Intercessors in 10th Edition - The Primaris Battle Line Unit Reviewed! Codex Space Marines Tactics

[@hahaureadmyname]

heavy intercessors are my favorite. very good objective monkeys

[@6-4crusader55]

I wish they had more options for special and heavy weapons

[@ridgerunnersp]

RIP tactical squad

[@Pyrocitor]

I'd love to be able to sneak a hellblaster or infernus marine into one just for the flavour of it.

[@boozeybatman]

Yes they would better than tactical then

[@HighMarshalBiggusDickus]

@@PyrocitorLET ME TELL YA ABOUT THE DEATHWATCH

[@Incognito413]

But then GW couldn't sell entire squads equipped with single weapon types.

[@MountainKing88771]

I think the intercessors really shine at 1k point games. Having sticky lets them nab unguarded primary points and they are still eligible to shoot after advancing away. They do a good job at keeping the VP flowing.

[@BloodBuffalo]

And the grenade strategem. Free mortal wounds for 1 CP comes in handy often

[@keyanklupacs6333]

Yep sticky objectives is much more valuable in lower point games!

[@DailYxDosE]

What does sticky mean?

[@MountainKing88771]

@DailYxDosE Some units like intercessors have an ability that once they claim a primary objective, it will still be under your control even if no models remain. It is very useful letting your units keep moving around the table. It is also nice because even if they sit there and get killed from range, your opponent still has to come take it otherwise you keep scoring.

[@Bradnauseam119]

I feel like personally, I prefer tactical marines now that Combat Squads are back. sure, the bolters are worse and they get killed in cc, but overall having the heavy and special weapons options makes them feel more relevant.

[@reederickson3202]

My first minis were tactical marines, and I'll be damned if I don't bring them to EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

[@Powaup]

It always feels bad when you are running a squad but you draw the mission rule where all units get sticky objective

[@seanalonzo9244]

As a DG player I can relate.

[@Toadfish7]

Same with my imperial guard shock troops

[@OGXenos]

I think Intercessors, at least for 10th, are victims of Space Marine bloat. 90% of the time, your army would benefit more from having a specialist unit instead of generalist Intercessors, unless your army is DESIGNED to be generalists and not specialists.

[@chaoticzer0]

I wish they had streamed lined the line for 10th and cut like half of the datasheets at a minimum.

[@OGXenos]

@@chaoticzer0 People are already raging mad about the outdated kits they removed; I think at this point GW has put themselves into a corner where they can't remove ANY unit without several hundred people getting raging mad about it. Oh, unless you're Chaos. Then they'll delete all of your old units and offer zero replacement for five years no matter how hard you cry.

[@piotrjeske4599]

​@@OGXenosthe "problem" was never classic vs primaris causing bloat. It was GW turning every loadout in to a separate unit. The dreads , the speeders , the 3 types of phobos, floaty predators etc they all triple and sometimes quadruple a single unit entry. Cpt on foot, cpt in phobos armour , cpt in gravis , cpt in terminator armour and cpt with jump pack, with possible biker cpt next edition. That is 2 page in a codex that could be done with Xpts for Y gear .

[@Segmentum-Amateur]

Intercessors have been my go to all edition just for that sticky objective as i like to take really killy shooting armies

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Yep, just too many choices.

[@michaelsantangelo1875]

I think that in the vanguard detachment they'll be interesting just to have a 5 man squad to potentially get as a cheeky third infantry unit (should your Phobos have a captain) to put in your enemies back line to sticky their home objects since they can take out most small units that other armies use to hold an objective

[@euanglenn5902]

Intercessors with anvil siege force have +1 to wound, which is hilarious

[@troublemaker9899]

Don't forget in Blood Angels, the Librarian Dreadnought takes advantage of their ObSec rule by warping the squad out to empty objectives to just take them.

[@killerhappyface]

I kind of wish GW would just merge Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, and Tactical Squads already. The grenade launcher / bolter combo is pretty well balanced with the Tactical special weapons, so it's fine if all the weapons are available imo. Give the squad the Combat Squads ability and give the sergeant either sticky objectives or rerolls, depending on whether he's melee or ranged. Less bloat in the codex and a far more interesting unit to play around with.

[@OrangeAmped]

I definitely agree that tactical squads should get merged with intercessors. Since other armies like IG have weapons specialists and heavy weapons, there's not any reason why Space Marines can't do this.

[@killerhappyface]

@@OrangeAmped Yeah I always thought it was strange how Primaris can only take special weapons if everyone in the squad has one. Nobody else does this.

[@David-mx1os]

I think they're good as either 5 man squads for grabbing objectives or 10 man squads with a character, either lieutenant, librarian, or tech marine. Yes, a 10 man squad of hellblaster is much shootier, but it's also a lot more points - intercessors can take a character and still work out cheaper than a squad of hellblasters without a character

[@yishumate]

lol, '"Ramged" damage output' seems like an appropriate description of what they do

[@Tyrnak_Fenrir]

Interesting point is that the app allows you to put the grenade launcher on the sergeant, which will help protect it.

[@MidWanker-Minis]

I have two units of 5 because they came in a bigger box. I’m going to try to find a excuse to use them since they are painted up nice.

[@mattlevens6382]

Yeah same, they're my most recently painted models and my best. I think they're cool so rule of cool over all

[@BigBoi237]

They're good as a home field unit, and for securing you VP by getting on midfield objectives and performing secondaries

[@basteala525]

Them having an actually respectable melee profile helps them a lot vs tactical marines I feel. They're still not *great* but Tactical Squads often struggled to kill random guardsmen in melee. At least these guys can do something.

[@charleswatson2605]

I think the real problem is gameflow wants you to play secondaries & hold objectives but any unit that isn't a firehose of damage feels "weak" because at the end of the day, your enemy can't score points with no models, so killing is always the best way to win. It's a shame really, rules that promote tactical play being supplanted by just shooting whatever you can see, or even what you can't see.

[@anttilehtonen2948]

Agree. That's why 9th edition secondaries were good as many needed to have infrantry and especially troops to do them. Now there isn't really cons choosing too many vehicles or elites regarding scoring secondaries.

[@jarrakul]

I kinda like that their bolters aren't completely terrible? Even if they still aren't super impressive against tougher units.

[@jamesbravo1931]

I always include a squad of 5 to hunt objectives while the most specialist units take care of the enemy units. I think it's always nice to have at least 2 units like Intercessors or other battleline/low damage units so they can focus on secondaries like engage on all fronts or to perform actions

[@piotrjeske4599]

Maybe one day, the un8t will get the option to take a multi melta, las talon, heavy bolter or pyro blaster. And then instead the GL a regular melta, hellblaster plasma and a smaller pyro. Then create an extended and impulsor that can carry 10 and maybe in 12th ed we will see them used again

[@dreadflint]

The Repulsor is the 10-man transport for them.

[@JimH.]

Once the remaining firstborn models are phased out (probably by the start of 11th ed.), they'll probably upgrade Intercessors to have more options. After all, can't sell all those leftover tactical boxes if Intercessors do everything better.

[@Lomhow]

​@@dreadflint Repulsor is now transport 12! Rejoice!

[@MrDMSir]

Tactical intercessors.

[@TsundeReaper989]

Wow I’m early, I wish infiltrators were battleline for Vanguard detachment

[@ShahbazBokhari]

It’s kinda nuts that they’re not.

[@obbububu]

Appreciate you looking at the anvil shenanigans :D the numbers theorycraft was very welcome! The Heavy Intercessors do definitely seem a bit juicier for the anvil stuff than the normal intercessors, parked stationary on an objective and having +1 to hit, +1 to wound and +1save against Damage1 weapons, even if you aren't stacking buffs that's a fair amount of shots that are wounding impulsors on a 4+. Seem like a fairly durable option to bait people into shooting at, then using the return fire strat, perhaps with captain refund and FNP or ignore cover enhancement? Combined with the fall back strat options on objectives, could be a pain to deal with. For anvil units in general, there's also probably something that can be done with the combi weapon lieutenant (reroll wound rolls of 1 against units on a single objective) combined with weapons that are already getting +1 to wound. I heard the ability was actually buffed in the codex to not require proximity to the lieutenant?

[@dreadflint]

They also shred other Marine infantry, hitting and wounding on 2s is realllly nice.

[@DJCallidus]

My friend's lad calls them *Incestors* 😅 He's only small and too young to have it explained. We just laugh and correct him.

[@Bumbaclart247]

He might be trying to tell you something about your friend 😅

[@MrMeltdown]

Be glad it’s not In-sisters. The levels of smutty innuendo go deep…

[@DJCallidus]

@@MrMeltdown The Orks being a prime example. My Dad would laugh at my Nob with his 'Uge Choppa.

[@SGWeber]

I've used them mainly as a 10-man with a lieutenant in the Gladius detachment, using Bolter Discipline and Devastator Doctrine since I don't have any heavy intercessors. Lets them punch up decently, though I mainly use it as some bonus damage off my "anvil" unit while the Deathwing does the real work.

[@garthmichel]

I'd love to see some videos breaking down the how the divergent chapters such as blood angels and black templar are looking with the new spaceatinw codex and possible configurations

[@Battle_Reports]

They are f* amazing! Sticki objectives - must have!

[@Michaelkayslay]

Intercessors look dope. Just include them

[@yikeswazowski9838]

Sometimes the sticky objective rule comes in handy, so it's nice to keep a squad of 5 on hand

[@MrDMSir]

Nade launcher needs assault and a slight buff. D3+1 blast and D3+1 damage.

[@mortenbrandtjensen6470]

Awesome, I love my intercessors. They started as a side project (marines with bolters and true scale), and then they grew on me. Which is probably why I have had them perform central duties in my force I run them in Gladius Task Force detachment, 10 intercessors with a lieutenant. In Devastator Doctrine and under Storm of Fire strategem they deliver a strong punch. AP -2 and ignore cover is simply very good with Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits on 5+ as well as rerolls. That I further gets to move the unit opposed to standing still in the Anvil Siege detachment is just a positive. Futhermore the frag grenades has done well against World Eaters Berzerkers and Death Guard Plague Marines. Now, would krak grenades have been better? I'll have to look at that 4 shots vs. 1 just seems good off the bat. Would heavy intercessors have done it better? I have to look to look at that as well. They would be tougher, that's for sure.

[@philurbaniak1811]

👍👍ideal in some ways but it's Gravis or bigger for my lot 🤷🏼‍♀️ it's also no Bolters 😅!

[@darkchancellor5030]

commenting now, but thanks to my ravenguard mines, i dont need sticky objective rifleman, 1cp vs more points for other units seems nice

[@chaosheaven23]

Heavy Intercessors prove themselves over regular Ints for me every time. I keep a Squad around for sticky objectives, but other than that, it's Gravis til the cows come home!

[@RSBurgener]

If you don't have Sternguard, if you don't have Helblasters, if you got these in a box with a lieutenant, it sounds like you can depend on them for some shooting if you need to.

[@dmitriyazeev3453]

10 man squad + Lieutenant works always well in my games.

[@Silvavdp]

I know right!? I already managed to put 10 wounds on a Shalaxi. For 160pts + Lt I think you cannot ask for more.

[@musicalcharge]

I have fifteen I've never bothered to build, I hope some day they get good.

[@jeffwilson9579]

Always good content. Keep up the good work!

[@BloodBuffalo]

I use them often. Grenade strategem is some good cheap mortal wounds

[@ChefScott99]

They are great with the Servo Skulls Leviathan mission.

[@smoketinytom]

I love them. The sticky objectives are lovely and the Sgt has a legal loadout for 2 Chainswords, so it's always fun to rock up with that and have more impact on a unit that thought they could tie you in combat. :D Haven't checked with this codex, cos I've not got my code this morning.

[@BurnByMoonlight]

Even if you have two Chainswords, the sergeant can only attack with one.

[@smoketinytom]

@@BurnByMoonlight And why’s that… And liking your own comment, grow up.

[@Dee7nine]

The ability to have good melee weapons at no cost is the game changer for intercessors. In 9th you basically had 5 bolter guys. Now that you can have a sword fist or thunder hammers they can actually do some damage back

[@yaboiyojimbo2025]

@@smoketinytom YT likes ur own comment when you post it & they're referencing this: "If a model has more than one melee weapon, it can only use one of them to make attacks with each time it fights, so you must now declare which it will use before resolving any of its attacks." / Weapons with the [EXTRA ATTACKS] Keyword: "Each time the bearer of such a weapon fights, it can make attacks with that weapon in addition to the one it chooses to fight with." So just chill :)

[@Kmwildride]

I normally take a squad of 5 in my lists, handy to take a home field objective

[@unlimitedpanda5433]

had had 2 games the other week at 1000pts were i bought 3 intercessors (1 squad with captain, other with chaplain) and 1 10 man hellblaster with lieutenant. first game my buddy is running flesh tearers with a biker chaplain and outriders, he charges the captains squad and kills 5 intercessors, i use the 'Finest hour' ability and the 5 intercessors and sargent wipe the outriders leaving the chaplain. In my 2nd game it was a 2v2 with me and my flesh tearer buddy vs 2 friends doing necrons and craftworlds. teammate is able to cross the board and able to shut down the necron players keeping his entire army locked up in melee. The eldar player has 2 5-man squads of rangers to whittle down my hellblasters (who shoot back and wipe a swooping hawks squad), but he ignores my brick of 30 intercessors who move up to board, and with the captain running bolter discipline and using the 0cp storm of fire wipes the rangers and starts hammering the backline. was alot of fun

[@wulferikgebhardt5312]

I've already got 20 of the guys plus a librarian for either them or 5 hellblasters, but alot of them without the special weapons (monopose). Glad to see gunlines like that can work!

[@unlimitedpanda5433]

@@wulferikgebhardt5312 Definitely! i was tempted by the librarian, but went with the chaplain instead incase of melee. The gunline did put in the work, but i feel like thats because my opponents brought infantry heavy lists as well. The first game ended in a draw since i couldnt deal with his redemptor dread and i would kill the rest of his army from range.

[@wulferikgebhardt5312]

@@unlimitedpanda5433 I've got the hellblasters and some aggressors too. They might help against vehicles. Plus, I'm planning to run some individual intercessors and a lone infernus I can't really use otherwise as a sternguard squad w/ bolters and pyrecannon. Those devastating wounds should come in handy.

[@unlimitedpanda5433]

@@wulferikgebhardt5312 aren't aggressors anti-infantry? I do like that sternguard idea

[@wulferikgebhardt5312]

@@unlimitedpanda5433Yes, they've got twin powerfists though and are chunky enough to get close and punch some holes. Also with a gravis captain and the gladius detachment, the can use a stratagem for free to get +1 to wound on a charge and possibly an extra -1 AP in devastator doctrine. Wounding a tank on a 4+ with up to -3 AP and 2 D, plus wound rerolls from twin-linked seems pretty lethal to me. Add oath of moment for hit rerolls and even more damage.

[@follower9698]

I love my intercessors. I understand why people prefer tac marines, but I honestly I think 20 S4, AP -1 attacks aren't too bad for hosing down non marine infantry, and the GLs give them some target flexibility in most cases. They're not the sexiest units, but I think they're good for what they are.

[@peachesthedestroyer483]

Any chance we could get a breakdown and comparison for SW Grey Hunters and Blood Claws vs the intercessors and assault intercessors?

[@rhys9]

Think it depends if you want primaris or the older models

[@peachesthedestroyer483]

@rhys9 I was thinking more along the lines of seeing what actually stacks up better. Grey hunters can take boltguns bolt pistols 2 special weapons a power fist on the Sgt and the entire squad can take chainswords in addition. So they'd get chainswords plus their boltguns and specials in 5man squads. But I've never seen a channel really weigh them out properly and I don't have the head for the hard math etc

[@rhys9]

@@peachesthedestroyer483 Yes I get you. I meant for people that only want Primaris they’ll go for Intercessors and assault and swap the heads out to look like Wolves

[@shipovnik89]

I'm still waiting for the Primaris Tactical Squad

[@92Audun]

The absence of ranged special and heavy weapons really kills these guys for me : ( The underslung grenade launcher just doesn't feel very Space Marine for me, and isn't nearly as cool as a plasma or melta. At least the Sarge gets melee options.

[@XealotCoils]

My biggest gripe is that none of the weapons come in the box.

[@nealdixon-jones5851]

Grey Hunters with a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader. 👍🐺

[@Tanuvein]

I still miss the gun choices personally, it made on of those units people have identical copies of at least a little more unique. I'm actually a bit of a fan of tactical marines this edition since you can equip them to fit into your army better and combat patrols seems to make them a better choice than any 2x5 squad of intercessors, unless you need heavies to hold deployment zone and keep deepstrikers from coming in.

[@Bluecho4]

One way to field "Intercessors" more cheaply may be to track down the Age of Darkness box. (My FLGS still has boxes of them sitting on the shelf). After all, the MkVI Tacticals are all "true scale", and are all armed with bolt weapons. (You have to buy special weapons separately, for Horus Heresy reasons). So if you brought them to the table and said, "I'm running these as Intercessors", only the worst 40K fans would complain (and their opinion can be safely ignored). So long as you aren't fielding Tactical Marines - which, let's face it, you weren't going to in 10e anyway - there's no real problem. It's a good way to create a different flavor of Marines, while still being compatible with 10e.

[@CynicalOptimist99]

Are they the same base size as the Intercessors? I have yet to see the MK6 marines in person

[@tristomand]

That is What I does :D

[@tristomand]

@@CynicalOptimist99yes

[@daweimer71]

My favorite model to paint!!!

[@StaticSilence1]

Problem is the ap 1 is easily negated by cover, which is abundant in 10th.

[@Darksky1001able]

I wish they would get hard buffs as Imperial Fists.

[@eBuddy89]

What assumptions you had for the attacks, if 5 intercessors can cause 5 ranged wounds on termagants? Oath, maybe? Anything else?

[@RandyTheSavage5150]

if they would drop their point cost to around 75 they might be used more often

[@samd5466]

They're definitely not going for less on ebay anymore, if their 'buy it now' is under 50 the shipping is going to be exorbitant

[@gregtso7505]

I've been debating about making homebrew rules for Space Marines. Mostly staged around consolidation. But I have no real idea on how it would be functional. Besides the three people I play with, who else would take part? Bums me out a little.

[@schicken2782]

Could you do the video about the Outrider and Biker gang? Since they are few mounted units for SM outside the divert chapter unit

[@bilbostomper]

As a comparison, a 5-man DW Fortis Kill Team pays 30 pts MORE for OC1 and worse options.

[@bjwal6]

Intercessors NEED a heavy weapon option per 5.

[@NekrindeNekrinius]

Can their sergeant dual wield bolt pistol + plasma-pistol/hand-flamer and melee weapon of choice?

[@Greatkingrat88]

I really like how they made troops cheaper than 9th ed- they're just kind of bad in general, they shouldn't cost much.

[@jono_cc2258]

Question: if th Force Organisation chart was still a thing with a minimum requirement for Troops, would these be the default for all Marine armies?

[@Heroes_of_Qalanor_RPG]

I still don't get why they have more attacks than the assault intercessors...

[@heckinmemes6430]

Just flood the board. If they can't kill em all, then you can win on holding objectives.

[@thelonewolf9866]

New player here... I am going for a Salamanders army. I got 2 of the 3-man Infurnus boxes for a 5-man squad. I got the Blood Angels combat patrol & the Warforged strike force boxes & my Brother gave me a gravis captain. I got: Adrax Agatone, Librarian, Gravis Captain, 25 Intercessors, 6 Aggressors, 3 Eradicators, 5 Infiltrators/Incursors (magnets), 5 Infurnus marines & an Impulsor transport. I am planning on getting a Land raider redeemer for my aggressors & captain, and a Repulsor for my eradicators with space for something else in there. Probably going to get 5 more Infurnus & Vulkan He'stan Thoughts about the content & suggestions for additions? I haven't played a game before, so I don't really know what I am doing :D. TY ^^

[@sethloring9159]

MFW its been 12 hours and Auspex hasn't put another video out :0

[@Akiosama1009]

I think the main issue with Marine units isn’t that the Intercessors aren’t a decent line unit, but more that GW has gone away from “normal units with a couple special or heavy weapons” to “all models in the unit have the same weapon” which makes the Bolter troops really seem lackluster. It’s also why keyword and weapon imbalances are amplified - every unit with one of these types of weapons for each model in the unit just causes a lot more issues than if it were just part of a more typical unit as a whole. Example - Blast is a fairly reasonable keyword for what it does, until you have a full squad of 10 blast weapons giving you 10-40 extra attacks depending on the target unit size. Had that been on a tactical squad’s 1 missile launcher, that would have been 1-4 extra attacks and seemed much more reasonable, I think.

[@XealotCoils]

Tbf bolters have always been shit.

[@swagfather_6nine532]

For an April Fools joke, perhaps a vid similar to this but for a random-ass unit in like, 4th Edition?

[@iandestroyerofworlds576]

1 or 2 5man. that's it as of now. Unless you're seriously throwing them onto the objectives for hilarious meat grinder tactics.

[@Lemon.Lime.69z]

How good!?!?! Not good…next

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Warhammer standart tournament Format should be 1k points. But people love tanks, that’s why we have 2k and a lot of problems.

[@Kellhound32]

Couldn't agree more. We only play 1000-1200 which means serious opportunity cost; you can't take EVERYTHING you want and it seriously cuts down on the abusive lists. More fun for everyone.

[@RevanR]

"Boring but practical" That's how I describe this unit

[@Demortixx]

Heavy intersessor

[@Bumbaclart247]

Great for a kitbash

[@LinkiePup]

37 pound in USD is like 45 bucks… wtf gw..

[@scolack123]

60$ for 10 Gotta consider those shipping costs to bring it here

[@Smooth_Brain_Tacticians]

Bout a 10x box of intercessors as im just getting into 40k as drop pod unit for a Black Templar army. Every video i see for 10th BT is just using battle line units. Kinda sad

[@SamGray]

$60? I feel a bit better about paying $45 now.

[@TheVarzoth]

I hate intercessors now, to me they are everything that is wrong with the new marines boxes, no choice I'd rather have options for special and heavy weapons, options for the sergeant's loadout, and the option to add a veteran sergeant. There used to be so many options for customization of squads to optimize them for different roles and point values and now it's dull as hell. you get 5 or 10 of them and they are all the same bleh

[@Damnedlegion40k]

They're pretty fucking far from tactical, maybe add a heavy intercessor, desolator and infurnus and they might be tactical again 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@solowingpixy8190]

Battle line troops that no one uses.

[@KneeCapHill]

Im tried boss. I just wanted to start a spacemarine army wothout all the bullshit and unità swinging wildly in effectiveness to drive sales of unwanted primaris models.

[@ShahbazBokhari]

They just need to merge intercessors and tactical marines, and just call them tactical squads. For feck sake *give them special and heavy weapons options GW you cowards*.

[@matthewpletsch7523]

Firstborn can't Intercess

[@Damnedlegion40k]

Add a comment...

[@jrpaintball4287]

hey youtubes

[@catalyst772]

Bloated tacticals yet still aren't good

[@anthonyblea6906]

they are so mid, almost borderline bad.....

[@AMajorDisappointment]

@auspextactics please can you pronounce Lieutenant properly as Leftenant. GW confirmed that it’s pronounced the English way, not the American way. It’s really annoying hearing you say it the way you do.

[@ProbablyFat]

Why the heck isn't their a tactical squad for primaris yet is just goddamn insane.

[@MrMeltdown]

They need to sell grav guns primaris in 11th edition starter boxes first… then once everyone has a squad of those they’ll create a destructorcessors box where tacticus armoured marines can take heavy weapons…. Then in 12th they’ll allow you to take a tacticus squad which had the exact same load outs as the original tactical squad and you’ll be able to field 5 complete squads of them by mixing and matching what you already own…

[@JimH.]

Because GW can't sell all their leftover tactical boxes if Intercessors do everything better. Once they've sold what they want, most likely by 11th, you'll see the new, improved, totally-not-just-primaris-tactical Intercessors.

[@samhunter1205]

GW don't want units with lots of weapon options any more, mainly because it gave third party bits makers a market. So unfortunately I don't think they will add in options for intercessors. Of course there is an easy solution - play with friends and house-rule things so they can take a single special or heavy weapon like a tactical squad could. The more people ignore GW's bullshit rules the better.

[@rankcolour8780]

There won't be. Primaris are Great Crusade marines 2.0. Squads will ALL be like legion squads that specialise completely at one thing. Primarchs are all back. All Bolter squads. All Melta squads. All Flame squads. All Plasma squads. All Sniper squads. All Close range fire support (Aggressor). All long range fire support (Desolator). And so on. 1st born style flexible squads are not a thing anymore.

[@ShahbazBokhari]

@@rankcolour8780… it made me mad to read that but only because I believe you may be absolutely correct.