Is Arcade Hardware WORTH IT?! Reviewing CAVE Shoot Em' Up Arcade PCBs

[@TheElectricUnderground]

*Update* Turns out my camera settings were a bit off and that the input lag for the arcade machines was 2 frames rather than 1, but still 2 frames is delightfully responsive :-)

[@FuZZbaLLbee]

It’s so beautiful, seeing all those cave shmups on those original machines.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It really is!

[@tournaline3448]

Mark, as someone with such a deep understanding of game mechanics and a true appreciation of game design, it makes me happy to know that you finally played these games on the original hardware. Living in Tokyo, I’m lucky to have access to most shmups that I want to play. Even if I bought home conversions of games, I would still find myself drawn to the arcade cabinets and I could never truly put my finger on why. Thanks to your lag test, I think I’ve finally found the answer. I’m guessing I speak for a lot people here when I say that I truly appreciate all the vids you put out. Thank you!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

What an awesome comment tournaline! Yes there is something really special playing on the original hardware on the cabs, I also think getting people together playing together on the cabs is even better! It's really cool to look over Jaimers shoulder as he gets a ddp 2 all ha

[@julianseph842gamez5]

Wing Force is a cancelled ATLUS shmup from 1993 which never got into Arcade salons, but then, someone found the only existing PCB of the game and dumped it so that it can be played on MAME.

[@Latin00032]

When did this happen? Is it good?

[@99konondrums]

​@@Latin00032 I've played it in MAME, it's pretty mediocre if you ask me. But it's easy to download and play if you want.

[@julianseph842gamez5]

@@99konondrums I once managed to get a 1-ALL clear with 30hz Rapid fire and only died once against the Stage 5 boss. Jaimers once got a 2-ALL clear without Rapid fire.

[@99konondrums]

@@julianseph842gamez5 Definitely one of the easiest arcade shmups I've ever played. I think I made it to stage 4 or 5 on my first attempt.

[@nahucirujano]

Man, all those Cave PCBs together... absolutely beautiful. Got to say, it's a little sad to see so few people. But we know for sure they all really enjoyed it. Damn, wish I could be there.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

A lot of the shots in the vid are during setup on day 1, so don't you worry more people started filling the venue later in the event :-) the fighting game guys were having a ton of fun ha

[@NLSagat]

@@TheElectricUnderground As an enjoyer of both shmups and fighting games, and wanting to visit a friend in spain i def would have loved to be there, unfortunately family plans meant it was not to be. Would have liked to seen both you and my fellow country man Jaimers irl as well! Oh well maybe next year!

[@lunaria_stg]

I just want to say it looks glorious having all those arcade cabs running CAVE shmups next to each other! I wish I will have the chance to see this scene for myself one day.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It really was a cool experience, I absolutely recommend seeing some cabs in person if you get the chance.

[@riggel8804]

Crts have very different looks depending on a variety of factors but there is nothing exclusive to arcade crts vs consumer or pro crts. Arcade crts tend to be middle of the road crts that output rgb. You can get the same look out of a consumer crt. For example I have a jvc consumer crt that has a tube in it that is also used in arcade cabs. You could hook up a pcb to my jvc with a supergun and it's going to look identical to an arcade cab. The best arcade crt I have ever seen is the Toshiba used in candy cabs. This is probably the crt you were looking at during the event Mark. The arcade Toshiba is going to look a lot sharper than the Trinitron you have been using with s -video and of course it's going to look way different than a computer crt outputting 720p. However you can get an almost identical look to the candy cab Toshiba with a Toshiba AF consumer Tv. The Toshiba AF has a flat-screen otherwise it looks the same to a candy cab so long as you feed it rgb/component.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm less of an expert as yourself but I think one big difference is the shape of the arcade monitors vs consumer pvm and crt. So my sony trin for example is about as big as the arcade monitors, but it's much more curved than they are. I think the shape and size of the arcade monitors is what makes them unique. Also don't arcade monitors have sort of grid patterns for their scanlines, whereas consumer crts just have the vertical lines?

[@riggel8804]

@@TheElectricUnderground arcade monitors were not made to be any more curved than consumer/pro crts. In my experience I tend to to find that arcade monitors are MORE curved out in the wild. This is because there are a lot of really old arcade monitors out there and not too many really old consumer tvs. People interested in consumer tvs typically want the newer ones where as arcade enthusiasts want the monitor that matches the cabinet. So a pac man cab might have a monitor from the 80s in it. The older crts tend to be more curved than the newer ones but really the curve is all over the place and varies from model to model. Again, you can find the exact same crt tubes in arcade monitors that you find in consumer tv sets. There are three types of crts, bubble, cylindrical and flat. Your Trinitron is a cylindrical, it is only curved on the x axis. Most crts are bubble tubes and are curved on the x and y axis and there are also completely flat crts. The grid pattern you are talking about is called a "screen door pattern". It's when it looks like you have vertical and horizontal scanlines. This is the hallmark of an inferior tube/crt. High end tubes, like the Toshibas in the candy cabs, only have horizontal scanlines for yoko or vertical scanlines for tate. No screen door look. Arcade monitors tend to suffer from a screen door look compared to consumer sets, especially the older arcade monitors. What's happening in the older arcade cabs is that they have inferior tubes (all the old arcade tubes are inferior) and they also are displaying RGB. Now rgb is a high fidelity signal so you can really see the mask of the tube and every phosphore triad/pixel. If you take the same inferior arcade tube and feed it a composite signal instead of rgb it will blur the image an you won't have a screen door look anymore-you won't have any scanlines at all because of how blurry the image is. This is referred to as "blooming" most old consumer sets have a bloomed out look because most people feed them a composite signal.

[@ArneChristianRosenfeldt]

@@riggel8804mechanically I think carrying the air pressure in both x and y is the way. Bubble can be half as curved or half as heavy as a trinitron. Trinitron needs these damper wires. So why not stick to a these brick layers masks which almost have the same useful area? TV is interlaced and blurs.

[@dr_ubo]

Practicality outshines everything else. It's a shame we can't really get to experience everything the way it was supposed to but there's little to no point in spending a fortune on original hardware. Ironically enough the oldest games are the easiest to emulate correctly and so are the cheapest, it's mostly the more modern ones that will cost an eye.Hope you had fun at the Mikado event, cool shirt you're wearing there. Take care Mark! Hope you had a great time with Juju, Jaimers, Saul, Plas and everyone else at the event.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah I forgot to mention in the vid that I actually do have some og hardware, I have a strikers 2 board and bootleg pgm carts and I rarely ever play them by myself since emulation has pretty much caught up with these games and also there is the bonus of save states and so forth. Whereas if someone came over to visit the first thing I would do is fire up these bits of hardware ha, because it does have a nice cool factor to show people.

[@TWKIC]

as someone who grew up in the middle of nowhere town in New England I'm just happy that I get to play a lot of these games at all, my arcades usually had the usual suspects like Time crisis Daytona a Street fighter game and the only shmup I saw in person was Raiden 2

[@ScanlineCity]

As an owner of many PCBs and also a lover of MISTER I find myself constantly debating selling some of my PCBs for exactly the reasons you mentioned. However, I start to wonder if I will miss seeing and knowing I’m playing on the real thing. Kinda like that feeling of popping in a real cd or cartridge into a system vs a multi cart. Man…the debate. And the fear of regret. Good point about events though, never thought about that.

[@zhukov2116]

Very interesting analysis! I like your final comment that the PCB's best feature is attracting people to events and meetups, as I would love to check all this stuff out for myself. Keep up the awesome work!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah if I get pcbs in the future that will be the primary purpose I think :-) It is really cool to see them at events but they are a lot to manage for everyday use.

[@Barnewallian]

What an amazing project these guys are running. Being a spaniard myself, it makes me happy to see something like this happening in my country. The cabinets are amazing. Amazingly expensive too, dammit. Regarding the crt arcade look, I could show you a few custom shader presets that you might like, Mark. Let me know if you are interested :)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh I'd love to see them! yeah if you message me on discord I'd be happy to check them out :-)

[@HardcoreTanoshii]

As someone who owns a few arcade machines and a few Cave boards, I've basically come to the same conclusion you have. For anything pre-CV1000, it isn't worth buying the boards from a player standpoint. Mister and emulation are basically the same as the PCB for everything up through DOJ, Ketsui, and Espgaluda. With CV1000 though, all bets are off. I'm excited about the work Buffi has put in and I'm actually running their version of MAME (I call it CaveMAME) on one of my Blast City cabs, and the games actually feel really great. As for me though, I will keep collecting (and playing the hell out of) CV1000 games until emulation is as good as the previous games, or they are available on Mister, which probably isn't even possible with the current Mister hardware.

[@mon11nom]

What a fantastically niche video! Kudos to everyone preserving these boards and giving people the opportunity to experience playing on them.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you for tuning in! I'm glad you enjoyed it ha. These types of vids are more hardcore but I think still really important to discuss.

[@pimsbury5155]

Not gonna lie, the coolest thing about the original hardware is just the cool factor of playing on real hardware. I had a guy play SF2:CE at my house this weekend just so could "experience" the real deal. Not like there aren't 500 options to play SF2 by now.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

For sure the cool factor is really hard to beat

[@sibbyeskie]

There is something special about hardware. I think especially as we're getting conditioned to virtualizing everything, there is going to be an ever increasing desire to connect with the actual source material, at least for those who lived some portion of their lives in the physical world (haha).

[@pimsbury5155]

@@sibbyeskie yeah playing the REAL thing just feels a little better to some people like myself. It's cooler popping in a Neo Geo cartridge or Capcom PCB and I tend to appreciate the games more than I ever would just through emulation.

[@sergioosorio2993]

Hey Mark, great video! I just want to say that playing in real hardware is cool as hell, but it can be very painful, if you own a cab, eventually you will have problems with the PSU, the chassis, the wiring, perhaps the tube, etc, and repairing those things ain't funny, you just have to go to arcade forums, and read tons of people asking for help to repair the cabs and their monitors (crts). Also, in most cases, you have to do the repairs, learn to solder, order Ics, caps, diodes, etc, because is hard to find a local repair center for hardware that old. And that's not mentioning the fact that pcbs can go bad too, and repairing for example a doj pcb is not fun at all. I have 2 candy cabs, and play some cave games using mistercade, I managed to 1cc dodonpachi thanks to your videos! right now I'm working on 1cc Espgaluda. In the end, I love playing in original arcade cabs, but sometimes, as UBO commented a few days ago, Practicality outshines everything else.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah that sounds absolutely time consuming to maintain! I think when I get a bigger place I ll get a cab, until then I ll just stick with my gaint crt and emulation ha

[@CyberKnightProbably]

I would say its a very risky investment buying old hardware, because you have to be sure that the arcade games you’ll buy will be the ones your enjoying for a very long time. Also technology is constantly evolving, and so are the needs of certain devices. Once arcades go extinct it will be difficult to replace aging parts once they stop working.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

absolutely! This is a topic I touch upon :-)

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

If the custom chips go on certain boards or they have pal/gal security that isn't dumped, they are pretty much unrepairable. Sometimes you can borrow the same custom from another similar board, but some are one off.

[@robbyrobot3303]

​@@nobodytonobodysbusiness hobbyists are starting to make repros of a lot of these custom ICs thankfully. I'm patiently waiting for this dude, Caiusarcade, to finish the custom IC for 1943. His current inventory is extensive on eBay. He has a KZbin channel also and a blog. I actually see PCBs as a good investment. The crazy collectors spending thousands of dollars on NES boxes will unfortunately move into arcade games one day and the print runs are much smaller

[@mahdiyussuf9804]

Awesome video, bro! Regarding the arcade monitors, you can get close to it with consumer sets you can probably find for free or cheap on local classifieds: slot mask tubes like Toshiba A series and JVC D series. With component or RGB mod, they give the fat scanlines and "pixel" arrangement from many arcade monitors back in the day. The high line count of the arcade monitors is what gives them the fat scanlines I think, and for sure they don't have the aperture grille of a pvm or trinitron

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that is some awesome insight!! I love the aperture grill style scan lines :-)

[@andrewbutler9533]

Last night whilst watching your video Mark, I realised I'm pretty lucky that I live near Arcade Club just outside Manchester UK. There they have (across Egret 2's and Sega Astro City's) Espgaluda, Ketsui, DDP Res, Armed Police Batrider, Battle Garegga, and may more. I haven't been since last year, but I contacted them and they have apparently got even more including ESPrade, Dangun Feveron Mushihimesama. 👍

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's awesome my dude! you know the UK is probably the next country I visit (maybe next year) so who knows I may be showing up to play on those cabs in the future :-)

[@superhadouken]

Besides input lag, which is not good to be high, the home conversions of cave games could be taken as updated versions of the games. We always think pcbs as the final version of the games. But If mushi for example has more slowdowns to help dodging, I think is the developer trying to adjust gameplay further the pcb. Maybe it was not their intention to be accurate but more playable to most people. So maybe these conversions are the final versions and not the pcbs.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think that case absolutely can be made my friend :-) cave clearly really like how the 360 version of mushi plays as they keep porting it in that form ha

[@loltoheaven777sreplaystora6]

pretty sure this is it i remember playing dfk 1.5 in mame for the first time and figuring out that strong style was actually introduced in black label

[@Emarrel]

The whole "which version is definitive" discussion inevitably leads into "which version is worth preserving?" The bottom line is the physical nature of these PCBs means that not only is their access limited but also makes their failure an inevitability. There's plenty of cultural examples of where the most accessible version of something becomes the "true" version of it in the public eye, so I don't think it's outlandish to apply the mentality to video games even if it does make the preservation discussion more muddy. The most useful thing to do would be to use PCBs as a reference point to get the emulation as good as it can possibly be, because sooner or later we're going to reach a point where it becomes more difficult to ascertain the accuracy and the more accessible versions of these games that people have more exposure to will will become the "real" version. After all, if the emulation can't be touted as being completely accurate, does it really matter if some console port is a little less accurate?

[@dr_ubo]

You bring up a really good point to be honest. Practical use sets up the definition or consensus for stuff. On a slight off topic note, I'm surprised to see you here, big fan of your old Demon's Souls NG+7 SL1 runs back in the day, as someone deep in both arcade games, shmups _and_ souls games, I'm surprised to see you around (kinda youtube starstruck here lol)

[@astreakaito5625]

what a great video man. Been binging on all your videos while playing shmups myself, trully inspiring! Although now because of you I notice input lag way more than usual!!!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha you have seen the light astrea and now you can't unsee it. It can be kind of a burden at times, but it also is great because you can now sniff out good ports and don't have to battle some strange force making your controls feel like sludge.

[@BknMoonStudios]

Fascinating info, and I'm super excited for the full documentary! It's sad that the more "necessary" a PCB is, the more likely it is to get price gouged. On the other hand, 90% of players aren't aiming for World Records, so having a bit of input lag and missing slowdown in emulation for a low price (or free) seems like a very reasonable trade-off.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah absolutely brokenmoon and the good news is that emulation is making massive leaps forward right now, so that gap in performance between the pcb and emulation is shrinking fast. So I think in terms of solo play emu will emerge as king, but in terms of community events and gatherings, I think that's where the og hardware shines.

[@AlastairGames]

Man, I just sold my joystick cause I haven't played shmups in ages, but seeing these games again, never got to finish DaiOuJou and Ketsui! They look so fun!

[@PikaStu666]

Aw man, a TATE cab would be amazing. I’d settle for a MiSTer or even a PC in there, but the authentic cab controls and large CRT would be amazing!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

for sure! one day when I get the floor space I also want to get a full sized cab and stick a powerful pc and a mister inside ha

[@Epicasfuk]

Mark , watch your earliest videos and watch this one and compare the amazing tone and rhythm your ranting confidence in your self has gotten . You could start to sell yourself as a E sport commentator, your one of my "heroes" out there as an adult gamer that goes for 1cc's and challenge runs. I am always watching your content and completely nodding along to all the real deal shit.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

thank you very much Jesus! Yes I've come a long way since the early days, it's like that 10,000 hours of practice thing ha, I've basically made videos and talked into a mic for about 5 years straight now lol.

[@Epicasfuk]

@@TheElectricUnderground Hell Yeah man. GG on the 5 years and the future. You GOT GUD man

[@AaronKraten]

Great video. I have been a long time player of arcade hardware and have many of these cave pcb. I bought them to play them because I really want to experience them in there arcade form. On the second hand market over 13 years ago the games were much more affordable. Like many markets with supply and demand things can go up in price but since I bought all these games to play them I have no interest in selling them. I do not keep them in a vault I regularly play them , They all work with no issues in my cabs. You can see on my channel my setup and various 1cc videos I have made with my pcbs. I have had regular meet ups with shmup friends and it has been a real treat. I appreciate your content thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[@SMEARFLA]

I like that you touched on refresh rates of arcade boards and consumer CRTs vs arcade monitors. I’m assuming, since it looks like most of the cabs there were Egret IIs, you were more than likely playing on Nanao MS29 monitors, which are arguably the best arcade monitors ever to exist. I have one in my New Astro City and it’s an elevated experience vs even a consumer CRT turned on its side.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah it's a real difference in how they look and I like how they aren't as curved as regular crts. Now I wish I had my own cab ha, maybe someday when I get the floor space.

[@AaronKraten]

@@TheElectricUnderground So much fun , I hope you get a cab some day.

[@darylward4039]

almost went to the mikado event but british rail strikes forced me to remain in the UK... I am so happy for you and everyone who went to the event though, it looked magic and it looks like you had an incredible time! Thanks for doing the research and asking the big questions as always :D

[@GojiGuy]

I'm glad you got a chance to play some Cave shmups on PCB! A good Egret II setup is really something else. Truth is, as good as it is it's definitely a hard sell for most people especially when, as you said, emulation, mister and even modern consoles ports are not only catching up performance-wise, but they are way better -featurew-wise. Save states, training, multiple versions, online leaderboards, replay save, etc... That's stuff that builds attachment and community.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah exactly, I actually have some arcade hardware and I hardly ever play on it, not because I don't like it but because emulation has so many great practice features.

[@markguyton2868]

Can't really say anything about Cave stuff arcade or otherwise because I have only played one Cave game, but I'm always for archiving game history no matter what format it appears on. It's honestly cool people still have these cabinets to try out.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes i def encourage you to visit a nearby arcade with some friends if you are ever able to, playing on the og hardware with a group is really a lot of fun.

[@viewtifuljoe99]

I'm jealous of being able to play all those games in person! I'm going to Japan in a month and hoping to spot a cave cab somewhere in the wild.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yes for sure my dude! You should visit one the big arcades like Hey, I'm sure you'll find lots of cool cabs there.

[@ArcadeHell]

Drooling over all those Cave PCBs! How frickin' fun! I feel very privileged to have a local arcade with great cabs and Cave shmups. Playing on real arcade hardware is a treat. Looking forward to the documentary!

[@vidyergaemenjoyer447]

Thanks for another great video! I'm grateful you did all this testing since it's good to have a definitive answer to how accurate/lagless the PCBs are. Maybe I'll finally be motivated to get a lag test setup so that I can test my only PCB (Progear), although I'm sure someone somewhere has done it already if I dig enough. Would also be interested to see if the only game Cave made on Capcom's CPS2 is any laggier than the PCBs you tested.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that would be interesting to look at!! Yeah sadly I didn't get to try progear

[@bills__________]

the vibes in this video are immaculate! i'd be pumped too! what a cool event. i can totally relate to so many points you bring up too. first time i started playing on my Astro City i was like, holy shit, these scan lines are so intense, i'm not even sure if i like this?! but i've fallen in love with it. after extended play sessions i now find it more comfortable and immersive to play this way. and i have found myself staring at those same Mushihimesama pcb listings on eBay trying to justify spending so much money 😅

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thanks so much bills! Yes I'd love to have a cab of my own someday, I will get one as soon as I have the floor space ha.

[@Newspeak.]

I went in to this video thinking they weren't worth it and left it desperately wanting even one CAVE shmup cabinet. But collecting them just doesn't seem like something I would ever bother doing in reality. Great video can't wait to see more from this show. I wish we could have something like this in the US it's so cool to see all those cabinets set up like that.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah I left the event feeling the same way ha. One alternative to think about though would be to get yourself a cab setup, but then stick in a pc running shmuparch or a mister, I think that will give you a really nice experience without costing so many thousands of dollars (at least for some games)

[@Newspeak.]

@@TheElectricUnderground yeah it's a good idea but like...do you really own the game if it's not the PCB ;)

[@Yakkers]

My local Round 1 before it closed (RIP) had Mushi Futari and Espgaluda II and it was an absolute dream to play on them, so little input lag it felt like your ship is moving as fast as you can think it. Completely night and day compared to the ports. I own a couple PCBs but I'm absolutely not a collector, I own them purely to be played. Outside of stuff like MiSTer when you emulate you have to choose between input lag or screen tearing but the PCBs let you get the best of both worlds.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

that is so cool yakkers! Shame your local arcade shut down :-( Yes I love playing on the pcbs too, though emulation is also really helpful for practice with save states!

[@youtibbles2546]

would love to see more MiSTer cores compared to a reviewed against their PCBs. kind of a shame the MiSTer wasnt brought up more in this video great video tho! while i already came to the conclusion as you, it was nice hearing it from someone else :)

[@gfy69]

Honestly would frustrate the hell out of me to know a game so well you realize improved lag is making you have to learn all over again. Great work Mark, I hope they spared everyone and turned down the volume. On the dangun cab lmao.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh man the cabs were so loud ha! but when you get that many going at once it becomes kind of a mass hum of sound lol. My fav was the mushi cab though because it had a sub woofer and the bass sounded so crunchy and good

[@taishou94]

This video was amazing. Thank you so much for your input and I love the debate of whether it's worth it or not. I learned a lot :)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you so much my dude!!!!

[@Graterstuuf]

Man I’m still blown away there was a Cave show in Spain .

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It was one hell of an event in person! shame the stream didn't capture what was going on, but I am hoping the documentary shows how much fun everyone was having.

[@minimalmaster8489]

I was well acquainted with this beautiful era of arcades and arcade terminals in bistros. At the end of the 80s until the middle (even end, Naomi terminals) of the 90s, the arcade was the best in terms of graphics and acted as a technological showcase, as evidenced by the arcade games ported to console 8 and 16 bits which were for the most part much less attractive (not necessarily less good on the other hand, certain games were better on console). We obviously needed something sufficiently attractive compared to the games we had at home to encourage players to put one (or more) coin(s) in them (the arcade terminals, which we can also rightly qualify as food dough). Those days are long gone, as the growing power of consoles and PCs kept pushing us away from these video game rooms to the point that they ended up no longer attracting interest from gamers. And then, for those who want to replay and own (or discover) these games at a lower cost, we now have equipment that can emulate more or less suitably all the great games that have made the heyday of these leisure establishments dedicated to video games. or replicate (Mister FPGA) the components of arcade PCBs brilliantly. The similarity is such with the very good ports or the Mister FPGA that the differences are practically undetectable, at least with the naked eye. Despite all this, it's always a pleasure to play on this type of support which, moreover, can serve as a beautiful decorative object (provided you have the means and the space of course). I really got off to a good start playing Ketsui, Guwange and Dodonpachi Daiôjô (PCB version) at Stunfest a few years ago :-)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes for sure minimal. What's interesting is that I still think the arcade environment holds some magic when you get a group of players together, and that was a point I really wanted to emphasize at the end. Even though it's probably not all that worth it to have these extremely expensive arcade pcbs sitting in your house alone, when they are combined with in person events I think that is where the original hardware really shines as it does feel like a return to the arcade days :-)

[@kirby695]

Awesome video! I don't think prices will ever go down on Cave games, Look at cps1 and cps2 games... after they been emulated 1:1, The prices are still going up. I been in this hobby for 20 years and it saddens me to look at the market now.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think they will retain their prices or increase them till we re all old and dead, then they ll be worth nothing like model trains ha

[@sibbyeskie]

This was epic seeing all of those machines in one place. I am so glad you were able to get those input lag tests, but kind of shocked. I feel like I've always heard the PCB's have roughly 2-frames of lag, except for a few egregious outliers (Garegga, Pink Sweets, etc). I dug up an old cave-stg post and the admin stated this ("All CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs have 2 frames of input lag"), but he also gave Mushi a slowdown emulation score of "B", while you said the slowdown was definitely off in key parts. So just to confirm, the direction input occurs on a frame, then the next frame nothing happens, but on the frame after that there is motion? It's possible people are just using different reference frames (heh) for counting the lag, in which case others are counting the input frame. Great job and can't wait to hear all about the whole trip!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hi sibby, like I mentioned in my vid my camera settings weren't perfectly dialed in, so the cabs could be around 1 or 2 frames. So I could believe they are at 2 frames as well, but my cam kept seeing them at 1 frame. I think it's safe to say they are either 1 or 2 frames, I'd love to be able to do a really extensive look at the lag on some of them in the future though. Still it is nice to see that they all match up input lag wise pretty much, so it's not like sdoj or ibara are extra laggy which I was curious about.

[@sibbyeskie]

@@TheElectricUnderground I understand. I imagine if you get 1 frame and you polled at 60FPS, then at least some of the time the lag is 1 frame. Either way it’s a surprise but pretty cool to know.

[@complexacious]

@@sibbyeskie 1-2 frames tends to be the "minimum" for a standard game. When you think about it, the average game loop is: 1) Sample input 2) Run game logic 3) Render graphics 4) Wait for next frame And when you're talking CRTs it actually takes most of the 16ms per frame time to DISPLAY that frame (sort of since you can see partial frames it depends whether you count when the frame is complete or half done, or first scanline...), when the graphics card has a complete frame ready to go the data still has to be sent to the display and this takes time. So depending on when you touch the controls your input lag in this scenario can be 1 or 2 frames. If you press the input at the very very top of Frame 0, then the game logic will run, render and output for Frame 1. A 16ms delay. But if you miss that top even by a tiny fraction, you miss the input sample for Frame 1 and so it will be Frame 2 when you see your results. Because you are far more likely to have your inputs during a frame rather than at the top of a frame then the average should tend towards 2 rather than 1. Some games do late polling where they utilise player input further down the code and so will average closer to 1 than 2. If you could synchronise your input with the display vblank you could remove the human element and get a best case scenario measurement, then you could add deliberate delays to figure out roughly when each board samples input. Then you wouldn't need an average, you could give hard numbers.

[@sibbyeskie]

@@complexacious yeah what is interesting here is Mark got a consistent 1 frame of lag. I wouldn't have been surprised by an occasional 1frame reading, for reasons you gave. But if it is, in fact, more often 1frame then the accepted average slides from 2frame (what most people claim) closer to 1frame. For me it makes a difference and I take Mark's readings seriously, if not conclusively. In the end I have limited information, and so I can't be sure where the actual average rests. If you asked me last week I would have said "2 frames" but now I'm open to the possibility that it is actually closer to "1 frame." This also impacts the possible range for games that are widely considered as being beyond 2frames such as Guwange, Garegga, etc. I probably won't own any of these machines, but at minimum it is a good yardstick for how my setup (stick, monitor, emulation, port) compares against the originals, and any time someone does tests I am very interested in the results.

[@kamadoma715]

I truly agree with all the points you've made on this video, especially about the part where emulation is starting to become the standard for setting world records. I think it'd be also great if you'd include your experience on the DOJ PCB on a review of the upcoming DOJ port by M2STG.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah that's a great point! I'll be sure to mention that when I am comparing the two, I'm so excited for the upcoming port.

[@598gh]

That special look on the Arcade CRT's I think might be because some cabinets afaik, use 24 KHz monitors instead of the consumer/PVM look of 240p at 15 KHz. You can get thick scanlines on a PC CRT which are 31 KHz monitors, you just have to set the resolution to 240p 120 Hz, it might give you something similar. One thing to note here, it has to be a weird resolution like 2560x240 120Hz and set it up using a program called CRU (Custom Resolution Utility) and then pick that resolution in RetroArch. It might produce input lag though, I'm not sure.

[@ArneChristianRosenfeldt]

You could mix a TV tube and gun (soft spot) white a line transformer and deflection transistors meant for big EGA (24kHz) or VGA (31 kHz) monitors. Then set up 72 Hz vertically or even more.

[@segatouringcar3738]

Excellent impressions! It happens to me that when I connect my Megadrive or Neo Geo and play on a CRT it gives me the impression that there is less lag even than RetroArch with RunAhead active. It may be a mere sensation, since I have no means of measuring it, but I find it curious. ¿Has aprendido alguna nueva palabra en Español? 😜

[@Tchiko.]

Thank you for the video Mark. So you can film those CRT with a good quality… I will be delighted to see some of your videos showing your gameplay on your CRT TV as those games were designed to be displayed. As someone who use exclusively old consoles on a consumer CRT Trinitron, my guess on the dark screen is that it helps the reading of the game along.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah filming on crt is really tricky but the results look super cool That's the secret sauce with my life in gaming, you notice how much up close crt footage they use lol.

[@slipshod7951]

If youre ever in the UK , call in at Bury Arcade Club . They have a room with around 30 candy cabs , playing loads of the classic shmups Batsugun Armed Police Batrider Battle Garrega Mushihimesama Progear etc etc And loads more ! So no , for me original stuff isnt worth all the hassle id rather just visit there for my arcade fix

[@ArcadeHell]

Well gaaaawd damn! This vid kicks ass! I won't be picking this one up, but I did pick up RE4 to play through for the first time! Capcom, check is in the mail! Please send some royalties Mark's way!

[@complexacious]

The downside to runahead is that you can only have as many runahead frames as the original game has buffering frames otherwise you get "issues." This would manifest as bullets or enemies appearing to suddenly jump from one path to another as their positions were based on the player ship 2 frames ago, but runahead replayed your new inputs on the old state and so their target is now different. I suppose it might be less noticeable in a cave game as they tend to decide on a trajectory many frames in advance, but the potential is still there to mess you up. You can probably power out of the problem though. If you can get the emulation of a single frame down to

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah run ahead isn't totally perfect but have you heard of pre emotive frames! This is a new version of run ahead that seems to work a lot better! I ve been using it for arch 8 beta and it does seem to be less jittery on some game that have a bit of jitter to them like garegga

[@complexacious]

@@TheElectricUnderground I need to look into it properly. From the description it sounded like it was simply a performance enhancement, rather than running the core logic several times over it did it on demand in response to controller input only. Based on that it would reduce CPU related jitter where you ran out of headroom but not game logic related where there was not enough input buffering in the game code to cover it. However I could be 100% completely wrong about how it works. Input lag management is full of exceptions, caveats, edge cases, special exemptions...

[@paulanderson3772]

Fascinating. I'd love to own Mushi pcb just for prosperity. Also, any shirts left? Awesome designs, I ordered too small. All good if not, catch you later MSX.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hey paul, I did order a few spare shirts of various sizes, so after all the shipments come in I'll make a post about what's left over :-)

[@Mii-Min]

I live about a block away from Arcade Club UK and I'm commonly used to playing on LCD or CRT Screens that are more consumer grade. I think the biggest difference for me is the curvature of the monitor. I noticed this the most in games like Ketsui and Futari. It feels almost like those old Pianos with the roll of paper on a spool. It was difficult for me to adjust to, especially in Garegga's case. The feel of the Astro City Machines is unmatched though! I think there's a sort of pressure that gets put on you too. When you play isolated on your own hardware / MAME there's no feeling of people watching you play. Most of the time. The atmosphere alone is a sort of driving force! As for your point about the bullets disappearing into the Scanlines... Garegga's already difficult to see metallic bullets and constant shrapnel makes the game even more difficult! Thank you for your work Mark. Looking forward to the Documentary and any future versions of Shmuparch!頑張って～！

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is so cool my dude! Yeah the semi curve shape of the arcade monitors does make a difference I think :-) I m currently working on the arch 8 beta right now so it should be out soon!

[@Mii-Min]

@@TheElectricUnderground Appreciate the Update. Waiting eagerly for the release! Keep doing what you do for the Shmup Community~!

[@martinevans1206]

Let’s hope more CAVE cores are done for MiSTer FPGA.

[@zarcanzo]

Really digging the new thumbnail!!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you my dude!! Bog did a great job on it!

[@Mimi-573]

Nice point on the idea of definite versions. I like to think this is what drives the guys at M2STG to make their ports as perfect as possible and very accessible.

[@jamiec2023]

Fascinating topic.. looking forward to see more of the Spanish event in the future

[@47beethoven]

Yeah man, it's too expensive and you already advised about the failures etc in other videos (which would make me reluctant even if they were cheaper). It is super awesome though, I would love an of Esprade PCB just for the fun. But yeah, just wish the community/M2 keep pushing the preservation/availability forward.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I'd love to have ddp and rade on pcb, I love those games a lot. It is cool that they are on the mister but there is something special about playing the og boards, would be great to have for meet ups.

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

Great video and congratulations for the mikado festival. i agree with all topics you mentioned, except that pcb´s are going to devaluate. They are going to value even more with time as their number of units will continue to decrease. About the monitors being dark, it might be something related to the age of crt´s (they loose quality with time) or even light in the place.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh let me clarify what I mean, I don't mean devalue in a monetary sense, I mean devalue in a player's investment sense, in that the advantages that the pcbs have will start to become less and less as emulation catches up. Eventually emulation (I think the in the very near future) will match the pcb performance 1 to 1 and then it'll also have all the extra benefits like save states and so forth.

[@beebot]

Mark - looks like you had a great time I look forward to seeing the footage. Is that Ibara Kuro BL I see? I definitely think the PCB's often feel different - usually more responsive, so not surprised. At home I use a 29" PGM monitor (a 15/31khz display CRT used in galleries) with an SLG in-line (no added processing delay). I find this looks almost true to arcade (but that will depend on the cab). The Taito Egret II's have a dualsync Nanao monitor which does a lovely job with 15khz - even in comparison to other arcade monitors they look very sharp with somewhat pronounced scanlines.

[@fg.8853]

Amazing thumbnail , clean and nice

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thanks fg! Bog created it and did a great job :-)

[@salttrader4113]

The looks you are talking about is all about the crt and the brand of monitors. Those games were made for specific crt, so it does make a huge difference. CRT shaders help bridge the gap when playing on LCD. Megabezel for retroarch does some magic, it's never going to be 100%the same for purists, but it's very close.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It s important to keep in mind though that arcade monitors are differently shaped from consumer crts and pvms, I think that's part of what gives them their look

[@salttrader4113]

@@TheElectricUnderground very possible, those monitor are definitely part of the experience.

[@PaulHindt]

I previously owned a Ketsui board and a DDP 1.5 board and I would say that most casual players won't be able to tell the difference in input lag between the PCB and the 360 ports of these titles. I haven't tried PCB versions of the other CV1000 Cave games yet, so can't say how they compare to the 360 ports. I've heard that Akai Katana is way too fast on 360 compared to the PCB for instance. When comparing against MAME, depending on the MAME client you use, timing differences are more noticeable. But even still, 99% of casual players likely won't notice. That being said, there's nothing like playing Ketsui on a candy cab with clicky ball tops, the sound cranked, and a big 29" Nanao in your face.

[@Marco-00]

Great video as usual Mark! thanks for sharing! Other than Garegga I was also wandering about those pesky Psykio games like strikers, gunbird, dragon blaze... on retroarch most of them need 4 frames of run-ahead, how about PCBs?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh I have the strikers 2 board! so I'm pretty sure it also is likely 1 frame when properly setup, I get 2 frames on it at home, but that's because I use a usb decoder and an ossc with it. So 2 at most and possibly as low as 1 :-)

[@davy-84]

Great video! It's great to have a real compare between pcb and ports/emulation with your opinion. I played ddp dfk and mushi. What a great experience. It's very different to be so close to a big screen. That's confirm nothing is as good as pcb for the moment but I also think will be better and better with emulation.

[@mcjumic]

Mark we're gonna need a report on the Cotton 2 board

[@dingo535]

I also play most of my shmups ,especially 2D ones on a crt computer monitor. I drop the resolution to 480p (the lowest available resolution) to get that more authentic look but I Agree there is something special about native 240p on an arcade monitor.

[@truxardus4331]

Many arcade games, particularly old ones circa 1990, look way too bright when you play them on emulator. It makes sense why; the original screens were very dark and they compensated for this. I didn't even think of this, I just knew the emulated versions looked wrong. I haven't played an actual arcade since I was a kid so I didn't even remember quite what they are "supposed" to look like, just that the washed out bright look was wrong.

[@ytriDlO]

So i guess i have to keep all my Cave PCBs. What a shame :-(. Would be awesome if a Cave Multi liker for the CPS2 games exist.thx for the test

[@reiul9787]

Oh yeah, can't wait for it!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Glad to hear that!!

[@BASEDSAKRI]

probably ur best video keep it up

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you very much!!!

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

As someone with around 100 boards, they take up way too much space and there are really only a handful that are worth keeping. Buy to play, never to collect.

[@SkyangelPR]

I recently subscribe to your channel and i love it, i was wondering do you have a video of online multiplayer shmups

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that's a cool idea! so I'd love to cover that topic in the future, from what I understand the most popular two are twinkle star sprites and rival megagun :-)

[@SkyangelPR]

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks a lot 🙏🏻

[@edvardasv.8467]

very interesting video it seems, I can't wait!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah lots of cool stuff to go over :-)

[@JogosMofados]

Nice, while I collect arcade board, at least the ones that I have nostalgia and that are still reasonably priced, I agree with most you said there. I'm better off sticking a MiSTer on my cab to play, rather than paying a lot of cash for a single game. I do find it cool to be able to to cash out for those more expensive boards, but then it's all about what each of us can do and that's definitely not on my reach 😉.

[@riffmason]

Congrats, really nice vid!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you riff!! It s gonna be cool to show more event footage when I edit together the doc

[@thisrg7054]

Playing SDOJ with only 1 frame of input lag must feel amazing tho, even playing it on mame still feels a bit too laggy for me. The Mushi PCB looks pretty interesting too with the faster bullets. I'd love the ports of CAVE games to have an option in the menu to turn on or off the slowdown for each portion of the game (stage, mid-boss and boss). Because tbh, most of the slowdown in those games ispretty unnecessary unless you're going for scoring and just makes some parts of the games drag on. Not like I'll ever have the spare money to buy those PCB anyway so I'll just have to wait for emulation to get better or some new ports xd

[@junmendero5396]

I have a bunch of cabs and arcade hardware, but I mostly play fighting games. I absolutely agree with you, though, the original PCBs are almost unnecessary these days. Most 2d fighting game emulation is very very accurate these days to the point where I would rather use emulators on cabs than real hardware to practice, but it's just really fun to own the originals regardless!

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

I am glad that you are back. Did you use your spaghetti spoon on that arcade event?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I did not ha, no super easy modes needed to be beaten lol

[@rabagoposada]

YOU ARE THE MAN!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you my dude!!! 😊

[@barrybubbles4639]

I think you're going to have to get an exa arcadia and see if that is fast...I suspect it may be.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yep I m supposed to get my hands on one borrowed from a patron soon

[@salttrader4113]

I think the problem is maintenance, if you manage to get a crt they break all the time. If you use an LCD you get crap graphics. So hard to say...

[@tom11zz884]

Original hardware is worth it. It plays the way it was intended to play That said, it is not worth it at this point with many of these shooters available for the PS4 with a nice fight stick and that is all you need.

[@johnrussell8086]

Replying a bit late😆. I wonder if the monitors are close to a BVM or some sort of PC CRT? Old monitors even LCD 4:3 monitors fascinate me.

[@leonleon3267]

I think the input lag thing very much reminds me of the 50/60hz thing we used to have in the eu region, if you ain't used to playing in 60hz you don't really know any different you're used to the game being slower it's not slow for you because that's the format you play all the games in you're brain does not know any different, once eu gamers started to used to playing in arcades and 60hz became accessible then yes you then start to notice how crappy 50hz is, and i think that's true of input lag in some respect, if you're playing a game in say MAME like ibara which performs kinda meh and that's all you're playing and that's all you know then i think the ports are acceptable, but yeah input lag does suck and fighting games the last 15 years and the ports of them have really suffered greatly because of it, so i can understand how some shoot em up die hards must feel about the arcade VS port debate

[@martijn8538]

Your conclusion is exactly as expected, cv1000 emulation just isnt 100% accurate yet. Apart from the price a major pain in the ass with them is the fact they are more likely to be unrepairable when they fail than the older boards. I think the color circuits are also bound to fail on those boards? Although that is repairable. Anyway they seem like too much of an (expensive) timebomb to me

[@raoulduke8094]

I had a similar experience at Arcadeclub in the UK which I'm very lucky to have only 1hr away. It was a real treat to play DDP DOJ and Espgaluda amongst others on a big CRT how it should be played. Just the general viewing distance from the huge screen, joystick position (LS32?) and seated posture on the Astro style cabs seemed natural which helped you get in the zone. They had Garegga too but I wasn't brave enough to take on the Arcade version. Does the retroarch "runahead" you mention work in similar way to the monitor lag compensation setting on the M2 Deathtiny?

[@dahjord]

wow i wish i had one of these machines they look sweet af i play on real crt monitors too sony pvms

[@FermentedGrumpyGrapeSqueezit]

No not at all. Mixing old with modern adaptations is the ultimate. I can bring my laptop with launchbox anywhere and set up everything from controllers to wii sensor bars, light guns in seconds and hook it to any TV and play. Not to mention I have the history of video games in 1 machine as opposed to 3 games in a machine that you dont want to move around. I get the purist thing I was born in 84, but I also evolve with my hobbies.

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

Honestly i don t think its is Worth, unless you are rich or a big fan, as most of them are too expensive.some components may bé hard to fix in case is broken, PCBs may bé hard to instal and setup, they do occupy a lot of space. Mr fpga can emulate perfectly many PCB (or at least the reviewers say that). We don t live a perfect world and we are not going to have a miserável life just because we don t have the perfect produt. There are more important priorities in life (eating, rent, etc). Just go to a 2 world country (for instance Brazil). Do you think most of them buys original games and have a good PC? Of course not, and in the end of the day they probably have more fun than US (having more limited resources, makes US value even more the games)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I discuss some of these very concerns in the vid :-) I also try my best to weigh the pros and cons of what they offer :-)

[@KnjazNazrath]

tbh I foresee spoofed cabinets w/ shmuparch being their own nostalgiab8 in the future for the few people who still have fond memories of arcades whilst erryone else is busy using their eyes to move their ship in their VR pods.

[@peterporto836]

I think it really depends on your priorities and if you are a collector or not. Some people buy sofas that are worth 7000 bucks and it’s debatable if a sofa is worth more than a Dodonpachi saidaioujou PCB. I recently bought 2 CV 1000B PCBs ( Mushi and Ibara). I heard the CV 1000 PCBs are very sensible to over-voltage and need less power than most PCBs. Which voltage would you recommend?

[@3Havoc]

I think the thing is people forget is that emulation is an approximation of the original's hardware's code execution not a true 1:1. I have some arcade boards namely MVS, CPS1 and 2 and R-type don't recommend getting boards if you don't have basic electronics knowledge as you will eventually need to do some maintenance and hardware troubleshooting should 30 year old silicon goes bad.

[@Robertkopp84]

Totally agree with the critical mass statement. Just don't wipe or combine leaderboards. Leave the legacy scores alone.

[@shain6946]

Some of the ports and emulated versions play like a different game compared to real hardware. Have you got a chance to check out the Mister Project? I would be interested in your opinions on the Cave games on it.

[@soganatari7411]

now i want a home arcade ^^

[@TheElectricUnderground]

me too! sadly not enough floor space ha

[@superpowerman4354]

But I thought MisTer was almost 1-1 accurate in most cases? It’s crazy how different mushi arcade version is, hardly any slowdown.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

the mister version of ddp is very accurate for sure! I don't believe the mushi era of cave games is yet supported on mister, I really hope it is at some point though!

[@THELEGENDARYK2]

Once you know, you know.

[@arisumego]

i would fucking love a deathsmile one

[@THELEGENDARYK2]

Arcade pcbs definitely good for meetups. I can't say I'm even decent at the boards I have, but luck to have bought them at a time when they were "less" expensive. I've sold a couple too for prices that make me really sad now. Cest la vie. Curious how a sdoj on Exa plays

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I did play a bit of sdoj on the exa board and it felt as responsive as the pcbs, but I couldn't lag test it as I was afraid to mess around with it's cabinet. That being said, I've also heard that it does not play 1 to 1 the same at the og sdoj board, so it's not a perfect replacement for the original either.

[@THELEGENDARYK2]

​@The Electric Underground question is now: when is the Cave Festival in the states gonna be?

[@RetroTuna]

it's a shame but your right, i got to play SDOJ on Exa arcadia at 1 frame of latancy and it's night and day compared to the 360 port but at around $4300 to play it the 360 port will do.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah and espeically bexuase now retroarch supports sdoj and you can chop the lag down that way ... that's going to be in the next update which I am hard at work on right now :-)