The Dark Origin of Your Favourite Fairy Tales

[@TimRrstrm]

In Denmark we have a relatively common saying from the Grimms' version of Cinderella: "chop off a heel and cut off a toe" meaning to make an ill-fitting or poorly thought out solution work to 'solve' a particular problem.

[@drsev61]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. 😉

[@VoidHalo]

That sounds sort of like a kluge in English. Basically a solution that's just slapped together in a way that does the job and nothing else. No thought or effort put into the design, just throw together whatever works. Never mind quality, safety, logic, and so on. It applies more to engineering, but can be used in the general sense.

[@ennykraft]

I'm German and grew up with the unedited version of the Grimm's tales. My mom would read them to me way before I could read myself.

[@darlenefraser3022]

And I take it that you were never emotionally scarred because of it!

[@BloodangelsNightcore]

Don't forget about the other "children's" storys he didn't touch upon. Max und Moritz, Struwwelpeter and the likes. All pretty graphic and cruel.

[@thepax2621]

​@@darlenefraser3022Maybe you would be 🙄🤷🏻‍♀️

[@bloodygoat6941]

My German grandma always told us the adult versions. Even as little kids

[@solleytara]

​@@BloodangelsNightcoreis Max und Moritz the same as Hansel and Gretel?

[@GallifreyanGinger]

Perreault didn't hesitate to hammer home his morals, either. Each story concluded with a poem laying it out. Little Red Riding Hood's poem explicitly pointed out that the most dangerous predators walk on two legs.

[@GallifreyanGinger]

@@SuperKendoman Don't go off the path and don't talk to strangers. The most charming strangers are the most dangerous.

[@SuperKendoman]

@@GallifreyanGinger Most charming? Like psychopaths? Man, these fairytales were really ahead of their time and the people telling those tales just wanted to keep their kids safe. I respect that

[@GrievousReborn]

@@SuperKendoman the writer said what the moral of the story is in the script and Simon read it in the video

[@Liquessen]

​@@GallifreyanGinger And take extra care with strangers, even flowers have their dangers, and though scary is exciting... "nice" is different from "good". /Into the woods

[@TheKrispyfort]

Don't talk to strangers

[@karenshadle365]

I'm 68 and learned to read quite early. I do recall reading a large, older book containing fairy tales and rhymes for children. Distinctly recall Cinderella being abused and the stepsisters cutting off their toes to try fitting into the glass slippers. Also remember the wolf in little Red Cap as you told it. None of these traumatized me. 😊

[@poonoi1968]

GenX 😁

[@frocat5163]

@@poonoi1968 Uh...someone 68 was born between July 1955 and June 1956...they're a Baby Boomer.

[@poonoi1968]

@@frocat5163 🤣Math

[@dfuher968]

Yeah, Im 51, so actual Gen X. I too learned to read early and was a voracious reader. My parents would let me read, whatever I wanted to, and I could just come to them and ask any questions. None of those old fairy tales traumatized me. Tho "The LIttle Girl with the Brimstones" never failed to make me cry, but my parents had a good talk to me about the story, so it was an early lesson in feeling compassion for others. First read that, when I was like 5y old.

[@thehun1234]

You have only a few years left to turn into a mass murderer because of the trauma those stories caused to you. 😉

[@Vaclav7760]

Red Ridding Hood story I grew up on (90's) was the dark one but instead of luring the wolf with sausages the huntsman and the ladies sewed rocks into wolf's open stomach. When the wolf woke up it got very thirsty, went to drink from well but when it leaned inside the well to drink the weight of rocks caused it to fall inside and drown

[@zlicko7735]

isn't that the story with the seven goats?

[@ThatGuyLondon]

YES! This is the version I remember and believed was the Grimm version

[@hmspretender]

I hadn't heard of that version before. That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

[@hmspretender]

Man, I really really wish our Renaissance Faire had survived past COVID, etc, because I loved live acting stories like this. 😊

[@jennyl7275]

I had a video of cartoon fairytales when I was younger. That was exactly how the story went. They even showed the wolf trying to hold on to the well with all 4 paws and the huge bloated belly hanging in it!

[@dannieandrews]

I did a whole section on this during my history degree and it is genuinely, to this day, one of my favourite topics to talk about. The societal reasons why these folk tales would be passed along is fascinating (and really gives you an insight into how life was like for the vast majority of people throughout our histories). A lot of the horror aspects were more-so commentary on how life was like in feudal society. Hansel and Grettel is a commentary on infanticide and the often evil step-mother archetype of a multitude of stories is a commentary on how mothers often died in childbirth and fathers had to remarry, and how any children from previous marriages would always outrank new siblings in inheritence. Similarly, the r*pe of Sleeping Beauty could be seen as a metaphor for how the nobility viewed the bodies and lives of their subjects without ever out-right inciting treason.

[@TheKrispyfort]

And, never get inebriated around entitled blokes

[@Djk3DD]

In Romania, the original versions of these stories would be called "pilde". We'd hear them from grandparents, it would often be really easy to see the meaning behind the story even as a kid. They would praise good traits (courage, hard work, kindness) and present the defeat of bad ones (laziness, cowardice, cruelty). My personal favorite is about a father kicking his lazy son out until he'd earn some money for himself by working. The mother in her kindness and mercy gives the boy money to present to his father, who throws the money in a fire. Seeing the boy's lack of reaction he tells him to WORK for his money. The boy returns after a few weeks to his father with money, this time earned. He again throws his money in the fire, but the boy this time reaches into the fire and burns his hands to save the money. The father tells him he can come back, having taught him a lesson. You can draw your own conclusions about the stories and why they are infinitely better than the sanitized ones we have today.

[@xhagast]

You ARE right, it IS a great story.

[@dinosaurwoman]

I studied storytelling in college--I have a B.A. in English with a focus on literature, creative writing, and storytelling. I took several mythology/fairytale classes, even Arabian and Native American. Fairytales were meant to be warnings, to basically frighten children but in a safe environment, so they would learn from the stories and make good choices. Sometimes I think we need to go back to this form of storytelling.

[@leopardscarf]

Fairy tales have nothing on nursery rhymes. I taught Kindergarten for 30 years and when i would explain what the rhymes meant, to other teachers, it would horrify them. The origins of tales has always fascinated me. The English could be stunningly dark.

[@cc1k435]

Still can. I know we think of them as having proper tea and lovely manners, but they also have a cruel history of conquering other lands and a sense of "racism" so well-honed that someone having the wrong accent will put it into effect. 😂

[@PhuckedUpPhilosophy]

We need a part 2 for this one ! I’ve been curious about these dark original tales for a while.

[@TrineDaely]

Check out The Ressurectionists (sp) and Jon Solo, they both go over the origins of fairy tales, nursery rhymes, etc.

[@whalefall413]

@@TrineDaely thanks. I was actually using this video as a researchless way of finding the originals, but was a bit disappointed at how little information I got.

[@ambertypereiraty3627]

Lol I had just posted a comment mentioning The Ressurectionists 😅 one of my favorite KZbin channels 🥰😍🥰 Each video is a deep dive into both fairy tales and nursery rhymes (with more of a focus on the latter) but VERY WELL DONE .. 🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️ And I CANNOT BELIEVE that I forgot to mention Jon Solo!! His channel REALLY gives a super deep dive into ALL of Disney's material.... He really gets into the specifics. I also want to mention, that when I was a child I happened to see the really old Anime version of "The Little Mermaid" and that was true to Grimm's original tale --right down to the sisters selling their hair to the Sea witch for a knife to kill the prince and his new bride so she could spread the blood over her legs to turn back into a mermaid lest she die at dawn by being turned into sea foam... They even included how her legs were incredibly painful for the mermaid as well. And I saw that BEFORE Disney's version...and even as a child,while Disney's was nice and flashy and all, I considered them separate stories...in fact I actually remember favoring the Anime version over the Disney one because it seemed too..."neat" and not as realistic in my mind as I was a very young reader myself and had been enamored with the mythology glossary in an encyclopedic dictionary and the stories referenced in there were never so "tidy" and "neatly resolved".... 😂idk I think it gave me a taste for the more graphic versions and the hard lessons they teach...

[@Furball891]

My grandmother had a huge book of the Grimm Brother's fairy tales when I was little. I vividly remember reading about the Cinderella's stepsisters trying to fit their too big feet into the glass slipper. Their mother handed them a knife and told them that when they live as princesses they won't be needing to walk anyway and fitting the slipper on was the most important thing. One stepsister cut her big toe off so the slipper fit, and for a while the prince was fooled, but on the way to the castle he noticed the glass slipper filling with blood. So he concluded that this is not the girl he was looking for and returned to the house. The other stepsister cut her heel off, and the glass slipper fit. Same thing happened again. (There might have been a part about birds singing to the prince to look at the bloody slipper, and afterwards pecking the stepsisters' eyes out, but I might misremember some of that). I think I was in the first grade when I read that book.

[@frocat5163]

I'm especially fond of the ending to Snow White in one of the versions I read during a folklore class in college. At Snow White's wedding to the prince, the evil queen was forced to wear a pair of red-hot iron shoes and dance until she died. Also, in _Rumpelstiltskin,_ when the miller's daughter / queen reveals Rumpelstiltskin's name, he stamps his foot so hard he gest stuck in the ground, and when he tries to free himself, he yanks on his foot so hard he tears himself in half. I love the real fairy tales...

[@jannetteberends8730]

@@frocat5163way more satisfying for children imo

[@tremorsfan]

Let's not forget the original version of The Little Mermaid. In order to get legs, the sea witch must cut out her tongue. And because her body is not meant for land, each step she takes is like walking on the blade of a knife.

[@jannetteberends8730]

And she didn’t get the prince. And now I think of it, isn’t it a warning against giving up yourself for someone that doesn’t really love you?

[@mattyt1961]

@@jannetteberends8730 I read it as being happy with what you have... or if you want something less positive 'stay in your lane'

[@ambertypereiraty3627]

Don't forget the consequence of turning into sea foam on the dawn of the third day.... I recommend looking into the Anime version of the story, it's true to Grimm's original tale....all the way to the end.

[@matthysloedolff]

​@@ambertypereiraty3627 Hans Christian Andersen from Denmark actually wrote this particular story. There's even a small statue in Copenhagen of the little mermaid (den lille havfrue) on a rock in the ocean, showing her becoming human. It's one of the most underwhelming tourist attractions there is if you're not a fan of fairytales.

[@GrievousReborn]

I think some of the Grimm versions could still be used today because kids can handle more than people think they can

[@chpsilva]

Maybe, but I am pretty sure their parents can't.

[@prometheus9096]

@@chpsilva perfectly said 🤣

[@fampic7133]

​@@chpsilvadon't make the rainbow people upset😂

[@Slla-th5vt]

Actually it is the adults who didn't want to see nor read the cruel version. But they window-dress it as "for kids" to remove those content.

[@angelfriend3710]

I remember going to the library, and reading every Grimm fairytale book they had. Yeah, it was pretty intense, but I was age 9 - 11 years old. I felt more like an adult reading about adult situations and intense stuff. I did, however, saw the stories as old tales from long ago, not any social commentary. I think Little Red Riding Hood made me remember not to talk to strangers...mostly, but I read them for entertainment. They were also written at a higher reading level, and again made me feel a little more adult like.

[@janeyrevanescence12]

Amateur folklorist here. An important thing to keep in mind is that the idea of children being innocent and needing protection is relatively new. A reason why people generally had more children than today is because there would be more hands to help out, which would then mean more food on the table. This began changing during the Enlightenment but took off during the Industrial Revolution. As technology and innovation made life easier and a new class began to emerge (the middle class), there was more leisure time and children were able to be, well, children. As time has gone on, the age of childhood has gotten longer because we’re not scrambling for survival. That’s not to say that parents back then hated their children or saw them purely as a means to an end. In most cases, it was far from it. They strove to teach valuable lessons and morals through stories that were easy to remember. Far more palatable to hear a story about evil and how it can be overcome instead of encountering evil and not have the tools necessary because you didn’t want to frighten them. In regard to Disney “sanitizing” stories…there was much more going on than just Disney being a prude. Filmmaking is a very different medium than oral or even written storytelling. You don’t have near as much time to devote to every single detail, especially in animation (which is probably the most involved filmmaking technique). Disney also had to deal with the Hays Code (a self governing body that dictated what can and can’t be shown on screen). By the time the Hays Code was abolished and filmmaking techniques evolved, Disney had developed its formula and, hey, if it ain’t broke, right? So were fairytales for children? Yes. But they were also for adults.

[@eirrenia]

There’s also the matter of the strict division of adult vs. children’s stories being a result of printed publishing market targeting. The lines were far more blurry before printed media.

[@alexp.d3689]

Thank you for pointing that out,a lot of these stories were toned down decades before Disney's birth, another thing to consider is that for some of his adaptations he used plays as inspirations not the stories themselves. Snow White was based on a 1916 film which was itself an adaptation of an early 1900's play loosely based on the 1857 version of Grimm's Snow White ( side note: in 1819 the Grimm's rewrote the story and made the evil mother a Stepmother, same thinf happened to Hansel and Gretel, due to their view of mitherhood as sacred. ) Pinocchio and Peter Panwere based on plays and Sleeping Beauty was based on Tchaikovsky's ballet, which was a loose adaptation of Perrault's 1697 tale ... Bassile's tale is pointless with next to no substance and also completely culturally irrelevant,with next to no adaptations in any medium ... A lot of the Grimm's tales fall into this pitfall , putting dark elements without considering the wider implications: Aschenputtel's prince being a moron for getting tricked twice by the sisters ,Snow White's and Aschenputtel's complete lack of reaction to their family members getting tortured Infront of them , which if you were to depict it on either stage or film within an earnest tone wouldn't work ( the Musical Into the Woods is a dark comedy as well as a parody of fairytales so it works. ) Walt improved Snow White's narrative and its more coherent and the characters are not as stupid as they are in the fairytale. The framework of Cinderella 1950 was based on Perrault's version with some elements of the Grimm's thrown in ,but in terms of character's and themes Disney's version is a new take on the story ,so comparing it to either Grimm's or Perrault's version is kinda pointless. Dark elements in a story should be well integrated within the narrative , like Collodi's Pinocchio or Hans Cristian Andersen's Littlest Mermaid, speaking of which ... Disney's changes to Collodi's Pinocchio made it so popular,there have been many book accurate adaptations of Collodi's Pinocchio done in both live action and animation,but they barely stand the test of Time to do their adherence to Collodi's spars aimless plot, unlikable , irritating protagonist and lack of emotional center. Disney's version, though not perfect, is straight forward, direct to the point,with a likable naive protagonist the audience are invested in and a strong emotional cemter with Gepetto's and Pinocchio's relationship which is almost non existent in the book , while not shying away from the darker elements of the tale ( like the Pleasure Island scene ) . Walt's changes to these stories never detracted from the central point of these tales , and in some instances he even enhanced them with his additional elements. Stories like Cinderella or Snow White are simple and maluable enough to allow for drastic changes in tone and make them love stories,Hans Cristian Andersen's Littlest Mermaid on the other hand is the EXACT OPPOSITE. Like Romeo and Juliet, it's a tragedy about confusing Lust for Love , Action and Consequence, the story is written so thoroughly that mindless alterations can ruin the whole thing . The point of the atory is that the protagonist and her Love interest cannot/SHOULD NOT end up together , turning it into a happily ever after misses the entire point of the story and Disney's Little Mermaid is a perfect example of how NOT to adapt a story . Both Disney's and Han's tale are about a teenager that lusts over a stranger and tries to pursue him without considering his point of view , Hans depicts her obsession as creepy and weird and has her face the harsh reality of the situation ( don't rush into relationships with strangers ,be considerate of other's people feeling and opinions ,love can't be forced on others ). Disney's completely ignores that part and even the whole thing withvfather daughter relationship is half-baked having only Triton change and learn but not Ariel,who was arguably more on the wrong than Triton ever was. Disney's version feels disingenuous lacking everything that made the original story mature interesting and great ... Disney's is popular and financially successful but a giant downgrade of the original story, Walt made attempts to adapt it in the late 30's but wisely gave up on it realising that the story can't be put into the Disney mold ... The ending is what makes the difference,in both stories the protagonist is on a selfish pursuit and in the book she grows,becomes more mature and considerate whilst in Disney's she causes a lot of trouble for a rather flimsy want ( again the book did it better ) and instead of rightfully being punished for her actions,she gets rewarded ... Unintentionally telling to teenagers to follow their heart's desires regardless of the consequences and be reckless,the original tale point is that sometimes you SHOULDN'T follow your heart because it will lead to disaster . Childer can handle way more than we think and concealing them of the darker aspects of reality harms them in the long run, giving them false expectations about the world and not equipping them with tge knowledge to navigate the darker aspects of reality . Getting them young means that these messages will stick with them for life , children's brsins are like sponges,they absorb everything . To quote Stephen Sondheim " Careful the things you say , Children will listen . Careful the things you do Children will see ,and learn. Children may not obey,but children will listen . Children will look to you ,for which way to turn,to learn what to be . Careful before you say " Listen to me " , children will listen ... "

[@eirrenia]

@@alexp.d3689 I agree on all counts. _The Little Mermaid_ as a show felt lacking to me even as a kid, though I couldn’t have explained why back then. Seeing it now…Ariel’s practically a Mary Sue, isn’t she? I grew up with the Grimm’s Fairytales and there are a lot of good lessons there. Even some of the gruesome bits. Like the punishment of the evil queen in _Snow White and the Seven Dwarves;_ dancing to death in shoes of red-hot iron is a perfect symbolic representation of what the queen allowed her vanity and jealousy to drive her to. If she had succeeded in killing Snow White, with the inevitable march of time there would have been another ‘fairest’ and another and another and another… because jealousy has no rest and no limits, and it kills the good in you that could otherwise live. The poisoned comb, the strangling corset, the poisoned apple, they all represent ways of pursuing artificial external beauty, when Snow White already possesses a natural unselfconscious beauty. Disney’s _Snow White,_ as much as I love it, reduces the lessons considerably.

[@dlo111]

Thank you for posting that, brilliant.

[@loislewis5229]

Astute insight 👍

[@midnite_rambler]

The first versions of any of these I read was in The Brothers Grimm Collected Stories. My Mum still had the copy she read as a little girl in the 1920's. They were pretty dark and scary to the young me.

[@Vee_of_the_Weald]

I remember being quite traumatised by Perrault’s _Peau d’Âne_ (Donkeyskin) growing up. This young princess has to disguise herself under the skin of a donkey in order to flee from her father’s advances towards her. Nice!

[@alicemilligan2699]

I remember this one but probably because I felt bad for the donkey 😂

[@Wandering_Nowhere]

Interesting how older versions taught valuable lessons. When I grew up in the 90s, fairy tales had already erased their original meanings.

[@nbarnes6225]

Morals were only added to the tales by the collectors who published them (and only as a publishing fad for a short period of time). The tales didn't originally have poetic or blatant moral explanations after them. They were just stories that were shared as entertainment.

[@Toastcat890]

Disney cleaned them up I remember reading the original Snow White and Cinderella in class during computer lab in middle school I was shocked to see how dark they were and then checked out a book of Grimms Fairytales and have been obsessed ever since

[@nbarnes6225]

@Toastcat890 I didn't say they didn't change them. I said they didn't change them "the most." And unless you went to school in an archive, you haven't even read the original written version. The Grimms immediately changed their version of the stories for a new publication. Everyone who collected folktales did. They changed elements that were confusing or too dark, they added morality sections at the end, they changed characters, and they changed locations and outcomes. Folktales have been changed countless times by countless people, and the thousands of publications are each different. So, who changed them "the most" out of all of that?

[@Shoelessjoe78]

​@@nbarnes6225Partially true but not fully true. It's more of a mix.

[@nbarnes6225]

@@Shoelessjoe78 Are you a folklorist?

[@TheKrispyfort]

I'm Australian and I grew up on the Old Stories. And what did I learn; Braids are strong. If someone is choking drop them. Men can't be trusted around inebriated women. If someone faints then loosen the clothing. A brick in time saves swine. And, Blue beards can be more dangerous than blue balls.

[@VeracityLH]

I must be weird, because I read the older versions first. Sleeping Beauty was raped, Snow White died, the Little Mermaid sacrificed herself and became seafoam, and Cinderella's slipper was fur. I laughed so hard seeing Into the Woods when Red's Grandma suggests putting stones in the Wolf's belly with stones "and then we'll watch him try to run away" because that was the version I had read first. I have a treasure. My neighbor was moving away and since I had babysat her kid for years, she gave me a gift. It was a fancily decorated and illustrated book of old fairy tales -all the old versions I knew. That was 40 years ago and I still love it

[@dfuher968]

Im Danish, so I grew up on H.C. Andersens fairy tales. The originals, not the wishy-washy Disney versions. It really made me an early critic of movies butchering original books. I think, I can count on 1 hand, when I have not been very disappointed in a movie adapted from a book, that I had already read. And I read a lot. Hence, I never really like the Disney versions, coz they seemed dishonest to me.

[@jannetteberends8730]

I think something is lost when children grew up with Disney instead of the original stories. (Including Winnie the Pooh) The sadness in Anderson’s stories is very wholesome somehow.

[@ReiverBlue1971]

Now with JUST that summary I'd be far more interested in watching a film of that grim a nature.

[@debbylou5729]

No, you aren’t unique. I did as well as other people I know

[@debbylou5729]

@@dfuher968not many people want to sit through a six hour movie. They can’t include everything. People who demand the entire book will never be happy. It’s a book; it would be impossible to take into account your imagination

[@davidhiatt1486]

Simon, the legend, helping American introverts out on the 4th of July! Thank you sir!

[@harristiller9631]

They day we rejected the British Empire and chose freedom?! Heck yeah!!! 🎉🎉🎉

[@LalaDepala_00]

​@@harristiller9631What kind of freedom do you have that the rest of the modern world doesn't? Try not paying your taxes and then tell me how free you are.

[@harristiller9631]

@@LalaDepala_00 what makes you think any society can stand in direct contradiction of The Social Contract? You think you are God? And I only pay requisite sale, duties, tariffs and property taxes. What are you talking about? I don't work for anyone else and I'm not a slave. You might consider joining me in the Law of the USA!

[@LalaDepala_00]

@@harristiller9631 No thanks I'm doing good where I am. You sound triggered.

[@harristiller9631]

@@LalaDepala_00 you sounded like you were attacking the Social Contract I swore to fight 7 times military and leo. What do you expect when you trigger the legal and lawful trigger for action? I will not be intimidated by pseudo Science pop psychology into agreement with lawlessness and lack of order. Nor will I suffer any allusion of inpropriety on my part! Understand now? You violate social contract equals game on! Let's play!!

[@marieroberts5664]

So much to unpack when diving into these stories, and I realize that you have to edit commentary down to a reasonable length, as well as to focus on the thesis of the topic, but there are a few things missing from this video, imho. 1. You mentioned the earliest tale, from Egypt... But not how it plays out. No abuse of the girl, or wicked step-anyones, but Pharaoh out for a ride, when a bird drops a tiny embroidered slipper, straight into his hand! He examines the embroidery and finds the craftsmanship to be exquisite and so he determines to make the owner of the shoe his wife. He follows the bird and finds a homestead, and then the one girl hiding behind the others...because she had only one shoe. The point here was that the lady was wellborn (tiny feet) and industrious and of course beautiful, and if a girl is hard working and good, she will be rewarded. God damn it my entire comment except for this is gone! Well good enough I guess, I can't recreate the entire thing now.

[@amandanowicki5294]

I took a class in Fairytales in college. The professor was shocked I'd already knew the original stories. Thanks Grandma.

[@bonnecherie]

I remember reading The Little Matchstick Girl when I was younger, and absolutely loved the story (can't remember if it was Grimm or Anderson who wrote it) and found out that Disney had made a short of it. It both did and didn't tell the same story, since some elements were the same, but it completely erased the fact that one, the girl was told to sell the matches or get beaten, and two, she essentially gave up on life just for a brief bit of warmth by lighting all of the matches at once. I can't remember everything about the differences but it was enough that it annoyed me.

[@jannetteberends8730]

It’s a typical sad Anderson story. Just like the little mermaid.

[@adriannaconnor6471]

I remember watching a non-Disney cartoon of The Little Matchstick Girl where the girl freezes to death. I was around 9 years old when I saw it and I wrote a poem about it where the girl dies in the end. It made it into the local newspaper but they changed the end so that the girl just got tired and she fell asleep. Apparently they couldn't handle a child discussing death.

[@MikeKojoteStone]

As an older German, I grew up with the Grimm-er versions of the tales. Although that was quite in line with some other 'educational entertainment'. I do have a soft spot for these. And also see some value in some of them. There's a tale called Der Eisenofen - literally the iron oven - that talks about a prince caged in an iron oven and a princess having to cross mountains made of swords and other painful obstacles to free him. There's an interpretation that this is a metaphrocial depiction of overcoming narccissism that's quite compelling. It lead me to look at the old tales from a different angle and look for possible life-lessons. Particularly, because many of the stories were told among women working together. There's sexual innuendo in them. And true advice baked in. It's fascinating.

[@abnurtharn2927]

Here in Norway we often have the story about the Troll that abduct the princess, and keep her as a slave. Truth is, that the princess didn´t necessarily disapprove to being kept as a "slave" by a "big" Troll who had collected a lot of gold and other treasures.... But as you say, sanitized for kids.

[@SuperKendoman]

A cautionary tale about child grooming or predators?

[@abnurtharn2927]

@@SuperKendoman Yea, and about sexual awakening.

[@TheKrispyfort]

An ancient Norweigan stealing a beautiful woman for his house. How unheard of

[@littlemissgwendolen1466]

I was born and raised in switzerland and growing up, I was read the “original” or non-edited Brother Grimm stories. I didn’t know that most kids don’t know the stories the way I did.

[@michaelmayhem350]

Finally the into the shadow we need.

[@pRODIGAL_sKEPTIC]

This is why Del Toro's Pinocchio is so awesome. It's dark like the original w the same brutal moral lessons

[@katwitanruna]

I own a beautifully illustrated copy of a medieval themed Snow White. In the end there is a picture of metal poutines (those long toed shoes) laying on the ground in front of the dungeon while the Prince and Princess are in color going up the stairs. Because the mother had been forced into red hot shoes and made to dance until she died.

[@asya2510]

If I remember correctly, in a picture book from my childhood the huntsman killed the wolf. I remember because I didn't like it much cause in a picture he looked too much like our family dog lol

[@andiward7068]

He had to cut open the wolf to get Gma back.

[@zlicko7735]

Growing up in Switzerland, I was raised with the uncensored version of the Grimm Fairy Tales. It's interesting that Psychological studies in the US (where the Disney version was common) showed how damaging the Disney adaptation are for children. At the same time, I have yet to hear of any studies or just consequences for the uncensored versions of the Grimm fairytales told in Central Europe. Censorship may be the true danger for children.

[@williamkline7922]

Do you remember any details on the differences?

[@Toastcat890]

Interesting never heard of that study but it makes since as the Disney versions are extremely unrealistic and sets you up for false hope

[@williamkline7922]

@@Toastcat890 yes, but it’s also not realistic for the devil to ask for your daughters literal hands that are replaced by silver prosthetics that later grow back. I don’t think the lack of realism is the interesting part of that statement. What is it about Disney’s unrealisticness that impacts kids negatively compared to the more brutal Grimm original or other interpretations

[@Toastcat890]

@@williamkline7922 The idea of your Prince Charming coming to sweep you off your feet and if you don’t think girls are affected by this think again plenty of women are looking for that perfect man sold to them by Disney and the romance genre in general.

[@williamkline7922]

@@Toastcat890 I didn’t say that. This is why I’m curious. If the lack of realism in one direction has a negative impact but the other doesn’t is why I think it’s important to investigate. I just want to know what the differences are.

[@zofiamcsparlin8239]

The most gruesome version of Red Riding Hood I’ve encountered includes the Wolf tricking the girl into cannibalism with the Grandmother’s flesh and blood, and also convincing her to undress before Wolf devours her.

[@MIALanfear]

I am 44 and British, and I had the darker versions of snow white and of Cinderella as.you described. It was Hansel and Gretel that frightened me more. The stepmother talking the father into leaving said children to die in the forest!

[@AaronScottLawford]

Quite interesting seeing the original versions. I also agree with modern storytelling, some stories we need to show kids just how dark the world is, as cautionary tales. Rugging kids up in cotton wool is the worse thing we can do, as in trying to never show them, that sometimes you lose, and you get nothing or no happy ending despite how hard you work, or how pure you are.

[@abnurtharn2927]

@AaronScottLawford Santa Claus does not exist, And there is no Easter Bunny You'll find out when you grow up That Big Bird isn't funny Life's gonna suck when you grow up, When you grow up, when you grow up Life's gonna suck when you grow up, It sucks pretty bad right now. You're gonna end up smoking crack, On you're back, face the fact You're gonna end up hooked on smack And then you're gonna die

[@jannetteberends8730]

Children probably prefer the more gruesome stories. And the sad ones like the little mermaid.

[@mortisrat]

I think it's also needed for developing emotional regulation. The first time a kid will experience grief, loss, terror etc it's not real, the story ends, it's supervised and can be come to terms with safely. By sheltering kids, the first time they experience these things it's real, and not all safe - and all that with no way of dealing with it.

[@LalaDepala_00]

​@@mortisratI know way too many 30+ year olds who have never experienced grief or loss. Not even a pet.

[@paigemalloy4276]

In the (dark) version of Little Red Riding Hood that I remember, it ended with the grandmother and girl placing stones in the wolf's stomach and sewing it up before escaping with the hunter, tricking the wolf into thinking he was still full from his meal so he would not chase after them once he awoke.

[@pamsharpe60]

I had a book of Grimms fairy tales back in the 1950s. What a frightening bunch of stories for a young child to read!

[@laurencollins2076]

Freeway with Reese Witherspoon and Kieffer Sutherland is a modern retelling of Red Riding Hood that is hard to beat, Reese is awesome in it!

[@michaeldenney1380]

I was lucky enough to stumble across a volume of a selection of fairy tales in their (as far as was known) original printed versions. My children were deeply disturbed. But more to the point, is Simon now the pinnacle of YT narration, or is it just *my* feed.

[@rons3634]

On another note, it looks like Simon has at least 11 channels. Gotta admire the hustle.

[@kathyastrom1315]

I had a feminist lit class in college back in the ‘80s where we read SF and fantasy written by women. We spent a week or two on both original fairy tales and ones that were reworkings of classic stories. Really fascinating stuff! My favorite stories were in Don’t Bet on the Prince, edited by Jack Zipes, who also edited the Grimm’s Fairy Tales collection I still have.

[@mttylerdurden9]

Anyone heard of this comic book called FABLES? It's about various fairy tale and folklore characters coming in the real world and living in New York. It has a game adaptation called THE WOLF AMONG US.

[@hooligansteriotype]

I'd love to see a longer format version of this content!!

[@mikeygallos5000]

How gruesome really is the fairytale we will tell our children about a man that trapped a group of people in a blazement forcing them to endlessly write and edit scripts for the ever expanding Whistlerverse? 🤔

[@Toastcat890]

I'm convinced he has clones and that's how he has so many channels.🤣😂

[@PetrSojnek]

Ohhh I thought you mean Santa and his elves :D

[@HS-su3cf]

@@PetrSojnek Have you ever seen Whistler and Santa in the same room?

[@PetrSojnek]

@@HS-su3cf Oh yeah! that's why Santa always wears a hat, so we can't see he is bald!

[@Ferdinand208]

Our current fairy tales are also pretty dark and teach bad lessons. Evil people are presented as heroes. The difference between good acts and bad acts is muddled as if they are subjective. Villains of the past are set in a new light where they are not that bad. Stealing is good. Building is bad.

[@khironkinney1667]

When I was in the second grade, our teacher read us one of the original versions of Cinderella it was pretty cool. I remember the evil stepsisters getting their eyes pecked out by Birds by the end of everything. As well as a bunch of other mutilation in between. Considering we were second graders, it was rather interesting that she tried to show us the progression of literature.

[@Aeryn4John]

Growing up I had a book of Grimm's fairy tales from 1910s. I got to read all the old versions which was great.

[@spider_pig7588]

When I was little I loved to read, so my parents got me the original unabridged version of grimms fairy tales. My childhood innocence was lost that day.

[@kaltaron1284]

人狼 (Jin-Rou = Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade) has an old German version of Little Red Riding Hood as a kind of framing devise. The old version are still available but more often toned down.

[@musashi939]

I loved that movie. Still need to check out the Korean live action adaption of it.

[@kaltaron1284]

@@musashi939 Completey forgot that there is one. It's one of the rare anime that are actually suited for kive action but the question is as always why? Let alone whether it reaches the quality of the original.

[@mattyt1961]

have to go re-watch it now... been a long time since I have seen it.

[@kaltaron1284]

@@mattyt1961 Worth it IMHO. The action scenes are great but the conspiracy and the fairytale angle make it so much better.

[@kryw10]

I was lucky to get the undiluted versions. They fascinated me. The reasons they were harsh is because sometimes life was harsh. They talked about things that really could happen. Steeped in magic and morals, but the intention of the cautionary tale always comes through.

[@hmspretender]

At my Renaissance Faire our group has a story teller (aka the Narrator) who, with us actors, told stories from Grimm tales, etc. One of my favorites was Snow White because the "queen" would send the huntsman to kill Snow White and bring back her heart in an ornate box (as instructed by the narrator). When he did the queen would immediately take out the heart and eat it raw. Often followed by the gasping shock of the audience. lmao. At least the ones who hadn't heard it before.

[@rons3634]

I knew from a young age of the Grimm versions of these fairytales and their harshness but never got around to reading them until recently. Disney couldn't show these tales in their original form due to restrictions on what could be shown on screen, but today it could be done. I wonder if someone has attempted to tell the original tales on film. Someone must have.

[@selbarton]

A kiss only a symbol of innocent love with consent if the girl is conscious to give consent, so even Disney showed a form of assault, just not the graphic level of the multitudes of assault Sleeping Beauty went through depending on the version as not all of the assaults resulted in conception.

[@MissRiny]

I'm German and I grew up on the Grimm stories. I never recognized them as particularly terrible but maybe thats because I have Aphantasia and don't see stories in grafic details.

[@December954]

ADHD rant 😂 When I was very young, my parents read me the slightly sanitised versions, then when I could read by myself (I think I was about 6) they gave me mum's old fairytale books which had the original versions by the Grimm brothers and other famous authors. I loved them. Mum and I both agree that Bluebeard was one of the best. It's her favourite, but my favourite is The Goose Girl which y'all should read. It has a talking dead horse head and an awesomely gruesome ending. Honestly I think it's the most gruesome ending ever. I love it and I've loved it since I was a kid. Also if something was too dark for me to handle reading, I would just stop reading it. The same with sex stuff, I would be like this is too intense, I don't want to read this so I would skip ahead to after the sex scene, until I was about 15/16. We didn't have any limits on what I was allowed to read, my parents just trusted me. And mum and I pretty much always read the same novels due to us liking them. I'd suggest ones to her and she'd suggest ones to me. The only ones I've seen on her shelves that she never did was the 50 Shades of Grey books, and since I also started reading erotica when I was an adult, I also don't give those ones to her to read. That'd just be weird because it's mostly about the sex and kinks you're into or interested in. We don't need to know that information about each other.

[@drazenbicanic3590]

Little Red Riding Hood's new version. And so Little Red Riding Hood walks through the forest until she hears from the bushes: - Baby, where are you going? - I'm bringing grandma food. - What do you have in the basket? - Bread, ham, cakes and wine. - And do you have toilet paper?

[@Scarletlight525]

I actually had a casette tape collection (yes, i'm that old) of the Grimm brothers' fairytales as a child. Not quite the original versions, slightly toned down, but definitely not Disney. I distinctly remember the red-hot shoes from Snow White, the cut off toes and heel from Cinderella and the version of Little Red Riding-Hood that I heard had the wolf being forced to eat rocks, then pushed into a well.

[@dlo111]

I'm from rural Canada and grew up with the unsanitized veraions. What the sister does to save her brother locked in the moon scared the hell out of me when I was too young to even go to school.

[@EAcapuccino]

04:43 - Guilty as charged I loved that when i was a boy, watched it countless times on VHS!

[@jakeherbert2950]

black screen to straight up fairy tails, was the biggest jump scare me and my child have had in ages lol thanks lol

[@stevenanderson9719]

I really liked this video. I've known for a long time that the fairy tales had been sanitized over the centuries to make them acceptable for modern society. When I was in school, I had a teacher who spent a class having a class on the morality of some of the fairy tales. If you want to think about this look at Hansel and Gretel. No one in the story comes out in a positive light.

[@theawesomeman9821]

As an adult who grew up a sensitive child, I appreciate Disney sanitizing my favorite stories growing up.

[@007kingifrit]

they made you weak

[@Terron35]

I remember my sister and I reading through an illustrated version of a bunch of fairy tales. The illustrations for Hansel and Gretel terrified us but we still read that story over and over

[@janestaton]

I remember hearing the Grimm's version of Cinderella (other fairytales too) from the fairytale book that my German grandmother gave me and Into the Woods.

[@aquietpatron7281]

The tales of olde do reflect a different world, children going into the woods alone and getting lost had a realistic chance of being a death sentence. Stories, punishments and consequences were far more harsh in the past, probably a reflection of reality that is unimaginable today.

[@hubertkowalewski2939]

Funny thing now I remember that my grandmother told me the grimm brothers version instead of the light version of these tales. Im not old either not even in 30s. Kinda funny when Simon mention "that is not the version you probably heard" .

[@khallkhall7237]

I think it's helpful to see this as the same process that happens now in society. An adult horror/thriller/action movie is made. Children aren't allowed to see it, but the sequel comes out and it's pg-13 and there's toys sold of it. These were tales adults told around the fire after the kids went to bed, which is the same mechanism as horror movies that become a pop culture fad. There's always parents who let their kids hear/see this stuff and the badge of maturity this exposure bestows makes it coveted and ever popular with children.

[@ProtagonistVon]

My grandmother gave me the original, or near original, audio books growing up. I really enjoyed them. Mind you, I’m a horror fan now, between that and and my cartoon choices.

[@jamesjennings-yd2bc]

When I did my NVQ in Childcare and Early education I did a presentation on how Disney has sanitised many fairy tales, as well as made the world think they wrote them.

[@jasminecaulden1089]

One version of story origins is Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. She did a lot of research about our childhood stories and how the actual story is different. It's a good book and both men and women are encouraged to read it.

[@ayakotami3318]

Half German but same. I remember being tomf the tales and then seeing the movies. Older me rewatching found myself scratching my head when I remembered the original stories. 😅

[@BahamutEx]

How does kissing a sleeping girl speaks of consent?

[@highlandoutsider]

Well, said didn't say "no" I guess🤷😅

[@badbiker666]

Did I hear Simon correctly? Did he say that Little Red Riding Hood and her Grandma set out saucers for the wolf. But, didn't the huntsman cut the two from the wolf's belly? Were Little Red Riding Hood and her Grandma baiting a different wolf? I admit, I have read a book of Grimm tales since I was in college, so I don't remember the stories very well.

[@Ashar781]

Wrapped that up beautifully 👌

[@R0bobb1e]

My Nana read me all of the old fairy tales. Her family still had the virtually ancient books as they were aristocracy. I was shocked when my friends would talk to me about fairy tales and had no idea just how horrific they really were. The books were so old I was not even allowed to touch them and she only ever handled them with gloves on. I had a fairly odd childhood compared to most kids my age, to say the least. I loved it all though. The education I received at home far exceeded anything I received at school, or well, via curriculum. My school was founded in 1794 and because I was a respectful kid, I was allowed access to the rare books section of the library, until another kid stole one of the books on ancient satanic worship and summoning (not the censored version of Christianity, but prior to the great purge of literature in the late 19th century), he decided to practice the things in the book at school and all of the books were taken away. I f*ckin hated him for doing that. It was my happy place.

[@kclightman]

I read once (I don't recall where) that the fact that the Evil Queen asked for Snow White's innards proves she was a lower class usurper rather than the rightful ruler, because a true ruler would have asked for a recognizable part, like an ear or part of her face, as they do with boars when they roast a part of it that proves it's the one they killed. I don't know how true that is, but it's an interesting tidbit.

[@bernadettedurbin1396]

Little Red Riding Hood, while not perhaps the oldest fairy tale we have, is the oldest one that we have in a recognizable format. The version found in 9th-century France is virtually the same as many of the versions that end with her death, with only minor variations. (Though there is one version where she escapes by claiming she needs to pee, and runs away.)

[@rinzo2009]

I believe that Netflix released an anime called the Grimm Brothers Tales (which aims to concentrate the tales that have been watered down by Disney).

[@mikemcconeghy4658]

In one of my favorite scenes from Star Trek Deep Space 9, a human shares the story of the boy who cried wolf with an alien. The alien responds that the story hardly seems suitable for children.

[@EnglishTeacher-ez1bo]

From the US, I read the Grimm Tales to my now 38 year old daughter when she was a child. I thought they were more realistic than the Disney versions.

[@seanrobertson1958]

i watch the ads every time to show my support for this channel

[@TobernSavage]

Would love to have a copy of all the original fairy tales! 😊

[@abnurtharn2927]

@TobernSavage They are all available, you just have to search the net. I can also recomend One Thousand and One Nights, a collection of Middle Eastern folktales/fairy tales.

[@hillockfarm8404]

Try project Gutenberg for digital versions of Grimm fairytales, they have a lot of older works digitized.

[@maxh3ad]

Born in the 70´s and had old books to read from my grandmother. old versions of the Brothers Grimm tales and to boot some Wilhelm Busch and "Der Struwwelpeter". Did not traumatize me but told me valuable lessons. Are some of the themes in these stories dark? - for sure but i think still for today children and even adults could use some darker stories - because sometimes life is dark.

[@StefanMedici]

The Grimm Brothers were their days Disney. The stories still had happy ever after endings. Life isn't happily ever after.

[@awsumaustin7650]

Ive heard that these stories were originally bad. Never would i have thought they were THIS bad.

[@SuperKendoman]

Reality is stranger than fiction sometimes, I remember my mother telling me about a cannibal king that ate only little babies because he liked how "tender" the meat was, he was so depraved that in royal courtyard he would have a fountain of wine and slabs of meat draped around like a forest of meat. Look up emperor Zhou if you're interested

[@carpetlayenful]

I used to collect short story collections running into different versions of Golden Goose, the king's daughter, and Stalk in Beans. * Edit - added- Some coming from abandoned schools from the early 20th century. Most coming from people's personal collections. It is crazy that many original book prints have not been archived. They are the 3rd printing or newer.

[@ensign926]

Netflix has a anime styled show called Grimm variations which takes some of the fairy tails back to it's dark origins I find it to be very enjoyable. The NBC show Grimm did a similar modern fantasy show addressing those stories and tails from all over and making it a police procedural was a great twist. I would say we have more dark versions of these stories now or would put it like we are going back to that style of storytelling which is good

[@simonsparaguay]

Growing up in the Uk in the 70s I'm pretty sure we had a copy of the Grimms tales, because they were the proper versions. I certainly remember red riding hood being cut out of the wolf.

[@danpavelko8414]

Finally, an Into the Shadows that I don't mind watching. Great episode Simon! Thanks!

[@richardwasserman]

My wife's Austrian grandmother strayed from the path she was told to stay on. She became lost in the woods but found a man she could ask for help. As she approached him she realized he was a suicide hanging from a tree. This was in 1907.

[@keithwalmsley1830]

Surprised Tarantino hasn't done a film version of the true Fairy Tales!!! 🤣

[@sophierobinson2738]

My old fairy tale book had a version of Red Riding Hood where the wolf was cut open and Red and Granny were saved.

[@Marcopiano07]

You should check out the original story of Pinocchio: it's full of violence. Pinocchio is presented as an almost unredeemable scoundrel who has to learn how to be good through a lot of suffering and punishments.

[@drazenbicanic3590]

The stories date back to the early Middle Ages. There were no schools then, but knowledge and moral messages were transmitted by telling stories. It was a cruel time and stories about the struggle between good and evil were cruel. As a child of about 4 years, I was given a set of fairy tales by the Brothers Grimm (original content) that they read to me before bed, and I never had a problem with it.

[@ayakotami3318]

Half German but remember hearing the actual stories growing up. Then watched the movies (VHS for most). Years later found myself scratching my head while rewatching and realizing they were wayyyyyy off the original story. 😅

[@nataliesian5262]

@intotheshadows SIMON!!! I would absolutely love you to add a channel that tells the original tales!! There are so many different versions of these tales, you'd have plenty of content lol. La belle et la bette is an excellent example of how mental, intricate and intense some of these tales get, but il pentanerone, kinder und hausmarchen, 1001 nights and the facetious nights of straperolla all have amazing, twisted tales! Please read us some stories!!

[@sandralofgren8266]

As a european (swedish) it always faschinates me that americans only know the Disney versions of these stories. We grew up with the Grimm Brothers and HC Andersen, but it doesn't seem many americans did. Very interesting cultural difference.

[@jasonhare8540]

They did the same thing with the Greek myths. For example Medusa becomes a gorgon because she cried out to Athena for help while she was being r@ped by Poseidon . Athena was so outraged that it happened in her temple that she punished Medusa .

[@jaxuys]

Always interesting to hear the of dark the origins; makes you wonder what is fantasy and horror. More interestingly is how modern storytelling has gone back to the 2 genres being intertwined and finding success!

[@baldbearddad]

Sondheim, alone, did these stories justice.

[@richardleatherman5075]

I read Bruno Bettelheim's "The Uses of Enchantment" in college. He preferred a Freudian evaluation of traditional fairy tales. Interesting read.