The Highest Level You Can Achieve as a Recreational Tennis Player

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Mentioned in Video: Tennis Mindset for Success 👉🏻 kzbin.info/www/bejne/noS1qmRoe99_nbs

[@nevercompensate1214]

I think one of the reasons people ask that is because deep inside they don’t want to accept that they were decades too late to master something. It’s a little bit sad when there’s something you really love doing later in life which you can’t take to the next level no matter how dedicated you are in your later years.

[@marquisekelly5431]

Yeah if you’re like 40

[@cheefussmith9380]

@@marquisekelly5431yeah, and you’ll like, be 40 one day

[@carlosdanielcalderonmontoy3723]

I am 25, I wanna reach my full potential, I am not giving up.

[@ReidVV]

For me it's not about high level competition. It's about getting better. I'm 61 now and playing better than I ever have (started playing regularly in 2014). My serve is good with power, placement, and spins. My forehand is also pretty good. My backhand is ok, but not a weapon. My volleying has also now improved greatly. All of my game needs work of course and improvement only comes through practice to develop correct muscle memory and to then maintain it. A big key also is consistency. Hitting the ball using correct technique is crucial, but also, basic, yet difficult things like ball recognition, movement, where to position yourself on court, and shot selection and placement all combine to create a player opponents do not like to see on the other side of the net. I'm happy to say I have upped that factor significantly in the last two years. I still have miles and miles to go, but the journey is a joy. Intuitive Tennis is a big help. Thanks.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Keep going James 🙌

[@lichaernuaiman6998]

True

[@TennisHaus]

Nice to see that , I have a 63 year old student who trains with me 3 x a week. Love working with him

[@ale03000]

Great job sir, continuous improvement mindset always. Beginner here early 30s learned a few months and still improving . .

[@davidbartilson4457]

For me, at 79, it's about maximizing fitness to play at my best so my shots don't break down later in the match. Learning techniques that facilitate hitting the ball harder with less effort but better, more accurate results. Recently learned to hit my forehand with increased pace and accuracy with less effort. Working now on a topspin backhand. Improved my serve to the point that I hit more service winners and the occasional ace. For me, it's about improving technique, fitness and extending life. But you're 100% correct: there us a ceiling that I shouldn't expect to exceed .

[@TennisHaus]

Love this! I hope I can still play at your age! Sending Much appreciation your way

[@Profesah_411]

That's very inspirational. I am 48 years old, picked up tennis in early 30s. Here's how I look at it. I have a huge passion to improve everything I do in life. What works for me is to only be concerned with HOW good can I become. I do this realistically though. Yes, I would love to be a 4.5, but I don't time to spend training, I may not even have the talent. But there's nothing to stop me from trying to be MY best. At the end of the day, that's what matters most.

[@brettneuberger6466]

Thanks for sharing your story! I love being inspired by people like you! At 57, I can get in my head at times thinking I’m old simply because I’m not as fit as I used to be. My grandpa lived to just shy of 103 and golfed five days a week….walking and carrying his clubs no less…until he was 98. He felt bad holding up faster players and wouldn’t even think of taking a cart. Ha! My grandma did the same until she passed at 90! Keep up the good work and best of luck in your tennis game!

[@inscrutablemungus4143]

This is true of ANY sport/skill. There is an intuition you learn as a child that cannot be recreated later in life. The best goals that one can set, IMO, are to be better tomorrow than you were today as opposed to wanting to beat a pro, etc.

[@microsickful]

28 yo male. I became a 4.0 at the end of last year. Decided to join a 4.5 league just for the sake of it, I was actually able to bring it to a third set tiebreak a couple of times with "low" 4.5 players that are barely hanging on to their 4.5 rating, but as soon as I played against like a mid 4.5 player (4.2ish dynamic rating), HOLY HELL I got decimated like 1-6 2-6. It's just making me realize how much of a solid combination of tenique, mindset, and brute physical fitness you need just to progress another 0.5 up. People say 3.5 to 4.0 is the toughest jump but honestly I feel like every 0.5 past 4.0 is even further away and far-fetched. I still would like to become a 4.5 though. Gave myself 2-3 years to do it. I used to only do strength training because "tennis is my cardio!" lol. But then I started to work on my core and mobility, and now I started running and training to run a 5k. I also used to be like 330 pounds when I was a 3.5 (I am 6'4 but still...), and then I lost almost 90 pounds(gained like 40 back, trying to lose again) in the past couple of years and only became a 4.0 this year. If ALL OF THESE are what's needed for me to even have a chance at becoming a 4.5 then just IMAGINE what it takes to become a 5.0 and above... I definitely got a little triggered as well when you were telling the story of your student saying she want to play against Serena 🤣

[@ale03000]

You're still a good strong player man, losing don't matter still experience gained and something to work on

[@HarryJohnson69]

Im a low 5.0 player. At my peak, I was a mid to high 5.0 but I only play for fun now. For me, it took about 2-3 years while I was in highschool to go from 4.5 to 5.0. It was a very difficult jump for me. I was playing everyday and then doing fitness after. I had a very strict diet and made sure that I was in good enough shape to play a 3 hour match in 90+ degree weather heat. People really shouldn’t get mad at the fact that as recreational players they can’t be at a 5.0 level. If most people had any clue what it actually took to get there, they’d surely give up on that goal

[@jonmccauley6490]

@@HarryJohnson69 I think you touched on what I thought of. The mental and physical aspect. At 5.0 the physicality of the players really jumps up. They are chasing down balls, and setting up for them well before a

[@HarryJohnson69]

@@jonmccauley6490 as you move up the NTRP levels, new worlds of tennis are revealed before your eyes. For example, the tactics at 5.0 are way more complex than at 4.5. The same is true for 5.5 compared to 5.0. While footwork is definitely important, I’d also like to add that anticipation skills are also a necessity. There are old guys (40+) that can still hang with me despite being so slow just because they can see the ball so early. They did studies on players and found that at higher levels of tennis, they see the ball way earlier. 3.5-4.0 knows where the ball is going around the time the ball crosses their side of the net. My level can tell where the ball is going around point of opponent’s contact. Guys on TV know before contact by just watching the opponent’s body. There are levels of tennis that normal recreational players will never be able to see that are pretty mind blowing

[@willecutlip]

Good analogy! One problem with tennis is that when you watch the pros on TV, the ball appears to be traveling a lot slower than it actually is. Speaking as a 62 year old who picked tennis back up after a 25 year break to help raise my kids, I challenge folks who start up later in life to watch a 4.5/5.0 match in person. It’s not just the speed that they hit at, it’s also how they can move the ball around the court. If you are even “standing” for a moment, you’re going to get killed. If you believe you’ve hit an awesome lob or drop shot, they’re going to get to it and give you an even harder shot to get to.

[@666kingdrummer]

Tennis is one of those sports that everyone thinks is easy, because most people only pay attention to it when the top pros are playing, and they make it look easy.

[@Kaylbee]

I saw Reilly Opelka at Indian Wells on the practice court last year and the speed he was hitting ground strokes made me realize how slow the ball looks on tv compared to reality. *Mind blown*

[@AJ-nd4nk]

Becoming a professional in any sports is extremely difficult. The probability of achieving that is low, even if you started under the age of 10. However, you can always improve your current situation. That should be your outlook on life.

[@jmills01]

Most team sports are incomparable to Tennis where there are only several 100 spots to fill proffesionally, whereas other sports have many 1000s in various leagues in any given country. Tennis extremely different to many other team sports in that regard.

[@vectorthurm]

I picked up tennis as a 5 year old on my own and I remember just hitting against the wall out in the country because I had no court or anyone to play with. Happiest moments of my life with my Miss Chris Wilson😊 Sadly even though I started young I quit for like 25 years but I’m so happy I picked up the racquet again 5 years ago👍❤️🎾

[@Shaunsweeney-Kubach71]

When I was a child I used to try and play like Aaron Krickstein and Andre Agassi. I loved Aaron’s heart and determination, and I loved how Andre attacked the serve. Little Joshua is 16 and he is amazing with that I phone. I have had an I phone for a few years now and I am still learning how this phone works. I started playing tennis at age 16 and we played every day. I found surfing to much harder than tennis, but tennis made me better at surfing and better at being more social and learn a lot of things about life. I was rated a 4.5 and before I stopped I was rated a 5.0. But after 24 year hiatus I still am able to hit every shot, and I just love playing tennis and learning more about the game. Great video Coach. Some people just have to learn the hard way! Pros are on an entirely different level than amateurs.

[@joepalumbo5340]

I'm in my 70's having begun to learn tennis at 50 ... so to say there's a ceiling to my aspirations is an understatement. But among the reasons why I'm addicted to the game, beyond just the opportunity to engage in athletic activity, is the continued scope for learning and improvement. Psychologies differ, but I would recommend trying to draw enjoyment from the process of getting better - at least in some aspect or another of the game: I may not be a better player than I was 15 years ago, but, for example, my serve is better. That where I get my satisfaction ... not dreaming of getting to 5.0

[@TennisHaus]

As I said earlier in one of my comments so much admiration for you guys in the 70’s and 80’s I pray I’ll be still able to just play

[@michaelboyko5024]

Hi, Nick, thanks a lot for this video! And I would like to suggest that you make a video demonstrating the levels' play, a serve and a point. Right beginning with level one proceeding to level 5. That would be a really interesting one video. Thanks a lot!

[@glebz7294]

+1

[@prabhakarbhat2477]

Yes, this is an excellent suggestion.

[@topspin1715]

+1

[@TennisHaus]

I want to see that too

[@smohan123]

great idea

[@rikh78]

I agree with this 100% - I tell my son when he asks about playing Football (Soccer) professionally that first he needs to be the best player in his team, then play in higher age groups and still be the best. Then be the best player in the County, then play nationally....and so on. It's not crushing dreams, it's being realistic and honest - focus on the first goal and when you achieve it move up to the next one.

[@TennisHaus]

Love what you tell your son

[@pedrox96]

Had a friend who was far from being the best at my school (we played futsal). He started super late to play real football (on a football pitch) at a small team in my town. A few years go by and I find out he was playing professionally for a huge club in my country (Palmeiras) and now he is playing in the first league in Portugal. Hard work and discipline will get your boy anywhere he wants, it's not about being the best (at least when it comes to football).

[@gareth2736]

​@@pedrox96lad at my school play semi professional rugby despite not being in the 1st XV until the final year - he was playing in the 3rds (not even the 2nds) when there were kids in our year in the 1st XV - its a very physical sport though and I think he always had a lot of speed but developed strength later (and worked really hard in the weight room) but i bet he didn't have the most natural talent for the sport in my year group.

[@seanschulze5418]

Thanks for the video.Totally agree with you. I am a recreational tennis player and a professional classical musician and many of the same things apply to both. We live in a society where people are taught they can do anything if they really want to....the cold hard reality is that this is simply not true. I am similarly insulted by how naive most people are about the time, dedication and sacrifice needed to perform at a professional level.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Well said

[@mikeparishy]

so true,,took the game up at 41,,quickly got to a 3.5 on athleticism only,,realized i needed technique,,learned some,,took time and got to a 4.0,,,it takes alot of work when your learning as an adult!!! great video bud

[@HiFilover168]

I started to play tennis 20 years ago and never had any lesson. I learned from the book and now on KZbin. My children paid 5 tennis lessons for me as Xmas gift last year. This nice local instructor corrected all my forehand, backhand, serve and footwork etc. At age of 65, I have so much to learn in tennis and I know I can improve my skill down the road. BTW, my skill on the smart phone is kindergarten level.😅

[@lukas.540]

My goal when learning tennis has always been to eventually get to a level where strategy starts to become a more serious component. At the lowest levels, everyone is shanking the ball and serving improperly and it's really just about getting the ball over the net. But I think around 4.5 is when strategy comes into play and considerations for different styles. My goal is to get to a level of tennis where I construct points, rather than pray my opponent misses.

[@MyAlexjohnson]

I’ve always been super competitive in everything I’ve done. Grew up playing Rugby in the UK. Starting at age 9 until 16 played 6 times a week for 2-3 hours (rugby is tough on your body), was top point scorer for my club almost every season in my age group and even then I never even got close to high level Rugby. I definitely can understand how early you have to start and the hours you have to put in to to reach high level in tennis. Even so, starting tennis at 21 having played for a few years now I can’t switch off that tiny hope to play at high level tennis (sorry for the insult!). Going to be playing in my first summer league competition for a club this year. My ultimate aim is to take part in a good standard singles tournament. Long way to go, but hitting tennis balls fills me with a joy that’ll keep me coming back forever. Won’t stop till I drop.

[@tennisteuton]

Good luck on your journey and your torunaments! In any case, you will have to go through the 5.0 level first, so the only way is through...

[@Monaleenian]

Playing rugby at a high level is something that you can learn to do in a few years though. That's evidenced by the fact that 6'6" Jérôme Thion only began playing rugby at the age of 21, having played basketball up to that point, and became a successful professional player. Tom COurt became a professional player, representing Ireland, despite being a shot putter who only took up rugby at the age of 24 while at university. Rugby is not a game that relies on skill all that much in certain key positions. It's not like tennis. If you're born with the right genetics, that allow you to grow really tall or to become very big and strong (possibly to respond very well to small doses of the most undetectable steroids), then you can go all the way to the top if you put in the comparatively very short period of time required to learn the skills for those positions that depend so much more on physical attributes. Tennis is not like that though. Even if you're born with the right genetics to reach the very pinnacle of the sport, if you start too late in life you can't overcome the skill deficit.

[@jesusvillacis7409]

Brotha i feel the same way!!!

[@MAELOB]

It is hard, even at recreational level getting to 5.0 is super hard less than 2%. 4.5 is around 10% of overall players. But I am still dreaming about it 😉💪🏼

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Keep going 🙌

[@2ddw]

...and there it is: Nikola at his most brutally honest. :) I'd also add that if one masters tennis at a young age, it is always there. Akin to riding a bike. My son, who now rarely plays because he's studying his brains out, will come home after 6 months of not playing, play with his parents, and his strokes and footwork come back literally within minutes! It's simply amazing. Adult learners are like: "my game is crap, I haven't played in a week".

[@MeikeBabelTennis]

I LOVE this video! And I love the way how you just lay it out there without sugar-coating anything. I agree, most people really don't know what it takes to even play an entry level challenger on either tour. It seems like I have to get my German/ grumpy side out a bit more when some of my students ask me what they're chances are for turning pro 🙂

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Thank you Meike. I want everyone to know that I was your ballboy once at the Warsteiner Masters 😎🙌

[@MeikeBabelTennis]

@@IntuitiveTennis Those were the days!

[@luiscota6262]

Can i just say that I love this exchange here? Really enjoy both of your channels!

[@2ddw]

@@IntuitiveTennis Ahhhh! That is what I could aspire to.

[@spooky1304]

@@MeikeBabelTennis Legend :)

[@hyungjunkim2616]

Thank you for the preaching. These contents are what differentiate your video from other tennis videos. It really comes from your experience of high level tennis and its not just tennis lessons its view into life as a tennis player, tennis fanatics

[@クリームイカ]

I started from a young age, and I can reach high level for sure. Nick, there's still young people watching you

[@EdmonBegoli]

Thanks for the video Nick. One kind request - please make videos for 3.5 to 4 development because that is considered the hardest barrier to cross. Some statistics note that most rec. players stay at a 3.5 level their whole life, if they started tennis as amateurs and adults.

[@info781]

I would agree, 3.5 to 4.0 is the toughest jump, I will always be 3.5. People who were high level soccer, baseball or hockey players have the footwork and speed, so once they learn the technical part they can generally get to 4.5 level in 4 or so years playing a few times a week.

[@TennisHaus]

Shot placement, reading your opponent & anticipation on top of a high fitness level & finishing points at the net

[@2ddw]

@@info781 Agree! Having that athletic background really helps. If you're a couch potato and then pick up tennis, consider yourself lucky to make it to 3.5. I know one guy who was a 3.0 for a couple of years then went to 3.5 and then 4.0 in another two years. Basically, once he figured out the game. He used to be a pitcher for Pepperdine...his reflexes were the quickest in the club. Simply an amazing athlete.

[@warehouse13graphicsolutions]

That's because a 3.5 has ZERO concept of working the point to their advantage. And, they can't hit with any directionals to speak of. They simply just hit. Zero strategy.

[@TheDmonet]

I achieved this in my mid 40s. 3.5 to 4.0 is mostly consistency. It's hitting bigger targets and never hitting the next ball harder just because it comes back. It's rarely double faulting. It's maybe improving fitness. To me the jump from 4.0 to 4.5 would be impossible at this point in my life while working full time and having kids. It would require an hour or training 4 to 5 times per week with a coach..not matches.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

I completely agree and I didn’t find the video insulting at all, I started when I was 13,My dad started playing tennis in high school and he played for a few years, but then he quit for a long time and then he didn’t start playing again until his late 40s.

[@damansidhu77]

Totally agree.. I started at an older age even though I loved the game as a child but never got the opportunity. I started in mid 30's, am a 4.0 now at 44. I'm aiming for 4.5 hopefully in a next couple of years. 5.0 players are far and few at the rec level.

[@rikkkretue4945]

There are some thoughts to this video: goal setting vs. dreams. I think it is important to dream. Any kid, regardless of sport dream of playing somewhere at some high level one day. If you look at other avenues in life, it is no different. However, the goals must be achievable but stretched and continue to stretch in order to get to “that” level. I don’t know if anyone should or could put a cap on a goal that could potentially crushed a dream. On the other hand, reality must also be a factor as well. Some kids are just not meant to play “that” sport or that “position”

[@shawnrobertson5481]

I love your response and don't see it as mean in the slightest. I grew up and played tennis in the mid-west, USA around the area Jack Sock played in High School. While he is quite younger than me, I constantly heard the rumblings of his domination in our area and have even played with a few people who went to high school with him. His high school record was I believe 80-0, most being pretty straight forward bagels. It's just a testament to how far the divide a pro level player is compared to the average recreational player( maybe a few 5.0's at some schools), and how important talent and dedication are. I'm just not sure why Jack stuck around here so long beating up on us mere mortals.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Big Jack Sock fan. Hope he finds his form. Best American player currently IMO

[@Lance54689]

There are those things that are easy to do badly and hard to do badly. Playing the violin is hard to play badly. Few people are going to think they can become a concert violinist. Taking photos is easy to do badly, and there are many folks who think they can be a pro photographer will little effort. I think tennis is in between. It is not super easy to play badly, but with a few years of moderate practice most can play badly. For me to go from 4.0 to between 4.5-5.0 took two years of really hard work, a serious reworking of my game and lots of fitness improvements. Developing a 2HBH after a lifetime of a 1HBH and completely redoing how I move on the court almost broke my brain.

[@genki3183]

The truth will set you free. I started in 2020 when I was 64. during the Covid. They closed the courts during my first year. I was a 2.0-2.5. Today I’m a 3.5 on a good day. On the way I’ve gone through back aches shoulder aches and hip aches that actually hurt. I love the game and play it all the time. But it’s not a game for sissies! My goal is to play like the 4.0s and 4.5 I play with on the court. To be competitive. It’s all two steps forward and one step back. Like the man says it takes time and practice. I think about reaching the top of the hill not the hundred hills I have to climb. That would be frustrating and no fun. But it’s nice reaching the top of the hill.

[@itfaster]

same here, started to play when I was 48 during the Covid. just want to be a better player every day.

[@LeslieTaylor]

Appreciate your take here. I think a lot of people don’t realize how big a gap there is between 5.0 and e.g. an ATP Pro, not because they are cocky as much as because the pros make it seem easy. In reality, the level of fitness and skill is just on another level. I’m 38 and just started within the last year. I did play a little in high school and college (I’m talking super basic) but have played a lot of table tennis and other sports. That has helped in advancing now, but I’m realistic enough to know my limits. My current tennis school has 6 levels (I’m in Japan), and reaching even level 5 will be a big challenge! That is my goal, plus being able to competently participate in appropriate local tournaments. If I can do that, I’ll feel pretty happy with myself!

[@TyrelWhilden]

Where in Japan are you? My school (in Chiba) also has six levels, and the gap between each level is very noticeable.

[@LeslieTaylor]

@@TyrelWhilden Nice! I also live in Chiba, in the Matsudo area. Where are you at in Chiba? And yes, I find the best way to think of the levels is to think of someone who just moved up into the next. If you compare a beginner in first level to a beginner in second level and so on, the gap is definitely significant.

[@TyrelWhilden]

Get out of town! I'm in Kashiwa. If you ever want to hit around, let me know.

[@LeslieTaylor]

@@TyrelWhilden That would be awesome. What level are you? I'm still pretty new. Right now at my school I'm in level 2, though my feeling is that I'm probably getting very near to entering 3. I just played some matches with Inspirits today. Crazy hot day for it, but still fun.

[@TyrelWhilden]

@@LeslieTaylor I'm a lowish level five, but my wife is a high level two. I'm free most weekday mornings and love to rally with anyone who can get the ball over the net. Also, if you speak decent japanese I can probably introduce you to some people you'd enjoy hitting with.

[@Bubbles99718]

That's always a fascinating topic. Most people never experience high level athletes 1st hand. Till you experience it it's difficult to wrap your head around. Played D1 hockey in college. Occasionally skated against some pro's. Always a mind boggling experience

[@tennisteuton]

While it might be "nice" to think about playing at the highest possible level, managing expectations is the absolute key to becoming better. I even like to set goals that are entirely under my control - for example, showing up to my training, playing a certain number of matches a month, etc. I aim for improving every day by focusing on specific details of my swings, and it takes as long as it takes. Of course, I want to achieve the highest level possible, but if I end up plateauing at the 3.5 level, so be it. As long as you always push yourself a little bit and never let your games and practice become routine, you'll proceed in your tennis journey.

[@elizamongephoto]

I just started 2 years ago and I am a 3.0 player. I would be thrilled if I could ever reach a 5.0 level in the future. I think it's amazing!

[@IntuitiveTennis]

💯

[@lyd9828]

Excellent video. It is only when you start learning the sport properly you start to appreciate the golf between various levels of ability - from beginner to recreational to club level, county, national etc. And there are levels of ability within those. Tennis is one of those sports (like many others) that looks easier than it actually is. If we take your serve for example, looks so easy to do when you hit them on video, you just throw the ball up and you hit it…. right... but the reality is that it take years and years of practice. I play at a decent club level and play inter-club tournaments and I have friends (who last played tennis 10 years ago at a recreational level) legitimately think they can beat me and when we actually play are shocked they can barely maintain a rally of 1. Conversely I have a friend who played nationally up until he was 18, but plays little now, but I know I am lucky if I win 3 or 4 game a set. Do you think tennis gets the respect it deserves for the athleticism required to play at the elite level?

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Don’t think it gets enough respect. It is one of the most physically and mentally demanding sports.

[@TennisHaus]

Great comment

[@KENGHUABAI]

what he said is true, it s even rare to see someone become 5.0 if they didnt start as a kid

[@drmoto64]

You are right on the money on this. I have a nephew who started tennis very young (thanks to me!) and was nationally ranked as a junior, as high as #23, and played D1 tennis. He was also a superb athlete. I started at age 12, still pretty serious about my game but I am 71 and sometimes my body does not cooperate. I did OK at 4.5 twenty years ago, although I think ratings were a bit inflated then. For any adult who is a true 5.0, they have to be quite talented and have to put in a lot of work. I am very impressed by any adult who can win 40-50% or more of their matches at 5.0. That is very high level.

[@gabrielfonseca99]

I grew up playing against the wall here in Brazil because I couldn't afford tennis classes and now that I have a job and my own money I want to push myself to my limit and get better to play tournaments in the future. But you are absolutely right, it's a race and I started 15 years later than everybody. There are some things that I will never not be able to do and it's fine, I just want to see how far I can go really.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Keep going 🙌🙌

[@reuelray]

Realistically the average person will only achieve a 3.5. I made it briefly to 4.0. While assisting at a tennis class at a small college, a girl told me when she finished the class, she was going to focus on her academics and then come back as a pro in 4 years. She got angry and hurt when I shut that conversation down. At that same school a 30-something 3.5 strong athletic teacher with a120 mph serve, entered some type of USTA tournament and got bounced very quickly. A 3.5 16-year-old who had only been playing about 2 years, asked me to help him get on his schools D1 college team roster. I told him it wasn't going to happen and to aim for the USTA on campus team in 4 years. We trained really hard. We would play eight game high school set matches and I always won. I reminded him over and over if he cannot win against a mid-60s 3.5 there is no chance to play higher. Really glad you made this video I hope it becomes viral.

[@TheTOShow1]

I'm 37 and started playing tennis again two months after about an 8 year break. I was a 3.5 when I stopped and now I'm probably a low 3.5 now. I'm determined to get to 4.0. I started lessons and I'm going to 4.0 clinics. Thank you for the video!

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Keep going 🔥

[@ncournault]

Spot on Nik. My thoughts: 1/ Though technique can be learned (and should), adults will have always an incredible hard time with timing and footwork no matter how hard they practice. 2/ The amount of repetition needed to keep improving by just 10% after the initial stages (say first year or so) is incredibly time-consuming, expensive and physically crushing (say hi to tendonitis!). 3/ If ego is your main driver for improvement, you will eventually hate yourself and hate tennis. 4/ Tennis can and should be enjoyed for what it is: an art, a physical activity, a socializing activity, a learning journey. Not a competition with yourself or others.

[@mochotrana]

To each his own, for me to be better at anything I do than I was previously is always a top priority, so it is definitely a competition with myself. As for the artistic aspect of it - the tennis on tv is art, the tennis on recreational courts is more like child paintings

[@donho4109]

🤙

[@commondirtbagz7130]

Framework is difficult to learn at an adult level. It usually falls off in match play.

[@TennisHaus]

Technique once taught correctly becomes a craft of repetition

[@itfaster]

Save your last quote with mirror tweat. Tennis can and should be enjoyed for what it is: an art, a physical activity, a socializing activity, a learning journey. Not a competition with others. I still think it is a competition against myself, It is one of motivation to keep me going to the court to be a better player every day.

[@ColdBrew_1]

I think its possible to achieve this on some very talented people. I started playing when I was 10 for 2 years(3x a week, 1hr/session, few months on, few months off cycle), I would say I was 3.5 that time when I stopped completely. After 14 years, I played for 1.5-2 months (1-3 times a week, and mostly just hitting with the wall) and people are saying Im a 4.0. Now, if I was able to do that, Im sure there are people out there who are way more talented, stronger, way more capable, and has more money/resources (its so expensive to train in tennis) than me that can improve in insanely short period of time.

[@ezrajames143]

This is really spot on and I get why that is insulting to you! The audacity. haha. Hopefully people will understand how much dedication and time go into becoming a high level tennis player (or high level anything) after watching this. I agree that it's much more satisfying to focus on small and attainable goals anyhow.

[@donho4109]

Great topic for discussion, Nick! I enjoyed going through the comments to see where people stood on this discussion item. I agree with you.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Thank you Don. Hope you’re doing good 🙌

[@tomsd8656]

True. I started playing tennis and soccer as a kid. Both of these sports feel natural to me and I have always had the confidence that I could improve with practice. I just didn't put in enough practice time so therefore I don't progress. But the confidence and the ease that I feel when hitting the tennis ball is there. But I learned to play basketball when I was already 14 or 15 and I was never comfortable with it. My movement was never as natural as the kids growing up playing basketball.

[@georgesalmeron5055]

Thank God. Thanks so much. Finally a voice reason amongst all the online coaches who will promise you anything to get you to watch their videos and buy their lessons. Most good players are not going to make it to 5.0 either.

[@ale03000]

Early 30s male & just completed beginner training (ground strokes, slice, serve, volleys) always trying to improve. My coach said I'm better than average beginner who usually takes 6-12 months to just rally properly. Kind of consistent ground strokes, serve & volleys with something like proper form after just 4 months of training. Playing 3-5 times a week & 2 times strength training with bodyweight or weights on top on tennis, so base fitness is ok. I grew up playing a lot of sports including faster sports like badminton & table tennis which helped to have better coordination, ball sense & timing. Love gaming too which helped to have better reflexes & hand eye coordination. You need both to play better as tennis is one of the hardest sport to learn. I believe anything can be learned, the phone example the more you use it the faster you get once you're familiar with your phone, & trying to be a better recreational player 😅 So if you learn the right techniques from the beginning with a good coach to prevent bad habits which takes longer to correct. Train with the right techniques & progressions multiple times a week & lift some weights too is ideal you'll improve pretty fast regardless of age, but some sports background helps quite a lot. You can be a good recreational player which is good enough for me. Just started as 2.0 GTN doubles with my bro first in Malaysia. But I kind of agree with his point, if you want to be as good as a pro, start as young as possible

[@關島-g4b]

It is true for almost everything in life. How often people think that they can outsmart Warren Buffett in the stock market or outdrive Lewis Hamilton on a freeway, etc., etc. Most of us have never worked our butts off and ended up thinking too highly of ourselves.

[@IronJohn755]

I'm just starting to play tennis again after a long break, and enjoying the process of improving. My other sport is rock climbing, where the "levels" (grades) are much more objective, and lead to a lot of unrealistic goals for new climbers. The truth is, the elite level requires not only a lifetime of constant commitment, but rare athleticism/physical attributes, and a very tough mindset that most people don't have. I am a "pretty good" recreational climber (low-mid 5.12 lead, if that means anything). The difference between me and a very good recreational climber (low-mid 5.13s) is probably insurmountable at my age. It would just require too much gain in strength for me to achieve unless I plan to commit totally for 5 years. The difference between them and professionals, as you say, would involve a time machine and probably being a totally different person. I've stood under world-class outdoor routes and couldn't even contemplate attempting them. Being elite at a sport doesn't make you a better person, but there are objective realities to how the mind and body were formed, and how they were trained into that elite level. People should just be happy with incremental gains and be realistic about where they're starting from.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Thank for the comparison Interesting

[@julianmirano5001]

Love how honest you are Nick. It is insulting, absolutely. Having coached high school state championship caliber players, it’s absolutely unbelievable how leveling works in tennis. These players I’ve coached can compete for a high school state championship, but they don’t even stand a chance at making it to a major D1 school. They are probably a 5.5 level, maybe slightly more, but they can’t even get to D1. And D1 players hardly ever make it to the pros. You are right- so insulting.

[@DurpenHeimer]

Yup. Just watch the video of Mark Sansait (a seasoned 4.5 who recently was promoted to 5.0) beating a high school state champ. Of course it is not officially sanctioned, but it goes to show that even at a HS state competition level, you are just another above-average player at the rec level

[@theroadrunnerjarhead4109]

I’m just a hacker but I believe anybody taking up tennis should take lessons from a teaching pro to learn to hit the forehand, backhand, serve, and volleys. They should also find a practice partner that they can drill with and practice what they’ve learned. Play both doubles and singles in leagues. And stay in good shape. Drilling and practice really helps me. It’s also more fun when one knows how to hit the shots correctly.

[@NishkamTheGeneral]

Harsh truth. As an enthusiastic man who started playing tennis at 33, I appreciate the reality check! 🙏

[@thomasmedeiros5722]

I appreciate Nick’s assessment of the possibility and rate of developing tennis skills as we age. I was fortunate to have started when I was in college and had extensive athletic experience playing basketball and baseball. I learned and was trained by a high level teaching professional who like Nick was a no nonsense coach who helped me build my game around strong consistent ground strokes. I already had the footwork, speed and an understanding of setting up points from basketball and the tactics of changing spin, placement and serving according to the score from pitching baseball. Getting lots of on court hitting and practice with good hitting partners is essential. Playing lots of league and tournaments over years is important. What really made a difference once I got to the start of that 4.5 level was more professional help to develop a strong net game to finish off points. Most players only stay with their baseline game because they are afraid to change so they stall and don’t advance. Having a strong all court game really makes a difference especially at the higher levels. I ended up coaching high school tennis and getting PTR certified. Nick reminds me of the two teaching professionals that helped me. I also have been fortunate to have attended many ATP tournaments. You can learn a lot watching guys like Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe from behind the baseline.

[@squashg5159]

Nick, thanks for your explanation. I'm a recreation tennis player and don't know what is my rating but last few years I made great progress investing most of the time in my fitness. Especially in my body flexibilty.

[@JasonFurlong]

I think this is pretty accurate. I’m a 30 year old 5.0 player. I started playing at 13 (too late to reach the dreams I had for myself). I do think though if I developed a good serve and got much better footwork, I could be closer to a 5.5, but easier said than done of course. 5.5’s are no joke. Lol

[@geepeeone]

4.25 NTRP which is considered solid 4.5; BUT it's not a good spot to be in. Very few rec players get to 4.5; you'll find yourself incessantly playing down. Boredom sets in. Sweet spot is 3.75 - 4.0 NTRP to match favorably just a tad bit better against the biggest segment of the playing population. You can show up at the courts and expect to be challenged but never blown out of the match.

[@AlexandreAlapetite]

It would be nice to include UTR equivalences. For us abroad, it makes it easier to relate to / compare. Thanks for the great videos!

[@masscantbecreatedordestroy8868]

5.0 NTRP is about 8-10 UTR

[@aceserv01]

I wouldn't call it "Audacity". It's just not fully understanding what it takes to play that level of tennis. Discouraging ANY player from wanting to be the best, regardless of their age could be considered poor coaching. If they're willing to work, they will find out on their own some of what it takes to play at the pro level, and will probably adjust their expectations. I'm not advocating giving false hope, but laying out a training schedule and seeing what happens.

[@SeGaean]

Hi nik, you are right and i am fully agree with your explaination. I am 45 years old, playing good in where we are now for me is more than enough.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Keep going 🙌🙌

[@TennisHaus]

Love this

[@casinowiz007]

A good athlete in his 30s or 40s (former hs or college not tennis), can pick up tennis and rise to 4.0 rather quickly, maybe 2-3 years. However, they struggle to reach next level because it hasn’t been enough time to fine tune mechanics and match experience.

[@georgesalmeron5055]

Thank God. Someone speaking for truth. Thanks so much. Finally a voice in the wilderness amongst all the coaches who will promise you anything to get. you to watch their videos and buy their lessons. For the record, lots of very good recreation players won't make it to 5.0 either.

[@mjj3132]

Not just lots, but the vast majority. 5.0 is almost exclusively reserved for those who played at a high level at a young age- ex HS stars, people who played in college (often D1)- AND continued playing regularly (a lot of people with similar backgrounds, but who stopped playing for a long time, end up at 4.5). Someone who can make 5.0 from scratch, say as a player who never played until they were over 18, either has exceptional athletic ability (that probably showed in other sports) or extreme dedication. Probably both.

[@georgesalmeron5055]

Honesty is so important to getting better in tennis or anything. I appreciate the honesty on intuitive tennis and in your response. Of course there are players who can make it to 5.0. They are called outliers. More power to them. The rest of us can improve which is good enough for me.

[@grantchen2324]

Having hope is good, it's what carried the human race through hard times. Instead of day dreaming, put in the work and chase after one small goal at a time. love the game regardless of the outcome!

[@tennisteuton]

It also seems to me that up to the 5.0 level, tennis is fun, the higher you get though, the more work it becomes. You likely have to optimize your diet and off-court workouts, have a clean sleep schedule and spend more than just two hours of playing every day. You need to pay a serious coach. You need to travel to tournaments a lot. You might injure yourself because your joints aren't quite as flexible anymore than 20 years ago. So even if you are that one in a million miracle adult player that makes it to the pro-level, is that really something that you want? And if you really really do want it, you probably wouldn't just casually wonder whether you can get to the 5.5+ level, you'd be training like a maniac every day.

[@charlesdang2557]

Aging works in funny ways. Take a player who used to crush you in high school tennis because he was trained at an early age. Give him 20 years. If he does not keep up with the sport and gets swamped by life issues, you actually have a real chance at matching him or even beating him. Now of course, there is no glory in beating a faded player. The point is that it takes an enormous effort to get there, but also a great deal to maintain it too. Time can be a great equalizer, but to Nick's point, there is no time in the world that will allow me to climb that high. Don't forget to play some tennis and enjoy!

[@ale03000]

Ya it'll even out due to fitness issues if he don't workout, but technique wise he's still better if he trains again for a few months

[@hcscuoteguazza]

I think part of the reason why someone might think they could play professionally without starting early is that TV doesn't do justice to the level of professional play. TV seems to slow the pace down tremendously. When I see matches in person I'm impressed with how much faster the balls pros hit than it appears on TV. I found even where you sit in the stands changes your perspective. I've sat in the row of seats that are on the grass along the sideline at Newport then moved to the stands behind the baseline. When sitting on the side I could see how fast the shots were but I was even more impressed by the spins the pros put on their shots when looking at them from behind. I've also hit with a 4.5 player at my club and was impressed how the pace and depth of his shots pushed me off balance. I could only imagine what it would be like to hit against a pro!

[@konstantinkhodchenko8369]

Started playing at around 23 , never had a coach, and i reached the 4.5 level at about 28.. Im 33 now, and unfortunately I just can’t get better than that, doesn’t matter how hard and often I practice. Its kinda frustrating to be stuck at 4.5, I would really wand to get to 5.0 somehow. I believe it might be impossible without a coach..

[@27blanx]

You can do it. You already limited yourself but it’s possible.

[@IIIRAYDENIII]

Simply love your short stories and overall honesty!!

[@izziic4527]

Wooohooo Love your content! I'm starting to get back into tennis more this summer, your videos help so much! thank you!

[@maxxvelox2852]

Wow, this video is great for so many reasons. Candid and to the point. Good analogy (although someone commented about learning a language that I think is another really great analogy). You don't waste time hedging your opinion to account for the one in a million that could exceed reasonable expectations. Thanks for the great content!

[@gomriria2197]

Another anology it is like playing piano. But in the piano if you start at 30 you can have a good level at 50 your hands can still handle it but in tennis the more you age the less your body can handle training and matches..

[@info781]

That is the tough part, even if you have unlimited time and money, injuries and slow recovery are always an issue in tennis.

[@BAYC9992]

So Nick, where can I buy one of these time machines?

[@ted4ty]

i'll be satisfied with 4.5 level.

[@escgoogle3865]

4.5 with a STRONG athletics back ground with minimal lessons and constantly practicing up. I watched a 28y.o ex divII scholarship point guard jump from 3.0 learner to mid 4.0 in two summers, scary stuff. The guy was crazy focused with lighting speed/reaction.

[@georgesalmeron5055]

Thank God, finally someone speaks for truth. Thanks so much. Finally a voice of reason in the wilderness of coaches who will promise you anything to get you to watch their videos and buy their lessons. A huge number of very good recreation players don't make 5.0. either.

[@kostisv]

Nick you don't need to be insulted. It is not from disrespect that your students make this question. It is lack of knowledge.

[@georgemavrides3434]

One thing missing here is talent. You can't always teach intuitive ball feel and timing at recreational level. So NTRP5.0 is just a skill level based on your shot making capabilities after years of practise. Going beyond is indeed a different beast but getting there can vary based on the individual and doesn't have to take decades.

[@higgsboson9212]

It is about how long and consistent you train. A guy starts training at 30 and continues training diligently vs a guy starts at 6 but stops at 30, the first guy still has a good chance to win when they have the same age.

[@azzamgalal5350]

I'll see if I can break this myth. Started at 31 and reached 4.0 in 6 months. Let's see where it goes.

[@DonYang73]

4.5 to 5 is a big jump despite the 0.5 diff 😃

[@enrico200165]

Great video, very clearn and honest.

[@edmondakong]

Nick, it’d be great if you had a 5.0 player play some points in one of your videos. We’d love to see visually your definition of a 5.0 player.

[@victor-536]

It would still be pretty cool to reach 5.0. You’ll still be probably the best player within your social circle, and depending where you live, in your neighborhood or town.

[@serveyourname5565]

As I've told you guys before, learning to play tennis is somewhat like learning to speak a completely foreign language. No matter how hard you try, you can hardly reach the level of educated native speakers. And the age is a highly important factor as well. Personally I started to teach myself Chinese and German at the same time about 11 years ago, while assuming that I could sort of "master" them if I were a linguistic "genius". Result: I rarely utter a full sentence correctly in Chinese and German. Being middle-aged is quite a big barrier to perfecting anything new, whether it be a language or a sport. But your best weapon is wisdom combined with some creativity. I have no psychological complex vis-a-vis native speakers or tennis pros, since my own way of learning new foreign stuff is extremely creative. As far as my tennis techniques are concerned, many of you might be amazed to see how original they are. Of course I'm still awkward on court, but my creativity is somewhat brilliant at the rec level. And that's the way I personally enjoy it.

[@timefly4221]

The flip side is that at least there is a chance to be a recreational tennis player for life. With team competitive sports you start as a youth, every season there are tryouts and cuts, and at some point the scouts / coaches will tell you that your career is over.

[@jasonkishore3400]

I’m 19 and just started tennis and I’m going to prove you wrong

[@DanTuber]

Once played with this 13 yr old kid who "wanted to go pro". He won 2 games over 2 sets. So many people live in fantasy land.

[@quinby123]

Your student can get a realistic evaluation of her ability by signing up for a USTA Open level tournament. In CA and FL she'll get some tough competition with many ex college players and if she can win a few rounds then she may have some real talent.

[@CoachAdrian]

Time machine, good suggestion! 🤣👍

[@derekng8454]

Personally I find it plenty hard work already trying to achieve a reasonable recreational level. Im just enjoying making small steady improvements over time through coaching lessons and playing more. But most importantly my immediate goal is to keep myself free from future injuries through working out in the gym and following the guidlines from my physio.

[@yutakobayashi3460]

I disagree with the philosophy that recreational players can’t convert to the high level. Maybe if you start tennis past your thirties, it’s quite the impossible task. However, if you’re athletic with some skill and sense and perhaps still relatively young, I’d argue that you can push the boundaries to 5.5. I’ve seen many baseball kids convert to tennis late in high school and make it high in the varsity level. Some athletes convert to tennis in college and become good enough to play for money in smaller tournaments, coach the juniors. I started when I was 6, was always middle of the pack. Saw many who started after me make it far in the college level, some even touring pro. Thought I sucked until my coach told me that it was because I was only as good as the best recreational players and at the time, was trying to compete with high ranked juniors trying to go professional. The gap between amateur and professional is tremendous, and between tour level pro is on another stratosphere, but at least between advanced and high level, I believe it’s not necessarily the age but the intangibles, like game sense, feel for the ball, athletic ability, consistency, and mental toughness that are more important differences.

[@nicheavener5215]

I’ve taught professionally now for 10 years and been the director at my club for 5. Unfortunately I run into this a lot. For whatever reason I feel tennis gets a wrap for being easy to untrained people who don’t understand the levels of play. High level players through footwork and ground strokes can make this game look very simple. I occasionally give some of my 4.0s and 4.5s some perspective and hit a few shoots for real with them and they are blown away and I remind them if they think I’m good I was only the 5th seed on a smaller division 1 program lol

[@Bubbles99718]

Until people see high skill 1st hand they don't understand it. One of life's little realities

[@williamdobbs6740]

Love the iPhone analogy! I'd be happy to get to 4.0-4.5 range.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

💯🔥🙌 keep going

[@johnnacke4134]

Nick, great videos… I’m a 73 year old senior, great shape, can run like a deer and I only play singles because i want the workout. I’m a solid 3.5… I want to become a legitimate 4.0 before i cash in my chips. Is this a realistic goal for me??? Ciao, John

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Definitely John, next step is 4.0 keep going 🙌🙌

[@2ddw]

Why not?

[@fsilber330]

The NTRP rating system came out during the last years when it was still not uncommon for people to still use wooden rackets. The Guidelines described the stroke quality that typified each level. With widespread availability of slow-motion video, self-videoing, and lightweight, forgiving, powerful rackets, it is now quite common for recreational players to play at the 5.0 level as per those guidelines. However, because standards have been raised since then, most of them call themselves and are called by others "3.5-level players." For women, the world's top 50 professional women in 1981 represented the 7.0 level. Today's women play several levels above that 7.0 level -- but no additional levels have been added to the NTRP to reflect that. Instead, we just redefine everybody's level downward.

[@grumpyoldman1784]

The one thing that is achievable as you get older and seems to be a naturally increasing talent is the ability to achieve a higher level of grumpiness 😂, I bet I could beat Nadal at that! I went from a 3.0 to pro in grumpiness within 2 years, amazing!

[@Doty6String]

Shoooot 5.0 is pretty good! I’d be happy at that

[@Doty6String]

Also it must take 20 years to get to “open level” training your butt off. Start when you’re 30, your now 50, and too old to play open level...!

[@huntersims1966]

It seems that most recreational tennis players get stuck at the 3.5 or 4.0 level. It also seems that many recreational players are overrated by 1 level. A 4.5 recreational player is not equivalent to a 4.5 college player (the latter is usually much better). I live in a college town where there are several Div 3 tennis programs as well as a competitive Div 1 program (University of Kentucky). I've found that Div 3 players are generally strong 4.5-strong 5.0 (some of the number 1 players may even be 5.5, as they could've played Div 1 or 2 but received a full scholarship to play Div 3). Compare this with University of Kentucky's top player, Liam Draxl, an NCAA Divi 1 semi-finalist, ITA's #1 ranked player in 2021, and a doubles champion of an ATP challenger event. He's probably 6.0 and will someday become an ATP tour level player. As for me, I'm just hoping to become a solid 4.5 player. I may even quit playing tennis after achieving that goal, as I have other things I'd like to achieve.

[@MrHitthespot]

I m 66 and been playing for a year and a half. I would say I’m at the 3.0 level I’m getting better everyday but am very frustrated at the slow progress. Your assessment is exactly the same the pro at the club tells me. Just starting to play at 64 i can forget about hitting 125 mph serves. I’m playing with the regular club players but want to be good enough to play on the advanced level nights. I am highly competitive and in fairly good shape but age and the late start is killing me.

[@errajota]

To sum up; Don't confuse hard goal with fantasy

[@JanChodura68]

I have friend which is much much better to me. He playes a lot and competes in official regional tournaments. And he played with TOP 150 WTA with no chance. And as I imagine TOP5 WTA has no chance with "above-average" early junior player.... I know my limitations.