Is Beast Gohan REALLY that Strong?

How strong are Beast Gohan and Cell Max ACTUALLY?
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Beast Gohan and Cell Max are presented as the new ceilings of power in Dragon Ball Super: Superhero, but are they actually that strong? Do they really dominate Ultra Instinct Goku, Ultra Ego Vegeta, and even Black Freeza without a second thought? Well I think there’s two arguments that can be made.
Let’s start with the fun one. Cell Max beats almost everyone in Universe 7 and Beast Gohan is the untouchable mortal god. So Dragon Ball Super: Superhero focuses on two things in the beginning - the revival of the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo getting a power up. These on their own mean nothing, but take into consideration that the army uses data on Goku and Vegeta to base their new androids off of and that Piccolo isn’t certain Goku and Vegeta could even make a difference in this fight. See a pattern? Watch the video to learn more!
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#dragonballsuper #dbssuperhero #dragonballsupersuperhero #dragonball #beastgohan

[@CarthusDojo]

It’d be pretty BEAST of you to like the video…okay I’ll see myself out 🚶‍♂️🚶‍♂️🚶‍♂️

[@invincible4u]

This is the BEAST video I've ever seen on your channel.

[@unboundg932]

Do you know the gohan banged Vidal so hard the gods felt the power so if Gohan just did that he could defeat everyone including cell beacause cells tail is he big pp

[@kingzeno276]

Can’t wait

[@Zakasu_Nanemi]

i think hes pretty strong because after he defeats cell max hes all like "not even my father and vegeta could have done it"

[@robertpalomera6409]

MrBEAST

[@armygeneral2023]

Another thing about black frieza, he didn't just impale gas, he made him crumble to bits. It is established that gasses ability to be the strongest in the universe continuously scales above other rising powers leading to his age increase and growing power. When black frieza shows up, his power is so great that when gas tries to scale above it, he crumbles to dust.

[@agentnukaz1715]

right it wasnt just frieza one shoting him, he also died of life force drain in that instant

[@benimpanu4405]

No, he was already gassed shortly before arriving from the freezer he was already dead, he consumed all his strength fighting Goku, he was already at his limit. Frieza beat him because he wasn't taken into account during the wish in the same way as Goku's true ultra instinct, in fact that's what he killed.

[@Crusader625]

Wasn't freiza in a hyperbolic time chamber when both granolah AND gas made their wish? Freiza himself mentioned that he was never included when both made their wish of strongest in the universe since he was in a diffrent dimension

[@benimpanu4405]

@@Crusader625 Exact, it was not taken into account, but anyway gas was already dead.

[@odakidakida9193]

Gas is dying anyway after all exhaustion and the side effects of Cerealian Dragon Balls' wish... Frieza just finished him off

[@Sirgrap3]

Freiza really just went -one shots everyone -refuses to elaborate -leaves

[@alatus_knight]

He did elaborate so no

[@Spriqqan]

I just think its weird how after one fight they somehow surpas Goku and Vegeta when the transformation wasnt that impactful to begin with. Like i understand Piccolo almost died or whatever but going from Mystic which is no where near Goku and Vegeta to then suddenly get a boost that surpasses ssj blue and MUI and UE is kinda wild to me. Even the fact that Cell Max and Nr1 and Nr2 were made to beat DBZ Goku, they havent even seen Blue or God form so them being stronger is so weird to me.

[@tobiasgray246]

I thought I was the only one.. goku damn near died to get UI sign 😂😂😂

[@Joshua_Edits]

Fr man beast should be ssjbkkx20 level maybe toriyama said it with exaggeration and to hype the fans for the movie...and cell max is stated to be weaker then full power broly so ui Goku would neg max..

[@nr.________.4131]

@@Joshua_Edits fr

[@mordecai49]

@@Joshua_Edits I think beast form being somewhere in the realm of ssb kioken or ssb evolution is the best compromise. It is a massive jump in power relative to Gohan's power before it, which is characteristic of Gohan; but not such a huge leap that he invalidates every single thing the other characters have accomplished while he was off being a scholar. Gohan got to leap everyone when he gets SSJ2 vs Cell, and that was cool because he was in the shit with everyone else training hard. Leaping past everyone again is much less interesting because we aren't seeing him build up to the moment and earning it. New transformations can be cool and fun without having to be the new strongest thing.

[@aplusmin1497]

Exactly

[@Itzadul]

😢 before Akira toryama passed away he confirmed that Beast Gohan is stronger than tui goku

[@cinemamadness6920]

Considering Broly has never had a serious fight/challenge until Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta, it makes you wonder how much potential for growth he still has. It's possible just a zenkai could be massive for him just as it used to be for Goku and Vegeta. Heck, just the training he did in Super Hero could make him already surpass everyone who was briefly above him him. Broly is a character that can be as strong as he needs to be and it makes sense narratively speaking.

[@ghost-writer007]

Well in the manga he surpasses everyone even jiren

[@camer0n541]

​@Adam Smith we in boruto now? (I know this is a typo)

[@thefive-brickfortress3394]

I don’t think goku on vegeta or their own will ever surpass broly because broly could always unlock a new form we haven’t seen yet.

[@kimbaldun]

Lol what about Kale

[@ghost-writer007]

@@camer0n541 i meant jiren bruh chill

[@Sword_Man_YT]

For me, Vegeta’s statement about Jiren further enforces the idea that this movie only follows the Manga. Especially since in the Anime Jiren is able to fight against Goku, Vegeta, and 17 at the same time and is able to defeat them with his Aura.

[@invictus6176]

its canon to both and the statement is more valid for the Manga since Vegeta was an actual threat to Jiren alone, but it could be interpreted in different ways for the Anime ig

[@Sword_Man_YT]

@@invictus6176 Yeah, exactly

[@Dial_J_for_Josh]

I was really angered when Vegeta made that statement about Jiren in Super Hero. To me it disrespected Jiren as a character saying "Oh he actually wasn't that powerful... He just properly paced himself and knew how to optimize his energy." Also I don't necessarily think Vegeta was a threat to Jiren. It was a combination of Vegeta watching his movements for the entire tournament so he saw a pattern as well as Jiren sandbagging and not taking Vegeta too seriously. I just wish Vegeta never would have used that line in Super Hero.

[@Sword_Man_YT]

@@Dial_J_for_Josh Same

[@jamainegardner4193]

@@Dial_J_for_Josh I entirely disagree as it turns Jiren from a boring generic brute to being someone who used his skills and experience like Roshi to be way more potent.

[@champgaminghero]

This is why I love this channel. With all the blanket statements that were made when describing the power levels of Super Hero, you connected them to actually make sense! I originally speculated there was no way Gohan could surpass UE or MUI this easily and this is the evidence needed to back it up for now

[@evacody1249]

It does not though. UE and MUI are on the level of the gods and maybe even above that to be on the level of the Angels.

[@pauloazuela8488]

@@evacody1249 Probably low tier angels. They are still mortals and we haven't seen how UI is done if its angel in full power only a glimpse of it with Whis dodging attacks

[@budakiel6450]

to quote tfs, "Gohan is the strongest in the universe but he doesnt do crap!"

[@godqueensadie]

Jiren's perfect power control was actually displayed in the Anime as well. His Ki barrier only blocked attacks he could see coming. If he was caught off-guard(as he was by Android 17) or overwhelmed(as with Goku and Vegeta failing to fight in sync) his passive Ki barrier wasn't strong enough to protect him from damage. But he could tank attacks far stronger than those if he knew they were coming, which heavily implies that his raw power wasn't actually that much more than Goku and Vegeta, but his Ki control was so great that with proper focus he could achieve far greater feats.

[@SoliderBoi_]

This only applies to suppressed jiren who took on SSBKKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta not Full Power Jiren

[@ekinteko]

Not quite true. Jiren was simply powerful. He had great mastery over his Ki but not as good as Goku. That's the only reason Goku was able to hang on as long as he did. That's why Goku was able to unlock UI, he was constantly underpowered in his encounters and trained to master his Ki. It was even noted that Master Roshi did have Ultra Instinct but his form was too weak to actually draw that ethereal power out.

[@ekinteko]

I used to get heated about power scaling debates, but I don't care anymore. It used to make sense in the late-stage of Dragon Ball and early-mid stage of Dragon Ball Z. But towards the end of Dragon Ball Z and most of Super it has been an inconsistent mess. Why? Because it is a Plot-Driven story. They don't care about established lore or trends or logic. Right now, Gohan can one-shot Black Frieza. Does it make sense? Nope. Do I care nope. You can have one character get all the perks, add development, and heaps of training.... and he'll still lose to an arspull by the writers. There are many fans who can write a better story and plot than Toriyama. But it's his creation, and he gets to decide what's cannon, even if that sucks or makes no sense. So I'd caution people to also not get into heated debates (eg Tien vs Krillin, Super Buu vs Kid Buu, Android 20 vs Frieza, etc etc)

[@ekinteko]

@@zerox6615 Maybe, but it's pointless to debate. Just sit back and watch things unfold from Toriyama's perspective. This may have been an R18+ esque show at one point, but now it is targeting 12 year olds. I still don't agree with you about Jiren. If Jiren had better Ki control than Goku, he would've unlocked UI before Goku and defeat everyone. To me it's obvious that he was good but what separated him was his power. It was stated outright. He surpassed Belmod in terms of raw power. Whilst Master Roshi surpassed him in terms of movement and control. Then Goku did so to him through both. But yeah, that's just what I read and watched. You can believe what you want to, or go against the canon. I'm not debating this franchise anymore, for reasons stated above.

[@flowsenpai9961]

Hella valid as to why ui kicked his ass. His movements were so RIDICULOUSLY unorthodox. His ki barrier was like: ".... Wtf...."

[@Viberaterz]

The movie is really good at scaling within itself, but has a hard time going outside of itself due to the multiple continuities

[@kevinkevin2607]

Lame nerd Gohan achieved "Beast transformation🤓" by not training at all[Practicing special beam canon which can even be done by little Pan is not real training],and by studying about insects.😂🤣

[@Shadow-yx1fo]

@@kevinkevin2607 bruh... this is literally no dif then when goku got ssj on namek, he didnt train (for the form) and only unlocked it through pure rage and sadness (raw emotion) from losing his best friend, gohan been ass pulling power levels since the bitch was 3 so i dont see how u think this ass pull is anymore ilogical than the others thats been shown in the series, gohan when 3yo went from power level of 3 to 1307 and bodied raditz and whilst fighting frieza went from 200k to a wonderous 1m... he the goat of ass pulls for being a (chosen one) typa character until the buu saga where the author brought goku back into the fray. my dude wasnt just built dif, HE WAS BORN DIF.

[@djaesir]

@@kevinkevin2607 If we try to make sense of Dragon Ball, we’ll never be done. The entire show is about convenient asspulls. As if True UI wasn’t the most illogical thing I’ve ever seen. UI is all about having a calm mind and letting your body react on its own but somehow Goku got stronger by getting mad in it. What kind of bullsh*t is that? Let’s just enjoy the show for what it is. Power scaling was destroyed a long time ago.

[@chris1549]

I still think the idea that there are 2 continuities is a vast over complication. I mean I get the fact that bit's of content in the anime is different but I just don't think that justifies saying there is a whole other continuity.

[@vegetablackpotato4700]

Yall 3 are nerds

[@NinPossible]

The soundtrack from the movie (also the one you used in the beginning of the video) is really amazing!!!

[@cynicald5776]

dragonballs power scaling is absolutely horrible. beast gohan looks cool but come on...at what point does it just become stupid that the nerd studying in his bedroom is stronger then those who have spent years training with gods and angels.

[@faizalelric]

whis said, it was his special ability...maybe only broly closer to Gohan in that ability

[@ninjafalls1739]

@@faizalelricooh I like this! Maybe Gohan was born with a similar Potential to broly but he was just raised better

[@matti.8465]

It's very possible that Broly stagnated when it comes to power by the time of Super Hero, after all, his priority shouldn't be getting stronger, but learning to control the power he already has.

[@JadedThrone957]

Flower has spoken of the truth

[@jaylenpage3137]

That's pretty much the direction it seems to be going.

[@SuckYaMudda]

Broly just naturally gets stronger tho. His priority wasnt to get stronger but rather kill Vegeta in his movie, and he still got stronger as time went on.

[@MammalianCreature]

Broly definitely doesn't need more power, he desperately needs better control. He seemingly continues getting stronger as the fight continues, but that means nothing if he's not in control.

[@padraig-bobotia-maria5176]

Thats been the theme of super

[@nyckae8587]

Power scaling in this anime has just gotten f***in ridiculous

[@pikaboy101]

6:54 "and leaves" Damn that hits hard

[@hiezenberg]

how the hell does that hit hard mate

[@roadkill1172]

@@hiezenberg Hits harder than my dad ngl

[@MaverickHunterXZA]

Gohan has basically always been the power ceiling with the caviat that he rarely reaches his full potential for more than a moment. Gohan's power is less of a plateau like it is for his father and more a spike. He demonstrates what is theoretically possible (which nicely fits with him being the study guy) rather then actually setting a bar. He might have very well been the strongest in beast form. But overall, due Gohan's nature, that's of little consequence.

[@himekomurata72]

This theory makes sense but it probably wont be the case sadly 😅

[@Amartin-mu6oj]

​@@himekomurata72 It's just how the character functions

[@DSan-kl2yc]

No he hasn't. he did that twice. And none were as crazy as saying he went from being weaker than ssg to surpassing instinct.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

​@@Amartin-mu6oj it is not.

[@Amartin-mu6oj]

@@DSan-kl2yc compelling argument

[@succubastard1019]

Gamma 1 & 2 "being on the level of Goku and Vegeta" probably refers to their SSB forms: SSB is the transformation they used the most on Earth (and the strongest one if you discount the manga), being even used by them in the fight against Broly. Additionally Ultimate Gohan, who can fight toe to toe with Gamma 1, has been previously shown to be on a level comparable to SSB Goku, in both anime and manga.

[@fireironthesecond2909]

This.

[@AniketSingh-be5gk]

I think beast gohan is as powerful as ssb with kioken

[@realdanshi]

@@AniketSingh-be5gk 💀💀💀💀

[@TheGrave6290]

@@AniketSingh-be5gk lemme clue you in Beast gohan > tui goku > ue vegeta = orange piccolo > Mui goku > gamma 1 & 2

[@lostinamattison23]

Bro said orange piccolo is stronger than mui

[@Nozem13]

Perfect video. Subbed and all. :P

[@suzurankishigane3995]

Suggestion! Retelling all of your Stories with all of these new Information about the Anime and Manga.

[@spooderdude5949]

I get the feeling that if Goku and Vegeta showed up the battle would be over super quick with with everyone's power put together.

[@alonenomore3346]

I believe that

[@stealth2811]

they would fuse just oneshot cell and then chill for 29 minutes as Gogeta to make him relax a bit because he just appear to kill/purify someone and then cease existing

[@Saakin1821]

@@stealth2811kinda not true. Gogeta would still play around. Just like he did with broly. Bcz yk gogeta could also one shot broly as soon as he came into existence. But he played around. So yeah he wouldve played around for the entirety of 30 mints against cell max as well hypothetically. And the theory about gogeta living his life of 30 mints by having fun kinda proves it

[@navinilan6993]

​@@Saakin1821gogeta whats to test his powers, as goku side of him whats to do that

[@Hamzurger]

The issue is Dr. Hedo is said to be smarter than gero, and gero made androids waaay stronger than frieza after watching the saiyan saga battles.

[@alberthgd]

I think he isn't wrong 💀 he created cell max who is stronger than SSG and SSB 💀

[@kevinkevin2607]

Lame nerd Gohan achieved "Beast transformation🤓" by not training at all[Practicing special beam canon which can even be done by little Pan is not real training],and by studying about insects.😂🤣

[@Hamzurger]

@@kevinkevin2607 bruh he states that he has been training in secret dumbass. And the special beam cannon is a hard to use and master. If you wanna downplay gohan, at least use your brain.

[@Basedbrawler]

@@kevinkevin2607DBZ fans are confusing… When Gohan studies most of his life and fights Frieza in RoF fans complain because he is too weak to fight Frieza even though at one point he could face a being stronger than him(Cell). On the other hand, fans complain because he trains on the side and unlocks a transformation they hinted at in the previous arc, even though Ssj2 Gohan and Ultimate Gohan just appeared almost completely out of nowhere… (And the Hyperbolic Time Chamber explanation is void because Gohan and Goku trained for a year and Gohan went from namek Goku level(approx.) to Ssj2, meanwhile Gohan in Super has been assumably training way more than that)

[@123GOHANZ]

@@kevinkevin2607 Gohan does train. Just not as frequently as Goku or Vegeta. Dude has a life beyond fighting

[@stinky_lizard]

Watching this, I thought it was over after the tier list, then you brought up Broly and I looked at the remaining time on the video.

[@dmonsterlove]

Man I haven't paid attention to this since the tournament of power and I saw the Broly movie. I didn't know that all of this was going on.

[@axeltheroyalnine4780]

I'm so glad you made this. The ranks in power make so much sense now with the timeliness in power adding up.

[@heliumpai7627]

AMAZING VIDEO, most powerscaling videos just take things way too slowly by going over unnecessary detail at a painful pace but this video is short and yet is still able to bring all the evidence possible to let the viewers decide their own stance. The faster presentation and editing made this video feel far more than just 10 minutes. Incredible work, Carthu.

[@FazeRustyNuts]

ADHD attention span kid found

[@coryhudek8743]

@@FazeRustyNuts u have fake bt4 content. What’s that about?

[@FazeRustyNuts]

@@coryhudek8743 what are you talking about kid? 💀 you're just mad I have the game and you don't

[@Chiplinked]

This is a great detail to point out. 10/10 presentation.

[@thomasp.1533]

Was talking about this with one of my friends a while back. That Beast is Gohan going a step further beyond 'Potential Unleashed' which was him achieving a power in his base form equivalent to any of his Super Saiyan forms. He's powerful to a point where you might as well consider him to always be Super Saiyan 3 with none of the draw backs (even if I'm pretty sure we never actually saw him go 3, hahaha). And so Beast is kinda like him being able to go Super Saiyan while already having gone Super Saiyan. And that this is with Gohan still only using normal Ki, not Godly Ki, which is totally crazy when you think about it. Super Saiyan Blue is essentially achieving a level of ki control to the degree of being able to go Super Saiyan with Godly Ki. Presumably this means that if Gohan could get Godly Ki and then train up to achieve Blue, he might be able to take it a step further and achieve a Beast version of Blue. Of course that gets into speculation, hahaha. I always liked the theory/concept that each grade of Super Saiyan was just improving output by overclocking the body, that SS, SS2, and SS3 were essentially achieving a high enough level of ki control that they can 'condense' their ki which allowed for a higher output without overtaxing the body, and that SS4 was at its core a more 'physical' transformation improving the physical body itself which in turn allowed for overall better ki production, control, and condensation. Presumably within this concept Beast would just be a further level of condensing one's ki beyond SS3. And then that Godly Ki is essentially improving your 'fuel source' to a much more efficient fuel, with Blue then being the first step of condensing it, presumably with further transformations into a Blue 2, Blue 3, or Blue Beast all being possible after that, and by mastering SS4 and Blue then a Blue 4 as well. Though I suppose that Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego kind of throw a wrench into things from there, hahaha. I remember seeing people theorizing that Perfected Ultra Instinct was going to be the precursor to SSB2, since it was a further increase to Ki control after Blue, but that's yet to be seen.

[@Thundah_Dome]

In all honesty, I could see a second broly movie where he basically looks like "ssj4" but they call it something like "primal super Saiyan". I like the idea of each Saiyan making their final "super Saiyan" form their own thing. Like they're all unique

[@CoolDanishBagel]

This is gonna be a good one!

[@Sub2Sigma]

Well considering he trained the minimum of everyone else

[@kevinkevin2607]

Are you deaf or blind? He NEVER trained! Gohan himself said that the only training that he has been doing is "practicing special beam canon". Lame nerd Gohan achieved "Beast transformation🤓" by not training at all[Practicing special beam canon which can even be done by little Pan is not real training],and by studying about insects.😂🤣

[@Tha-mountain]

so give him a semester

[@optimisticvoid1007]

Man imagine a fusion between gohan and broly.. I want to see that

[@kay_cold]

Black frezia is at the top

[@bubmario]

This was always my thing...I love Beast Gohan and was impressed with the Super Hero movie. But I think it's very difficult to just flat out say "Gohan sweeps" after everything we saw in the Granolah arc from a feats perspective. Cell Max's feats aren't really comparable with something like Gas and Granolah. But this is honestly why I love Super's storytelling, even if it is a little messy. It's not linear, it keeps people's growth and evolutions as always changing. I think Vegeta's quote when he fought Granolah exemplies this the best.

[@thundercat123studios]

Exactly. It’s not exactly clear. It’s all circumstantial.

[@Mr10before9]

I hated that film...thought it would have been a better watch on a streaming site, but was a complete waste of time to have gone to the theater to see it.

[@1999deshan]

Yeah personally I didn't like the film and how easily Gohan just becomes the strongest in the universe with barely any training or effort. I know he has the greatest potential etc but come on its pretty bullshit seeing Gohan becoming the strongest when you see all the training and adversity goku and vegeta go through

[@bubmario]

They haven't done a good job building up a lot of character moments effectively like this. I think if they would just add a few more specific moments instead of Gohan casually dropping a "you didn't think I got that rusty?" or saying "I've been practicing the Makankōsappō in private." Just put a simple flashback in to back when he was at the Cell games prior to going SSJ2. Show the PTSD, why he isn't battle-crazed like other fighters, but then remembering his reason for fighting - to protect those who can't. One of my favorite edits I've seen on KZbin put a rock cover of Gohan's Anger from SSJ2 transformation over the Beast transformation. I do really like the new soundtrack, but the cover stirred a lot of feelings and memories for me.@@1999deshan

[@soredemo22142]

​@@bubmarioI'm gonna look for that ss2 beast gohn rock edit

[@UnwantedGhost1]

It's always good when Carthage uploads a video even if it's several months apart. 😎👍

[@Stratilex]

Carthage lol

[@AhmedCool]

Bro Carthage solos early Rome empire

[@mydogbullwinkle]

I didn't realize that Gamma's 1 and 2 had personalities that resembled Vegeta and Goku, respectively, until I heard you point out that they were designed to match and counter Vegeta and Goku's combat abilities. That connects with the outcome of their fight on Beerus' planet shown in the final scene of the movie, with Vegeta, the victor, being #1, and Goku, the loser, being #2.

[@ninjanate5018]

Holy shit, I never put 2 and 2 together!

[@BasicBodThor]

I agree that the intent of the film was to show the new power ceilings...whether that is actually true based on Manga material or otherwise is the debate I think.

[@noahbussinkwilson1505]

it seems pretty plausible that the broly statement was referring to a broly that has started training with whis, which would be past any previous statements about who is the strongest in the universe, he would also be training with the greatest master of marshal arts in the universe and he is stated to have the most potential out of any saiyan so this level of growth might be consistent.

[@invictus6176]

Broly doesnt have the Potential statements of the Saiyans, + that would only apply to Goku and Vegeta since the only one he DOES have is only applicable to Goku and Vegeta and not Gohan. However yeah Current Broly~Cell Max>2018 Broly

[@CameronLondon1033]

This makes me think about a potential Gohan Vs Frieza fight. It would be interesting to see a proper rematch

[@russellfloyd3921]

gohan whooped frieza asss alrady on namek. ther are 1-1.. best outa of tyhree

[@RicardoMartinez-mw2so]

frieza is much stronger than beast gohan. black frieza is the strongest by a large margin

[@Garahan]

@@russellfloyd3921 2-1 for gohan if you count the Janemba movie

[@krulak292]

@@RicardoMartinez-mw2so Like legit, according to what? Where the fuck are all of you Frieza dick riders coming from? Superhero takes place AFTER THE MANGA. And he's stated to be the strongest being up to that point. How the fuck is Frieza even in the picture. Orange Picollo is on the level of TUI, Cell MAX is stronger but weaker than frieza and then there's Gohan. GOHANS AURA ALONE WAS ENOUGH TO HANDLE CELL MAX. You guys legit make no sense. Frieza gets his ass whooped. Fight would legit go even faster than Gogeta vs Janemba.

[@AlexM-Kaiser]

Frieza does stomp Gohan. But gohans potential is outstanding. For him to achieve beast form after such a short time is unbelievable

[@pocketplayer33]

I have a feeling that Beast Gohan was inspired by fan interpretations of Hyper Sonic. They both have white hair that slants up in the back, they both have red eyes, and they're both ridiculously, absurdly, unimaginably powerful.

[@boryskoselski5345]

ye but super sonic is just ssj

[@pocketplayer33]

@@boryskoselski5345 I said Hyper Sonic, not Super Sonic.

[@zetset8098]

First SSJ in manga color(Namek saga) had white hair and red eyes.

[@pocketplayer33]

@@zetset8098 No, that was in specific special edition prints.

[@zetset8098]

Maybe but it still was much earlier than hyper sonic(first time hear about this sonic).@@pocketplayer33

[@WarframeCrunch]

For me Beast Gohan Form looks very similar to Ultra Instinct Goku, but the difference here is that Goku in Ultra Instinct can easily avoid almost all attacks, while Gohan Beast having insane boost to Strength and Endurance.

[@LuhZay3]

Pretty much

[@tristintaylor7999]

I think what the beast transformation actually is, is layering similar to ssjb except it's Gohan's ultimate transformation with ssj on top. More specifically ssj2 since the entirety of superhero is a call back to the red ribbon army, the cell games, and a way to level the playing field for the other two most popular characters.

[@laitreedeth975]

i really can't complain cuz every single video of yours is a banger, but i do miss your what-ifs. it doesn't matter what it is, i know i'll be entertained

[@TheMysticalFox]

I'm just happy Gohan is finally getting the love and attention he deserves. He was always meant to be the strongest, IMO. The Piccolo love is great too, even if he still ended up second fiddle.

[@yarom-os9uf]

well i wouldn't say that, instead of giving him a real arc and a story and development they just threw some random shit ass power up for him and called it a day. makes no sense and if anything makes me hate the character even more. that is in my opinion at least

[@thanosbustedinyourmum]

His transformation is my favorite in the entire series and I think in the moment it was the best and the most well put together after 20 years I think it also had the most detail

[@thanosbustedinyourmum]

@@yarom-os9uf I definitely don’t think it was some random shit. I don’t think he needs some big long drawn out arc screaming for 30 minutes with 20 commercials in between. I think he got the justice he deserved, and I think he is the most powerful out of everybody now rightfully so he always has been.

[@yarom-os9uf]

i think they wanted money so they gave him an undeserved power up for no reason. remember goku and vegeta are training with the damn gods every day, yet he gets to their level if not higher because he was... angry? like common that's just bullshit.@@thanosbustedinyourmum

[@yarom-os9uf]

most detail maybe, but it was underserved and ultimately made all of what goku and vegeta did seem like a waste of time. it makes ultra instinct literally the form of the ANGELS seem kinda meh. that's a real problem if you're asking me@@thanosbustedinyourmum

[@blackstream2572]

Hmm since control over the power you already have is becoming such an important theme in super as you point out... I wonder what'll happen with Broly if he learns to completely control his rage and power in a fight? Losing control is like his thing, what makes him strong... but maybe with control he's an even more incomparable monster.

[@tatsumiuchiha5559]

I think all of it was very reasonable, and I agree, and with the added note for Broly fans (like me) that Broly isn't getting stronger anymore as he is learning to control his power. Broly's power growth is the fastest in the Universe, outpacing even Gas with the DragonBall wish... but he isn't ready to control such power. So his training is to learn to control his power rather than increase it, which is why he's falling behind for now.

[@timjimbob5839]

Boy i hope you're right

[@FreakiMuffin]

Well i do hope after defeating cell max, gohan actually starts to listen to piccolos advice and prioritizes training.

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

The obsession with making gohan the strongest is weird

[@Gohanbeastu]

​@@OMAR-vk9pi Toriyama WRITE the manga not you bro ! Power levels are for little kids 🤡 Gohan power by rage WE all knows it well.

[@Chiefteeth1]

@@OMAR-vk9pi it’s literally been happening every arc since the first chapter of dbz 😂

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

@@Chiefteeth1 not really happened in cell with actual pay off then buu was forced only for him to get eaten

[@hectorandrade8729]

While Gohan should definitely train more, it is out of character to put it above his job or his family. But instead of "training in secret" like he said he was in the movie, he should take some time to train with Piccolo, or Goku and Vegeta.

[@AtomicCortex]

I can't wait to see their next palette swap next. /s

[@ronalddoctor8622]

We will know when the tournament of power 2 starts!

[@loganbreau882]

I think your last option is the most likely because Broly has some statements that contradicts the entire Granola arc as well. The statement is "once Broly goes on a Rampage no MAN can stop him." Man in this sentence is most likely referring to mortals and even in the Granola arc Goku and Vegeta are still considered mortal since the dragon says he can't make Granola stronger than the Gods, but can make him the strongest mortal. So this would mean UI Goku and UE Vegeta wouldn't be able to stop Broly and it's debatable if them fusing is considered in this statement. So a completed Cell Max being able to beat Broly is insane if you think of it that way. Toriyama clearly wants Broly to stay ahead of Goku and Vegeta at least for a while and Beast Gohan being so strong that Cell Max couldn't even break through his aura is insane. this might even mean a current

[@zacharaymosley1315]

Plus in promotional material it was stated Broly is the strongest man (Superhero). (I didn’t read your complete comment.)

[@Cell908]

Man wrote this much and he didn’t even notice it💀💀💀 wasted time💀💀💀💀💀

[@taecampus]

I'm interested 😀 If we take the manga story we have so far, I reckon both him and Piccolo now in that circle with MUI Goku, UE Vegeta, and a full powered Broly is of course. Probably not above either Goku or Vegeta since what's happened in the story, and since they're literally been training since the Granolah Saga to surpass Black Frieza. However, if we just wanna just count DBS Broly as the last cannon material that's happened, then apparently he's stronger. 😅 Definitely an interesting topic depending on who you ask

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

dragon ball makes no sense lol

[@Koffe3BeanzYT]

@@LavaCreeperPeople Ikr. The power scaling its fricked up

[@MilestheDirtyMindedGoblin2099]

@@Koffe3BeanzYTthe power is everywhere 😰

[@taecampus]

@@LavaCreeperPeople lol yup. When it seems like it's starting to in some kinda way, a character breaks the power scaling common sense button 😅. The main 2 sagas it happens in is in Super are The Future Trunks and ToP Sagas.

[@taecampus]

@Florian Fulton lol welcome to dragon ball my friend

[@ferndo3081]

All I know is that black frieza better be aiming for beerus title and looking for those super dragon balls

[@KidaleSmith]

Sooo is Gohan really the Legendary Super Saiyan? since the Angrier he gets like Hulk or Broly, the More he power ups even without training?

[@zetset8098]

Broly Legendary Super Saiyan Gohan Legendary Super Hybrid Saiyan

[@KidaleSmith]

@@zetset8098 Facts lol

[@tiltedxfn3635]

Loved the video carthu, but I do have some questions. As for broly, wasn't the broly they were mentioning supposed to be a currently training post granolah superhero broly? If that's the case, then wouldn't whis statement not be valid for him not being able to think of any specific warriors stronger than goku and vegeta at the moment? Because we know that there is clearly a time skip from goku and vegeta arriving back on beerus planet, picking up broly to train, and the events that transpire in superhero? Would this not mean that broly could've just surpassed goku and vegeta in that time slot and they wouldn't upscale from it? This just means goku and vegeta are below broly and cell max and rival piccolo since the statements we are given could be referencing current goku and vegeta and the gammas would be equal or above to moro arc mui goku or just blue goku and vegeta from moro arc, with ultimte gohan and piccolo being relative, then beast and orange piccolo surpassing goku and vegeta from granolah arc and even right now. So this is how I would use the scaling chain. Beast gohan>black frieza (since we know broly was hiding from frieza)>cell max>orange piccolo>=PUI goku and UE vegeta>=Gamma 1 and 2 since they were able to do damage to cell max, albeit with self destruction and still lost to piccolo. It would be great if i could hear your thoughts, @Carthu's Dojo.

[@cosmalade]

if you do another "what if" for dragon ball, a setting where Frieza never decided to destroy Planet Vegeta would be pretty interesting, considering that's pretty much what started it all

[@worsethanyouthink]

Broly may be currently weaker, especially since he has never had control of his power, we could assume than that he has never been able to hone said power because he wasn't able to learn from his battles or utilize stronger techniques, plus he hasn't started learning to use God ki yet so it could just be a matter of time before broly surpasses the z warriors again, but that would require them writing character arcs for anyone that wasn't on namek

[@Rutger360x]

I love this comparison it makes a lot of sense.

[@AhmedCool]

I am pretty sure beast is his final form. I think the beast form infact is, a super version of the ultimate form. Unlocking it through rage and releasing much more of your potentinal when in the ultimate form unlocks the form that fits you most. Piccolos is orange piccolo and Gohan's is beast Gohan. That's why it is a completely new and unique transformation. But that's just a theory..

[@Supiragon1998]

I hope that's true

[@crimsonhawk5188]

Except the creator said he took out the " final " part off the form name so there's room for more just incase he/they wants to add more lol. It's also been stated that the forms are evolutions of potential unleashed which contradict what we've been told about potential unleashed in the past XD. But we'll see in a few months (if we're still around.) What they have in store for us.

[@Ikeai-zv8lv]

@@crimsonhawk5188 I thought I was the only one who realized this. Potential Unleashed was always Gohans full potential including the rage boosts, but then Dragon Ball Super says Gohan Beast is an evolution of Potential Unleashed combined with his rage boosts. Also if Gohan had the power to automatically increase his power to past God level, why didn't he do that against Buutenks? Gohan Beast would be justified if he was confirmed to train with Whis and unlocked God ki or something because that would justify his potential increasing that much.

[@cringekiller348]

@ikeai 2000 Gohan was training for a long time

[@Ikeai-zv8lv]

@@cringekiller348 Yeah, but when he fought Piccolo he had just back to the same level he was at in the buu saga and then suddenly, he's swapping hands with Blue Goku. Also it doesn't matter if Gohan was training as SSG was supposed to be that level that normal training couldn't get you to. In Z, Gohan trained for a year if I remember correctly in the time chamber but he wasn't anywhere near the level of Majin Buu but now every character can get stronger than Super Vegito simply by getting punched and powering up without little to no training at all. Edit: In other words, Gohan in Super is the equivalent of Gohan from the Saiyan Saga getting angry and surpassing Super Vegito. That's the level of power leaps Gohan and really a lot of Super characters take.

[@taecampus]

8:19 Oooooooooohhhh. I always found that line that Vegeta stated about Jiren completely baffling. Especially since Jiren was completely bodying literally everyone in the tournament with ease or at the very most, moderate pressure (before MUI Goku). But I forgot that the Manga Jiren wasn't as broken as his anime counterpart.

[@4DHecker]

I completely agree with your ranking. People are just saying Beast Gohan is THAT strong even though we don't know that much about this transformation yet. We should just wait for the next time we see it.

[@notori-di5et]

I swear gohan meat rider be using toriyama name for no reason and says oh toriyama says he the strongest so he is like wtf 💀

[@LuhZay3]

So toriyama is wrong?

[@PhantomStriker04]

8:16 this explains (a bit) why Jiren's fighting style in Dragon Ball FIghterZ is less aggressive and more based on "bait and punish".

[@whiteyaksha7232]

I'm just glad they finally put some respect on Gohans name .

[@desertphoenix7908]

Honestly I like the concept of 2 continuities in dragon ball it makes it seem as if every episode and every manga page is both canon despite being completely different having the anime follow the manga is fine but super wasn't only about fighting some of the slice of life gave us a peek into the life of the Z fighters when not fighting. Yes somethings in the anime are silly or bad like animation and making characters look bad but in a way Super is it's own show having it diverge from the manga will really show how creative the team can get especially with the resources they have from the first season

[@godslayer8894]

Like he said they're slowly starting to make both the anime and manga fit properly together.

[@Beast2TheGods]

Too be honest. Frieza with his amazing potential should be the strongest for a loooong time. He got to god levels in months. He trained for 10 years this time. The only people I can see catching him quickly are Uub and Broly. I say Broly because he got to god levels in hours and Uub because he technically already has god ki and supposedly the most potential of them all. Just needs training.

[@projekttaku1]

Golden freeza could've just been noobie gains tho. Maybe he actually slowed down and is only like, 2-3x full power Gas and goku and vegeta. Its shown that even a small difference, like with vegeta and pui pui, can make a huge change in power, or maybe he took after Jiren and started using his strength more efficiently.

[@zetset8098]

Imagine og Perfect Cell or Perfect Cell Max training 10 years.

[@mikelxanadu]

Diminishing returns, bro. He’d one shot Beerus if he got the same gains all 10 of those years. Assuming Freeza goes from solar system level to universal in a few months in his initial BoG training, that means he multiplied his power ten octillion (a ten followed by 25 zeroes) in a few months. Giving him 1,200 months would be a four DECILLION times increase in power over his Tournament of Power form. A four followed by THIRTY FOUR zeroes. He’d destroy Beerus with a wave of his hand. For reference, this would be Black Freeza’s multiplier post ToP if your theory was correct: 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

[@bottleofgreed4415]

Man, the Red Ribbon Jokestars casually making creatures strong as Goku or Vegeta at THAT point in their stage of power is straight cap

[@divineshrek3307]

The problem with the whole "They're close to Goku and Vegeta" information that they give for certain villains or "side characters" is that, they don't specify what form they are close to, we're left to guess or assume, which creates. . .controversy. Which is why I appreciate you kind of pointing that out in 5:00

[@padraig-bobotia-maria5176]

thats stupid, they stay goku and vegeta when they transform

[@AGGSab]

If the enemies were to “rival” Goku and Vegeta they would “rival” them at their best. That statement would be worthless if they could just go super saiyan or beyond and mop the floor with the people they were just scaled in relation to. There would be no stakes if the enemies were to only rival base Goku and Vegeta

[@EmperorSonGoku]

@@padraig-bobotia-maria5176 first of all, if you don’t have god ki you can’t sense it. So how could gohan and piccolo accurately gauge their power? They can’t. The last time they saw them was during the moro arc. The gammas are relative to their blue forms during the moro arc. Their blue forms during the granolah arc have gotten huge power amps to the point that they can’t even be compared anymore. The actual scale would work out to be: black frieza>TUI goku>UE vegeta>gohan and broly>cell max>jiren>piccolo.

[@padraig-bobotia-maria5176]

@@EmperorSonGoku only in your head

[@papri9090]

​@@EmperorSonGoku agreed 💯. People are just bawling their eyes out for gohan beast as if there's no sunday.

[@ltreanor99]

We haven't seen the true potential of Beast Gohan yet... We will see very soon how far gohan is stronger than everyone else. We are going to get a Gohan and black frieza fight when the animé returns I can feel specially after Gohan mentioning to frieza that he will stop him the next time he attacks earth.

[@furfekkia93]

You probably don't know how the japanese manga/anime industry works. If Goku is the character people want, Goku will be the strongest

[@internetcitizen3224]

​@@furfekkia93not happen on Naruto

[@lufasu7542]

scariest thing is that human can create thing that rival gods im sure if given enough time they might create something can fight against zeno

[@j-p4194]

With Jiren, he commands energy through his eyes and barely lifts a finger. He's gotten this far without facing a foe as skilled as Goku or Vegeta so, like Broly, he can still transcend everyone with the same amount of intense training as the duo went through. Remember, both Kale and Broly have god-tier power upon their first super saiyan transformations and both are just acting on raw talent while still trying to control their rage. So, yes, Goku was indeed afraid truly because even if he was at max power, if Broly figured out SSJ2 that would be the end of him. With Gohan, we all know that he's the best; his latent potential is the highest of all the saiyans and with very little effort as we've seen him grow up. If Gohan truly wished to become strong in the way Goku and Vegeta want it, there's no doubt he'd be the strongest but I doubt that will ever happen. What I mean is Goku and Vegeta will never truly be #1 strongest due to their transformations, latent ability and prowess BUT they will be the most skilled giving them the widest arensal to work with. While, they may never truly realize that fact, Goku and Vegeta will be the strongest without actually being the "strongest" lets just say "most capable" compared to the other heroes.

[@faceuphoy2981]

The real question for how strong Beast Gohan is, isn't simply asking how strong, but more asking how the whole Potential Unleashed (PU) form works. When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kai, he was told that was his 'complete potential', he no longer needed to turn Super Saiyan, because he was naturally stronger, but that doesn't really add up to previous statements. Gohan had his potential unlocked in the Namek Saga as well, but didn't suddenly become as strong as his Buu Saga self (There are some arguments that it was because Grand Elder Guru was old, but either way...). It seems much more likely that the "unlock" only puts out as much power, as the person realistically has the ability to gain upon training. If Gohan had continued to train after the Cell Games, to the same degree that Vegeta did (maybe even training with him; possibly including the time chamber), Gohan would likely be leagues above his Potential Unlocked State without even having his potential unlocked; NOT that he still couldn't have it unlocked. I think of it similarly to Babidi's magic, which allowed Vegeta to close the gap between himself and Goku (supressed), and break through the SSJ wall. In Gohan's case, it allowed him to break past the SSJ2 wall and achieve a power even greater than Goku's/Gotenk's SSJ3. Potential Unleashed in its most basic expression, seems to function as a written in "wall breaker"; very similar to Gas's ability when he wishes to be the strongest. It seems to allow Gohan to scale either slightly above, or noticeably above an enemy in a time where it's necessary for him to do so. That would explain why Gohan, after re-unlocking his Potential Release State, was able to match SSJB Goku. Gohan might not be able to feel God Ki (I say 'might' because I don't think he ever stated himself that he couldn't and Elder Kai's Magic is Divine in its own right, but he could clearly understand the realm of power, using Frieza's Golden Form as reference). So, using the "wall breaker" explanation, When Gohan trained with Piccolo, after training on his own, and having the Universe Tournament Exhibition, the "wall" he had to break was the Godly levels of power of SSJG and SSJB. It's also never clearly said that he COULDN'T use the Super Saiyan forms again, just that at the time, there wasn't a need, because with his increase in power, he was already beyond the SSJ forms. We also see in this movie that he can cycle through the forms as he chooses, SSJ, SSJ2, and PU. It's clear that Potential Unleashed is his SSJ3*, but his PU Form essentially takes over his Base Form, which as his Base Form grows stronger, his PU Form does as well, because there's more power to draw from. With all of that exposition out of the way, here's what I think. I think that Potential Unlock is a multi-level form, much like the SSJ transformations. Once your potential is unlocked, as you age, train, and learn, your body changes and your mind changes too. Your potential can never fully met because everyone can grow stronger. What happens is you hit a power ceiling, like Vegeta in the Buu Arc. When Gohan fought Buu, that was all the power he would have had access to, at that point. When he unlocked it again against Piccolo, his body adjusted to the level of power he was striving to meet, breaking through the power ceiling. After training constantly for years before the movie takes place, then fighting against the Gamma's, and then Cell Max, out a need for higher power, and to protect his daughter/mentor, he broke that power ceiling again, but because he was already in PU, it resulted in an actual transformation. Obviously the name 'Beast' is canon, but I think the form is better received and explained as Full Potential Super Saiyan 2; FPSSJ2 for short. It explains the transformation, the major leap in power, and the headcanon that it's never stated he Can't go SSJ while using Potential Unleashed, he just never tried, since he was told he wouldn't need to use the forms because PU was stronger (strong enough for the time).

[@luisbencomo9761]

Sorry but I ain’t reading allat

[@user-np7gu4mb5e]

🤓🤓🤓🤓

[@gliizee]

Vegeta already had SSJ2

[@faceuphoy2981]

@@gliizee You are correct, however it still doesn't change the fact that he needed Babidi's magic to overcome the gap in power between himself and Goku, so it would still be correct to say, he did still need it to break through the Super Saiyan wall. He just wasn't breaking from SSJ to SSJ2, he was essentially going from SSJ2 grade 1 to 4 (or Mastered SSJ2).

[@johnpeters3466]

Go sleep😂what a speech

[@glennbriggs6490]

There yas go. Irrefutable facts directly from toriyama himself. And uet, carthu here's gone and basically just nailed not just one point, but ALL the points that there is to cover. Love watching these videos. Very insightful and very helpful 😊

[@MegamanStarforce2010]

the broly argument is a little weird. tori's saying he was activated early else he could beat broly. but the big thing is, cell was already completed body-wise as per the movie, the only thing specified to be incomplete is his *mind control* which was the part that was disrupted. so actually tori's only referring to the idea that a complete cell max could theoretically be controlled to beat broly, but in this mind state he can't be controlled to do so. his power remains the same.

[@malichieaton4970]

What’s the order in which I should be watching this series 🙃

[@priestesslucy3299]

I've been waiting so long for Carthu DBSSH coverage 💞💞💞 I'll try to schedule an opening to see the premier

[@CarthusDojo]

Hope you like it!

[@KDuff-2015]

I hope the anime adaption of Cell Max gives us a perfected version with the OG Cell’s memories, that way we can have a real rematch between Gohan & Cell

[@UnwantedGhost1]

Unless the officials don't repeat the first anime series.

[@ankitparmar9641]

I didn't want it to animate. But they will. I wonder if it will happen they also have to animate broly arc

[@KDuff-2015]

@@ankitparmar9641 they said they skipped Broly specifically because of the success of the movie Toriyama wanted to move on

[@Nick-xf9dl]

I like the thought of it being Frieza - Gohan - Goku/Vegeta. So that way Frieza is something to overcome again and it HAS to end with Vegeta finally getting revenge for his race and using hakai in a perfected UE form to finally rid the universe of its emperor.

[@manuelluke7715]

That would be cool

[@RicardoMartinez-mw2so]

gohan is not stronger than goku and vegeta. frieza is 10x stronger than all of them combined.

[@sageeli788]

​@@RicardoMartinez-mw2soyea no, you just downplayed tf out of Frieza

[@dontawilliams8433]

@@sageeli788not really

[@sageeli788]

@@dontawilliams8433 idk, frieza trained for 10 years man. He specifically said he doesn't want to lose to a saiyan ever again

[@Buhebfuhvnuhefnfhudnfuhnwdfuhd]

I swear if gohan doesnt keep training after that, id be so mad

[@filipbrcko]

we just have to wait manga version of beast gohan and oramge piccolo and see toyotaros perspective. than we will be 100 percent sure who is the strongest. also in the end of granolah sags whis told goku and vegeta that the strongest in the universe is maybe yet to be born. perhaps he is thinking of gohan in the future.

[@lgdry90]

Yes! Finally someone who got it right.. with your second argument you hit it in the head.. Ppl are missing to granola arc, and aren’t understanding the placement of this video. BF>UIG>UEV>BG>BRY>CM>OP. Side note.. Really interested to see the development of Broly. Wonder if/once he gets himself in control what new transformations and arc he will have.

[@thedarklightskin]

Broly is absolutely last place

[@zsoltbende5092]

What the fuck are those shortenings my guy

[@skex5208]

Oh one important thing is that super hero plays in the anime timeline, so black friezer and ultra ego vegeta dont exist yet. In the manga they could scale this differently since its been said that anime and manga are gonna play in different timelines.

[@jrobdoesgames]

If I am correct, I believe it was said in the DBZ Cell Saga that Gohan holds back in fear of destroying everything/hurting those he cares about. Of course, that was a long time ago, but it could still be plausible. Piccolo even says in the movie that Gohan has the power to become the strongest being on Earth, now that could just be Earth, or he could mean in terms of everyone who lives there. Also with the fact that hybrids have a lot more potential than full-blooded saiyans, it's quite likely Gohan does have the potential to rise up above Frieza. It would be cool to see him actually do that in DBS eventually, I personally think it would be more interesting than Goku or Vegeta unlocking some random new power for the millionth time. Also something I've thought about is how cool it would be to see a "Full Beast" form. Kind of like how Super Saiyan turns more "ape-like" every time it's bumped up to SSJ2, SSJ3 and so forth. I mean, the form is literally called Beast. Just sharing a few thoughts here.

[@differentperson6790]

I really feel like "The Strongest In The Universe" will be an entirely new character with insane potential/power, but I hope that's not the case.

[@agentnukaz1715]

i hope not, black frieza is already retardaradly strong

[@thewitness257]

@@agentnukaz1715 retarded isn't the word I'd use to emphasis someone's power

[@agentnukaz1715]

@@thewitness257 nobody cares 😴

[@wimaswisnu1184]

Agreed, and I don't think beast Gohan is as strong as MUI, but he is definitely on par with SSG form

[@agentnukaz1715]

@@wimaswisnu1184 gohan in his ultimate form was shown to compete ssjb before the top. It's safe to say gohan beast is above ssjb

[@kalebblair4073]

It might be wishful thinking but it seems like he sees the error he made in not building up Gohan. During the Cell Saga Gohan became a lot of people’s favorite, what he did to him after was a crime lol. Hope this is a shift in making Gohan a top tier player in Dragon Ball

[@imhappy._.]

To be fair to Toriyama tho, he WAS building up Gohan to be the strongest as far as the Saiyan saga. It's just that he wanted to end DBZ on the Cell saga so when the series continued, the way he handled Gohan was clumsy. He couldn't shift the focus to Gohan but he couldn't ignore him as well.

[@koleisme5048]

I liked Gohan from the Saiyan saga too well that's about it. In my opinion he is completely over rated and over hyped. Also Saiyan human hybrids having more potential is completely bullshit because Goku trained hard for several years just for Gohan to get a Little angwy and become stronger

[@watever9162]

​@@koleisme5048why don't it make sense ? Baby Gohan beat / f'd raditz and full adult goku team up with piccolo can't beat raditz . If Gohan can do that as baby he certainly has all the potential to surpass him only need focus on him tho .

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

@@imhappy._.false rumor he never wanted to end it there he shifted away from gohan cause he’s a trash main character

[@joshuafallet5690]

I agree with the manga scaling. Freiza is def the big bad and?sets the bar for power. That's just the way it comes off. Freizas rerrible potential has been revealed and i believe they set ut up that way in purpose. Whatever happens next in the manga is going to be great. All these new forms at once, all of them unexplored. And freiza is once again reclaimed his throne as the emperor of the universe

[@schulteq]

I think the whole point of beast gohan is to bring back the idea that gohan is the strongest person in the universe. Frankly, the end of the granolah arc could be what ties in this movie to the manga in saying that gohan is the strongest and that he has awoken his true power once again. I may be spouting nonsense because I don’t truly know the ins and outs as I don’t keep up with much info but that’s my current head canon

[@okok-vt9gw]

I really agree with everything, personally. think your 2nd power scale was close to if not entirely perfect. One inconsistency though, Goku and Vegetas new forms are god ki based, yet earlier in battle of God's it was stated the only way to read God ki is by possessing it yourself, so how did anybody scale goku and vegeta? I don't recall Gohan or Piccolo attaining God ki, and I'm pretty sure the guy who made the androids doesn't have God ki either.

[@jozillaarevalo1747]

This is an excellent point and one of the downfalls of dbs after the golden frieza arc as now everyone can match up to ssg or sub. Like only piccolo (kinda) or Dende can sense it cause their technically gods. But how tf can the RR army sense God ki it just makes the God forms seem like anyone can achieve that kind of power.

[@Wonderkid44]

It’s bad writing.

[@zgsfreaky9102]

Literally nobody has god ki except for goku and vegeta and it used to be nobody can sense it unless you have it yourself. Now all of a sudden an orange piccolo and gohan beast are on the same level as an angeltrained mastered ultra instinct with god ki and everything lol. Writers are on drugs

[@jackour8167]

They can still feel the pressure of the power.

[@tavishsaini6821]

@@zgsfreaky9102 exactly power scaling is more than just changing hair color , u see we have seen the whole series how difficult it was for them to fight frieza then scaling it up to hit then jiren then broly not to forget goku took out ultimate gohan with 1 hit before top and its not just about reaching the level but to improve it like blue evolution and here comes a guy angry for 15 mins scaling up to the gods like its a joke it just disbalances the whole arc and im also stressed about android 17 matching SSB

[@coolmauricenapper]

God knows what branch that god Kai was that awakened gohans powers if he was even post to do that

[@pooolish334]

This movie is the embodiment of the statement "undeserved power boost"

[@bhavneetsingh2422]

The movie displays a lot of similarities to the Cell Saga at the end of which gohan emerged as the strongest amongst the Z fighters. This movie may be a reference to him being the strongest of all but we haven't really seen the true extent of gohan's new power. We will have to see where the manga picks up as gohan's and piccolo's new forms are rumoured to become manga canon after the current Superhero saga.

[@MonstersFynest]

What would have made more sense for 'Beast' gohan... they should have uses the idea of super saiyan 4. Since gohan had that special power within. He could have used his smarts to contain that beast and use it to his advantage. Would have been epic to introduce that into the lore going forward.

[@ArchaicLoL]

Gohan said in his sparring match with his dad before the tournament of power he wasn't going to rely on Super Saiyan anymore, and he was going to go a different route. This was in the anime which is not the same as the manga but it makes sense because the entire time in the movie he was fighting in Ultimate form which is stronger than his SS2 form.

[@Kedilaa]

this didn't age that well

[@GabeIG]

yeah as if this isn't a 1 year old video or anything

[@Nickxmw]

Gohan and piccolo getting this power up was kinda amazing to see Im waiting for the next anime of dragon ball (I don't read manga

[@JustADemon2023]

Alright, I think we should talk about a subject related to DBS Super Hero that I think is misrepresented; Jiren isn’t stated to be weak by Vegeta. He states that “Jiren was a overwhelming strong fighter” and then states “We’re not too far from him now” when referring to their Base Forms (because it wouldn’t make sense if he was referring to UI or UE since they already surpassed him with those forms). Vegeta was focused on mental training due to the mindset Jiren had throughout most of the Tournament of Power. In martial arts, being physically strong isn’t everything; learning how to be calm, focused, patient and precise during battle can turn the tides of any battle (I believe that Vegeta definitely got this idea from his time spent on Yardrat). For example, Jiren and Broly are somewhat comparable in strength, but the way they handle a fight shows that one is clearly superior to another and that’s what Vegeta was so mainly talking about (it’s like that time when Goku managed to kick Jiren out of the ring; it wasn’t done through power, but by Goku using clever tactics that Jiren almost lost against). It’s very important for him to focus on this since UE’s power is required to face Black Frieza, but the way it effects the users mindset is ultimately its greatest weakness (the ego making Vegeta rely on taking damage to fuel his growth while also making him easier to defeat since he didn’t fight with strategy over just jumping in with pure thoughtless blind arrogance), so if Vegeta can learn how to be more calm, focused, patient and precise in UE, he could master this power and make it actually useful for their upcoming battle. With all this said, the way I’d scale everyone here would be Frieza (at the very top), Goku (Saiyan Instinct), Vegeta (Ultra Ego), Jiren (Hidden Power), Broly (Max SS Ikari), Gohan (Beast), Cell Max (Imperfect), Piccolo (Orange) and the Gammas (at the very bottom).

[@julian6867]

I ain’t reading all’at but the your tier list is perfection.

[@JustADemon2023]

@@julian6867 I’m sorry that it was too long for you to read, but I appreciate the compliment.

[@zgsfreaky9102]

Literally the only logical, rational list ive seen on the entire internet. Thank you. But to be fair the writing is super is far from logical lol so who knows what the real scaling is. Yours makes complete sense thougj

[@JustADemon2023]

@@zgsfreaky9102 Thank you. From all the statements I read from Toriyama, I feel like fans misunderstood a lot of what he was saying, but if I’m wrong, then Black Frieza isn’t that threatening anymore and Gohan’s power is the biggest ass-pull in the whole series. I know it may sounds prideful and arrogant to say that I must be right, but I think it’s better if my scaling was actually correct so Gohan and Piccolo had to train harder for the eventual battle with Frieza.

[@zgsfreaky9102]

@@JustADemon2023 Lol no I agree but from what Ive been reading Gohan and Piccolo might actually be on par with or stronger than goku and vegeta which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Gohan Beast should be kkx20/blue evolution level at best and Piccolo maybe like ssb goku level at best. But whatever the writing hasnt made any sense since they ignored all the concepts of god ki and angel training that goku and vegeta have been doing. Broly shouldnt even have been nowhere near them either tbh.

[@kingzeno276]

Now I want to see this

[@moalex6617]

Im not a hardcore fan that follows everything that happens in the Dragon Ball universe, but I'm certain the reason why a lot of people question Gohan and Cell Max is because of the suddenness of all these power-ups. Sure, it's been mentioned before that Goku and Vegeta are reaching their max potential that even zenkai boost no longer grants any significant power-ups to them. Their progression is only going to slow ever more even when they're training with Gods and Angels. However, regardless of that info, Goku and Vegeta have been consistently training and fighting. They've been the powerhouse of the entirety of Universe 7 with the exception of deities through all their battles and sacrifices, and we've witnessed them be pushed to be stronger time and time again. Yet suddenly these new Androids rivals their power because the story demands it. Yeah, totally make sense that a mortal scientist even with data can create robots powerful enough to match two saiyans with powers that can surpass gods of destruction. Since it's been pointed out that Jiren is actually stronger than his Universe's God of destruction, it only makes sense that with all their power-ups since the ToP, Goku and Vegeta are vastly stronger than Gods of destruction as well. Like, you're really going to expect people to accept that a scientist out there can just pop out robots stronger than Gods of Destructions leisurely? The story so far have made it clear that Angels are so strong that they're straight up not allowed to fight anyone seriously otherwise they vanish, and these Angels are responsible for training gods of destructions, and Goku and Vegeta are literally training with Whis and Beerus. Sure, it's not just any scientist, it's Gero's grandson, Dr. Hedo. But who cares? Doesn't change the fact that Toriyama just allowed a nerd out there to create androids that can take on gods. Above all else, expect Gohan and Piccolo to just catch up at the snap of a finger? Gohan got a bit angry and boom, becomes stronger than two Saiyans constantly training and fighting to become stronger? Sure, it's repeatedly mentioned about how high Gohan's potential can be, and that was the whole point of the Super Hero movie. But to just hand the title of strongest over to him simply because he got angry? Then there's Piccolo, catching up to Goku and Vegeta because of a wish? Like damn, power-ups and universal powers are just being given away like a bargain sale. Maybe all the humans should find Shenron and ask to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta now. All the hard-work, sacrifices, training? All useless. There's no reward to training, just make a bloody wish or get angry. Long story short, power-levels are a fucking joke, and it's all over the place. There's no consistency at all. Toyotaro, Toriyama- even their decisions on power-scaling are a joke because they'll just make whoever they want to be as powerful as they need to be when time comes without any good narrative or build-up to it. Cell Max, Gohan, Piccolo, Black Freeza, all their insane power-ups are as ridiculous as Jiren's reason for becoming so powerful. His master was killed, so he vowed to become strong to bring evil to Justice? Vegeta's entire planet was blown up for crying out loud.

[@deeznuttes9340]

its been like that since z wtf did people expect

[@gustavosifuentes3991]

one thing stan lee said is whoever the script writer wants to win, will win so who cares about power scaling. sadly, he was right. makes sense tho.

[@almir908]

​@@deeznuttes9340give me an example how that compares to dragonball z plot. The random ass pulls on power ups were never this bad in Z.

[@dankerbell]

i mean ultra ego was foreshadowed in the arc it was introduced in, hakai might've existed since the beginning of super but ultra ego isn't just the power to use hakai blasts

[@dankerbell]

also you could argue that beast was foreshadowed when he said that he wanted a unique form no one else had before the tournament of power

[@Alassandros]

It's wild how powerful Gohan got with one transformation. Insane even. The Beast transformation's multiplier is upwards of 100s of millions of times base. Insane. Just crazy.

[@heathenpolska]

I really hope they don't leave Broly behind in the dust. I'm a big fan of him and would love to see him get a new form that's on par with at least Goku and Vegeta. I would also love to see him team up with them. Having Broly join their squad would be awesome. They would definitely be an unstoppable force if that happened. Just imagine a new villain showing up and now it's not only Goku and Vegeta defending the universe but also Orange Piccolo, Beast Gohan and a new and improved Broly. The villain would probably shit his pants lol. It would be like a new age Z Squad.

[@33XnightkilerX33]

What do you mean a new form on par worh goku/vegeta? Broly’s SSJ form almost scales above theirs. His LSSJ form is most likely either higher or equel with ultra ego / instinct. Now way in hell Ssb gogeta is weaker then Instinct/ego alone.

[@godslayer8894]

@@33XnightkilerX33 they actually have been heavily hinting Broly will get a new form eventually once he learns to control his power he will attain a new Evolution / transformation unique to himself but similar to Goku's but different they've been hinting at this a lot in vjump scans

[@33XnightkilerX33]

@@godslayer8894 i haven’t heard that before to be honest. What could that be

[@sarcasticsaber8902]

He held his own against SSB Goku (and he didn't even have Super Saiyan yet!!) And they didn't finish that fight. So imagine if that fucker reached the God forms.

[@rifarira9160]

I honestly hope brolly instead of following the rainbow hair route he sticks to the saiyan root. Give him the LSSJ 4 instead of LSSR or LSSB.

[@kevinblair78]

Shrek vs Goku

[@kevinblair78]

OK

[@zy7465]

Manga and anime can't be equated in terms of power scaling, because the anime follows Toriyama's version. All characters in the Super Hero movie have power levels based on the Broly arc, so it's safe to say that characters like Piccolo in his orange form and Gamma are equivalent to Super Saiyan Blue, given the reference to Ultimate Gohan.

[@yukinoyukinoshita9]

You really put Picolo before Jiren the green guy finally having a power up 😂😂🎉

[@odakidakida9193]

imagine if Dr. Hedo managed to recreate a much powerful but a good Cell, either from creating from surviving data or upgrading a Cell Junior