Tesla Home Charging Options

[@iowatesla]

If you are ready to order your new Tesla, don't miss out on your free referral credits by using my referral link - www.tesla.com/referral/jim58610

[@eliasreyes3099]

In the video you said your set up had a 60amp circuit which would get you the maximum but then later when you plugged it in you said it was 48amps. Where did the additional 12amps go? Why could you not take advantage of the full 60 in your set up?

[@iowatesla]

The short answer is that you aren’t allowed to pull the full amount for safety reasons. You typically size the to use 80% of the load and that’s 48 Amps.

[@richard1493]

The placement of your home wall charger is genius.

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. It worked out really well and cost me about $100 more to put it there. So glad I did since I just placed an order for a second Model Y that will be parked right next to it and we plan to share the charger. Thanks for watching!

[@emmettturner9452]

@@iowatesla it will also reach outside the garage for guest charging. It’s ideal!

[@freegameradiopodcast9379]

How much did you wall charger installation cost?

[@iowatesla]

For me it was $500. However, that can vary greatly based on how far your electrical box is and if you have capacity. Mine was in the basement on the garage side so I was pretty lucky.

[@myamionfire6393]

It’s cool but I like to park in reverse.

[@MrBrooklyn4lyfe]

Im picking up my 2023 long range model Y in the morning. That you for this informative video.

[@molaz1583]

Great video! Best video yet on home charging options! Simple and straight to the point!

[@iowatesla]

Thanks! I appreciate it.

[@JoeyBozify]

Best explanation on KZbin that I’ve seen so far ! Helped a lot ! Thank you!

[@tmc1473]

You're killing me with this 110, 230v stuff. Nominal voltage is 120, 240......and 14-50🤪

[@CaliJatt0809]

And it was at this point, that this man became a living legend.

[@HHIto]

Excellent! I'm a retired senior in LA, my main concerns are (1) best EV I can buy (I'm 70) & (2) I'd buy the Tesla Home Charging Unit, (3) affordability...

[@bryanchannell7715]

From bradenton Florida thanks bro just got the model 3 2019 and drove it home from texas

[@iowatesla]

Awesome! Enjoy the ride! Thanks for watching!

[@willallen7004]

Apollo Beach here. Hello neighbor.

[@Love2Hoop]

Recently got a tesla for a company car and we ran into some initial issues with installing the Tesla charger into my garage. This video helped a great deal! Thanks Tesla Guy

[@iowatesla]

Excellent! Glad you found it helpful!

[@Basnican]

Thank you! very useful information. Im picking up my Model 3 on Saturday

[@davidbenefiel9289]

I congratulate you on a clear, brief explanation of charging options.

[@wdbldr67]

If u get the wall adapter for 20 amp outlets noted by one horizontal prong for 110 volt you can pull around 6 mph of range.

[@jkcurti]

I use a 10-50 (Welder outlet) to Tesla cord adapter and charge at 30Mph 7.7kWh. Works great. A JuiceBox can Charge at 11.5kWh and is the fastest Home charger I've seen for EVs

[@MrRba122]

How fast are we talking about?

[@jkcurti]

@@MrRba122 At 242V 32A (7,744W due to 32 Amp soft limit set by Tesla on-board charger), it is 30.25 miles per hour. 8h 40m from 10% charge to 90%. Easy overnight recharge. You can get a very close mph rate by multiplying your Watts by .00390625 fo Model Y. That factor is varies by model and charge board version. JuiceBox will give you 11.5kWh charge if you want faster. Tesla makes a 20kWh now.

[@a.joseph4233]

Great video...appreciate the diagrams/charts and simple explanation as i am very non-technical....now i understand so much more about my charging options

[@iowatesla]

I'm glad you found it helpful. So much about EV's are different. The terminology seems like a foreign language at times. I'm still no expert but I'm learning as quickly as I can and sharing what I learn as I go. Thanks for watching!

[@sliggy6834]

All models now come with 5-15 & 14-50 outlet or wall connector.

[@RS-xh4yk]

Best charging video on KZbin

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. It’s a bit old and I should probably update it. Info still applies.

[@globalgypsy4007]

Dang! Great analysis. There’s not much driving except on the weekends. I’m going to stick with my plan to visit charge stations and my 110v for now. Our island is so tiny, used for post office and grocery shopping.😀

[@iowatesla]

If you are going to drive less than 40 miles per day, a 110V outlet will likely be fine. Use a Supercharger for when you want to go further. Like you said, Hawaii is a small island compared to the continental US.

[@momsohard2298]

GREAT Charging for Dummies! this is just what I needed!!! TY!

[@robertblink7547]

For another Iowan interested in a Tesla, this video was superb.

[@iowatesla]

Thanks! I appreciate that. Thanks for watching!

[@apocalypticadventure1823]

I would probably go with the 2nd option. The 250 V. I think the 3rd one is unnecessary because its only 4 hour less. The 2nd option is cheaper than the 3rd one.

[@kslaks]

Thanks Jim, very clear and insightful. Best home charging demo video I've come across on here.

[@Anthony__420]

Just found this video after I messaged you on a previous video. My car had all the adapters in my kit. They stopped that after a while but I paid for long range premium trim too so that was standard. I also have homelink for some silly reason model Y owners it’s an option

[@iowatesla]

I wish I had homelink. I'm not willing to shell out the $300. I know that compared to a $60K car, $300 is nothing. If they had an option to purchase it at the time I bought it, I would have. I don't know. I don't have it more on principle. I'm fine pressing the button on the remote.

[@ptech88]

I wasted money on the tesla wall charger on have regretted ever since. I regular dryer plugs works just as well.

[@benjamind7290]

Good point about the rebate. I think a lot of utilities are offering something like this. I like keeping my mobile connector in the car too!

[@iowatesla]

Thanks! I definitely like the wall connector. Very convenient and fast charging.

[@mallikarjun8217]

This video is so so helpful. Very easy to understand 👏🏻👏🏻

[@dc8late]

Perfect explanation on home charging

[@keithharrington8715]

Many people watch car charge videos for tips and how to's. As an electrical guy, do plenty of research. Do I need a permit? Can the wires from the utility to my house carry that much power? You are essentially adding a second stove/cook top to run for about 10 hours a day. Your house should have been built to carry the electrical loads when built and the wires sized only for what was there at that time. You might need a second power connection to your utility (A second service) or a service up-grade just to charge at some rates. The NEC (national electric code), electric building code, may or may not apply to you. It has its own section for car hanging (electric vehicle service equipment) 625 that has many rules for just this hook-up. A big one is the maximum charger rating for circuit sizing. Yes, a 40 Amp charger cannot be reduced down in the charger to fit on a 30 Amp breaker. The NEC directs you to the 60 degree Celsius rating for wire sizes in almost all cases. Pick you wire size accordingly. Be careful out there. Consider hiring a pro as a consultant at least to get things correct the first time. Re-inspections by building 8nspectors can be expensive and so can the re-work.

[@stevenespinal5939]

Great video! Maybe discuss the length of the cord. Also mileage in the mountains and with air conditioner on. Thanks.

[@davidc2466]

good video. We haven't picked up the Tesla yet. Confused about the different plugs. Would be helpful if you showed what each plug looks like, including the car and the cable ends.

[@iowatesla]

Check out Tesla's site. They have very good pictures and diagrams of the various plugs. I was just at my parents and saw a plug I wasn't familiar with. I took a picture of it with my phone and was able to quickly match it with a plug from the diagram provided. Thanks for watching!

[@zendannyy]

Great video! Can you go over the differences in how your electric utility costs could differ depending on the options?

[@marilyntolentino3756]

Yes please, that's what I need also

[@suserman7775]

That question doesn't make sense. How much does it cost you in water to fill a bathtub quickly as opposed to filling it slowly? THE SAME. Now with some utilities and plans, the PRICE you pay for electricity varies by time of day. So if your time window to charge cheaply is short, then charging at a high rate may allow you to finish all or most of your charging within the low-price window. (also, some chargers can have more losses at different rates, but the difference is small) Just as a general answer, my utility charges 13 cents per kWh, and when you factor efficiency losses I'm probably paying about 15 cents. Since my car gets about 3 miles per kWh, and I drive 1000 miles per month, I need 333 kWh per month. So 333 x 0.15 = 50 dollars.

[@fortvalor]

Thanks get my performance 3 in 4 days can’t wait!!! One thing that seems to be untold is what is the best to charge it at to make the battery last the longest?!

[@amazinginformation2024]

Heyyo nice! How do you like it?

[@engineeringtheweirdguy2103]

Rule of thumb is the slower the better when it comes to battery health.

[@MaeveClarke-sb1yw]

Great videos! I'm in Iowa as well and am considering purchasing my first EV! I appreciate hearing about your experiences with your Tesla in Iowa. Stumbled on your first video and then found your channel. If we go with the Tesla, I will definitely subscribe! Thank you!

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. Feel free to subscribe now. :)

[@ponolovefarms3926]

Great video. I don’t own a tesla but thinking about putting a wall charger in an air bnb property I’m building out.

[@olivia_lam]

Thank you so much for your super helpful descriptive video!!!

[@iowatesla]

Glad it was helpful!

[@truth7416]

Perfectly communicated information! Thanks!

[@wrldnel5200]

Thank you so so much for this vid I highly appreciate it I’m buying a Tesla soon and needed to know about charging. I live in NJ I hope I can find a solution to my charging.

[@engineeringtheweirdguy2103]

As a Tesla owner for the last 3 years I had the same concern buying my Tesla. But it took around 6 months to realise it’s actually really easy to find a charge. Even longer commutes only need to charge from 60%-90% overnight. And the average person is at home not using their car for around 14 hours per night. I was surprised how many places there are to charge. For example I’ve been on fairly long trips where I’ve stayed at air BnB’s but they always seems to have an outdoor outlet I can sneak a charge from overnight for free. On one occasion I ran a extension cable out under the front door to charge the car. Keep in mind, you can charge in the rain and snow without issue.

[@sivunigunta]

Thank you - this was very helpful!

[@Anthony__420]

When I had my Chevy Volt I had a clipper creek charger and got about 3k rebate to install. The charger was about 500 bucks so I made money on that. My Tesla founders series wall charger is mounted like yours in between the two bay doors

[@iowatesla]

I'm glad I put it where I did. This allows me to park in either my 2nd or 3rd stall and charge it. I also don't have to back it in. For my driveway, that would have been a pain.

[@sidnickels]

Great video! Thanks for detailed information.

[@alymcdonalds]

Thank you for all you do

[@wayne-oo]

Great demo video

[@iowatesla]

Thanks for watching!

[@nelsoncopo7529]

Excellent video. Clear and precise.

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. Glad you found it helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@darricklee2532]

Thanks for the video It answered all of my questions 👍

[@iowatesla]

Excellent! Thanks for watching!

[@misosong]

awesome video! Thanks for putting this together :)

[@jeffhammer9447]

Thanks for the information - very helpful!

[@iowatesla]

Thanks!

[@MichaelThompson-mf3vn]

Thank you for this video. It was very helpful.

[@iowatesla]

Glad it was helpful!

[@steffiblackcoaching-lifean6722]

Thank you so much - very clear and simple which is what I wanted!

[@iowatesla]

I'm glad it helped!

[@malcolmpoe5484]

Solid info. Exactly what I was looking to hear / understand

[@iowatesla]

Excellent. Glad you found it helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@sick_ps3936]

Me too, made me completely remove the thought of owning a tesla. Very cool car bur crazy to have to plug it in for 7 hours at the fastest available rate.

[@iowatesla]

It’s really not an issue unless you drive 24/7 and use the full battery. Full charge while you sleep and wake up to a full battery everyday.

[@DomainObject]

Fantastic video. Thank you!! 🚗⚡️

[@iowatesla]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jazzs2965]

Very useful information 👍🏼

[@moonlighthunter6250]

Hi Iowa Tesla Guy 🔥🙏 your videos are awesome

[@iowatesla]

Glad you like them!

[@Riiito]

Tbh this video helped me a ton although tesla is still yet to have a branch in saudi arabia but this gives me an idea when they finally decide to open dealership in saudi

[@iowatesla]

Hope you get the option soon. Thanks for watching!

[@jrpeet]

Helpful ... thanks

[@gsriram7]

Thank you for the explanation!!

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. I appreciate it. Thanks for watching!

[@Waliocoolioflo]

Great video definitely got some great info and incite. I'm just curious about the cost of the home connector and what's your average monthly bill looking like. I think that's one of the most important questions people have on the outside looking in.

[@iowatesla]

Your location will drive different costs. For me, the Wall Connector plus install was $1000. I got a $500 rebate from my power company. Also got a $300 Federal tax credit when I filed my taxes. Total overall cost was $200. As for cost, I pay $0.13 per kWh. In 8000 miles over 7 months, I consumed 2500 kWh of energy. That works out to about $325 in total cost - or about $45 per month for me.

[@HardxCorpsxKali]

@@iowatesla this was perfect. Thanks for the incite and the detailed explanation. I am trying to wait as long as possible before I buy my Tesla because one of the most important features to me is the self driving feature which isn’t even close to being released so I am growing more and more impatient by the day and I’m thinking I just need to bite down and buy it now just so I can enjoy the car and all of its features. I personally would find great use out of the regular wall charger as I own my own business where I do landscaping so I just drive my truck around all day for work with my tools and mulch so it would never need to be charged quickly. However I would probably still install the 3rd option you listed as it would be great if the wife needed to use it often.

[@bobsaget3044]

@@iowatesla I need someone to install a setup for me but I’ve been quoted some insane prices $2400 approximately I feel as though I’m being taken advantage of from major companies, I wish there was someone that could come and install it for $1000 or less and be licensed bonded and insured I know that’s a reach though!

[@iowatesla]

@@bobsaget3044 It really depends on your situation. How far away is the panel to where you want your plug? How easy is it to route the wires? Do they need to go through completed wall? For me, the panel was on a basement wall that was adjacent to the garage. I also had a open PVC tube to take wires from the basement to may attic. The total run for me was about 40'. My expense was $500 but I think my setup was about best case. You location will also affect price.

[@ChristianAlino]

Great video just purchased both my sons model s plaid tesla's and am going to need to hire some electricians to help install the equipment.

[@iowatesla]

Wow! If you have some extra cash laying around, I would gladly accept a Model S Plaid as well. :) Thanks for watching!

[@Francis.Rivers]

Awesome video. Very straightforward.. 👍🏾👍🏾

[@iowatesla]

Glad it was helpful!

[@rookiebird9382]

awesome explanation

[@likearock2428]

Well done, thank you.

[@robertclinton3259]

Thanks for this.

[@Pezhman101]

Very educational thank you

[@joeyfranchini7499]

Very helpful! Thank you!

[@iowatesla]

Glad it was helpful!

[@davidrcook8126]

Great info...Thank you.

[@一万小时]

If you want the convenience of having separate chargers in your Tesla and in your home, it seems the better option is to just buy a second mobile charger. It's hard to justify the extra cost of a wall connector, especially if you already have a 240v outlet in the garage.

[@iowatesla]

That would be the way to go if I didn’t have a local rebate. By getting the Wall Connector, I got a $500 rebate from my power company and $300 from a Federal Tax Credit. In the end, I get a Wall Connector for less money than another mobile connector.

[@L_B2892]

@@iowatesla Damn, You get more than enough rebate from your power company and and Federal Tax credit, hopefully these tax credits are refundable😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁

[@Mar-gv4eq]

This video was exactly what I needed! Thank you!

[@iowatesla]

Excellent. Thanks for watching!

[@aaronh7412]

Great video! The wife and I are in the market of getting a Tesla soon. Your videos are great for my research and questions I have. You said something about rebates for installing a charging station? I’m curious what power company is that? I to live in Iowa. Near Des Moines.

[@jci3060]

I use the home outlet charging only. I never drive more than a 150 miles per day

[@MarcoTrillion]

Nice!, thanks! 👍 😊

[@zag999zag]

Thank you very helpful

[@iowatesla]

Glad to hear it! Thanks for watching!

[@KTAC1]

Thanks for the info

[@iowatesla]

Glad you found it helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@kylenguyen5055]

My sister has the Nema14-50 mobil charger and she said that her charger gets hot and she gets a warning from the car occasionally while charging. She convinced me to get the Tesla wall charger instead. I don't currently have a Tesla yet, I'm looking to purchase one later this year. I'm installing solar and the tech will either put a Nema14-50 wall plug or install the Tesla charger if I have the charger ready. What is your thought on this? Great video and thank you!

[@deivisivanauskas3839]

Great video! Curious, how much did you pay for installation for the wall charger? And how did you find out about the rebates available? I live in IL and wonder if it offers similar rebates...

[@iowatesla]

I paid $500 for the install. However, that varies greatly based on your particular situation. As far as the rebate with the power company, I think I saw it on website or Facebook or something.

[@jmp622]

Iowa 😵‍💫!!

[@SaltAndVi]

Great video

[@dangrass]

Well done. Thanks.

[@iowatesla]

Appreciate it!

[@colinpovey2904]

One advantage of slower charging is it is easier on the battery, meaning it should make the battery last longer. Thank you for showing the other options. The NEMA 6-20 outlet is a good compromise for may people. It provides abotu 14 miles per hour, or in an 8 hour charging period, that's 112 miles. That more than covers the average person's daily driving. The advantage of that connector is that is uses common, reasonably priced 10 or 12 gauge wiring, which is easier and much less expensive to install than is the 6 gauge wiring needed for the 50 or 60 amp circuits.

[@iowatesla]

Glad you found the video helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@brianclark5906]

just came across your channel some really great information as I'm seriously considering in purchasing the Model Y. It would be my first electric car do you have any negatives for me to consider from your experience with Tesla vehicles? I live in Philadelphia region

[@iowatesla]

As long as you have a place to charge at home that meets your daily driving needs, I would say there are no downsides. It has the storage of an SUV, the cost to operate that is less expensive than a Prius and is faster than 90% of the cars on the road.

[@user-ze1cq6ui8m]

We have 240 volt AC in Oz. I guess we are just luckier?

[@yakxattack]

Amps is unit of measurement for Current, not Power. Just fyi…

[@frankcarter4998]

What he means to say is range receptacle. The dryer is only a 30.

[@RR-ur9no]

Very useful video

[@iowatesla]

Thank you and thanks for watching!

[@trungphung]

Thanks for reference code!

[@iowatesla]

No problem! Thanks for watching!

[@trungphung]

@@iowatesla my first model Y telsa will arrive today. Can't wait!!!

[@iowatesla]

Congrats! You will love it!

[@gtfreak32]

During the week I drive to work and back, and maybe to work out after. Not sure on miles but it’s prob 40 min drive time for the entire day. Then weekends maybe a little more if there is an occasion. Would I be able to stick with standard 110v or should I step up to the 14-50? Overnight the car would probably be plugged in for about 8-9 hours a night

[@engineeringtheweirdguy2103]

For suburban driving around 1 hour of driving equates to around 45 miles. For a Model 3 standard range, that’s around 9.5kWh. At 110V, and 15amps, that’s 1.6kW, which would take 6 hours to charge 9.5kWh. So you should be good. Over 8 hours you’d charge the equivalent of 12.5 kWh, which is around 60 miles of driving.

[@nursinggrad421]

Thanks buddy

[@iowatesla]

Thanks for watching!

[@sangindil]

I see you just push in one type of outlet than the other type. My question is, how do you take the outlet out of the adapter once you've plugged it in the adapter. I want to switch one outlet type with another.

[@lilwaynesbestfan420]

Can you add the link where you would find that connector for the 240 outlet ?

[@MinLee2]

Are there 3rd party versions of these plug ins? So for example - could I buy the Mobile Connector that isn't Tesla made?

[@RogerWilsonTodd]

If installing a new outlet dedicated to EV charging,, use NEMA 6-50.

[@iowatesla]

Agreed. I had my 60A service professionally installed. Thanks for watching!

[@lizantco]

Thank you for the helpful video, but I am confused. A 14-50 is an electric oven, not an electric dryer. A dryer would use 14-30, right? Just took delivery on my MY7 and I want to order the correct adapter

[@iowatesla]

What you have in your house might be different. Go take a picture of the plug you want to use and compare it to the large assortment of adapters that Tesla offers and pick the one that matches your plug.

[@ewicky]

Liz, every house is different, but yes, more commonly an electric clothes dryer is only on a 30A circuit, so it's a NEMA 14-30R. An electric range, which includes oven and cooktop, is typically on a 40 or 50A circuit, either of which would have a NEMA 14-50R. However, kitchens are typically further from the car than laundry. I think most EV owners could charge with a 30A circuit and have plenty of charging time left over, no problem.

[@Tun-Tun]

@@ewicky hello.. how about for example my situation. I live in a townhouse and the dryer is located on the second floor. What options do I have? I ordered my model 3LR and now I’m just thinking of cancelling and losing my $250 deposit. I saw other videos that state that charging at Tesla’s superchargers are expensive. Can anyone advised ?

[@ewicky]

@@Tun-Tun There are quite a few options. I'll start with the best: Hire an electrician to put in a dedicated charger. If you own the townhome, or if you can work with the owner, you may be able to have a dedicated charger or dedicated receptacle installed. Ideal locations would be in the garage (if you have one) or outdoors near the driveway. Ideal would be a Tesla charger, that way you can leave your mobile connector coiled up in the trunk. If you have neither a driveway nor a garage, some people are able to charge with street parking. You would need a receptacle installed on the side of the house, then an extension cord on the 240V side of the Tesla mobile connector. A 30A circuit, such as the NEMA 14-30R or NEMA 6-10R should be fine. If you will be using an extension cord, consider locking connectors instead. Not the best: You could run a 240V 30A extension cord out the window or through the house, down to your car. The cord would be thick and expensive, like a garden hose. While this solution may work "in a pinch," it is not ideal for daily use. If you are low-milage and only would need to charge 1 or 2 days per week, it might be okay. Also not the best: 120V charging using a ground-level outdoor receptacle. This is only practical if you charge every night and don't drive too much during the day. Other things to consider: Quick220, which can, in some cases, create 220V (aka 240V) from two circuits joined together. This can just-over double the charging speed. "Dryer Buddy Plus Auto": Allows you to semi-permanently wire your charger and your dryer to the same receptacle. The device stops the charging whenever the dryer is actually in use. Alternatives to at-home charging: If you commute to work daily, consider finding a charging station within walking distance of the office, or ask the office manager if they would consider installing a charger. Tesla Supercharging is also an option, but takes longer than filling gas in a gas car. Also, it isn't as low-cost as standard utility rates. Some of the savings of going away from an ICE car would be lost. Public charging probably shouldn't even be considered an option unless you live or work very near a good option. Some are free, while others are more expensive per mile than gas.

[@Tun-Tun]

@@ewicky hello thank you, truly appreciate your recommendations. Question to your suggestion of the 2nd paragraph. Why would this be a good option? Would that extension cable burn out or cause possible fire? I think I should just cancel the order and take the $250 lost. This seems like a headache and hiring an electrician sounds expensive.

[@JohnD0129]

I have the standard 110v mobile charger that I’m using at home. Once it hits my desired 90% charge is it ok to leave it plugged in ?

[@realfaux7333]

Informative.

[@iowatesla]

Thanks for watching!

[@daleravic]

30 miles on a 40 amp 230 volt gets 30 miles an hour thats not bad. Full charge in 10 hours.

[@iowatesla]

Yes. For most people, this would work fine.

[@SammieBlue123]

Dumb question, but would the electric costs be the same throughout? I.E. Slow charge/less Amps for longer time vs fast charge/more Amps for less time?

[@iowatesla]

There are minor differences in energy losses but the short answer is that the costs would be the same. Charging faster could be cheaper if you can take advantage of off peak pricing.

[@omichaelnato5388]

Thank you. So if that car is a model 3 why does it look like a hatchback ??

[@Matzes]

So weird how many different plugs you guys got. We pretty much just have 2 different ones in my country

[@iowatesla]

It's not the only thing that is strange with the USA. :) Thanks for watching.

[@igorm2434]

Very good,

[@iowatesla]

Thanks for watching!

[@AhmedRoshdy-rf8fy]

Hello I have tesla model 3 2019 longrange I have charger with tips 16 amp Then i buy tip with 32 amp but when using 32amp just charge at 16 amp and can not increase to 32 What can i do

[@phoenixinc.3354]

Literally only chose your video because your from iowa🤣 I'm from seymour

[@iowatesla]

Thanks. I hope you found value in it beside me being from Iowa. :) Thanks for watching!

[@marynollaig4124]

The best option is to install a 10 kw diesel direct current generator at your home. You use off road diesel which is lower tax than road diesel and you can charge at the max in 5 hours or less depending on starting requirements.