Is Catch Wrestling actually part of HEMA?

This is a question I've asked myself many times. So I figured I'd ask you!
Limited Edition Fight Team T-Shirt only available until the end of September: my-store-ec0f8e.creator-sprin...

[@hailhydreigon2700]

The CACC community can reach out to some HEMA tournaments and hold events and seminars. No doubt the BJJ people in HEMA would love that. They'd just need to embrace the "historical" part more. Maybe help with reconstruction of Ringen or something. I know that's what Catch Wrestling Alliance is doing on Facebook and it's a hit with the HEMA Grapplers group. To be honest, I just want HEMA to take itself more seriously. More athleticism, and learning from modern arts to improve the talent pool of competition. I also want CACC to sideskirt Jiu Jitsu and just do it's own thing without constantly falling back on Sakuraba's victory over the Gracies to seem legitimate. The two communities working together to improve reach and ability can only be a good thing, in my opinion. And if they don't... well then they'll still come together eventually, but in a worse way.

[@junichiroyamashita]

This would solve both of their problems at the same time. Seems almost too perfect. Would add Savate to it,as kicking is an undervalued element of HEMA.

[@formlessone8246]

All I am sure of is regardless of whether you consider CACC part of HEMA, HEMA people are going to be interested, but they are not going to want to learn from people who refer to them as D&D nerds like Josh Barnett did in the interview with him. It's needlessly hostile, ignorant, and insulting to both HEMA people and RPG fans alike, and it's poor marketing in general. BJJ didn't get as big as it is by turning off potential students simply because they came from other arts, they welcomed students of all backgrounds and even advertised it as a good art for the smaller guy. It's not true, but it is how they advertised it. Assuming HEMA guys are all unfit suggests to me that unfortunately, this channel has been outside the HEMA scene for too long. A longsworder is not going to be built like a dedicated wrestler because speed tends to prevail outside armored bouts, and for better or worse, longsword is disproportionately popular among HEMA disciplines. And even if it were true, it's not really much more true than other arts once you account for the soccer moms and casual practitioners who just want to look cool rather than compete. Tying CACC overly much to the need for conditioning and competition will only serve to drive away potential students towards less demanding but also more friendly arts like BJJ, point karate, and longsword. In fact, I suspect that has already happened.

[@Waitingnomad]

My two cents as someone who is both an active HEMA instructor (mostly longsword and dagger) and unarmed combat athlete (submission grappling, wrestling BJJ, MMA etc.): Josh Barnett is not exactly wrong. A significant amount of HEMA practitioners are unfit, and of the ones who are fit, there are very few who have comparable levels of athletic conditioning to people who compete in other martial arts like BJJ, CACC, Wrestling, etc. This is a big part of what stops HEMA being taken seriously as a martial art by the general MA community - it's practitioners don't train or compete like serious martial artists. It isn't a matter of longsword fencers not being built like wrestlers, it's a matter of the generally low level of athleticism in HEMA in general. Naturally HEMA is going to attract a lot of nerdy types, and this is fine. Lots of people come to train martial arts with poor fitness hoping to improve it. You'll always see a range of people in any club, from the extremely fit competition athletes to comparably fit serious practitioners, to the less fit casual hobbyists or various newbies. However, if you look around a submission grappling or wrestling competition, near every single person there will be in shape, or at least still fairly fit and strong with high body fat if looking up to heavyweight or open divisions. , If you look around your average HEMA tournament, the average fitness levels are closer to a professional darts competition than a martial arts comp. HEMA is a martial art and sport in which it is *unusual* for its 'competition athletes' to be in shape. Moving on to the point about longsword fencers not being built like wrestlers: you are right that your typical (modern) longsword fencer isn't usually built like a wrestler, but the problem is that according to every single historical source we have on the subject, . Ott Jud, Fiore, Lichetenhauer are all very clear on this: combat wrestling is the foundation to all longsword practice (and armed weapon use generally); and every single historical longsword fencer would have been wrestling since childhood and would have continued to extensively train unarmed fighting alongside their weapons training. All historical fencing sources *assume that the person using their techniques already knew how to wrestle*. So if all you want to do is point fence with a longsword then that's fine, but with the very necessary understanding that this is not at all how longsword was taught or practiced historically. So moving on to conditioning: anyone who understands grappling, especially wrestling, knows that conditioning is a huge part of it. You cannot divorce conditioning from training grappling arts (or any martial art). There is straightforwardly no way to even practice it safely without a baseline of conditioning to prevent injury; and likewise many of the techniques are only functional (or work at all) if you're strong and athletic enough to pull them off. You cannot practice martial arts effectively or safely without strength and conditioning. And likewise, you can't get any good at them unless you're willing to spar and compete under competitive rulesets (where conditioning is even more important). Training regularly with intensity will build this up naturally, but HEMA classes very rarely train at an intensity necessary to build good skills, conditioning and fitness. HEMAists get away with being a lot less athletic than they ought to be because modern HEMA competitions are mostly just stylised Olympic fencing, where competitors fight for points and reset, with holds and grapples frequently being banned; or rendered functionally pointless even where permitted, due to judges with pure fencing backgrounds who don't know how to judge grappling immediately ordering a reset as soon as there's even moderate contact. Tl;dr, fencing without wrestling is an incomplete art; and neither can be learned or trained effectively without regularly training at intensity, rolling, wrestling and sparring against a resisting opponent. @@formlessone8246

[@formlessone8246]

@@Waitingnomad I think you missed the main point: Josh Barnett's comments insulted not one, but two groups of people with overlapping but distinct interests. This is a terrible way to get people into your gym or lineage. A martial art's effectiveness is not actually it's primary selling point. They need good ambassadors or good marketing, and ideally both. The reason people know Karate from Japan rather than it's real birthplace of Okinawa is that at the end of the 19'th century, the best practitioner from Okinawa had poor people skills. He kicked the ass of the best Japanese practitioner who was actively promoting the art, and it backfired. His style being more authentic didn't matter, because people didn't want to learn from him, as he was a poor teacher and an unpleasant person. Eventually he went back to Okinawa and took his knowledge with him, forcing modern Karate practitioners like Jesse Enkamp to do HEMA-like research in both Okinawa and China just to decipher the many forgotten applications of the katas that could have been preserved if the Okinawan practitioners of the 19'th century had been less egotistical about being the better fighters and understood what their Japanese students were doing to promote the art elsewhere even though they were adding elements from Savate and ignoring the grappling elements because they already studied judo and jujitsu. Similar lessons can be learned by looking at the history of BJJ. The Gracie family actually had a poor reputation in Brazil because the criminal activities of their patriarch was well publicized there as well as their now famous defeat by CACC wrestlers and Kimura, the best Judoka of the century. While their marketing in the US of course emphasized the effectiveness of Jujitsu, they also made sure to leave that reputation back home as best they could so it wouldn't interfere with the perception that they were more than just good fighters, but good teachers with the same familiar values of respect and honor that had been part of Karate culture for decades. They had the charisma, even if they had to fake it till they made it. And you know what? BJJ practice is full of people who are technically skilled, but hardly built like strongman competitors. There's conditioning, but CACC seems to be sold as requiring a degree of strength that not everyone has or can achieve. And it seems to be because of that ego problem, same as the Karate practitioners of old. They want to produce fighters, and they don't want to settle for less. But while I find myself watching his content less and less, Ramsey Dewey makes an excellent point when he says that everyone should train, but not everyone needs or should be a fighter. The most successful arts are the ones that can appeal to the amateur, not just the professional. HEMA right now is appealing exclusively to the amateurs right now, and that's okay. That's more sustainable than trying in vain to get the UFC fans or Reality Based Self Defense crowd interested, both of whom are going to see the focus on archaic weapons and antique sporting rulesets and say "not for me" virtually every time. The only thing that is even close IS Olympic style fencing, and those people are already interested because they don't have to change much about their body or their skills to get good at it.

[@theodorewurz4503]

You’re doing a lot for Catch. Thank you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm trying!

[@isolahti]

As a subpar submission wrestler Id say that catch could give HEMA A lot. Basic stand up wrestling and ground fighting would NOT be bad additions to sword and dagger.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely. Getting some fundamental wrestling skills and ability in HEMA can only improve it.

[@StandWatie1862]

Billy Robinson lived 5 hours from where I live. I could have met him. Wasted opportunity

[@kanucks9]

I have basic wrestling skills - but I fear throwing someone holding a rapier. If they land on the hilt, there's definitely going to be an injury. I pulled off a waki gatame once though, which felt safe enough.

[@ElDrHouse2010]

@@EnglishMartialArts yes but good luck convincing HEMA practitioners to want to fight shoe less on cushoned floor. It just won't happen. If you don't make it specifically about dagger HEMA is never going to get better at grappling. HEMA gyms are usually: A basketball court. It's just how it is man. Interest is what moves things, people want to learn sword specially longsword. I'm one of the odd ones that prefers Rapier & Dagger.

[@dhalav]

i have not watched the vidoe yet but I would say it is, in part. Just like irish stick fighting, it's centuries old, it nearly went extinct and was forgotten by most, and only a handful of people kept it alive. Then a few young people wanted to learn about it and reached to those who knew to try bringing it back in the lights, not without being perceived a fake or made-up by the more established styles in the process.

[@VitruvianSasquatch]

Our HEMA club shares a dojo with a judo group, and I think the cross-training as a result has been great for both sides. If the same happened with a catch group I think the results would be just as good.

[@ElDrHouse2010]

Problem is you will find out that grappling very rarely happens in sword HEMA. It's much more common Dagger HEMA. With swords you get poked or sliced once & thats the end of the exchange. Daggers are down in that grappling reach & control matters a heck ton. Thing is nobody likes doing dagger HEMA everyone comes in for the Swords can't blame them they look cooler, even tho learning to knife fight is 9/10 times way more useful for self-defense. Don't get me wrong I carry with a sword on the streets I have found a way that works that doesn't make me look socially inept: I own a parasol-sword, so yea I'm learning Rapier HEMA because it also goes with the pointed shank thats hidden inside the parasol I own. But I only take it out on very sunny days or rainy days.

[@VitruvianSasquatch]

I dunno, grappling happens a lot for us in sparring (weapon dependent, obviously). Mats help people being willing to go for it when it's the correct option. @@ElDrHouse2010

[@AngriestPeanut]

@@ElDrHouse2010Neckbeard shit

[@tsylvester2523]

One of the reasons I have a strong interest in CACC, coming from HEMA, is that Catch is/was merely on the brink and not quite gone, with pockets existing here and there to be saved. The usual HEMA mission of reviving dead styles is more of a resuscitation job on CACC. Bring back Noble Science! It lived up to the name, certainly a noble experiment

[@5RRRtarRiver]

Catch is DEFINITELY not disappearing…as you said, its content will be more widely learned and used as ever in grappling. The real question is will it continue under the name and a discernible lineage and overall style, right? That’s a marketing battle, isn’t it? My journey into grappling has a lot more to do with Gracie publicity stunts than anything else, I guess.

[@allengordon6929]

The true struggle of all martial arts. There used to be a bjj competitor. Luta Livre. It still exists, but it's not a competitor.

[@tisucitisin1]

It will take some time for people to figure out HEMA, but I definitely like the cross-training with other arts that HEMA people do, and people are bringing those experiences back to HEMA. HEMA as a purely academic exercise I feel is actually dying out; more and more young people are interested in pressure testing HEMA. Again, it will take some time, but give it 30-50 years. I am a person who definitely wants to see the wrestling/BJJ mentality applied to HEMA.

[@Waitingnomad]

I think you're right about that. In a lot of respects it's for the better. The main issue I see here is that whilst at the same time as HEMA is codifying into more of a pressure tested and competition oriented system; it's also spitting off into it's own modern sport form of olympic-point-fencing-with-longswords (or whatever swords) and a lot of the grappling side of things (and martial side) gets neglected for a very heavy focus on tournament-optimised sport fencing. And many tournament rules ban or heavily restrict grapples (or judges have no idea what to do when a grapple happens and just split people up immediately even when it's allowed by the rules). The result is you get a modern sport-oriented style of 'HEMA' where HEMA is it's own thing (like ITF taekwondo or point karate) instead of a fighting art. The sportification of HEMA is generally a good thing I think because it encourages more people to take it seriously as a competition sport, pressure test and work on more athleticism. But I'd like to see grappling being more encouraged by rulesets and trained properly so that it can form a relevant part of modern HEMA practice.

[@UniversalJudoAcademies]

My understanding of sword work is that when equally matched or locked in static, a certain level of wrestling comes into play. This is evident in old judo and jujitsu forms also. That being said, catch or wrestling could or should fit into a well researched HEMA program. Is it a Historical program? Most things are. Judo, Jujutsu, boxing/pugilism, fencing, karate, u name it. I believe catch or a number of wrestling forms would be a brilliant additive to HEMA for both function and historical recreation. Even if the outcome looks a bit different than true historical forms (which will inevitably be different) the overall philosophy of long range , medium range, close range, control and finish is valid and more accurate than what some places currently train.

[@thescholar-general5975]

In my view, the living tradition shouldn’t be equated to historical martial arts, but it does give invaluable insight into how the art was practiced in the past. If someone wants to revive 18th century boxing or wrestling, it is much better to study modern boxing and wrestling and explore how the earlier context made the art different from the contemporary version, than to try and reengineer a historical art completely from scratch with lots of frog DNA.

[@CommissarJake]

I think the answer is, It is HEMA due to age and 'obscurity' but its still a practiced art that will not fall into the 'Up for debate' side of hema that comes from trying to re engineer moves from books n such. As long as you, josh Barnett and others are willing to take people under their wings and continue to pass along their training to more, the art will not become 'lost and rediscovered' like most hema. Still, fingers crossed I encounter a catch wrestler in the wild, whilst I'm not one for getting beaten up, I still want to experience what it is when i can. After all, the great joy of grappling is that there is so much variation out there.

[@lsporter88]

You make perfect sense in my humble opinion. Great video.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks!

[@brittakriep2938]

It seems, that the noted wrestling Style from medieval Germany died Out in 18th century. In 19th century , German Federation' Ringen (wrestling) got new popularity with the ,Turner' movement of two men named Jahn and Friesen, but i don' t know , what kind of wrestling they ( die Turner) trained, from Napoleonic days to introduction of Olympic Style. In Switzerland ,Schwingen' is folk Style, and ,Rangeln' in mountain Region of Austria/ Bavaria/ South Tyrol.

[@UniversalJudoAcademies]

To back up what another commenter wrote. Thankyou for all you are doing for Catch and English martial arts. I believe there is still a huge way to go for catch though in its reintegration to main stream. I appreciate your discounted course and the effort that you put into making it. You absolutely SHOULD be rewarded / compensated for your efforts. However, one of the things making Catch difficult to catch on to is the very expensive seminars and online courses during a great economic depression and people still rebuilding their lives and businesses 3 years after Covid. Many martial arts clubs are still struggling somewhat. We went from 200 members in march 2020 and now have 12. Despite great efforts. If we REALLY, REALLY want to promote and publicise catch then perhaps we need to have a rethink on the big picture and how it is taking place at grass roots. Theres a lot to consider and an absolute possibility that things simply merge into "grappling" rather than distinct styles over time. For better or worse.

[@Waitingnomad]

"Is CACC part of HEMA" is a bit of a broad question depending on what we mean by HEMA isn't it. On the one hand HEMA is absolutely as you say, a sort of exercise in recreating historical arts. On the other it's also a bit of a shorthand for "traditional western martial arts" albeit, built from an amalgamation of various interpretations of historical fighting systems. On the other-other hand it's a modern rules-based sort of, expanded mixed sport fencing system using 'historical' weapons (the competition rulesets and practice of which often ignores, limits, or bans grappling and empty hand techniques). If we're treating HEMA like an actual fighting system then CACC is absolutely a part of HEMA. I'm more than happy to ignore hair splitting over the 'H' part versus CACC as a living lineage. As you say, there is an enormous gulf between HEMA 'Catch' wrestlers who learn individual techniques in isolation without doing the actual *wrestling* part of wrestling; and wrestlers who wrestle (and therefore understand how these techniques are supposed to work in application). Training intensity and sparring (wrestling/rolling) is what is missing from an awful lot of HEMA practice. I have never once seen HEMA grappling being drilled at even a fraction of the intensity as is usual even at beginner level in BJJ or Wrestling; typically people don't even wrestle or roll against a resisting partner, they just drill techniques and leave it there. Not to mention, there's an unfortunately large contingent of HEMAists who think book-study of fighting arts is or can be just as good as learning and practicing the 'real thing' - and having never done the real thing they don't understand what they don't understand. The problem is, martial arts are fighting arts and need to be trained as such to survive. The things that you lose by letting books take over from living practitioners are irrecoverable. So you're spot on - these things must be trained properly, and the HEMA community needs more encouragement to step up to the additional challenges of practicing a serious competitive style - along with the athletic requirements of such.

[@Mr-Tibbster]

In my opinion and definition, I'd consider Catch as a form of "living HEMA", it's historical and European, but it also hasn't been "lost and found". Perhaps we need another word, such as... "TEMA" (Traditional European martial arts), or TWMA (Traditional Western martial arts) which can include dead and revived "HEMA" arts, and living arts that have never died but are of a certain age and continued lineage of tradition.

[@UniversalJudoAcademies]

Please seek out a local legend in the north west, Paddy (Patrick) Durkin based at the Dog Pit in Southport. Well known and respected Catch Wrestler up North.

[@user-vm5mq2tx8i]

the connection between hema (roots) and ema (present) is where the great potential lies in my opinion

[@knightforlorn6731]

this is a great show.

[@andyedwards9222]

I am interested in HEMA more as an academic exercise, I know I haven't got the time required to be truly good. Love the points you make. Makes me wonder how good historical martial practitioners were - some would be good others not so?

[@ElDrHouse2010]

Its not. Some people overthink what HEMA is. HEMA is historical european weapon martial arts thats it. it doesnt matter if the practice is modern if they are using longswords, rapiers, spears, halberds, etc its HEMA. HEMA is simply what you get in KZbin when you search for it. What is going to happen in the future though is that HEMA will also include more cultures weapon martial arts. I know this because Koreans are already doing it. Look up "Insane Kenjutsu skills by HEMA players" from Weaponism, they are a Korean Kendo channel & showcase other Koreans that come across their dojo truns out there is a HEMA scene in Korea. What makes a martial art a martial art is interest and that it can be used for martial means (war, self-defense, etc) whatever the martial art is called doesn't really matter that much. So I prefer not to obsess about it. Whats Judo? Grappling. Whats MMA? Grappling + Striking. Whats self-defense unarmed fighting? Grappling + Striking + "dishonorable moves" like kicking balls, eye gouging, ear biting, neck biting, finger snapping, fish hooking, etc.

[@CowcaticalChris]

In our catch classes there are some sessions that are much more HEMA based, some that are much more modern sports based. The former will be working from books and source. Or perhaps even emphasise the pin a bit more than submissions so it doesn't die out, and use the holds to force the pin rather than to get a tap. I like looking at the historical side of it to put it into context, otherwise it'll lose its roots and turned into another form of no-gi BJJ.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm thinking we should just start calling no-gi submission catch. Claim it back...

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

I haven't actually done Catch, but am interested. I've also trained with Jason L. Cook, whom I believe you know and has some Catch experience? I think I'm getting to a decent fundamental (if a bit "nice") system for medieval wrestling within my club, but would love to learn more. As far as it being HEMA? It seems so. Especially if you start tracing its roots back from what we currently know, that seems very much in the spirit of HEMA to me. FIGHT TEAM!

[@sukotsutoCSSR]

Catch is living history. It is both historical and modern, as we can still wrestle in the age of swords and spears, and beyond

[@Stephen_Curtin]

An even handed argument as always Fight Team!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@seasickviking]

The two being connected isn't that much of a stretch in my opinion. After all, if Jujitsu/Judo was allegedly created by Samurai as a form for unarmed defense, I don't understand why medieval knights wouldn't try to do the same.

[@ayrnovem9028]

The question that should be asked: Is it reasonable and useful to define Catch as a part of HEMA? Terminology should follow reality and practical considerations. Not the other way around.

[@rejectionrole1237]

Hey, wanted to let you know that you lost a member, but only because of financial issues. I'll return to being one when I'm in good condition again. You deserve much! Love your content!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Sorry you're having issues. Hope you turn it around soon!

[@DreynHarry]

Catch is defintely not in the main cast of the TV Show called HEMA, but it is for sure recurring guest role.... and rightfully so.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

I haven't done any catch wrestling, but for any living martial arts tradition to fade into an academic exercise is a tragedy. I wish jousting were a continuous tradition and in the Olympics.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Okay, most important part out of the way firsr: shout out to Gonzo! Now for the next. Going by the way you've presented things here, it seems like whether Catch wrestling is its own living system or HEMA depends on how you train, whether you learned from a living lineage or practiced things you've researched, likely cross-referenced with other systems you have practiced. I think that it can be either one, even both, but I think it is also important to keep it from being limited to either. It is a great idea to train it with others in a living school, because that is where perspective and pressure - especially pressure - are applied. I think it is also important to keep the historical study alive, because teaching wrestling from one generation to the next is a folk tradition, and things can easily change in the transmission from one generation to the next. This isn't a bad thing, but it is a thing. I am coming at this from the perspective of someone who has always been interested in fighting systems, but only got to train later in life. I have years of training in two east Asian styles of unarmed combat, but never considered myself one of the better examples of either. Much of my research and practice today os focused on HEMA because, well, SWORDS ❤ My only real experience with proper Catch has been an afternoon in Guildford where, going by the feedback I recieved, I did better than I thought I had. Thanks again, boss! I am now doing more research to see what I can get learned once life stops throwing roadblocks at me! FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Nice summary my friend.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Oh, and coincidentally Sion was asking after you earlier this week. He says hi.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

@@EnglishMartialArts Well, "Hi" back to him!

[@JuanDiaz-tj4do]

I do not agree with the requirement of being "dead" for an art to be considered "HEMA". In some cases, the art may be still alive, in other cases the "problem" is the changes imposed in the art for the sake of sport competition, leaving out some techniques not allowed in sport but maybe useful in a real combat situation (read self defense). For instance, in an external example, there is now a movement within the judo community to recover all the techniques that were discarded by sport competition. How are they doing it? By using old manuals, that's it. If it is European and it is historical, then it is HEMA. Some arts need to be revived but some other are still alive, but the idea is the same. The rest is just rethoric.

[@jritchey267]

Is it more than a couple of generations old? Is the history of the sport important to its identity? Knowing who came before and how they did things and why? Then it's HEMA. Is it just about beating people and the history and lineage--and anyone interested in those things-- mean nothing? Then what point is there in even identifying it as Catch? Tribalism between the two (and any number of other related fields) is just ego and insecurity trying oh so hard to be abundantly clear *we* aren't like those *other* niche nerds. All it does is deny all involved potential resources and training partners.

[@andrewk.5575]

I have always been of the opinion that if it is a living lineage than it is not HEMA because the "H" in the acronym stands for "historical," in other words taken from written sources, which living arts are not. That is my logical argument, but on a more emotional level I reflexively dislike the idea that HEMA gets to come along in the 90's and retroactively declare that arts that proceeded it by decades or centuries are aspects of their movement. If I am a Catch or Glíma wrestler, an Italian knife fighter, a classical fencer, a savateur, or a student of Jogo do pau why should a bunch of HEMA people get to decide what I am, especially since I a) have probably never heard of HEMA and b) might actively dislike it.

[@torstenscott7571]

I have to wonder if many of the more scholarly HEMA folks should first spend at least 6 months to a year at a catch wrestling gym before researching many sword and wrestling systems from antiquity. This would give them the true understanding of the mechanics and athletic demands of fighting that could be used when interpreting manuscripts. More often than not I have witnessed HEMA practitioners who are seemingly unaware of their various vulnerabilities due to their training being an intellectual exercise that lacks resistance training. If HEMA becomes nothing but a conversation amongst smug nerds, then we might find HEMA (including catch) becoming an English Aikido with all the negative connotations associated with it.

[@tapioperala3010]

Very good video on something that I would even classify as a touchy subject. I don't think catch will ever turn into European aikido, no, but there's definitely a risk of being "watered down". The reason for this is the fact that struggling for a small advancement, working towards something for weeks, months, years, is not encouraged nowadays in youth. Everything should immediate and now. Tomorrow does not exist. Waiting for 5 minutes is not acceptable. *We* all know that's just BS, but that's how I see teens and pre-teens think, based on my experience and understanding. When you add an activity that requires years and years to master and the road isn't covered in thorns, it's covered in glass fragments and legos, one finds the equation very difficult to balance.

[@lewisb85]

There's a name you left off the list of people who kept catch alive Darren "William regal" Matthews why do I mention it because he worked at the last wrestling booth in Blackpool, Actively discussed it talked about how part of his act was running off local tough guys who would take him on, what I find really interesting though is he refers to what he learnt as Lancashire wrestling and not catch, probably because that's where he grew up.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

He trained under Marty Jones, who won a British amateur title as a kid under Billy Robinson before going pro later in life.

[@thechroniclesofthegnostic7107]

Short answer: yes. (Long answer? All depends on how recent your bar is to qualify as "historical.")

[@thechroniclesofthegnostic7107]

Longest answer: Depends on the above--and how parochial you are about "European." Given catch was significantly international.

[@thebaneking4787]

To the thumbnail. No FN Way. Catch is king!!! Speaking on the no weapons just wrestling.

[@judoandy3308]

I think it's time for the first World Bartitsu Championship. Lol

[@Halbared]

Aye, lad.

[@HealerTheMaroon]

English cudgel was 100% taken from the various African Tribes who practiced Stick fighting within the British kingdom.. look at Trinidad 🇹🇹 their sticking fight tradition is from Africa and was brought over with them by the british and is still is the national sport of Trinidad it exist before and after cudgeling

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I can certainly believe that there was a heavy influence, but 100% taken from? Not convinced.

[@user-vm5mq2tx8i]

yes, iwould definely say so

[@CrazyTom34]

Don't forget Tony C in the US, most of the CACC community did😂

[@patrickhunter9525]

Something I've been wondering about since I first watched this a few days ago is what you think your experience of learning catch as hema then as a living are says about the viability of hema for learning actually dead arts.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It doesn't change my thoughts much, I still believe it's perfectly possible to learn from books if they are good enough. But intensity of training is hard to replicate without a coach or leader with prior experience.

[@user-vm5mq2tx8i]

and i go even further and say that the roots of catch are from the north, its the parts of uk with lots of ancestors of nordic settlers where catch became popular....

[@EnglishMartialArts]

And London. There's a huge amount of Catch in London historically.

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

What was it that made "book-learning catch" you terrible at it, but "Billy Robinson catch" you good at it? Simply having a human teach you it? Amount of time spent? Or was there something more? e.g. their tuition was simply more effective? You say it needs to be trained at full power, but can two book learners not eventually do that? (And what's that say about the rest of HEMA? :))

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Good question. It's a combination of things I think. Firstly the trial and error process of book learning takes such a long time compared with having a grumpy man with a stick shout at you. Secondly it's impossible to tell a book you don't understand it and for it to rephrase its instructions. And the camp with Billy was three full days in a row. That forces your brain to remember some stuff, even when you're as old as me!

[@dallasburnworth]

I think that Catch in it of itself was always integrated into other arts--like boxing is integrated into MMA. Not every art is designed to be effective at all combat ranges or to address certain types of momentum. I think that to survive, Catch needs to be integrated into other systems and to be recognized for what it is and its heritage. Catch hurts! Like you have said in other videos, BJJ has become like a conceptual JKD analog for grappling whereby folks learn things outside of what is traditionally considered to be BJJ, and then they integrate what they have learned. At that point I think that both BJJ and Catch benefit. I'm just annoyed at certain aspects of BJJ philosophy and culture. Catch gives people an edge because it requires a different strategy and mindset. I don't care about the BJJ fixation on positional control if I cant' get it. If I get your head or arm, it's mine with Catch--and that is a beautiful thing! Don't forget about the gouges and fish-hooking! For me, I look at Catch and BJJ as winning no matter what (Catch), vs. winning according to a set of rules (BJJ). Inserting Catch breaks the "classical mess" described by Bruce Lee when his JKD concepts were introduced in the 1960's.

[@cahallo5964]

Savate is HEMA and it's alive and growing and catch is too so I'd say it is HEMA

[@youknowme1475]

Pls cover the style of schwingen and ringen

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, I definitely will.

[@youknowme1475]

@@EnglishMartialArts ty

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Hmmm... great question. The way I see it, catch is a system that has it's roots in historical wrestling, in much the same way that boxing has it's roots in pugilism. However, I wouldn't call it HEMA... as such... well... I probably wouldn't ;) Having said that, I have never practiced catch and therefore my opinion isn't really valid. Thanks for another thought provoking video :)

[@edwardcarrier4816]

I am a Hama practitioner as well as someone who Okichitaw which is a plains Cree martial art. I grew up in watching catch wrestling because we would all watch it on tv. It is really important to do what you are doing because catch is a great indigenous European system of combat. Keep up the good work.

[@adrianojordao4634]

Are joint locks and strangles in ema, say year 1000? I have a fealing this is all japonese from 18 and 19 centry migrations. Do you get in ema ground fighting te niques? This is a honest question. I dont know, but i think you do, please tell me. Fight team!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, ground fighting existed in traditional systems. The jury is still out on submissions as we know them today.

[@adrianojordao4634]

@@EnglishMartialArts what is ground fighting with out submisions? Pins and stabs? Tank you, i am new to the channel, i like history. Tank you keep posting.

[@NuggetsForBrains5]

Hey if I wanted to host a catch wrestling tournament, as an event in my local hema tournament how would I go about doing that?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Invite people? On a more serious note you're gonna need to consider jnsurance, or at least a legally solid disclaimer and waiver. Then you need a decent space with good mats, a comprehensive ruleset (use someone elses), and a couple of people willing to referee. Add in wrestlers and you're all good...

[@scollyb]

I think the test is could/should good modern day practitioners learn something from the old books but stay within the boundary of catch? The equivalent question being could modern boxers become better boxers by studying pugalism?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes to both from me.

[@scollyb]

@@EnglishMartialArts Then they should probably both be HEMA. Or at least could benefit from being HEMA

[@jonathanwaswrong3917]

I consider catch and boxing to be "western martial arts". And at the end of the day, doesnt everything have a historical background? FIGHT TEAM! God bless all yall!

[@MrEdium]

Should Be 🤔

[@xr33tk]

People like clear categorization but in reality nice simple categories often dont exist. You hit the nail on the head when you said hema is a movement. Whatever the letters stand for hema is not defined by linguistic analysis but by the way the term is used. There is more to hema than simply whether something is an old way of fighting used in europe. Hence for example american football is football even though there is limited use of feet on the ball.

[@GuildofKnightlyArts]

HEMA isn't dominated by academics and I say that kind of begrudgingly because I am inclined towards the study of historical manuscripts. Most HEMA folk are interested in the sport side of HEMA and HEMA is growing by leaps and bounds every year. That being said, there are several sword disciplines in HEMA which still are living traditions. It is not a requirement to re-erect a dead fighting style for it to be classified as HEMA. Is Catch Wresting HEMA? I believe the honest answer is in the affirmative. Is Cornish Wrestling, which we know was present at the Battle of Agincourt, HEMA? Of course it is. The inclusion of these arts into HEMA can, IMO, be helpful in drawing more attention to these arts. Will people practice them half ass? No doubt some will but that will also happen outside of HEMA. HEMA isn't just about reconstructionism but also about preservation.

[@rafaelbabar3494]

For something to be historical reenactment, it kind of must’ve died. However, this criterion could apply to many traditional martial arts for whom the origins of where specific movements in the forms come from, and what they mean has long been lost. As you have mentioned previously , if catch develops a superiority complex which makes it a closed system which doesn’t learn from other systems, then like other systems, such as kung fu it will lose relevance over time and become a laughing stock. If it l keeps itself open to learning from other systems such as the much inferior BJJ then it will continue to be live, dynamic and relevant and therefore not historical reenactment.

[@rhonddarousey9683]

Was there a Welsh wrestling at this time?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There is definitely some evidence of a backhold system in North Wales, but I've not found much more than that simple fact for now.

[@rhonddarousey9683]

@@EnglishMartialArts amazing! Thanks for your response

[@rhonddarousey9683]

@@EnglishMartialArts I know bare-knuckle was big in South Wales historically (eg Tommy Farr) but not much with regards to wrestling

[@Stoffoloff]

At this point Ive done Catch for just about 2 years, and HEMA for about 3 and a half years. Whether Catch is HEMA or not? I think I lead towards no - whilst it is historical and European, as you say it has a (just about) unbroken lineage of continuing practice. It never had to be revived, from a distance of hundreds of years, in the way that various HEMA systems have. From my perspective, Ive found the way Catch has influenced me and my attitude to HEMA very important. Catch Wrestling convinced me (often through the gruelling reality of sparring!) that fitness and athleticism are paramount, and are at the core of any serious fighting art. I couldnt help but contrast the fitness required of the Catch wrestlers I trained with, and the lack of focus/attention devoted to fitness in the various armed martial arts of HEMA classes. That respect/hunger for physical improvement and athletic capability isnt present in HEMA. And I couldn't help but think that it was odd, and a damn shame. Why shouldnt your swordplay benefit from greater strength, speed, cardio endurance, and flexibility? Not to mention the mental benefit of knowing that you're a physically fit/capable fighter. It drove me to make serious decisions to drastically improve my fitness to a much higher level, both for the sake of better wrestling and fencing. Catch wrestling hammered home the point for me - fitter fighters make better fighters. Anyway, I realise Ive written a small novel so apologies - but the takeaway is that I think training Catch/BJJ/any serious sparring martial art could do a lot of good for many HEMA folk, who would likely come to appreciate the vast benefits of practicing such arduous martial arts and the physical performance improvements that come with it (and indeed, are demanded by it). Plus, a HEMA community that took its physical training and form more seriously would probably be better respected within martial arts too.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Agreed 100% on all points.

[@Waitingnomad]

The level of athleticism and drive in HEMA overall is just extremely low and it is holding us back from becoming a 'serious' martial art. HEMA is to historical fencing what point karate is to unarmed fighting, but at least point karate fighters work on their fitness. Do you think (fitness and conditioning aside) that your CACC skills have improved your HEMA?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@Waitingnomad Yes, absolutely.

[@oompaen]

The reality is that things evolve. Do you want to copy judo/wrestling from 50s,or from today..... it doesnt even resemble the same art.... 70 years of evolution has changed it dramatically. Dont look in old books for hand to hand combat.... the best hand to hand combat there has ever been,is in any good wrestling/bjj/judo school in your country. And its happening every week.... dont get left behind!

[@tonymontana3949]

Of course wrestling is part of hema in western martial arts

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

Im sorry but when you've got people like Dave Faulkner, Shane Rigby, Daren Morris and Jack Mountford RIP would laugh at this vdeo!

[@andreabeltrame1111]

Why not? The name's "Historical European Martial Art", not "Dead and Gone European Martial Art". If what they do now is the same of what they did a hundred years ago, to me is historical all right 🤷‍♂️

[@BillyTheKidsGhost]

Sort of like Kano after the 300 ~ years of the Edo period... Martial arts get lost in ''peace time''.

[@naakaalastudio6655]

The bigger question is Catch actually a form of Judo? No I am not being serious. Just had a back and forth with Judokas claiming No Gi Jiu Jitsu is actually Judo. 😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well considering Kano studied Wrestling, and Maeda was a wrestler himself. I'd say Judo and BJJ are both forms of Catch anyway. So it's a moot point.

[@craigcarroll1790]

Well considering the history of things.... Jujitsu was developed over about 2000+ years in Japan. In the earliest part of the 20th century jigoro kano took moves from Takagi Yoshin Ryu after conversations with various Martial artists in Japan ( Toshitsugu Takamatsu was one outstanding example as they wrote several letters and he held the scrolls making him head of said style.) And created judo from those styles for a more sport and personal development type art. My 2 cents

[@MrAlepedroza]

​@@craigcarroll1790I don't think its accurate to call such long development "Jiujitsu" when the name was not even coined until relatively recently. More like the wrestling arts that preceded it existed for thousands of years, I can totally buy into that, but calling it all Jiujitsu is a big stretch.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

Somewhat off topic, but every once in a while I get sad that the dumbest genocidal maniac who ever lived decided to stamp out hundreds of years of Kung Fu tradition. He also lost a war against sparrows at the cost of tens of millions of lives. Possibly the worst human being of all time.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, he made some very odd decisions.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

@@EnglishMartialArts Deciding martial arts aren't proletariat is extremely suspicious.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

You use Fake the Snake as your representation of what Catch Wrestling is 😂😂 Seriously though he's not the best representation of it a guy who has zero achievements in Grappling, MMA and Wrestling!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Billy Robinson rated him, so your opinion is worthless.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

​@@EnglishMartialArtsBilly Robinson was paid by him! Billy Robinson was a great man no doubt, but all these certifications are worthless! Did Billy Riley have a certificate saying he was a "certified Catch Wrestler", Karl Gotch, Billy Robinson?? Simple because there's no such thing as certificates in wrestling 😂😂 My challenge to Jake is still out there, let's grapple, wrestle under any ruleset of his choosing! You know even Ian Bromley RIP Challenged him to a match and this was in 2011-2012 and Jake wimped out!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@rippersubmissionwrestling2704 it's just a piece of paper, who gives a toss what it says. I spent time with Billy, I saw the way he and Jake were. If you want to believe it was just mercenary on Billy's part you go for it. But it just shows you're a fool.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

@@EnglishMartialArts I look at people's achievements, if they're living off someone else's legacy... That makes the person disingenuous! I use logic and facts, that's all!

[@Sfourtytwo]

Dont make yourself unhappy if you say it isnt and you got a good argument i will have to go back to Fiore and Auerswald

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm not unhappy, just rambling as ever!

[@Sfourtytwo]

What i hate about BJJ: Commercialism and authoritarian hierarchy. I wont be paying someone 400 bucks a month to call him my blackbelted lord and master with a direct lineage to the Führer (Bolsonaro is a honorary BJJ blackbelt thanks to the Fuhrerfamily) . Sorry. What i like about Hema amateurism, a source that is the only authority in the room and noone trying to rip me off. So where do Catch Workshops enter the picture? 500 bucks and a sheet of paper for one weekend?

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

Are the Fascists in the room with you right now?

[@Sfourtytwo]

@@Kwisatz-Chaderach So are you denying that Bolsonaro is a fascist or are you denying that he is a honorary BJJ blackbelt because the Gracies could not stop fellating him?

[@Sfourtytwo]

Bolsonaro has publicly referred to the military dictatorship as a "glorious" period in Brazil's history, and that under the military dictatorship, Brazil enjoyed "20 years of order and progress". In December 2008, Bolsonaro said that "the error of the dictatorship was that it tortured, but did not kill". If that is not a democrat i dont know what is.

[@cahallo5964]

My man you are insane

[@Sfourtytwo]

@@cahallo5964 So you can deny that the Gracies are a cancer upon the earth, you can deny that they are still the cancerous center of BJJ or you could just call me "my man" and tell me i am insane. How about you "go fuck yourself" "my man".

[@ollysmith1584]

Oz, I've sent you a message on Instagram, please reply. Also, great video as always!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Sorry mate, I'll go check!