Verdi vs Wagner: the 200th birthday debate with Stephen Fry

[@oscargordon]

I don't see pompousness in Wagner's music at all. Nobody before or since has been able to plumb the emotional depth or inner turmoil of the characters like Wagner. As was pointed out, even the minor characters are well conceived. Mr. Hensher failed to point out that Wagner did not include box seats in Bayreuth and refused to give any privilege to the aristocracy. He was most definitely a man of the people.

[@mikewalsh6168]

Unless you happened to be Jewish. No box seats for them

[@TheYopogo]

Well... In fact Wagner always had Jewish admirers and Wagner was delighted by this, many of them were his friends and saw his operas performed at Bayreuth. Wagner's extreme antisemitism was appalling but it was political in nature, not a matter of personal prejudice but of ideological commitment.

[@jasonsampson1301]

Shut up

[@dikferrari1396]

Try Bruckner or Mahler, both Wagner inspired but both are able to dive deep into that emotional depth you speak about.

[@minui8758]

⁠@@TheYopogo I’m in the Wagner camp here musically but you’re whitewashing his relationship with Jewish patrons. He accepted their money and even courted their favours and treated them with charm but then wrote contemptuously about the very same individuals, both while receiving cash and then even more viciously if they stopped paying up. It’s arguably not intrinsically anti semitic because he was an equally vindictive user of all his friends, circumcised or baptised, and famously believed artistic genius was owed support. However the rhetoric when his creditor or ex patron was Jewish was violently and intensely anti semitic. He was at most levels pretty contemptible and today we’d probably diagnose him with some kind of personality disorder

[@MartyMusic777]

The thing that struck me as funny was when the comment was made "where would John Williams be without Verdi?" ... Have you EVER listened to Star Wars? Williams' scoring is near-identical to a Wagnerian orchestra, and there are explicit quotations from Tristan in there. This is not to say that other influences aren't there (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Richard Strauss in a few spots), but to suggest that Verdi had any influence on film score is just ludicrous. More than anything, Verdi more strongly influenced how musical theatre would develop, especially in how songs were written, and this is an enormous influence and shouldn't be ignored. But let's face facts: any modern orchestral score composer takes at least a couple cues from Wagner, especially due to his development of leitmotifs in concurrence with the action.

[@Djembe908]

John Williams is a lover of Wagners compositions.

[@classicalmusic1175]

You forgot to mention Gustav Holst. Williams drew enormous inspiration for his scores from Holst's Planet Suite.

[@MartyMusic777]

Classical Music11 Well...I'm not saying that he was "directly" quoting Holst's Mars near the beginning of Star Wars Episode IV...but he totally was. I had completely forgotten about Holst, but you're absolutely right.

[@lenircotia]

If I remember correctly, John Williams used the idea of a Leitmotiv as Wagner invented it. Without Wagner's Leitmotiv invention we would not have the Leitmotiv of the Force Theme when Luke looks into the distance of the twin-sunset

[@rickhenderson2970]

Yeah, it's not just Williams. Pretty much all of film scoring descends from Wagner's conception of leitmotifs, and this long precedes Williams. Perhaps the most famous early example is Preminger's Laura.

[@ollenyren9842]

Absolutely one of the best shows I've ever watched, and I've gone back to it over and over again, and I get more and more convinced of Wagner's brilliance every time. The way that it is broken down and explained in detail in 1:00:22 is simply astounding and pedagogically superb!

[@TheYopogo]

I'm personally disposed to agreeing with the Wagnerian side of the argument here, and that side is argued much better in this debate; but I feel I must say: Verdi is a much better composer than this debate makes it seem. People are drawn to the instantly memorable, beautiful, singable melodies which are everywhere in his work, and he undoubtedly had a great talent for them, but this is nothing like the be all and end all of his value. Verdi's music is profound and magnificent and utterly serious. The similarities his music has with the melodramatic vocal flourishes and sloppy orchestration which sometimes appear in Italian opera are cosmetic only. His music is utterly refined and meticulously balanced and it will plumb the depths of your soul every bit as much as Wagner can, if you have only the ears to listen and the heart to feel.

[@GazmendCeno]

That is true. Yet, even if better areas were offered, still you can't go against W.

[@Horichdaslicht1858]

Much as I love Verdi, Wagner plumbs the depths of what it is to be human in all it's nobility, frailty and self-contradiction like no other composer i have ever encountered.

[@pensiring7112]

Wagner loves power? The whole ring is about rejecting power and greed in favour of love, it literally shows how greed and lust for power and laws and contracts and all that which symbolizes and manifests power lead to the destruction of the whole world, as in the end, Valhalla burns down and the Rhine floods the rest of the world... Wotan gets his power by cutting of a branch of the world tree, and writing his law in runes on it, but that kills the world tree and poisons the spring flowing beneath it. The whole world slowly gets corrupted because of this act. The speaker obviously confuses the canvas (gods, princes) with the words written on it.

[@elainemurray8994]

#

[@borisvandruff7532]

I love Verdi, but Lebrecht’s tactics are disgusting here. “Verdi is good because he’s not anti-Semitic. Wagner is bad because he’s anti-Semitic.” There are much better metrics for gauging the genius of a composer.

[@WTF3585]

Well he was also a mysoginist and a racialist :/

[@aydenpostigo2910]

Wagner rules but I like Verdi

[@beurksman]

I was afraid that this is what would happen

[@WTF3585]

@Kookman yeah well thanks cap obvious I'm not thaaaaaaat thick hahaha

[@Rayve1609]

Wagner had his faults, but he was a great composer. One has only to listen to the Entry of the gods into Valhalla. And i am not so much with the pagan or germanian or aryan something bullshit. I just like a good piece of music, and i can recognize it, when it gets to me. Compared (and thats something of the point in this debate) to Wagner, Verdi is a teenager, who's just not settled, who makes quite a mess of everything, its all a bit loud and fast and untidy.

[@tittletattle100]

I'm afraid 'Tristan' makes this a non-contest. 'The death of Isolde' is simply incomparable in its power to move. That would be my introductory piece every time.

[@AlexanderArsov]

Is there something fundamentally wrong with a person who is more moved by Philip's soliloquy, Otello's death, the final duet in "Aida", Violetta's "Addio del passato" or Rigoletto's "Cortigiani"? I should think not.

[@LazlosPlane]

Nonsense.

[@hertzair1186]

And the ‘Tristan Chord’ is forever being musically analyzed.

[@donkeychan491]

Tristan has to be one of the dullest operas ever written, with more shameless repetition than any other.

[@bingbongtoysKY]

what a BLAST!!! I love both of them- of course! this is such a good time! thank you,

[@sigalius]

Summary - Verdi side: "Poor Jews. Wagner was not a nice man. I don't like him personally, and neither should you. Verdi wrote unaffected by the expectations of critics, who asked "Why not be more like Wagner?" Verdi captured the Italian spirit, but was never a nasty nationalist. You should like Verdi because he wrote a lot, was humble, and was a populist. Verdi is inclusive, Wagner is exclusive and elitist. No wonder he's so popular." Wagner side: "A good man can be a bad composer, as a bad man can be a good composer. Let's talk about the music and the genius of the work. Wagner penetrates with great insight into the human psyche. Wagner weaves complexity and innovation, using myths and gods, with the goal of encapsulating very human conditions. The epitome of his innovation is the Tristan chord, which serves as the pinnacle of 19th century music. The power of his work is gripping and transformative. Wagner is maddeningly captivating." I might add two things. 1. As other commentators have noted, the bit about Verdi and John Williams is astonishing, considering how many Wagnerian techniques John Williams uses. There's no equivocation. He argues for influence by exposure at the end, but the techniques and actual works on paper speak for themselves. There's nothing unequivocally identifiable of Verdi in John Williams. Of Wagner, the answer is easy if you just look at the structures and patterns. 2. Comparing the performance frequency of Verdi and Wagner is truly an improper comparison, because, very simply, Wagner's operas are extremely demanding (both production-wise and physically to the singers), whereas Verdi's operas (much like most composers) are sing-songy and relatively tame.

[@rickhenderson2970]

Yes, the Verdi side argued badly, and the shame of it is that Verdi is not embarrassed by Wagner either musically or as a musical-dramatist. As I briefly note above in my reply to Alexander Hay-Whitton, there's far more to Verdi than his accessible melodiousness. I've always thought the Verdi/Wagner comparison is not unlike the Shakespeare/Milton comparison. The difference between profoundly human artists vs profoundly spiritual artists. In a way, Meistersinger was Wagner trying to be Verdi and Aida was Verdi trying to be Wagner; as if Milton had tried to write The Tempest and Shakespeare had tried to write Paradise Lost. Do I feel Wagner is better? Yes. I actually feel his only challenge is Mozart rather than Verdi--after Tristan I feel the three greatest operas are Figaro, Don G, and Cosi. Still, I love Verdi and a much a better case can be made than was made here.

[@user-ut3zn1en9o]

Verdi operas aren't tame.

[@FEZASA727]

Communist detected opinion rejected.

[@karlavonhuben1381]

When Lebrecht called Desdemona "all bling and handbags" I wanted to kick him. I found some of his statements close to racism, and very offensive, and his "jokes" amused no one. Verdi deserved a better champion.

[@johnjones6601]

His citation of Wagner's anti-semitism should have no bearing on the task at hand.

[@ShaneyElderberry]

The moments of fruitless rebuttal were a desperate attempt to scorn the artist and ignore the works of art - the true measure of this event. It's a pity that Verdi's music was not examined and explained as well as Wagner's was. I'm one of Wagner's rapturously devoted fans, but Verdi deserved a much better presentation.

[@andreapandypetrapan]

Nice debate. Verdi is a thrilling and highly fluent professional composer, dramatist and very sophisticated Italian political analyst .... but compared to the supreme orchestral inventiveness and psychodramatic, philosophical, moral and political brilliance of Wagner? The history of Western High Art music and all art and much politics would be utterly different, and much less, without Wagner. That is not the case with Verdi. No one has written greater music that the Prelude and Liebestod of "Tristan und Isolde", or the Transformation and Good Friday Music of "Parsifal", or the Prelude to "Das Rhinegold", etc, etc, etc, etc. One reason why Wagner is a stunning psycho-dramatist (more Freudian, Jungian and Kleinian than those trinity together) is becasue she has, at her Athena-Isis-Kali Ma, disposal an orchestral giftedness (rather more melodic and revolutionary harmoinc and instrumental timbre than rhymical potency) that speaks in polyphonic voices, and not really consciously tenable harmonics, from our deepest individual and collective themes, archetypes, grinding contradictions, etc, etc. Wagner had an ultra special access to these oceanic submerged and supremely human energies, and could resurrect them into our conscious sensuous embrace, with her really delicious musico-dramatic techniques. Particularly when approaching moments of transcendental reunification between persons, and within moral-political ideals of truth, honesty and cooperation, and emersed in the polytheistic female divine, in absolute shakti erotic splendour ..... then the sunburst levels of revelation, ego incineration, and consummation of being-knowledge-feeling-love, are actually a little difficult to handle, for extended times. That is why if you get Rachael's music, you are never the same woman! That in actuality is why hearing Wagner is distinctly like making love with ones dearest polyamorous sisterhood, whilst in the embrace of Kali Ma and Isis and Aphrodite and Gaia! And to be making love with ones sisterhood whilst hearing Rachael and feeling her irresistible orchestral psyche woven through us, is to become female-divine, amidst the flames of shakti energy, if only and sadly for a while. As for Wagner's occasionally high-strung and distasteful contempt for "the Jewish influence in contemporary German culture and music", this was mostly a somewhat reprehensible (or too glibly adopted) code-word for her real target - a category of second-rate note-spinners whom she more deeply and justifiably despised because, by Wagner's lights, they were not drawing on the oceanic and subconscious springs of a deeply located and essentially tribal musico-culture. BTW, from my earliest recollection I've called the Magician of Bayreuth Dr Rachael von Wagner, and adored her almost as much as kindly Kali Ma, because to my female heart only a woman normally has this galactic insight and richness and complexity of emotional repertoire and modelling of other persona. Amongst western art musicians Mozart, Puccini and Handel have it too. Brahms likewise. Perhaps those who condemn this fearsome strain of contempt on Wagner's part should asks themselves three questions: (1) find a mid-19th century European noted contemporary including Marx und Engels who did not regard with similar or greater contempt this gold-digging rootless parasitism of cultures, which was evolving and burgeoning within Patriarchal-capitalism, and prised by assorted leagues of musical minstrels (Mendelssohn, OMGoddess, no thanks) and bourgeois lickspittles ? (2) by way of illuminating comparison, was Wagner more antisemitic than that English genius of wit, oratory, pragmatism and literature Benjamin Disraeli? Whom I love with all my womanly affections and allegiances. Who found it pragmatic to convert to English Protestantism! (3) why should transcendental genius be personally morally, emotionally and psycho-dramatically sympatico? That is a modern romanticising misconception. Most front-rank creative artists, especially those with a Y-chromosome and a cock and two balls, are insufferable ego-maniacs, and blow whirl winds of extremities that are shocking to more mundane hearts? Since I write in late Dec 2024, let's ask our Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian sisterhood if there is a problem with Hebraic exceptionalism? Everyone is entitled to their national homelands, except Palestinians, of whom several 100,000 are also not entitled to continue living in Greater Israel, or to continue living at all. But of course, this is not a Jewish problem, this is an Israeli problem, an issue of state policy in the hands of Zionist zealots and fanatics. Sure ... believe that and you will believe the cheapest most utilitarian propaganda that would have disgraced Dr Goebbels. I'd much rather listen to Respighi than Verdi. It isn't correct to say at 30:00 that Wagner idealises power and identifies with it. That comment is total infantile rubbish. Racheal exquisitely analyses the psychodramatic and moral seductiveness of power, and its utterly corrupting and ultimately self-destructive energies. I wont be listening to Norman Lebrecht much in the future, because he is either being stupid, facetious in bad taste, or slyly wrong for ulterior motives. That eternal condemnatory point of the spiritual corruptiveness of all political and financial power, especially the power to enslave others via the gold-power in the hands of the rootless international financier classes - that theme is one of the great moral, in fact Buddhistic, lessons to be drawn form the trajectory of that hyper-symbol, the Rhinegold, and all who touch it. Hence before Brunhild can be reunited in the world consciousness with the psychical energies of her lover, whom again i would prefer to shift into the female configuration Siegfrieda, she has to reject, and jettison the ring, and return it to that cynical worldly trio of erotic services workers and hydroelectric workers and security guards, of the larky Rhine Maidens. Let us note that to be reunited with her Siegfrieda, her supreme soulmate and lover from whom separation amounts to existential torture, Brunhilda rides her sacred chariot, Grane, through the purifying flames that are destroying the paranoid and power-driven vanities and follies of masculine ego-fortress of Valhalla. Another hyper Buddhistic and indeed Hindu moment. Much like Lady Shiva dancing through the ring of flames, and standing on the Pig of grovelling ignorance, in her form as Lady Shiva Nataraja. I don't notice Verdi even comprehending let alone discoursing upon any of this transcendental philosophy, which is probably not dinner table talk in Palermo of Naples or Milano or Bari. Which is a pity, because the cuisine is light years better than anything in Berlin or Munich! En fin, in a sense it is a faux exercise in an admittedly amusing mis-comparison, to try hopping easily from the Mediterranean to the North German mentality. Love andrea

[@hochang927]

both were great opera composers no matter what.

[@madsgram8437]

What I found in Verdi was an elegance , compassion and sensistivity unmatched. But I must say, that just the prelude to Tristan and Isolde filled me with a prism of fellings. Clairty, confussion, joy, dread, desire, a sense of lightness and the same time a glimpse of a dawning abyss. And that was just the prelude.

[@oscargordon]

No matter how much I enjoy Verdi operas, if Verdi had never lived, I doubt the future of music would have been altered in any way, whereas Wagner shook music to its core.

[@pmrossetti1]

Fry's face when Verdi guy is talking cracks me up.:)

[@gillianomotoso328]

*When you realize Fry looks like Wagner when he’s shaven*

[@vitogeraci7146]

I thought the exact same thing when I didn’t know Fry until I clicked on this video.

[@mikeinkc]

Fry is Jewish, watch his documentary Wagner and Me, he wrestles with Wagner's anti-semitism, and his love of his music. It is well done, and thought provoking.

[@jacac]

The BBC documentary on Verdi made a much better case for the composer than this guy. The Wagner advocate did a great work, on the other side.

[@philiproseel3506]

A fan of both composers, but I do believe Wagner was more influential. Rather difficult to pick a "winner". They are both giants in opera. They both feature very early in my appreciation of music, listening to old Caruso records of Verdi with my mother, and discovering Wagner's Tannhauser a few years later.

[@julianburgess6947]

Wagner was more influential but Verdi has given more pleasure, at least to me.

[@philiproseel3506]

@@julianburgess6947 For me, I would say they were both equally influential, but at different times of my life.

[@erandeser5830]

Verdi was the perfection of a past era, romantics and esthetics. Wagner traces back to Beethoven, he is expression, he opened new fields where Mahler, Stravinsky and many others rooted their music.

[@donkeychan491]

Stravinsky despised Wagner's music and adored Verdi's. He considered Rigoletto and Falstaff the two greatest operas ever written.

[@erandeser5830]

@@donkeychan491 Stravinsky had jewish reasons to despise Wagner. And for Rigoletto, imo he was right.

[@donkeychan491]

@@erandeser5830Stravinsky was himself an antisemite, so that certainly wasn't the reason he disliked Wagner: he just found Wagner's music turgid, overwrought, and repetitive: which it is. Wagner certainly opened new fields for exploration - but not for Stravinsky who, like Verdi, reinvented traditional forms in their own distinct ways.

[@adig2414]

​@donkeychan491 he hated Wagner because he was an edgy modernist who was beholden to his overly intellectual aesthetic. Hating romanticism was typical of the time. Ravel was the same. But he was still influenced by Wagner, because people that set out on a musical path with the express intent of trying to break free of Wagner's grasp means you're every bit as beholden to him as his imitators. You couldn't ignore him. You first had to come to terms with him. And Stravinsky's music is orders of magnitude more repetitive than Wagner. Wagner is perhaps the least repetitive composer. Stravinsky literally had a neoclassical period, where repetition is integral.

[@haydenbarnes5110]

Gogh once said (and I'm paraphrasing) that there has been no one who had done for his art [painting] as had Wagner done for composing.

[@martinstremlow2997]

What a wonderful discussion of three brilliant connoisseurs. And John Tomlinsom is just am amazing highlight.!

[@OldSchopenhauer]

I honestly think the Verdi advocate just had a grudge against Wagner for being an antisemite. How else can he extol Mahler, and then downplay Wagner's influence?

[@menukjau]

This is a very interesting conversation, sounds fun. However, what's the point of comparing different composers, they were all fantastic in their own right. There are no bad operas, it's your personal taste. I enjoy both Wagner and Verdi as well as other operatic composers such as Donizetti, Bellini and Messenet.

[@tonirose6776]

Massenet, and Puccini.

What a pleasure to hear intelligent people talk (and in complete sentences)

[@Pseudo-Aquinas]

Roger Scruton should be here!

[@Operafreak9]

Scruton would have added so much. He gets Wagner.

[@jasonsampson1301]

No he shouldn't..and you don't know him so stay out of other people's lives..

[@brucellowayne4853]

@@jasonsampson1301 get out of the wrong side of bed today Jason?

[@Arkygator]

The Verdi guy is criticizing Vagner for being pompous while being extremely pompous in the way he argues.

[@Yaarbiriah]

loved it! Thanks, terrific show and S.F. enjoyed as always. Staying with Verdi, and NOT because of the antisemitism issues. Verdi delights and enchants me.

[@j.langer5949]

Antisemitism is not an issue, but a reaction.

[@ralfrath699]

Who is Verdi? I am Beethoven and I am an expert and my opinion is Verdi is a very very good italain composer like all the others - very very good! And who is Wagner? In my opinion Wagner has changed music for ever!

[@ricardobauer8335]

As some other comments mention, the fact that Wagner wrote his own libretti has a huge impact on this question. Also the way Wagner uses his Leitmotive is just beyond impressive. In Parsifal, every emotion, every thought, every idea has its own motif, or theme, and more than that, they interact with each other in an incredibly complex way. E.g. the grail and the spear, which both have a individual short ascending melody, and at the end, when they're united, come together to form a larger ascending melody that in a way fulfills the piece, thematically as well as musically. I also find it quite ironic how it was argued for Verdi that his ouvertures are not just snippets of the opera, but for some of his works this is exactly the case (e.g. Nabucco, which is a magnificent opera by the way, where we even get to hear the melody of Va Pensiero in the ouverture). Wagner's ouvertures on the other hand are their own pieces of work. They use the Leitmotive from the objects and emotions in the opera to "set the scene" of the piece and almost in a way give the backstory, without a single word sung. Again, I think Parsifal is a great example, where the Leitmotives appear in the ouverture to recount how Amfortas lost the spear and got his injury after being seduced by Kundry. Also in the ouverture to the second act, you can hear the fight music of Parsifal fighting his way up to Klingsor's evil castle. Still a very good case presented by Philip Hensher! Especially the statement that because Wagner was an ethically way more questionable person than Verdi, he could sympathize with the villains much better and create such incredibly complex antagonists really blew my mind and got me thinking.

[@parkerstevinsson6724]

I'm not so sure about the word "debate" except to draw one's attention. Both Verdi and Wagner are big-time winners within the musical world. One would have to say ultimately though that the influence of Wagner forever changed they way classical music evolved. His work comes down today in how movies are scored, how plays are produced, how Broadway works and many. many composers use his thought processes even unconsciously. I am not one could say that for Verdi. In terms of the individual personality, I think Verdi would win a debate within the realm of Western European ethics.

[@ElSmusso]

Lohengrin & Rigoletto would be my suggestions to first listeners

[@PrinsTan]

Tristan

[@MrXtuba]

PrinsTan Tristan is too difficult to grasp for first time listeners

[@rocketrob68]

The moment I heard the opening to Das Rheingold 30 years ago I fell in love 😊 I went to a symphonic performance of the ring in '98 and the look on Bernard Haitink's face seeing me in the front row with a mohican was priceless 😂

[@tonirose6776]

How fantastically funny!!

[@shostakovich99]

All this talk about Verdi being a novelist glossed over the fact Wagner wrote his own libretti but Verdi didn't. That doesn't matter to the viewer, but it matters if you're assessing them as novelists or artists.

[@kitheskethharvey3576]

Verdi had Shakespeare.

[@pablosantander5739]

Every composer was important for the identity for their countries in the way of an unification, one inspired in the identification with the regular ppl, the mirro for all the italians, the other in the ideals, besides musical style, Wagner created Wanfreid, the multimedia state, a new mytology, in musical advances, he touched the future of the 20th century with Tannhauser and the begining of Tristan and Isolde.

[@ZombifiedGod]

1:47:15 gets me every time. incredible

[@theurbangentry]

Amazing. Even though I am named after a Wagner Opera and I love his music... I cant betray my paisano Verdi.... Nothing moves me like Verdi.

[@nightwish1000]

your name is Parsifal?^^

[@FrankEdavidson]

@@nightwish1000 It's not Isolde.

[@nightwish1000]

@@FrankEdavidson i thought that it might be Tannhäuser^^

[@hertzair1186]

Tristen

[@claudiopeli2774]

PAESANO, non 'paisano'.

[@BirdArvid]

Desdemona; such a good choice! If a Martian suddenly came walking down the street and said: Excuse me Sir; I struggle with the human concept of Innocence: what is it, what does it mean?" I'd say go listen to Desdemona's Willow Song and especially the Ave Maria. It's all in there. I think it's true to say that Verdi was a true Humanist in practice; Wagner was one in spirit, in theory. I couldn't choose between the two; impossible! I'd feel as though I'd broken my own heart if I chose to discard Verdi, but we'd surely have no Alban Berg without Wagner; and that would be the truly great loss.. Thankfully, no choice need be made!

[@Elizabeth5291]

Wagner vs. Verdi,why?It's a matter of preference,I prefer Verdi,but Wagner was unique.

[@nejuw]

because its fun

[@EM-qx3hx]

Learning opportunity

[@djgualtiermaldeCO]

Watching again this 10 years later i see how wrong was Lebrecht in his arguments and exposed constantly...i jumped more than once with more than one of his assertions...i should add that Verdi was like Spielberg but Wagner was Kubrick... that's a simple way to explain both composers to people not familiar with them

[@brucellowayne4853]

The Verdi guy's jokes at the start of his speech.. awkward. Leaving a gap for no one laughing

[@jasonsampson1301]

No it didn't..why don't u go up there and do somethin..loser

[@tritonusseitan6601]

Loved the discussion, loved the performances more.

[@lauracipollone294]

I'm sorry but Tomlinson is just awful here

[@bodnotbod]

I've only just started watching but it seems odd to have Fry in the chair: he's a HUGE Wagner advocate and has done a programme about him.

[@notrueflagshere198]

That was fun. It is "apples and oranges," but I'm with Wagner. Verdi might be the greatest at what he did, but Wagner is the only Wagner.

[@daviddemar8749]

Be advised that as much as I love mr. Fry (a great deal) it's really unfair to have him as the moderator of this debate bc he has been an unabashed lover of Wagner's music since the age of 13 I recommend that you view the absolutely amazing documentary Wagner and Me( the me in the title being mr. Fry) I myself am not a Wagner fan but the documentary is soooooooo excellent and mr. Fry is soooooooo wonderful in it that he almost made a convert out of me.....almost. I grudgingly admire Tristan and Isolde. I remain still a puccini-ite

[@tonirose6776]

As do I.

[@laurabenamots8717]

1. the fact that there are other anti-semites is irrelevant! 2. Stephen Fry's inability to be the arbiter rather than advocate is extremely disappointing... badly done.

[@adig2414]

The fact that wagner didn't like Jews was itself irrelevant.

[@newadam573]

This isn't a debate over who's music is more accomplished but over which composer was more tolerant.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

They are playing Verdi, yet the orchestra uses a Tuba instead of a Cimbasso? Heathens! Other than that I think it's not fair to try to prove your point about Verdi's greatness by picking as musical example the most sublime 15 minutes of music he has ever written. ;) His last three operas are a league of their own and to anyone who listens to them first his earlier works will hold many a dissapointment in store.

[@leecooper4213]

Other comments posted here are correct, of course - this may seem to be downright "silly", as an out-and-out competition. But I don't think it was meant to be a REAL competition. It's simply a "fun" type of format in which they can discuss each composer & share a few facts about each one during this 200th Anniversary celebration....Facts that people may not know about Verdi & Wagner. If there's any debate about this being meant to be FUN, take a look at Stephen's socks. LOL.... (Love you, Stephen!) ;-)

[@shosha1878]

I love both in theirs total different worlds. Opera vs. Musical Drama.

[@stephenschimmel463]

I....LOOOOOOVE both of them.

[@Edeskenney]

They are both wonderful, I will always love them both. I can listen to Verdi and be very moved even to tears and then walk away and be very satisfied. Wagner on the other hand is different, you can listen to Wagner but forget walking away, his music becomes part of your DNA, a lifetime of being in love.

[@burtcollins239]

Give me Verdi.. Tunes you can remember. Glorious for the voice and orchestra.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

Funny, considering that the entire Ring is constructed around memorable motifs that help you understand what is going on. If they were not memorable, the whole thing had no point. ;)

[@bayreuth79]

I have to say that as a musician I cannot see how Verdi can even be considered to be on the same level as Wagner. Wagner is clearly one of the very greatest composers who has ever lived, a rival to Mozart and Beethoven. Verdi was great but not that great.

[@WBradJazz]

I wish we had such an intelligent discussion in the U.S.

[@HojotohoWhereverIGo]

We’d never. American debate is “this is my thesis and I support it with points A, B, and C,” and the response is just something vaguely related to one phrase used in point C.

[@azitakheradvar544]

Thank you!!!!! What an ending!!!!

[@ZygimantasA]

I just simply prefer Italian operas, so I am biased :P But Wagner is amazing too :)

[@Anton10or]

The idea of this debate seems silly as you cannot compare apples to oranges, but the populist argument I believe would have swung the other way had the Verdi selections played and sung, been from La Traviata, Rigoletto, or Il Trovatore. I think Verdi wrote for the people, Wagner for himself, or at least to his ideals. I remember years ago when this same debate raged over Bach and Händel. Bach wrote for God (Pia Jesu) Händel for the people. Yet certainly the most recognized music of the Church belongs to Händel, Messiah. It is a futile argument, but I learned a great deal from listening to these two learned men talk and yes teach.

[@ricardobauer8335]

If someone asked me what I would imagine Wotan to look like, I would say like Sir John Tomlinson.

[@TimothyJonSarris]

Verdi arrives at his objective in half time that it takes Wagner. This is not a judgment on whose music is better or worse. It is simply a fact.

[@Will-zy3ru]

Verdi seems like a man of higher character. But I think Wagner's music is more interesting.

[@littlekiwi9724]

I'm not a fan of opera, so my rule of thumb is: If Maria Callas recorded it, it's worth listening to... Therefore Verdi

[@Daniela-pr7rz]

She also did Wagner, ....before Verdi.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@Daniela-pr7rz She sang Wagner's Liebestod but in Italian

[@Daniela-pr7rz]

@@kaloarepo288 She did Brunhilde and Kundry as well.

[@womenfrom0202]

I’ve got a photo of Verdi’s statue in Verona in my living room, that enough said

[@garylysaght1579]

All over in one word: Parsifal

[@uffo03]

Grazie per questa splendida serata!

[@lilliedoubleyou3865]

I wonder what a defense of Verdi would sound like without resorting to cliches and appealing to modern political sensibilities. "Oh, Nabuco is sort of nationalist, but in a good way, because it's not actually nationalist, because nationalism is bad, something-something marginalized something-something, inane emotional appeals. Poor Verdi deserves better. - a disgruntled Puccini fan, wondering why her guy is being completely left out

[@mimamo]

Verdi created beauty, Wagner raw emotion. I enjoy listening to Verdi, but I completely lose myself in Wagner.

[@minui8758]

100% agree

[@LazlosPlane]

Love Wagner, but Verdi is. . . after all, Verdi.

[@DylanRoth1860]

A reassuring conclusion. That interminable Wop sentimentalist isn't fit to wipe Herr Wagner's elegant posterior, IMO. And what a sham of an argument from the opposition. Verdi likes jews and poor people so vote for him...good grief. Was he serious with that?

[@Operafreak9]

I noticed this too. That insipis chorus from Nabucco was to make Verdi's case? That chorus is one of the most torturous things ever written. Surely, he deserved better than this. But Verdi is nowhere in Wagner's league, but who is?

[@starlove7474]

NO one uses the word WOP anymore, and you sir, Sam Little are very little!

[@shabirmagami146]

Wow!!! Sublime music....great debate...

[@boyleso]

Wagner wrote some wonderful orchestral music and his operas work well as a whole. You could also argue that the Ring cycle is the forerunner of the "concept" album. Pity he couldn't write for the voice as well as he did for the orchestra. Consequently I'm a Verdian as he manages drama and melody, orchestra and voice with equal brilliance.

[@jamorains]

Wow, Norman Labrecht should've worn a shirt that said "Verdi Scum" on it. (He was a pilgrim in an unholy land there...ha)

[@daviddemar8749]

Be advised that tragically the audio sucks

[@omairagamboa7821]

La música de Wagner traspasa todo entendimiento, es sideral...

[@rgeorgiou4454]

The debate was too much concentrated on the personality of the 2 composers rather that in their music. It is known that geniuses escape the normal qualification of a good or decent person. But pompousness transpires throughout Wagner’s music making it horrendous. (But, very enjoyable indeed in Bugs Bunny “Kill the Wabbit” cartoon!!)

[@Waddehaddeduddedaa]

First of Wagner, try Tannhäuser and let the Overture lure you into the world.

[@Walker-ld3dn]

Which raises the larger question: why is John Williams even in the same sentences with Verdi and Wagner? Am I missing something? His frame of reference should be 'composers' of commercials. Seriously, is it me, or do all of his 'scores' sound empty, repetitious, AND similar?

[@henrymichael13]

Schindler’s List?

[@garrysmodsketches]

@@henrymichael13 writing pleasant tunes is not the same thing as being a composer. Anyone who has good ear and basic knowledge of music theory can write a tune and supply chords to it. That does not make you a good composer.

[@henrymichael13]

@@garrysmodsketches Genuinly intrigued and mean no offence, but I feel to define John Williams as someone who just wrote pleasant tunes is grossly unfair and plainly false. I think the main thing Williams can be accused of is at times imitating and borrowing from other composers, but this in itself is a skill to have a feeling for what is appropriate to match the on screen material and themes.

[@garrysmodsketches]

@@henrymichael13 no, borrowing is not an issue at all. For instance, Schubert regularly borrowed directly from Beethoven and Mozart, but he is still a great composer. I'm sorry, but Williams is really just a guy who writes lovely, charming, memorable melodies and arranges them for the orchestra, that's it.

[@FEZASA727]

@@garrysmodsketches then try writing one if you are so educated as you say you are, I bet you can't 🤭

[@Ceciliaseg64]

I grew up listening to Italian Opera, of course, Verdi was a favorite of my father's, but when Wagner came to our lives we immediately experienced something of a different nature; I could understand what was happening in the drama, thanks to his magnificent orchestration. Though I was a child this music moved me in such a way nothing else in life could match to this very day. Wagner, the artist is the real Wagner to me. It's the power of his music that produces emotions that I do not experience with other composers, saved for some brief passages evoke by others

[@llochissimo]

why want an actual italian scholar invited, this bloke knows about it s much as id o about verdi and we stop in middle school

[@minui8758]

Love both deeply. But Wagner managed to conjure an obsession that no other composer did for me, not even greats like Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven as much as I love them very very deeply. I’d have to choose Wagner personally but with huge love and deference to Verdi. I’d also freely acknowledge that Wagner is a man whose music I love and who inspires fascination but whom I wouldn’t want to be friends with

[@atoms-to-atoms]

I rediscovered Brunhilda's awakening (Siegfried Act iii..) on u tube..Having only had an old recording that I passed onto friend at a cross-roads. Gweneth Jones showed how easily she can make a grown man cry..

[@axelharge9540]

Wagner.

[@FEZASA727]

Why don't you go to sniff Coke like every rock fan?

[@openmusic3904]

I have honestly never been a fan of Verdi, I find his music far to 'folksy' and superficial. There are nice little ditties, but it doesn't seem to have much in the way of depth. The first thing that springs to mind when hearing Verdi is those awfully out of tune accordion players who you see busking in European streets. Wagner on the other hand, a composer of enormous depth and influence that still echos through music composed today.

[@kaloarepo288]

But Verdi changed a lot in his later operas like Falstaff and Otello -much less folksy and more through composed.But there is nothing wrong with being folksy and sunny!

[@openmusic3904]

@@kaloarepo288 No, that is a fair point. In fact, I actually enjoy Lully quite a lot because, even though his music was written for nobles, it still retained the strong French folk dance rhythms. I have never been a fan of Italian folk music generally, so that may have something to do with it. There is just something a bit kitsch and schmaltzy about Verdi to my ears.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@openmusic3904 My favorite type of opera is baroque -especially Handel -I could listen to it 24/7 whereas i have to be in the mood for other styles.It's astonishing how in baroque opera so much emotion can be expressed without the need for a vast array of instruments as in Romantic era opera -virtually every emotion known to man without making a huge racket! Listened to a Vivaldi opera the other night Il Farnace -and myself and the announcer were astonished at the emotional power of the orchestration -every inch as powerful as in Wagner -a total revelation.

[@user-ut3zn1en9o]

Verdi, superficial, LOL. I don't know where you've learnt music history to say idiocies like that.

[@openmusic3904]

​@@user-ut3zn1en9o I'm a classically trained musician with a degree in Music...

[@kralle-uw9mc]

so Verdi got his music from the Jews...who would have imagined.

[@Chriswmagic]

1:17:40

[@openmusic3904]

lebrecht's argument was absolutely awful. He hardly discussed the merits of Verdi's music on its own terms at all. He turned his speech into a passe Marxist commentary of the oppressed vs oppressor, discussing everything but the music itself. I don't care about Verdi's upbringing, I don't care if he was a 'moral' upstanding guy, I want to know why his music, on its own terms, is great. You can be a lovely person and terrible composer, conversely, you can be a profound and deeply influential composer and be a less than decent individual, much like Wagner. Lebrecht's spiel was completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[@lilliedoubleyou3865]

+ OpenMusic EXACTLY. Well said. I'm not much of a Verdi fan, but even I think the man deserved better.

[@BatteryExhausted]

So, who would win in a fight?

[@antoniobento9055]

Sorry, Verdi died in 1901, not in 1891, by god.

[@JT29501]

It's complete rubbish what he says about Schumann, he expressed mild anti-semitic thoughts ("Jews are always this way, don't worry about it too much" - paraphrased) specifically about Mendelssohn after an argument with him in a private letter to his wife.. it's quite different to a public essay, saying that Jews are vulgar and cannot create true art (which is what Wagner did). The Mendelssohn Violin Concerto alone disproves that ridiculous statement, let alone String Quartet No. 6, the Piano Concertos, etc etc, and of course Mahler, Bernstein, etc.. But really the statement is so ridiculous we should just laugh at it. Back to Schumann, later he felt so bad about it he composed a whole work using Jewish folk themes as a way to atone for his errors, and he nearly started a fight with Liszt because he insulted Mendelssohn (probably in an anti-semitic way). So to say Schumann was an anti-semite is quite inaccurate. Anyway, enjoy the music! Wagners music is some of the greatest mankind has ever produced. The nasty man who created it is dead, but the great artist can live on as long as people continue to perform and listen to his work.. that is the part of Wagner we should keep alive!

[@teresareixach9538]

Kaufmann Wagner - jonas kaufmann, The Verdi Álbum, Donald Runnicles, etc

[@annle2515]

What a disgusting tendency to associate Wagner with "ride of valkyries" (they start it in the beginning after some Verdi). Why not sailor chorus from Dutchmann or the sublimest and the most touching music in the world, i.e. Symphony in C Major (movement 2). Yes, Verdi was good, but you cannot compare him to Wagner in terms of emotional impact of Wagner's music. If Wagner only wrote "Flying Dutchman" it was enough to make him better than all composers of his time. Wagner's music is so sincere, so sublime, without any shadow of false, without any attempt to flatter the listener. And that's why his music is so dear to so many people all over the world till now - he never tried to be likable and that's why that's no false in his music. And again, why not symphony in C major but ride of valkyries as a first example of Wagner's music? Well, ride of valkiries is good but it was misused so many times --- in these stupid movies et cetera.

[@atoms-to-atoms]

Well done orchestra well done Tomlinson sang Valkyrie beautifully. I know Wagner is good for me, It has healed me many times.

[@HConstantine]

Playing the Verdi that's most like Nicholas Rota seemed like arguing in favor of Wagner; but then, everything that's good in a Bernard Hermann score is directly stolen from Wagner.

[@LazlosPlane]

It always annoys me when great art or artists are judged not by how beautiful their works are but by "how they changed the world." Changed the world? Come on. I highly doubt that the Masses of Josquin Des Pres changed anything about the world, yet they are the pinnacle, the Parnassus of the compositional craft.

[@HedonismCentral]

If they change culture, they change the world - unless culture has no relationship to the rest of the world. And in particular, if the arts have absolutely no relationship to the rest of the world and life. The links may be complex, but great art has always had the power to affect the world around it. In other words, to change the world around it.

[@loge10]

And perhaps Josquin did change the world but we are too far removed from his era to know...

[@LazlosPlane]

And so do we appreciate his music less? Does it have different effect on us? No. It's cliche that has no meaning.

[@FEZASA727]

​@@HedonismCentral Yes, it can change it.... For the worst.

[@adig2414]

​@LazlosPlane very incorrect. Josquin had massive musical influence. But he's not the pinnacle of craft at all. Far too basic and primitive tbh.

[@bazcuda]

So strange to see Wotan wearing a suit and tie 🤣

[@marcolucca6241]

Verdi vs Wagner as Manchester - Liverpool The debate of drunks in a pub

[@miriamkellner3524]

I adore Stephen Fry but I think he was more the Wagner defender than Philip! Not worried bout objectivity as he..

You no longer wait for a verb in a German sentence. This is not Thomas Mann or Robert Musil.