Is This Early Catch Wrestling?

This is a wonderful description of a fight from a book of memoirs published in 1840. It is described as Lancashire Style, and definitely sounds very reminiscent of Catch. Have a watch and see if you agree with me...

[@FaoladhTV]

Thank you for mentioning Ken. The day we lost him was a sad day for us all, and his influence was felt more widely than only in the fighting community too.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I bet, he was a great bloke. A lot of us owe him a huge debt of gratitude for what he did. We'd spoken for years online, so getting to meet him and hang out in person for a weekend was a big deal for me.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I love these period blow-by-blow accounts, the ancestry of Robert Howard's descriptions of steely swordsmen and man-of-iron boxers. The language is as beautiful as the action described is brutally frank. It is challenging to "see" at times what exact moves are being performed and how, but enough is made plain that it is both easy and exciting to follow. I was first introduced to the idea of combat sports through territory era professional wrestling, and play-by-play announcers like Jim Ross were Shakespeares of the subculture (tho might have replaced the word throttling with goozling.) Listening to accounts like this makes me want to write that well. FIGHT TEAM! P.S.: Cool coffee mug ☕

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'd love to be able to write in the way people did 200 years ago.

[@JaxenChaz]

The Robert Howard comparison is quite apt! I've read the Conan stories of course, but now you make me want to track down his boxing stories.

[@louiedidcote8260]

Still Waiting for this channel to do a Abdullah The Butcher vs Billy Robinson reaction video. Now THAT'S REAL WRESTLING haha

[@zachleprieur2871]

Wow suplexed so hard he bled from the ears! Definitely sounds like catch. Chokes and the description of the grapevine of the leg in half gaurd.

[@eltororist3366]

It's a really interesting time. Many forces are colliding. So you need to remember how hard life was back then with very low life expectancies for men in Manchester. People were desperate to escape. By the 1820s a form of exceptionally brutal prize fights / death matches had become popular leading to purses that could change your life. One victory and you were set. But this was noticed by polite society and it was decided that they must be stamped out. So the courts started handing down terribly hard punishments on the survivors. If you read what the courts charged people with and how they tried to decide if it was a prize fight or a scrap in the street you come up with a list of actions like choking and kicking (that both appear in this interesting excerpt) that if removed from the brutal fights yields catch wrestling... And as the first references I can find to catch wrestling date to the same period that you see these extreme punishments introduced I think it's likely that catch evolved out of the brutality as a way to preserve the money making ability of the death fights into a new era that was rapidly turning it's back on violence. Very interesting excerpt... They were taking quite a risk...

[@whim6287]

Sounds like some of the accounts of Rough N' Tumble I've read and heard. My dream of one day trying to capture more of the glimpses I have got growing up poor and Southern. (We weren't allowed to do it, but tried our damnedest anyways to do/learn as much as we could or thought that we were.) FIGHT TEAM!

[@Philo68]

Back in the (19)90”s I thought this type of fighting took place only on the American frontier. It’s nice that these guys kept it fair play - savage though it may have been. This stuff has likely taken place all over the World in one form or another. Cheers to your secret researchers past and present- always something to learn from your Smackanory tales. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@Philo68]

@@Ozs_secret_researcher Thankyou for all your hard work. It’s appreciated.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

Oh my God 😂 Whenever i feel down Martin i watch one of your videos! It gives me a good laugh 😂😂😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks for boosting the algorithm!

[@Poohze01]

It certainly sounds like the combatants were using some science, and some accepted rules, but whether it counts as Lancashire or early Catch or something else I think depends on which way you want to squint. It was certainly brutal enough - I've had a gash in my shin that exposed bone from a fall, and that part really made me wince 😄

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There's plenty of evidence that kicking was considered "Lancashire style".

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Fascinating stuff! From all the descriptions of catch that I've heard, this certainly sounds like it was in that direction. Brutal stuff indeed! Many thanks :)

[@JaxenChaz]

Classic tale of "savvy, salty old grappler evens the odds against rambunctious youngster's physical advantages". But credit to young Doggy for a slick bottom escape, to half guard, to wrestle up! Here's to hoping ol' Poacher stays one step ahead of the young lions! Geez, I sound like his mother.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

But mooooooom!

[@adrianojordao4634]

Very good narration. I remember Barry Lindon filme. Fight Team!

[@davidemelia6296]

Oz! You really missed a trick not going with that meme image of the kid looking at the butterfly asking 'Is this ?' for the thumbnail 🤣

[@mgunnermusic]

Would it be possible to have a video that lays out what we think are the current timelines of different wrestling styles and how they intermingle/vary? This vid seems really interesting, but hapless chump that I am I don't know a huge amount about the context. Great to know you have a knowledge elf, like a wrestling father Christmas.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It would certainly be lovely to have that, but it's not an easy thing to do. I'll see what I can come up with.

[@Ozs_secret_researcher]

I'll see what I can do 😉

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm beginning to wonder how I coped without a secret researcher...

[@mgunnermusic]

@@EnglishMartialArts While I'm here, I was also wondering if you could do a video for modern Catch. I've already come across some BJJ people who make Catch sound like it's an insane art for purely violent people. I was wondering if you could make a video giving some arguments and justifications for catch that a BJJ wrestler would appreciate.

[@mgunnermusic]

@@Ozs_secret_researcher Amazing! 😂

[@TimRHillard]

I've been training Drop as Drop Can Wrestling for years now🤔😁👍👍

[@bubbagump2341]

The two combatants sound the sort of "common ruffian" you were supposed to find and beat up to practice your pugilism skills according to some books! lol

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Allanson-Winn's advice!

[@bubbagump2341]

@@EnglishMartialArts That's the one I was thinking of! Of course, I personally think trying that would be a good way to get your butt thumped back in those days!

[@tapioperala3010]

To be honest (which in itself sounds really stupid, 'cause I'm always honest), I think that there's submissions in every martial art ever conceived by man. It's a lot easier to have someone tap out than beat them to submission. So I would be surprised if there wasn't a submission attempt.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Very interesting. I Picture some back riding to top side turtle Sawing crossfacing..maybe some bulldog choking and later maybe guillotine or even a very slow standing crucifix not to break the neck but just compress his breathing and punish him

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yeah I wondered about the bulldog choke too.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

On a first listen it sounded like the "dog-man" kicked "poacher" in the knee and threw him. I was imagining something like Judo's Hiza Guruma. On the second time though it sounds more like "poacher" countered the kick on the knee by taking advantage of "dog-man's" loss of balance (perhaps still on one leg) and threw him.

[@lastmanstanding5423]

2nd one is how I understood it

[@Stephen_Curtin]

@@lastmanstanding5423 yeah makes more sense I think. The grammar can be tricky sometimes to know who the "he" refers to.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yeah, I was thinking the second.

[@waynegoddard4065]

Your channel rocks.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks! Go tell people! 😀

[@waynegoddard4065]

@@EnglishMartialArts No Just kidding. Will do. I already share ya.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you! I really appreciate it.

[@attieschutte7116]

When they say kicking do they mean restrickted to shins or all of the legs or all of the body?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

My gut feel is shins, but that is a gut feel and not backed up by evidence at this point.

[@JaxenChaz]

Love this channel! Perfect blend of martial arts history, lore, theory, and practice! These old accounts are brilliant, and massive props to the researchers bringing them to light. Couple minor questions: 1:42 "up and down fighting" What's that? 3:21 "long before the art of self defense... was known on these Islands" What would the writer be referring to here? Pugilism?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Firstly thank you! Secondly there's a video on up and down fighting coming soon. Thirdly, yes. For some time boxing was referred to as the art, or science of self defence.

[@vercingetorixwulf9298]

Tough fight ......

[@pjdunnit6753]

Coffee!? Uneffin' subbed!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Byeeeeee! *waves

[@waynegoddard4065]

Sounds stupid but dying is not good. Love how we can retain knowledge. I'll die knowing stuff. Glad you could join me.

[@benjamimc5x67]

I firmly believe in the need for a reflux, in terms of authentic catch, from Japan towards the West. Sakuraba, Yori Nakamura, Yukoh Miyato, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, among other Japanese people, are unquestionably the best wrestlers in the world today. They assimilated the authentic catch like no one else. Catch is alive and well in Japan. In the Western championships I see, it's just a game of pushing and shoving; you don't see a beautiful, effective attempt at hooking, you don't see the basics of the catch, the most efficient thing about it, that is, the double wrist lock. All that can be seen is crude force, without direction. If jiu jitsu practitioners are totally mistaken regarding the prevalence of technique over strength, and catches are absolutely correct in their binomial technique plus strength, it is also true that many catches, as if having unquestionably adopted the adage "violent art", do not There is no more technique. Look at Curran Jacobs, and that "world championship" he won. The guy is hard-working, but, for God's sake, he's just a conventional wrestler who only knows how to exert a lot of force and try to choke his opponent's neck, and nothing else. The catch is the superior form of grappling, as we all know. Sakuraba demonstrated this fully. Jiu is just a sport. But watch Yukoh Miyato's videos: that's the real catch: sublime technique, adequate strength, perfect esgrima, none of that stuff of pushing aimlessly through an entire fight.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There are a few guys out of the UK who are proper quality. Chris Crossan and Ian Jones spring to mind.

[@benjamimc5x67]

@@EnglishMartialArts You no longer see standing submissions, which was very common in the old catch. Let's look at Sakuraba, the greatest grappler ever seen, who didn't expect to take down his opponent to submit him. Or Cecchine's instructional videos, which are totally authentic, where he demonstrates truly terrible standing double wrist locks, the most brutal I've ever seen. Look at Yukoh Miyato, the elegance, ease, fluidity of his movements.

[@benjamimc5x67]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKOsqImMr52fhq8si=SD9P0aoh3ZjsmsNZ

[@benjamimc5x67]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnjQdmCJZq-Cg6csi=Udp1Lnn6hdrqk1oO

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@benjamimc5x67 I was taught a standing double wristlock in Doncaster by an Englishman. Just sayin... 😀

[@sharp_medicine9858]

Does it say what the disagreement was about? It seems like they have similar hunting based careers except one of them is doing it more legally than the other.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I haven't read the whole thing, but it doesn't in the bit I did read...

[@tichtran664]

If this is Lancashire up and down fighting this must be a UNDERGROUND fight. Since Lancashire up and down fighting officially ended in 1820s. What is the book this fight is mentioned from?!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lol, it really didn't.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Up-and-down was pretty much always underground, and there are tons of newspaper account of fights well after 1820.

[@tichtran664]

@@Stephen_Curtin But later when Yukio Tani came along it probably put an END to this monsteriosity. Since now catch wrestling can either be pin or submission rather than just pin.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

@@tichtran664 right but Tani didn't arrive until around 1900, and by this point up-and-down had died out and been replaced by Lancashire Wrestling.

[@tichtran664]

@@Stephen_Curtin Well I hope this thing will NEVER be revived. It was too brutal. Since only way to win were either concede or die. YIKES 😬

[@waynegoddard4065]

You couldn't be losing back then.

[@harlemdeni]

I think it's just a coincidence and not some proper move. Comment for the algo ;)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Which bit? The half guard? What makes you say that? Thrbimpression I get is that the fighters had a fair amount of knowledge and skill but the writer didn't. So he's describing specific moves, or techniques without knowing what they were.

[@harlemdeni]

@@EnglishMartialArts actually when you say it like that it makes more sense, ngl. Maybe the efficiency was proper, but the writer didn't have the correct terms. Nice one ;)

[@davidemelia6296]

Also: what is it with people who work with wool and/or sheep? I've known a few people who worked/work outback with sheep, and when the mad buggers aren't working, all they seem to want to do is drink, fight, and fornicate 🤣

[@JaxenChaz]

Perhaps the modern definition of "pastoral" needs revision!