The U.N. Should Admit Palestine as a Full Member State

On September 23, 2011, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas appeared before the U.N. General Assembly to request full membership for the State of Palestine. After 20 years of failed talks with Israel, can this plea to the international community be the only path left to a two-state solution, or have the Palestinians set the peace process back by bypassing negotiations?
For: Mustafa Barghouthi
For: Dore Gold
Against: Aaron David Miller
Against: Daniel Levy
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[@MichelMawon4982]

I really like this host's style of moderating, he's decisive and no nonsense, "with respect". I'd live to be an audience member. Dr. Bargutti made me cry at the end. It's very rare that I hear Palestinians speak and don't feel their sincerity. I totally understand that all they want is to be seen and have their humanity reaffirmed. I hardly ever hear hate or violence, mostly hurt. On the Israeli defender side, I hear a lot rigidity, arrogance, disrespect. I'm so glad no one was fooled by that woman's "sincere" question and the host had her explain herself and Bargutti called her put right away. I have some Israelis and Jews from the diaspora try to advance the position that Palestinians are non entities and it's truly disrespectful. This was 10 years ago now and what Levy was warning against is precisely where we are today where the Israeli government is further to the right and violence has taken over as the only solution. There's no peace because it was never part of the Zionist's plan. If they are to make space for all Jews to have a homeland, Palestinians have to either emigrate elsewhere or be killed off. It seems they've opted for the latter.

[@fadialtaji3714]

When the Zionists came to Palestine as immigrants from Russell, Europe and Ethiopia, they did not content themselves with living with us in peace, no, but rather they stole our homes and our land and carried out ethnic cleansing and changed the name of Palestine to Israel and made it theirs... This is all because of the British occupation that allowed them to immigrate to us and then handed over our land to them . Freedom for Palestine from the river to the sea

[@TifaNagia-bf8vt]

. /, Y, z

[@TifaNagia-bf8vt]

19

[@TifaNagia-bf8vt]

Day

[@RJMMD]

I like your thinking. Too bad most our American politicians haven’t the courage nor character to speak up for justice. What they do instead earns them a pat on the head by Netanyahu.

[@talm6175]

Mr.Mustafa, you are so eloquent. Your argument was beautifully put.

[@wolfetone2012]

26:21 "It has no monopoly over the forces of violence in its society, in short it has no control over the guns, all of the guns, in its society! I would argue that critically important to statehood." Did he just state that the USA lacks the capacity to statehood? Since the USA does not control all the guns in its society and is in fact legislated against control over all guns

[@incarau]

Great presentation by Mustafa Barguti!

[@saintmichelarchange2094]

Thank you to Mr Bargouti and Mr Levy , you are simply human and realistic.

[@shujadossajee5913]

May I please suggest that these four people argued their case very well & should form a team to find a way forward so that each team may come up critical issues for each team. This under UN sec. General after Palestine is admitted in UN

[@stellabrown909]

Agree

[@Lius525]

Daniel Levy seems like such a great guy, I wish there would be more people like him who actually care about long term Israel state and peace in Middle East.

[@DeBoss3]

Sometimes the truth is bitter real argument is where is the Palestinian Homelands Al-Asqa and Al-Quds......

[@rcharlesish]

Love how they smacked down the silly woman who asked who the Palestinians are. Then she backtracks when an eloquent and beautiful answer was given.

[@atheistghostbuster6395]

A seldom considered fact...Resolution 273 granting Israel full UN membership states as follows...Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 and 11 December 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representatives of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions. This did not mean to continue expropriating land and expand illegal settlements. Israel's membership is null and void!

[@CalPolySJPME]

There's a typo in the description. For: Dore Gold ??? Against: Daniel Levy???

[@stewart0312]

Mustafa was absolutely brilliant in making his points. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[@stellabrown909]

Agree

[@Ididntaskforahandleyoutube]

No, that's not the definition.

[@Ab-kq7ql]

Every time I stumble upon debates about Palestine - Israel conflict, Israel supporters seem to be losing.

[@esoterodactyl]

agreed. there’s no logical path to genocide and ethnic cleansing and war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[@JoshuaVogel79]

Every time I look at the actual conflict, Israel seems to be winning. But enjoy your audience poll victory!

[@Ngamotu83]

To put it simple, new data requires us to rethink, and maybe even reject old data.

[@MatthewGraham027]

This was the most emotionally tense debate I have seen. When John Donovan can't even get the two to stop arguing you know its tense. After all of that we can never get the sides to compromise. This is the reason why we can never get anything done in the Middle East

[@RJMMD]

Sure there’s plenty being done. Israel keeps encroaching on everything that’s Palestinian until there won’t be a Palestine. Indigenous Palestinians lived in Palestine long before the Jews came along and remained there until 1896 when Zionists crept in like termites and locus, claiming they are doing God’s work as they make indigenous people suffer and die or flee with no right of return allowed.

[@Ngamotu83]

And the name Palestine was used to refer to the entire region by Herodotus in the 5th century BCE, thus showing that name has too been used for over 2,000 years. And going back to the earliest point, texts at the Egyptian temple Medinet Habu dating to the 12thcentury BCE, use the term Peleset, although as you pointed out it was used to refer to the people of that region of Egypt who were part of the Sea Peoples. But nevertheless, the term Palestine is just as old as the term Israel.

[@Donzq8]

Mistake in Description, Daniel Levy is For the motion, and Gold is against. Please review. Thanks.

[@Ngamotu83]

Just because the Palestinian people did not in their past have a country on the land does not mean they have no right to their own nation. They have occupied that land for thousands of years, they should not be forced to move somewhere else if they want their own nation. They have every right to establish their own nation in their homeland, which is in the area they now occupy. More than that, the Israelis cannot use their past to violate international law and the rights of others, no one can.

[@deficrypto1234]

Palestinians did have a country under the Mandate system. John Quigley has covered this point extensively in the book 'The Statehood of Palestine'. They had distinct laws, borders, treaties, financial administration, conferred nationality and immigration laws.

[@fnamlnam8221]

could you pls rectify your caption those For/Against . . . there seems to be a mised up . . . For: Mustafa Barghouthi For: Dore Gold ??? Against: Aaron David Miller Against: Daniel Levy ???

[@jeounghh87]

The cheese metaphor that Mr. Abbas describes really struck home with me.

[@GuerrillaFilms1]

Out of the 20+ debates I have watched on this channel. This has been the most chaotic.

[@Ngamotu83]

The point of bringing up the term 'Peleset' and Herodotus is to show that the name 'Palestine' or its root derivatives are just as old as the name 'Israel'. I wasn't arguing that the region has been known as Palestine just as long, but rather refuting your claim about the name Israel predating the name Palestine. The additional point of bringing up Herodotus was to show that the region, not the polity, has been referred to as Palestine for over 2,000 years.

[@user-jd3go8kd5r]

Long time ago the UN should of gave PALESTINE full member rights like Israel 🇮🇱 HAVE nothing more nothing LESS FREE PALESTINE at LAST

[@Amadeus_2061]

Very true. Or give aid to both sides for food, medicine, and infrastructure instead. Investing in one side's military alone is a sure way to perpetuate conflict...

[@harmonicvibrations6229]

Daniel Levy! You Sir. Show that SOME Israeli have a heart! You make me feel proud to be British! You made you points articulacy and with empathy! I salute you sir!

[@andrewwells6323]

What do you "some"? Stop portraying an entire nation of people as inherently evil.

[@mortef]

Sadly the entire nation segregates their inhabitants, so saying that there is some exceptions is more balanced and nuanced than the Israeli actions.

[@Ngamotu83]

Genetic studies done on modern-day Palestinians do in fact show that they have ancestry in many of the different Semitic and even non-Semitic ethnic groups that have inhabited the Levant over those thousands of years. The truth is that discerning the native and rightful inhabitants of the Israel/Palestine area is incredibly difficult, owing to thousands of years of migration throughout the Middle East and intermingling of the various groups, mostly the Semitic ones.

[@jagdavies1]

Aaron David Miller is actually voicing all the same worries about the forming of the state of israel...how ironic

[@Amadeus_2061]

How can Gold claim that Palestine should not be allowed entry into the UN because Hamas does not adhere to the UN charter, when Israel itself has broken more UN resolutions than any other country in the world? That same argument should send Israel flying out of the UN, but I doubt he'd support that too... Double standard?

[@thealienpredatorfly]

Speakers mixed up in the description, Illuminati confirmed.

[@Ngamotu83]

You're right. You can't convert a race. But just as with the Egyptians the Palestinians were converted by the Arabs to Arab culture and language. That didn't change the fact Palestinians are NOT DESCENDED from Arabs. Palestinian ancestry ultimately traces back to the Canaanites despite them having lost their original culture and language.

[@kokoth]

He is one of the most respected debate moderators in the world...any debate about almost any Israeli-Palestinian conflict is challenging.

[@averayugen7802]

it should actually be a no brainer.

[@rominadecoito9547]

Israël is the occupier and Is a member of state in the UN. That means to me you can steal some one's land and come before the UN and declared yourself as a Member of state and the UN accepts this.

[@Ph0be]

Does it cost money to go? Cuz these debates are awesome :0

[@caelmcdiarmid1874]

What does the online community think? Like if you're for the motion.

[@atheistghostbuster6395]

I'm going to go with completely!

[@Ngamotu83]

You can't just have an entirely new population immigrate into a region, have them breed with the locals and genetically dominate the locals. At most, the locals, their offspring at least will acquire a few genes from the foreigners. But by and large, they will still retain a strong lineage to the pre-migrant local ancestors, more so than with the migrant ancestors. Again, you're ignoring the entire science of genetics.

[@deficrypto1234]

Did Dore Gold call Israel 'Peace loving'?

[@vincewolfs1358]

The Mandate has ended. Get over it. What was Palestine is now called Jordan and Israel.

[@mohameduso1517]

We are eager to know the result of the montion?

[@XhekajFacePunch]

This moderator did everything he could to prevent any discussion of Israel's behaviour.

[@danielmoshejohnson]

Shalom Aleichem Thanks for the message, but, remember, history is a result of now, and now future is apart of the now moment. The current situation, both positive and negative, is predicated upon inaccuracies in history, ethical approaches to the current situation, which would remedy the issue of undocumented migrants who have been in the land long before many of the descendants of early Jews who are there now. Does time abolish heritage or rights to land, not in this case, because, we are talking about a Kingdom, 2 Kingdoms, that have been illegally occupied by every Tyrant from the 2nd century until this day. The Persian anti Bedouin story is heartbreaking. the massacre in Syria by Assads father, all of this is due to the original sin of the invasion of Judah and Israel by Rome. For that breach is what became a stepping stone for everything post AD70. This you can not challenge, if this is the case, then, the entire notion of anyone other than Jews in Judea and Israeli Kingdoms, is based in the residue of an invasion or mix marriages. The fact there is animosity to the descendants for ancient Judeans, mean that individuals seek to destroy the first cause and create new causes that were born out of error. You can’t have a resistance and claim territory from what has been unlawfully stolen, and then in the future seek to claim and act as if your recent history predates ancient history . Daniel Moshe Johnson

[@atheistghostbuster6395]

Completely understandable statement...considering we average about 13,000 murders a year, ranging in reason from "someone looked at me the wrong way to jealous rage"! How many people do we imprison on an annual basis? How many women are raped every year? How many people are robbed? How many children are molested? How long has it been since slavery was abolished? How many wars have we been involved in? Yeah, we must be the most civil people in the world and have every right to criticize others!

[@Bavafa1]

I was amused by the question of the young man which he asked 'trading one IDF prisoner for a 1000 terrorist' when in fact it was trading one terrorist for a 1000 freedom fighters.

[@Ngamotu83]

It wasn't the original homeland of the Jews, the Canaanites were there before them. And the region has been referred to as Palestine or other Semitic language variants for 3,000 years. Genetically modern-day Palestinians aren't Arabs, having roots with the ancient inhabitants that predate both Jewish and Arab control.

[@Ngamotu83]

I don't think we want to be going down the language route, because the inevitable final conclusion will be that Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages, and that Jews and Arabs are Semitic people within the Afro-Asiatic ethno-linguistic family. Rendering that point moot. It also raises doubts about why one Semitic people are native to a land they are NOT the original occupants of, but another Semitic people aren't, even though they have just as long history with that land as the other occupants.

[@Ngamotu83]

Look up Palestinian Jew. It is a very real term and has been used to describe real people up until the 20th century. The term Palestinian Jew is exactly the same as Ethiopian Jew.

[@rudolphally4956]

Thanks you for say good things must happin in the world

[@Ngamotu83]

Considering that Arabs created one of the largest empires in history it would have been impossible for them to outnumber the local populations they conquered, even in span of 1,500 years. The scientifically verified minor genetic overlap between Arabs and Palestinians does not mean Palestinians are FULL Arabs, especially when genetic studies show they are more closely related to Jews. You can repeat the census polls all you want, but they use categories that are based on out-dated data.

[@primotef8863]

Mustafa Barghouthi thoroughly proved wrong that 'Palestinians don't want negotiations'.

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

It's not "For: Mustafa Barghouthi and Dore Gold, Against: Aaron David Miller and Daniel Levy BUT IT IS FOR: Mustafa Barghouthi and Daniel Levy, Against: Aaron David Miller and Dore Gold

[@bevrismargis-pl8cv]

Following this program very interesting

[@endfite]

they just cant pull the wool over ppls eyes anymore

[@mary-leelutz4911]

They haven't… except in the U.S. Even most Jews in the U.S. can see the truth. But AIPAC and CUFI pull the strings in Congress… and it's all about the Benjamins.

[@fonrogers]

The former Israeli UN ambassador does not focus on the issue and gives a lecture for ninety percent of his time. Ridiculous!!

[@Ngamotu83]

But they never exterminated the local populations. That's the important point. The Arab rulers, post-conquest did not eliminate the local populations. Instead they let them remain where they where, letting them continue their own way of living but bringing it all under Arab rule. That is how a significant Jewish population managed to survive under Arab then Ottoman rule right up until the formation of the modern state of Israel. It was the same with the Palestinians.

[@AliBeeization]

And who were those Jews who had a continuous presence in Palestine? What language did they speak? What culture did they have? How did they dress? The fact is the Jews of Palestine were Palestinian Jews, as Palestinians are Christians & Muslim. Yes the Jews had a continuous presence but they were Palestinian & they shared Palestinian history, culture, music, food etc... Don't you have any shame trying to justify ethnic cleansing and colonialism? Honestly it is sickening.

[@SublimeSati]

So if by some twist of fate Mexico gets a hold of a weapon that could defeat the United States.... and decides to use it to take their land back.... that would be ok? If Mexico slowly started taking their land back and Americans were treated like Palestinians are treated now.. that would be ok because it was Mexicos land first... right? All land was once someone elses. The only way to prevent future wars is to stop the music in this game of musical chairs and everyone gets the seat they have.

[@Anhaa0]

why is Daniel Levy goes mad everytime we have a debate?!?!

[@megabyte291]

Why shouldn't he?

[@Ngamotu83]

It is actually possible to be Arabized. When the Muslim armies first spread out from the Arab Peninsula in the 7th century only Arabs could be Muslims; for someone to convert to Islam they had to become an Arab. That's partly why Persia was not Islamized until the 10th century, and even remained Persian despite becoming Islamic. And genetics is the best means for establishing whether a person or population is actually Arab, or a member of any other ethnicity. For you to dismiss it is pitiful.

[@deficrypto1234]

Dore Gold said' These issues have to be negotiated'. No. International law is the means for arbitration. Israel conducted treaties with Egypt and Jordan and there was no basis for 'recognising' Israel. Also, Israel is still the occupying power in Gaza. This is the opinion of Israel's leading expert on International law, Yoram Dinstein.

[@AliBeeization]

Decent peace loving people are happy when they see a Jew & a Palestinian working together for peace. It makes those with evil intentions and racist, bigoted attitudes angry. How do you feel when you see a Palestinian & a Jew shaking hands and working together for peace? It will teach you a lot about yourself.

[@machngunjoe]

@ 14:25-:30 do you not see people clearly pressing all the buttons except 1,2, and 3 like the moderator instructed lol

[@dagandom3671]

I think you should not cut off one in the middle of delivering a valuable opinion. as a moderator you should give him three to 5 minutes to wrap up his speech.

[@ishagabdulrazzak6298]

I wonder how you (US and Australia ) gave full countryship to East Timor and how you divided Sudan, into South Sudan and North Sudan. You US, Australia and UN divided countries into parts as per your whims and fancies. I wonder how US, Australia, UN and US's allys have the right to impose their own decetions on the World.

[@stellabrown909]

Who is here 2023 because of what’s happening in Israel-HAMAS saga?

[@kokoth]

Who knew Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad had a dog in this fight...tell me I'm not the only who sees the STRIKING similarity?

[@SumKnight-iw4rw]

This was 11 years ago. What do y’all think now? The only way is to make it one state with one law and one government with freedom of religion, children going to school together, hospitals, libraries, Health Departments, juvenile detention, jails, prisons, courts, parks, zoos, stores, jobs, volunteering, farming, import and export, tourism and freedom to travel. Border control. In America we have had civil wars. Now we live together in peace mostly. There’s always going to be criminals and racist crimes. But most crime is against people’s same race. There needs to be celebrations for all to attend. Opportunities for all to own their own business and homes. One state. One law. Or let the people move out if they don’t want it.

[@wildlettuce]

statehood is a concept which is derived from sovereignty, not the other way around. if the tomorrow the UN recognises Victora as an Aborigine state, what do you think would happen?

[@deficrypto1234]

Not true. Statehood can exist without sovereignty. Gaza has more sovereignty than the Vatican. Yet the Vatican is a state.

[@Ngamotu83]

How did those who performed the censuses define Arab identity? What parameters did they use to establish whether someone was Arab? To what extent are those definitions challenged by more recent discoveries? To what extent does modern genetics require us to rethink what it means to be Arab? And Palestinian for that matter? In light of newly acquired knowledge in what ways MUST we rethink what it means to be Arab, Palestinian, Jew, etc.?

[@deficrypto1234]

Have u tried asking them and looking at the relevant documents? I am sure u can send them an e mail.

[@jstsurreal]

09:20 to skip Rozenkranz's introduction

[@leslierodricks2701]

Begin the process of admitting Palestine as a full fledged UN member! Thank you!

[@gloriaf6971]

Palestine existed before Israel so of course it should be admitted to the UN. What makes Israel more entitiled?

[@petproshorts]

That was the most worst run debate I've ever witnessed.

[@MessengerEmmet]

ADRIAN RELAND (1676-1718), Dutch Orientalist, Linguist and Cartographer wrote an account of his visit to Palestina in 1696, His book, Palaestina ex veteribus monumentis illustrata, was published in 1714. Relandi identifies each of the places mentioned in the Mishnah or Talmud along with their original source. If the source was Jewish, he listed it together with the appropriate sentence in the Scriptures. he also arranged a population survey and census of each community.

[@gopher7691]

Too many interruptions. Do your job moderator

[@Ngamotu83]

The Ottomans may have had their ways of determining whether someone was of one ethnicity or another, as the British early in the 20th century did. But because the information they would have relied on to establish their census categories was much more limited than the information we today possess regarding ethnicities, then in light of the new and contradictory information from genetics we cannot rely on the old census data to determine who belongs to which ethnicity.

[@deficrypto1234]

Ur incorrect. The Ottoman census is as recognisable as any other census taken about the same time. Benny Morris and many historians have used the censuses in official academic works.

[@TurkeyEren]

so true

[@supriyabiswas6373]

Loved ❤the outcome of the vote after the debate. Palestinians should be an equal member with other nations at the UNITED NATIONS.

[@harbinger6562]

Would 🇵🇸 need a Liberation Organization if 🇵🇸was Liberated 🤔🩵

[@randomcheese1719]

2-state solution has been tried repeatedly, Palestinians never agree to anything, it's never good enough. I don't understand the entire charade going on here from Mustafa and Dore.

[@josephtraficanti689]

When the original Palestine is partitioned the state of Palestine was created. Not just Israel. It was an oversight that the two state solution had been put into Reality. Why would it be only Israel.

[@wildlettuce]

i'm not a US citizen, dont care about the elections. "We live in the 21st century" - does that mean a bunch of non-democratic countries should participate in democratic processes (UN) that affect me?, or does it mean that whatever emperor obama wants he gets? why do you think that 21st century politics are so much different?

[@joetheporpoise7239]

Sure, UN should say that Palestine is a state. It can then be fully responsible for stopping attacks from it's land. Failing that, attacks on Israel will be considered acts of war and Israel should respond as such.

[@Andalus0880]

Haha, I thought the same thing the moment I laid eyes on him.

[@KindBatman]

But... There is.

[@paxdriver]

Terrible panel... I was really looking forward to this debate but the fell disappointingly short. Not sure if it was worth int Sq should have even uploaded... Really embarrassed for the Israeli supporters (speaking as a supporter of palestine).

[@Ngamotu83]

The Palestinians aren't occupiers. They are native inhabitants who were converted to Arab culture and language during the conquests in the 7th century. Hence why they are now considered Arabs despite having ancestry in the Canaanites.

[@SublimeSati]

It's a valid question. California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas... all were Mexico's until the Mexican/American war. If Mexico somehow got support or some new military weapon capable of defeating the U.S. Would it be ok for them to start taking their land back? So the question is... does "might make right"? I think Plato answered that question for us. I think the answer to the problem is the two state solution... how do you propose the problem be solved?

[@marcusmueller891]

Everyone knows what is going on in Palestine. The moment the Palestinian gentleman was asked "what do your opponents not understand about your position (paraphrasing)", and he answered as though that were a legitimate question, it was over (around the 11 minute mark). Any intellectual who defends Israel is crooked, not ignorant.

[@patwilliam543]

yay finally America is catching up

[@freedomadvocator]

They will respect each other over the fact that they both hsve weapons

[@shaybritting6019]

Thanks for this report! 👍 FREE Palestine By A TWO-State Solution! 💞🙏🏼

[@Ididntaskforahandleyoutube]

Palestine doesn't want a Two-State solution. How many times do they have to say 'no' for people to notice?

[@JoshuaVogel79]

Palestinians: "death to Israel! Kill all Jews!" Pro-Palestinian Americans: "aww cute! They just want peace! ❤"

[@WickederThanThou]

i wanna smack that moderator...he interrupts everybody

[@MohamadHadi-vs6ww]

I have an idea. What about if Palestine is given to Jordan and they can join and make federal government and sign peace with Israel?

[@Ngamotu83]

Looking further into the genetic studies doen some startling things come up. Those genetic studies show that Palestinians and Jews are near identical genetically, with those similarities most likely dating to pre-Judean times. The slight exception is a small mixing of Arab genes most likely from when the Jews who stayed in Palestine mingled with the Arab immigrants and converted to Islam. But nevertheless, Jews and Palestinians are very closely related, to the point they are near identical.

[@EgypTPHONIX]

lets have a sword fight then they can have a respectful dialogue .

[@MessengerEmmet]

Vlado S - You must have read the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or "The International Jew". Do you know the true origin of these books?

[@Ngamotu83]

Who considers fallibility to be a valid argument? Just the entire scientific and wider academic community.

[@Ngamotu83]

I'm rejecting the OLD research, what you keep on bringing up; because it is rendered outdated by the MORE RECENT research, which includes the rather young scientific discipline of genetics. Do you not understand how science works?

[@ishagabdulrazzak6298]

I blame the US and UN for not following on, on the agreement agreed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasir Arafaath.

[@mcgra8bc]

Gold is so Obnoxious.

[@Gnomefro]

One way of doing this is to not wear a brown uniform and an armband with a swastika unless you're prepared to suffer the social consequences of being identified with a dangerous fascist movement. For Palestininans, it's much the same thing with regards to associating with Hamas.