Is Agnosticism a Cop-Out? Exploring Consciousness w/ Alex O'Connor | Soul Boom Clips

Is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? Alex O'Connor (‪@CosmicSkeptic‬) joins Rainn Wilson to ponder whether love, beauty, or deep human connection point to something beyond the material world. The two explore the nature of belief, the mystery of consciousness, and whether experience itself is the ultimate proof of the divine. Are we more than just neurons firing in our brains? And if so… what does that mean for God?
FULL EPISODE: • Alex O'Connor Explores...
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#SoulBoom #AlexOConnor #Atheist #atheism #ExistenceOfGod #Philosophy #Spirituality #Consciousness #ScienceAndReligion #Surrounded #Jubilee #debates #religiousdebates

[@jessefrye2420]

2:27 Underrated Jordan Peterson impression

[@thestrangelightbulb7300]

I was dying when he did that

[@quackygg]

the fact i instantly understood who he was mocking

[@mulatso7959]

The infamous octopus trombone

[@ivanbohatov2072]

Hilarious 😭

[@ErnestoConfused]

I'd like to think the JP reference was lost on Rainn. Bro was just like "Is this dude Alex having a stroke?"

[@KllswtchOvrDrv]

The hand gestures killed me 😂

[@1tribenut]

I noticed it.

[@dvmpld9103]

Alex is one of the most enjoyable people to watch. His analogies, his rich repertoire in these deep matters and the lack of ego getting in the way of his thinking is to be praised. And I must say, I think he can only get better by experience. Though he is clearly a very proficient thinker and debater, he is still quite young. It kind of creates a funny effect when Rainn tells about a deep experience he had and Alex responds with a quote from a book. This is no criticism, but simply to point that even with all his knowledge, Alex has the opportunity to make himself an ever better philosopher (better human-being in general too) if he makes the most of his life in whatever way he finds wise.

[@Tyler-hk4wo]

Oh god the Jordan Peterson impression was hilarious by Alex. That killed me.

[@sovstte]

Loved this! A very honest and open discussion between two caring persons. The greatest takeaway I got from this was their humanity shining through. In that sharing of humanity perhaps "God" is revealed. Thank you both.

[@SoulBoom]

So glad you found it insightful! 🙏

[@mattdearringer430]

It's not that agnosticism is a copout or that atheism implies a higher degree of certainty. There are two problems: that people misuse these terms and that the terms are insufficient. Alex kind of gets at this. For the first part, I'll reference Dr. Bart Ehrman, who was the first person I heard to call himself an "agnostic atheist." He explains that one term is about *knowledge* and the other term is about *belief*. They're distinct concepts and we should be clear which we're discussing and not confuse the two. His perspective is that we almost definitionally can't KNOW whether God exists (thus his agnosticism), but that I doesn't BELIEVE one does. Two very different things. The second problem is insufficient terminology. These are black and white terms, but they concepts they define are not. There's so much possible gradations and nuance for both. For example, while I also consider myself an agnostic atheist, here's my full position: KNOWLEDGE: I think its VERY likely that the existence of a God is unknowable, but I have to have some epistemic humility even for that assertion. There's obviously a *chance* its knowable, but that I'm just unaware of the mechanism to investigate that knowledge. An unknown unknown. BELIEF: I believe its highly unlikely that a God exists, particularly not the type of God expressed by the world's major religions. But I also understand that as any other human, I'm chock-a-block with cognitive biases and psychological quirks. I don't really think people should trust any their own opinions completely. So again, room for epistemic humility. Acknowledgment of the limits of of my own thinking. So, you can think of both concepts probabilistically and with all kinds of internal argumentation and nuance. But we only have two terms and people conflate them conceptually. So we all end up talking over each other and past each other.

[@mattdearringer430]

(So, to my ear, Alex is also an agnostic atheist*, but perhaps where I believe the probability of God is, say, .03%, for my idiosyncratic reasons, maybe he thinks its 2.5% for his own idiosyncratic reasons. *Of course, people can and should be able to self-identify as they wish, my point, again is that agnosticism and atheism are two different categories, not tiers of one category. And also, that the current terminologies of skepticism are just unsatisfactory for all the many degrees and nuances of doubt.)

[@gravitheist5431]

There is a lot there , I had to laugh when you said there is a lot of conflation and people talking past each other because of definitional differences, you're right about this, people can't agree what or who God is , If I said God isn't a who but a what, some people will understand what I mean and some people will think I'm the embodiment of evil, my conclusion is that it depends on what set of axiom people filter their actions through. Ill have to check out Dr. Bart Ehrman

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

Ehrman is a great guy. I love his content.

[@GameTimeWhy]

I would go a step further saying everyone is agnostic because yeah, if you did know as a theist then it wouldn't be faith.

[@gravitheist5431]

@ lol

[@Kalai235]

Your conversation reminds me of how philosophy was debated by the orthodox and heterodox Schools of Indian Philosophy. Indian philosophy employs a framework called pramanas (valid sources of knowledge) that different schools accept or reject as the basis for each of their epistemologies. These pramanas are perception/inference/testimony/analogy/postulation/non-perception. Depending on how many of these pramanas you accept you can arrive at many different conclusions. You can go from atheism and hedonism of the carvaka school which views perception as the only pramana to vedanta which accepts all 6 pramanas.

[@TwoTreesVisuals]

This is absolutely beautiful.

[@rhettdiessner]

Great food for thought in this interview. Sometimes I sort of think of myself as an agnostic even though I believe in God. Because God seems unknowable. Whatever we think God is, we are wrong, God transcends anything that we can think of or feel or attribute... Of course, I may be wrong about that.

[@Floatyyy]

Honestly the best kind of theist, one that can separate their logic and faith. There's nothing wrong with having faith in the unknown especially if you have your own experiences that lead you to do it but I think it's also cool to not get that confused with 100% knowing as like a fact

[@acquadiamore]

Love this so much 💛

[@SoulBoom]

we 💛 YOU

[@ramigilneas9274]

People who criticize Agnostics always seem to misunderstand what that actually means, primarily because believers always seem to think that there are only two options: Their God exists or no Gods exist. But obviously it’s possible to be absolutely certain that the abrahamic God does not exist and at the same time be open to the possibility that there is a higher power or a deistic type of God. And people always seem to forget that all of the good arguments for the existence of God don’t have anything to do with Christianity or any other specific God concept, so even if I would accept all of them, that wouldn’t automatically make me a member of any of the established religions.

[@klla_km]

You are forgetting that there are no "good" arguments for God. If there were, logical people would be easily converted without a religious experience.

[@ramigilneas9274]

@ Sure, I also think that there aren’t any arguments for the existence of God that aren’t inherently flawed in some way or even fallacious. But there are definitely arguments that are better than others. And the better ones don’t get you anywhere near to the conclusion that any of the current religions are true, at best it might get you to some weak form of Deism. Generally I would say that the more specific claims a religion makes that can be shown to be false the easier it is to dismiss them. That’s why it’s so obvious that none of the abrahamic religions can be true.

[@maximix5447]

How can you be absolutely certain that the abrahamic god doesn't exist. Do you have any deductive argument that disproves such a god. I don't think there is one. So even though everything points towards there being no god, there is always a small chance that it could exist. Most atheist share that view, but I still think that saying that you are an agnostic is a cop-out. At the end of the day, most religious people also can't say with 100% certainty that their god exists. So we can either all run around calling ourselves agnostics or say this is the worldview that best explains the world and own up to it.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 4:32. In addition to understanding a father sacrificing his son, first time parents often understand another truth. They will forgive their parents for any perceived negative acts committed against them. It is as if parenthood brings about a greater understanding of why our parents did what they did in raising us.

[@SoulBoom]

Wow, well said. 👏

[@Sheer-i-Zheeaan]

1:48 It’s ultimately unknowable, which means that, by definition, all Baha’is are agnostic-even if we don’t realize it. But the ‘Baha’i’ aspect makes us what you might call ‘gnostic agnostics.’ In Persian, this concept is known as Irfan, which refers to recognizing a deeper understanding beyond the surface level of reality. Baha’u’llah repeatedly emphasized the unknowability of the Divine, stating that the ‘essence’ of God is beyond human comprehension. This aligns with the philosophical definition of agnosticism-the idea that the ultimate reality (whether called God or something else) is beyond human knowledge. At the same time, the Baha’i teachings emphasize that we can gain recognition of spiritual truths, not through direct knowledge of the essence of God (or even the essence of our own soul) but through reflection on the physical and mental/emotional world, the teachings of Manifestations, and deep contemplation. This is where Irfan comes in-a Sufi and Baha’i concept referring to mystical knowledge or inner recognition of reality. It’s not knowledge in the empirical sense but an awareness of deeper, interconnected truths. So, in a way, Baha’is are both agnostic and gnostic-we acknowledge the limits of human understanding while also affirming that deeper insights can be gained through spiritual perception.

[@t99709]

Im agnostic and I think there’s more to our dreams than we know

[@tl7988]

Perhaps to be able to acknowledge “I don’t know” is to invite the mystery in.

[@stephenholmgren405]

Curiosity, humbleness and honesty is are my trinity

[@SoulBoom]

love this

[@ItsSleepyxo]

I had a child, therefore I know what God is. Got ya.

[@ComradeSam_617]

As an atheist, i just find mythology to be interesting. Keep up the interesting work you guys 🖤

[@SoulBoom]

thanks for being here! 🙏 🦄

[@joewoodhead2712]

What’s interesting about the blue part, even after reading about it… then stepping outside to see blue… would she even know it was blue? 8:16

[@steve_____K307]

Of course it is completely legitimate to admit “I don’t know if God exists”, but we know that Alex and Rainn would (rightfully) agree that we can indeed know that if God does exists He/She/It certainly is not the God as depicted by Islam, Mormonism, or any of the Christian varieties on offer. That should be crystal clear as made obvious by a close study of each of their [Holy?] books, each incompatible with the others, and each deceptively claiming to be the Word of God.

[@georgeg5797]

Hahahaha! Love 2:29

[@SoulBoom]

😅

[@nooder1927]

That Jordan Peterson impression made me crack up! And not everyone will know what he's referencing lol

[@CanaanZhou2002]

I saw it and went straight to the comment section. Not disappointed.

[@jedsithor]

Yes. Yes it is. It's like saying you don't know if electromagnetism exists. There's an infinitesimal possibility that electromagnetism doesn't exist, that every measurement, equation, experiment and piece of technology built from the study of electromagnetism (like the device I'm typing this on and the device you're reading it on) is all some kind of cosmic illusion that could fall apart at any moment. But the probability of that is so close to zero that it might as well be zero.

[@brandontaylor3252]

Christians always ask the most strange questions without even realizing it. " Have you ever felt love towards a family member?" is a pretty insane thing to ask another human being. That's almost as dumb a question as "what stops you from stealing old women's purses in the street?". The idea that atheism preclude normal feelings is pretty messed up and makes me question the thought process of any Christian that asks it.

[@rustyavacado9194]

I'm agnostic cause I will forever be curious..my heart yearns for something this world dosnt have..but I refuse to believe the God we know is loving....all the innocent suffering, the horror of the animal kingdom and unanswered prayers....if he is real he will reveal himself to me and answer my questions

[@SoulBoom]

Appreciate this perspective. 💛

[@GameTimeWhy]

Everyone is agnostic. Its whether you believe in the God proposition or not makes you theist (and religion) or atheist.

[@loomismeister]

If someone asks you if you are either an atheist or a theist, it is absolutely a cop out to say agnostic. It’s unresponsive to the question. You are agnostic, great! So is everyone. Now do you believe in god or not?

[@Oscar_AH]

I am myself a spiritual atheist

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

People will sometimes be dismissive of those who ask the definition of “god,” but I think it’s a legitimate question. There’s really no single definition that’s consistently used. I think that people often forget that the Western monotheistic concepts of what “god” means are not the only ones. Not to mention that even amongst monotheists and even amongst people who identify themselves as being of the same religion, we often get very different definitions of the word “god.” That’s my issue with agnostic types who make a point of saying that we can’t know if a god exists, because the things is: it can’t actually be treated as a legitimate question to be speculated upon when there’s no unanimous agreement about what the word even means. Due to the semantical nuances, I don’t think it’s a legitimate question in and of itself. However, there are more specific ideas called “God” or “gods” and some of these ideas are unambiguous enough that it’s a legitimate question to ask if it’s real. In regards to the most popular concepts I’ve encountered, I’m not agnostic about it, rather I would take a strong atheist position due to the improbability of the ideas.

[@GameTimeWhy]

Just a point of contention here, atheism and theism are whether you believe in the God concept or not. Agnostic is not having knowledge of it existing. Everyone is agnostic.

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

@@GameTimeWhy I know that’s what theism, atheism, and agnosticism are. I never said that’s not what they are. But while to be an atheist does not contradict being an agnostic, “strong atheist” which is the term I used, does mean that you aren’t agnostic. Furthermore, I would contest your claim that we are all agnostic, at least depending on what concept of “god” you are claiming we are agnostic about. Can you please define for me what the word “god” means to you, because depending on your definition I may not agree that we are all agnostic.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj strong atheist is still agnostic as you literally have no knowledge of whether or not any god exists or not. I don't either. The specific definition of any god doesn't matter for the most part. Prove the Christian god doesn't exist. Now do Brahma and Vishnu. Then do Buddha. You can't because of the very nature of the god claims. I don't believe any of them and some, like triomni god, is impossible by our logic but that's not a knowledge claim. A being beyond all understanding could still exist while breaking all logic and physics. I don't believe it though until I have evidence.

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

@@GameTimeWhy So, let me get this straight. You are unsure whether or not an all knowing being exists, but certain that I don’t know whether or not such a being exists? How is it that you think it’s possible that there’s a being that knows *everything* but not possible that *I or any other person* know the answer to *this one thing?* If you’re open to the possibility that there is something which knows *everything,* then you should also equally be open to the possibility that there’s a person who knows the answer to *this one thing.*

[@GameTimeWhy]

@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj easy. Prove it. We have no evidence and therefore no reason to think anyone has knowledge of any specific god existing especially when you have a religion based on faith, belief without evidence, it seems pretty unlikely. Sure someone might have knowledge but then again I would need evidence to believe that. Anyways, without having actual knowledge of a god existing you are agnostic. If you could prove that you have knowledge of a god existing that would be pretty incredible. So far nobody has done it.

[@giuseppesavaglio8136]

If not knowing a god/s exist is a cop out then how can knowing a god/s exist acceptable?

[@nenadblagov]

There's a typo in the thumbnail. It's not athiest, it's atheist.

[@erinmobley168]

Agnosticism is 100% a cop out if the question is "do you believe in a god". This is because agnosticism addresses claims of knowledge and not belief. I someone asks if you believe in a god, and you use the word agnostic, you have not answered the question.

[@Qaboom]

Say you have a box. You tell me you have placed a ball in the box. You provide no other details and ask me what color do I believe the ball is. The most honest answer I can give is "I don't know." I don't see how that's a cop-out, given my lack of information pertinent to forming beliefs regarding the color of the ball. Is this a fair analogy?

[@prestonbacchus4204]

The best state of mind is nothing.

[@crimsonpsyphi7196]

I'm still a little disappointed that Alex expects to be able to "see blue" in a person's brain if you cut it open. Why would you expect to see "blue"? What is it you're expecting to find when you cut open the brain to "see blue"? If you're looking for something other than a pattern of neurons firing, you won't get it because that's what the experience of blue is (a specific pattern in your brain of neurons firing that you're brain experiences as "blueness". It's kind of like those old signs that are just a series of lightbulbs that are either on or off where if you look at a single bulb you just see it turning on and off but when you look at the overall pattern of lightbulbs turning on and off you can see the message. "Seeing blue" is the pattern, not the lightbulbs.

[@MarkPatmos]

Does Rainn believe prisons should at all exist if believes God can only be about all-forgiving love? Hell does seem extreme according to a narrow understanding of what it is, most likely unknowingly from Dante’s inferno and various background assumptions that do to some extent exist in Bible.

[@ryanwilmes9732]

‘At a heist’

[@ryanwilmes9732]

Thought of Michael, Andy, and You in a Trinitarian standoff! (Quad before Pam bails)

[@mulatso7959]

For the thumbnail guy, it's "atheist" not "athiest"

[@LeroyMustang]

Most “atheists“ aren’t actually atheists. It’s a label, so accuracy is important. Most atheists will plainly state that their atheism is simply one result, of many, of their rational skepticism. Much like an art restorer who only paints during art restoration calling themselves a “painter“ it is a ridiculous title. One might say “irreligious” or “rationalist” at least these would be accurate titles. Also it’s a racist term, many religions do not have gods like Buddhism, ancestor worship, animism, mysticism, and indigenous traditions. By claiming atheism we inadvertently legitimize western monotheism as the only legitimate religion and that is not just to other cultures.

[@DefinitelyNotFX]

Hey man, you raise a good point about Eurocentric views on theism, but I do want to point out that Buddhism has a large pantheon of gods that are tightly interwoven with its cosmology. Similarly, many ancestor worshipping religions have ways in which ancestors can ascend to godhood, for example if they receive enough support somehow or if their actions in life were particularly magnanimous. That aside it's absolutely true that many discussions on theism sort of ignore some of the major world religions and assume monotheism as a default, but this is in part because the monotheistic view has a more discussable truth claim. Polytheist religions are not bothered by the problem of evil in many cases for example, and neither are ancestor worshipping religions. So from that perspective it makes sense to focus on the more incredible claims like an all-good all-loving and all-powerful singular god.

[@silverfire01]

No agnosticusm is not a cop out. Its saying i cant say its impossible for there a god. Its saying there is no verifiable evidence. Unless someone comes up with any other than assuming an old book is true then that would be my position as well. to me relugion is a cop out. You dont understand how something was created ,works so immediately go to a god without looking for other explanations.

[@michelangelope830]

Se como acabar la guerra y necesito tu ayuda. Soy un psicólogo y ayudo a sobrevivir. Para sobrevivir estés donde estés todos tienen que saber Dios existe. Si crees en Dios y no sabes Dios existe es porque te quieren ignorante para engañarte y hacerte daño. Dios existe porque lógicamente es imposible la existencia de la creación o finitud sin el creador o infinitud. Lo que tiene un principio de existencia tiene una causa porque de la nada no puede ser creado algo algo. Realidad es creada por realidad. La realidad es eterna, siempre existió algo. Lógicamente es imposible un número infinito de causas, luego tiene que existir una primera causa eterna no causada que creó lo que tiene un principio de existencia. Spinoza descubrió hace siglos Dios es todo lo que existe y la humanidad todavía no lo sabe. Dios es para todos igual y tu vida es tu infierno y cielo eterno. Dios vive mientras exista vida. Dios conoce su creación. Dios se creó a si mismo. Dios creó su propia Vida y Muerte. Dios creó la vida para vivir. Para entender Dios existe tienes que entender la falacia lógica atea. El ateísmo es una falacia lógica que asume Dios es la idea religiosa del creador de la creación y concluye erróneamente el creador no existe porque una idea particular de Dios no existe. El ateísmo es una falacia lógica que asume Dios es "papá celestial" y concluye erróneamente el creador no existe porque una idea particular de Dios no existe. Para superar una censura la información que se prohibe tiene que ser compartida para que se conozca. Tu entendimiento es tu salvación. ¡Emergencia!, niños inocentes y vulnerables mueren en guerras absurdas. Gracias.

[@marie6226]

First

[@SoulBoom]

welcome, #1 👏

[@ozzyalbor8292]

listening to rain is painful..........he seems delusional.

[@Truth.n.Love.is.God.BCatholic.]

Agnosticism is the same as Schrodingers cat. It’s a cop out unless you’re less than 18 years old or uneducated. God’s existence is a yes or no belief. I expect it will take time to develop a belief but until you do formulate one on your own, Pascal’s wager would be the most reasonable position of belief.