Irenaeus and the Fall of the Gnostics

Early Christianity included a wide diversity of beliefs on ideas as central as who Christ is and what is Jesus’ relationship with the Father to whom he prayed. Gnostic Christians focused their attention on personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) which they developed through elaborate philosophical mythologies. By the end of the Second Christian Century, bishops of the proto-orthodox establishment increasingly identified Gnosticism as a deadly “heresy,” which they sought to purge from Christianity. One of the figures leading the fight was Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon from 177 until his death in 202, who wrote a book entitled “Against Heresies” that was largely focused on combating Gnosticism.
In a presentation given from Lyon, France, John Hamer will look at the history and beliefs of the ancient Gnostics and consider why attacks by leaders like Irenaeus proved so effective.
Join the livestream to participate in the discussion and to ask questions to our lecturer during the Q&A.
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[@cpamacjd]

John is one of smartest individuals I have ever come across, his mind and memory are absolutely incredible

[@jeffkitson9565]

Yea the fact he is just casually strolling around reeling off all this top quality, and accurate, historical information unprompted is impressive. The guy has sure done his homework.

[@johnphelps9900]

I am glad to see John is now getting some steps in during his lectures

[@fastballflakes5385]

Who would have guessed that tonight was another fantastic Hamercopia of Knowledge? Thanks again to John and CentrePlace. The new intro is pretty boss.

[@rayneweber5904]

Anyone who owns a calendar. It's usually Tuesday. Its.. it's always Tuesday.

[@nathandouglas624]

​@rayneweber5904 whophner? Is it on a different day ❤😂 ?

[@marymagnuson5191]

Thanks to John and CenterPlace. I learn so much every time I listen to you. Love you guys.

[@georginashanti4605]

I appreciate you delivering this lecture whilst travelling. It's pure dedication I reckon. It's also lovely to travel vicariously whilst learning new information about early Christianity. Thank you kindly.

[@DrWolves]

Gnostic informant!! Legend. Of course he'd watch your program. It's top quality scholarship.

[@WayWalker3]

Thanks yet again to John and the crew at Centre Place, for another well researched and very interesting explanation of the world of early Christianity in its wider societal context.

[@paperback10]

I look forward to Hamertime all week!

[@samazwe]

I would love for John to be interviewed by Alex O'Connor someday....this is right in his ballpark and would bring a lot of new subscribers to the Center Place channel

[@donny_doyle]

I am all for that.

[@SynThenergy]

​@@donny_doyle That would be awesome! He would have the chops to handle any question well!

[@wjpperry1]

Cosmic Skeptic Rules!

[@otimistarj]

I wish congratulate you about the clear text ! I am brazilian an my english is not so good but with the legends/text I can understand 100% what you say. You pronunciation is really very good. Great job !!

[@erikhouston]

I must admit I haven’t been to church since I married my wife over 8 years ago. My faith in the resurrected Christ is still strong. I’ve had to develop a deeper sense of spirituality and faith to overcome depression, grief, substance dependence, and the sins of the flesh. I’m so glad I’ve discovered centre place. I’ve been able to learn and discover more insights both historical and ecumenical. Thank you John for putting out your great content

[@HamerToronto]

You're very welcome, thanks for sharing this.

[@DerekHowden]

@@HamerToronto Thanks from me too John, I trust and admire your historical take :-) peace

[@meditativehypnosen-dr.ho-oq7zq]

The core of Gnosticism is spiritual experience (which is not what Evangelicalism thinks about it). The intellectual arguments and ideas were developed to understand and build on this experience. For this enterprise they used what was available to them. They made many mistakes in this area, but this does not invalidate the core of Gnosticism.

[@nathandouglas624]

Evangelicals talk about the telescope, understand it, praise and polish it, guard it. BUT haven't used it to go into the deep and then know. You know?

[@No_Mormon_No_Cry]

Thanks for this new format! Looking forward to the next world adventures! Keep up the amazing work and programming.🎉

[@DavidSnodgrass-xd8li]

Love these lectures

[@emiliamartucci8291]

Thank you for this format that is so so so enjoyable. What a terrific idea. Thank you.

[@dmalane]

Wonderful lecture and beautiful backdrop, thank you!

[@maryhitchcock-nn1nm]

Wow. Brilliant from start to finish! Really looking forward to next week.

[@dbarker7794]

Learned a lot from the lecture and enjoyed seeing the streets of Lyon. Merci!

[@exoplanet11]

I like the new format! Thanks for staying up late for questions.

[@mabel7727]

Great lecture, informal, yet profound in detail and correlation. Thanks!

[@stephenowen6083]

Many thanks for another excellent lecture by John, althought it was nice to see Lyon I personally found it somewhat distracting and more difficult to focus on what John was saying, compared with the original format, indeed without the subtitles I would have been lost. Also I missed seeing the written notes that are in are in the original format. I wonder if footage of a city like Lyon could be included at the start of a video and John continues to gives the lecture in the original format.

[@DanHowardMtl]

Love the new format.

[@ztimbo]

I wonder what the gnostics would do with simulation theory? Sounds similar.

[@NicholasAggelopoulos]

Thank you for summing up Irinaeus and the Gnostics for us. Nice research and very informative.

[@letsrelaxwithtexts2114]

Very nice edition

[@undercoverbrother67]

Jesus asked, "where's Waldo?" And Waldo heard the call.

[@tiosurcgib]

What a fantastic lecture. And a lovely new format in situ in Lyon. Thankyou so much.

[@timdemoss3129]

Hey John. I am happy to hear your teachings about these very confusing theories. It really makes me wonder sometimes as to why the good lord would even bother with us.

[@jonathanguernsey7051]

You and everyone else will be happy to read about where the Gnostic realm stands and how it relates to Jesus, I’m currently writing and hope to have it out literally coming in the clouds of every nations philosophies. Love your video and transparency on the Gnostic realm, the truth is stranger than fiction!!

[@herjikolbrunarson8385]

Good soundquality.

[@TheSwircle987]

Big fan of your lectures, and I love the new format. It's super cool to see the places, at least as they are today, in which some of the subject matter occurred.

[@VSP4591]

Mulțumim!

[@wilderness4071]

Was I the only one who thought when he said "so many were in inspired to follow Waldo leading to the.. creation of the book series Where is Waldo?

[@brokinsage7138]

Let's hear about the beliefs of the cathars!

[@nathandouglas624]

I believe we need more like the cathars to form communities around the world. 💜

[@markangelagirard9944]

Great job. Center Place meets Rick Steves. Bravo!

[@rayneweber5904]

Except I don't think John smokes the pot

[@PermjitBir]

Thanks

[@centre-place]

Thank you for supporting the channel!

[@zoxeme]

loved the lecture, but miss a little bit the visual support, specially the timelines...

[@longcastle4863]

This channel is up there with Tabor and Ehrman in understanding the beginnings, development and early history of Christianity

[@marktwain5232]

Excellent! Very well done! Much appreciated!

[@canisronis2753]

Love this! Great scenery, great info, great production, cars coming, no problem, walking up steps easy peasey.

[@arthursmom]

Thank you this was amazing!❤

[@exoplanet11]

I'm delighted to learn that John Hamer of @CentrePlace was interviewed on @GnosticInformant I will have to look that up. I was hoping he would give interviews fo Neal and to Dereck L. of @Mythvision.

[@Brian-kr1pt]

Thank you!

[@Brian-kr1pt]

You should put these (image free) episodes out as podcast.

[@skinnyt1971]

I know John's a Pythonist, so he'll appreciate how I was imagining that during his excellent lecture, he might have suddenly fallen down a deep open drain mid-sentence: eg ... 'So we find that after IranaeaAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaassss.....' I love seeing the content delivered on-site. Ces magnifique.

[@timdemoss3129]

Thanks!

[@LayneCobain88]

Keep doing this!!

[@pettersonoliveira42]

Great video! Awesome lecture but very well directed too. At times the scenery seem to metaphorically synced with the lecture. All lectures should be outside lol

[@petergrimshaw492]

Great video thankyou. Watching with particular interest as to the birth of Islam in Arabia. The Koran uses stories from the Gospel of Thomas (clay birds brought to life) for example and several other non-orthodox Christian texts.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

That's Infancy Thomas, not the sayings gospel of Thomas being discussed here. The Gospel of Thomas (the sayings one) is one of the oldest gospels out there and may predate some of the canonical gospels. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is dependent on Matthew, Luke, and John, and is therefore a much later development.

[@petergrimshaw492]

@@andrewsuryali8540 Thankyou Andrew! I didn't realise. Ancient history often feels like a detective story, getting the right bits of a puzzle to fit in the right places ...

[@josepheridu3322]

Beautiful places 😍

[@zsdfafasdasdada1368]

nice video

[@kathrine266]

this is fantastic. most beautiful scenery. in fact, a bit difficult listening to the words. the city is just..perfect. but where are all the people?

[@andreucfreire1328]

Fantastic lesson.

[@tamjammy4461]

Ta folks. Hope you're enjoying France. If not....theres something wrong with you ! 😁. The new format was interesting. You must've been up early to get the streets so quiet. On a key nd of related note to gnosticism ( at least in my mind ) Id be interested in hearing John's take on the influence of astrology on Christianity ( and early Jewish ) thinking over time. Although modern Chritianity tends to reject it as "pagan" , its clear that it n earlier times this was not always the case . Having said that, its just a thought. Im sure you have plenty of other interesting topucs that you may prefer to concentrate on. Anyway, thanks again. Looking forward to the next installment Ps. Sorry I missed the live broadcast. Im not very good at checking my "notifications". Must try harder in future.

[@JohnDoe-bm8on]

John, you missed my question. When did mental egoic consciousness come into existence? Did the gnostics have anything to do with that?

[@centre-place]

@HamerToronto

[@HamerToronto]

Hi John Doe, sorry that I missed your question during the lecture. There is more than one stage in the development in the idea of self - the modern idea of self has undergone significant change since the enlightenment (as we are all more aware of the idea that the individual self develops, especially due to influences and factors in childhood, etc., which was essentially absent in Antiquity). But there was also a revolution in awareness of self in Antiquity, and in broad strokes this occurs during the religious reforms like the ancient Greek philosophers, and foundations of world religions like Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. In that sense, yes, the Gnostics like other early Christians are living in the context of this change of awareness and emphasis, and they are wrestling with understanding these questions: Who am I? What am I? How do we relate to the universe? Is there meaning in life?

[@meditativehypnosen-dr.ho-oq7zq]

No, absolutely not.

[@nathandouglas624]

People became aware of conciseness in conciseness to become gnostic or not. That's another one of those "no one knows the hour or day " things. 💜

[@dorotakorsak3107]

Maybe you could do it in local time when you are in Europe, so for a moment it could be convenient to your listeners from this part of the world. I miss the possibility to interact with you in real time 😊

[@HamerToronto]

We might be able to do that next trip. We're trying not to have too many changes all at once as we don't want to disrupt the audience. However, it's our plan to have trips and lectures like this every year going forward.

[@2011redplanet]

Where are the people ??

[@didfet5496]

What is fascinating about Christianity is this blending of jewish tradition and greek thinking and the big question is how are they balanced. In the 21st century lots of Christians still denigrate the body and the physical world although the teaching of Jesus almost entirely revolves around his body and resurrection…

[@michaellegrand5776]

Will you be in France in September ? I have been watching your lectures for more than a year now. Would be delighted to meet.

[@HamerToronto]

We are heading back to Canada on September 5

[@GodwardPodcast]

how does he even do this?? walking around quoting the Apocryphon of John from memory?

[@Facerip]

Tip from an audio engineer: Add a de-esser or lower the highest register in the EQ to get rid of the cutting ”S”-noises in a microphone like you’re using. Makes it hard to listen to in headphones otherwise

[@joshuapena6757]

Holy crap. Is he doing all this from memory?

[@exoplanet11]

Looks like it. Perhaps w/ some prep. It shows that not having prepared notes and slides can sometimes lead to a fresher more off-the-cuff feel. (Though I do love Hamer's graphs & timelines)

[@nosuchthing8]

Doubtful.

[@Rannsack]

Hi! I like this new format, very fun. Great sound quality. It's interesting that everyone who talks about Gnostics tries to imply they view the world as a "prison". In fact, the world the gnostics believe in is IDENTICAL to the world of Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, and Islam. We live in a fallen world. All the Abrahamic religions agree we live in a fallen world. There is 100% agreement on this. So the only debate is, what caused it? The mainstream believe we are in a fall world because adam and eve ate a fruit from a tree they were told not to. The Gnostics believe we live in a fallen world because it was created by a flawed being. That's the question. And it always amusing to me how every single person who talks about Gnosticism always frames the debate incorrectly.

[@marktwain5232]

The major Cosmic insight is that we are all now on a Planet of total complete idiots who stumble from second to second in the Nuclear Age. It is fascinating.

[@sparrowthesissy2186]

As a non-believer interested in this stuff, I think one topic you might explore is the overlap between these kinds of Gnostic works with Kabbalah. I think they try to deal with the problem of evil in fairly similar ways, by having an unknowable and amoral entity at the top, making several forces/spirits below it which have competing interests and different abilities or domains, in typical polytheistic fashion. Otherwise, benevolent monotheism has the problem of a morally perfect being creating many beings of lesser morality, which shouldn't be possible. A benevolent monotheism with the first creations being capable of evil just doesn't logically follow, in my opinion. Arguably, an evil but incompetent creator could make a cosmos that some good incidentally emerges from, which I think is a closer match to our universe which is nearly 100% deadly to us in every direction. But again, that's to concede the possibility of a cosmos creator at all, which I don't think has been demonstrated. Fun vid, and I do envy your info dump prowess. One day I hope to achieve such levels. 👍

[@Andrew-pv8oz]

Got my snacks and pants to ankles I’m ready for this treat

[@Jussaynoh]

One of the only places where I disagree with the unrivaled brilliance of Schopenhauer is in his curt dismissal of the so called gnostics. They deserve credit for being on the right track, religiously speaking. Unlike the outright monstrosity of orthodoxy.

[@realadamhouse]

Hi John do think in the secret gospel of John when retreats to the mountain that could be an illusion to the abomination desalation jesus speaks about in the gospels? Jesus told his followers when they see it to flee to the mountains.

[@chimpychimp4921]

The walking thing didn't quite work. Made me kind of motion-sick and seemed to make John out of breath while walking and talking.

[@tawneenielsen4080]

I am still very sorry what my church did to yours. We owed you the money and should have let you keep the buildings. My deepest apologies.

[@nathandouglas624]

Hey, Brother. Look and see.... perhaps a push out of comfort is what is needed for stellar Rize 💜 Negative must not be preserved. Perhaps understand and transform the 💔 to 💜 ?

[@cskandrsgyrgy]

12:24 "People still try to find Atlantis, although Atlantis is a myth that Plato created out of nothing." Scholars 1000 years from now: "People still try to find the wreck of the Titanic, although the Titanic is a myth that James Cameron created out of nothing."

[@adriennepatterson6113]

Wow great production on the road! But plato said Atlantis was a real place...

[@carlharmeling512]

Problem is, the Early Church Fathers destroyed everything they could get their hands of the Gnostic’s writings and what is known about them is only what they who hated them wrote about them. It was certainly those with knowledge of Christ who wrote the primal Gospel. What the name Gnostic means is knowledge which is what those involved in the early pursuits of an orthodox tyranny were most afraid of; working like the devil literally to make a cohesive political movement out of a religious doctrine of mental health. The Kingdom of Heaven is just the pursuit of mental health in its totality.

[@jjcole6544]

It sounds almost as if the camera’s mic is blended with the clip on mic.

[@midnightwatchman1]

Also, what is evidence that Plato believed his stories were allegories and that he completely made them again he could have been drawing from older myth and legend. I am not saying they are true, but Plato may have believed they were true.

[@hesedagape6122]

Apostle = Shaliah = Bishop Prophet = Nabi = Presbyter Teacher = Rabbi= Deacon The Early Church had a Jewish heirarchy. The Apostles wrote each other and so did their successors. A modern Bishop is wha the Early Church called an Apostle. He thus was itenerant and writing until the 4th century brought territorial Bishops and later the Dioceses became larger. This is what prevented Gnosticism from gaining traction. Episcopal/Apostolic Churches are notoriously difficult to change.

[@KeithFail2]

I wonder whether Jesus was an awakened (mystic) person? The idea of special knowledge is not really about thinking and beliefs, Rather, it is about the personal experience of direct connection to G-d. Later Christian mystics seem to have had this experience, but did Jesus?

[@midnightwatchman1]

what is the evidence that the apostle John did not write the gospel of John. it has the most personal details than any other gospel. it is interesting the earliest physical copy of the New Testament is a fragment of P52 of the gospel of John dated 125 -175 AD. and it looked pretty well used. it and there is no reason not to push authorship much later

[@nosuchthing8]

Evidence he did NOT write it? Can you prove you didn't kill someone?

[@midnightwatchman1]

@@nosuchthing8 yes I can provide "reasonable" proof that I did not murder someone. There is no dead body in my apartment, and I have no motive. So why would you randomly think I murdered someone? Nothing in life works that way. if every document near or close to period we have says that the gospel of john is written by the apostle John why you would suddenly decide that John did not write it. Same with the autobiographies of Julius Caesar, no one says Caesar did not exist. it is not a reasonable position.

[@steverational8615]

While I find this all very interesting there are a lot of claims unsupported by any references to scholarly works. For example, the claim that scholars do not consider the books in the NT attributed to John to have actually be written by John is simply false. There is plenty of NT scholars who provide evidence for John’s authorship of both his gospel text and his letters.

[@charlesiragui2473]

Did James the Brother of the Lord (aka James the Just) really maintain a Christianity in which kosher and circumcision were required? We have evidence from Josephus that he was a highly respected Jew in Jerusalem until his killing in 62AD. Galatians (written around 50AD) also indicates that Peter felt caught between his support for Paul's mission to the Gentiles and James' insistence on the Mosaic Law (no eating with Gentiles). However, we also have the strong evidence of Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem, where James presided and ruled that Paul's teaching would be followed: circumcision was not needed (and by implication food restrictions and other Torah requirements weren't either). This was obviously within the lifetime of James (died 62AD) and Paul (68AD). The traditional dating of the Council is 49AD. This implies that James had endorsed the relaxation of Jewish Law for the followers of Christ. The Ebionites (Jewish Christians who rejected the divinity of the Messiah Jesus and probably had a Hebrew Gospel) would apparently be a splinter group that refused to accept this verdict.

[@PeterDobbing]

“Irenaeus and the persecution/obliteration of the Gnostics”?

[@nathandouglas624]

Heaven running out of soles? Could the infertility concerns in the world be a sign of this???💜

[@ericokane8136]

👉🏼TRUTH is OBJECTIVE, meaning that it is NOT based on the perceptions of human beings (which is capable of wavering). TRUTH is simply THAT WHICH IS. It is that which has occurred in the past and that which is occurring in the present. 👉🏼"The Truth is belligerent in that it wages war against all forms of deception and mind control." - belligerent: inclined to or exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, or combativeness Merriam-Webster Dictionary "Truth and Falsehood went bathing, Falsehood finished first and dressed in Truth's clothes, and Truth, refusing to take Falsehood's clothes, went naked." - Author Unknown

[@charlesiragui2473]

The Monad as it presents itself in the Apochryphon of John (I am the Father, the Mother, the Son) brings to mind the condemnation in the Quran of the Three, making a mother and son "associates" of Allah. This putatively anti-trinitarian passage is surprising as it would misidentify the Trinity of Nicene Christianity (and even Arian Christianity): the Virgin Mary is not part of the Trinity. To make sense of this seeming mistake, some have suggested that Muhammad mistook the theology of the imperial Church, with its validation of Marian veneration. (Alternatively, this could be Allah condemning the same: they have made Mary and Jesus gods with me.) However, the influence of apocrypha (and the Talmud) on the Quran seems clear and repeated, an influence generally stronger than from the Bible itself, despite frequent references in the Quran to the Torah and the Gospel. This strong affinity for these non-canonical sources makes an influence from the Apochryphon of John reasonable to contemplate.

[@zsdfafasdasdada1368]

learn what an aeon is gl escaping satans universe

[@wordscapes5690]

Fall? More like a push.

[@HearTruth]

Lyon Lion El Yon Only

[@sebolddaniel]

Gnostic informant is funny. I wonder if "the son of man" didn't first appear in Enoch and not Daniel,

[@mrswilbert]

Gnostics were right

[@coliv2]

Gnosticism is an invented label as everything you say here also applies in some way to the so called orthodox church. There is less difference between the Orthodox Church and its gospels than people believe. In reality, gnostics were the actual church, until a group of politicians based in Rome took control of the movement.

[@zsdfafasdasdada1368]

demons dont know jesus only gnostics do.

[@nathandouglas624]

They know, they want their own way they will not follow ❤

[@user-xd4rs6vr4n]

Jraneaus was the real heretic

[@joestar6194]

Nice legs 😂

[@MrYerathrall]

Your assumption that Atlantis was nothing more than myth that Plato constructed to demonstrate his powers of storytelling is just as groundless as the assumption that Atlantis is a legend with a basis in real history. However, your assertion that the flood accounts from Genesis that originated in the sumerian Enuma Elish is mythical with no historical basis that can be factually verified is wholly erroneous. This is because the exact location where the 'ark' of Utnapishtem (aka Noah) ultimately ran aground when the waters of the flood finally began to ebb is documented in the oldest map of the world found in ancient cuneiform text by Dr. Irving Finkel. So please cease your constant mythical assignation of these stories to the realm of fiction and go do some more research if you find you aren't up to date on the fact that all of these ancient biblical sites where impossible events "supposedly occured" are now finally being uncovered and investigated. And the truth is, as propoganda-filled as the old testament is, it still documents actual paranormal events happening at that time like Sodom and Gomorrah and the 'ufo' encounters of Ezekiel better than most any other document. And if you dare to combine the information relayed in the book of Genesis with what the Books of Enoch tell us about the origins of the 'fallen angels" and how they brought metallurgy and makeup with them down from heaven to share with the primitive human tribes, you wind up with quite the fascinating account of the origins of all humanity.