Was Primaris Worth It?

[@JachymorDota]

I am no Space Marine player, but I feel the "range refresh" would have been smoother and involved less profiles and confusion if they just... did the range refresh without all the extra steps.

[@212caboose]

I mostly agree- but like I said, I really like the scale increase.

[@Brickfrog427]

So everyone should stop buying space marines until the models they want are replaced? What about people who prefer the old models and don't want them replaced? How are you going to attract sculptors to work on your models if you're telling them that for nearly the next 10 years they will be doing nothing but remaking the exact same space marine models? How would you answer these questions if you were running GW? There are no easy answers. And if you make a choice that could seriously damage money flow, you will just be replaced.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@Brickfrog427 I counter with they are doing it with Gaurd and Tyrnids and the answer is give a few months warning so you can get as much as you want if you hate the new style.

[@JachymorDota]

@@Brickfrog427 I miss the sidefacing monoprint style myself. If your company of choice doesn't supply, you are free to get them elsewhere or make them yourself.

[@Brickfrog427]

@GreenBlueWalkthrough The Space Marine range of models is magnitudes larger than Imperial Guard and Tyranids. Even at the current fast pace of releases, there are still older Space Marine models around. And plenty of older Imperial Guard models never returned at all.

[@bpc_952]

The biggest issue in my eyes with the primaris stuff Is th loss of personalty in the Chapter units

[@RotheraPoint]

That will all come in time, they need to release vanilla stuff for everyone to access (with upgrade sprues as a temporary measure) before they start releasing niche faction specific boxes that won't suit every Space Marine player. Once the basics are all sorted I'm sure the focus will rotate through the factions. The Black Templar boxes are very strong and a sign of things to expect.

[@dimitris2936]

Hey it’ll come soon, look at the black templars

[@rutgaurxi7314]

​@@dimitris2936GW have had half a decade, how much time do they need ? 3D printing stores are out pacing them in variation of output and quality of design.

[@HK4712]

@@RotheraPoint It's been 5 Years. That is more than enough time for people to get frustrated over it, especially since a lot of the new units are actively competing with the older stuff. They should have just put the whole primaris concept in the trash where it belongs and use the new molds to update the normal space marines. Then you could have progressively phased out the old models and replaced them with new ones that fill the now vacant niche. The problem you describe wouldn't even exist.

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

@@HK4712to be fair this is GW, it will come…in 20 years.

[@LittleTemplar98]

I just miss the old "angry face" helmets tbh. I'm probably going to replace all the primaris helmets in my army with the old ones

[@WilhelmScreamer]

Do it, they are so good. Idid it and am not going back

[@TimmsyTFG]

Enjoy your stormtroopers, I am playing space marines, so no

[@TheKsalad]

​@MrTimmsy1986 It's almost like warhammer is completely derived from other Sci-fi tropes, enjoy your clone troopers, freak.

[@pepethunder]

@@TimmsyTFGyou say that like space marines didn’t have frowny helmets for over 30 years

[@plixplop]

The angry SM is one of the most iconic 40k designs, probably the most recognizable for non-fans.

[@vonplackus527]

I have mixed feelings about prima boys. On one hand, I actually like the fact that Imperium under robot's leadership is advancing and at least trying to leave the mudhole they are in by inventing new tech and such. On the other hand, replacing, not upgrading older units leaves a sore taste in my mouth. To add to that, primaris are all pretty much the same which makes sense since its the same armor patttern; that said firstborn had a much greater variety since it was essentially a mix of many previous iterations - they felt like war veterans and heroes while primaris feel more like stormtroopers. I dont hate them but feel like the older direction was much cooler

[@richardbradley2335]

perfectly said..im only getting used to them due to some spiffy paint jobs !!! not so the model...desolation are pretty disgusting though.

[@VengefulJan]

I second this opinion. The part that gets me though is more on the hobby and gaming aspect. Modeling my marines was easy, because I had spare bits everywhere to customize my guys, and transporting them is nicer than the bigger dreadnoughts and vehicles; I'd rather take 9 dreads in one case with the rest of my army than split them up in 2 additional ones. I'm also not a fan of the inflexible mono rolls that they have on the table top. That design choice seems antithetical to the Army's playstyle to me and makes them look to me more like a less flattering copy of Eldar. When they do boast "flexibility", then they are covered in too many superfluous guns, half of which do not give much of an effect in game, but you must still pay for them for balance reasons, so you can take less of them. Their transports, in my view, are terrible at their job, they either don't transport enough, can't take enough, or both. Then there are the duds, like the bunker and the turret. Why do you exist? They look cool, but if I bought everything just on that criteria, I wouldn't be typing this post at all.

[@clinch4402]

An improving Imperium just misses the whole point of 40k. Leave that to the T'au and the Votann.

[@vonplackus527]

@@clinch4402 I can see your point but I think that the addition of characters (especially as powerful as gorrilaman) who want to see the change is a great idea; despite sitting at the top of the empire they can't really do as much as its already rotten. For me, it adds to the grimdark not detracts from it

[@clinch4402]

@@vonplackus527 Fair enough. I think it worked better to sympathise with the lowly guardsman. The space marines were once an elitist remnant of a forgotten time, with many twisted and corrupted without the guidance of their mythic (and still very xenophobic) leaders (Badab War is a fantastic example). Perhaps in theory you could be right, but there isn't much focus on these more corrupt elements so they might as well be absent.

[@MrGBH]

I like the Primaris models I do not like the near-complete removal of Firstborn models I now can't build my Chapter without going to third party

[@plixplop]

I recently dug up a ton of 20+ year old SMs that I have been really excited to repaint and get back into it. The introduction of Primaris has completely soured me on starting this now.

[@Kathrynerius]

Like aren't Space Wolves 90% firstborn models still?

[@markp3000]

@@plixplop same. Guess not pointless for the fun of painting and building/ re establishing the skill. As I understand wont be able to use Firstborn at certain tournament?

[@PsychonautSaiyan]

Or you play OPR and problem solved use your models as you please

[@bego325]

The models are nice, the stretched lore to justify the change is sad. I would appreciate if GW allowed themself to communicate technical and marketing decisions instead of trying to build the lore around it.

[@Kidfry]

Well said. Presumably most of here are adults. Please treat us as such, GW.

[@vlad78th]

They could have done the same without banning older models from official tournaments. One page rule is the way to go for me.

[@psmiddy123models7]

you mean like in age of sigmar? Cos that didnt go down too well

[@Stormeris]

There's no reason why they couldn't just make them firstborn with the same proportions of the new Chaos Marines and Horus Heresy Marines The lore behind Primaris is the worst part

[@hunterreams9992]

I have a reason, they would still look dumb, cartooney and lame just bigger.

[@Stormeris]

@@hunterreams9992 And yet the new Horus Heresy upscaled firstborn marines look the best Space Marines have ever looked and also are perfectly in scale with Chaos Space Marines instead of being randomly a whole foot taller and obviously fatter than the Chaos Steroid Infused Chaos Marines.

[@clinch4402]

@@hunterreams9992 If you think this then you probably don't think much of primaris either since they have a more unified design for cartoons. Really weird take.

[@louieluigi3914]

Gw wanted money. That's your answer.

[@Tajealos]

On one hand, I dig the new upscaled designs On the other hand, their armour looks too uniform I really dig the look of the Tactical Marines with what looks like several different armour marks cobbled together into one suit; dudes with different shins, chestplates, helmets, power packs, and shoulders look a lot more interesting than the same set of armour copy-pasted ten times with different poses

[@Justowner]

I agree, i would like to see some variant part kits. Though I also think there is a good reason for the current uniformity. In setting, that is literally how primaris dropped, and was probably part of why other chapters were worried about the ultramarine-ness of it all.

[@williamgoyette517]

The problem is that Primaris kinda break the scale, like they’ve single-handedly shifted warhammer away from 28mm, which besides making it harder to use other minis as bases for conversions makes it so the models for 40k itself look inconsistent and weird

[@dovlakini1235]

​@@williamgoyette517 hasn't gw always been 32mm

[@williamgoyette517]

@@dovlakini1235 no, they used to be back in the realm of heroic 28, or pure 28 with some forgeworld stuff

[@KameSennin4209]

This

[@shadowmetroid18]

I only started playing warhammer after the primaris were introduced. That being said, I do miss a lot of the more gothic and grim elements from the old marines that have been abandoned for the "tacticool" look. Especially the banners.

[@sempthegreat]

Unless you actually start looking at the Primaris models.. They even have more knightly and gothic crammed in there than old models.

[@chaseherrington]

I Love the banners. I thinks it’s where a lot personal taste and ability are showcased. Same with the gothic, utilitarian aesthetic that made the range unique and original caught my attention

[@clinch4402]

​@@sempthegreat No. A FEW of the primaris models have a veneer of gothic, but the majority lack that feel. Mass produced clean modular armour, picatinny rails everywhere, floaty anti-gravity tanks and physical upgrades that the forces of chaos apparently don't have access to. One unit of Bladeguard just stick out like a sore thumb. By contrast, ye olde tactical squad had access to relic armour, tabards, back banners and unique gear that set each one apart as an individual knight.

[@zoneyx23j]

Thankfully the new Sternguard Vet kit comes with a back banner! Rejoice!

[@TheKsalad]

​@@zoneyx23jSo just another unit that sticks out like a sore thumb among a sea of picatinny rails and copy-pasted Mark X armor

[@kaz9357]

I'm constantly amazed at your ever growing enthusiasm for warhammer. It's refreshing to listen too, even when you are not happy with something they do.

[@kennetheisenbraun5217]

Going to have to go in almost the complete opposite direction. With the firstborn everything being the same base marine at it's core meant every kit was compatible with each other out of the box, no extra cutting or converting required. The older kits were also more customizable by themselves and more unique. In the old sternguard kit you had marks 4, 6, 7, and 8 to work with where as the new one is all mk X with a 7 helmet. Even the basic tactical squad had bits of multiple marks of armor, and the chest and legs being separate means you could take two sets of the same bodies and get 2 distinct marines. When compared to the new intercessors who are all the exact same guy reposed a few times. Primaris also seriously mess up the scale. Example: They're not even in scale with their own vehicles. An updated tactical squad kit would have been better, and a glimpse at that are things like the firstborn space marine heroes. It also doesn't help that the primaris almost all feel soulless when compared to the older marines, even if they're technically higher quality models. Also the vehicles being hover tanks feels out of place with the rest of the imperium, why doesn't the guard and sisters get the too since they have the tech again? Which then goes into the lore side of them which is like a flaming dumpster, especially on release. tl;dr Primaris are too cookie cutter, their lore is bad, and they feel soilless and out of place when compared to what came before.

[@EliWintercross]

Also, I am scandalised that you would want to get rid of the holy, venerable Rhino. That's some outright heresy right there =P

[@Joe_of_Arc_]

I feel like primaries would have worked better as a slight reset and not a full new release.

[@timunderbakke8756]

As someone who is newer and primarily had primaris marines as a result, here’s my thoughts - Really like that primaris kits come with every option the unit can take. I really didn’t like the surprise when I opened my first firstborn kit and discovered I ran out of storm shields from what was legal to take - Really like the posing and sculpts in general, the old marines may be nostalgic for some but just don’t look as good (yes I know a range refresh could have solved too) - I think the older tracked vehicles looked better and I wish we had seen that develop into modern primaris tanks on treads over the hover boats. - I do wish primaris kits had the option for one special weapon in the basic intercessor kit. Assault intercessors sergeants can take the heavier melee weapon for example. My other army is thousand sons and those kits are “bolters plus special guy” and I think that gives the basic unit a chance to punch up just a little Oh, and forget desolation squad. They look terrible.

[@cullenkerr6556]

As someone who started with primaris kits I mostly agree, but whoever changed the helmet needs to get launched into the sun. The Mk X helmet doesn’t have the charisma of the Mk VII

[@Justowner]

​@@cullenkerr6556 The design is based off of Mk IV which was the most advanced form the armor had ever been. I am very fond of Mk IV myself, but i would like to see parts kits for a more Mk VII looking option available. They gave us corvus pattern through the ravenguard kits afterall.

[@jc7997aj]

Yall can always kit bash. It's not mandatory but really is part of the heart and soul of 40k. Now with 3d printing being so amazing from 1:1 models to a trove of bits, units and inspired models. The possibilities are damn near endless. I dont know if you watch Jazza but his Space Bears custom chapter he created is an idea of what's possible in that realm.

[@cullenkerr6556]

@@jc7997aj the problem is that I don’t have a printer and don’t want to buy a bunch of expensive first born kits I’ll never use so I can get the helmets

[@cullenkerr6556]

@@Justowner it’s boring as hell. Give me the mean looking frowny faces

[@punishedbutler3013]

Primaris could have had all their model changes without the lore changes and would have been worth it. The lore changes are what turn me off them. Some of the models aren't to my liking and the style is a bit too generic sci fi but some of the models are decent.

[@praeamble]

Agreed, no need for so much lore convolution when "these are the new Space Marine models" would have sufficed.

[@tristb3225]

I love the lore change

[@robertchmielecki2580]

Agreed. The old, ridiculous SM proprtions belonged in a Nick Park movie not in the grimdark future, but the far-fetched lore behind the change was completely unnecessary.

[@Sxiber]

Lore change forced me to step away from the hobby, I am looking at One Page Rules to get back, but still not sure

[@JohnDoe-xv9du]

Eh, primaris are just extra gene tech. its fine

[@timwatters4008]

If they had just updated the sizes but kept them units the same I believe that they would have gone over much better

[@louieluigi3914]

Then GW would get less money.

[@TheKsalad]

@@louieluigi3914 Meanwhile, GW is doing the exact thing OP said with Horus Heresy and theyre selling BETTER than the Primaris stuff lining all the shelves

[@LifeofSquidMann]

​​@@TheKsalad I gotta see this. Show me the numbers

[@Selvanus]

I do very much prefer Firstborn from a standpoint of: lore, how the models are sculpted, painting fun and what is, in my opinion, a much better and fun building experience They’re really fun to put together, with often lots of options and neat details, and the building experience feels like you’re forced less to go and build clones and have to go less out of your way to make unique models Keep in mind, I actually started the hobby itself when Primaris were starting in 2017 and the start collecting box was my first ever build experience. I had built one other Primaris Intercessor squad after that before getting a firstborn start collecting box and falling in love! So much better and fun to build and paint and these were the stalwart soldiers who have lasted thousands of year of war! You could say I have a bias due to my experience with the 40k games and my absolute love for the Devastators (especially 2nd edition devs with the shoulder mounted heavy bolters) and I overall prefer the older retro models as well above all, but I’ve tried to unbiasedly look at Primaris and I can’t seem to pick out something that I genuinely like I like that they have a better scale? But it’s hardly better as I feel like they’re too slim in some ways and are quite off, too clean, too smooth and feels very, a phrase I’ve decided fits best for the Primaris, too „anime-like” Edit: A kitbasher’s opinion on models; only recently started making an army and it’s all firstborn, got around 1500k points with around another 1500k to go

[@chaosof99]

They just announced the Brutalis kit yesterday, going to be released with the Codex mid-October. Looking forward to getting it.

[@ono1381]

Bruh imma have to buy two. A death company one and a standard Blood Angels one 😂

[@ger5956]

@@ono1381 ⚠️ just a word of warning. The brutalis dread has a pretty annoying design flaw, the arms do not fit into their socket. They require some serious trimming on the pegs of the arm/shoulder joint. ⚠️

[@PlasticAddict301]

​@@ono1381 me too, that dread is badass.

[@212caboose]

I'm loving the scale improvement of Primaris and Leviathan. I'm NOT loving the Primaris story, overall. I mean, other than the taint of Chaos, what's the difference between what Fabius Bile tried to do (improve Space Marines), vs. Belisarius Cawl? I thought "tweaking the gene seed" was considered heresy? I dunno. If they kept the original armor design (like they did with Leviathan Terminators), but did the scale change, it would have been better, and it wouldn't look as different when integrating the two generations.

[@Pat0p]

By the edicts of the current Imperium, it is heresy. The only one allowed to tweak the Astartes is the Emperor or parties authorized by the Emperor.

[@lordhelwintr283]

They wanted two revenue streams from one source.

[@212caboose]

@@lordhelwintr283 I know the REAL reason, LOL

[@GarredHATES]

I love the Primaris, my only issue is the lore. They should have just been First Born still with upgraded armor.

[@moderndavinci6599]

I'm still waiting on an explanation for as to why there are no Primaris chaos yet

[@northerner3861]

@@moderndavinci6599 Fabius Bile hasn't made 'em yet.

[@moderndavinci6599]

@@northerner3861 Dudes cloned two primarchs and yet three new organs is beyond his ability? Wish they would retcon and say "primaris organs cease function upon prolonged Chaos exposure" or something to explain why instead

[@northerner3861]

​@@moderndavinci6599 Pfffft, the CHaos boys got a second wound apaiece, I'm sure they're just gonna keep handwaving it. I mean, it's not like lore is adequately reflected on tabletop- if it was, Blood Angels players could get away with just bring Mephiston and nuking entire armies.

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

@@moderndavinci6599because the dark imperium trilogy states that only 12 years have passed since the fall of Cadia.

[@ericsmith9212]

I don't mind Primaris. I just dislike the lack of customization with them. I would like to see an Intercessor squad become like a tactical squad where I can add a heavy and/ or special weapon. Also, bring back the various characters with jump packs or bikes. It would enable players to run a true Ravenwing or jump pack army.

[@graefx]

The things you listed as success really capture what turns me off from primaris and I didn't even realize it. I miss where it was a normal marine and you're differentiating battlefield role by the combo of what gun they grab and their deployment strategy. To me that created a feeling of choice, agency, and cohesion. Where as now is all the armor segregation and bespoke weapons that doesnt feel unified to me. It might be I just don't care about competitive and I approached 40k as more a mass battle rpg and like customiztion. Before this video, I'd have gone with my normal line. Id have been fine with just new larger kits and no lore updates and a separate rules profile to expedite buying new kits. As someone that used Mk4 helmet and mk8 chest in Space Marine multiplayer, the primaris look a little too clean and generic scifi where as the classic marine look was more iconic and unique. I miss the baroque clunkiness that ads texture and vibe rather than how streamlined primaris look and the new armor detail and changes trying to look intentionally functional rather than added for the sake of themselves. Theres something soulless about Primaris Ive never been able to get around. And that goes triple for the redemptor. Boxnaught for life. And trax before floaty always.

[@northerner3861]

Don't forget that while now every individual sculpt is more dynamic, since there's no modifying them without a lot of knife and glue work, your army actually looks MORE cookie-cutter.

[@kennetheisenbraun5217]

150% agree there. Also boxnaught is bestnaught

[@praeamble]

The models are pretty great, still prefer the old helmets though.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

That's why they're interchangeable.

[@BrotherBarakiel996]

​@@LordCrate-du8zmyea but eventually gw will stop making them.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

@@BrotherBarakiel996 Why? They know the Mk VII is one of not the most iconic space marine helmet designs ever.

[@komma8203]

Brutalis dread is up for preorder this upcoming weekend, all the marines stuff from the boxes comes as single kits then

[@Tarquinn]

Most Primaris Marines feel like less exciting Aspect Warriors.

[@tiberiumnp8030]

The range refresh was definitely worth it and much needed. They could’ve done it without the lore change though, but that doesn’t make me hate primaris.

[@Robot2k]

I couldn't have been happier to find the Primaris stuff when I came back to the hobby in 2020 after about a 15-year break. Sure there's one or two goofy units and I completely agree about the Hellblasters, Desolators and Infernus squads being odd, but by and large it's a really satisfying upgrade.

[@CanuttoXXL]

jaja, con la panmdemia volviste?? yo igual, aunque estuve paradp algo mas, unos 20 años

[@ViktorBrech]

Very good point about the floaty vehicles, hard to square them with the original aesthetic. I guess just pretending they don't exist is one option if you aren't a hardcore tournament player.

[@RogerS1978]

I love the variety and styling of the previous marines along with the special weapons or other troops added to the squads, felt more like a proper military squads with specialisations. The mixes of armour styles made them feel like they've been fighting for centuries and the styling gave them character. The new ones seem to be more tacticool 'lets see what we can bolt onto our boltgun' than the this is the weapon for the job (those god forsaken missile guns for example), for something else we use that weapon. Made it feel like weapons had different uses (especially with loss of blast and vehicle armour). Also the vehicles looked so much cooler and more solid tracked varieties; with the fast skimmers being the softer option.

[@ssenrak8117]

You know why I'm mad at primaris ? I've been back into the hobby this year, and wanted to complete my dream childhood army, partially inspired by dawn of war. But right at the moment I came back, I saw every lovely units I want and need to fulfill my dream getting phased out and replaced by things that I have no emotional attachment too. So now I do feel in the rush to get my army, and it's "because of the primaris marines"

[@Cylindryk]

About combi-weapons on Dev Sarge - yes, more that I can think.

[@TheKsalad]

I use the horus heresy new plastics for classic marines now

[@omnissiahGaspar]

So before you could use devestators in all these interesting ways but now we get to buy different squads that could have clashing asthetics for hyper specific roles!!

[@endersblade]

I don't really know anything about the lore reasons for it, but as someone who just paints 40k minis, I love Primaris. It's nice having them better proportioned.

[@tigirus4656]

I think the new marine takes look good. My issue is that they don't match the theme for the Imperium. The whole point is that they are stuck using antiquated technology and tracked vehicles exemplified that.

[@Jammybee]

"Firstborn was just tactical marines with different gear." GW releases the 20th set of intercessors all equiped with the same special weapon.

[@josephpolk9660]

As a new guy to the hobby: Love me Aggressors. Love me Inceptors. Love me Hellblasters. Simple as. I do prefer old Boxnaughts tho. Redemptor Dread is cool tho.

[@etiennegarant7545]

Your point about the compatibility between the new Primaris vehicles and the more "Gothic" chapters in esthetics: I was feeling the same as you until I started using those nice large flat panels and add all sort of writings, relics, scrolls, purity seals and random gothic doodads to them into "honours walls", they now feel like the vehicles were in use for a long time, and the crew started to add mementos to previous victories and deeds.

[@thejestor9378]

I have been using the bits from the stormfang gunship on the new primaris vehicles as well for my space wolves to make them fit in more with the army as well. They need to come out with some upgrade sprues for the vehicles with chapter specific parts honestly

[@etiennegarant7545]

@@thejestor9378 Black Templars Primaris Upgrades has this cool sword that is meant to fit on the hood of an Impulsor, that is awesome and I wish many chapters had those kinds of things. Hopefully SW also get the BT Primaris treatment and also ends up with a few vehicle bits!

[@thejestor9378]

@@etiennegarant7545 they have an upgrade kit for the infantry, including gravis, but not for vehicles.

[@etiennegarant7545]

@@thejestor9378 Yes I am aware. BT are the only one with a few bits options for vehicle in their upgrade kits (relics, weapons, emblems), I was just wishing that such complete kits would be released for the divergent chapters when they receive their new Primaris stuff someday.

[@NoizeViolation]

They should've just made it a rescale of marines, but of course at the time they were clearly going to 'fantasy battle' the 40k line, then backtracked after the outrage. so we ended up with some really messy lore excusing the rescale, and this odd parity of marine lines. Now we get (imo) some less-than-great primaris redesigns for stuff like marine vehicles, when simply rescaling would have been fine.

[@dylanspencer759]

All they need to do with the primaris models is add all the firstborn helmets and legs and chest pieces (scaled up) and the hatred for them would end overnight. First born look better and are nostalgic but primaris are scaled better.

[@GoufinAround_]

Funny how the brutalis was announced for an individual kit in the pre-order preview for Space Marines yesterday lol

[@calltron56]

To be honest the reason I enjoy deathwatch so much because it mixes so much of the primaris marines, makes the squads feel so much cooler, I hope with the release of the new terminators and assualt marines we get even more combinations, squads and maybe even some updates for the deathwatch model line... hopefully a larger upgrade kit for primaris stuff

[@chrisbatchelor3759]

Absolutely no reason why the "boring old tactical" marines couldn't have just been new primaris sized/proportioned minis. Tactical is superior to intercessors as they have more options. Same with devastators. Can choose JUST lascannons or JUST multimeltas etc if you WANT a specialist squad. Now with Primaris you have no options. You HAVE to take the specialist options you CAN'T take tactically flexible options. Phobos should have just been updates on Scouts. Gravis armour should be the heavier exo suits in their power armour to lug around the heavy weapons. Aggressors could be a ranged fire power heavy terminator squad. Could have jump pack troops with ranged weapon options instead of close combat. Nothing introduced for the primaris range couldn't have been introduced for the existing marines.

[@socalastarte6727]

The Primaris models look waaaay better than the squat marines that were the same height or smaller than Sisters of Battle and Guardsmen. I had two squatty Space Marine armies (Dark Angels and Ultramarines) and my updated versions are a huge upgrade. The only bad thing about the Primaris model line is the terrible lore than went along with it. I wish the lore simply involved Belisarius Cawl inventing new armor and bolters for the existing Space Marines instead of making them 6-12" taller for some reason. They have the same strength and speed, there was no lore reason that makes sense to explain why he made them slightly bigger. I understand that GW was stuck and didn't want to alienate players that had spent years collecting the tiny marines, but the lore was just sooooo lame! I suppose they had to spend 6-8 years in order to phase them out which they are finally doing.

[@SoulCrusherEx]

I and many others who have collected Space marines for 20 years now and ammassed around 20k points of First Born would have accepted the Primaris if it would have been just a rescale like the chaos marines got. But no we got janky and bad lore to their inclusion and it being a replacement for the old guard was a middle finger to the face. Now my whole Dark Angels army is 40k Legends. And the 3k starter box Primaris I've bought over Edition 8,9 and 10 is literally unplayable unless I invest more into it.... For the Lion... for the Emperor

[@malakimphoros2164]

Anyone who disagrees to play with your old models is an asshole. Anyway that's exactly why alternative rulesets exist.

[@CanadianBigMek]

Preach it brother. Having playrd dark agels for 25 years and amasssed the entire First Company and Second Company and Third company of Dark Angels, to watch it all fall to legends litterally made me quit playing space marines.

[@leandromobile6927]

I just hope well get more chapter specific primaris space marines with chapter specific armor ornamentation like space wolves, salamanders, ultra marines ect. Like primaris blood claws for space wolves would be great but i doubt GW is gonna do it

[@timunderbakke8756]

Oh no, I’m sure everyone is eventually going to get primaris of unique goodies. Just like it took a while to do the first time it’ll do that again here

[@graveyardgxblin]

I'd started on my BTs after the Primaris launch, so I don't actually own any firstborn marines. I do love some of the old sculpts, and want them for my army, but I much prefer the new Primaris range.

[@zolniu]

Primaris vehicles are also stupid in the sens of how many weapons are on them. It crosses the line of being cool way too much onto the goofy cartoon teritory. I just can't take them seriously whit all those barrels pointing in all directions. They look like designed by Ork Mekaninks - MORE DAKKA!

[@andrewtaylor9759]

An interesting take on Primaris and it's nice to hear the good the bad and the ugly about it all. Having the unique specialised units is where they work best as you say, not just with intercessors copied and pasted holding different weapons. For instance, why isn't the flamer unit one with lots of heat protective gear, or anything to make them more interesting? Really, in the case of hellblasters, desolators and infernus, the old-school idea of having heavy and special weapons in the squad would've been a lot better. Or a 'primaris' devastation squad (with a primaris cherub of course).

[@Skumgummiii]

I think the reason GW made primaris is because they assumed people wouldn't replace their current tactical squads with larger tactical squads. I think with the release of the new sternguard veterans it kind of shows that the premise was wrong, I think "primaris" would have sold just as well (if not even better) if they had just released larger scale versions of the units. The lore for primaris felt very ham-fisted as well.

[@timunderbakke8756]

That is probably correct, that GW presumed the only way to sell new marines was to change it somehow. I suspect the reason sternguard came back this way is actually because of the primaris backlash. They can’t put the genie back in the bottle, but they can try and minimize the differences and try to say “pay no attention to that, here look all marines are the same now”

[@Dirt1061]

To me Space Marines feel like a tactical squad with multiple weapons in the group would be best. Marines should be fast moving and both generalists but with tons of specific tools for the job.

[@JanitorScruffy]

Especially because even in other armies in factions in game, let alone real life, you don't just give everyone the same weapon, you have specialists and special weapons.

[@MrFiremagnet]

Their whole purpose was to softly reboot space marine range, both to attract newcomers and force old players to buy new stuff. So they accomplished their purpose perfectly imho.

[@mattcastro2584]

I like the primaris changes. I do wish that those 10 man same weapon squads came with a special heavy version weapon for one of the dudes though. Like a heavy plasma for hellblasters. And that the sergeant could take a power weapon for style points

[@breezierchip8355]

Primaris is, in my opinion, a fantastic bit of lore that allowed for a much needed range refresh of the kinda squat, short and stubby lil marines. Those old models are cool and have a great charm to them but don't look as good as other modern kits, and these new fellas are just so damn well designed. Beyond that, Guilliman actually FINALLY making the imperium advance again after the whole Horus thing is cool, and the internal conflict between firstborn fans and primaris fans in the imperium itself is really engaging.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Lmao, do you also think the end times was good writing?

[@astral2282]

@@calebbarnhouse496 Because fuck people that are actually happy about something amirite

[@clinch4402]

What makes the lore fantastic? Why is the Imperium advancing again a good thing? It's stagnation is what made the setting unique. We already had the Horus Heresy when we wanted to see the Imperium implode at the height of its power.

[@breezierchip8355]

@@clinch4402 It's that it's something new - I want to see what I can only describe as negative progress - things aren't getting better, per se, but they are changing.

[@clinch4402]

@@breezierchip8355 Fair enough. Personally I think the advancing storyline serves to make the universe feel really small, and reminds me a lot of the Disney reboot of Star Wars. The primarchs are coming back, all still alive and well. Special characters too. Imo creating more Badab War scenarios would have been the way forward to keep things feeling fresh. On a galactic scale the war felt small, but it had so much depth and focus that it really highlighted the grim elements of 40k better than the current Indomitus Era.

[@plixplop]

The ONE storytelling rule regarding 40k Imperium technology is that all the best stuff is thousand-year old relics that nobody knows how to make anymore. These items are basically magical artifacts, and immeasurably valuable. At best, any new manufacturing is haphazardly copying old technology that is not fully understood, which is why the Tech-Priests "pray" their instructions - they don't entirely grasp what they're doing, but they know the precision of the steps is so critical that they regard it with religious reverence. It's supposed to be the equivalent of the real-life Dark Age, when an illiterate peasant might have torn down an abandoned Roman building to get bricks to build himself a pigpen. The idea that the best stuff is now BRAND NEW tech is a fundamental failure by GW to understand their own IP.

[@Willehable]

Hm, unfortunautely I can't say I agree this take very much. It's a bit weirdly put and doesn't really talk about the change other than basically "this is a primaris and I (generally) like it better". Why is it better or not? Like yeah sure of course a more modern model but a remade pose is going to look better, but but they could've just been regular firstborn tactical marine upsized and rescaled? Having increased specialization in primaris but reduced flexibility is subjective on whether you like it or not, it's just that's supposed to be what space marines excel at, being flexible and reacting well to any situation or circumstance both in lore and on the tabletop. Which is also something you can't meaningfully talk about, the change from firstborn to primaris without acknowledging the different ways the change affects the hobby, like lore, modeling and "tactically" for a lack of better word. For example, I think almost everyone who cares dislike the primaris inclusion in the lore, most people probably think the models look good overall (again, newer models, of course they do) and have different takes on the army composition and building. Second, worth it to whom? GW are selling tons of new, expensive sprues that they can charge a lot more for than just another squad of tactical marines who used the spare rocket launchers you had lying around. In the long run it will deteriorate trust in their brand but maybe that cost is so small and far in the future that it's worth it? Or worth it to you as a consumer? As a hobbyist? Gamer? A more reasonable take and argument would have been something like "Primaris changed A, B And C with the models, game and setting. Different people have different opinions on all of these such as D, E and F and they're varying degrees of important to different people as well. I personally think the change was worth it/not worth it because I am mainly in G category and H impacts me the most and it does so in a positive/negative way." And of course explain and elaborate a bit more, like why it was likely made, how it could've been improved and so on.

[@redfoxvoice]

Nicely put!

[@Willehable]

@@redfoxvoice Appreciate it! I was a bit worried I unintentionally came across too negatively.

[@tristanlee8495]

I don’t really have many issues with the aesthetic outside of the downright bizarre choice to get rid of the iconic scowl helmet. My issues come from the way all these new units have fundamentally changed the way space marines play. Everything as Jay said used to be built off the tactical marines and forces came down to how you organised your units where as now everything is built from specialised units. You can’t get a devastator squad; you have to get a squad of hellblasters and a squad of desolation marines. And as an Eldar player in particular this is frustrating because they’ve effectively stolen our unique gimmick of having lots of specialised little units that all excel at their own thing, while space marine tactical squads are a more Jack of all trades unit.

[@Ayoosi]

IMO: saving Primaris would be simple. Astartes are supposed to be incredibly flexible, so use that as your building blocks. Start with a basic Intercessor squad. Up to 2 special or heavy weapons of the same type for every 5 models, Sgt can take any Sgt wargear or another special weapon of the same type. That builds your basic squads. Other options could swap any bolt rifle for a bolt pistol and chainsword, but must be taken for the entire squad. Special weapons then are limited to pistol-type weapons and specialty grenades. That makes your assault squads. These squads can have a Fast Attack option upgrade package that adds jumppacks and moves the squad into FA from Troops, or whatever. Want heavy infantry? Take an upgrade package that adds Gravis armor and changes the weapon upgrades to heavy weapons, and moves the squad to an Elite choice. It's a really simple change but I feel it would help the army feel more cohesive and make more sense overall.

[@johnmartin7705]

The tactical squad mirrors the modern “squad weapon” concept where the riflemen support the squad weapon and serve to keep in functional. Primaris borrow more from WWI and earlier where a rifle squad is supported by specialist squads. So, the regular Intercessor squad is supported by a specialist squad of flamethrowers rather than attaching to the squad. Horus Heresy is like that too.

[@SlowPokey30K]

My only problem with primaris is that I don’t like the mark 10 armor

[@TravelingAnvil]

As a person starting this hobby recently - I'm very glad I got in post primaris. I like these models so much more.

[@tcotter82]

I start Warhammer a few months ago. All I know really is the primaris models. So for me at least I love them. Although I would mind one day building a classic marine army painted in that 1987 style.

[@hendrikmoons8218]

Love all my primaris. And to me, 10 man squads with the same weapon make sence. Imagine, being part of an elite army, not squad and half your squad cannot shoot because they have infantry weapons. lol. I have seen this a thousand times. An oldschool firstborne marine heavy weapon squad with 4 different weapons, because that was in the box. Glad that is a thing of the past. All my First Born are promoted to WH30k.

[@coneman844]

I think a cool way to kitbash the flamer marines would be to give them like heavy duty gloves and like a welder helmet. That would be cool.

[@Yakkahboo]

the Primaris vehicles are really the bit that hurts. I dont mind things like Hellblasters, but I hate the floaty float and the tanks have way too many guns on them. And lets not talk about the land speeder replacements. Flying cereal boxes look awful. My Ravenwing are panicking right now, now that the old stuff has gone the way of the dodo.

[@killingtime9283]

Upscaling 👍 Primaries 👎 Lore changes 👎 New vehicles 👎 Personally I do not want the "story" to progress. For me 40k is a setting in which you experience smaller stories, through books, games and the tabletop, where the fate of the universe/imperium is always balanced on a razors edge For me the firstborn aren't so much nostalgic, they are iconic, they are _the_ space marines. Same with the dreadnought. I now this is all subjective though

[@averyunusualpyro7843]

I like the designs of the Primaris intercessors and how they are much bigger than the older models, but they are much less customizable. The tactical squad has so many different combinations of weapons and equipment that you could use to make each space marine different from one another to make them truly feel like your own space marines. While the intercessors are just marines with bolters.

[@Lothi66]

Well, my first space marines were primaris and I'm very happy because they look much better than their "older" brothers. They have their flaws, as you said, but I still think they are a step in the right direction.

[@McBurnside6380]

Fact: They wanted all of the Space marine players to rebuy their armies. Most of the Primaris additions are redundant. The new Primaris are just goofy looking with goofy names that all end in "or": intercessors, inceptors, eradicators, aggressors, eliminators, infiltrators, incursors, invictor, impulsor, repulsor, annihilator, destructor, gladiator, etc. etc. 7th edition codex had 4 types of bolter, not including heavy or pistol. The 9th edtion codex has about 29 different types. How many armor types are there now? 12? It's stupid out of control. Also, Grav Tanks? That's Tau and Eldar tech. Tracked vehicles are what differentiated the human vehicles and made them cool. Plus the Primaris have an awful cartoonish look having lost that aggresive edge of the earlier models.

[@brianhall4182]

I don't mind the primaris. The lore behind them is kind of myeeeeh for me but the models look lovely. The one caveat is that I hate the helmets. I bought a whole bunch of spare tactical heads just so I can have primaris with the proper triangle mouth piece. Also I prefer the old boxnaught to the fancy new redemptors. It looks more like the brutal walking coffin that it's supposed to be.

[@Dstinct]

The only reason I am bummed out with Primaris is because it means I can no longer use many of the 2nd Ed models my father painted for me, such as Marneus Calgar, my tac squads, and specialist chars. They still have a special place in my display cabinet, but it would have been cool to bust em out once in a while.

[@LeRossSawin-Porter-tt6hr]

It would be cool if you could buy stuff like infernus marines, then plug and play them as needed into intercessor squads. or have them still as standalone units. I do agree with 10 marines with the exact same weapons makes no sense. while the newer marines are more proportioned, looking at the tactical squad box and seeing how much stuff it came with was so cool. i like making each squad and putting name and faces on them as i build them

[@gammafighter]

I don't really know about the lore, but Grey Knights are only Space Marines that I like the look of. The main thing holding me back from buying a kit is that they look so smol.

[@ThomasGallinari]

Was Primaris worth it? - for the models? Yes - for the lore and the game? No

[@zolniu]

I don't get the "form models" take. We could have get true scale Sapace Marines without Primaris ever existing. Look at Chaos - they did it there.

[@TheFinaltext]

​@zolniu i think that's the point he is making,

[@ThomasGallinari]

@@TheFinaltext exactly 🙂 Primaris gave us true scale Marines. But it could have worked without calling them Primaris.

[@EliWintercross]

As someone who played Marines since 3rd edition, I hate Primaris stuff. I have decided to instead finally switch over to making a Biel-Tan Eldar army, something I have long thought about doing.

[@daveeol1987]

Same I'm going Alaitoc

[@MrAtomicwalrus]

A lot of the Primaris infantry is good, but good lord their vehicles are garbage.

[@turtlehead8386]

Looks or gameplay? The looks are not so grim dark anymore for me, which is sad.

[@mapsmaps2215]

@marmite_popsicle predator tank is awesome, I would have rather they went with that but just up-scaled it and made it look more “tankier”

[@TheKsalad]

@@turtlehead8386 You're not allowed to give *new* toys bad rules

[@Dangerpurple]

There isn't a single primaris Model I find cooler or better than an old space marine model aesthetically, outside of the size increasement. In fact many of the designs I find outright stupid. The rollcage having invictor "stealth" walker baby stroller, the space marine suit in a space marine suit hat on a hat, the oversized rocket boots heavy weapons teams, desolation squads 3 in one slices dices and minces stupid oversized gun, ect ect et-fucking-cetera. Unfortunately none of the models have grabbed me, many repel me, and the lore disgusts me. I find it stupid, it's like seeing a "cool" reboot of something that was already cool, they should of just made space marines scale accurate and left it at that. But the creation of space marines by GW was like saying space marines were not cool enough and needed to be injected with some high octane tacticool nonsense, and they literally wrote into the lore that they were better than space marines in every way. They even made every space marine of note into one, despite making the lore that it was hard/impossible for a space marine depending on age to become one. Having the custodies strong arm chapters into accepting it is a classic writing technique of corporations who own IPs into providing quick in universe credibility for them that people can point too constantly when anyone nay says their plausibility or legitimacy. Mark my words, we will have a primaris primarch, and it will be the dumbest fucking thing GW has ever done.

[@PandorasFolly]

Always thought one of the options for equipping the primaris inceptors should have been a meltagun loadout. Drop or bounce right next to the tank and heat ray it

[@benjamin2629]

I like the primaris models, however it felt like it invalidated my SM army, the moment they were released I knew there would be a time they would be gone. It kinda just stuck with me and the old SMs ended up in a box doing nothing. I don't like the units were all models have the same special weapon, SMs were always mixed use units, Eldar were always single focused units.

[@Max-vp5sn]

I only paint models I don’t play. I wouldn’t have gotten into the hobby if they still had their dopy old proportions, so I prefer them.

[@RoyalFlush1998]

Same dude, I just got into painting so these newer models are all I know, I’ve seen older models and yeah oof some look cool but most look pretty goofy in comparison

[@TheThomasCW]

As much as old-hammer has it's charm, I really love the Phobos pattern boots. They look 'fainty' medieval, more like actual knight greaves with the cut around the calf, and the ankle covers. Reminds me of Link's leather boots from Ocarina of Time. It blends the sci fi dystopia of the imperial guard with the gothic horror of the sisters of battle. Kind of wish they all had it.

[@mouthyschannel2474]

To be fair about the vehicles, the old tank WW1 & 2 look is more suited to the Guard so I'm personally fine with the newer floaty ones being what Space marines get if it means also giving Guard more of their identity. I agree though that I see arguments for both ways but like... Now I wanna see unique models for other factions that isn't the Rhino in the regiment colour scheme, I want to see a Custodes transport that really FEELS like a Custodes transport, ya know?

[@Xatxitor]

Now they can make ways to customise primaris. It's possible to make themed armies like eradicator and consecrator salamanders, Outriders White scars, jump-packs raven guards or terminators deathwing all in true scales. We are back to step one with Primaris witch is awsome

[@anthonylaiferrario]

All of the positives you mention could have been accomplished without mentioning the word primaris at all. All the new sculpts are bigger and more detailed than the old ones… fine. Introduce new units that are more specialized and credit recovered STCs or belisarius cawl… fine. Update the vehicles and add more hovercraft… fine. None of this requires a slow, unpredictable invalidation of all the old units. Just update them and let people continue to use the old models!!!

[@seanwilliamson5720]

I like primaris marines. I do wish they had some cooler tank options. I have played with impulsors and repulsars, but I find other vehicle options for other armies seem better. I could be wrong.

[@goofyblocks]

I miss helmet variety and chest plate variety.

[@michaeljdauben]

I've always been something like a "second tier" Space Marines player. I usually had a Space Marines army, but they were never my favorite or primary army. Eldar + SM or Tau + SM or most recently Necrons + SM. Now, that secondary interest has shifted totally over to the Primaris range, however, and I don't see buying or fielding any "first borne" ever again (except the new Terminators). One hole is think that still exists, though, is a primaris rhino equivalent. A hover APC that can carry a full square of Primaris Marines plus a Primaris character or two. As you say, the old tracked rhino just does not match the style of the new Primaris vehicles.

[@melcore4277]

The primaris model style is what got me to pull the trigger on getting into the tabletop, personally I like the models.

[@OmegaLittleBob]

I like the Hellblasters. 10 Marines with big honkin plasma guns is rad!!! But the the 10 Infernus Marines is a bit weird. Especially since we already have the Flamer Aggressors. In a hypothetical real world tactical sense they'd be pretty limited in use and vulnerable if caught by something with longer range than them. Makes more sense to give the Aggressors flamers since they can take a beating while they close the gap. Similarly Desolators feel weird not being in Gravis. Now a Primaris Tactical squad with say, one flamer and one desolater, that could be cool.

[@alastair4839]

I agree the models are just damn better scale wise - the old marines just always looked a bit silly! My biggest gripe is the naming conventions, I mean the worst two are: - "inceptors" (one who initiates things) - "Intercessors" (one who intervenes on behalf of others) - "Vanguard" (leading the way) Its just gibberish, I can never remember what the hell they are... and then they break down intercessors into Assault, Heavy, jump pack etc... I don't see why they can't just be called "Primaris tactical marines" - and then you customise them as you want. If you want 10 Meltas or plasma guys - its going to cost you, but you can do it. Or if you want cheap 10 boltguns... no problem.... if you want a mixture to keep the cost down, but need something that can take out a tank - easy, just drop 2-3 melta guys in there...that's why they are called "tactical marines, you can adapt them as you want. The smaller squads I get, like Eons says, they are hard to make, bigger/expensive armour - heavier weapons etc, squad of three... nice. I think the flamer guys should just be a specialised primaris assault squad, equipped with chainswords, bolt pistols and flamers - but at the cost of setting that up.... perhaps saving some cost on the jump packs (though perhaps they are just specialised tactical marines at that point).

[@dawsonwhite5713]

i dunno about the opening argument. instead of tactical marine with thing, now its just intercessor with thing. assault int = intercessors with swords, hellblasters = itns with plasma, infernus = ints with flamer, desolation marines = ints with t-shirt cannon. so on and so forth

[@Cheezewiz99508]

As someone who stopped playing on edition 3.5 and who considered getting back into warhammer the changes are horrible. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't ending first born units. I agree if they had just sized up the models and left them as is lore wise it would have been better. You totally could have made tac marines and give them special rules so they are equivalent to the different primaris units. When you ask of it is a cash grab, 100000% it is. 10000 points of first born? Screw you buy new stuff.... It is typical of Games Workshop so it shouldn't be a surprise. It is just disappointing.

[@Miniferret91]

Jay's always on point, good takes here that I agree with. I think Space Marines lost a bit of their aggressive brutality with the shift to a more tacti-cool style. A floaty tank just can't compete with a massive tracked vehicle grinding its way through a blizzard of enemy fire, crunching over broken terrain to disgorge impossible-to-kill space knights. That's something you can't get anywhere else other than 40k! I don't think it helps that the new tanks are festooned with so much weaponry. On the one hand, only marines would have enough mental bandwidth to operate the 10 different guns/missiles/chaf launchers simultaneously, but I can't help but picture them madly mashing buttons and pulling triggers inside. Land raiders are simple and brutal, and show that astartes don't need all the fancy tech to obliterate their foes. That also champions the old feel that when the crazy dark age weapons come out of the relic armoury, shit is going down!

[@duploman1000]

I miss tactical/devastators with the mixed squads. I've been kitbashing and moving between kits so each primaris marine has a squad a role. anti tank specialist, the squad automatic weapon, the fire team leader with the grenade launcher etc. its far more interesting that way. I also kitbash the vehicles a lot to make them look more practical. Miss treads but I like the repulsor. It suffers from weapon clutter though so I separated the launcher from the turret and opted out of the top gunner. Some vehicles just look really silly with primaris head sticking out the top. If I ever got that model i'd put something else there.

[@Penguish211]

Primaris Space Marines should have just been their own codex.

[@stevekeenan9673]

I painted 100 firstborn ultramarines... I just don't know the ratio of how many should have the red helmet or red white stripe... I learned 1 needs to be mechanicus Mars red, and I think 1 apothecary white, but still have to do the decals

[@Kathrynerius]

I quite like the new primaris models. Much more detailed, look less silly, and look easier to decorate with green stuff, paint, and assemble.

[@MountainKing88771]

I just got into 40k and don't have a problem with primaris models, but being a space wolf player, I find myself buying more of my first born units because they just have so much more space wolf flavor over generic primaris.

[@ono1381]

I like primaris but i think a lot of the old stuff had a lot of 'soul'. You kind of see it in the art as well. I much prefer pre-2010s era art. Current SM art looks a little same-y.

[@Cylindryk]

Reason I don't like Primaris vehicles, is mostly because... they float. They look more like Tau vehicles, not Imperium - remember, that Imperium should be forgeting all of their technology, and innovations are very big heresy. All of Primaris thing is... like telling all of 40k lore just doesn't matter.