Involuntary Hospitalization of the Psychiatric Patient: Should it be Abolished? (USPHS, 1969)

[@Knightgil]

Having being involuntarily commited and unfairly so, I will say, with no doubt, that it should indeed be abolished, that it's an abomination and a crime against humanity that exists as a tool of social control. To claim it serves a therapeutic purpose is laughable. I left much worse than when I came in and I can only imagine the same goes to other patients.

[@dane1808]

When my grandmother was involuntarily committed, her children told relatives that she'd been lining them up with a gun to take them to heaven. That would've been 8 small children with their heads blown off, but her family got her help when she refused to get it herself. When I was committed, I had no memory of several days, other than breaking my fingers, taking off my clothes in the hallway of a clinic, and walking somewhere dangerous. Involuntary commitment should be used in emergencies like these, and also in the case of people who aren't in their right mind while they commit crime, people who wouldn't be served in any way by going to prison. I don't think involuntary commitments should be abolished, but used sparingly.

[@KaylaMarie-ox8le]

@@dane1808the majority of people aren’t a danger to others, and committed no crimes. Many aren’t a danger to themselves either. Prison doesn’t really serve anyone how it is either way, and ought to be reformed, but not abolished. However, some who have been to prison and psych wards say psych wards are worse.

[@edenwylie8917]

@@dane1808 i am with Kayla on this, ideally prison (as it is) and psych wards (as they are) should not exist. temporary holding might be needed sometimes, but therapy centers should not have locked doors except to keep people out. look up "Soteria Past & Present" to see how hospitals without locked doors and recovery without forced medication yields a Much better result for sufferers in the long term, including those in severe crisis either psychotic or suicidal.

[@amberalden4965]

Same. Thought they were gonna give me a heartattack inwas an experiment product now I have headaches everyday but I'm scared of accidentally overdosing on medicine because I can be careless

[@amberalden4965]

​@@KaylaMarie-ox8lepsychwards suck because they mix men and women

[@caneprints]

Oh how refreshing it was to witness a debate without people screaming and talking over each other. I think the world would be a better place if we could have more such intellectual and civil debates like this.

[@johnbostrom3923]

The persons participating in this discussion are (were) brilliant psychiatrists. The interactions are on a very high level. I am extremely thankful for the people that preserved this gem for us.

[@johannasnothere]

Szasz is such a masterful debater, the other guy is no match for him.

[@DovinRain]

The other man, Jules Massman sounded like he sold his soul, ten times over, Very Scary listening to his propaganda. Tom Szasa, on the other hand, actually understands the direct threat against freedom this kind of sterilizing industry has had.

[@ognjenmilanovic7057]

The second person was so funny. ''Let's not get personal.....just scientific facts between us'' proceeds with only personal information and insults

[@martinhynes768]

I was incarcerated for chemical imbalance Cured now!!!! Chemical imbalance found to be a sales technique

[@simsim5919]

the problem is the way they have treated people, with lobotomies, shock treatment, drugs and forced drugs, treatment orders of forced drugs, if they focussed on caring therapies such as counselling with only genuine people who are not their for power over others but have an interest in helping others as staff and other non drug, non violent, non retraints, non shock, non psychologically abusive and controlling programs, they would have helped people, Thomaz szazz tried but failed to get them on the right path but they did not listen due to pharmacuetical companies influence and many sadists.

[@p3tr0114]

@6:36 "In my opinion he is not a patient, he is a person, an individual who feels troubled." It might not even be a person that feels troubled. It could be a person with no problems at all. It's pretty clear why this must be the case because psychiatrists do not use sufficient evidence when diagnosing people with so-called mental illnesses. What that means is that anyone randomly can at any time be diagnosed as mentally ill. The "so-called mental illnesses" are also in themselves not backed by sufficient evidence. And without sufficient evidence the "illnesses" become fictions/something make-believe created by the psychiatrists.

[@edenwylie8917]

i cracked it. it's psychopaths. their condition is genetic and evolved around exploiting empathy through language. the estimate of 1% might as well have been pulled out of a hat as they can not be studied. there could be as many as 5% of them. they collect in positions of power as they outcompete others and it is clear to me that psychiatry is a field that is saturated with psychopaths. they can identify each other. there is only one conspiracy that matters and it is both ancient and global.

[@nihil8436]

That happened to me, it has since been confirmed that I do not have any "mental illness." By a simple diagnosis such as schizophrenia, they assigned symptoms to me, I didn't experience them, they said I did, it is used to stigmatise and control people.

[@p3tr0114]

@@nihil8436 It's been long confirmed that they cannot tell who is 'mentally-ill'.

[@edenwylie8917]

Nihil i am of the opinion that a disproportionate number of high-functioning psychopaths become psychiatrists

[@nihil8436]

@@edenwylie8917 Definatley, I agree, same applies to psych nurses. The terrible thing is, in their position there is no accountability as the "patient" is already discredited just by being labelled "mentally ill," which leaves them to continually abuse and torture people with no repurcussions sadly.

[@ADAMSIXTIES]

Thanks to Thomas Szasz for blowiing the whistle on the most evil institution in history: psychiatry.

[@EkaraLibrae]

Psychiatrists inquisition should be prosecuted and sentence to a lengthy jail term for involuntary detainment and crimes against the patient...

[@p3tr0114]

Crimes against humanity more like it.

[@animalkindness]

they are criminals. I was taken to a mental hospital for 10 days for protesting in public that the government uses nanotechnology, satelites, NSA world wide spying. I was forcefully injected with vaccines & behavior medicines in my arm, forcefully made to follow a plan for ten days of taking pyschiatrix pills or I would not be released. I was also forces to eat MEAT, because I was "jailed" in a mental hospital(i am vegetarian) & I was falsely diagnosed as Bipolar in the end of it all because this criminal countrys system just had to put me their for any reason. They also sent me a bill , inwhich I had to sign papers so that I donot pay. It is a huge Fraud. criminal, faulty, pathetic, and a huge lie. You see how goverment covers up truth? they just jail us , use pyschiatry fraud & forcefully send us to mental hospitals. I will say it again, NANOTECHNOLOGY,SATELITES, CLASSIFIED TECH IN PHONES & SMART TVS, NSA WORLD WIDE SPYING!! Talk about freedom of speech, I was handcuffed & sent to a mental hospital.

[@SwissMappin]

@@animalkindness the truth is now schizophrenia

[@Kutale]

@@animalkindness Yea its sickening how they say "we want to help you" while doing most terrible harm imaginable. Its really evil social coercion.

[@_frangipani_]

Yes, and as victims we should get reparations

[@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю]

Psychiatry is an absolute crime! Crime in essence, according to tasks that it is intended to solve. Not a violation of psychiatric rules is a crime. Enforcing psychiatric rules is a crime.

[@edenwylie8917]

i cracked it. it's psychopaths. their condition is genetic and evolved around exploiting empathy through language. the estimate of 1% might as well have been pulled out of a hat as they can not be studied. there could be as many as 5% of them. they collect in positions of power as they outcompete others and it is clear to me that psychiatry is a field that is saturated with psychopaths. they can identify each other. there is only one conspiracy that matters and it is both ancient and global.

[@KaylaMarie-ox8le]

@@edenwylie8917many psychiatrists will react in the way narcissistic injury is described. They react like this if you question , or contradict them. The poor insight label is one of their methods, along with misquoting people in notes. They often life completely. Even openly at times, to get certain results like forced admission to psych ward.

[@edenwylie8917]

@@KaylaMarie-ox8le i have noticed the mistakes in note-taking, it does happen an alarming amount. if they are not sure you have said something, they shouldn't put it on your medical record. i do agree to the rest on whole, although there are degrees and exceptions. their job is to define what thinking can be considered illness and - with backing from the state and the biggest lobby on Earth - exert control over the lives and minds of the diagnosed, so it is hardly surprising that it attracts people with inflated egos and god complexes. also their training makes them ignore any contradiction that doesn't come from another psychiatrist, so in their minds they are almost never wrong. it's a dangerous dynamic. if i ever end up in a psych institution again my primary goal will be to discretely graffiti "The doctor is lacking insight into their own condition" anywhere i can and as permanently as possible.

[@lordrobert12]

Dr Thomas Szasz is my personal hero!! May he in Rest In Peace!!

[@johnbostrom3923]

What would Dr. Szasz say about a person planning to burn down a building because she believes it is infested with demons. The person has a history of recurrent fire-setting. Should we protect her freedom to set fires or protect her from herself, and offer her effective treatment.

[@lordrobert12]

@@johnbostrom3923 That’s a good question John!! I have not read everything he wrote but self responsibility was one of main tenants of his philosophy! For example, if a person wanted to commit suicide and his or her actions put others in danger than he felt that the person committing suicide should be held accountable legally if he lived. He would likely advocate for a very long prison sentence for the person who committed acts of arson. What do you think?

[@johnbostrom3923]

@@lordrobert12 Jules Masserman was one of my teachers at Illinois State Psychiatric Institute, so I feel I know something about the way he thought. Yes, he would want a person held accountable for endangering or harming others; however, he would not want that accountability to be in any way unjustly harsh. In general I would say this man, Dr. Masserman, was one of the smartest and wisest persons I ever met.

[@lordrobert12]

@@johnbostrom3923 No, you misunderstood me!! Sorry!! How do you feel Dr Szasz would have answered your earlier question? I do like the fact that this was a rather civilized debate.

[@amysantos355]

You do know he is a rapist right?

[@Gettingitreal]

Masserman employs one of the oldest tricks of influencing, which in this case evades taking Dr. S’s very clear axioms of consent and freedom... He agrees with him by reiterating social nature of disorders. Then circles around basic things that we all agree on and continues to evade the facts of involuntary confinement

[@pmfg875]

He uses quite a few negative tactics, mentioning “Jeremiah and the sinning Israelites”, and insinuates that epilepsy is a psychiatric “fugue” while explaining his points like he’s addressing children. Dude is beyond annoying!

[@RobertWBates-hw5ej]

Amazing how media today cannot deal with the significant social issues like this in an intelligent way. Imagenine a similar panel today discussing issues of the cause of homelessness and its relationship to mental illness.

[@marywilliams9858]

There are lots of psychotic people on the streets in Ottawa. Ontarionhas a stupid law that says mentally ill people cannot be forced to take medication for their disorders.

[@Steve_1999]

This is the type of stuff I watch at 1am... I'll probably end up involuntarily hospitalized too. lol

[@sandi21515]

Yes, after midnight, the world becomes a darker place and we end up here ☠☠

[@Badashia24]

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[@Badashia24]

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[@Badashia24]

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[@Badashia24]

Aa

[@flxmkr]

Jules Masserman seems to show a couple signs of Fragile-X syndrome: his ears (which is a classic phenotypical sign of Fragile-X …even though all these men have large ears), and his head movement, that resembles the beginning stage of Parkinson’s; which is a condition found in Fragile-X associated disorder seen in Fragile-X premutation (carrier), called FXTAS (Fragile X Tremor & Ataxia Syndrome). Males and females with Fragile-X premutation can show signs of FXTAS, but females are supposedly less symptomatic, due to the healthy X chromosome that masks the symptoms. I am aware that ears continue to grow throughout life, which may explain why they all appear to have Fragile-X ears.

[@3aeren]

There is No way he had fragile x syndrome... lol

[@flxmkr]

@@3aeren There’s no way of knowing for sure unless they take the test. Not everyone with Fragile-X full mutation or premutation shows all the signs and symptoms…including IQ.

[@psypolitics]

where is the second half of the debate published ?

[@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю]

Why of objectionable person need to destroy by "treatment"? If the whole problem is how to get rid of the disturbing person, there may be other options. For example can simply kill of unwanted person. Dead, he is guaranteed not to bother anyone. Why does this option not suit the haters of "psychos"? If a person not be allowed to live as his soul requires, then why not leave the opportunity to die? If he himself prefers death to “treatment,” why should he be deprived of even such extreme salvation ?!

[@waffleandsocks]

how do you think this will happen? we are in 2021 and the mental health crisis is at an ultimate high. Any hospital that forces you to stay and take medicine should be abolished and the patients should be able to decide what they want.

[@ElizabethRichter-o6u]

@@waffleandsocksmental health crisis? You mean the one that mental health professionals fabricated so they could get more business?

[@santacious7045]

Well Dr. Szasz and his ilk got their way. The mentally ill who’ve populated our streets and prisons since deinstitutionalization owe him a debt of gratitude! Well done Dr. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@aubrychendoraleighton3515]

You can thank Ronald Reagan when he was governor for that.

[@ElizabethRichter-o6u]

No. What happened was a broken promise. Hospitals were supposed to be replaced with community centers. The government reneged on its promise and so people ended up on the street. The billions of dollars saved by shutting down the hospitals was shifted to other areas instead. Still many millions of people who were or could have been warehoused in state hospitals are today living productive lives because of deinstitutionalization. People don’t talk about this because hospitals are really profitable and delegate considerable power to the mental health system to the detriment of patients.

[@ElizabethRichter-o6u]

The community centers were supposed to by voluntary by the way and preventative. I don’t know why anyone would think otherwise.

[@paulthomas963]

Excuse me what? These involuntary holds are being used more than ever.

[@ElizabethRichter-o6u]

@@paulthomas963 I am talking Community Centers where people could go to receive voluntary treatment in the community while living in their own homes. This is what the government promised but did not provide. What you are talking about where patients receive involuntary treatment in the community is a much much later development because community based voluntary treatment never materialized. I do think the Clubhouse Model is an example of what we advocates hoped for but they remain underfunded and limited.

[@nomad9338]

Fascinating debate, thank you for posting.

[@goertzpsychiatry9340]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXbJmp-Oi8R1rrM

[@melaniegerard2195]

It should be abolished. Quit stripping good men and women of their human rights

[@pmfg875]

Have a look at the film, “The Ruling Class” with Peter O Toole

[@ondrey95]

This is deep. Hard to swivel through different ideas regardless as to how you piece it together.

[@northvilletunnels]

No but before it happens the person being committed should have solid legal representation.

[@edenwylie8917]

@Mira Image i cracked it. it's psychopaths. their condition is genetic and evolved around exploiting empathy through language. the estimate of 1% might as well have been pulled out of a hat as they can not be studied. there could be as many as 5% of them. they collect in positions of power as they outcompete others and it is clear to me that psychiatry is a field that is saturated with psychopaths. they can identify each other. there is only one conspiracy that matters and it is both ancient and global.

[@edenwylie8917]

@Mira Image they are literally controlling the human consciousness through money. they money has always been in the psychopaths' hands and they have bred together to form pure lines of psychopathy. the central banks of every western country are all owned by the same few people. money is the instrument of manufactured compromise. people are conditioned to think they need it and are thus enslaved to a system that favours psychopaths in pursuit of it. i'm so glad we found each other

[@edenwylie8917]

Mira Image when i realized this properly for the first time, it blew my mind i frantically posted about it and sent emails to people, then a car stopped right outside my window, in the middle of nowhere, and then blasted grinding electronic music. my mind was launched into fight or flight mode, i knew in that moment truly what fear was, i was convinced that they were letting me know the hunt was on, that i would be taken underground. i packed a bag and ran out the house but didn't make it far before being detained and terrified in a jail cell, before being moved halfway across the country to a hospital in the middle of nowhere Norfolk where i met people who would terrify me to my core. making me think that whether it was here or somewhere else, someday i would be tortured to death. as soon as i figured out the psychopaths they came out of the woodwork to taunt me, letting me know they could get away with anything and i didn't stand a chance. if it weren't for the butterflies i met in my experience, the quiet ones who understood, i might not have survived it.

[@freedkristen]

EXACTLY!!!

[@freedkristen]

Likewise for involuntarily hospitalization (as well as for more lengthy commitment).

[@sizzla123]

Amazing discussion.

[@Nothingtoya]

One of the worst things we ever did. We should have improved the system instead of demolishing it.

[@combos7]

it was never abolished clown

[@SandfordSmythe]

You have to see a mother burst in tears during a hearing when her sneering son is being sent back to her.

[@markeccles3465]

17:10 The doctor has compassion for his angry patient. Who assigned you the patient? People are not responsible for their actions? Is everyone your patient?

[@katrinaisalwayscorrect]

They already closed all the in patient hospitals and now won't keep them for more that a week or so if they are trying to hurt themselves and others. I have a sister with schizophrenia and I have taken her to the er about 30 times because no one will actually take her and help her. She is on Illinois one of the worst states for mental health. They don't care about these people, they hate then and want them to od on the street

[@RaptorFromWeegee]

You raise a very good point. Much of Szasz's sentiment has been put into practice with state hospital closures and wt community based care, but look at what we got now in 2023. How's that working out for us? I don't agree that Katrina is always correct but in this instance, I think she is.

[@KaylaMarie-ox8le]

There’s lots of inpatient hospitals left. In fact Buzzfeed has uncovered multiple hospitals from an international chain that commit insurance fraud to keep people their who aren’t a danger to themselves or others.

[@oldmanjoeofficial1594]

she needs to start helping herself - no one can help u in this life. if i was u i would start getting her involved in harsh reality and help of self - detoxing and understanding that mental illness is in fact an illusion (read thomas szasz the myth of mental illness) - Currently m going up against the entire Mental Health Cult with my new book soon to be released

[@MicheleBohmke]

And now we have people raving and out of control on the streets of the US. Thanks Reagan!

[@paulthomas963]

Do you hear what you're saying? You want sick people to be enslaved? Maybe there's a third way that doesn't abuse humanity and remove human rights???

[@RaptorFromWeegee]

Love this classic view of 1969 TV talk show gimacs. Like starting out with the lighting dimmed in the studio, then bringing up the lights. Love the announcers game show host voice when introducing the contestants. Really takes me back. The civil tone and rhetorical style also contrasts strikingly with todays cocophony that passes for civil discourse in 2023. I think no one at the time could have guessed where the trends of 1969 would eventually take us. The grownups of 1969 must be turning in their graves at the spectacle of their grand-daughters, blue haired radical feminists, screaming in shrill strident tones at the "gender binary"

[@oldmanjoeofficial1594]

perfectly said

[@carolburmeister3044]

Masserman talking about behavioural norms in society was accused of drugging and sexually assultng patients. He settled out of court and signed consent to give up he's practice.

[@justthefacts5504]

quacks. deplorable. the u.s. medical system is barbaric.

[@connectingupthedots]

Ruined my dad's life...

[@ЛеонидДавыдов-ъ8с]

New York mayor is accused of harassment. To one "victim" he once said something which can be understood as ... To another once he forcibly kissing. Well, how to forgive this! And now the blind Themis has already begun to move. Of mayor already yank. And so, that he makes excuses. And this of mayor! What can we say about less ranked citizens.

[@ЛеонидДавыдов-ъ8с]

At the same time, psychiatric"doctors" with extremely harmful means, electric current suppress the will, destroy aperson's individuality. Destroys ability, to concentrate, memory loss. Theydestroy those people who already endure violence, bullying and humiliation. Theydestroy the hopes of cruelly offended people. Instead of punishing theperpetrators, victims are dealt with. These drugs, or rather terrible poisons,disrupt the body's work. They invade the most subtle, intimate substances. Sterilize,uproot the foundations of a human being. Even children are not spared! And allthis does not meet with any condemnation !! This is a clear demonstration of what kind of world we live in. What isthe real value of human rights and dignity.

[@BenjaminWilson_Model]

Your use of the English language is remarkable and quite interesting. I'm assuming that it is not your first language due to your screen/KZbin name and choice of words. But I must say I agree completely with your line of thinking & have for quite sometime. Truth be told there are now places in Europe, Sweden or Switzerland I think (not exactly sure how vast it extends or speed of growth). But according to the accounts I've heard about it's as easy as walking in with identification and signing a form. I know it sounds crazy but it makes perfect sense to me. Trouble is making it more accessible and if a "patient" chooses this as a alternative to being poisoned and intoxicated or sedated in order to control their undesirable behavior... How do we get them their without a bunch of fuss from those that do not understand.

[@blackswan1983]

For everyone happy about deinstitutionalization, look into the percentage of mentally ill prisoners. They didn't go away, they still got locked up.

[@KaylaMarie-ox8le]

Many are still institutionalized today. There’s many locked up today in psych wards. There’s leaked proof of them not only committing insurance fraud, by locking up. There’s much leaked footage of them abusing vulnerable people from various groups.

[@nicmart]

Szasz opposed de institutionalization and supported providing housing for people who had been committed.

[@markae0]

How do you distinguish the sane criminal from the insane criminal? You are arguing who gets to jail them. Imagine yourself (falsely) accused of being insane, how do you get out? How do you prove you are sane? You can not.

[@ElizabethRichter-o6u]

People in jail have more rights than people in psychiatric hospitals so they are probably better off.

[@paulthomas963]

They were locked up before. The "hospitals" were worse than the prisons. You kids have no clue.

[@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю]

Achieve something can only together. Of loners none not hear. Even if they say the most important and right things in the world. The most suitable way to conduct joint actions is to send appeals to deputies. There are several reasons for this. 1. Deputies are elected by all citizens. And victims of psychiatric atrocity including. And so they are dependent on us. No other government agencies, doctors, lawyers, judges, prosecutors, ministers ... from citizens they independents. 2. They, deputies issue laws. According to these laws, all state coercion is carried out. Including psychiatric coercion. 3. As lawmakers, they have the right to force judges to comply with laws, but not what the judge will wish. Therefore, it is necessary to turn to the deputies, legislators, as own elect. We must demand from them the protection of us by force of law.

[@GenesisAdame1]

I don't believe it should abolished but I do feel like if a patient has a psychologist/counselor that they have been seeing for more than 6 months and getting treatment from, should have a say. I believe a psychologist/counselor should have the authority to appeal an order of custody. Like I said, only if they've been seeing them for more than 6 months.

[@carolburmeister3044]

Much of today's teachings in psychiatry are based on opinions not science. Under no circumstances should anybody b forced into treatment based on opinions

[@gabe-po9yi]

Because it was so easy to commit people decades ago, we swung the other way, but did so too far. So many people now have loved ones who are a danger to themselves or others and nothing can be done, other than possibly an involuntary mental evaluation. Most of the mass shootings that have occurred in the last decade were perpetrated by mentally ill people, because of their mental illness. Family members were worried, friends, schools, classmates, people who had seen threats of violence they’d posted, the perp was having hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, but not a damn thing could be done about it. I think if there is ample evidence that an individual is at great risk of committing violence, the law should allow that person to be hospitalized involuntarily. Now, they go to prison after the crime is committed. Many end up being shot by police when their delusions and hallucinations get out of control or they’re suicidal and decide to have the police end their lives.

[@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю]

The current "civilized" means are a hundred times worse, more harmful than bind. All people are a danger to someone. Because each person is a subject of desires, feelings, offenses ... And no one will remain indifferent, if about him extinguish cigarette. Anyone angry and wants to hit. So it will already be dangerous. And those "dangerous psychos" also have reasons why they are dangerous. The problem, however, is that their assessments of their own actions and intentions nobody Interested in. For them, one reason is left - illness. Psychiatrists decide for them what happens to them and for what reasons. That they have paranoia, delusions and hallucinations. What is better for them, what is worse. The "sick" themselves are deprived of any autonomy. With such assessments, can turn a person into a sausage and name this help. Of worst example of the destruction of human rights is beyond imagining! Why should use of medicine, to protect someone from violence? Is this the purpose of a doctor to protect someone from a dangerous patient? The doctor's task is the opposite.- Provide assistance to the patient. To help him. But not to someone help get rid of the anxiety caused to the sick. And only the law enforcement system can fight the danger. This is exclusively her prerogative. And to do it in accordance with legal criteria. Not medical. With regard to the mass shootings, there is a lot of information that the reason was the psychiatric "drugs" used against these people.

[@barbaramatthews4735]

We never fulfilled the community care part of mental health. People wait way to long to access treatment. Getting actual help is a long and arduous process. There aren't enough beds in the few hospitals that remain. It's a broken system. I've been voluntarily hospitalized for severe depression but gaining access was difficult. I think it's all about money. The bottom line is who's going to pay for it. I live in the US where too many people die from treatable and preventable disease and illness due to the outrageous cost of medical care. Too often the "wait and see" process ends poorly. Mental health is the same as medical health. Unfortunately, it's not treated the same. Jails and prisons are defacto mental hospitals. I guess letting someone become so severe that law enforcement and corrections become involved is more "humane." Than to spend a few weeks in a hospital with trained medical staff. We have in effect criminalized mental illness. Yeah, that's better. (obviously, sarcasm.)

[@gabe-po9yi]

Barbara Matthews Our govt (I’m US, too) certainly has plenty of money where it wants to spend it, doesn’t it? As you said, mental health is not enough of a priority to be funded well. Ronald Reagan closed all but a few inpatient MH facilities under the guise of abuses, which there were of course, but the true reason was because the govt no longer wanted to spend the amount of money it took to run them, meaning they wanted to spend the money saved on other things. If it was truly due to abuses, laws and procedures could’ve been enacted. We do it for other things, often in the blink of an eye. Community-based care is all well and good, but we still need a fair number of hospitals, because oftentimes outpatient treatment just isn’t sufficient. My state, with a population of 21.5 million, has a whopping two govt-funded inpatient MH facilities. But, hey, like you said why bother when we have prisons...

[@j.h.miretskay3430]

Most of the mass shootings were perpetrated by aggrieved persons or persons with a political agenda. Violent actions stemming directly from mental illness constitute less than 5% of all violence. Check the data, before you embarrass yourself and say nonsense.

[@kimlec3592]

@@j.h.miretskay3430 well said. Thank you.

[@Amanda-vi3di]

Too bad these Doctors cant walk San Francisco & Los Angels in the year 2023. I’m sure views would be different

[@markae0]

No, it is called freedom. You have the freedom to be wrong as well as right, the drug addicts have made the wrong choice and continue to make the wrong choice. In theory, you could prove the addicts brains are defective in a MRI scan , but then do you have the right to force treatment on them? Who is going to pay for it? No one. Some one with cancer is not forced to get treatment for their cancer. Who pays for it as well?

[@shimmer8289]

Well the guy against involuntary commitment his viewpoint obviously was embraced and now we have sadly police officers losing their lives, school children, families and of course the patient losing their lives because they refuse treatment for their illness. We lost coz of his liberal views.

[@Wpoiyttvhfth]

This isn’t psychology

[@sigsin1]

A lot of violence is caused by problems with the brain and is a medical condition. Psychiatry will not help.

[@AwesomeSaucePictures]

0:14 and I'm an alcoholic

[@stevenhulbert7540]

These are all liberals who were educated under Eugenix. To say that involuntary commital of patients should "never" be used is quite generic. Then he goes on to say "except in circumstances where violence...." so he's contradicting himself. Dr. Szasz at that time seemed to state that only those who are violent with mental illness would be under the jurisdiction of LE and subject to it's laws and not under Medical requirements, there were no HIPPA laws then.

[@oldmanjoeofficial1594]

when it is violence it's a crime for criminal justice - not psychiatry. If u deal in logic ull see that Szasz is the only logical one there. psychiatrists have been put on a pedestal and caused extreme pain and chaos in society, pushing for the freedom of criminals and taking advantage of and unfairly punishing undeserving innocents.

[@SOULRELIEF22]

St John 3:16! 💓 JESUS is coming again SOON! HALLELUJAH!

[@travissmith5837]

jesus is late what is jesus if jesus was real why did slavery exist and why you got a govt you follow with a ruler it say you cant serve two master or love one and hate the other how can you serve two masters

[@fallon7616]

Operation Mockingbird 🤷

[@robertburatt5981]

I thought the bald psychiatrist was the committed patient!!!

[@Emesash]

I like this clever peoples

[@carolburmeister3044]

Only one clever is dr Thomas Szasz.

[@Lawh]

I feel like the psychiatrist on the right is making his point as if we lived in a perfect world, and the one on the left states that it would be nice if we did, but we have to take each case individual my, do our best to reason and measure effects on the individual and societal level, and then work to Improve the cobditions of everyone, so that we can reach a point where we know much more answers than today. So basically, let's do this because it's simple and it is scary to think vs Let's do this because we have to be able to consider complex matters in the frame at which they deserve to be viewed, and come up with solutions that are better for everyone involved.

[@paulkramer9666]

Involuntary commitment for drug addicts is what's needed today.

[@combos7]

will that prevent them from doing drugs or harming people? most drug addicts do their own thing an try to stay out of peoples way. forcing them to go somewhere because they do something you dont is crazy if there not hurting anybody why try an fix them with no definite way of doing so nobody is perfect

[@taylornovia8911]

Both men make strong arguments. Szasz' libertarianism breaks down for me at suicide. As a Christian, "your body is not your own" means just that. Though an individual doesn't belong to the state, if you're a Christian, you belong to God. While you have free-will, I don't believe a Christian is within his rights to take his own life. That'd be an offense to God to whom he belongs.

[@nicmart]

Many a psychiatrist considers devotion to religion sign of mental illness.

[@oldmanjoeofficial1594]

please remember - the god delusion is in fact the biggest mental issue only followed by faith based ppl - there's no logic there and so u must drop that delusion if u want to begin to understand how we can progress society.

[@ray495903314]

So the answer is lock people up because it's an affront to god to kill yourself? They are not a danger to anyone else, they are not causing harm to anyone else (emotional harm wouldn't count as we don't lock people up for offending others at least not yet) If Szasz' libertarianism breaks down for you at suicide Your not really a libertarian to begin with, all rights are an extension of one basic principle. You own yourself, you have the right to determine what happens to yourself, your christian ideals cannot be squared away with libertarianism at all if you force them onto other people. To a libertarian forcing your good intentions on others is an act of evil.

[@joser1217]

Look at his forehead..movies all day

[@barbaramatthews4735]

I know that I have been helped by psychiatrists. I once was deeply depressed to the point I attempted suicide. I needed help because I was unable to help myself. If I had not been treated, I may have not been here today. I really didn't want to die, rather I wanted the pain to stop. I was dangerous to myself. I needed medical treatment. I was sick and not a criminal. I'm not a criminal now. I've never harmed another person. I still struggle with depression and anxiety. I'm still in treatment and I'm doing better. I'm not perfect and I know that sometimes I need extra help. Suicide should be prevented. It is permanent solution to a temporary situation. If someone dies he/she cannot change his/her mind later. People can have distorted thinking. With caring and compassionate treatment people can work through it.

[@jintyc9133]

Barbara Matthews me too xxxx

[@edenwylie8917]

i cracked it. it's psychopaths. their condition is genetic and evolved around exploiting empathy through language. the estimate of 1% might as well have been pulled out of a hat as they can not be studied. there could be as many as 5% of them. they collect in positions of power as they outcompete others and it is clear to me that psychiatry is a field that is saturated with psychopaths. they can identify each other. there is only one conspiracy that matters and it is both ancient and global.

[@j.h.miretskay3430]

Just because someone was helpful for you and your specific situation, it doesn’t mean that others found similar interventions helpful or beneficial. This body is my body - and I don’t want any damn quacks detaining me and telling me how to live my life. Suicide is a personal choice and a matter of a person’s right to bodily autonomy. If I want to end my life, I don’t want any busybodies “saving me from myself”.

[@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю]

@@j.h.miretskay3430 All justifications for compulsory psychiatry are based on the probable danger of the "sick". The very statement of the question sounds incredibly cynical and absurd. The position of doctors is to help, assist patients. But preventing of danger outgoing from the sick is something els entirely. Suppression of a person's will, depriving him of his own capabilities, causing grievous injuries, "neutralization" ... Such "help" is the purposeful destruction of a person. This is the job of the executioners. Why make executioners out of doctors ?! Are there not enough executioners?! On the other hand, why destroy an unwanted person with "treatment"? If the whole problem is how to get rid of the bothering person, there may be other options. Not only "cure" For example, an unwanted person can simply be killed. Dead, he is guaranteed not to disturb anyone. How does this option not suit the haters of "psychos"? If a person is not allowed to live as his soul requires, then why not leave the opportunity to die? If he himself prefers death to “cure”, then why should he be deprived of even such extreme salvation ?!

[@j.h.miretskay3430]

@@АлександрСмоляков-о6ю -- I couldn't agree with this more. Questions of what makes life worthy of living is strictly a matter in the domain religion or philosophy, not medicine. The job of doctors to to diagnose and treat disease, not to impose their beliefs and standards of morality upon another. Furthermore, it is interesting how psychiatry is the only field where involuntary treatment is routinely imposed. Even with highly contagious and communicable diseases that present a public health threat, the government can -- at most -- impose quarantines upon the infectious individuals; it cannot forcibly treat the infectious individuals against their will.

[@LIVEANDDIRECT547]

YOU CANT ABOLISH IT.. SOME PEOPLE TOTALLY LOSE IT THEY CAN BE DANGEROUS AND THE POLICE CANT HELP THEM MOST OF THEM GET SHOT BY POLICE

[@KaylaMarie-ox8le]

People getting shot by police is a separate issue. Most labeled mentally ill don’t get shot by the police. Those that die in mental facilities from drugs reactions/ restraint is far more common.