world. But Wagner has changed music for ever!

[@DrNoahofChina]

Love how sir John just walks off when his part is done.

[@gabetoso2533]

@@alkiskarmpaliotis2776 I was scrolling through the comments surprised that wasnt brought up more

[@jerhannusloubscher1784]

One bar of Wagner and I'm sold.

[@Rienzi699]

Verdi foi um grande compositor de Óperas,está entre os grandes operistas da história, isto é fato consumado.Mas Wagner está em um nível mais elevado,trata-se de um gênio extraordinário,de grande profundidade técnica e espiritual,neste gênero musical não pode ser comparado a ninguém.

[@MrDIPAKNANDY]

Touche! You've neatly hit every nail on the head. Dipak Nandy

[@TheManWithNoName49]

Most of Norman’s argument centered around each composer’s view or depiction of his people, Jews. Irrelevant to the actual topic.

[@fuferito]

To be fair, one of the featured works is the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves in Verdi's _Nabucco._

[@Paolo8772]

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, but I'd say it's not a strong enough reason to hate Wagner. Like Stephan Fry, I am Jewish and prefer Wagner to Verdi by a very significant margin; I also prefer Puccini to Verdi because I love late romantic music which Verdi was never a champion of. Verdi played it safe and wrote music that was more approachable for its time. He was a nice man, but that's not how we compare composers; we compare them by the quality of their music. That's why Wagner's music wins over Verdi's, as his music ought to.

[@xylophire]

I think this was more of an exposition of both composers, which allowed people to decide (subjectively) which they liked better. Other programs usually have more objective conclusions.

[@jefsuykens1876]

A difference that remained underexposed is the revolutionary creativity of Wagner who created a complete new musical language, based upon chromatic techniques, sublime orchestration woven into the storytelling and vocal parts, whereas Verdi just continued the tradition already created by his peer predecessors Bellini, Donizetti and Rossini (and did not hesitate to copy entire aria's).

[@loge10]

A bit late in seeing this (7 years already?) but I think the Hensher was magnificent is expressing why Wagner is so powerful - and to many, so dangerous - the hugeness of his humanity - both light and dark, and the scope of his genius which has not been surpassed in human history (IMHO). Nothing takes me to where Wagner takes me. The choices for first opera experiences of the composers was also interesting. In terms of Verdi, Traviata is probably my least favorite "warhorse" Verdi opera - I find I'm never that engaged. Actually, for me, I would start at the end, as Hensher did with Wagner: Falstaff is my favorite Verdi opera and to me the most moving in a totally "human" kind of way. After that comes the Requiem (OK, I know it's not an opera, exactly). Rigoletto is best for a "warhorse" Verdi opera. For Wagner, while I love Parsifal and went from loving the music of Wagner to being a true Wagnerian after an experience of that work at the Met, my choice would be Die Walkure, as it is, I think, the most immediately accessible and human (again), the incest notwithstanding...

[@yummyyum36719]

I have conducted both Verdi and Wagner works. I too am not all that enthralled with Traviata, which I have conducted a number of times. There is easily 45 minutes of music that can be cut from it, thus improving it greatly. I would never dream of cutting one note from Rigoletto. One could argue that there is no "first Wagner opera" suitable. I took a very good friend who is a brilliant pop musician to see Tristan with me, as I had multiple opportunities to see it in one run. He got it right away and became a Wagner fan from that point on. By the same token I took my wife, when we were just dating, to that same run of Tristan performances. It was also her first live Wagner and she became very much enthralled with him. Later I had the pleasure of conducting her as Venus in Tannhauser.

[@williammountfield8508]

Personally I would say La forza is a great start for Verdi (maybe that’s just because I have the 1958 Naples production on tape) and the ring for Wagner.

[@cdcollom]

I love Stephen Fry so very much, but he was a very biased moderator.

[@tannhaeuserx464]

I started with Lohengrin years ago, just like what Norman Lebrecht recommended.

[@michaelknight7075]

Just listen to the first 5 mins of Die Walkure. No one ever put on the score such magic harmonies

[@DeGuillac]

You just have to ask yourself whether anyone's going to be holding debates about hiphop in two centuries' time.

[@mattwardpictures]

Between Public Enemy and Rage Against The Machine, maybe... Though the two parties aren't diametrically opposed, they both had very brief and incandescent creative halcyon periods before breaking apart, and the social issues the two bands dealt with are evergreen as of today. I'm looking forward to the grunge debate between Nirvana vs Soundgarden. Teen angst and suburban ennui are also evergreen.

[@bredbandtva7177]

RAP BATTLES

[@lowellbrooker2148]

I hope not

[@Paolo8772]

The best way to introduce a newcomer to Wagner would be to play the last 11-12 minutes of Gotterdammerung, starting from Brunhilde's 2nd Ruhe: "Ruhe du Gott!"; when the music finally arrives at its final key; the same key Gotterdammerung and finale of the entire "Ring" ends in; (also the same key Das Rheingold's 2nd scene starts in and final scene ends in): D flat Major.

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

As a person, Verdi. Wagner was pretty much a douche. But when it comes to music, I love both.

[@kurbiscremesuppe]

Verdi's music is perfect for background music, while having pre-dinner at an Italian restaurant before going to see a Wagner opera at Covent Garden!

[@omairagamboa7821]

Or perhaps at Bayreuth

[@francescodangelo-guitarist7170]

For this comment you don't deserve any italian dinner :D

[@yummyyum36719]

I disagree. Verdi is a great master. I prefer Wagner but there is no reason to insult Italy's greatest composer. The British would give their collective left testicle to have a composer half as great as Verdi that they didn't have to import from Europe.

[@yummyyum36719]

@@francescodangelo-guitarist7170 Well said. Italian food is spectacular as is Italian opera. By the same token I love Wagner and I enjoy a good Jagerschnitzel.

[@gillian67ec]

Che commento idiota.

[@giulia3710]

Could anyone tell me what Fry says at 0:30:07-09? Many thanks

[@ericchristen2623]

The winner is music and in particular Opera. How magical is the universe of music. How dull is science by comparison.

[@USERNAMEfieldempty]

SPOILER ALERT! Wagner gets knocked out in the fifth by a surprise left uppercut. Up to that point he was winning easily on points.

[@antonio-W6]

and by the way look at 1:10 the view on the Hamlyn hall on Wagner tunes: fantastic!!!!!!

[@Paolo8772]

@ 6:50: How many Vinyl 33.3 RPM disks would it take to play the Ring? 17? That means each side is 14.6 hours divided by 34.

[@lasperviajera]

I can´t say whether Wagner was the better composer or the greater genius, but I have the impression Verdi´s music is closer to people´s feelings. I mean, mos people heard the "Brindisi" (Toast) from Traviata, or "La donna e mobile" and may be able to remember and sing the tune. As for Wagner, of course, "Liebestod" or "The ride of the Walkyrie" are certainly well known and highlights of operatic music, but how many people can remember or sing them? Of course, just my opinion.

[@pieemme]

It' fascinating how Italian and German cultures have been intertwined along history: Popedom and Empire (Holy Roman btw); 2 nations for a long time without their own state; unified at almost the same time; sadly assimilated by 2 horrible dictatorships. Even the language structures carry striking similarities, if you happen to speak both, in spite of the apparent, obvious apartness. The entire excercise of comparing Verdi and Wagner is just a game, an excuse for digging more deeply into their characters.

[@theredale5070]

I feel we italians and germans are like two brothers with opposite characters: we may seem totally different, but in reality we share a bond that unite us far deeper than anyone would think

[@CarolusInciusEtScoti]

Who is the greatest operatic mind between Wagner and Verdi? Stephen Fry. Stephen Fry is the greatest operatic mind between Wagner and Verdi... he is literally sitting right between the genius of Verdi and Wagner...

[@MrDIPAKNANDY]

Reading about music will actually enhance your knowledge and understanding, especially if you know how to follow the music with a full orchestral score. Try it some time. It will do you the world of good - by providing a context in which to evaluate what you are listening to. I'm going through Corelli at the moment, with the scores, and a splendid, learned, enlightening book 'Arcangelo Corelli: The New orpheus of the North'. I recommend it to you as I say Goodbye. Dioak Nandy

[@lundilar]

I cannot imagine living in a world without Verdi or Wagner both.

[@williammountfield8508]

Exactly there is a list of composers without whom the world would be dreadful Verdi and Wagner of course on on that list and personally I would add Puccini, Donizetti, Massenet, Strauss, Rossini, and Gounod.

[@ngershon]

What a bloody waste. I admire both composers, yet I am so disappointed Verdi didn't get a fair case. You CAN compare greatness, and verdi is not just some nice chap but a true great. The range of work, the range of roles for different singers, the efficient and so successfully consistent story structure he used, the use of side characters as the drive for a story; I could go on. In addition, Wagner missed big on his ideal to make opera an event for all people; Verdi no doubt quite the opposite. And Wagner's work has its fair share of uninspiring pieces. For example, I find lohengrin pretty boring; you wait three hours for one good aria, and the overtures can sum up the story by themselves. That being said, the ring, Tristan and parsifal are matched by none. That being said, his antisemitism and general unsympathetic personality needs to make anyone who listens to his music ambivalent and in conflict. Back to Verdi. Verdi drove Italian opera singlehandedly from Bel Canto to Verisimo and all that came in between, had more than enough of his own niche (manrico is so unique I can't actually thing of an active singer today who could do that role justice), gave us a requiem for the ages, kept reinventing himself, and put together a body of work which makes one scratch his head for quite a while to around it. Bravo Verdi!

[@13CurlyBear]

There is no question that Verdi was a much nicer person than Wagner - that is not the point though. I think it might have been more convincing to discuss the innovation in musical terms, the talent to keep things in motion at all times, not a moment wasted.

[@kellicoffman8440]

Having watched just a little I agree while I am absolutely in opposition to any antisemitism Wagner included especially with the war in in Israel. I think the debate should be about music 🎼 an as both are very great composers a case should be able to be made using that evidence

[@kellicoffman8440]

This seems to have much more animosity between the parties than the debates on literature author’s like dickens v Tolstoy or the Brontes V Jane Austen cannot opera enthusiasts appreciate more than one composer and style

[@mariveneta]

In two sentences you say it all! I really wonder if someone could say it better.

[@MrDIPAKNANDY]

Thank you for the comment, which I saw after I had replied to our pompous, pedantic friend. Dipak Nandy

[@freyashipley6556]

I pity Norman Lebrecht. What an utterly impossible task. I wonder: for those who love Verdi, does listening to his music give them anything like the ecstatic euphoria that we Wagnerphiles get from *Tristan*?

[@bma1955alimarber]

I prefer to say:' I would like all the people of the world be simple, passionate and empathetic in sens of Verdi, but as ethically and rationally strong as Wagner would prefer '

[@Virtuoso80]

Verdi was quite good, and amazingly kept getting better with age, to the extent that his late masterpiece Otello is almost on par with Wagner. But Wagner is Wagner: Transcendent.

[@Chriswmagic]

Verdi was the better tipper.

[@Patriotman54]

wonderful ( Richard Wagner) 52:17 the case for RW

[@michaelrollo6518]

I grew up with Verdi La Traviata I would listen to it at six years of age was my faviorite of all operas Wagner was the greatest dramatist and of course composer but so wasn't Verdi every time I listen to Desdemona's ave Maria I burst into tears. I just wish I could write like Wagner and compose like Verdi Mahler used Wagner's good friday music in his first symphony.

[@TommyRichey]

No Hollywood/John Williams without Verdi was an absurd claim. John Williams is a direct legacy of Wagnerian orchestration and leitmotifs.

[@PerhapsLove]

They really offering different things, why compare ? BTW. I admitted that I totally fall in love with Phillip Hensher's voice ;-) not speaking of his debating ;-)

[@garrysmodsketches]

>"Italians have the right to self-determination" >"Italy must be multi cultural" You need to pick one of these things. You can't have both

[@ob4161]

1:34:29 "Wagner's indispensable influence on Wagner" What?

[@danielmark4869]

Kind of a silly thing to debate. Having to choose one or the other as better is like being asked to choose which one of your parents you love more.

[@shosha1878]

One of opera I like most by Verdi, it's indeed Rigoletto...

[@shanghai72]

Everyone knows Stephen Fry is a big Wagnerian, Hard for him to stay neutral. And right he is!

[@goddamnthedamned]

What composers/works would you suggest a novice to begin with? From the little I've listened to, I lean towards Verdi and Vivali (no one could argue Wagner's genius of course).

[@jacobabel2131]

Die Meistersingers is Wagner's most traditional Opera, it's a classic love story with easy to follow musical themes but rich philosophical complexity. Take heart, it's about a six hour journey, so treat it like a double feature and don't start drinking until after the first intermission.

[@MDM679]

Surely Verdi.

[@seagirltoo]

This seems less of debate and more of a Wagner masterclass delivered by Fry, Sir Tomlinson and the Wagner proponent, who wax lyrical about W’s technical perfection. Verdi is dismissed as too “good a man” to be able to compose music for his evil characters. On his corner, Verdi has a lightweight who has apparently only really listened to Nabucco and who, even though he pretends to be a "populist", manages to insult two nations in one minute (Italians have the attention span of a butterfly and

[@SamanthaIreneYTube]

Why not both? This debate is so odd to me. They’re just 2 different visions and iterations.

[@lisamatveeva9688]

30:10 "Wagner idealises power and identifies with it". The hell? I mean, has Lebrecht even read the libretto of 'Die Walküre'? Nice idealisation in all that Wotan's agony and misery.

[@lisamatveeva9688]

Elizaveta Matveeva Of course, Hensher picked at that in the end. I was sure he would.

[@DeGuillac]

That's an ignorant comment. Wagner made anti-Jewish noises, but so did most Germans of his era -- long before Hitler was even born. Wagner was actually less anti-semitic than most, he never called for any violence or discrimination against Jews, and even had Jewish assistants living as friends and family members; one of them was the conductor he chose for his last greatest work, Hermann Levi. It's not Wagner's fault that Hitler liked the music; he liked Beethoven and Lehar just as much. If you don't want to listen to anti-semites, you're going to have do without TS Eliot, WB Yeats, Shakespeare, and almost every Christian born before about 1800. And plenty of hiphop fans. As to elites, ever considered they might really *be* superior?

[@sabbivideo]

Verdi no doubt

[@Wowowowowowowowowowowowow]

Wagner is more my style, his compositions are so opulent and grand. Not that it necessarily speaks to the quality of the music but his stuff has also made more of a lasting impact on the culture in the 20th century and today. Verdi is beautiful tho, really just depends on taste in style.

[@mikefuller6959]

I'm sure Stephen Fry would agree with me that to compare such outstanding geniuses music together is futile! It is a great chance to enjoy these composer's wonderful music though! 1813 was a significant year in romanticism as the romantic poet Robert Southey ( 1774 - 1843 ) became British Poet Laureate in 1813 and because the romantic composers Wagner ( 1813 - 1883 ) and Verdi ( 1813 - 1901 ) were born. Also Handel ( 1685 - 1759 ) and Bach ( 1685 - 1750 ) were both born in the same year, and at a lesser level of genius? Harrison Birtwistle ( b.1934 ) and Peter Maxwell Davies ( 1934 - 2016 ).

[@sherlockholmeslives.1605]

And?

[@sherlockholmeslives.1605]

All My Poems Are Shit!!! I am NOT clever!!! I absolutely fucking detest mountains!!! I have never climbed a mountain and I never will!!! I detest mountain scenery!!! I can't read!!! I have an Unbelievably SHIT memory!!! I know one 5 line poem from memory and that is my limit!!! I absolutely fucking detest The Beatles!!! I absolutely detest 60's Pop Music SHIT!!!

[@sherlockholmeslives.1605]

A Poem By Mikey Pink Racing Car A pink racing car. A pink racing car. In my dreams I could go far In my beloved pink racing car. 2015

[@sherlockholmeslives.1605]

Do you like Ponchielli's music, User Name? Amilcare Ponchielli ( 1834 - 1886 ) Italian Composer ( Mainly of Operas ) and Musical Prodigy.

[@TheClassicWorld]

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

[@goddamnthedamned]

That's kind of you to say. I wouldn't let internet conversations bother me. They're exercised with detachment (and unkindness, unfortunately).

[@cippollino83]

Nietzsche contra Wagner "Nietzsche contra Wagner" is a critical essay by Friedrich Nietzsche, composed of recycled passages from his past works. It was written in his last year of lucidity (1888-1889), but was not published until 1895, six years after his mental collapse. Nietzsche describes in this short work why he parted ways with his one-time idol and friend, Richard Wagner. Nietzsche attacks Wagner's views, expressing disappointment and frustration in Wagner's life choices (such as his conversion to Christianity, perceived as a sign of weakness). Nietzsche evaluates Wagner's philosophy on tonality, music and art; he admires Wagner's power to emote and express himself, but largely disdains what Nietzsche calls his religious biases.

[@g3org33r3]

doesn't that apply to almost every debate then?

[@michaelknight7075]

I don't need to read a book to change my musical cognitions and idea. Verdi's got a great dramatic talent but his musical field is limited. Wagner harmonic greatness is simply another thing.

[@ralfrath699]

You can also compare apples with pears! Is also possible! But this makes no sense! So also to compare two composers wagner and verdi! What can we compare? The music? I do not think so! Maybe the lifes of the composers - both were rebels - wagner in germany and verdi in italy!

[@melchizedekmartinez6571]

Phil Spector vs. The Beach Boys.

[@michsturge]

It wasn't really a debate; more like a two man symposium. I thought the Wagner guy did fine, but not the Verdi guy. He never really discussed the music, just biographical facts, personal observations and absurd or outright false claims. His implication that Verdi's more positive attitude toward Jews is reason enough to prefer him is ridiculous. Wagner is clearly the superior composer and greater all around genius, but there is much to admire in Verdi I admire and would not wish to be without.