Debate: We Were Right to Brexit

Brexit - the decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. It's defenders say it made the country more independent it's detractors say it made the country less rich and powerful. Who's right? Join the debate.
Featuring Daniel Hannan, Robert Tombs, Dominic Grieve, Stella Creasy and Jonny Dymond.
--
It was always going to be a disaster. Queues of HGVs stretching miles from Dover. The Good Friday Agreement threatened by the controversial Northern Ireland Protocol. Increased support for Scottish Independence. The promised lands of lucrative new trading partnerships exposed as nothing but carbon copies of pre-existing EU deals (with Australia the only exception). The livelihoods of fishermen, farmers, and small business owners threatened by extra costs and paperwork. All this, and we have yet to feel the long-term economic damage of leaving the EU, which the Office of Budget Responsibility predicts will cause a 4 per cent reduction to GDP. A recent poll shows that a majority of British people believe we are worse off having left the EU. Clearly, Brexit was a mistake.
That’s the argument of the doomsters in this debate. But others claim that while short-term damage is inevitable - there is always blowback from a jilted partner - Brexit is a long-term project, one that is tied to the fundamental principle of sovereignty. The Referendum result was not just a reflection of disgruntlement with out-of-touch elites or the falsehoods of the Leave campaign, but a direct consequence of the EU’s failings. Instead of unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels, we should put our faith in the idea of the nation state - the best vehicle for democracy. Granted, our trade with our neighbours is reduced, but that was a political choice, and the bulk of Britain’s economic activity is domestic. There are plenty of opportunities for success outside the shackles of EU regulation - what better indicator than the speed of the vaccine roll-out, which far outstripped that of other EU countries? If we sit tight and play to our strengths as a country, we will reap the rewards.
Which side is right?

[@Intelligence-Squared]

What do you think - the right decision or a historic mistake? Leave your thoughts below..

[@SkyTechLover]

Huge mistake. I think the facts are clear. If Boris had decided to be with the Remain campaine now UK could easily be in EU.

[@PEdulis]

The biggest mistake the UK ever did, based on lies and lies put up by a shameless elite claiming to speak for the poor and dividing the country by blaming "foreigners" for everything the government messed up through austerity and corruption.

[@themincingninjapoofsawayli898]

@@SkyTechLover And what about the result of the vote? Does democracy only count when you get the result you like?

[@SkyTechLover]

@@themincingninjapoofsawayli898 The leave campaign was based on lies and endless propaganda. This is clear to everyone now. The majority of Brexiteeres didn't know what they were voting. Also the vote doesn't mean that we should be doomed forever because of one vote. That's why we call it democracy. If after few years a vote didn't achieve a positive outcome. Need to be challenged and a vote to be taken again. Welcome to true democracy. And not to your distopia.

[@Jack.K96]

Both but mainly mistake. I stick to the view of David Cameron. Economically one-way mistake. Maybe securely security wise and immigration subjects were mostly benefited. Still.. economically has the major impact here.. can't deny it. As a conservative mainly in the aspects of defence/security and a bit more pro capitalism a bit more capitalism than socialism depends on the country. Right Wing Security Defence Both balanced capitalism and socialism economically Left Wing socially society. As a moderate-conservative more conservative and a bit labour, I think 3 historic stages in history damaged UK as the former British Empire which from my belief still exists culturally but not economically as it used to be. 1. WWII 40s 2. 80s The disastrous result of Margaret Thatcher's privatizing which went wrong "Done like a butcher instead of a surgeon". Unemployment rose and UK lost Jobs and the country's treasure lost too from the attempt of saving cash as unemployment rate rose and the unemployment checks with them and less incomes. Companies closed. Car companies.. sold or disappeared lost. 3. 10s 2016 Brexit I try to look at the good side and the benefits from Brexit and being optimistic but unfortunately the drawbacks or disadvantages number and impact and their consequences outnumbered the benefits and advantages in whole in the bigger picture. P.s Many ppl didn't vote back then and it's mainly relatively old and young ppl who had the time to vote and so.. there might have been more voters with outdated thinking and views and more ignorant and more anxious and cautious about nationality preservation and security which I can understand the aspect of security mainly and also nationality but it can blind about the economic impacts and their consequences. So I believe that the people who could vote this day were mostly elderly and young generation perhaps but mainly the elderly and less the middle ages and so the results even by slight advantage for leaving the EU were caused by the lack of diversed voters and the availability of more outdated thinking voters that were mostly anxious and worried and cautious about nationality preservation and security and less of the economy and the economy implications too and mainly also complacency from the remain voters that were sure that the vote will result in a big advantage to remain and win the vote to remain so less voters showed up too from the remain voters who pro to remain in the EU. So.. I believe that a second vote to assure the realism and reliability of the result truely reflects most of the people opinion. Anyway.. these days.. covid did get more media attention and the public and the ppl attention than Brexit and the coming economic crisis recession and mainly what worries me, the direction of the world's security. Biden, Putin, Iran, China all of them worries me. Tough times ahead of us. Jack, 26 EEE Student 2nd year Holds Practical Engineer H.n.d in Electronics Diploma Ultra-Anglophile fan of British Culture Sitcoms Comedy Music and Education and much more stuff, from Israel. Feel culturally more British. =D

[@sic_transit_gloria_mundi]

The most hilarious thing is that the panelists pretend that most Britons actually knew what the EU was about when they went to vote...

[@rogerbeesley-lo5tj]

EU membership was almost invisible on the minds of most voters. That "LEAVE" won is a testament to the power of propaganda put out by dishonest politicians and the absolutely amoral mass media.

[@Tdot6]

I look at Brexit as the classic example of 'you don't know what you got until it's gone'

[@peterclarke7240]

It's like having a nice partner who genuinely likes you, who asks you to do things like put the bins out and contribute to the household upkeep,... But you focus on how unfair it is that you have to put your playstation controller down and put out the bins, so you leave them, and end up selling your playstation for beer money and sleeping in your car and getting more and more bitter unti you eventually end up in the drunk tank trying to work out where it all went wrong.

[@rogerbeesley-lo5tj]

Britain was indulged by the EU with numerous "opt-outs", rebates, etc. The damage Brexit has done to the UK is irreparable. The future for England particularly is very grim.

[@VIVA_CPTPP]

You can hear the bitter hatred in Greive's twaddle. He's repeating the wrl

[@matsalvatore9074]

Not at all. It's just a matter of proper policy. Enjoy ur independence, and believe me I know how much Europeans enjoy being ruled over n told how to live n giving up half their earnings in taxation, but you guys should really appreciate governing yourselves

[@DavidEdwards-uf5lg]

I know what we had, and it wasn't much, lmfao, why do remainiacs keep rolling out failed politicians like Dominic Greaves? A has been, get in the trash bin where you belong.

[@richardwillford2418]

As a European, I frequently bought British products on-line before Brexit came into effect. Now, seeing a £-sign is enough to steer me away to other on-line options. Buying from the UK is simply too expensive. Simple as that.

[@aacmove]

100%

[@parasitelights3158]

I only buy music online from abroad. The situation is that most of the bands/labels I'm a fan of are British and accordingly the best deals, new or second hand, were to buy them directly from them. All this ended in the summer of 2021 when the regulations came into force and my next order from the UK was delayed for almost a month and a half, after which I had to go to clear it from customs and finally I had to pay more than 60% extra. At the moment, the main criteria when choosing my orders is that they are not from UK, even if the price is higher, in the end they come out cheaper, arrive much faster and on top of everything I save myself a lot of headaches.

[@HelenLemink]

Same here, i used to buy a lot of expensive electronics to UK online shops but now i buy in Germany, because the delivery delays are uncertain, I need extra paperwork and have no time for that, I'm not sure about the VAT and extra custom cost ( or changes), not sure that the 2 years warranty made by the EU laws will always remain, not sure how to send back products if any problem, etc.. Even if the german shop was more expensive ( wich is not), I will not buy UK anymore. It's not that I don't like UK at all, I've always been very satisfied by the quality of your products, it's just that you are not reliable anymore. I also have customers to satisfy and can't sell them incertitudes.

[@flitsertheo]

I had a collection of Lledo/Corgi "Vanguard" miniature cars. Most of these were purchased in their country of origin, the UK. As it actually was the only country where you could find those miniatures, and at good prices. Today I have sold most of the collection as it is no longer possible to expand the collection.

[@khipksy1888]

Well quite a number of small sellers and small bussinesses in UK have closed down because of the loss of EU clients. For eg previously i used to see alot of products from UK on ebay and amazon here in Germany, and I used to buy alot of stuff from them. In my opinion the number of these small businesses that got closed down from brexit should be in 1000s, but thats ok I guess since instead 10 big businesses posted growth because of it, and thats what matters right?? Profits margin of big businesses who wanted to get rid of EU consumer and employee friendly regulations to make it more like USA. USA .. USA ...!

[@saddoncarrs6963]

England, once the seat of a strong union and a mighty empire, has been on a long slow bumpy downward spiral since WW1. Brexit is all part of that decline. I'd say the country has a ways to go yet but, by all accounts, there is no reverse gear and the nation appears to be heading inextricably towards a rather rocky bottom - with people like Daniel Hannan and Robert Tombs leading the way. There is no empire left, and soon no union.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

The European Union had many opportunities to change their ways, they didn't and we all know what happened next.

[@saddoncarrs6963]

@@jasonkingshott2971 Yes, the EU goes from strength to strength and the UK is on the verge of splitting into its constituent parts.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

@@saddoncarrs6963 Hey ho, that's democracy, I don't suppose it's allowed in your country, like Ireland when they voted for no further EU integration, then told to vote again until they got the 'correct result'

[@saddoncarrs6963]

@@jasonkingshott2971 Actually, there is restricted democracy in my country. In 2014 the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the UK. In 2016 they voted to stay in the EU. They were then TOLD that they couldn't have both - and furthermore, they were TOLD that they didn't have a choice. In 2019, the tories lost more than half their seats in Scotland and the following year a tory PM imposed a hard brexit on the country against its will. So, yes, there is something of a democratic deficit in my country. With regard to the Irish - Ireland is an independent country within the EU. They're free to hold as many referendums as they like. So they can't be "told" to vote again, they can only be asked. If the Irish electorate came up with the "correct result" for the EU, it's only because the Irish electorate wanted it that way.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

@@saddoncarrs6963 When and who told Scotland 'that they didn't have a choice' and where is it documented? in Hansard? The 2016 referendum was a United Kingdom referendum (the clue is in the name) the terms and conditions were set out at Westminster and agreed by all representatives of the UK. You need to come out of that cave you seem to be living in 'The referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 12 June 2008 was rejected by the Irish electorate, by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%, with a turnout of 53%'

[@htlein]

Europe is becoming less important? So how come ALL manufacturing companies are opting for the EU (CE) code when producing their goods for world-wide sale? How come the EU trading block is the largest in the world?

[@jrobs1133]

Still thinking the EU is a trading block. Bless you

[@htlein]

@@jrobs1133 problem with that "question/statement is that you do not bring forward any example as to how the EU is NOT simply a trading block. Any examples where the EU parliament has proposed a LAW that could not be ignored by any given member state? Obviously not - so all the proposals coming from Brussels have to do directly or indirectly with the interaction of goods and/or services between member states and third countries - give me an example where this is not so. PS I do not need blessings since I do not have worship

[@jrobs1133]

@@htlein A "trading bloc" that proposes laws, has a parliament, and a president, is not simply a trading bloc. Sounds more like a country. So that is how it's not simply a trading bloc. NAFTA doesn't propose laws from a central parliament or have a president does it. God bless you, you ignorant fool.

[@andrew300169]

@@htlein 3 weeks and still waiting for a reply I see.

[@htlein]

@@andrew300169 nope - no idea what that means

[@rebeccagunn1946]

Daniel Hannans presentation is pretty pathetic

[@NikoHL]

I couldn't listen to Hannon's drivel..

[@philjames6206]

After 6 years it was the best he could come up with.

[@Nunyabusinesss887]

Listening to this 7 months after it was posted with the benefit of hindsight, it's actually incredible how much the Remain speakers are correct, and how much the speakers for Leave have been proven wrong.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

What do you mean, 'correct'?

[@Nunyabusinesss887]

@Invictus Ok Boomer

[@Nunyabusinesss887]

@@jasonkingshott2971 That the events of the last 7 months, and the new economic information we have, have proved everything that Remain side said here was true, and embarrassed the Leave side as everything they said has been proved false

[@jasonkingshott2971]

@@Nunyabusinesss887 The UK democrats who voted out are not 'embarrassed', they are delighted they are out of that cesspit.

[@Nunyabusinesss887]

@@jasonkingshott2971 I know many Brexiteers are celebrating the destruction of the UK, yes.

[@TheMatthooks]

Most debates start with a question, not a statement. Of course we weren't. We've royally screwed the economy and the people for generations to come. I'm still waiting for a brexiteer to tell me exactly what they've gained from Brexit...

[@thomasherrin6798]

Freedom from the useless E.U., not that we have to justify it to you or anybody, my vote, my choice we won, remoaners tried every trick in the book to block it, but at the end of the cold light of day, out we went, get over it! Note also the economy is not doing so well due to, in part, global circumstances and government errors which can be corrected with the right policies just got to vote smarter, however, compared to say Germany which has enjoyed cheap energy from you know who and paying them a fortune to fund the war and is supposedly sanctioning you know who but not that you'd notice, I much rather be British, not to mention the COVID 19 vaccine debacle where the E.U. wanted to take our vaccines, then spread misinformation about the Astra Zenica vaccine etc. I could go on, enough said!?!

[@TheMatthooks]

@Simon John first off, have you ever read the proposed changes? Because nothing in them could or would have forced us to give up the right to our own army or defence.

[@dopeheaddude9651]

@Simon John all been debunked 5 years ago. The only reason we was given the vote was to save there tax loopholes

[@foundationgamer9771]

You understand that the positive effects are supposed to show after around 20 years? You left-wing pro-EU people are deliberately judging it too early.

[@TheMatthooks]

@@foundationgamer9771 ahhhhh. So it's OK to screw an entire generation of people on the off chance that it might make a difference in two or three decades. Gotcha.

[@whocares264]

I wonder why countries are queuing to join the EU...

[@12presspart]

yes Serbia.Bosnia/hersagovinia.Albania.Montanegro.North macerdonia.Georgia Turkey was a candadate but withdrew.

[@greentoby26]

What's wrong with those countries?

[@whocares264]

@@greentoby26 they have looked at how -ucked the uk is outside

[@reellezahl]

@@12presspartoh look, the racist xenophobe has come out of the woodwork

[@abelnicolae]

To sum up this debate, for all of you who don't want to lose their time: If you repeat a lie many, many times, it ends up becoming true... in your head. And since it's in your head, nobody can take that away from you. Cheers. :)

[@ryuhayabusa5609]

thank you for saving my time

[@jim_herd]

The lie being that the EU was a good thing and it was worth being a member. Naturally.

[@SimUKReviews]

The lie about immediate recession and job losses IF we voted leave....agreed. Total BS and proven as fear mongering, which caused many more people to not vote to leave (fear). Actually that fear mongering helped me vote out, anyone using threats to convince you they are right is 100% WRONG.

[@jim_herd]

@@SimUKReviews They’re still trying to screw Brexit up. There’s a name for people who try to do things like that to their own country.

[@complexaltruist]

@@jim_herd no

[@lecturesfromleeds614]

The irony is that Boris Johnson not enforcing reciprocal checks on EU goods, it gives EU producers a competitive advantage over UK producers, which they wouldn't have in a level playing field, which being in the single market would have provided

[@Pantifaximile]

That would have just fucked us twice.

[@stuartbrown3070]

What total bollocks!

[@uingaeoc3905]

Not really, EU imports to UK have fallen and UK exports to EU have not changed.

[@tcritt]

​@@uingaeoc3905 That's not true though.

[@uingaeoc3905]

@@tcritt It is true - go to the ONS for the proof. In fact UK exports to the EU are at an historic high.

[@ems7623]

It's a little too early to see the full consequences of Brexit. However, so far we have a potential trade war with the EU, a renewed crisis in Northern Ireland, rising costs, and an emboldened Putin who long ago considered distancing the UK from the EU an essential goal of Russia's foreign diplomacy. It has even weakened the special relationship with the US who does not wish to take sides in UK-EU disputes and is frustrated with the perpetual tantrums Westminster has been having with Brussels.

[@ominousparallel3854]

It would have been wiser to keep it to the first sentence.

[@colinstephenson5386]

@@ominousparallel3854 why do you think it would’ve been wiser ? Is telling the truth unwise ? Or maybe telling it as it is won’t get a great deal of appreciation from the Hard Of Thinking ?

[@ominousparallel3854]

@@colinstephenson5386 relating ‘emboldened Putin’ or ‘rising costs’ on Brexit is, to put it politely, absolute nonsense.

[@geoffallibone4026]

@@ominousparallel3854 O mighty speaker of wisdom! Can you sell me some of what you are smoking?

[@rugbykiwi9]

You mean the full benefits of Brexit. Why would you just look at consequences?

[@ryans756]

Absolutely delighted that Pierluigi Collina managed to find work after leaving Italian football :)

[@htlein]

David Frost negotiated the TCA and NOW he is surprised - what does that tell you about his level of competence as a negotiator?

[@mikefish8226]

It tells me you don't have a clue.

[@mogznwaz]

His hands were tied behind his back thanks to EU intransigence and UK remainer treachery

[@htlein]

@@mogznwaz "His hands were tied behind his back thanks to EU intransigence and UK remainer treachery" not sure what this refers to who is "he"

[@Frohicky1]

I don't think that's quite right. The EU worked against the interests of it's own population in punishing the UK for leaving. This is surprising if one thinks the EU is a club for mutual benefit. It isn't if one realises it's a cabal to exact propitiations from some portions of its own population in order to further the political and cultural preferences of some others of its members.

[@hannofranz7973]

@@htlein The same old blame game as always. It was your Brexit decision. The EU has enough reason not to care about the eternal troublemakers. It's wise not to negotiate anything with them.

[@richardsimms251]

What an excellent debate. I have benefited from listening to both sides. But in general, my personal and emotional feeling is that the world is a happier place when geographically close countries do everything to live in harmony ( especially considering Europe’s awful history of endless warring ). RS. Canada

[@flitsertheo]

And that's the goal of the EU, preventing war between its members by closer cooperation.

[@dynamo1796]

I heard it put best by a great economics lecturer and researcher, Anand Menon. Where in the history of the world has a nation done best by neglecting trade with an economic powerhouse on its doorstep? The US trade closely with Mexico and Canada, the Russians, the Indians and the Chinese and the South Americas. It simply makes no sense to trade only across the globe at a competitive disadvantage when the worlds major economy sits mere miles from your coast. That will never ever be sensible economic policy.

[@objectsmith]

@Dynamo Though non of those countries you mentioned has a political union, like them we already have a trade and cooperation agreement with the EU and I don't believe that trading with them has come to a halt either although the massive trade deficit we had has come down in our favour and we no longer have to pay for it. There are pros and cons to Brexit it's time we stopped obsessing about the cons and got on with it.

[@flashgordon6670]

If you listen until the end, you will learn that the fundamental point, is about democracy and the right to self determination. - The Leave party closed by saying, “I would rather live, in a free democratic country, than in a multinational Empire.” (For better or worse) by implication. - This is a very tough issue. Bc there’s pros and cons, with both sides of it. - Personally, I didn’t vote in the referendum. Bc I don’t know, what the correct choice is. As I have no understanding, of the inner mechanisms and consequences of Brexit and I could see fallacies, employed by both camps, in the pre Brexit debate. - Everything that Remain said, would be lost by leaving and gained by remaining, could be accomplished after leaving and visa versa. - So what it all really boils down to, is which flag you prefer and which group of corrupt bureaucrats you prefer. - At least with Leave the EU, there’s only one group, rather than two, controlling the country. - But on the other hand, Great Britain is a group of countries, so there’s a fallacy in the logic of the Leave’s closing statement as well. - The problem with asking the people to decide the matter, was that the vast majority, as I. Have absolutely no idea, of what the mechanisms and consequences are. They may as well have asked us, how to build a space rocket. It’s a complete fallacy and a sham that they deferred to the people to make the decision. It’s like if a family with 5 children all go to the garage when the car is being repaired and they all vote on what to do with the car. It makes no sense whatsoever. - So, what I’ve recently deduced, from this fact. Is that they were always going to implement Brexit and they just wanted to use the people, as a scapegoat, for the blame afterwards. So when things go wrong they will say, ‘It was the people’s choice.’ Thus clearing themselves of any guilt. - The very fact a referendum was even held at all, says that things are going to go wrong, after Brexit is implemented. - They knew this all along, those crafty, pesky politicians and they’ve just been stringing everyone along, as they always do. - Creating the Corona pandemic was just a way of distracting from Brexit and deferring the blame for the post Brexit recession. It’s also “The wall” that Donald Trump promised to build. - The other reason that I didn’t vote in the referendum and more importantly. Is bc I put my trust in God, to guide the nations and Brexit was a part of his divine will. If the prophecy in Ezekiel 37, Daniel and other parts in the Bible. About the two opposing coalitions at Armageddon is to come true. The EU will be on Russia’s side with Persia, Libya and Ethiopia and Great Britain will be in opposition, “with all the young lions thereof.” - There is a YT video called Brexit and the Bible What next? That explains briefly about that. - At the time I bet on Leave @9/2 and later I bet on Donald Trump @9/2 as well. Bc of his policies that fitted with Brexit and the Bible’s prophecy. Also bc I saw him on The Apprentice USA in 2005 and I knew then that he had the potential to become president. Unfortunately I lost in 2018 on Trump, bc of the rigging. But I believe that he will return as President in 2024. Bc there’s no real credible opponent. Again it’s 9/2, I’ve already put my last £840 on it and I’m going to do more. I rest my case and I hope this helps.

[@matsalvatore9074]

@@flitsertheo ha... no

[@GThu1]

I liked the argument: "Look we have more visa requests since the brexit!" Of course you have, since many people has to request now who hadn't before. That only means the burocracy is stronger now.

[@Ben-ej1xp]

Leavers like these 2 are going to eventually run out of people to blame. Slow disintegration of the U.K.

[@LambsyLamb]

The Professor of nationalism seems to forget the British BREXIT cheerleaders are as corrupt as the Europeans if not more so!

[@sararichardson737]

I’m not fit enough for this. I’m feeling nauseous.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

The West is going under to Globalisation.

[@yellowgreen5229]

They NEVER run out of scape goats and dead cats, this is why they are pushing fascist policies which is the next stage of capitalism for the UK or what is left of it, as it quickly disintegrates.

[@mogznwaz]

Why on earth do you consider it such a bad thing for a country to be sovereign and not to consolidate more and more power into fewer and fewer hands? What’s wrong with you??

[@SaniyaKhan-ru5dr]

I'm an American, and I can see a lot of dysfunction in the EU, issues with sovereignty, but the UK offered a referendum on the most dramatic issue the country has faced in possibly centuries, with absolutely *_No Fu**ing Plan!_* Was Brexit about staying in the single market and customs union, either, or neither? What was going to happen with Northern Ireland? What was the plan for supply chains? How were they going to keep London, Europe's only global financial hub, competative with New York, Tokyo, or Shanghai? What were they looking for in global trade? Except for Australia, the UK has carried over the same global trade deals as the EU with minor changes, and after leaving its biggest local market, is now scrabling to join trading blocks in Asia-Pacific, and N. America, it's like they've never heard of the gravity model of international trade, trade with the biggest closest neighbors is more important than little, far away, Australia. Jesus.

[@thecheesefactor]

As a Canadian in the UK I saw little effort here to answer such questions. Many were put under the heading 'project fear'. It has been like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Slowly, people are starting to wake up to how big a mistake this was. The pandemic and the war in Ukraine have been useful for those trying to hide the damage, but now we are seeing the economies in Western Europe recover at a significantly faster rate than we are.

[@stuartbrown3070]

Your view (that there was no plan) is basically a lie put about by EU supporting media, commentators and politicos. The truth is far more murky.

[@uingaeoc3905]

@@thecheesefactor These questions were addressed successfully during the Referendum, and the only argument that the EuroFanatics had was 'Project Fear'; they made NO positive statements about the EU and it is these arguments that won over the biggest vote for anything in UK Electoral History. That was after 42 years membership and the previous referendum was a 2 to 1 majority in favour of joining. Strange how the practical reality broker through the propaganda, The whole of the Western economies are in crisis because of Lockdown dislocations and money printing and an Eco-Lunacy of energy crises and so stagflation. Is Brexit responsible for this in the US and EU and Australia and New Zealand? What damage has been caused by Brexit EXACTLY?

[@uingaeoc3905]

Utter tosh. There was a plan - to Leave the EU its institutions and arrangements. None of this was allowed to happen. the majority of MPs and the Establishment especially civil service are pro-EU because it puts them beyond responsibility and accountability. The NIP was a device to halt even the minimal withdrawal from the EU by using NI as a ratchet. Supply chains were disrupted by the World Wide Lockdowns. There has been no direct dislocation caused by Brexit as the trading patterns with the EU are the same, but UK has started to take advantage of alternative supplies of EU imports because these have fallen. That was the point of the T&CA. Your ignorance in regard to financial services is astounding - London's position was being threatened by the EU imposing a Tobin tax - so EU membership was a threat to that. What on earth do you mean by 'biggest local market' ? this is arrant nonsense the UK's biggest market is the non-EU rest of the World. The EU never bought stuff from the UK because were were in the EU. The Single Market was never an advantage tothe UK. It is not even a 'market' as it is not a place for consumer preferences but supplier price fixing. The bi-lateral trade 'roll overs' were added to and refined to give mutual advantages between the UK and other party, something the EU's non-trade 'deals' did not do. There is NO 'scrabbling' to join trading blocs, these associations have aske the UK, uniquely in Europe' to join them. They are not 'blocs' at all, this is your EU mind set. The UK traded successfully on WTO terms compared to the non-advantages of the EU system. There is no reality to the 'gravity model' of trade and has not been since the exploration and colonial era - certainly not today - ask the Japanese and Chinese. The UK traded at a surplus with rest of world in bigger volumes and values than with the EU (six nations and 21 tadpoles) which in our 42 years membership was always in deficit. Your self delusion is palpable.

[@thecheesefactor]

@@uingaeoc3905 It's impossible to 100% leave the EU and its institutions and arrangements, because they are the largest trading partner and continue to be. Now, we just don't get to vote on them any more as a non-EU member. Most in the know are pro-EU because they know about basic Economics, and to vote trade restrictions onto oneself is stupid. There are gains from trade. The freer trade is, the more those gains are realised. There are those in the establishment who wish to see tax havens preserved, and promotion of the Brexit cause shares an uncomfortable parallel with the EU ramping up its efforts to regulate tax havens. We are talking about the top 1% of incomes here, and various dodgy companies including Russian oligarchs who donate to the Tory party. We're now the worst performing economy in the G7 except for Russia. This is due to Brexit. The worldwide lockdowns have caused problems everywhere but the UK has it worse - because Brexit makes everything worse. "The EU never bought stuff from the UK because were were in the EU"? Nonsense, UK exporters are continuing to lose market share. Your arrogance is matched only by your lack of knowledge of the actual statistics, and wallowing in pro-leave propaganda. You can deny the relevance of the gravity model of trade all you like, but the reality is the EU remains the UK’s largest trading partner. However, for the first time since comparable records began in 1997, the UK now spends more importing goods from the rest of the world than it does from the EU. Can you tell me who is absorbing those extra transport costs? Hmm?

[@VeeSeven700]

We're moderately worse off than we otherwise would have been in the EU. As expected, really. The idea that we could leave the biggest economic market on earth and become better off really was always laughable. And the real zinger for me is the massive increase in illegal immigration as a result of Brexit. The irony is stunning in that one. Who'd have thought that distancing ourselves from our closest neighbours would lead to them being less willing to help us deal with our problems. Did anyone honestly think we could walk away and France would just volunteer to continue to essentially have our border on French soil? Dear me.

[@geoffallibone4026]

I have a bridge for sale. It's a beauty. I think you should buy it.

[@Callie1981]

"moderately worse off" I needed a laugh today

[@orbazel]

Spoken as if dinghies crossing the channel only started in January 2021.

[@VeeSeven700]

@@orbazel Ever since we've negotiated our exit from the EU the number of crossings has skyrocketed. What a surprise! 😅

[@orbazel]

@@VeeSeven700 no denying that, but you’ve got to realise that what is causing these illegal crossings in the first place is a) an open door immigration policy that allows inter-member state travel. B) an unwillingness by the EU and it’s member states to stop illegal immigration entering the EU in the first place. At the end of the day, by UK, EU and French standards, the crossings are illegal and for remainers including yourself to champion the idea that if we’d stayed then the French would actually do what they’re supposed to but because we’ve left then they’re wilfully encouraging illegal activity is a pretty piss poor excuse to want to stay. A ‘you’d better vote remain or else we’ll drop our own standards, forget our own laws and allow illegal activities against you’ is precisely the type of mentality we should all be speaking out against. Some of us however seem to revel in it.

[@daraorourke5798]

Nobody is talking about leaving the Single Market - Daniel Hannan.

[@jayb9779]

Daniel Hannan is such a snake oil salesman

[@philjames6206]

You do a disservice to snake oil salesmen.

[@htlein]

the Eu has exploited ;" the Ireland Situation" (presumably he means NI although he does not say so!) How could the EU exploit a "situation" that the UK government forced the UK to accept (and THAT without any discussion or vote in our Parliament!

[@tobymaltby6036]

Iknowrite ?? All those EU bureaucrats meddling around at the Boyne in July 1690 ...

[@greentoby26]

The EU can exploit what it wants and does what it can to put itself in the best possible position, as every sovereignty does. What's the UK going to do, embargo them?

[@colinstephenson5386]

Hannan says we can do things different, the EU has said all new devices requiring USB power connections have to be universal, Mr Johnson said the UK won’t follow the EU , the manufacturers will make all their new products comply , why ? , because 600 m EU potential customers trumps Johnson’s 64 m customers,

[@stevenrogers5506]

So Johnson has said he won't force UK companies to comply, they have the freedom to decide for themselves, which they have now done?

[@davidwarburton-burley9967]

@@stevenrogers5506 The point is Brexit achieved nothing because the UK remains within the EU's sphere of influence. The UK just lost any say in EU the decisions that affect it

[@stevenrogers5506]

Brexit achieved nothing because British companies have had the freedom to choose to whether or not they follow EU rules? Interesting logic there.

[@AppleSauceGamingChannel]

@@stevenrogers5506 British companies have that choice whether the UK is part of the EU or not. If they don't comply with EU regulations they cannot sell there. The main difference is that the UK has no say on what regulations are implemented in the EU now.

[@stevenrogers5506]

@applesauce British companies dont choose if the UK is in the EU or not, they have chosen to comply with EU regulation so they can sell to EU customers. But UK companies dont have to make products according to EU regulation. Say a new company sets up in the UK to sell goods or services to Japan or South Korea, or China, in the future, that company is not constrained by EU legislation to make the product in a certain way. The company is free to make a product which suits its intended market. Savvy?

[@7rob27]

Dan: Delusional and dishonest.

[@JohnDoe-bq9tq]

It seemed like there was a lot of disagreement on what the actual facts were.

[@DrCruel]

It also seems that this "debate" was something of a set-up.

[@mikefish8226]

I suspect the disagreement on facts is largely due to the difficulty of deconvolving COVID from BREXIT, cherrying picking on both sides and the relatively short time period since BREXIT actually happened due to politicians spending significant time trying to not undertake the task given to them by the British public.

[@gomperhooblet]

@@mikefish8226 Well said, Mike.

[@VelcroKittie]

@@mikefish8226 You mean the British electorate. The "British Public" is a little vague in my opinion and gives the impression that a majority of the British wanted Brexit...which is obviously untrue.

[@mikefish8226]

@@VelcroKittie By the same token, you could say the majority of the British public didn't want to stay in the EU. It's a slippery slope to say that because the majority of all human beings with a state didn't vote for a particular action it is illegitimate. If you didn't vote you probably didn't care either way, abstention isn't a vote against.

[@Bayerberg]

Heres an idea - publish all source data on subjects included in your statements. Things will become clear to anyone willing to spend the time to dig through the facts. Take a guess which side bends the truth and which blatantly lies.

[@user-mg3xr9tz7m]

The problem is that people are not educated to do critical analysis and on a Country where the media is 98% controlled directly or indirectly (including the BBC) by the Tories then its a recipe for disaster

[@vulgoalias4050]

Well, both of them. They just lie in different ways about different things.

[@engineeringvision9507]

You can't because they are debating current reality against a hypothetical alternative history where the UK was still in the EU. It's almost impossible to remove the massive inflationary effects of the printed relief money, the worldwide production shortages, the war in Ukraine and the pandemic itself from the model as those are such impactful economic events. Even if you could it wouldn't actually matter because leave is generally regarded to give the best economic prospects in the medium to longer term, and remain in the short to medium term. So if you're 85 then Brexit doesn't make much sense but if you're 25 then it does even though those groups effectively voted for each others best interests!

[@damianbylightning6823]

@@engineeringvision9507 Best joke is that Plaid Cymru lark about making it an offence for a politician to tell lies - we're seriously wasting parliamentary time and resources on this. Why do we have people like Liz Saville Roberts (PC) elected to Parliament?

[@TW-mp8zx]

Our language is as bent as the minds that navigate it... everything is loopholed into a bendable subject able nothingness... we can say and do anything and get away with it if we know how to, so i take it we can walk away from this subject now?

[@margaretbagnall4729]

Why is it all the right wing parties in the Europe are no longer stating that they want to leave the EU because they have looks at what is going on in the UK and actually now see the benefits of being in the EU and single market and Customs Union

[@greentoby26]

It's not as much a right- or left-wing issue, it's one of such basic decency that even the most deranged populists, no matter if right or left wing, avoid it.

[@bryanutility9609]

@@greentoby26The issue is mass 3rd world invasion. Nothing else matters.

[@S-u-p-a]

And that ladies and gentlemen is exactly why: 1. Russian involvement was there to cause Brexit but had no effect. 2. The DUP published adverts supporting Brexit twisting the argument but had no impact. 3. The figure on the bus 🤣 was lies. But no impact. 4. Since Brexit 4 years back we have already made a loss exceeding ALL the membership fees paid but ofcourse no impact. 5. Bojo was getting a bojo leading Brexit. UK is at the brink of breaking up. But we were right to leave on lies. It's all good.

[@alanh2179]

Now there is a man still expecting his unicorn.

[@davidgreen6490]

As soon as you use the unicorn argument you are labelled a James O"Brienist and rightly ignored.

[@simonbilling2796]

Green and boring jog on you won some much needed poverty?

[@robtyman4281]

​@@davidgreen6490 we need more James O'Briens to keep taking the government to task...... because Labour aren't doing this for reasons only they know.

[@gloin10]

@@davidgreen6490 "As soon as you use the unicorn argument you are labelled a James O"Brienist and rightly ignored"? Really? Are you then? And when this fact free claim become an accepted rule of public debate in the UK? Outside your strange little universette, that is?

[@htlein]

@@davidgreen6490 best go on his program and lend your views directly. - whether you label the gaffs in one way or another - if you are suggesting by the comment "As soon as you use the unicorn argument you are labelled a James O"Brienist and rightly ignored" that the labelling of a subject or attitude has to be judged by its nomenclature - you are quite missing the point!

[@edgardebruin5539]

brexit is a total disaster

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

Not really, soon Scotland will be independent and Ireland reunited so not a total disaster. 😎

[@jamesscottvideos]

Yes, a disaster for the EU, now that they can't keep taking our money, and can't afford their bloated burocracy.

[@klausschumacher7126]

Not really...no more discussions within the EU about leaving.....

[@nicholasnunhofer8501]

Rubbish

[@evolassunglasses4673]

The disaster for the West is debt based economic systems run by central Bankers.

[@airdog1829]

'When you're wrong, own up to what you didn't do right. That's how you learn and earn respect'. 🤗

[@EzraMerr]

Exactly direct that to EU and their policies as well as Prime Ministers like Wilson who turned UK into the socialist shithole it is for over 70 years now whilst brainwashed students blame the problems caused by socialism (fascism) on ( non existent) capitalism

[@allsearpw3829]

What a nice way to live ones life . IF ONLY .😉

[@Aldo_Regozzani]

England lost all respect, so it has to learn a LOT!

[@EzraMerr]

@@Aldo_Regozzani EU too

[@Aldo_Regozzani]

@@EzraMerr YEP!

[@Milo-wl2if]

The Uk's Consumer Price Inflation was 9.0% in May 2022 according to the ONS, not 6.7% as claimed by Hannan.

[@uingaeoc3905]

Look at the date he was dealing with.

[@susansantapola]

He is massaging the figure to suit his narrative.

[@Milo-wl2if]

@Simon John no, the reason energy costs are so high is because of lack of investment in new supply and idiot Governments legislating against fossil fuel exploration and production and trying to retire nuclear energy. Covid lockdowns and the Ukraine war are distractions from a decade of terrible policy making.

[@Milo-wl2if]

@Simon John add in money creation during a decade of QE, climate change devastating food production and stupid decisions to create trade friction due to a xenophobic ideology means more than a decade of high inflation to look forward to. All the while Rupert Murdoch and his ilk will tell you to blame anyone and anything that suits his nihilistic agenda.

[@PDVism]

@Simon John hmm..... strange tho' that even while the EU countries had to deal with the pandemic as well that they seem to do a whole lot better economically. I wonder why that would be. Of course it can't have anything to do with Brexit, surely not, could it, perhaps?

[@benjio77]

Despite 6 years to think about it, the brexiteers couldn't think of a single brexit benefit- so the haunted pencil, Jacob Reese-Mogg, polled Express 'readers' for ideas. 2000 were rejected for being ridiculous, unworkable or plain illegal. The top two ideas? More fracking and less efficient vacuum cleaners.

[@TheMatthooks]

We've given more visas because we've had to. Because the large numbers of seasonal workers from the euro zone have been stopped, we now need to administer huge numbers of expensive and bureaucratic visas. Are the people coming from different places? Of course not. It's just made getting people more difficult and expensive. Increasing the cost of food to the customer.

[@m3r810]

Europeans are not coming anymore ,if u would go in real world jobs you ll see alot of pakistans ,nigerians and indians (difference they are entirely diffrent uneducated ,lazy and diffrent way of living in general )

[@Happin3ess]

Why do so many brits still travel to Europe? If they hate Europe so much?

[@S-u-p-a]

Yeah but Bojo was happy

[@IntelligentArtefact]

The supreme act of British Self Harm.

[@paulgilson2347]

I genuinely can't think of one way it will benefit us, but can think of plenty it has hurt us.

[@EnglishroG]

The only thing I can think of is it gets the UK out of the ludicrous Common Agricultural Policy, a notorious and extremely expensive EU scheme that used to produce "wine lakes" and "butter mountains" and more recently has paid farmers for leaving their land uncultivated.

[@borderfox2]

@@EnglishroG but where is the evidence of this ?

[@remcovanek2]

@@borderfox2 there is none because it is untrue.

[@getoverit123]

Escaping the left

[@paulgilson2347]

@@getoverit123 what? You do know we have a left wing party in this country yeah?

[@billpugh58]

Slowest growth in the G20 bar Russia. Why is Johnson still spouting the fastest growth lie?

[@23bit76]

He's explaining tory donors erections

[@oneeyedgirl617]

Because it will all unravel if he (they) started admitting the truth...its unravelling anyway, just slower.

[@Mercs_Beamers]

Because he thinks that we were studied enough to believe blatant and obvious lies from the vote leave campaign so we’ll believe anything but people getting poorer and poorer over time and they’ll start to see the truth

[@Mercs_Beamers]

@Leroy Jenkins the economy contracted the last few months! Go on blame covid I actually can’t believe your argument! There wasn’t a recession when we voted leave, never mind the recession that’s just about to happen when we did actually leave.

[@Milo-wl2if]

Daniel Hannan is the most disingenous Brexit whisperer.

[@dogwithwigwamz.7320]

I wouldn`t put it quite like that. Take BoJo. He`s not a Brexiter. Very shortly before he decided that he was a Brexiter he was talking about how ludicrous it would be to turn one`s back on the buisness that lies on our doorstep in favour of lands half way across the world and further... No ! He saw that the price of his Premiership was the cost of selling the country. There was a never a time in that entitled lad`s head where the country would come first.

[@andomikel1]

Since this debate two big news have entered the debate : 1 The Scottish official demand for a new referendum. 2 the current account deficit number for the first semester of this year , which is 8.3 %…………..

[@UkSapyy]

Predicted to rise to 13%. Brexiters claim stuff like we had the fastest vaccine roll out however we also wasted 37bn on a track and trace system that did not work. Then we went and spent our annual foreign aid budget just on Ukraine because the government once again wants to portray the UK as strong. Our government spent so much just trying to be the first and now the government expects us to pay for their pantomime show. What's worse is the public has become complacent to political corruption as we watch populist right-wing Brexit hopefuls kick away the future of young Britons. I'm centrist and pragmatic in most of my views and it makes me angry seeing we have no one to oppose this madness.

[@drunkensailor112]

And the UK economy is the only economy whose gdp in 2022 is still lower than in 2019. Yeah that's right even countries like Romania have recovered gdp past Corona.

[@stitch77100]

@@drunkensailor112 and at the beginning of 2023 too... (I believe Romania has though, good for them)

[@johnBSadro]

If I run a shop and I decide to stop trading with the vast majority of my clients - never mind that I insult them in the process - what do you think will happen to my business?

[@bh5037]

if you ask a brexshiteer you simply have to trade elsewhere or to work harder ! or leave for the EU ! happy with such an answer ???

[@ZER0--]

When your business fails you will blame your clients of course (if you were a Brexiteer.)

[@jrobs1133]

When did we stop trading?

[@Malky24]

If I'm on the board of a supermarket and decide to leave that job to set up a shop next door to the supermarket how well do you think I'm going to do?

[@jrobs1133]

@@Malky24 Goods exports to the EU reached £16.4bn in April 2022, their highest level in current prices since the series began in 1997. So, you'd do that well.

[@ianparker1456]

People sitting in the house of Lords talking about lack of democracy

[@whocares264]

never mind we will have an unelected pm soon ...

[@hoegild1]

Amazing! 10 seconds in, and the Brexiteer manages to insult the audience AND declare, that they are against him! Done in a debate, where he tries to persuaded them that he is a good guy, doing the right things! Dont they teach rhetorics in posh English schools?

[@Mightypi]

He did have a very good go at it.

[@ShankarSivarajan]

He was right: they were 2 to 1 against him.

[@johngalt227]

He's just an extremist in a suit

[@anapombeiro2411]

Where has this first speaker been living since 2016? The dooms day didn't happen but neither did the unicorns arrive, wait until border checks for goods coming from the EU are imposed as per WTO rules. Thank you DG for bringing some sanity to the floor.

[@flitsertheo]

Death by a thousand cuts. That is what awaits the UK with every new Third Country rule being applied by the EU.

[@MrJhoskarson]

If we ( 🇬🇧) are the best model of democracy comparing to EU, let’s then allow Northern Irland and Scottish to choose their destiny …SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE AND PROTECTION OF NI PROTOCOL THAT WESTMINSTER WANT TO SCRAP UNILATERALLY

[@paul1979uk2000]

As a Brit, I actually consider the UK and US democracy to be some of the weakest in the western world with its first past the post, mainly two party system and regional groupings which tends to ignore a lot of our votes. The EU isn't perfect but I have more faith in them then I do in the UK government with everything they've been going on the last 5 or so years. As for Scotland and Northern Ireland, a true democracy wouldn't have any issues with them having a voice on if they want to stay or leave and in fact should be able to have a voice at their choosing, clearly thought, we've got Westminster trying to dictate terms and block a referendum in Scotland and you have to wonder how would the Brexiteers react to that if the EU did the same to the UK on the Brexit referendum, I think they would go ape, but then the EU is a lot smarter than this current UK government.

[@MrJhoskarson]

@@paul1979uk2000 spot on 👍🏽

[@UkSapyy]

@@paul1979uk2000 The UK government started this by being the most democratic nation in the Western world. They put a vote to the public. The EU doesn't allow the general public anywhere near their final decision-making processes.

[@williamstewart888]

YEP, and, as to the guy with the "yorkie" wife??? say it in good auld plain AngloSaxon!!! you know, inglish German!! like George!!! (German) Scotland was and IS right!!! ps(are we now in the UQ?????? tell me someone, just what is , e, (United) about this, er, (Upside down now) UQ??????????

[@maxwild1212]

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market” - Daniel Hannan MEP, 2015

[@p.g.u.d]

Daniel knew his position was not the default one. He said this before the referendum. It became very clear that we could not stay inside the SM. SM membership is part of the EU treaties, and leaving the EU means ending the treaties. This is set out in article 50. you can keep whining about this but it makes no difference. It's just sour grapes.

[@maxwild1212]

@@p.g.u.d When did he say this? Could you provide a source? "It became very clear that we could not stay inside the SM." Nope, not correct. We could quite easily have stayed inside the SM. The EU offered as much.

[@p.g.u.d]

@@maxwild1212 Watch this very video and listen to what he SAYS. He explains it.

[@p.g.u.d]

@@maxwild1212 I am not interested in getting into any dispute and I have NO INTEREST in acceding to the EU. So DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRAW ME ON IT. I will ignore ALL such attempts.

[@davidpryle3935]

@@maxwild1212 The U.K. had to leave the single market to stop free movement of labour. It’s why the working class voted to leave. It’s not that difficult to understand. There are more opinions than Daniel Hannan’s.

[@AndereAlbert]

The rest of the world is laughing at (Brexit) Britain.

[@AndereAlbert]

But from the Netherlands, we would love to have you back.

[@xyleblack2545]

​@@AndereAlbert Same here from a German. But, you can laugh at the insane decision while simultaneously wanting the UK to reconsider it's course.

[@nonamenameless5495]

In my book at least, Stella Creasy totally mopped the floor with a very concise, hard hitting speech followed up by great direct answers to the questions - outstanding! I m not a Brit, never heard her name before so I genuinely don t know about her track record but her speech and answers were of the kind that I d qualify as impressive, fact based, straight to the point without beating around the bush.

[@anindyamajumdar4088]

Ah yezzz! Reciprocal checks on EU goods is the a brilliant move ! TO ESCALATE A TRADE WAR WITH THE EU . Are three lectures from Leads specialize in comedy???!

[@LeDoctorBones]

@MulhorandPrince Playing the "Hitler card" is actually a known rhetorical trick I learned from public speaking. We specifically learned to never do it, since it signifies you've lost the debate since you have no actually valid arguments left.

[@htlein]

Which polls are we talking about in France? Wo commissioned the polls? No mention of other polls which show French citizens will never leave the Eu and see continued participation as an advantage - even le Penn does not advocate leaving the EU now!

[@johnjeanb]

Frenchman here: Brexit demonstrated to all Europe it was a disaster to leave the EU. Le Pen (and others) advocated that all troubles came from the EU (sounds familiar?) but now, they ALL have second thoughts. Thank you Britain, it is one rare time recently when you enlighten the world. Yes, the EU is not perfect but look at the UK and its lack of democracy one chamber is not elected, the PM is elected by buddies, no written constitution. In fact, today, Johnson has all the powers to do what he wants. You could call this a dictature of a few over the vast majority of Britons.

[@ellied.violet7372]

@@johnjeanb Bon soir jjb! Probably carrying coals to Newcastle but nevertheless: do vote tomorrow! Every vote counts. Greetings from Paris (today)

[@jugbywellington1134]

@@johnjeanb Brexit has demonstrated no such thing, but my friends in the EU say the media have done their best to portray it as such. Sorry to burst your bubble, but if, for example, we in the UK believed the BBC/Guardian, we would believe our future is very dark. There's a very good reason why both these biased sources of "news" are struggling to survive. It sounds as though you take your mainstream media at face value. I suggest you investigate the work of Joseph P Farrell, an American, and broaden your perspective. The EU is controlled by Germany and does not promise you the bright future you appear to imagine. Before you say it; no, I don't hate Germany, but it appears the "losers" of WW2 have actually won and, even better, have some of you in their subjected nations as their most ardent supporters.

[@johnjeanb]

@@jugbywellington1134 So everything is fine for you in the UK? Perfect. Here in France we don't have big problems i reassure you in case you were worrying. That old "divide and conqueer British approach to things is funny (nothing beats teasing a French about Germany?) Your clock is 70 years behind. I live in France, I have lived in Germany and all this is BS. Yes we have problems, gas is getting expensive, inflation is now 5% and will reduce by the end of the year. Without any doubt I prefer living here than in little England. So all is well.

[@jugbywellington1134]

@@johnjeanb I'm happy to hear it, but don't say nobody warned you. Some of us also keep an eye on the future.

[@danellis-jones1591]

Economically the biggest mistake ever.

[@ominousparallel3854]

How so? Given the chronic low growth in the EU and the biblical energy crisis they’re about to experience, I seriously doubt leaving would be a long term blow.

[@danellis-jones1591]

@@ominousparallel3854 Because we are cut off from frictionless trade with the richest trading bloc in the world. Because we're now in a desperate place to get trade deals signed, and every country in the world knows it, so we're likely (and already have) to sign trade deals where we get screwed. That sets up systemic economic pain for decades. The independent OFR has said brexit will cost the UK over 4% of GDP. There are many other reasons people voted to leave (none I agree with, some I have sympathy for), but purely economically it's a disaster

[@ominousparallel3854]

@@danellis-jones1591 this is such a bizarre statement, bordering panic with no empirical ground. Italy’s growth has been a disaster since it joined the Euro. So have been Spai and Greece. On the other hand Switzerland is doing very fine outside the EU. Based on these I am not sure why being member on the EU correlates with economic success. In which part of which trade deal have we been ‘screwed’?

[@danellis-jones1591]

@@ominousparallel3854 The Australian trade deal is great for Australia. Crap for the UK. This is because tgecUK is in a position of weakness when negotiating these deals. Also we have no expertise. The Australian trade negotiators have decades of tough negotiating experience. Using today's economic data for Europe is not very clever. Firstly all of Europe has rebounded from covid much better than the UK. And all Western countries are in the same boat atm. But as time goes in we'll see that the UK fundamentally poorer because it's sold itself to various countries via these bad trade deals, and our trade with the EU has dropped off a cliff. Which it already has

[@ominousparallel3854]

@@danellis-jones1591 speculation, hear say, and bogus reasoning. What is ‘crap’ in the Australian trade deal exactly? Can we be precise? Italy had very low growth over last 25 years. Facts. Switzerland doing very well. Facts. Not just looking the last few years, bu much longer than that. Evidence evidence and more evidence please.

[@tomscottjet]

Disappointed to see yet another discussion of the B word where both proponent and opponent treat Northern Ireland as a footnote of the debate.

[@lfcgero35]

Exactly considering where we are at today but lets be honest the tories couldnt careless about northern ireland. Remember boris promising the unionist businessmen there would be no sea border that work out well. All the people boris made promises to are all coming back to haunt him now. He has put the uk in a position that even ex colonies can come looking for their pound of flesh.

[@stuartbrown3070]

It is a footnote. It'd be like centring the debate on Jersey or Guernsey.

[@tomboyle4312]

@@stuartbrown3070 Or farmers...

[@uingaeoc3905]

But you do not put the blame squarely on the May Remainer Parliament 2017-19 not to allow a No Deal Exit without the 'Back Stop' or NIP. The result would be that the UK would still be in the EU as members today and the democratic decision ignored.

[@tomscottjet]

@@uingaeoc3905 there's blame to be shared in a plethora of places: the politicians who dismissed concerns as "project fear", the Remain campaigners who didn't get the message home of the impact it would have on NI, the charlatans who continue to espouse that the GFA and Brexit process are compatible, May's confidence and supply with the DUP (a party not representative of a majority of the people of NI on this issue), and the criminal in Downing St who promised "no border on the Irish Sea" with no intention of keeping that promise. And the English political establishment who are unionist in name but only in action when it is politically expedient.

[@alexvince461]

Never give a serious decision to a gammon

[@SkyTechLover]

The first speaker said all the time that Brexit is not soooo bad. I thought Brexit was to be Great not to be not soooo bad.

[@simonclare100]

You'll never know as brexit hasn't happened fully, one foot in and one foot out is not brexit

[@SkyTechLover]

@@simonclare100 ​ @Simon Clare Uk can't move to the Pacific Ocean, So Uk is and always will be here. In Europe. Your fairyland is just a fairyland. As soon your head understands that the UK cannot move and it is not an Empire Anymore better for your head. Brexit is done, BOJO is the most extreme Brexiteer. If you want something else will never come. Because the something else you are looking for will be a devastation for the UK so will be a devastation for you and your family.

[@SkyTechLover]

@@simonclare100 Also I know very well that Brexit now has become a cult a religion. So your head is hard to change from it. It doesn't matter the facts the numbers. You will always find something to say that BREXIT is not done and blah blah blah.

[@simonclare100]

@@SkyTechLover unfortunately you don'

[@simonclare100]

You don't understand very much

[@sailor67duilio27]

Prof, the UK is out of the EU, just deal with it. Being a 3rd country sucks.

[@miakeogh6844]

The EU were delighted to see the back of the English because they are not and never were team players and spent most of their time in the the democraticly elected parliament decisions are made by the 27 EU counties together a word the English hav great difficulty with

[@thepenguinmafia]

Does Daniel not know that we... didn't leave the EU in 2016? Since actually leaving Kent *has* become a car park, growth *has* been far lower than comparable EU nations. It just happened in 20/21 rather than 16/17.

[@rocarolan2003]

How many lies can you put in 9 minutes Danial Hannan. Jesus they learnt Notting.

[@andimcgaw]

Daniel Hannan doesn't like facts and can't handle the truth. He even went after the host. That's what happens when you know you've lost

[@gordonlam60]

If being independent is such a great thing, would Boris grant Scotland and Northern Island the rights to decide their own fates?

[@christopherchessum7439]

They've already been given that chance. They decided to stay.

[@gordonlam60]

@@christopherchessum7439 they now regret and want to have another chance.

[@kevt3318]

Scotland argued that a hard border in N.I would be bad if we left the EU. Scotland would have the same issue.

[@kevt3318]

​@@gordonlam60 I'm Scottish, no Scotland doesn't regret it, the SNP does.

[@gordonlam60]

@@kevt3318 is SNP Scottish?

[@shaunh5316]

Interesting how the two journalists in the audience (BBC and The Express) were unable to articulate questions in a Q&A session and just made lengthy statements outlining their personal experiences / worldview.

[@htlein]

third speaker again - the EU is secretive? And how can one be secretive when ALL is open - he obviously has NO idea how elections are held, what the difference is between first past the post and gerrymandering as opposed to proportional representation. Rules and then even laws are subject to scrutiny in the EU parliament and even then individual member states take those rules into their own laws as they wish (the UK refused to enact 57 of such rules when we were inside the EU!

[@7jonny77]

He said in the opening statement "go back to our very damp and beautiful Island" NI is not on that Island - remember. That speaks a thousand words

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

The simple fact is Britain cannot leave the EU completely while it continues to occupy part of a country that is still in it.

[@Oluinneachain]

Ah but it is Brexit not UKexit!

[@888Caz]

@@Oluinneachain May I ask, wouldn't that mean that Britain was never in the EUROPA UNION CORPORATION from the beginning? Only the UNITED KINGDOM CORPORATION?

[@Oluinneachain]

@@888Caz ?

[@Oluinneachain]

@@888CazBritain is a geographic entity. UK is a polity.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

That third speaker is saying he was surprised that 'The E.U was such fierce negotiater because Britain is their 'main protector. ' . That doesn't make any sense. By leaving the E.U, Britain became the economical competition of the E.U .So offcourse they negotiated hard.

[@christopherchessum7439]

He didn't actually say that. Listen again. Moreover, economies compete even within the EU.

[@williamfence566]

Irrespective of your politics I always thought division / hate and isolation is a poor substitute to communication / compromise and inclusion in all aspects of life. We had a voice and an influence in the decision making of a important part of the global market place and threw it away. Generations will never understand.

[@deanunio]

Australia, Canada, New Zealand all do fine not in a block. Can still compromise and communicate if you choose to

[@Salaom7]

At the bottom of this comment is the Office for National Statistics most recent report on the impacts of COVID and Brexit on the economy. Generally speaking, it's difficult to quantify to what degree the negative impacts are due to the pandemic and to Brexit. What we do know is that Brexit heavily exasperated critical issues and created new issues. Employment shortages in all essential industries, especially at a time when we were most reliant on them, I.e. healthcare and logistics shortages. Brexit issues were more in the nature of, new bureaucracy at the boarder heavily dragging the time to get products into the UK, historical European labour in the form of lorry drivers, nurses, and seasonal workers etc. absent from the UK market, the loss of competitive advantage on European business in the financial sector, and years of uncertainty around Brexit stifling business decision making and investment. COVID issues were more: global slow down of manufacturing, particularly in China, a sudden decline in global demand and price for crude oil and gas followed by a polar opposite dramatic increase in the demand and price for crude oil and gas (then further exacerbated by sanctions on Russia). Both heavily contribute to the current state of things in the UK. Stock market performance was high mainly due to Technology performance (McKinsey's Covid-19 Impact on Capital Markets) Important fact, the UK is a service economy, which is our main export. 80% of the UK economy is in Services so impacts to that industry have a more major impact on output. Also, when things like low unemployment and house price increasing are mentioned in the context of this debate, it's a red herring. Unemployment is low, yes, but for the first time since records began there are more vacancies than unemployed people (ONS, uklabourmarket/may2022). That means the economic failure is the pool of available labour. You would usually address this with incentives in immigration policies. The increase in prices in the housing market should just never be mentioned as something successful in the UK market, it's actually quite insulting. Housing increase are not happening because of healthy economic activity and wealth generation, it's being pushed by an extreme demand of housing and a low supply. There are two problems here. 1) People need a place to live and buying a home is always a good investment, so we encourage people to buy a house and try to make it accessible, for instance Help to buy scheme. 2) on the flip side, the main issue with housing is the lack of supply and availability, without addressing the supply issue adequately, increasing the demand for housing is causing a rat race and driving prices up insanely quickly. Now the thing is the main winners in this scenario are landlords. Even as a homeowner, you can sell your home and get the money to buy a new place, but from a money point of view, you would probably need to use that money to buy a new house which is just as expensive, so in order to up size, you would need to put in more capital. I will say, the government is currently going through policies that aim to help the supply issue, but at the same time, housing construction needs to become more competitive, which it isn't. We also need to shift housing construction to a manufacturing style as this improves quality and speed at the cost of more upfront capital from the companies. The incentive to do this just isn't there in the UK. ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/theimpactsofeuexitandcoronaviruscovid19onuktradeinservices/november2021 (ONS, impacts of EU Exit and Corona, Nov 2021) I just want to add, Brexit was never really an economic debate it was an emotional one. The UK was in a deep state of discontent (rightly so) but that energy was focused on the EU.

[@Oluinneachain]

Excellent analysis of current economic situation. 👏🏼

[@alvanrigby6361]

The way to alleviate labour shortages should be greater labour participation, reduction in underemployment and training of local people - NOT increasing immigration as the first option!

[@user-mg3xr9tz7m]

@@alvanrigby6361 there you go nothing like a xenophobe to simplify a complex problem reducing it to forrrrreigners. You are not alone however as you lot were the ones that made Brexit win

[@alvanrigby6361]

@@user-mg3xr9tz7m Sour grapes. Also contempt for Democratic values. And when you have lost the argument you revert to slurs.

[@ezioauditore4389]

@@alvanrigby6361 Educating your own people to get better paid jobs is a very good thing to do. But what's with the jobs where you need no high education? The ones with low paymemt. Who will work in these jobs? Typical a country fills these jobs with immigrants. At some point a society depends on a certain amount of immigration, because its not 'producing' low educated workers itself.

[@brianmacadam4793]

The UK economy had outgrown the EU zone is a statement that requires CONTEXT ! A large portion of that growth was to "stock up" for the upcoming trade break-up. Further, while there wasn't a huge "crash"; there has indeed been an enormous cost to the UK both in lost GDP, lost investment, the loss of entire industries, and the loss of Financial influence in the City of London. TRILLIONS of financial investment has been shifted to the EU and that will erode the City in the long run.

[@netteundgut]

That's my point too, Brian you are a person with normal and full brain. Ask me what the other brain is. It is An empty brain that is full with noise, and as German would call it Märchen or Story.

[@fredatlas4396]

The UK economy hasn't really gone anywhere since the 2010 election

[@accountreality1988]

@@fredatlas4396 i feel no less richer or poorer since the late 2000s when i started working.

[@fredatlas4396]

@@accountreality1988 lucky you. Do you live with your parents and not have to pay any bills

[@mogznwaz]

Wrong. The City is doing just fine and attempts by the EU to force traders to move have failed . I also noted that the EU is attempting to refuse equivalence to the UK which it has granted to the Americans . Surely this is a. A violation of fair competition law b. Indicative of the EUs malevolence c. indicative of the EUs fear of competition

[@jorrittimmers8066]

I feel it is brave of all panelists to participate in the debate. It is so important to have this debate in our living rooms as well

[@dopeheaddude9651]

@Simon John to save the tax havens and tax loophole......there was no EU army debunked

[@Garcwyn]

If you are pro trade and for open markets while doing this in a manner that is fair to the participants and the environment it inevitably ends in a common set of rules and regulation. A country needs to pool sovereignty with other countries to achieve this but note it’s pooling sovereignty not giving it away. This in essence is what these rabid idiots call a “political union”. The thing is that any form of highly integrated and sophisticated market will “feel” like a political union because to achieve this degree of frictionless trade, level playing field, and a long etc pooling sovereignty is necessary. But it’s not a political union. It’s never been. The contradiction of free market conservatives going agaisnt this can only be resolved in two ways: - they don’t care about the environment a/o - they don’t care about the working classes Yes, it’s possible to sacrifice the set of rules and regulations by optimising any of the points above which was always their plan. “Optimising” means degrading rules and regulations that are there to protect the environment, the workers’ rights, and I would add SMEs to a lesser degree. If you remove all that yes you are sovereign and a free marketer but at what a cost to everyone else? I’m sure Daniel Hannan is not losing sleep because of this. He is not going to be the one footing the bill

[@lennylaa1686]

Remainderthal peeing in the wind. 1973 - UK was draggued into a ''common market'' EEC which then morphed into 1992 Maastricht political/federal Treaty - the EU - FOR WHICH NO-ONE VOTED! Get the blinkers off - ''pooling sovereignty'' means imposition of rules to which we never agreed, never a word of consultation.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

This is wrong, the EU has always been a political Union and the UK ratified the treaties that made it so, albeit with several exemptions and extra rights etc.

[@sailor67duilio27]

Question how many ukrainian refugees are in the EU and how many are in the UK, that will answer a lot about the uk

[@tobymaltby6036]

...several people I know are still awaiting their Ukranian Refugees they agreed to take in to their homes months ago...

[@TribalmonkeyS]

Dominic Grieve very good overwhelmed here with objections to the first guys assertions. what a load of misinformation that I think he actually believes. 1. scotland didn't increase support for union straight after the vote 2. trade deals are terrible and were so quick as we gave them everything they wanted. 3. the negative predictions I heard are all happening now 4. the balance of pros and cons are not even slightly balanced as its all negatives 5. we are less globally influential now . more little England

[@TAHeap]

"overwhelmed here with objections to the first guys assertions. what a load of misinformation that I think he actually believes. "1. scotland didn't increase support for union straight after the vote " Yes, it's Hannan. He's happy to just make stuff up with no actual relationship to reality. A classic example is an article he wrote for the 'Telegraph' (November 12th, 2008, now deleted!) explaining that because the EU had changed its "rules specifying the maximum permitted curvature of bananas" that meant that everything the Eurosceptics claimed was true. Perhaps he is just too thick to understand the difference between having standards for classification of different grades of wholesale produce in order to make markets function more smoothly and "rules" specifying what is allowed to be sold or not, but that really isn't the point, here. The *point* is that -in spite of these changes being reported in the 'Telegraph' a few weeks earlier- no changes to the standards in question had actually taken place! None of the stuff that he wrote about actually happened in reality! The *point* is that Hannan was an MEP - the person actually *paid to represent the interests of the UK* in the EU and to vote on legislative proposals in the Parliament on behalf of his constituents. And yet, here he is in the 'Telegraph' writing made-up polemic in support of his own obsessions about completely non-existent content from regulations upon which *he* was the person supposed to have voted on our behalf. One could hardly ask for a clearer demonstration of being completely unfit for public office and abusing his position. And the bananas, etc.? You don't hear so much about those things, these days... We still buy bananas (and other produce) following exactly the same classifications as before and will continue to do so indefinitely. There is no prospect of any change whatsoever and, even if the UK wanted to change them (and there is no reason nor demand to do so in reality) it would be impossible. Why? Because pretty much the entire world produces to the standards and classifications specified by the 'Codex Alimentarius' so that's what is available! In short, these things are no longer regulated by the EU but by a global body ... whose rules are pretty much word-for-word identical to the former EU standards. What Brexit has changed is that the UK standing now has far less influence or control over those standards than it did as an EU member.

[@mariaescosura3972]

@@TAHeap Hannan is the master manipulator behind the whole concept of UK being better off alone. He fed false truths, like the bananas example, into people's minds so they came to believe that they could have ' our country back'. Where did the country went? What he meant by 'to get back control' is to get the empire back. Allowing immigrants from India so the curry houses can survive and thrive in numbers is legitimate. So there you have it folks- curry houses are to solve all the country's staff shortages🙃

[@minivaughan1]

Terrible argument at 7:59. "Immigration hasn't been discouraged because the number of visa applications have increased." Uh, yeah, because now Europeans need visas to get in? I can't believe that when you end freedom of movement, more people apply for visas. But I'll wager the rise in visa applications is far, far less than the amount of people from the EU who would have entered the UK, but were put off by the barriers we erected. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is up to you, but it's certainly a shoddy argument.

8:20 Pre-Brexit EU citizens didn't need to apply for visa, duh.

[@elipa3]

And they didnt need passports to travel to UK , ID was enough. I myself visited the UK in former times. My old passport is somewhere in a cupboard. I dont need it to travel the whole EU. Just guess, if I am willing to pay a lot of money for a new passport, when I travel the whole EU with my ID.

[@Arltratlo]

@@elipa3 same here.... never been stopped, not even at the Swiss border!

[@jananders1351]

Pick your statistics to support your point. Dishonest but perhaps typical. However you are absolutely right in pointing it out.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

I don't when I go to Tokyo.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

No they didn't, there are approximately 4000 dangerous European criminals in UK prisons, these are just the ones who slipped through the liberal week UK justice system and at £50,000 per prisoner per year, perhaps the remoaniacs can start paying for their keep.

[@matteomagurno3068]

Hi Intelligence Squared, could you please make subtitles available for this video? I’m sure many others need subtitles too. Much appreciated.

[@kfhroe8262]

KZbin will add them, with time.

[@matteomagurno3068]

@@kfhroe8262 I wasn’t aware of that, thank you. I was wondering too if they could take the time to put the subtitles themselves.

[@kfhroe8262]

@@matteomagurno3068 It is expensive...

[@RobVespa]

@@kfhroe8262 - No, it isn't. It can be automatically done via technology. Even if it were done by hand, which isn't necessary, it's not that large of a task. Granted, you can pay a lot for any service. That's true.

[@CrazyInsanelikeafox]

It now has subtitles.

[@abdiumar8641]

Fellow going on and on about democracy? Does he mean Netherlands, Denmark, France, have no democracy? If democracy only works at a small national level, what of Scotland and Ireland ... are they not then in a dictatorship of UK?

[@robatkinson8746]

No, they are in a parliamentary democracy rather than an autocratic union that is run by an executive that meets in secret.

[@mogznwaz]

The UK is one nation moron, it’s more similar to German federalism. EU law overrides national laws so in effect France etc have no real say in their laws anymore - the peoples wishes no longer matter

[@yvesclinquart6031]

Just for your information, all changes in the constitution in eu countries need 2/3 of votes. In uk only 50% of the parlement is need.

[@tobymaltby6036]

I note that you say "the Netherlands" and not Holland. Most Brits wouldn't get the significance, sadly....

[@ominousparallel3854]

Netherlands and France voted no to the constitutional treaty and got it anyway labelled as the Lisbon treaty with minor differences. So yes the way the EU behaved is highly questionable on the democratic front.

[@joeduffy3309]

The fact you are still debating it 7 years later answers the question.

[@laverite6427]

Ask the fishermen who are in a very precarious economic situation and according to an internet documentary they say they were visited and deceived by Boris Johnson. Now, to maintain the fishing quota, fish are imported from Iceland and Norway at a very high cost.

[@colinmcclymont]

Farmers [oo

[@engineeringvision9507]

Ah yes, a documentary by the Guardian with a sample size of 3. Very science. Such impartial!

[@alexiskiri9693]

@@engineeringvision9507 glad to here how wonderful Brexit is going for you. What do you do? Smuggling or money laundering?

[@philodonoghue3062]

See what a difference a knowledgeable, competent and fair chairman of a debate makes.

[@SciFiGrinch]

I take it that comment is sarcastic. Just measured in time of answers the anti-brexit side had a clear advantage which was allowed by the moderator.

[@1972hermanoben]

@@SciFiGrinch I wouldn’t have thought so. Possibly, the Pro side felt they’d said all that needed saying in less time, brevity being the soul of wit etc. In any case, the Pro side won the swing of votes by a factor of 10% of the voters - I don’t see anything for the Pro side to be unhappy about, other than that the audience comprised a higher proportion of Anti voters, who appear not to have adjusted their opinions as a consequence of hearing both sides’ arguments. You won - get over it.

[@SciFiGrinch]

@@1972hermanoben Nothing to get over, I was just making an observation on the moderation of the debate.

[@maralynmitchell8261]

@@SciFiGrinch Moderation with Dominic and Stella intow ? Hysterical remainers why don't they live in the Blessed Europe ? And leave us in peace. !!

[@xyleblack2545]

@@maralynmitchell8261 I would assume because they have a connection with their home country and it's culture. Seeing it harming itself in such a destructive way is probably a good reason for them attempting to inform people about the consequences.

[@Garcwyn]

How come Daniel Hannan is invited to these things is beyond belief

[@achapmaninhk]

Why?

[@nicholasnunhofer8501]

Why??

[@gianlucacorona6585]

@@nicholasnunhofer8501 "No one is talking about leaving the single market". Lol.

[@Garcwyn]

@@gianlucacorona6585 exactly. Should have been abundantly clear that the credibility of this guy is non-existent

[@adamgrimsley2900]

Lord Hannan...for what? It's incredible, then again Sir Gavin Williamson

[@DekkardBryon]

Amazing, a Lord criticising the Eu over a lack of democracy.

[@martycrow]

*A small reality check* - I am a Brit in SEAsia trying to promote trade links in certain key areas that are less capital intensive reflecting 80% of UK's economy - soft skills/soft power - such as education, training, standards, systems, IT regulation etc. Since Brexit (both the vote and the actual), UK Govt support for this type of work (organised, focussed and specific) has been declining. The local market has become sceptical of the UK - despite the market having a number of Commonwealth countries who were previously natural partners. More embarrasingly, Brits are now the butt of jokes and derision even at business-social events, while the EU reps are in confident display. Perhaps people in the UK are unaware of this and the diplomatic missions and trade delegations only feed back the good news, but frankly, it is grim.

[@susannehartl3067]

Of course they are unaware of it. Nobody reports it.

[@mogznwaz]

That’s called propaganda

[@sumguy835]

หยุดแตะต้องสาวประเภทสอง จะหยุดหัวเราะ เราตระหนักดีมากกว่าที่คุณคิด งี่เง่า

[@williamjohnston4666]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[@uingaeoc3905]

I see - so you are not doing your bit then? This business of being the but of jokes - strange that the European destination of choice from the FE in the things you mention is the UK.

[@dreampedaller2113]

Leavers still arguing using lies....

[@paulfulton7968]

bollocks brexit is a disaster

[@stemill1569]

"I'm rather be in a democratic country than in a multinational empire" ...isn't it Britain who is the wannabe empire?

[@geraldaird9390]

Daniel wasn't shoved into a den of lions, it was a den of liars. I noticed he has not mentioned his previous claim that it would be madness to leave the single market.

[@MrG.42]

Will Self was correct when he said "Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist, but everyone who was a racist, voted for Brexit!"

[@jedjones9047]

Will self is a raccist of the worst kind.

[@jayb9779]

Stella Creesey would be a wonderful PM of the UK. Sharp, Educated and provided DIRECT ANSWERS. Come on UK. Champion Stella Creesey for Labour leadership. Tanya Plibersek of Labour in Australia is similar to Stella Creesey. And we all know the wonderful PM of New Zealand - Jacinda Ardern. People need to wake up. Women are much more measured and talented than men when it comes to politics.

[@tobymaltby6036]

Priti Patel: exist. ...how does your arguement look now eh ??

[@fuchiaimperfect2093]

A lot of grandiose statements being made, but the crucial test is 'Has leaving benefitted ordinary people?' And the answer is 'NO' - not one bit. It was a confidence trick. Con artists are well-known for their persuasive speech. Hannan was a master at that, but he didn't fool me.

[@jamesdunn7564]

Just pointing out that Robert Tombs did a sneaky tactic of lying about Ursula von der Leyen in the middle of the other 2 accusations.

[@paullambert8183]

What lie? At least you should say what e lie is of you are going to comment

[@oldishandwoke-ish1181]

Lying seems to be a bit of a theme with Leave diehards.

[@jamesdunn7564]

@@paullambert8183 she was cleared of plagiarism. Just had a (very) poorly written dissertation.

[@jeromeh7985]

Inflation about twice higher in the UK than France nowadays ( October 22) look by yourself.

[@htlein]

how odd that the first speaker spent so much time on commentary about what WAS said, what WAS suggested as outcomes. People will always have views, many times wrong ones - surely the point to bring up is "what is happening now"?

[@sasserine]

And he avoids the fact, that those dire predictions didn't happen *because* measures were taken, to avoid them, or offset some of the damage. It's like the brain-donors, who claim the Millennium Bug was a hoax, ignoring the decade-long efforts, from software providers and IT departments in every company, pulling overtime, to examine seemingly endless lines of code, for potentially problematic instructions.

[@orbazel]

@@sasserine the problem is that the claims being made by the remain campaign never included ‘if measures aren’t taken’, they simply stated their dire predictions on us leaving. You’ll be hard pressed to find any claim, wether economic or cultural by remain that did at least try and give an honest prediction which factored in the knowledge that we could take measures against the scenarios they were talking about.

[@sasserine]

@@orbazel Doesn't alter the fact, that with the damage to the UK economy being less than some predictions, the people who warned of damage to the economy were *still* closer to the truth, than the people who lied that exiting the EU, and imposing sanctions on ourselves, would *improve* the economy. Leavers are strutting around, trying to get credit for the damage they inflicted being less than some predictions, as if that makes their damage acceptable.

[@orbazel]

@@sasserine a recession a week after the leave vote that would be greater than the 2008 global crisis was predicted by Osbourne, we’d lose all our European trade (even though article 50 clearly states that any member that leaves, leaves with the current trade with all EU nations intact) and we’d all be starving to death was predicted by Hessletine and a leave vote would lead to a new European war was predicted by Cameron. It’s really sad that people like yourself believed these absurd predictions to begin with but to then double down and try and say they were more right than the leave side is really pathetic. Do you even bother to consider that maybe a global pandemic which shut down the economies of many democratic nations may have played a role in our current economic situation or do you just ignore all that and just use the conditions it has created to try and get a shred of dignity back by pinning it all on the brexit decision? Seriously, no one is remembering the doom-mongering predictions by the remain side and actually, with a straight face, saying they were even close to being correct.....that is of course unless they’re to proud to admit that they were naively taken in by some of the most ridiculous scare tactics ever devised by politicians.

[@pyellard3013]

Some Remainers economic forecast that didn't (yet) come true. There was no Official Remain document making these predictions. We know Leavers made many claims for things to be better. Can't see any of those.. But I guess, as Mogg says, we need to wait 50 years...

[@steveworrell]

I wonder how this would have gone if this was done this week.

[@reddragon3163]

The harder the reality hits, the more concentrated the dose of gammon needs to be.

[@kevinwillis6707]

Hannan would still be spouting drivel, meanwhile, project reality is starting to dawn on the gammons..

[@glps6167]

None of the defenders of Brexit brought up what for the 350 million Pounds not paid to Brussels were spent.

[@drunkensailor112]

Definitely not to the nhs!

[@oaesan]

"I was told if I don't stop smoking, I won't live up to 30, now I'm 40, so I was right to continue smoking." Just because the worse case scenarios of Brexit did not materialise immediately doesn't mean they were wrong. It only meant the can could be kicked down the road.

[@Luna-nj9zd]

So lucky to be living i the EU where EVERYTHING is oodles better than in the UK.

[@larryleker6366]

If you have to publicize that you were right to do something despite all evidence to the contrary, there's a word for that: DENIAL. And you will suffer the consequences whether you like it or not.

[@whocares264]

Now we have less people in work Now we have High inflation Now we have a pound worth 20% less Now we have food wastage Now we have travel restrictions Now we have shortages Now we must trade with countries 10000 miles away Now we have worker shortages

[@monza10184]

it was a lie by Johnson to get elected FULL STOP thats all

[@rugbykiwi9]

unemployment is at the lowest it has ever been in 50 years you fool. Get your facts before commenting. So how can you say we have less people in work?

[@whocares264]

@@rugbykiwi9 unemployment is low, BUT there are less people in work, oh dear i am going to have to explain , people have taken early retirement , this is unsustainable , this is like talking to children.....

[@rugbykiwi9]

@@whocares264 please enlighten us on why employment is the lowest it has been in 50 years but less are working. Has there been a huge population decrease that no one knows about?

[@rugbykiwi9]

And let me talk about inflation. What about 1975, inflation was extremely high and uk had just joined the eu? In fact the inflation between 1975 and 1990 was on average higher than after we left the eu. You are embarrassing yourself here, please stop trying and go back to school.

[@brianmacadam4793]

So the UK leaves the EU and expects "a freindly ... . Say what ? A member quits the club and then expects the perks of membership ? A spouse leaves the marriage and wants conjugal benefits ?

[@tzazosghost8256]

Friendly isn't membership.

[@jakel8627]

"Of course I regret leaving the European Union as almost every educated person does... It's a calamity and a tragedy" Professor Richard Dawkins

[@georgebreakfast5890]

Blatantly untrue, but par for the course from "almost" everyone with acdemic tenure. You'll be telling me you're surprised he's a socialist next.

[@alexandrathrift6308]

Clever man but militantly agnostic Dawkins is too soulless of course he would be a remaoner

[@drakedouay1286]

My main "project fear" claim was that we'd move to the hard right politically because Brexit was a "gateway" to political extremists. This month we had Truss / Kwarteng / Braverman (who is still Home Secretary) but you won't hear any Brexiteers accepting that this is related to Brexit because they only flag up the predictions that were wrong, not the ones that were right.

[@marksavage1108]

do you actually know the difference between right and ``hard`` right? the right is politicians putting socialist structural laws in place, the hard right was Hitler murdering millions. so are you actually likening Truss Kwarteng and Braverman to Hitler, ?Then you ponder as to why your opposition think you are ignorant at best and insane at worst.

[@tompiper9276]

Project fear is looking more and more like project reality.

[@robtyman4281]

'Project Fear' has become Project Here. We reep what we sow. No one wants our meat and fish, because it's now too expensive for other countries to import; and the disruption to the supply chains of both our supermarkets AND our car industry (what little there is) have led ti empty shelves; and car manufacturers facing the prospect of closing UK factories down in order to get round the supply chain disruption and extra red tape. Jesus, Daniel Hannan's introduction was so cringeable. Blabbing on about Man City and Man Utd - I admit he'd lost me already at this point. I just rolled my eyes in disbelief. I'm not anti football, but it's not something you bring in to a serious debate about Brexit and the EU. He trivialised the topic instantly by his remark, and set the tone for the subsequent toxic waffle he delivered. Of course people like Hannan have alot to be happy about, and are no doubt benefiting from Brexit in ways that ordinary people simply are not. The whole thing is an absolute disaster for the UK. But people like Hannan don't really care.....as long as they can accrue some sort of financial benefit along the way.

[@Dreyno]

The third speaker is decidedly unfit to be a professor. Fact free nonsense. Hopefully he wasn’t as unhinged when he was teaching.