Intimations of Creativity | Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman | EP 177

This episode was recorded on April 13th 2021
On this episode of the Jordan Peterson Podcast, Jordan is joined by Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive scientist exploring the limits of human potential. He hosts the very popular podcast 'The Psychology Podcast'. He is an author, editor, and co-editor of nine books including his newest 'Transcend: The New Science of Self Actualization'.
Dr. Kaufman and Jordan discussed cognitive science, behavioral study, and Humanism. They also touched on many points including IQ. tests, personality traits, aggression in hierarchy, dating intelligence, self-actualization, long-form media, and much more.
Find more Scott Kaufman on his website scottbarrykaufman.com/, in his books, and on his podcast show The Psychology Podcast
The Jordan B Peterson Podcast can be found at www.jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/
[0:00] Intro
[0:18] Jordan introduces this episodes guest, Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, an expert in cognitive science research
[3:00] Starting things off by looking at the combination of cognitive science and the humanist tradition coming together in Dr. Kaufman's new book 'Transcend'
[6:30] Kaufman’s experience studying IQ and intelligence in great depth
[13:00] After mastering the psychometric approach to intelligence, Dr. Kaufman continued new studies with Dr. Robert Sternberg looking at multiple types of intelligence
[20:30] Jordan outlines the difficulty in separating different types of intelligence completely the standard IQ measurement
[24:00] Dr. Kaufman acknowledges the general accuracy of the IQ test, but also brings up some of the limitations that have been found with the IQ and similar tests
[30:30] The linkage between an individual's openness to experience and transcend mystical experiences such as taking mushrooms. Jordan draws a correlation between openness and the ability to intuit multiple personalities
[36:00] Postulating on human’s astonishing ability for mimicry. Exploring the instincts that might drive mimicry as an adaptation mechanism
[40:00] Investigation of openness’s effect on political viewpoint. Personality is a highly accurate determining factor
[46:00] Circling back to the topic of Humanism
[50:00] Dr. Kaufman is updating and clarifying Maslow with his new book
[1:00:00] Mapping different self-actualization character traits onto The Big Five,. The Big Five personality traits are extraversion, agreeableness, openness, conscientiousness, and neuroticism
[1:06:30] Does increased aggression lead to stable human societal hierarchies? Jordan asserts this is absolutely not the case
[1:10:30] Dr. Kaufman's book, 'Dating Intelligence Unleashed'. Jordan and Scott discuss mating patterns in men and women
[1:21:30] Sex differences towards abuse of power by individuals high in the social hierarchy. Getting into the topics of mentorship and transcendence
[1:29:00] The transition from naivety, to cynicism, to courage. How does a compassionate person committed to truth deal with the power games that play out in conversation?
[1:39:30] Practicing attention to what is and not thinking/interpreting but observing truth unfold as an essential learned skill
[1:45:00] Scott talks about his podcast and long-form type media, changes to learning and universities coming in the future
[1:59:30] Wrapping up the show
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[@fisch5220]

Is it just me or does he CONISTANTLY get interesting people on here? I don’t know these people, but they’re all just so cool.

[@davyroger3773]

Hell Yeah Edit: Just to add, it would also be advantageous to exclusively get the guests who are intellectually stimulating. Unlike cough cough Nicole Arbour

[@philanthropicnightmare1206]

Not just you. I also think it shows how many interesting people are out there. They don’t need to be famous.

[@angelonigiannis8503]

Totally agree. I feel like we're so lucky that Jordan is back. That he fights his issues to be able to do these things for our betterment. We're blessed.

[@michaelz6555]

I think JBP may be single-handedly redefining the standard of intellectual thought in the western world, or at least reminding us of where it should be. Not all superheroes wear capes. Some get burned at the stake. Most just go about their day making the world a better place

[@GnoneckOG]

Amazing publicist he has.

[@Lakoda26]

The coolest part of this podcast isn't the incredible discussion but after years of listening to Dr. Peterson, I can follow it at a basic level.

[@1Plebeian]

Nice.

[@isaacislaughter]

Right? I totally agree. Dr P likened the conversation to a "high-level graduate seminar" and I was able to follow along and absorb the discussion without much difficulty, and I am just a "plumber". 😁 Of course I have listened to all of Dr Peterson's lectures over the last four years. So maybe not your average plumber.

[@nathanaelmorales760]

@@isaacislaughter carpenter over here 💪🏼 glad to see others in the field listening to great minds like him 😅

[@joegreenan]

@@isaacislaughter but are you one of those power mad authoritarian plumbers that rove around and enforce power based hierarchy ( he uses plumbers as the example for why power is not the deciding factor but rather competence and always mentions you save more lives than modern medicine 😂)

[@whosasking9655]

@@joegreenan Every avid Jordanian will get this 👍

[@sg8738]

I've learned more about psychometrics here than in 4 years at Glasgow University studying psychology. The teaching staff were stale and useless. I wish I had Jorden Peterson as my professor.

[@qazaqtatar]

You have him now

[@raulespino2776]

I second this. So true. I was in was is considered one of the best universities in Spain in psychology, but came to the same conclusion after listening to this podcast and others like Dr. Andrew Huberman's podcast.

[@rampartranger7749]

We are here, taking his lectures! ….For free!

[@urdadsfinsta]

same

[@gnu7839]

Part of what they discovered was: It doesn't matter where you are educated. KZbin gives good educator's a space to compete for good content. One of the best talkes of Peterson I have seen so far!

[@gino2868]

He's looking less frail in each podcast. I think he's well on his way to a full recovery.

[@serioush]

He looks like he's having a good time doing these, that likely helps.

[@paulnova3287]

This was recorded a while ago, back in April. I believe his Michael Malice podcast is the most recent. I like your profile picture, always nice to see a fellow Souls fan.

[@austinkuipers6087]

At this rate we'll see a JP-Jake Paul fight by the end of 2021.

[@gino2868]

@@paulnova3287 praise the sun!

[@PeakyBlinders1987]

Yes, JP is a gift to this broken world.

[@cazkelly]

No going to lie, this is crushing Rogans podcast and I'm a big fan of Joe.

[@smash8865]

Joe has learned a better interview style but jordan has a deeper interest and focus. His guests and subjects are probably more specific, Rogan kinda hangs out and speaks more ad lib.

[@yannickbr4383]

The approach is much more educational in it's core, makes it very good to watch/listen to.

[@mohamedmohamedmahmoud7518]

I was thinking the same thing . Like Jordan’s podcast is very educational and he asks more critical questions .

[@puddspudds5102]

Rogan was a big support to jordan when he was being attacked. Joe is joe ..love him or hate him his pod has always been there for the unfairly attacked underdog . Of course joe and dr Jordans pods are different .Jordan is an academic

[@mohamedmohamedmahmoud7518]

Yeah absolutely man . I really like Joe don’t get me wrong . I’ve watched almost every episode of his podcast . He’s very quick and pays a lot of attention to his guest’s line of thinking. Also I would say that he corrects and fact-check his guests a lot which is good !!! I just think Jordan has more of an academic background which I guess helps him get a lot more info from his guests .

[@7BigJoe7]

What an excellent model of how two deeply qualified researchers can communicate. I want an ongoing series of conversations between these two.

[@4acrehobbytfarm]

Yes!! How about the greats of our day-like these two-get together like the Inklings. CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien’s great thinkers

[@willgreen6787]

What does deeply qualified mean to you?

[@dockovacs4089]

It is so nice to watch Dr. Peterson's personality cone back. He continues to be more animated, engaged, and his facial expressions of increasing complexity. It buoys me!

[@callmeishmael7452]

And it’s those qualities that he employs so expertly to get his point across, sometimes allowing his message to be extremely complex as he is an expert in the prosody of the voice.

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

Epicurus rules of happiness = 1. A few good friends. 2. Not to have a boss breathing down your neck. 3. To have plenty of time to contemplate the meaning of life !!

[@LilaSilk]

A plesant person Scott is and I was under the impression that he is constantly questioning his thoughts, or understanding. He has this childlike innocence and enthusiasm and the expression of pure joy in his laughters. Love to have a professor like him. Appart from that the information gained from this podcast is so valued thank you to both of you, especially Dr Peterson. Ever since I heard you for the first time, I knew I appreciate your ability to convert feelings into meaning and I look up to you in awe of your expertise and courage. From my personal experience I agree that awe is the reason for imitation.

[@unreal9823]

Being with an expert as exceptional as Jordan, it's the perfect environment to openly explore and question one's thoughts. A strength not a weakness :)

[@markrussell3428]

Well captured!. My impression as well but you articulate it better than i would have.

[@BenBigelow3]

I appreciate Barry’s candor and gentleness. He’s a smart man. I had an “aha” moment for myself. Jordan is just being himself. And it’s a gift to the world. Keep them coming and we’ll keep enjoying.

[@evedotcom]

New tinder bio: “Highly competent and generous”

[@Rico-ly2mz]

lol you probably should remove tinder in the first place

[@quidnick]

Add a winking emoji to the end of that and you're golden.

[@evedotcom]

​@@Rico-ly2mz I'm kidding, but yes, true. No way in hell I'd be on there. To further confirm what Jordan said, it's far too laborious to sift through the high percentage of chaff :P

[@Copt774]

And tender defender

[@jacob2236]

@@Rico-ly2mz THIS

[@crxh2dvtec]

At this rate, Jordan Peterson is going to have Joe Rogan on his podcast.

[@alongr5]

He already had

[@juliosnap]

He already did that

[@cuteasxtreme]

I believe he actually had Joe on this channel years ago

[@Stringz]

Joe Rogan is very old and outdated. Jordan had his time also. Maybe a decade ago this would make more sense. Joe and Jordan do not matter very much anymore. I moved on quite a while ago. Not that I dislike Jordan, but he’s not at all the same, and he won’t be. Even if he was I studied a lot from him for years from him and then I went beyond… and Joe I surpassed after a few months as a kid cus he’s not that bright at all. I thought he was at one point, but I was just a little kid… y’all are just late to the game comparatively. I was there when it all began. Shit gets old seeing such extreme worship to people that are ordinary in my view based on all the diverse and accomplished and variances of people I’ve met in my life and my high awareness of them … which all have their unique issues as well…. Not a single person is immune to faults and many end up showing their levels of stupidity are actually pretty high also. Anyway, whatever. Onward. I’m sure this comes off angry. I am angry atm, but there’s truth in that as well.

[@Cashiiff]

@@Stringz ok? You’re cool bro

[@MJ-ix7wm]

Hello Doctor Peterson!!!!! My life is better because of the things you explain sooo well. Thank you again sir.

[@Chris-dt5td]

Happy to hear!

[@guitardadsinc]

What are the chances we can hope to get Dr.Thomas Sowell on here while we are still fortunate enough to have him here with us in the world of the living? That would be a terrible waste if not…

[@guitardadsinc]

@@steven5054 Thomas Sowell is a puppet for whom exactly?

[@tomquinn607]

@@guitardadsinc Thomas Sowell is one of the most cultured and honest intellectuals of our time. He's a brilliant man and a champion for God given Freedoms for us all.

[@guitardadsinc]

@@tomquinn607 yes I agree , he is a valuable voice now and tomorrow, and I can’t imagine a more interesting intellectual to discuss some the psychosocial ideas JBP is exploring in these discussions.

[@lukecockburn1140]

That would be the greatest

[@guitardadsinc]

@@steven5054 pretty sure you’re alone in that opinion mate. I mean, if you have the intellectual prowess to internally refute Sowell and find your arguments compelling then you surely are a genius, and most likely you’re not and you have no idea how brilliant Dr.Sowell is, because titan intellectuals are intimidated by his wit.

[@MissJuggler]

Dr Kaufman is so funny and humble, the whole conversation on creativity was super interesting. I especially liked "why would you be immersed in something if it wasn't relevant", it gave me a positive boost to keep on practicing my creativity.

[@zeynand4039]

Me too. I needed that boost. I'm going to buy his book after this. I did the big 5 test and it said I was exception ally high in creativity, did a few other tests about creativity and I score pretty much at the top. And I never knew or realized I was creative. I even got a background in finance which is the opposite of creative. But now Ive picked up my creative projects again and I feel so much more alive. It's like a dull and gray cloud has left my life.

[@alexgauthier7128]

I’m so thankful to Dr Peterson and his team for giving us all incredible conversations on such frequent intervals. What a time to be alive!

[@MariahRuthven]

Man, this intro just gets me every time. I smash that like button almost involuntarily before the interviews even start. LIKE

[@Jesusfacts1]

Me too!! Every person he interviews I know and love. It’s like he picks my favourite people every time!!

[@hcasperson]

Attn: GOOGLE, Twitter, Facebook, & KZbin: I agree with whatever the approved opinion on this subject is. Please don’t cancel me or get me fired. Whatever you tell me to think, I will believe, & I think & believe it more strongly than anyone else.

[@Tom_Swiss]

my fav part: 29:39

[@trillioncrowns]

Ur indoctrinated girl... perfect wife material. Want to hook up?

[@pedroferreira2062]

So you're saying that this is a reoccurring love at first sight?

[@ryanviningtube]

If I ever get to meet JBP, I would not tell him how he saved my life, I was already more or less on the right path when I found him. I would tell him how I used his teachings, especially the lectures on exposure therapy, to save my friends life, who was on the very edge of literal death.

[@MrTTnTT]

Nothing so extreme here, but I've also found tremendous value in Maps of Meaning after Peterson graciously gave it away for free in 2016. That book has been very influential on my thinking, as is reflected in how I have basically cited it (for different things) in everything I've written since, studying religion, media, music and philosophy over 5 years in academia. I suspect that like how Peterson says the field is still catching up with Gray & McNaughton's Neuropsychology of Anxiety, the field is just starting to catch up with Peterson's Maps of Meaning now, about 20 years later. I think you can see this reflected in Vervaeke's content, particularly the interview with the guy who tried to integrate Peterson's work with relevance realization. (This is not a dig at Vervaeke but an assumption that he is reflective of Cognitive Science; His work is great, too.)

[@CapriceWalker]

❤️😎

[@tommeakin1732]

This is exactly the kind of conversation that I want to listen to.

[@darrickbunn3087]

First time commenting on anything ever. Glad I was able to be one of the first as well!)! Didn’t listen yet but am always excited to hear from my man and learn something new just about every day. I’m a construction worker and his intelligent, though provoking conversations keep me sane through the repetitive tasks. Much appreciated doctor!

[@johnmcelroy5804]

@@sevilliane Peterson has a suggested reading list on his website, if that's what you are asking.

[@johnmcelroy5804]

@@sevilliane I think that's what gets a lot of people in trouble today. If you were to focus on a particular issue, you will start seeing things from that perspective. That's what CRT does, it focuses on race excluding all other factors, including the underlying human psychology. I think developing a foundational structure that is broad in it's scope and specific in individual development of the self creates a foundation through which these issues can be viewed objectively. But hey, that's just me. I take the majority of my views from a biblical perspective with influences from people who have examined the world from a philosophical and scientific style critical thinking perspective.

[@evedotcom]

“Love people for who they are independently of you, independently of their utility value for your own deprivations” WOAH 👏👏👏

[@ReynaSingh]

Creativity is so fascinating. Possible one of the things that makes us uniquely human. Great guest and conversation

[@rajatchandra3209]

Truly agreed. Poetic ability sure do come handy during ppt in btech 😂❤️ creativity is one of the keys to authenticity and self-expressionism. Also, great channel, saw your videos.

[@utkarsh4714]

just a mins back, saw you on prakhar's comment section.

[@kirkjohnson9353]

@@rajatchandra3209 She does have some good videos on her channel. I found them quite thought provoking.

[@AnitaBJay]

Agreed, but I think Peterson showed that it's just the metacognitive component of our creativity that is uniquely human. Our self-awareness, which gives us the capability for introspection, adds an extra layer of selectivity on our thoughts and ideas. Creativity is just the Darwinian-like selection of random ideas which are largely mutations of previous ideas (hence the analogies he was bringing up with natural/sexual selection). So having a metacognitive environment for our ideas, with the more constrained selection that it brings, bolsters our creativity.

[@draparnashukla677]

@@AnitaBJay Don't forget the role of sexual selection in evolution of traits

[@guitarminioriginals4840]

Politeness could have to do with borders: as I interact with you, I am at the border of your identity or world, so I am polite, like a tourist in a strange land or a diplomat

[@dsharkyo]

That's an interesting parallel

[@summan41man]

Once that politeness becomes distorted for weakness, is when we have to reevaluate our standing. You have made a great observation and it highlights a lot of social intricacies. Inclination to be polite is almost certainly an inherent psychological barrier.

[@vee7037]

Beautiful

[@joehoward4335]

Agreed. This also explains why people are so rude to each other on the internet, where those borders aren't visible.

[@eagleusa]

You’re improving lives Mr. Peterson. Thank you for all you do!!

[@kunipeg8706]

Mentorship is Immortality. It's the father that does everything for the best for his child. It's the continuation of one's name and spirit long after one is gone from this life. That's why mentorship is so, if not the most rewarding. It's the best attempt to make one's self eternal. It's the attempt to be God.

[@ItsWithakayLee]

“Open people have trouble catalyzing a single identity” yup

[@josephvanderhoven9967]

As someone high in neuroticism and openness to experience (93 percentile+) I second that.

[@charliecampbell6851]

@@josephvanderhoven9967 oof, me too. 90% extroversion and 90% neuroticism is not a friendly combination, but here we are. Kind of a weird lifestyle, right?

[@joshokon2800]

I have to agree with both of you! I'm also high in openness and neuroticism. It is not always fun for friends and family to deal with me. I will say that it definitely helps in writing fiction, you can literally create dozens of characters based off of the multifaceted traits of your personality and experience.

[@ivanbrownflower9828]

@@joshokon2800 In an interview Thomas Harris (the writer of the hannibal series) said of writing; "he elaborated on his process, as well as the difficulty, describing it as "passive [...], sometimes you really have to shove and grunt and sweat. Some days you go to your office and you're the only one who shows up, none of the characters show up, and you sit there by yourself, feeling like an idiot. And some days everybody shows up ready to work. You have to show up at your office every day. If an idea comes by, you want to be there to get it in." Interestingly the experience he describes here resonated strongly with how I've experienced my own ability to function on individual aspects of my job as a gardener (e.g. planning, designing, creating, adjusting and also just appreciating the effect of something) which I've interpreted as various sub-personalities either turning up or not at any given time. I suppose this parallel makes me question how real are the characters we create, and how fictional are the personalities we inhabit?

[@RyoMassaki]

Having one single personality is overrated and boring.

[@itmomotitimo]

I'm getting better sources for my PhD through KZbin than through Google Scholar :P

[@ib6294]

You ain't getting shit, go read books dont listen to someone's regurgitated shit

[@profeh3346]

How many are from JB PEterson?

[@Gaonaism]

Fact: both are owned by Alphabet.

[@sakukullberg2697]

@@ib6294 generally you investigate the source literature for a PhD rather than just copy paste the contents of a video... You wouldnt know that though because you have never done academic work

[@johnmcelroy5804]

@@ib6294 Considering how often Peterson's works have been cited in academic papers, I don't think you response is particularly applicable.

[@taylormeizlish2279]

Dr. Peterson, I finished my masters in Linguistics years ago and have barely looked at my research since then. But lately, after these recent dialogues with passionate researchers, I’m energized and inspired to try to validate and expand on my studies. I have to imagine I’m not alone in being touched by your infectious passion for pushing your knowledge and research beyond it’s current limits with such honesty and sincerity.

[@JiDonMySoul]

I just graduated with my BA in Psychology. Listening to this podcast really encouraged me to pursue my Masters. Reason one being that I miss researching the topic. Reason two being that conversations like this are the exactly the type that I want to have!

[@dnxtheone1252]

Jordan is so hyped about everything Dr. Scott says that he doesn’t even let him talk :)

[@tomquinn607]

The dialog was perfectly true. Understand. Dr. Peterson is his mentor. Do you want to speak over your sensei?

[@diegocheyre150]

Haha yeeah, it kinda boders me that Jordan monopolized much of the talk. Scott is such an interesting individual and, though he runs a podcast, it is not easy to find an epidsode in which he talks about his research. Anyways, interesting conversation.

[@ras_krystafari3333]

Looking better all the time, it's such a blessing to have you around again Sir! I grew up listening to 1000's of hour's of Alan Watts, Terrence McKenna, then Paul Staments, & later Ram Dass & You JBP last several years, your words & works saving Soul's & your collaborations with Akira The Don are absolutely magnificent & the best way your teachings will reach the masses, as you know for most that's everything! 🎶🎵 Giv3nTake Care 𝓛𝓸𝓿𝓮1𝔏o͒͊̕v̿̈́͝𝓮L̔͑̓o͒͊̕v̿̈́͝é͊̚L̵̢̼͓̒͋̽i̵̡͕͖̿͋͝g̸͍͕͕̈́͋̔h̸͕͚̞̓̓͠t̵͙̫̔̓̚

[@glynsmith60]

Got in early on this one...popcorn ready! Hi to all you fellow JBP community friends!😊

[@michaelhayashi2978]

Good day to you as well

[@RyanDavisSoftware]

Same here! 🤗

[@KingPancakez]

Hello 👋🏽

[@glynsmith60]

Hello Michael..Ryan..Razeo....have a great day y'all ! 👍

[@elektrotehnik94]

Early in for some classes, we are

[@jjuniper274]

I truly enjoy Dr. Kaufman. The thing I miss about leaving Twitter, was not following his feeds.

[@AzrentheLanguageNerd]

I am loving these interviews that JP has been making. They're so insightful & thought provoking! I like them better than his lectures, and that's saying something.

[@paulies5407]

Been on a roll as of late. Been a pleasure to behold.

[@advocate1563]

Yay! Two experts exchanging and collaborating without fear or favour. Thank you so much. This is the very best the Internet has to offer in value add.

[@TT-jc4ur]

So Beautiful to see Jordan back on his game, getting sharper and sharper. Conversational convalescence is working wonders.

[@rywilliam20]

Jordan’s guests: cracks a joke. Jordan: responds with deadpan seriousness. 😂❤️

[@kittentacticalwarfare1140]

Is even better because when someone laughs or so, he isn't telling them to stop or that is wrong. He just stays in 🦞 mode.

[@overdressed]

I love it, that just makes it so much awesomatastic if you do make him laugh. Just makes me so happy

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

Thank you for everything you do for us Dr. Peterson ❤️

[@piercescott8634]

I really appreciate the humility of Dr. Kaufman. Both he and Dr. Peterson are incredibly intelligent yet Dr. Kaufman knows Dr. Peterson has age and experience and is willing to soak it all in. I love it.

[@filmguy515]

I absolutely love Jordan Peterson. One of the things I love about him is his brilliant lines of questioning. So many of these doctors, writers, educators, have massive nepotism. Peterson is a self made man start listening at around 5:50 he asks him so he just responded to a cold letter?! And he quickly back tracks and says we'll yes but no I was an assistant researcher. The reason I highlight this and bring it up is due to the fact that so many of the people on power that run our conversation or thoughts are deeply connected. Just a side note.

[@pegah9413]

Wow, so many different branches were visited during this talk. My head started spinning and I had to pause many times just to digest what was going on. I think Jordan has to make a mini-series only talking to Kaufman and similar cognitive scientists and dedicate a whole episode on each of the topics they touched on. I sense I could learn much much more. Now, I have many tabs open on my browser searching the key words they have used to learn about each in depth on my own. Amazing podcast, it needs sequels for sure though!

[@SanjuroSan]

God damn this podcast is pure gold! I can't believe this is real, I've been wanting these type of conversations my whole life. Thank you everyone involved.

[@tylergibbs3106]

As a 47 yesr old American Male, after watching this convo in its entirety, I’m compelled to comment on how impressed I am with this content. As I’m sure Dr Peterson would appreciate, I was in “Awe” of his ability to answer Dr Kaufman’s seemingly genuine questions about responding to uncomfortable situations. I’m serious, this conversation (albeit over my education level in the beginning) was truly educational in a practical way that I will carry with me. So, thank you gentleman; well done.

[@tsmtsma6525]

Dr. Jordan Peterson is KNOCKING it out of the park. 🔥🔥 Get rid of the television and burn main mainstream media. Dr. Peterson's show is one where each and every guest is adding so much intellectual value to the world it's incredible. 👍🔥🔥

[@neilthepeel]

This was by far my favorite podcast and I’ve listened to almost all of them, much love to Jordan and Scott

[@150WPR]

Doctor Scott presents his thoughts in such a way that you want to listen more and Dr. Jordan does as well. I loved this and learned more about myself. and humans .

[@davekumarr]

Yes, this conversation definitely does model what sincere professionals do - which helps make our world better. It is thoughtfully delivered, encouraging & very informative. More of this, the world could use. Thank you very much for it - the both of you's

[@Gaonaism]

It's so refreshing watching two highly intelligent & accomplished individuals who are genuinely interested in having a productive dialogue about important social issues.

[@JaveGeddes]

I seriously didn't want this one to end.. Really amazing talk. Thank you both so much!

[@rubencrisitano9]

What a conversation this was. Fascinating leaves it short.

[@nbvw3]

Dr. Peterson, it never ceases to amaze me how you keep introducing me to people I never knew but who are really interesting and have highly pertinent things to say that feed directly or via detour into my own work (art). Thanks for that!

[@ArteneAllen]

Thank you for your courage Dr Peterson. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for the hope and grace that you project for humanity. This was a truly remarkable conversation.

[@forscherr2]

As a psychology student, I loved the conversation. Both of them have such a vast basis of knowledge and are able to play ideas back and forth is just great and it feels very engaging to follow their thoughts.

[@benditovicentecosta1710]

Beyond order, I just can't find the right words to describe how powerful this book is. Your list on Quora, just amazing. Both of them has been helped so much my life going forward since the first time i got them, and the the lives of the ones around me, it improved a lot my critical thinking, and helped me realize i used to be a little bit naive about many issues of life and aprouching problems. I hope you get it released in many more languages and countries so that i can share with my family, friends and so on. I'm in awe with your work and I wish you good luck from Angola. Thank you.

[@galenation4294]

Absorption of personalities. Explains so much. These discussions are phenomenal.

[@ApakmanMarquez]

These 2 gentlemen gave me 2 hours of one of the best conversations I've had the privilege of witnessing!

[@roddydykes7053]

You ever get the feeling these talks were meant to come to you, right at this specific time, tailor made to coincide with your current personal experiences? Absolutely awe-inspiring to listen to

[@evedotcom]

Yes, I absolutely feel this right now! I haven’t watched Jordan’s videos recently, and happened to watch this one out of the blue. Awe-inspiring is the right word. Felt like I was nerding out with the 2 of them.

[@swarden2]

yup.

[@jakek5904]

Thank you Mr. Peterson and Mr. Kaufman. Excellent conversation! Please keep the content coming. You look great by the way; awesome to see what appears to be you fully back in the saddle! Onward and upward! Godspeed. These conversations you provide do a great service; they have helped me to continually improve my thinking, curtail my presuppositions, and grow.

[@stefanielorimer9693]

Amazing! thank you Dr Kaufman and Dr Peterson. I've been reading Dr Kaufman's research for years (as an educator interested in creativity) and I've been listening to Dr Peterson "recreationally". How fantastic to hear you both in conversation!

[@daedra40]

This was one of the loveliest talks I have seen thus far on KZbin.

[@joelfooxiangjie]

I really like these interviews that explore theoretical psychology deeply more than the other exploratory interviews. So much useful information here to digest.

[@dranreb1118]

Is it really "theoretical" though? They do have psychometric evidence for this. You would never be considered a psychologist nowadays if you don't follow strict scientific procedure, unless your field is greivance studies.

[@joelfooxiangjie]

@@dranreb1118 Yes, in that if you notice they're both offering hypothesis on the phenomena they're discussing, avenues of experimentation that have not been explored, so they wouldn't have had psychometric evidence of those hypothesis yet. I say, 'theoretical' as it pertains to the theory of psychology.

[@meaningwarrior7330]

You might like John vervaeke’s awakening from the meaning crisis.

[@andrealeobons]

I’m half way in and I wish Dr. Peterson had these conversations with everyone he worked with on personality studies (sorry for any syntax error, English is not my first language). This is just too fascinating!! Amazing discussion. Please have more of this. Ever since I took the test and watch dr. Peterson’s classes and did the personality course I’ve longed for more in depth conversations about the topic. The course and the classes are awesome but there’s so much to know and this discussion is helping me understand better my test. I just hope there are many more in the way. :))) Thank you, dr. Peterson and dr. Barry!

[@kellydavis7709]

The second half is the best. They both simmer down and get to bashing each other's ideas productively and respectfully.

[@KristopherWilliams_tahmson]

One of the best podcasts I’ve ever heard Thank you both! Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, I will be purchasing your books

[@annelieseburgener7078]

I adore discussions relating neuroplasticity to personality! Thank you for helping me understand more about our wonderful world.

[@howiefelterup329]

These podcasts are great and are definitely well needed. However, I miss seeing Peterson in front of an audience that can interact with him physically. I wonder if he will ever get back to live speeches and talks like he used to do. Either way, I am still grateful for his return.

[@careym3901]

He plans too. Someone on twitter from India I think it was asking him if he'd ever lecture there. Answer was yes. So I think he plans to get back at it at some point. Right now his podcasting is going so well!

[@nlysts]

Probably will when covid ends.

[@von_2.0]

I’ve seen him getting back on the horse little by little and it’s been great so far. God willing he’ll be back to touring in due time.

[@shizzl0rable]

We’re so spoiled! Let’s wait for him to get ready and be grateful when he is. :)

[@dentonjordan6992]

Bet on it

[@jaouadbissbiss8641]

Whenever Jordan P touches on cognitive science with someone, I get attentive as hell to explore what I can do about my level of cognition.

[@malakaibeatser]

Every single one of these conversations is so nourishing it can hardly be described.

[@colleen412]

A wealth of Wisdom! I so appreciate being able to listen more than once. I cannot thank you enough.

[@dginev]

Very constructive conversation while accessible to non-experts in the field. Thank you for having it!

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

Children can have their eyes opened a lot more easily than with most adults !!

[@owentanzer6838]

As an undergraduate student studying cognitive psychology, I can't thank both Dr Peterson and Dr Kaufman enough. The content of this conversation was surprising, helpful, and immensely edifying. If only my university classes were as interesting...

[@hichamboulos1155]

Oh! and Dr. Peterson was exceptionally sharp on this podcast. Great to have you back Dr.

[@scorpiss9]

This is one of the most fascinating JBP podcasts so far!

[@Doutsoldome]

I agree! And the competition is tough.

[@thesofiafactor2566]

Oh my heart ❤️‍🩹 1:27:00 when JP said what’s your relationship with your father …. Absolutely surgical.

[@sword199723]

Watching these videos has provided me with invaluable insight on not only interesting topics but how to actually think! I love watching how Dr. Peterson picks apart information and approaches situations from so many angles. If I can model even a fraction of those thought processes Ill be a much better version of myself than yesterday lol.

[@joseph_moore]

Now Dr. Peterson has elevated the podcast universe. This was excellent. I can't wait for the next one! Well done.

[@PMC889]

THIS!!!! Yes!! Highly open, highly neurotic, moderately high IQ, creative, shape shifting always, oh my word....

[@j-rocgeo7499]

Not a podcast for everyone, in my estimation. I cant say that I followed the entire conversation, however I really enjoyed listening to two great minds bounce ideas off each other and expanding the others "Model" of the human experience. It makes me want to study psychology.

[@watchingbrain]

yeah, sometimes you need a fair bit of underlying knowledge (at the very very veeeery least all of JBPs lectures^^) to get the most out of these podcasts although there are plenty attempts to cue the audience in/ deliever the most needed basics but that has its very limits very soon. In addition: it is nearly impossible to have an honest discussion with one another where you try to go near your knowledge limit AND at the same time think about "does the audience got their basics on this subject/topic straight?" Sometimes you get it right and sometimes you dont. Most often you hit at least the general direction of your aim ;)

[@VeritasIncrebresco]

Interesting you say that, and you're right. But I read comments in another thread from a plumber and a carpenter who both followed the conversation well because they've been listening to all of JP's lectures over the years. Which would make sense, because it would take years of education just to be able to really follow this conversation properly. I'm really not trying to sound like a pompous ass when I say this - but this is not exactly a conversation you would expect blue collar tradesmen to follow - let alone be interested in - which is a testament to the scope of influence this man has had on people.

[@watchingbrain]

​@@VeritasIncrebresco thank you for your input. Since i tend to be in good faith towards other people (until signs of fuckery/dishonesty start to emerge) i can agree with your observations so far + i find them useful. On the other hand i can easily imagine someone swinging the "pompous ass" bat at your head rather vividly:D I would like to second your "which is a testament to the scope of influence this man has had on people". thanks again, ey :)

[@geirvassli]

For me, this one really stood out!! Competence, reciprocity and exploration. Facts are great and fun, but watching them explore and reason in real time, they had my attention from beginning to the end. Thank you!

[@anthonysimon4991]

It is so satisfying to hear such complex broad spectrum observations being formulated into concise information, I wish this was available 40 years ago.

[@sbain844]

Really happy to see Jordan back to his brilliant best. (Edit - forgot to praise his brilliant guests too!)

[@curtisvalle5141]

He's far from all the way back.. Another testament to his character

[@rebecka2422]

You can have all the creativity in the world but without an outlet its basically entertainment for yourself and not others. Sometimes that outlet is another person.

[@swarden2]

Creativity always finds an outlet, no? That’s my experience…e.g., if I’m not writing, it shows up in fashion, rearranging a room, reupholstering an ottoman, or finding old jewelry I have and switching it up somehow. I can’t NOT do something creative most days, it’s like an energy that builds on itself and MUST be expended? My Mom still laughs at me and my projects…shakes her head but thoroughly enjoys my brain. I’ve always been this way. Sigh. [[shrugs]]

[@COSE666]

Unbelievably foundational discussion gentlemen. One of your best podcasts yet Dr. P

[@Jerkasaur]

Been waiting for a podcast like this! Thank your Dr. Peterson

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

I'm an educator too, standing on the shoulders of giants !!

[@jimlyon7276]

To quote Sir Isaac Newton - "IF i CAN SEE FURTHER THAN OTHERS THAT'S BECAUSE i STAND ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS." - In his case his giants were the ancient Greeks ( & the fact that the English language is STILL based on the inadequate out dated 2 valued either/or logic of Aristotle is a major problem ! ) - BUT now we can upgrade & stand on the shoulders of DIFFERENT giants i.e. the Non Newtonian giants of the late 19th-early 20th century! BTW - I've replaced Aristotelian logic & upgraded to Non Newtonian MULTI valued holistic logic, which works much better :)

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

Send me some links about modern day giants, please !!

[@eamonmcullen]

Peterson may be the most articulate person on earth.

[@olahfsmart3630]

Of known intellectual

[@curtisvalle5141]

And he/s still feeling bad. Can't imagine the Hell he's been through....

[@beckiehodel7009]

Class time with Dr. JP 😃🙏 i love these informative podcasts. Thank you.

[@RyanDavisSoftware]

Absolutely amazing conversation between these two people. I was completely enthralled the entire time, in a good way. More like this!

[@philanthropicnightmare1206]

This podcast is so much fun!

[@bobwilkinsonguitar6142]

I know, Dr. Peterson, how stressful your life has been, but I beg you as a person thirsting for knowledge I know not how to seek, to continue your biblical lecture series. Thank you for everything you've done.

[@Mmmmkaaay]

I'd love to see the book of Job through his eyes.

[@colefunderburk6130]

Jordan certainly was his best self in this discussion. He was relaxed and didn’t seem to ever really get defensive. I see these sometimes and it uplifts me in a way that is profound. It’s like he knows so much and if you start a conversation in good faith he explains the entire world for you. Beautiful.

[@gregoryolenski4650]

Fantastic conversation Jordan and Scott. Thank you.

[@GML890]

Mr. Kaufman asked some critical questions that must be carefully crafted in life. Hard questions that must be carefully crafted.

[@dstubby82]

And here I was wondering what to listen to during my workout. ☺

[@johnhodges2846]

I allowed my mind to be absorbed by the analysis of different behavioural theories that filled this discussion. My emotions tracked to places of, what really and why so and so on. But when the discourse came to simply watching, listening and intentionally commenting on compassion-based subjects I had an aha moment. Your conversation transcended a difficult conversation I had with someone earlier today that followed this pattern. We had conversations in the past that were confrontational relating to scriptures and how they related to the life of a friend who is having great difficulties in making life choices and about whom we are both concerned. I realized that for the first time in our conversation there were compassion-based pauses, moments of silence, which in retrospect brought our dialogue to a different level, for the first time. Thank you both for helping me understand this application.

[@sheilac5319]

I really enjoyed this episode, including the dynamic between the two.

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

Everyone is entitled to basic respect but, beyond this, respect needs to be earned !!

[@gloriavalentine3849]

Being respectful and giving someone respect, in my mind are two different things. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, it is up to them after that.

[@martinhealourlovecamden9191]

That's a better way of explaining the same thing as me -- thanks, Gloria !!

[@TheDedexys]

This is an absolutely amazing conversation you're having! I haven't even finished it yet but I wanted to already leave a comment because the information I'm hearing here is so monumental for me. I score very high on openness and I have a lower latent inhibition.

[@TheDedexys]

I feel like you're basically having a conversation about me so this is super helpful🙈

[@TheDedexys]

Also watched again and yes, I feel like I have a "wider" personality than most because I adapt to others and I think I'm pretty unstable

[@jamesnewton5115]

Absolutely phenomenal podcast Dr. Peterson!

[@mrchrismarinelli]

Yes! An excellent model. Keep them coming. Thank you to both of you for your effort and care.