Verdi vs Wagner: the 200th birthday debate with Stephen Fry

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Think opera and you think Verdi. Verdi created some of the most beloved operas of all time, from the romantic tragedy of La traviata and Rigoletto to the Shakespearian dramas of Macbeth, Otello and Falstaff.
Verdi's music transcends the barriers between high and low culture. Many of his arias count among the greatest songs ever written, streaming out of opera houses and into football stadiums and even the charts. Verdi was also the outstanding cultural figure at the heart of the unification of Italy, the musical father of the Risorgimento. Who needs Wagner when Verdi offers such richness?
People who truly appreciate great music, say the Wagnerians. Wagner's music is on an altogether more intellectual sphere. You hum Verdi; you think Wagner. Here is opera, and music, at its epic, definitive height.
To know The Ring is to be fully immersed in opera at its greatest technical brilliance and compositional originality. To appreciate Wagner's music is not to forgive his political views, but to cast them aside in the face of irresistible, unassailable genius.

[@MartyMusic777]

The thing that struck me as funny was when the comment was made "where would John Williams be without Verdi?" ... Have you EVER listened to Star Wars? Williams' scoring is near-identical to a Wagnerian orchestra, and there are explicit quotations from Tristan in there. This is not to say that other influences aren't there (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Richard Strauss in a few spots), but to suggest that Verdi had any influence on film score is just ludicrous. More than anything, Verdi more strongly influenced how musical theatre would develop, especially in how songs were written, and this is an enormous influence and shouldn't be ignored. But let's face facts: any modern orchestral score composer takes at least a couple cues from Wagner, especially due to his development of leitmotifs in concurrence with the action.

[@Djembe908]

John Williams is a lover of Wagners compositions.

[@classicalmusic1175]

You forgot to mention Gustav Holst. Williams drew enormous inspiration for his scores from Holst's Planet Suite.

[@MartyMusic777]

Classical Music11 Well...I'm not saying that he was "directly" quoting Holst's Mars near the beginning of Star Wars Episode IV...but he totally was. I had completely forgotten about Holst, but you're absolutely right.

[@lenircotia]

If I remember correctly, John Williams used the idea of a Leitmotiv as Wagner invented it. Without Wagner's Leitmotiv invention we would not have the Leitmotiv of the Force Theme when Luke looks into the distance of the twin-sunset

[@rickhenderson2970]

Yeah, it's not just Williams. Pretty much all of film scoring descends from Wagner's conception of leitmotifs, and this long precedes Williams. Perhaps the most famous early example is Preminger's Laura.

[@Horichdaslicht1858]

Much as I love Verdi, Wagner plumbs the depths of what it is to be human in all it's nobility, frailty and self-contradiction like no other composer i have ever encountered.

[@oscargordon]

I don't see pompousness in Wagner's music at all. Nobody before or since has been able to plumb the emotional depth or inner turmoil of the characters like Wagner. As was pointed out, even the minor characters are well conceived. Mr. Hensher failed to point out that Wagner did not include box seats in Bayreuth and refused to give any privilege to the aristocracy. He was most definitely a man of the people.

[@mikewalsh6168]

Unless you happened to be Jewish. No box seats for them

[@TheYopogo]

Well... In fact Wagner always had Jewish admirers and Wagner was delighted by this, many of them were his friends and saw his operas performed at Bayreuth. Wagner's extreme antisemitism was appalling but it was political in nature, not a matter of personal prejudice but of ideological commitment.

[@jasonsampson1301]

Shut up

[@tittletattle100]

I'm afraid 'Tristan' makes this a non-contest. 'The death of Isolde' is simply incomparable in its power to move. That would be my introductory piece every time.

[@AlexanderArsov]

Is there something fundamentally wrong with a person who is more moved by Philip's soliloquy, Otello's death, the final duet in "Aida", Violetta's "Addio del passato" or Rigoletto's "Cortigiani"? I should think not.

[@LazlosPlane]

Nonsense.

[@hertzair1186]

And the ‘Tristan Chord’ is forever being musically analyzed.

[@donkeychan491]

Tristan has to be one of the dullest operas ever written, with more shameless repetition than any other.

[@gillianomotoso328]

*When you realize Fry looks like Wagner when he’s shaven*

[@vitogeraci7146]

I thought the exact same thing when I didn’t know Fry until I clicked on this video.

[@mikeinkc]

Fry is Jewish, watch his documentary Wagner and Me, he wrestles with Wagner's anti-semitism, and his love of his music. It is well done, and thought provoking.

[@johnjones6601]

His citation of Wagner's anti-semitism should have no bearing on the task at hand.

[@pmrossetti1]

Fry's face when Verdi guy is talking cracks me up.:)

[@WBradJazz]

I wish we had such an intelligent discussion in the U.S.

[@bingbongtoysKY]

what a BLAST!!! I love both of them- of course! this is such a good time! thank you,

[@ollenyren9842]

Absolutely one of the best shows I've ever watched, and I've gone back to it over and over again, and I get more and more convinced of Wagner's brilliance every time. The way that it is broken down and explained in detail in 1:00:22 is simply astounding and pedagogically superb!

[@karlavonhuben1381]

When Lebrecht called Desdemona "all bling and handbags" I wanted to kick him. I found some of his statements close to racism, and very offensive, and his "jokes" amused no one. Verdi deserved a better champion.

[@TheYopogo]

I'm personally disposed to agreeing with the Wagnerian side of the argument here, and that side is argued much better in this debate; but I feel I must say: Verdi is a much better composer than this debate makes it seem. People are drawn to the instantly memorable, beautiful, singable melodies which are everywhere in his work, and he undoubtedly had a great talent for them, but this is nothing like the be all and end all of his value. Verdi's music is profound and magnificent and utterly serious. The similarities his music has with the melodramatic vocal flourishes and sloppy orchestration which sometimes appear in Italian opera are cosmetic only. His music is utterly refined and meticulously balanced and it will plumb the depths of your soul every bit as much as Wagner can, if you have only the ears to listen and the heart to feel.

[@GazmendCeno]

That is true. Yet, even if better areas were offered, still you can't go against W.

[@ShaneyElderberry]

The moments of fruitless rebuttal were a desperate attempt to scorn the artist and ignore the works of art - the true measure of this event. It's a pity that Verdi's music was not examined and explained as well as Wagner's was. I'm one of Wagner's rapturously devoted fans, but Verdi deserved a much better presentation.

[@madsgram8437]

What I found in Verdi was an elegance , compassion and sensistivity unmatched. But I must say, that just the prelude to Tristan and Isolde filled me with a prism of fellings. Clairty, confussion, joy, dread, desire, a sense of lightness and the same time a glimpse of a dawning abyss. And that was just the prelude.

[@haydenbarnes5110]

Gogh once said (and I'm paraphrasing) that there has been no one who had done for his art [painting] as had Wagner done for composing.

[@tritonusseitan6601]

Loved the discussion, loved the performances more.

[@lauracipollone294]

I'm sorry but Tomlinson is just awful here

[@pensiring7112]

Wagner loves power? The whole ring is about rejecting power and greed in favour of love, it literally shows how greed and lust for power and laws and contracts and all that which symbolizes and manifests power lead to the destruction of the whole world, as in the end, Valhalla burns down and the Rhine floods the rest of the world... Wotan gets his power by cutting of a branch of the world tree, and writing his law in runes on it, but that kills the world tree and poisons the spring flowing beneath it. The whole world slowly gets corrupted because of this act. The speaker obviously confuses the canvas (gods, princes) with the words written on it.

[@elainemurray8994]

#

What a pleasure to hear intelligent people talk (and in complete sentences)

[@hayleys1260]

This is fun, because now I know a bit more than I did before, but music debates are really impossible, it's purely a matter of taste.

[@jacac]

The BBC documentary on Verdi made a much better case for the composer than this guy. The Wagner advocate did a great work, on the other side.

[@hochang927]

both were great opera composers no matter what.

[@uffo03]

Grazie per questa splendida serata!

[@azitakheradvar544]

Thank you!!!!! What an ending!!!!

[@philiproseel3506]

A fan of both composers, but I do believe Wagner was more influential. Rather difficult to pick a "winner". They are both giants in opera. They both feature very early in my appreciation of music, listening to old Caruso records of Verdi with my mother, and discovering Wagner's Tannhauser a few years later.

[@julianburgess6947]

Wagner was more influential but Verdi has given more pleasure, at least to me.

[@philiproseel3506]

@@julianburgess6947 For me, I would say they were both equally influential, but at different times of my life.

[@oscargordon]

No matter how much I enjoy Verdi operas, if Verdi had never lived, I doubt the future of music would have been altered in any way, whereas Wagner shook music to its core.

[@martinstremlow2997]

What a wonderful discussion of three brilliant connoisseurs. And John Tomlinsom is just am amazing highlight.!

[@rocketrob68]

The moment I heard the opening to Das Rheingold 30 years ago I fell in love 😊 I went to a symphonic performance of the ring in '98 and the look on Bernard Haitink's face seeing me in the front row with a mohican was priceless 😂

[@tonirose6776]

How fantastically funny!!

[@ElSmusso]

Lohengrin & Rigoletto would be my suggestions to first listeners

[@PrinsTan]

Tristan

[@MrXtuba]

PrinsTan Tristan is too difficult to grasp for first time listeners

[@menukjau]

This is a very interesting conversation, sounds fun. However, what's the point of comparing different composers, they were all fantastic in their own right. There are no bad operas, it's your personal taste. I enjoy both Wagner and Verdi as well as other operatic composers such as Donizetti, Bellini and Messenet.

[@tonirose6776]

Massenet, and Puccini.

[@erandeser5830]

Verdi was the perfection of a past era, romantics and esthetics. Wagner traces back to Beethoven, he is expression, he opened new fields where Mahler, Stravinsky and many others rooted their music.

[@donkeychan491]

Stravinsky despised Wagner's music and adored Verdi's. He considered Rigoletto and Falstaff the two greatest operas ever written.

[@erandeser5830]

@@donkeychan491 Stravinsky had jewish reasons to despise Wagner. And for Rigoletto, imo he was right.

[@donkeychan491]

@@erandeser5830Stravinsky was himself an antisemite, so that certainly wasn't the reason he disliked Wagner: he just found Wagner's music turgid, overwrought, and repetitive: which it is. Wagner certainly opened new fields for exploration - but not for Stravinsky who, like Verdi, reinvented traditional forms in their own distinct ways.

[@borisvandruff7532]

I love Verdi, but Lebrecht’s tactics are disgusting here. “Verdi is good because he’s not anti-Semitic. Wagner is bad because he’s anti-Semitic.” There are much better metrics for gauging the genius of a composer.

[@WTF3585]

Well he was also a mysoginist and a racialist :/

[@aydenpostigo2910]

Wagner rules but I like Verdi

[@beurksman]

I was afraid that this is what would happen

[@WTF3585]

@Kookman yeah well thanks cap obvious I'm not thaaaaaaat thick hahaha

[@Rayve1609]

Wagner had his faults, but he was a great composer. One has only to listen to the Entry of the gods into Valhalla. And i am not so much with the pagan or germanian or aryan something bullshit. I just like a good piece of music, and i can recognize it, when it gets to me. Compared (and thats something of the point in this debate) to Wagner, Verdi is a teenager, who's just not settled, who makes quite a mess of everything, its all a bit loud and fast and untidy.

[@ricardobauer8335]

As some other comments mention, the fact that Wagner wrote his own libretti has a huge impact on this question. Also the way Wagner uses his Leitmotive is just beyond impressive. In Parsifal, every emotion, every thought, every idea has its own motif, or theme, and more than that, they interact with each other in an incredibly complex way. E.g. the grail and the spear, which both have a individual short ascending melody, and at the end, when they're united, come together to form a larger ascending melody that in a way fulfills the piece, thematically as well as musically. I also find it quite ironic how it was argued for Verdi that his ouvertures are not just snippets of the opera, but for some of his works this is exactly the case (e.g. Nabucco, which is a magnificent opera by the way, where we even get to hear the melody of Va Pensiero in the ouverture). Wagner's ouvertures on the other hand are their own pieces of work. They use the Leitmotive from the objects and emotions in the opera to "set the scene" of the piece and almost in a way give the backstory, without a single word sung. Again, I think Parsifal is a great example, where the Leitmotives appear in the ouverture to recount how Amfortas lost the spear and got his injury after being seduced by Kundry. Also in the ouverture to the second act, you can hear the fight music of Parsifal fighting his way up to Klingsor's evil castle. Still a very good case presented by Philip Hensher! Especially the statement that because Wagner was an ethically way more questionable person than Verdi, he could sympathize with the villains much better and create such incredibly complex antagonists really blew my mind and got me thinking.

[@shosha1878]

I love both in theirs total different worlds. Opera vs. Musical Drama.

[@OldSchopenhauer]

I honestly think the Verdi advocate just had a grudge against Wagner for being an antisemite. How else can he extol Mahler, and then downplay Wagner's influence?

[@MrThomasdichmont]

Roger Scruton should be here!

[@Operafreak9]

Scruton would have added so much. He gets Wagner.

[@jasonsampson1301]

No he shouldn't..and you don't know him so stay out of other people's lives..

[@brucellowayne4853]

@@jasonsampson1301 get out of the wrong side of bed today Jason?

[@burtcollins239]

Give me Verdi.. Tunes you can remember. Glorious for the voice and orchestra.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

Funny, considering that the entire Ring is constructed around memorable motifs that help you understand what is going on. If they were not memorable, the whole thing had no point. ;)

[@SatchmoSings]

Very good point; thank you.

[@newadam573]

This isn't a debate over who's music is more accomplished but over which composer was more tolerant.

[@brucellowayne4853]

The Verdi guy's jokes at the start of his speech.. awkward. Leaving a gap for no one laughing

[@jasonsampson1301]

No it didn't..why don't u go up there and do somethin..loser

[@laurabenamots8717]

1. the fact that there are other anti-semites is irrelevant! 2. Stephen Fry's inability to be the arbiter rather than advocate is extremely disappointing... badly done.

[@womenfrom0202]

I’ve got a photo of Verdi’s statue in Verona in my living room, that enough said

[@pablosantander5739]

Every composer was important for the identity for their countries in the way of an unification, one inspired in the identification with the regular ppl, the mirro for all the italians, the other in the ideals, besides musical style, Wagner created Wanfreid, the multimedia state, a new mytology, in musical advances, he touched the future of the 20th century with Tannhauser and the begining of Tristan and Isolde.

[@ralfrath699]

Who is Verdi? I am Beethoven and I am an expert and my opinion is Verdi is a very very good italain composer like all the others - very very good! And who is Wagner? In my opinion Wagner has changed music for ever!

[@djgualtiermaldeCO]

Watching again this 10 years later i see how wrong was Lebrecht in his arguments and exposed constantly...i jumped more than once with more than one of his assertions...i should add that Verdi was like Spielberg but Wagner was Kubrick... that's a simple way to explain both composers to people not familiar with them

[@shabirmagami146]

Wow!!! Sublime music....great debate...

[@shostakovich99]

All this talk about Verdi being a novelist glossed over the fact Wagner wrote his own libretti but Verdi didn't. That doesn't matter to the viewer, but it matters if you're assessing them as novelists or artists.

[@kitheskethharvey3576]

Verdi had Shakespeare.

[@leecooper4213]

Other comments posted here are correct, of course - this may seem to be downright "silly", as an out-and-out competition. But I don't think it was meant to be a REAL competition. It's simply a "fun" type of format in which they can discuss each composer & share a few facts about each one during this 200th Anniversary celebration....Facts that people may not know about Verdi & Wagner. If there's any debate about this being meant to be FUN, take a look at Stephen's socks. LOL.... (Love you, Stephen!) ;-)

[@bodnotbod]

I've only just started watching but it seems odd to have Fry in the chair: he's a HUGE Wagner advocate and has done a programme about him.

[@jamorains]

Wow, Norman Labrecht should've worn a shirt that said "Verdi Scum" on it. (He was a pilgrim in an unholy land there...ha)

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

They are playing Verdi, yet the orchestra uses a Tuba instead of a Cimbasso? Heathens! Other than that I think it's not fair to try to prove your point about Verdi's greatness by picking as musical example the most sublime 15 minutes of music he has ever written. ;) His last three operas are a league of their own and to anyone who listens to them first his earlier works will hold many a dissapointment in store.

[@Yaarbiriah]

loved it! Thanks, terrific show and S.F. enjoyed as always. Staying with Verdi, and NOT because of the antisemitism issues. Verdi delights and enchants me.

[@j.langer5949]

Antisemitism is not an issue, but a reaction.

[@danglybit1]

I rediscovered Brunhilda's awakening (Siegfried Act iii..) on u tube..Having only had an old recording that I passed onto friend at a cross-roads. Gweneth Jones showed how easily she can make a grown man cry..

[@notrueflagshere198]

That was fun. It is "apples and oranges," but I'm with Wagner. Verdi might be the greatest at what he did, but Wagner is the only Wagner.

[@theurbangentry]

Amazing. Even though I am named after a Wagner Opera and I love his music... I cant betray my paisano Verdi.... Nothing moves me like Verdi.

[@nightwish1000]

your name is Parsifal?^^

[@FrankEdavidson]

@@nightwish1000 It's not Isolde.

[@nightwish1000]

@@FrankEdavidson i thought that it might be Tannhäuser^^

[@hertzair1186]

Tristen

[@claudiopeli2774]

PAESANO, non 'paisano'.

[@daviddemar8749]

Be advised that tragically the audio sucks

[@ZombifiedGod]

1:47:15 gets me every time. incredible

[@parkerstevinsson6724]

I'm not so sure about the word "debate" except to draw one's attention. Both Verdi and Wagner are big-time winners within the musical world. One would have to say ultimately though that the influence of Wagner forever changed they way classical music evolved. His work comes down today in how movies are scored, how plays are produced, how Broadway works and many. many composers use his thought processes even unconsciously. I am not one could say that for Verdi. In terms of the individual personality, I think Verdi would win a debate within the realm of Western European ethics.

[@daviddemar8749]

Be advised that as much as I love mr. Fry (a great deal) it's really unfair to have him as the moderator of this debate bc he has been an unabashed lover of Wagner's music since the age of 13 I recommend that you view the absolutely amazing documentary Wagner and Me( the me in the title being mr. Fry) I myself am not a Wagner fan but the documentary is soooooooo excellent and mr. Fry is soooooooo wonderful in it that he almost made a convert out of me.....almost. I grudgingly admire Tristan and Isolde. I remain still a puccini-ite

[@tonirose6776]

As do I.

[@Edeskenney]

They are both wonderful, I will always love them both. I can listen to Verdi and be very moved even to tears and then walk away and be very satisfied. Wagner on the other hand is different, you can listen to Wagner but forget walking away, his music becomes part of your DNA, a lifetime of being in love.

[@BatteryExhausted]

So, who would win in a fight?

[@littlekiwi9724]

I'm not a fan of opera, so my rule of thumb is: If Maria Callas recorded it, it's worth listening to... Therefore Verdi

[@Daniela-pr7rz]

She also did Wagner, ....before Verdi.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@Daniela-pr7rz She sang Wagner's Liebestod but in Italian

[@Daniela-pr7rz]

@@kaloarepo288 She did Brunhilde and Kundry as well.

[@ricardobauer8335]

If someone asked me what I would imagine Wotan to look like, I would say like Sir John Tomlinson.

[@BirdArvid]

Desdemona; such a good choice! If a Martian suddenly came walking down the street and said: Excuse me Sir; I struggle with the human concept of Innocence: what is it, what does it mean?" I'd say go listen to Desdemona's Willow Song and especially the Ave Maria. It's all in there. I think it's true to say that Verdi was a true Humanist in practice; Wagner was one in spirit, in theory. I couldn't choose between the two; impossible! I'd feel as though I'd broken my own heart if I chose to discard Verdi, but we'd surely have no Alban Berg without Wagner; and that would be the truly great loss.. Thankfully, no choice need be made!

[@deepthymukundan5358]

What's with the red silk in the background 🙂

[@omairagamboa7821]

La música de Wagner traspasa todo entendimiento, es sideral...

[@sesqui1rosso]

magnifico.

[@stephenschimmel463]

I....LOOOOOOVE both of them.

[@Waddehaddeduddedaa]

First of Wagner, try Tannhäuser and let the Overture lure you into the world.

[@Anton10or]

The idea of this debate seems silly as you cannot compare apples to oranges, but the populist argument I believe would have swung the other way had the Verdi selections played and sung, been from La Traviata, Rigoletto, or Il Trovatore. I think Verdi wrote for the people, Wagner for himself, or at least to his ideals. I remember years ago when this same debate raged over Bach and Händel. Bach wrote for God (Pia Jesu) Händel for the people. Yet certainly the most recognized music of the Church belongs to Händel, Messiah. It is a futile argument, but I learned a great deal from listening to these two learned men talk and yes teach.

[@TimothyJonSarris]

Verdi arrives at his objective in half time that it takes Wagner. This is not a judgment on whose music is better or worse. It is simply a fact.

You no longer wait for a verb in a German sentence. This is not Thomas Mann or Robert Musil.

[@rgeorgiou4454]

The debate was too much concentrated on the personality of the 2 composers rather that in their music. It is known that geniuses escape the normal qualification of a good or decent person. But pompousness transpires throughout Wagner’s music making it horrendous. (But, very enjoyable indeed in Bugs Bunny “Kill the Wabbit” cartoon!!)

[@xrmk--]

Bravo Walton! 👏👏👏 Magnificent Performance.

[@graeme011]

Although I wasn't actually there and able to vote, nevertheless I felt that I was there amongst the audience; and I found the whole session to be extremely entertaining and enthralling. What beautiful performances - both of Verdi and of Wagner! I hope that they opened the bar at 8 pm, to give everyone a chance for further debate, as to which composer was the greatest. I'm looking forward to the next debate, but hoping also that populist light-weights like that Joe Green fellow won't be on the agenda again!

[@keatsgipsy9991]

💫 Marvellous

[@conforzo]

Verdi had a simpler vision of music. Wagner was way more grand. Two different ways, your personality will determine which one you prefer.

[@scotchwhisky6094]

I have a taste for the sense of grand in music. My top 3 composers are Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Wagner

[@garylysaght1579]

All over in one word: Parsifal

[@Will-zy3ru]

Verdi seems like a man of higher character. But I think Wagner's music is more interesting.

[@lilliedoubleyou3865]

I wonder what a defense of Verdi would sound like without resorting to cliches and appealing to modern political sensibilities. "Oh, Nabuco is sort of nationalist, but in a good way, because it's not actually nationalist, because nationalism is bad, something-something marginalized something-something, inane emotional appeals. Poor Verdi deserves better. - a disgruntled Puccini fan, wondering why her guy is being completely left out

[@llochissimo]

why want an actual italian scholar invited, this bloke knows about it s much as id o about verdi and we stop in middle school

[@llochissimo]

i find it facinating that they think it was not done on purpose, for us its common knowledge

[@HConstantine]

Playing the Verdi that's most like Nicholas Rota seemed like arguing in favor of Wagner; but then, everything that's good in a Bernard Hermann score is directly stolen from Wagner.

[@paolograndinetti7609]

per favore sottotitoli in Italiano

[@ZygimantasA]

I just simply prefer Italian operas, so I am biased :P But Wagner is amazing too :)

[@sigalius]

Summary - Verdi side: "Poor Jews. Wagner was not a nice man. I don't like him personally, and neither should you. Verdi wrote unaffected by the expectations of critics, who asked "Why not be more like Wagner?" Verdi captured the Italian spirit, but was never a nasty nationalist. You should like Verdi because he wrote a lot, was humble, and was a populist. Verdi is inclusive, Wagner is exclusive and elitist. No wonder he's so popular." Wagner side: "A good man can be a bad composer, as a bad man can be a good composer. Let's talk about the music and the genius of the work. Wagner penetrates with great insight into the human psyche. Wagner weaves complexity and innovation, using myths and gods, with the goal of encapsulating very human conditions. The epitome of his innovation is the Tristan chord, which serves as the pinnacle of 19th century music. The power of his work is gripping and transformative. Wagner is maddeningly captivating." I might add two things. 1. As other commentators have noted, the bit about Verdi and John Williams is astonishing, considering how many Wagnerian techniques John Williams uses. There's no equivocation. He argues for influence by exposure at the end, but the techniques and actual works on paper speak for themselves. There's nothing unequivocally identifiable of Verdi in John Williams. Of Wagner, the answer is easy if you just look at the structures and patterns. 2. Comparing the performance frequency of Verdi and Wagner is truly an improper comparison, because, very simply, Wagner's operas are extremely demanding (both production-wise and physically to the singers), whereas Verdi's operas (much like most composers) are sing-songy and relatively tame.

[@rickhenderson2970]

Yes, the Verdi side argued badly, and the shame of it is that Verdi is not embarrassed by Wagner either musically or as a musical-dramatist. As I briefly note above in my reply to Alexander Hay-Whitton, there's far more to Verdi than his accessible melodiousness. I've always thought the Verdi/Wagner comparison is not unlike the Shakespeare/Milton comparison. The difference between profoundly human artists vs profoundly spiritual artists. In a way, Meistersinger was Wagner trying to be Verdi and Aida was Verdi trying to be Wagner; as if Milton had tried to write The Tempest and Shakespeare had tried to write Paradise Lost. Do I feel Wagner is better? Yes. I actually feel his only challenge is Mozart rather than Verdi--after Tristan I feel the three greatest operas are Figaro, Don G, and Cosi. Still, I love Verdi and a much a better case can be made than was made here.

[@user-ut3zn1en9o]

Verdi operas aren't tame.

[@angelloperez7273]

Communist detected opinion rejected.

[@Walker-ld3dn]

Which raises the larger question: why is John Williams even in the same sentences with Verdi and Wagner? Am I missing something? His frame of reference should be 'composers' of commercials. Seriously, is it me, or do all of his 'scores' sound empty, repetitious, AND similar?

[@henrymichael13]

Schindler’s List?

[@garrysmodsketches]

@@henrymichael13 writing pleasant tunes is not the same thing as being a composer. Anyone who has good ear and basic knowledge of music theory can write a tune and supply chords to it. That does not make you a good composer.

[@henrymichael13]

@@garrysmodsketches Genuinly intrigued and mean no offence, but I feel to define John Williams as someone who just wrote pleasant tunes is grossly unfair and plainly false. I think the main thing Williams can be accused of is at times imitating and borrowing from other composers, but this in itself is a skill to have a feeling for what is appropriate to match the on screen material and themes.

[@garrysmodsketches]

@@henrymichael13 no, borrowing is not an issue at all. For instance, Schubert regularly borrowed directly from Beethoven and Mozart, but he is still a great composer. I'm sorry, but Williams is really just a guy who writes lovely, charming, memorable melodies and arranges them for the orchestra, that's it.

[@angelloperez7273]

@@garrysmodsketches then try writing one if you are so educated as you say you are, I bet you can't 🤭

[@bazcuda]

So strange to see Wotan wearing a suit and tie 🤣

[@paolograndinetti7609]

Prima o poi farò un commento. Per ora ascolto con molto interesse questo colto dibattito. Avendo avuto,il sottoscritto, un rapporto d'ascolto intimo, con entrambi , assicuro che il mio giudizio sarà definitivo ponendo fine a questa antinomia.

[@Chriswmagic]

1:17:40

[@Elizabeth5291]

Wagner vs. Verdi,why?It's a matter of preference,I prefer Verdi,but Wagner was unique.

[@nejuw]

because its fun

[@EM-qx3hx]

Learning opportunity

[@aquama444]

What are the exact movements performed can anyone tell me?

[@kiantamar]

They showed the name of the piece at the beginning of each performance. I remember the Verdi's the Willow song Wagner's Wotan's Farewell from Die Walküre and the opening of Tristan und Isolde Act 1.

[@thedoc-eh7yj]

@@kiantamar and the overture to La Forza del Destino

[@marcolucca6241]

Verdi vs Wagner as Manchester - Liverpool The debate of drunks in a pub

[@tarikivankovic5790]

The Fry's frozen, tence, awaiting hand gesture during the speech of Wagner's advocate reveals whom he appreciates more.

[@ericdew2021]

+Tarik Ivankovic Fry is a Wagnerian, through and through.

[@marblegrimes7010]

Tarik really the fact that Fry made a 1.5 hour doc which was basically a love letter to R Wagner that didn't give it away? : )

[@petatap]

Vi piace di più la pesca o la pera?

[@shostakovich99]

Fry makes a risky comment on Wagner's anti-Semitism ... I think the audience looked skeptical ...

[@ShaneyElderberry]

If every major artist’s letters could be collected together, you would certainly find many bigoted references to all sorts of people in the past. Virtually no one would be safe in the past, since they would find someone to complain about in a prejudiced way.

[@Ceciliaseg64]

I grew up listening to Italian Opera, of course, Verdi was a favorite of my father's, but when Wagner came to our lives we immediately experienced something of a different nature; I could understand what was happening in the drama, thanks to his magnificent orchestration. Though I was a child this music moved me in such a way nothing else in life could match to this very day. Wagner, the artist is the real Wagner to me. It's the power of his music that produces emotions that I do not experience with other composers, saved for some brief passages evoke by others

[@boyleso]

Wagner wrote some wonderful orchestral music and his operas work well as a whole. You could also argue that the Ring cycle is the forerunner of the "concept" album. Pity he couldn't write for the voice as well as he did for the orchestra. Consequently I'm a Verdian as he manages drama and melody, orchestra and voice with equal brilliance.

[@teresareixach9538]

Kaufmann Wagner - jonas kaufmann, The Verdi Álbum, Donald Runnicles, etc

[@Ketston]

Why do people always have to choose? Enjoy that music and shut up!

[@MacroPheliac]

Great works from both, I think art is too subjective to be debated effectively. While one can argue technicality and complexity and attempt to establish things as black-and-white...art is still subjective and received differently by all. Nevertheless, great video, and a nice change of scenery from the usual politics and bigger social matters debated here.