Interview with Lucy Letby whistleblower Dr Fiona MacRae | The Trial of Lucy Letby | Podcast

[@purplepoppyz]

As a nurse I have seen what this doctor says, throughout the NHS not just in that particular hospital. Bullying over petty things is rife whilst ignoring serious issues. Nursing band 8s and above think they are above medical staff and not only bully the nurses on the wards but also medical staff. These are people with no special skills and if you got rid of the lot of them, no one would notice apart from the lack of bullying. The bullying as well as feeding their own egos, also serves to create an environment of fear where staff are afraid to raise issues and do not dare challenge them.

[@mazklassa9338]

The incompetence is break taking

[@y2ksurvivor]

This leaves room for all sorts of medical malpractice, including the intentional variety.

[@LadyDiamondIsHereNow]

These Narcissists, and other ne'er do wells, then back each other up, whether above or below them or are obstructive ,or some what obstructive, and dismissive in some way when problem staff members are pointed out to them to deal with. Even if not directly involved in the problem staff member's problematic performance, they arrive, like football fans eager to give a kicking to those potentially kicking one of their side who has been an ass

[@DepakoteMeister]

As a current NHS employee I agree 100%. There is zero accountability for senior staff, they are often lacking simple competencies, and bullying is commonplace.

[@eveapple4928]

We need to be ever vigilant against narcissists and bullies getting to the top of organisations on statistical results alone, and ensuring they are muzzled by different personality types around them. Balance is key. For two long we have fostered and allowed poor leadership cultures in important institutions - we must change this, lives depend on it

[@jmum189]

Statistical results isn`t how they get there, those people don`t normally perform. Its office politics that gets them there. Managers with weak personalities (which is most of them regardless of what they claim) don`t promote competent employees because they will be better than them. They promote average employees who have no backbone, who don`t speak out, and who won`t rock the boat in other ways.

[@deborahbergman3566]

@@jmum189 Yes mam. Whether it's retail services or human services ... medical, there is a toxic culture of managers who merely hire "weak" folks but average enough to get the job done. It's based on ignorance and yes, GREED. They don't want to be challenged over poor conditions. Here in the US, just in the medical industry, professionals can become so desensitized against not only patients, including the elderly, but they will find a reason to fire a nurse or even someone in residency in order to not be blamed for poor management. This with LL in England was so obviously the case. Employees suffered...and definitely these very young patients.

[@2008marin]

Not sure how the reward system ,for managers , works in the UK but I suspect their inexcusable behavior revolves around protracting their positions,their salaries ,bonuses and public reputation. The reward systems developed for executives and managers has been set up ( by executives) to provide huge benefits for conforming to the company line. No doubt Letbys father was vocal in threatening publication .So essentially these managers were protecting their own necks .

[@eveapple4928]

Well let’s hope this statutory enquiry puts some managerial necks on the block. Making this an enquiry with legal teeth was definitely the correct move

[@Ava22159]

@@2008marin Yes I think the fact the parents threatened this speaks volumes. Who would take parents to a work dispute.

[@houseofmali2659]

I love this Doctor she spoke exactly true. I don’t work in that hospital but I have experienced nearly everything she said. It’s the culture that needs to change.

[@joshb7326]

Makes me feel sick thinking about those managers, and how they escaped accountability as soon as they knew the ship was sinking

[@normankennith7919]

LUCY MAY NOT EVEN BE GUILTY!!! THE HOSPITAL STAFF KNEW HOW TO GANG UP ON HER BY REPRESNTING THE PROSECUTION IN COURT! IT'S POSSIBLE THAT ONE OIF THOSE THROWING DARTS AT LUCY COULD BE THE CULPRIT!! IT MAY NOT EVEN BE MURDER BUT MANSLAUGHTER!!!

[@lindamessam8784]

The managers should be brought to account and jailed if found guilty but it’s not going to happen

[@normankennith7919]

the management & the doctors are guilty, not lucy!! there is a cover up & she is the scapegoat!!@@lindamessam8784

[@paulroberts7544]

Makes me feel sick that an innocent nurse could be spending the rest of her life in prison because of a spat between psycho doctors and psycho managers. Life i prison for murdering babies that have autopsy findings of 'natural causes'. This country is in BIG trouble.

[@normankennith7919]

billions of women have abortions for various reasons, which makes them baby killers in my opinion!! lucy is the scapegoat in a cover up by the management & doctors!!@@paulroberts7544

[@hivemindconcussion2173]

Bullying induced stress has a trickle down effect and affects patient care. A optimistic and caring nurse is essential to a patient’s healthy attitude and recovery.

[@IbnTufayl1]

Many thanks to this doctor for coming forward 🙏 This culture of obssessing over minutia--such as the colour of Crocs--and change for change sake is everywhere, not just in hospitals. It's a kind of managerial plague, regurgitated by those who aren't smart or talented enough to do anything but hold meetings and shuffle papers.

[@TarotPolitics]

Can you imagine… babies being murdered and the problem is a doctor eating a pack of crisps.

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

@@TarotPoliticsyes. It is hideous and needs absolute exposing

[@colinluckens9591]

....and waste money on pointless gimmicks

[@2008marin]

This culture is the same in US hospitals . After 40 years of working as a Registered Nurse ,I have seen huge changes in hospital systems . Once the corporate world got its claws into hospital management ,the working environment has progressively increased in hostility as the divide between the working hospital staff and the managers grew . Dr’s,nurses ,therapists , clinical teams ,cleaners, volunteers etc focus on people …..humans . Executive and managers don’t . Their reward system is always financial so bullying,threatening,intimidation and oppressive working environments have become their main means of control under the guise of …..excellence !!

[@-Reagan]

I really hope positive change will come of this horrifying aftermath. It’s not just Countess of Chester. It’s so pervasive in the medical field and this is one field where it costs lives and affects people forever ♾

[@musicfuhrer]

It's pervasive everywhere in tory Britain. The U.K is fast becoming a failed state.

[@janelowe4128]

Omg this dr is 100% correct It was exactly the same in my trust

[@franziskani]

Wait: when the manager already suspected Letby could be guilty after all, he said in a very cavalier manner (asked about accountability): They will have to find me in the South of France (retired). So then he could put professional trouble into perspective. But when it was only babies collapsing - then it was not possible to get the police involved, 'cause _reputation_ of the hospital. It was of course his coming to terms with the fact that he had made a catastrophic and very avoidable mistake, never mind real and lasting reputational damage. He was not bothered by having helped Lety with her murder spree.

[@SkepticalTeacher]

In teaching we have the same problem with bullying managers as the health service, it would seem to be endemic in many sectors, unfortunately. And it of course leads inevitably to serious safeguarding issues, because people either raise concerns and they're swept under the rug, or they're bullied out of raising a concern, or they don't bother raising the concern in the first place since they assume nothing will be done.

[@bakedbeans9546]

Oh yes! I know someone who disclosed serious abuse to a primary school teacher who did absolutely nothing about it, the teacher also left bruises on a 10 year old lads arm when she lost her temper during our school play rehearsal, nothing was ever done. Out of curiosity I looked up this teacher online a few years ago and discovered she's now deputy head of that same school, so much for "safe guarding" !

[@jeannettestreet5521]

As a general nurse of 40 years experience. This case is horrific and compelling to listen to within these podcasts. Excellent interview with Dr Fiona.

[@marypartridge5154]

Well the managers listened to Lucy Letby!!!!

[@kellyegan9824]

I don’t understand why and how they listened to LL over 7 neonatologists and pediatricians.

[@robinhood4640]

@@kellyegan9824 You make it sound like it was a question of, do we believe "LL over 7 neonatologists and pediatricians". The overall conclusion from all the evidence concerning the situation indicated that LL was not killing them. They probably thought the doctors were misleading themselves because they couldn't explain the increase in fatal and non fatal complications. In the middle of the 19th century thousands of women and babies were dying because doctors didn't know something. They thought they had adequate knowledge to explain what was happening, but they were very much mistaken. It that case, there were thousands of doctors and surgeons, who for 40 years, were talking complete nonsense and the correct thing to do was to tell them to STFU. If you think you should listen to someone because they are a doctor, and completely ignore every aspect of reality, that indicates they are talking crap, you are the reason doctors are able to continue believing they actually know enough about the human body, to put someone in prison for life, without any real evidence other than they are convinced she did it.

[@ecowifey4603]

And her dad for some reason!

[@Bought_by_the_blood]

@@ecowifey4603mason thats why

[@BobK5]

Being found guilty doesn’t mean she committed those crimes as a fact, just like being found not guilty doesn’t mean a person didn’t commit the crime in question as a fact.

[@iffysd9864]

Cope

[@musicfuhrer]

Protecting the reputation of the hospital trust, and thus their own salary, was all that mattered to the hospital managers.

[@susansaxon4780]

Protecting patients should always be the highest priority of all NHS staff and if it’s not then they are in the wrong job. I’ve been a nurse now for over 42ys, l started at the bottom and worked my way up always with the philosophy of patients first always.

[@gracelovesme-r3j]

Who would have thought, that such a pernicious atmosphere could exist in a hospital setting? I will never look at the NHS, with the same eyes, ever again.

[@abelis644]

Who would have thought? Nurses and doctors and staff everywhere. I'm a Canadian retired RN, similar bullying happens everywhere! There is a saying, "Nurses eat their young" and that's just the Nurses. Crap often happens from management. In a nursing home where I worked, the staff was pleasantly surprised to be asked to decide what colours the halls should be painted. We asked the residents since they were the ones living there & they asked for bright colours as grey, beige etc was boring and even dangerous because of the elderly people's depth perception etc So we made our report happily suggesting various colour schemes throughout the facility. When the new paint job was done, everythjng was beige and grey. Oh, we were told, bright colours didn't fit the facility's professional look... What??? Wtf??? What idiotic sense did that make? Why bother asking us? Management played games like that. Our residents were disappointed. And they paid to live there!!!

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

@@abelis644yes and they ticked a lot of boxes on their consultation forms. Imagine if all the hours were costed for that. The arrogance is staggering and your example is at the “ lower end of offending”

[@TheyCallMeJol]

@10:10 I am glad the bullying is now being recognised. I was bullied in the NHS. I had to leave because it bought on anxiety. I'm now out of work struggling due to these bullies that are left to look after vulnrable adults and children. The management blamed it on my mental health. I was fine until I started the hospital, I left a nursing home I worked happily in for 4 years to go to the hospital so I could earn more money to get by, but it's the worst thing I ever did. Bullying effects people's life's like it has mine. I'm not the same person I used to be, because of the bullying by staff.

[@firstdecanpisces2495]

I understand this comment completely - I was mercilessly bullied (along with 2 other colleagues who also left the CMHT we worked in). I’ve had a long career in MH and have worked all over the UK and beyond, with nothing even vaguely approaching what I experienced there. It’s horrible to accept and so degrading to consider that NHS MH staff would target and revel in the discomfort of their colleagues…these people ruined my confidence and sense of self-esteem…I left the NHS for a year and needed that to recover my mental health. I’m now back in a different team in a 100% remote working post - it’s definitely the only scenario I could imagine myself being able to work in now. The only positive I can take from this nightmare is that my sense of compassion and care for all humanity is more acutely active now ❤

[@nobo.314]

Jfc this is so messed up ❤ if I ever saw a nurse bullying another while a patient I would have to say something to them

[@bakedbeans9546]

I recently attended a hospital appointment and saw a young NHS worker on her knees crying while being consoled by a male colleague, my thoughts go out to all of you who have to work within that toxic culture ❤

[@MissLibra-ce8qe]

I’ve been in nursing for 20 years and I can remember when one of our consultants (who was on call and tending to an emergency at the time) was literally chased down the main corridor of the hospital by our then senior manager shouting at her to stop. The consultant did indeed stop and assumed there must be something very urgent if she’s being chased and shouted at to stop. The manager then proceeded to reprimand the consultant for wearing her engagement ring telling her she’d noticed it earlier that day but hadn’t had the opportunity at the time to tell her to remove it. We are reprimanded for wearing wedding rings (I work in an outpatient setting) we are even reprimanded for wearing socks that aren’t dark/plain. Heaven forbid we wore bright coloured, patterned socks! As for eating/drinking…..we are not allowed to have a drink in view of patients. In fact, we aren’t even allowed to have one where patients can’t/don’t see. I was waiting for a patient to arrive one morning. At this point there were absolutely no patients around, and I wasn’t in view of any passing patients. I took my phone out of the draw to check I’d not received any messages from my children and my manager saw me on my phone. She then explained that being on your phone at work was as dangerous, and exactly the same as driving a car whilst being on the phone! Please….make that make sense?!!!

[@maggieswithenbank6709]

We know where the Medical Director went-retired in France with a big fat pension. Where did Tony Chambers, CEO, go? What about the Director of Nursing? All of them need to be made accountable and to ensure they never work in a position of trust again!

[@TimewillTell1481]

They should have their time in court for costing lives.

[@janlittle2148]

They are denying everything now. what a surprise.

[@ds5398]

Very true - worked in London Ambulance Service for 15 years - same management structure and attitude all the way through the NHS... lack human touch and common sense.

[@kristiemcinnes304]

We have a bully in our department too. Terrible

[@glenyshanlon5112]

They said lessons should be learnt after the Angel of death and we have this again things need to change and people need to be listened to and taken very seriously.

[@nursesophie5254]

Typical, ignore the monstrous fish in the pond and concentrate on the minnows, much easier to catch

[@sarahwales6276]

Yep, always the low hanging fruit.

[@vittoriahawksworth8117]

These managers were pursuing the small stuff in order to look like they were ever so efficient and it helped them cover up the major problem. Ironically in order to protect the Trust’s reputation they totally trashed it.

[@bakedbeans9546]

I worked in the private care industry and this sort of conduct is also common there. Constantly holding meeting regarding uniforms and petty policies yet if we raised any safe guarding concerns regarding the conduct of colleagues we were quickly met with hostile attitudes, were told "management are taking care of it" and to basically never mention it again.

[@hazel9903]

This backs up what I already knew about that Hosp with regards to low staff morale amongst nurses and the covering up of mistakes. Last time I had an issue there regarding patient safety, I didn't even feel confident going through PALS and went straight to the CQC.

[@robbirobin9657]

I complained once to PALS regarding Health Harmonie (A "branch" of the NHS?). I am not sure that I can mention that name here? I suppose the fact I complained is a fact, so I can have no comeback from saying it. Lets just say that the issues I had were, in my opinion, the same when a friend of mine had treatment a couple of year later. There had been no improvement. The appointment/procedure I had was gynaecological. It was horrendous, and I was convinced at the time that one day there will be an inquiry about them. I am here ready and waiting to give my evidence/experience.

[@owlsahootn]

Bullies are allowed to go on and on….if you report it then you are just a complainer. It is a toxic and sick environment!😊

[@owlsahootn]

The smiley face is a typo…this is what was meant …😡

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

@@owlsahootnyes they are rewarded. It is very scary to see some individuals, with a clinical role at a relatively early stage in their clinical career knowing they have an eye for the management ladder. There’s others no doubt with different professional backgrounds- but these are the ones I’ve had close encounters with.

[@ciaranoneill6397]

Upper Management should have been jailed also as they are complicit in these crimes and averting the course of Justice.

[@GG-xo1zr]

How can a late submission of a sample be investigated but not a higher than usual death rate? How can clinical notes go missing and unnoticed? I hope all hospitals and care settings have learnt from this and psychiatricly evaluate ALL staff.

[@Ava22159]

Ha ha they'll have few staff.

[@platedlizard]

Serial killers take advantage of systematic failures, we see this time and time again. In the US the LISK was able to murder at least 11 people because the local police department was more concerned with partying and playing politics than protecting the lives of society's vulnerable. I can think of a dozen other examples right off the top of my head where the system enabled a serial killer to keep murdering. Practically every serial killer is enabled in some way by a refusal by the people in authority to confront actual problems with their organizations. Medical serial killers like Lucy Letby are a microcosm of a greater problem.

[@CritterHeadquarters]

Tbh, this sounds petty, I'm all for these appalling managers being dragged into courts and held accountable, however, surely I don't need to point out why it isn't wise to wear jewellery in theatre? I'm not really seeing the correlation here at all, because whilst this lady was reprimanded (arguably on things which are to be expected) LL was NOT being reprimanded at all, which is it?

[@susannatuttapanna2010]

exactly, she just sounds like an embittered employee. Everyone knows nhs staff work under ludicrous pressure and that they're held to high standards. That isn't bullying, it's the nature of the job. It could certainly be much better but until this country confronts the fact that the NHS model is decades out of date and needs part-private funding, like healthcare has in most decent european countries, it won't change.

[@libbywalkden1919]

I’m not too sure this is what she was trying to get across…she was trying to correlate these things together, how staff are being berated for yes important policies but rather silly things yet there’s a nurse killing babies and nothing being done about it, rather it being ignored and swept under the carpet…

[@ecowifey4603]

The point is that LL couldn't just be reprimanded, she needed to be investigated. But the doctors were reprimanded for hurting her feelings!

[@louisejeffries7155]

It truely believe that culture change came from the changes in the 80- 90’s when management was taken from a medical/surgical superintendent and matron and instead given to HR and a multi levelled management teams

[@margaretireton5850]

This change allegedly led to a Business Management Model with its focus entirely on money, power, and self image and which frequently operated by bullying. This type of Administrative Business Model naturally resulted in a permanent divide between the Management team and the Physician/Nursing or Medical team because two opposing goals and their supporting objectives have been created by changing from a Medically centered model to a Business centered model in what used to be a patient centered care provider facility known as a hospital. This somewhat recent change of Hospitals to this Business Management Model proves to be especially financially beneficial to the Administrators, CEO's, and upper echelon of this Administrative Business Model of a hospital. As a result of hospitals adapting to this Administrative Business Model, the hospital's accountability for patient care management, patient safety, and the establishment of a therapeutic patient care environment are often at a minimum. This type of Management structure allows for a toxic work environment to develop along with attitudes of mistrust and bullying which can lead to patient harm or injury resulting in negligence and malpractice charges being filed against physicians, nurses, and the hospital itself. As long as therapeutic patient centered care remains no longer the primary goal of the hospital, the hospital will gradually decline, patient services will fail due to the development of a toxic environment, mistakes involving patient care will become more numerous and obvious, staff shortages will become a common occurrence, and the hospital will eventually go into debt or close down sections of its facility. The 5 star rated hospitals have reached this same conclusion and have gone back to providing therapeutic patient centered care as their primary objective and as a result of this their profits have skyrocketed, their staff retention has made great gains, their hospital beds remain full, their patient care evaluations are outstanding, and legal claims for negligence or malpractice have totally dwindled. As a retired RN, I have observed all of these facts with my own eyes as well as by sharing information with colleagues. No hospital system is perfect primarily because they are staffed by people, none of whom are perfect. There are many administrative decisions and safeguards, however, that can earn one hospital a 5 star rating while another hospital is lucky to earn even 1 star. With all of the serious and significant mismanagement problems at the facility where the seven babies were killed, I wonder how the parents of those babies would rate that hospital, its management, and its therapeutic patient centered care?

[@colinluckens9591]

Absolutely - the demise of the hospital matron 😔😔😔😔

[@stephnuttall]

This absolutely shocking. Ian Harvie and his arrogant band of co-conspirators should face criminal charges for their gross negligence. I hope they suffer daily.

[@serendpity3478]

I do not understand how all these other doctors who were trying to save babies lives have had their names and workplaces broadcast to the world. Yet the one doctor who it seems to me ignored every sign of things being wrong and was wilfully deaf to the concerns of his colleagues is allowed anonymity.

[@maggieswithenbank6709]

Yes! What makes Dr A so special? Why is he protected?

[@paulroberts7544]

@@maggieswithenbank6709 probably because he was coerced into testifying? He didn't want to do it. They had to promise him anonymity to get him to agree to it? Which then begs the question - why didn't he want to testify? Perhaps because he didn't believe she did anything wrong? Perhaps he knew that the witch hunt would turn on him if he didn't go along with the madness? The nurses that she worked with on the ward still say she's innocent.

[@jono1457-qd9ft]

I'm glad more and more people are realising that this is a dreadful miscarriage of justice and that none of the babies were murdered. I hope the public enquiry brings out the real truth of what happened in the Countess of Chester Hospital.

[@y2ksurvivor]

​@@jono1457-qd9ftyou're deluded.

[@jono1457-qd9ft]

@@y2ksurvivor Tell that to the Science on Trial group. They are appalled at the misinformation given during the trial. These people are medical experts.

[@vlong37]

I have worked as a scrub nurse for many years and can well relate to this after I contacted the CQC. Management is sadly much similar.

[@mark01332]

The vaping on site bit is crazy but this is modern day work. Grill people anout small things turn a blond eye to serious things

[@louisejeffries7155]

This is an argument between management and clinical staff Why if it was so toxic (and it was even at a ward level) didn’t people leave Was a single job so very important to all staff

[@marypartridge5154]

You need to get rid of all the management. No respect for qualified doctors. Appalling. But they listened to Lucy Letby. They were jealous of the doctors.

[@mazklassa9338]

So were the managers listening to staff who were beneath doctoral level a way of casting a veiled insult?

[@constanciabeswick9404]

Because she's white

[@bea7484]

Give me the proof anyone that LL is guilty of any crime? I have gone through it with a fine tooth comb there is none. But plenty of evidence to show her innocence. Great miscarriage of justice. I have never felt so strongly about a case, and it shocks me that someone can be convicted as a baby killer, and jailed for life without any indisputable proof. Shocking miscarriage of justice is what it is.

[@MsColl90]

Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

[@DepakoteMeister]

I have not seen one peice of evidence that hasn't been contested by independent experts.

[@ThirzaLynetteClarke-ku9dq]

Perhaps Lucy was affected by this toxic atmosphere too. Those managers must be held to account. Close the hospital immediately.

[@malhilfy]

The irony is that Chambers, Harvey, and Kelly tried their very best to not take the correct action in response to the consultants' concerns because they were more worried about the ''reputation'' of what was under their leadership. Now I wonder how they see their own ''reputations'' as the infamous NHS bosses who enabled a serial killer carry on her horrendous crimes in one of the worst scandals in NHS history.

[@corpsebride843]

I have a little boy here who spent his first 6 weeks of life in neonatal. This case put fear in me the whole time

[@MsColl90]

A shocking miscarriage of justice. All the doctors and management, police and prosecutors should be prosecuted for their complicity. She’s innocent.

[@gailbryan8520]

Bullying had to stop in the work place...... End of, i live and have had treatment at counters of Chester hospital. I come from a health care background and have seen and heard staff complaining about the big wigs...... How can anyone work in that environment if the big wigs are corrupt 🤔🤔🤔

[@FreeLucyLetby]

Lucy Letby Is Innocent

[@colinluckens9591]

Continue travelling round your other planet - I hope you enjoy the view!...

[@FreeLucyLetby]

keep believing everything you see on the TV, boosters are coming soon for a new variant. bet you will be first in line. @@colinluckens9591

[@bea7484]

Agree with you - no evidence provided to prove her guilt. Its a travesty!

[@EllaRamy]

Completely agree with what she is saying and it is terrible that doctors and nurses are being bullied when they put themselves on the line to save others. However, the smoking is a very poorly used example and I am not expecting that medical staff to be vapping at the hospital

[@susantravell6991]

I left the nhs this year I couldnt stand the toxic culture. What this whistle blower has reorted is the same in each hospital. This is the culture in the nhs across the board and wont change many managers will make sure of this . They earn huge wages and will do what they can to keep their jobs. When it goes wrong there is never any accountability.

[@jamesc7019]

I criticise Doctors for not going to Police they put their careers before the babies lives. If I was working with somebody who I believed was committing such heinous crimes I would not have carried on working with them. They were also deeply unprofessional for not keeping it confidential and gossiping about it so it became public knowledge.

[@hellsbells2028]

If they had gone to the police the police would have gone directly to those very managers who would have told them they had investigated and found nothing wrong! Remember the consultants didn't think there were acts of criminality in the beginning and when management did investigate they weren't looking for acts of criminality either.

[@y2ksurvivor]

​@@hellsbells2028exactly. people act as if it was straight forward. the culture ensures handling these things isn't straight forward at all.

[@thedepthsofrepair]

Sure....

[@TarotPolitics]

Horrifying. The story about how she was taken out of an operating room in the middle of an operation to be berated because she had been eating a pack of potato chips??!! WTF

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

I hope this doctor gets some help with overcoming all of this. A number of people commenting here present as seriously out of touch with their comments. This is vital to listen to- the control. Doctors working in anaesthetics are highly trained specialists working in a high pressure area. The people making comments such as Bitter Woman are part of what keeps all toxic systems in flow- think of any type of serious social injustice.

[@marypartridge5154]

I saw Lucy Letby for a few minutes and even I could tell that she has no feelings.

[@Ava22159]

Where was that? I think she was a student at Warrington Hospital.

[@MissOrchid12]

Where? Could you tell us more please? Of course we're going to want to know more after reading...yr comment...

[@missperfectfeet]

Some of her text messages were truly bizarre. She made strange frivolous comments after witnessing horrible incidents. I think she chose the wrong profession.

[@Ava22159]

@@missperfectfeet But for her the right one!I'm pretty sure she was a student at Warrington .

[@lonelylantern9135]

Petty controlling behaviour about crocs when morale and through that lives were at stake is typical of psychopaths in positions of power.

[@mrsf6740]

Every place that "cares" for people is the same... Hospitals, care homes, nursing homes, schools, nursery's... They're all the same. Most on the front line do care, the big wigs are all for show

[@ashbash635]

I've seen a lot of staff at many different companies who actually have hands on the experience. Who are told shut up toe the line. most managers at companies do this even though the blow back is potentially masssive as we see here.

[@j.r.8223]

The management should have to answer for what they allowed to happen in that hospital.

[@JulianWard-Davies-cd8kh]

Scapegoat.

[@DJWESG1]

People like that work in the DWP also. They're called decision makers.

[@ruthbashford3176]

What a difference a year makes

[@Rebecca236]

Wonder what would happen if a teacher was caught eating crisps in the corridor of the school as they made their way between lessons? 🤔

[@winchesterwings8795]

It’s down to the calibre of NHS managers & execs. Bullying is a form of lack of confidence

[@christinasmyth5674]

Why weren’t cameras in the nursery?

[@Suelynngrr]

Seems to me that management in hospitals generally focus on the wrong things. People need to be held accountable. For starters, these people should all learn about Florence Nightingale, take an oath to do no harm and get a psych. evaluation before being put in positions of power at places like this!

[@stephenwarren5517]

This culture of managers not wanting anyone to speak up has travelled the world. I worked at University of Sydney in the Library from 1983 to 2018. So I saw it develop. From around 2004 Managers started to be employed to push the staff. Conditions deteriated and we even had a few dreaded restructures where some staff lost their jobs. In 2015 we had another restructure where everyones job was readvertised and you had to apply for your own job. I was lucky my grade Level 4 did not as we did most of the work and had the knoweledge of how to do things. The managers had no idea how to do the day to day operations. We even employed a Librarian at that time from yes England. So I think this attitude from Managers about repressing any one who complains helped to get Lucy Letby under the radar. Managers attitude Hush it all up we dont want the reputation of the Hospital tarnished. Maybe Managers from the Countess of Chester Hostpital in 2015 should be the ones who face charges as well as Lucy Letby.

[@summerofplums]

I think the hospital had every right to discipline the nurse caught vaping on the premises. Second hand vape fumes contain more chemicals than cigarette smoke, and have now been shown to cause Popcorn Lung. They might have even contributed to this lady's friend's breast cancer, and would certainly be a danger to hospital patients, including of course the babies on the neonatal unit. I think this is a better explanation of the unexpected rise in deaths on the neonatal ward than scapegoating Lucy Letby because she was a single woman who volunteered to work on the ward when other nurses didn't. Vape smoke and raw sewage would also be far better explanations than unproven theories of insulin, air and milk injection. This trial was a disgrace to British justice and should be re-considered based solely on tangible forensic evidence, not irrelevant pieces of paper, phone calls and psychological theories.

[@robinhood4640]

The problem is, the sewage gets the benefit of the doubt, but a dedicated nurse doesn't. Even those who think she is guilty, should have a problem with this.

[@Jane-x4n]

​@robinhood4640 yes so rite

[@margaretryan8694]

Not just hospitals care homes same, learning difficulties , dementia

[@sarahwales6276]

I can't believe there are hardcore supporters that still claim letby is innocent.

[@STORMDAME]

I said the same on another video and people came at me big time simping for this apauling woman.

[@sarahwales6276]

@@STORMDAME It's disturbing and really odd, are they even following the same case?

[@Raising-awareness]

Your always get these conspiracy theorists that want to spread the narrative. They cherry pick what they want to believe without even following the trial.

[@sarahwales6276]

@@Raising-awareness I wouldn't generalise them as conspiracy theorists, it's a term thrown around these days to describe anyone who questions the mainstream narrative. I think there are people who just like the attention they get for having a controversial opinion.

[@Raising-awareness]

@@sarahwales6276 a lot of them are conspiracy theorists I’ve debunked many of them on KZbin. I actually use to do a show with ten others and invite them on to challenge what there saying and spreading. I found most was setting up numerous PayPal accounts and go fund me saying there child abuse campaigners. When they was just promoting hoax’s stories that’s been though the courts and found to be nonsense like the hamstead case and Holly Greg case and many others. They take snippets of stories from media and just spread false information the rest of the conspiracy theorist circle of friends jump on and take it as gospel. Doubt in Lucy case money being made but won’t be long.

[@emmasweeney9123]

Its incomprehensible the reaction of hospital management to genuine concerns from senior consultants concerning unexplained deaths of innocent vunerable babies. This culture also when the flood gates open and management jump ship or retire with no accountability needs to be seriously investigated. These families and their babies deserve better. My thoughts and prayers are witn the families and babies who suffered may they find some peace and comfort in the fact she will be in prison for the rest of her day's.

[@brenda1378]

Everybody should write to the Crime commissioner asking when these Managers will be charged.

[@dee-deelove9310]

I totally get what this lady is saying but I agree strongly about not having jewellery on while your in surgery…..it’s not like you ever notice when you lose an earring until hours later 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@JT-el2kg]

Jewelry harbors bacteria

[@anthonybernstein9698]

There seems to be a common thread running through all the comments that I have read. All the professionals ars being run by managers. The donkeys in charge of the lions. Manager with very little or no medical training. Stop watching procedures, counting bandages, all petty practices that have nothing to do with medicine. Everything governed by statistics, this works well in automated industry with high tech machinery. We need more medical staff and less managers managing managers. What are the qualifications of a manager, a degree in anything to obtain job.

[@margaretcoyle4224]

Please can someone tell me the proof an evidence that convicted this nurse

[@bea7484]

I've asked the same question, and received no response. This is because there is none, NO EVIDENCE PROVIDED THAT PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT LL IS GUILTY. Yet, this podcast and others keep on about it, constantly trying to prove she is, and this could be the worst miscarriage of justice ever! Its not like the jury haven't got it wrong before , Lucia de Berk for instance - Andrew Malkinson to name but a few.

[@Jane-x4n]

​@bea7484 YES I AGREE 😢

[@beckyhopkins4306]

@@bea7484 Agree 100%. People need to look at the evidence in its entirety and ask themselves whether it would be enough for them to accept a verdict against someone they cared about. Would they accept it if it was their own daughter, or their own best friend, who was found guilty of multiple counts of murder even though in several cases there were other people in the room and no-one EVER saw her do anything untoward? Would they accept there were even any murders to begin with if the supposed victims were sick, premature babies on an understaffed NHS ward that had raw sewage gurgling up the pipes into the sinks? Would they accept a judge telling the jury: "don't be detectives", and that they don't need to know exactly how their daughter or best friend would have had to carry out the acts in order to decide if she is guilty or innocent of them? The case against Lucy relies on demonizing her and stripping her humanity away so that no-one tries to put themselves in her shoes. As soon as you do, the whole thing crumbles. The truth is that a young woman was abused by Dr Jayaram and Dr Brearey through a vicious narcissistic smear campaign and the system not only failed to protect her but escalated the abuse into severe, systematic psychological torture.

[@TheMazinoz]

Her own diary.

[@freedomtrail8255]

Healthcare private and NHS needs an overhaul. I for one just want to get out. CQC are blinded by paperwork and not what actually goes on. Anyone can tick a box

[@paulroberts7544]

I understand that autopsy reports for 6 of the 7 babies found 'natural causes'. Years after the deaths, an expert witness (who volunteered his services to the police) OPINED that the autopsies were wrong and that the babies were in fact murdered. So the entire premise of the investigation and prosecution is based upon the OPINION of a paid for expert witness. One that approached the police offering to work for them - YEARS after the autopsy showed natural causes. If the babies were murdered, the entire wards should have been considered a crime scene. Yet my understanding is that the doctors that were on the ward when the babies were murdered were working with the 'expert witness' that pointed the finger at the nurse. Are any of these points incorrect? Because if my understanding is correct (and my source is pretty reliable - science on trial) - how do we know that Lucy wasn't framed? Not necessarilly because the doctors murdered the babies, but quite possibly the deaths were natural causes (as the autopsy found) but doctors didn't want to be held responsible for a spike in deaths on t;heir watch. I'm not saying the above happened, but I'd have thought this would equate to very reasonable doubt as to Lucy's guilt? It worries me that there's a possibility that an innocent young nurse is spending her life in prison when there's no proof she did anything wrong. The conjecure and circumstantial evidence is very shaky. Lots of reasable doubt - much of which wasn't presented to the jury. It's worrying that ANY nurse could find herself in Lucy's position. Why weren't the doctors considered suspects?

[@Maddy-qd8eg]

THIS ^^^

[@joceelee]

Didn’t she write ‘I did this’?

[@Maddy-qd8eg]

Thank you for saying what many others are seeing . It's all part of the rundown of the NHS helped in no small way by Matt Hancock, who can interestingly be seen alongside fellow alumni Dr Ravi Jayaram , receiving a 'Leading Light' award (Cheshire Live). Problem, reaction, solution.

[@y2ksurvivor]

You do realize it's possible for her to have done this AND for the NHS to be covering their butts so none of them are fired for allowing her free reign to continue? "Cover up" does not = she's a scapegoat. Let's stop pretending we have access to everything the jury saw. That's part of what allows people like you to fill in the blanks.

[@74griffo]

I hope this information becomes more widely known. I genuinely believe there weren’t even any murders. The misrepresentation of death statistics and medical information is staggeringly shocking. Once they present the case in that light then it’s easy for every little thing someone does or doesn’t do as a sign of guilt.

[@Raising-awareness]

I can’t believe some are blaming the doctors that blew whistle. Stating they should have gone police they was threatened with there jobs. they could never get a job in the NHS if they got sacked for bullying imagine being in that position a job you studied for all your life to get were you are. They also probably had a mortgage family to feed so there also looking to loose everything a Job and there house. All they wanted was for these people at top to investigate and they failed. These chief executives should be held accountable and prosecuted and jailed because they cost more life’s by ignoring concerns raised.

[@paulroberts7544]

If the babies were indeed murdered (autopsy reports show natural causes) the ward was a crime scene. The doctors should have been considered suspects. But it looks like the doctors helped guide the investigation. What if Lucy didn't kill the babies? What if they weren't murdered? What if the autopsy reports werre correct? This would mean that the hospital management did the right thing. They prevented doctors from bullying an innocent nurse. If the deaths were due to natural causes (as the autopsy found) the doctors were losing a lot of babies under their care. That might have panicked them - that might have caused them to look for a scape goat.

[@y2ksurvivor]

​@@paulroberts7544it's cute you have such faith in the NHS.

[@lemdixon01]

​@@paulroberts7544yes I agree and she seems to have been scapegoated for the systemic problems.

[@Raising-awareness]

@@paulroberts7544 the autopsy reports was not natural causes air and insulin was injected into the babies. The reports was inspected by four professionals who came to the same conclusions. You have a lot of what ifs.? There’s no what if about the case she was found guilty of murdering babies there was no scape goat. She was present at all the deaths to much evidence points to her being guilty to even mention.

[@FreeLucyLetby]

Shes admitting the bullying that goes on but cant see that lucy letby was bullied to the point they put all blame on her, she is the scapegoat

[@colinluckens9591]

What are you talking about??? Lucy Letby wasn't in any way bullied - doctors and consultants all raised valid concerns about her to management, and were proved completely justified in the end - with respect get your head out of the clouds

[@FreeLucyLetby]

nonsense read the transcripts @@colinluckens9591

[@sosospacesheep2344]

This lady sounds very bitter and disappointed in the management and the whole system. Hope it will be a lesson to learn - as we all know that bullying and cover up exists in NHS sector. I work both in care(private) and NHS sector for 15 years - I had many safeguarding, investigations and even court cases in care - system works well there. And ZERO in NHS. Experienced quite a lot of bullying and mobbing from the NHS staff. They still have this toxic culture in some places…

[@theyatter]

whoever is acting the part of the prosecution makes those sections unbearable. Sneering, snide schoolyard bully voice. Guys having way too much fun

[@marypartridge5154]

Too much training at university and not enough hospital time. There needs to be lengthy psychological testing for medical staff.

[@thedepthsofrepair]

@@ekl2947I think she had serious issues with parents stemming from her own. I think tests would reveal that.

[@Revelation21-4-]

It makes me scared to go to hospitals now after the LL case

[@susansaxon4780]

Please don’t think that she was one bad apple, most nurses like myself who has been a nurse now over 42yrs are in the role because we care, we want the best for our patients, l,would go above and beyond for my patients.

[@bernadettemchugh6410]

Fiona is so, so, so right.

[@merrisl6685]

As a retired nurse, I'm aware the NMC who sets out the professional standards for nurses, are emphatic that each nurse has a duty to ensure that no action, or omission (of action) can lead to the harming of patients. I believe the increase in near misses and deaths of babies by Lucy, must have crossed the mind of at least one nurse during her killing spree. They may have blocked the thought because quite frankly it sounds quite ludicrous. Or, they may have feared getting mixed up in a misconduct trial, knowing that they are often lengthy and messy. I believe if suspicions were raised and reported to the NMC at any time, Lucy would have been removed from her post as late as the following day! When it comes to patients, unlike some hospital managers, the NMC are not frightened of upsetting people, especially nurses.

[@renegade-master29]

Lucy letby is innocent we'll have to get that kid who's just broke out of Wandsworth prison to go and break her out

[@LawrenceHyett]

I see the press use the usual biased language all the time which gets in the way of how we can engage in a neutral way. quote "When Lucy Letby was operating". Letby wasn't a doctor or someone who did operations she was a nurse with specific competencies that she was duty bound to follow.

[@margaretryan8694]

Hospital knew , this world is evil

[@dukegroovy5162]

Same with Dept of Education

[@juliette23]

Why stay there for almost 20 years then? I’ve been working in toxic environments and believe me I left before the year had passed, and I’m not a doctor and my likelihood of not finding a job after is much greater than a doctor’s. Seriously when you’re a doctor you can find another job in any country in a bat of a lid. Why would you hold on to one job like it’s the only option you have?? That’s aburd

[@Wargasm54]

Sounds like an embittered employee to me. No, you shouldn’t wear jewelry, no you shouldn’t eat on the floor, yes, uniformity is in order in a structure where it’s seriously a matter of life and death. If everyone has to wear the same uniform, so be it. Any job that deals in life or death situations (police, military, etc) should maintain uniformity. I don’t see what this lady is complaining about. Nursing is a serious job. It’s definitely not for everyone. My daughter went to nursing school. When she started working in the hospital, she absolutely hated it. I asked her what she wanted to do. She said she wanted to travel. I told her “at this point you have 2 options, military or flight attendant “. So she became a flight attendant and loves it. Nursing is a high stress job where you are constantly surrounded by sick and dying people. If it’s not for you, don’t paint yourself in a corner of misery.

[@colinluckens9591]

Seriously come on, matching uniform down to the crocs has to come pretty low on the list of priorities, when there are FAR more important things at stake....

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

Grim. The management. Very, very grim.

[@fionamcdougall6342]

What is it between Dr's and Managers ? Bullying means that there is no definition between right and wrong ? Your lifestyle, all of you, came before dying babies are the facts of the matter.

[@stephenbeardwood1951]

Personally I think Lucy letby is innocent if so someone has to take responsibility

[@syung8754]

HARVEY+Chambers. Fitting the docks. The nhs, values they esteem to in the hands of managers who can't relate or empathise with. Wild wild rose - really?

[@rainbows9060]

Managerd are pychpaths by the sounds of it! Petty nonse these pulls were over. Although i do agree about not wearing jewellery in a theatre setting..patience are not allowed to.nor should staff. It's not unknkwn for jellery to become dislodged and fall into a patience open wound. Its well documented about swabs and equipment being found days or weeks later in a patients body. So it makes sence to me why it should not be worn. As for the crocs. Thats nit picking. Pulling a.staff member out of theatre for a bollocking sounds like a dangerous practice.wjat if that staff member had become upset and distracted by it were they are supposed to be focused and calm. I understand why people jate hospitals more than ever after this circus.

[@lemdixon01]

Scapegoat

[@bea7484]

Yes, LL has been stitched up for sure by a bunch of incompetent consultants. They should be in the dock. Free Lucy Letby - she is innocent.

[@constanciabeswick9404]

Why they kip her to 7 baby killed

[@eppleheid]

Misleading title

[@lemdixon01]

Quick we need a scapegoat

[@adamknight9114]

Letby manipulated her nurse colleagues/friends to defend her. And now they can't admit they were wrong

[@pambromley7481]

the drive towards privatisation. didastrous.

[@soneelita]

It would be a different story if she was a black Nurse . Maybe she would have ended up in prison in 1 week.

[@stellaboulton9531]

As per OJ Simpson....?

[@MissyC333]

NHS England managers alter letters and information to try and harm you, I put in a grievance like Lucy I don't believe she's done this

[@lostintheseventies7969]

those poor little babes,so innocent-i hope she goes to hell