Is CBT harmful for Autistic Adults (Effects of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy nobody talks about!)

[@sixbirdsinatrenchcoat]

I've been clinically depressed for more than two decades. I went through three rounds of CBT with three different psychs. Each one made things worse. All they did was tell me what I should be doing differently - but I already knew all of it. My problem was never a lack of knowledge, it was a lack of ability to act on that knowledge. Telling me that if I would just go for a walk every day, if I would just schedule one social meet-up a week ... and me being incapable of doing any of it consistantly ... all of it just made it feel like the depression was my own fault because I couldn't just get my act together and do the things. .... Turns out I am autistic and have ADHD. Not only is my adhd why I couldn't do the things - together with being autistic, it's why life in general was always just a little too difficult and overwhelming. It was why I was depressed, and it was why the prescribed "therapy" made it worse. Antidepressants helped me survive, but it was (and still is) like putting a bandaid on a blister, and then continuing to walk with the same sharp stone in your shoe. ADHD meds have finally turned that stone into sand. It's still there, it can be irritating, but it isn't cutting me to the bone. Like you pretty much said: Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

[@daminox]

Wow. Every single word of this comment could have been written by me. Everything. The two decades of depression, CBT with 3 different therapists while having undiagnosed ASD with ADHD, the stuff about adhd meds, all of it. I'm with my 4th therapist now (first since being diagnosed) and the next time I see him I'm going to have a long talk about the type of therapy we're doing.

[@sixbirdsinatrenchcoat]

@daminox I wish you the very best of luck. If you can find a therapist who is themselves autistic, that might be a good idea. OR someone who has knowledge of and experience with our neurology. A friend of mine travels 2 hours each way to hers, but he's the only therapist she's found who gets how her mind actually works.

[@guillaumeb6698]

THIS. Mental health professionals HAVE to stop working in silos. Also wonder how many BPD (and worse) are undiagnosed ASD/ADHD that have badly evolved.

[@84Elenai]

@@guillaumeb6698 I was diagnosed with BPD traits three years ago, after years and years of therapy, which never felt like a proper diagnosis to me. That’s not even a diagnosis. Now I have just started with a new therapist who specialises in ASD and ADHD, after the last one (my second therapist) expressed her disappointment because I couldn’t stop smoking joints from time to time. I had told her that I would try and stop, but I didn’t want to commit 100% because weed is a big relief for me (I have been through a lot in the last 3 years: a tumour, my boyfriend left me to come out as a transgender while I was being treated for my tumour, and my father lost his leg and is now on a wheelchair because of a bad illness). Instead of supporting me, she was demanding, kind of cold, condescending from time to time, and thought everything could be solved with some exercise, finding a couple of good friends and breathing. Finally yesterday I had my first session with this ASD and ADHD expert, and she told me straight away that it’s very probable that I am on the spectrum, in her opinion. It will take a few more sessions to determine if I am, because “many intelligent women learn to mask at a very young age the ASD signs and might not get diagnosed until their lives crash and they can’t take it anymore. That’s very common.” That’s what she said. I am 38. Spent thousands on therapy that didn’t do much, just crystallised what I already knew. I struggled my entire life and feel like I am alive still only because of my family. Like, I don’t want to hurt them, but I had enough already. Had I been listening to those two first champs, I’d be already dead. I don’t have the financial support needed, but honestly, I am thinking of suing those motherfu****.

[@sixbirdsinatrenchcoat]

@@joebrewer4529 There are at least a dozen reasons why this is not true. However, educating you is not my job - it is yours. I suggest you take the steps needed to avoid appearing ignorant in the future.

[@marieugorek5917]

CBT can be particularly harmful for autistics who are undiagnosed. Pattern matching can be identified as fortune telling or catastrophization by therapists, leading them to train the client away from pattern matching. Accurate descriptions of sensory or emotional responses are often flagged as exaggerations by therapists, leading them to encourage the client to minimize and even ignore their own system's warning signals. Even when these things don't occur, most autistics who see improvement of specific anxieties often find that these improvements do not stick once something about their life circumstances change -- I think this is partially because many autistics struggle to generalize newer behaviors from one context to another,so when their overall context changes, they revert to the much older patterns of behavior which have already been over-generalized. And then there's the fact that we tend to develop trauma responses from unmet needs or with much smaller data sets/lower level inputs. Rational thought work, such as in CBT, can actually prevent one from working through the trauma responses.

[@jimwilliams3816]

EXACTLY. I can catastrophize for sure when my amygdala gets me in a stranglehold. But I’m not so bad at self analysis, and when I say I’m not doing something well, I am generally right. I’m more likely to have issues with not realizing I’m messing up until it’s too late. So being told I probably didn’t do that badly, everyone goofs...not helpful. I do better than average at some things and much worse than average at others, and I can tell the difference.

[@lovepeace2373]

Very accurate explanation.

[@lovepeace2373]

@@jimwilliams3816 so well said.

[@agrotta1650]

I'm blown away by how you put that into words. I know 💯 what you're speaking of.

[@edwigcarol4888]

The problem you describe is the one of therapists that are not good enough, which is the case mostly.. You describe a very bad behavior of an unqualified therapist that we can name "invalidation". The worse that can happen to you.. family members do that bad thing. No need to pay someone for that How i know that ? I can compare with the therapist i had over some 10 years. His support was mostly the right thing.. i have learned with him to respect and know myself, to take care of myself, to be responsible of what happens to me and to understand what happens in my interactions with others . And he was still learning and applying new approach or tools to help his patients. He used EMDR, some tools on emotional regulation, body-mind connection, exposition.. and encourage me to meditate and do a lot with my body

[@sjzara]

I tried CBT for anxiety and depression. The result was increased anxiety and depression. I was told to explore unpleasant feelings and it would be safe. It wasn’t. I had a breakdown.

[@theoldaccountthatiusedtous6767]

I tried to explore unpleasant feelings on my own (before I ever went to a therapist) and it also was not safe. I am still rebuilding my self-esteem years later. There's a reason I didn't feel safe to feel those feelings in the first place, there's a reason I had all sorts of habits to keep myself distant from my feelings. They might not have been healthy habits, but they were healthy in that they were keeping me from being overwhelmed.

[@shockofthenew]

​@@theoldaccountthatiusedtous6767 I'm really sorry for both of you having those experiences. I think the iceberg of unrecognised trauma (severe complex trauma) in the Autistic population has still only just begun to be uncovered. If your mind and body are telling you it isn't safe to access those feelings yet then it isn't safe, and pushing people to dive into their trauma unprepared can cause serious damage. It took me years to find the right therapist to begin slowly approaching the enormous mass of trauma which had always been looming at the periphery of my vision, and then years with that therapist to slowly (painfully slowly) stabilise myself, learn techniques and train myself to be able to approach those feelings safely and begin working with them. I think it will be a life-long journey to fully understand and manage those feelings and be able to live with them... I hope more Autistic people get access to actually appropriate mental health care, it's really an unaddressed crisis.

[@LucaAnamaria]

​@@theoldaccountthatiusedtous6767 Did the therapist not give you resources on how to handle the overwhelm? Feelings can absolutely be overwhelming, even for neurotypicals.

[@vilukisu]

There is a particular problem in trying to correct avoidant behaviours where there actually tends to be the opposite: seeking behaviour. Maladaptive avoidance is a real thing but so is lack of necessary avoidance. It has a lot to do with the fact that for some things, avoidance is the rational behavior, but descriptions of that can be interpreted as "patient finds a [seemingly normal thing] distressing" which then is mistakenly treated with exposure based therapy.

[@LucaAnamaria]

@@vilukisu Can you give a specific example?

[@graceface418]

CBT kinda feels like Gaslighting in ways. I've had to tell my therapist to stop using CBT techniques at points. Like, I understand she's trying to be helpful but I'm feeling dismissed, invalidated, & disregarded by what she's saying

[@gilashroot8697]

So interesting. I learned something new, but after reading your comment, it seems so obvious 😂.

[@fatimaallawati947]

me too I had a therapist that does CBT and that's what I felt in a NUTSHELL TYSMM for sharing

[@siljrath]

Exactly. Gaslighting. Dismissive. Invalidating.

[@fatimaallawati947]

@@siljrath I had a CBT therapist and I didn't benefit much so I thought that it was the therapist and not the modality Now Ik tysmmm

[@fatimaallawati947]

Also idk why internet articles for the most part are like CBT is ok but then his video isn't like that Yes even those that feature CBT AND Autism

[@DamnMandi]

CBT has been very harmful to me. It was before my ASD diagnosis, and I’ve never felt so “crazy” it seemed my therapist did not believe me and I was creating scenarios to make my life harder. My relationship with my current therapist also began in CBT, but during the first or second session, when she started talking about tools to deal with humans better, and trying to adapt to my environment, I was extremely clear and said: “creating all these tools and strategies has been killing me. I need to accept that my brain works differently, and that it is hard and that it is ok having a different pace on learning or having less energy. I can’t go on masking, because it is hurting me.” Surprisingly, she understood what I was saying and we choose other types of therapy.

[@aspidoscelis]

This was basically my experience as well: "it seemed my therapist did not believe me".

[@Judymontel]

What other types of therapy did you use?

[@lemondedejane8453]

Hi! I want to ask you, if it'd not too personnal you ,feel okay to not respond to my question. I want to know when you masking and you fell hurt but keep it for you, is it hurt more and more with the time? ( sorry for my english, i'm canadian french. I hope my question is clear) I ask that because I felt that==> '' I can’t go on masking, because it is hurting me.” in my jobs it was awful at the point my superior said to mee than i wasn't able to manage my emotions. It was a problem for everyone... but keeping it inside was too hurfull so i decide to react, in the best situation and in the worst i was crying non stop...event someone take me appart and have kindness and comprehension. I was ashamed . Know I fight to have a diagnosis .

[@aspidoscelis]

@@lemondedejane8453 For me, yes. If I'm masking in a situation I find emotionally stressful, it feels like my emotions are just kind of piling up in a corner somewhere, and I can pretend they aren't there for a while. If the pile grows past a certain threshold, I collapse. I mostly keep that out of view-get home, then collapse. It's not always possible, of course.

[@kathjz3626]

This sounds like a problem with the therapist, rather than the type of therapy they use. It's never okay when the client feels like they aren't believed.

[@miadifferent7306]

When I started looking for therapy I avoided CBT at all cost. - I didn’t want to think my way out of problems and aim to better myself. I wanted to get in touch with my authentic self and FEEL who I am and what I need.

[@jliller]

So you wanted to be neurotypical? Because that's what NTs are: emotional, irrational creatures who avoid thinking because thinking is hard.

[@heedmydemands]

Yes I feel the same about wanting to open up to getting to know myself

[@bbdn5123]

Please tell me sis, what have you found that works for you?

[@bbdn5123]

I found something new. A holistic approach. Scared to call momentarily. In the past massages, acupuncture, cupping and neurofeedback for specific things helped me somewhat to go forward with life. Right now started with EMDR. Feels off and icky with this "therapist" who's a trainee and I have a lifetime of trauma build up inside me. Not sure to ask for another, maybe the next one feels even more off. I believe I have the feeling she's just there to do her work and not for my best interest. Something like that. I feel like I just "have to push through". 💗 Hope and faith are medicine for the soul. May the One Who Sees and Hears everything and Who is the Knower of what's in our heart make our hardships lighter and easier to carry, may we be truthfully guided by the Light, may we be blessed by our Provider, may we be shielded against all evil and wickedness surrounding us and what's within ourselves by our Protector, may we experience comfort, joy, peace, kindness and love truthfully, ameen. Sincerely, your sister in faith. ☝🏽💖🌌💫

[@vectorworm]

omg this is exactly my experience with therapy right now. you put it into words so nicely.

[@slothape]

CBT made me feel like I needed to tell myself nice-sounding stories in order to feel better rather than looking at reality for what it is. Its like the real world is so painful that you need to create a fantasy world in your head just to get through it.

[@fleshedexperience]

It's disillusioning that this is all there is to the gold standard evidence based treatment, isn't it? :/

[@Arkylie]

@@stardust86x I think one of the issues with this sort of technique is that it gets used too broadly. Like, there are certainly experiences that were objectively bad, where reframing your emotions doesn't change that they were bad. And there are situations that were objectively neutral, but where your emotional reaction to them is itself bad enough that reframing the emotion isn't the right tactic. On the other hand, there are many situations that we make worse by reacting in a way that we *can* change, and that is where CBT has value. There are many times when I've been stuck in an emotional reaction to something -- resentment, or irritation, or weariness, or anxiety -- and I've been able to notice that pattern and start considering whether it's reasonable to feel like that and whether I could adjust my feelings to make the situation feel better. The situation might still be there, the situation might even be inescapable, but my reaction to it is largely within my control. I call this "The Iphigenia Principle," after the girl in classical mythology who was going to be sacrificed to the gods so her father could win a war. She didn't have the option of not being killed, but she did have the option of how to react to that reality. It wasn't fair, and it wasn't something she should have gone through, but she got to exert control over the only part that she *could* control. So like When I was a kid, my mom would buy enough treats (e.g. popsicles) for the whole family, but I'd only get mine if I ate it when everyone else was eating theirs. If I didn't want it right then, and left it in the freezer, when I looked for it later I'd find out that my dad (it was usually my dad, sometimes my brother) had eaten it. This wasn't fair to me, my dad's response to my complaints also wasn't fair, and it was reasonable to feel outrage and deprivation over having my treats unfairly taken away just because I didn't eat them right away. This trained me in a scarcity response to treats: I feel like if I don't eat the yummy thing right now, I won't get it later. So I'll eat it even if I don't feel like eating right now, and I'll overeat comfort foods because it feels like I might be deprived if I don't. But this is silly; I'm an adult, I have an income, I can buy my own comfort foods, and I don't need to fear missing out on delicious things. So while the original reaction was understandable, my current reaction has just led to me eating when I don't want to eat, and taking on too much weight, and it would be good to retrain my brain. CBT is one way to help me recognize the trigger, stop and pay attention to my feelings, redirect my feelings, and change my behavior. So I hope it will help change my habits so they are no longer hurting me *now* as a response to the hurt I had *then*

[@ruthkolman3026]

YES! I never had the therapy (that I know of, I'm sure therapists used those techniques, I've had lousy therapy experiences so far) but a therapist recommended the book to me and the book only made me increasingly angry until I stopped reading it around halfway through. It really just seemed like making shit up to make yourself feel better, but not dealing with actual problems. And the tone of the author was so arrogant and self-congratulatory. I quickly found myself hating him.

[@user95395]

i actually think this is how nt people survive. they easily brush away emotional topics with intuitive lies.

[@pedroba76]

I had the same impression.

[@isabellefaguy7351]

One of the problems is that doctors and other professionnals won't believe we can possibly have been through so many difficult life experiences such as violence victim several times, abuse by parents, domestic violence victim as an adult, homelesness, etc. Because a NT person may go through one of these situations we got through, but not as many, not tens of situations by their 30's. So we're viewed either as saying lies to get attention, either as people who are seeing the reality worse than it is. We're seen as irrationnals because how could our life be that bad?

[@gertrudelaronge6864]

I know what you mean.

[@Jae-by3hf]

This! This is my life & people think that I am lying or exaggerating!

[@red_velvetcake1759]

NT people can go through this much trauma too, I'm NT and I've experienced abuse from my parents, multiple relationships, r*pe and have been homeless twice. I totally agree though that people who haven't been through this much don't seem to comprehend that we have or the effects it has on you.

[@Janaely]

@@red_velvetcake1759 I think they were referring to being autistic can be traumatic all by itself, and also to the bs we received *due to* being autistic, not that NTs don’t experience those events. Edit: If you aren’t autistic, then you don’t have those particular additional layers of trauma and that’s truly awesome. I hope you’re doing okay with whatever you’ve been through 💞

[@SotraEngine4]

Yes. This also makes NTs like roll their eyes and ignore me when I vent. Which seems really unfair when they vent for something smaller Me venting about diseased relative and how this time death came as a friend Their reaction: huh (yes, only that, if anything at all) Them venting about coworkers being slightly annoying Gets all the support So I've started to suppress and only talk about stuff when it feels huge

[@BanjoPixelSnack]

I don’t think I am autistic but I have ADHD. I found CBT made things far worse. I couldn’t get my therapist to understand that I already had coping and masking mechanisms developed during my childhood and my constant exhaustion and burnout was *because* of my coping strategies not the lack of them. I had to manage myself so tightly to keep in check all the time. I felt gaslit by being told that somehow I’m choosing to be ADHD and I just needed to choose other ways of doing things. I then had a massive overwhelm meltdown from all the added “strategies” and homework I was given. I would look at all those sheets of instructions and the daily thought diary I was supposed to keep and have a panic attack. CBT felt like pouring gasoline into an already blazing fire.

[@jessiej1473]

You are not the only one who felt CBT was gaslighting you. DBT worked better for me. I hope you find a therapy model that works for you.

[@neuralmute]

@@jessiej1473 Interesting - DBT had the same negative effects on me. I'm autistic and 'quiet' ADD, and was more or less told by my therapist that I just wasn't working hard enough and didn't want to get better, if I wasn't willing to follow every rule of the program without question. Those are terrible things to be telling someone who is going through extremely difficult life circumstances outside of existing neurodivergence, to the point of being ready to unalive themself! But I was also placed with a therapist who was a bad fit as well, and the program didn't allow for a change, in spite of the therapist's near-toxic positivity, and my cynicism and dark humour.

[@jessiej1473]

@@neuralmute Wow, that sucks. Following every rule without question? That's a terrible idea! Therapy is supposed to be adapted to the individual, otherwise you're not addressing the full person with all of their circumstances. And it sounds as if they didn't even listen to you. I'm so sorry you had such a bad experience. I hope you're okay now. I never meant to imply that DBT was the best therapy for autism, merely that it worked well for me (probably because I had a therapist who worked with me and my needs, someone who pivoted when I needed them to and broke the rules of the program because otherwise they would exacerbate my OCD). I also enjoyed the Interpersonal Skills, the Emotion Regulation skills and the Distress Tolerance skills (activating the dive reflex was fantastic for stopping a full-blown panic attack in its tracks).

[@Pushing_Pixels]

@@neuralmute Some psychologists and therapists are just not equipped to deal with neuro-divergent people. They have a limited toolkit and a script that they run off and that's it. As the video said: when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. These therapists only have hammers. They can't deviate from what they know, or think on their feet well enough to adjust to the client. They often don't have much experience, only their training. Sometimes they just lack empathy too. Finding a therapist that's right for you can be a whole process, and it can take quite a few tries before you find the right one. If you don't have much money this can be a real problem, as you may not be able to afford going from therapist to therapist finding what you need. If you're poor often the only therapy you can access is what's provided by various programs designed to assist the poor. In those situations you get what you're given, take it or leave it. You don't have the luxury of shopping around. Hopefully you are able to find one that fits with you.

[@angelahull9064]

​@@Pushing_Pixels this is what's going on. No matter what kind of therapy you choose, they are only as good as the therapist.

[@arielnecessary1615]

I had CBT, but it didn't help me. I felt like it was mostly gaslighting me. The therapist also criticized me a lot. Autistic people are constantly being criticized anyway, so that just added to my feelings of inferiority. A really annoying criticism was when the therapist criticized me for having autistic traits. Well of course I have autistic traits! I have autism. Of all the people who should understand autistic traits, I would think that people in the mental health field would understand them. The therapist's toxic positivity caused me pain too, since I felt like it dismissed the realities that I have to live with. My conclusion from all of this is that CBT is not good for autism. At least, it wasn't good for me. It caused me a lot of harm. Excellent video, by the way.

[@515aleon]

Though I think the effect of being constantly criticized would be damaging regardless of what therapeutic practice the therapist allegedly used. Sounds like a horrible therapist and sorry you experienced it.

[@swissarmyknight4306]

(Undiagnosed/on a wait list) Yeah, my therapist did CBT with me and then acted like it was my fault it wasn't working. Actively argued with my autistic traits and coached me to "go out in the world more" and "socialize more", then acted like it was my fault I was getting worse. Yeah, more sensory overload and more social exhaustion will make me more depressed and anxious. I'm lucky I have autistic friends. I'm on a sensory diet and socializing when I feel like it and doing much better while I await assessment.

[@Judymontel]

@@swissarmyknight4306 What is a sensory diet?

[@serenitygoodwyn]

Unfortunately, I think a lot of highly narcissistic people get drawn to fields like psychology and medicine. In my experience you are more likely to meet someone like that in those fields than in the general population. The power dynamic is appealing to them. It sounds like you encountered one. They are harmful in all walks of life they are especially damaging in such roles. I think CBT is not as broadly helpful as people think and an the hands of someone like that is down right harmful to all people but especial to someone with Autism.

[@jimwilliams3816]

I hadn’t thought of narcissism! I’m almost completely unable to recognize narcissists, I think partly because of some alexithymia. I’m always aware that many in the medical establishment are drawn to the idea that by studying medicine they can then have all the answers, and in therapy this is especially harmful. There’s also a matter of perspective: many therapies seem to focus on (to me) overly positive, emotional language (“mindfulness” always throws me), and I have the sense that the warm fuzzies make intuitive sense to therapist neurotypes, but they don’t to me. I am told my description of how I am feeling are mechanistic, and they are, though much of the time I think it’s a difference more than a deficit. And it’s how I process. I can learn some new tricks, but I’m not going to suddenly become someone whose world view is like my therapist’s. I wouldn’t know who I was anymore if I somehow did.

[@SuperUberDae]

CBT felt like a class for how to mask more. This seems like the "wisdom" that everyone /knows/ will work if you "just give it a try". I did try, for about two years, and I feel just as bad if not worse now. But people around me saw me masking more, and to them that read like I was getting better. Now that I've quit therapy, I'm trying not to mask and accept myself as I am. The people around me see a person who is "reverting" to their more depressed state from before. The conclusion seems to them to be that I just like being depressed? Or that I've gotten comfortable with being depressed? They don't understand what a toll masking takes on me and how burnt-out I feel. I'd like to go back into therapy, but I need to find a method that will actually help me to just be me and accept all the ways that my brain is wired instead of trying to work against it.

[@Suzanne4415]

It might be worth looking for a therapist that both has experience & knowledge of working w/ autistic folks, and uses/incorporates ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) in their practice. Because ACT was developed in part to address this kinda toxic positivity undercurrent & other weaknesses of CBT. But I suspect its techniques have to be delicately adapted to work for certain people, like NDs. (I personally haven't mustered the energy to try it yet, bc I'm worried about finding a therapist who gets how a lot of mindfulness exercises don't work as intended with my ADHD mind. But, The Happiness Trap is an interesting book on ACT if you want to check out some core concepts.)

[@_TheShiv]

I absolutely despise CBT. I know it works for some people, which is great, but what gets to me is like that and SSRIs are what you automatically get pointed at no matter your own circumstances. Thank you for putting into words what I hate about it so much.

[@titanqueen7217]

Same here. I refused therapy for years because every therapist my mom made me go to when I was a kid used CBT, and I hated it. I would tell my therapists about how my classmates hated me because they bullied me so much, and the stupid therapists had the nerve to say, ‘No, they don’t hate you, you’re catastrophising’. CBT was nothing but gaslighting and further abuse, by denying my real problems. I’m now waiting to see a therapist who specialises in trauma, and though I’ve been told that I could be on the waiting list for months, I’d rather see a decent therapist than another dirty CBT preaching hack.

[@2cleverbyhalf]

I recently began to suspect I am autistic. I have had severe anxiety for my entire life. I was diagnosed with PTSD. I have went to 3 different therapists. The last one I saw for well over a year and I never progressed. He would say "you overthink everything" or "I have never had a patient that intellectualized everything as much as you do". He kept trying to get me to a feeling place, and when I talked about what made me anxious, which was largely societal issues, he thought I was ducking getting in touch with trauma. Now in hindsight I see so many aspects of my life come into sharp focus if I use autism as a schema. My anxiety was not about trauma. It was about expectations I could not meet. It was about sensory overload. No one broke me, my parents didn't fail me. I am not a broken person. The shrink was often trying to get me to talk about my mom, but we had a beautiful relationship. It was mystifying to me, I would keep on trying to think why I was so damaged inside. CBT was harmful for me.

[@jliller]

"You overthink/overintellectualize everything" is a huge indicator of ASD. I've been told I do that for decades. Unfortunately, that's little known in the general populace, or even among therapists. Nobody ever suggested it meant I had ASD; people just thought I had was an uptight personality who needed to get drunk or smoke some pot so I would loosen up. "when I talked about what made me anxious, which was largely societal issues, he thought I was ducking getting in touch with trauma" ASD results in noticing things nobody else notices and thinking about things nobody else thinks about. If you try to point those things out to most people they don't care, which feels incredibly isolating. It logically follows that this will lead to anxiety and depression. Having a brain that cares about rules, order, and details in a world overwhelmingly populated by people who care about none of those things is traumatic.

[@ZubinMadon]

Read about CPTSD. Often, sadly, goes hand-in-hand with Autism

[@ArtyAntics]

The therapist probably saw it as trauma because as autistics we are prone to dissociate our emotions and body sensations. Sensory and social situations can put us in flight or flight with meltdowns or avoidance. It’s because all these senses are too much to process so it’s not that we are avoiding a specific aspect of ourselves in particular, more that we are saying, please don’t overload my brain as I have limited capacity right now.

[@michaelfreydberg4619]

I have sometimes accused NT people of overthinking.

[@2cleverbyhalf]

@@michaelfreydberg4619 If that was the only thing that made me think I might be autistic I wouldn't be commenting here. A very small list of things that make me think I might be autistic. 1. walked on tippy toes for years as a little child 2. Stimming when I am alone. 3. Naturally ambidextrous until they made me choose a hand. 4. A teacher told my parents I was brain damaged. A couple of years later I was years ahead of my class. 5. Bullied a lot 6. I have engaged in counting things. I dissociate way too much. 7. I cannot drive because it is too overwhelming (which is one of the biggest reasons I sought therapy) 8. My social function is highly "normal", But that is largely because I adapted. I don't like to make eye contact with people, but I do because it makes them feel better. I don't know how to end conversations easily, and I often space out when talking to people which I bet makes them uncomfortable. 9. I threw tantrums for weird reasons when I was little. Then I would shut down for the rest of the day, 10. Picky eater 11. Would engage in repetitive behaviors that I could pass off as practicing. 12. Social justice warrior 13. Doing weird things when I am alone like trying to think of every word that starts with a particular letter. 13. I have had several professors that said I was one of the most intelligent students they've ever had 14. I can do advanced math and understand it extremely well, explain it to other people. But doing math is deeply unsettling to me because in my head I can see the numbers doing things in a way that is extremely upsetting. I avoid math. I think my entire family is neurodivergent. I have an older brother that behaves like the typical Aspergers kid. Complete with head banging and everything is literal to him. My other brother was diagnosed with ADHD in the 1960s when they were just starting to treat kids for that. Both of my parents have autistic traits as well. Which is why the only place I felt safe and understood was at home. My neurotypical sister was often embarrassed of us. She grew up feeling really out of place, ironically. I feel really sorry for her because she felt at home like I feel everywhere else.

[@ガブ水島]

When I pointed that out to my therapist, he told me to "not tell him how to do his work". I never came back to his office after that. Anyway, thanks for talking about such important topics with so much clarity, Paul. Your channel is probably the one helping me the most with this kind of stuff.

[@nata1547]

great that u changed therapist. It is also surprising as in CBT patient is more a 'partner' in problem solving. I still prefer it to psychodynamic therapy that is more hierarchical, as therapist has the 'key' to interpret your experience. It is even more dangerous from my experience.

[@lowwastehighmelanin]

That's gross. I don't know what kind of formal complaint process is available where you are but in the United States one can file an insurance grievance for behavior like this. I work on the industry and take the complaints as part of my job. I am so sorry you experienced that.

[@KanadaJin]

Wow fuck him, glad you never went back! Too many ppl with their own unexamined issues, savior complexes, and desire for power over vulnerable people in the mental health industry

[@Pushing_Pixels]

Some therapists and psychologists actually have really limited skillsets. They know what they were trained to do and that's it, they can't really pivot or think on their feet. Sometimes this is just down to a lack of experience, but in those situations you would hope that they weren't so arrogant as to believe that a patient could never know their needs better. Most psychologists are NTs and don't really get NDs unless they've had personal, lived experience dealing with them. Some also just lack empathy.

[@Iudicatio]

I can relate to all of this. CBT only caused me to ruminate and invalidate myself more than I was already doing. I think the worst part was when I tried to describe experiences of prolonged, extreme ostracism and being the victim of classmates who made violent threats and created detailed fantasies about killing me multiple different times, and the therapist just said "that didn't happen the way you are describing. You are imagining it as worse than it was." As if she could even know!! I am willing to admit that these experiences might have given me an fear of socializing and other people and that I might have avoided people more than necessary at times because of my fear, but I am 100% sure that these things happened. Insisting otherwise is just gaslighting and I just learned not to talk about it and that nobody will believe me when I am in a dangerous situation and need help.

[@shockofthenew]

I'm so sorry you went through that, I'm just a random internet stranger but I believe you. I know it's anecdotal but sadly I've heard of SO many people specifically having CBT therapists invalidate their experiences like that, as if coaching them to gaslight themselves, to disbelieve their own memories and their own somatically experienced emotions. Not everything is a 'faulty belief', sometimes people know exactly what happened to them and how much it affected them, and those beliefs do not need to be challenged. It's the emotional impact of those very real experiences which needs to be addressed - and not in 'challenging' ways, but in gentle, adaptive ways.

[@anoukfleur2513]

Man that sucks... One of the most painful things I find people can do is when they show through their actions that they are too privileged to even be able to understand such a thing that was 'normal' for your life could happen. Anyway I'm just replying because... well if people's privilege is so painful then the flipside is that us telling each other we've experienced pain is relieving. Because it reminds us we're in this together, even though we're apart. So I guess I'll say some of my pain to make sure this works for you like your message works for me. Well the main thing I've been dealing with is when I made an enemy at my university and he spent the entire year viciously bullying me in front of everyone (not physical but he did throw furniture elsewhere) and everyone pretended it didn't happen until I said something back and then it's "both of you stop". No one wanted to hang out with me cuz you'd get bullied yourself etc. etc. long story short I gave up studying math altogether because there is no underlying factor why in this study this would happen and it wouldn't in another, and I'm not going through that again. Specifying math cuz there's ways to study without universities, math is not an option for them though. Anyway ending a comment on a negative note feels wrong so I'll just add this little addendum in here that I kind of already said: I didn't talk about my trauma to make me or you feel bad. I did it because I know in my experience it feels good to both write and read. Maybe not at first but... It's just good to know you're not alone carrying a burden too hard for people to understand. So thank you and I hope this comment helped you too.

[@Iudicatio]

@Anouk Fleur I'm really sorry that happened. I study physics and as you can probably imagine, a large portion of the other students are autistic and nobody ever bothered me. I can't say it was a positive experience because when I started, my entire life centered around masking because of the aforementioned experiences and it consumed so much of my life that I was unable to study much, drowning my feelings in internet addiction, and having multiple meltdowns a week. And I got zero support for these things, even from therapists who just advised me to go back to where I came from. But I just wanted to say, studying does not need to be like that. And it's really sad to hear you gave up on your dreams just because of that guy.

[@Reichieru1]

That's why CBT is bad even if you're not autistic. The therapists often assume ALL unhappy thoughts are irrational and never remotely based in fact. I didn't realize at the time how fortunate I was when the psychologist who lead my group encouraged us to figure out whose opinions mattered, and figure out how accurate others' statements were about us rather than disbelieving anything we say.

[@Marispider]

That is horrifying. As awful as it is to go through something like that, it's made so much worse when you have people with authority in your life telling you "no, that can't be right." Like... if therapy is making you doubt your sanity, that's really bad. CBT is good as a tool, but it has to be used carefully, with awareness that things like prejudice and marginalization exist, bullies and truly awful people exist, and that sometimes, life can just suck. imo therapy should give us the tools to survive through the bad and, if possible, navigate our lives in a better and/or safer direction - it makes me upset seeing or hearing about professionals that seem to think that the solution to depression is literally just "don't be sad/angry."

[@IncendiarySolution]

Clicked on the video thinking this was a different kind of cbt, but I'll take it.

[@515aleon]

I'm not in therapy, but I'm actually a "natural CBT thinker". I *always* think about whether certain feelings etc are appropriate in a situation. I don't think I am a "high masker" in the sense of wanting to "appear" more socially acceptable. I mostly don't care. But what I don't do a lot of is feel things directly--often kind of think to feel. I do not think this is uncommon in autism. I'm in my 70s and had therapy most of my adult life, kind of happy to take a break from it!

[@smileyface702]

Yeah, same. I'm an overthinker. My Freudian therapist called that intellectualisation. Feeling our emotions can be hard! It probably wasn't safe to feel them in the past. I'm super interested in somatic therapies/practices and mindfulness to help me feel and accept my current emotions. It's about reconnecting with the body in the here and now, which is where our emotions live.

[@FeyPax]

I agree with this. Sometimes I feel super disconnected from my emotions and I think that’s why cbt wasn’t AS bad for me like it wasn’t harmful but it felt like a loose bandaid when I wanted a metaphorical surgery.

[@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS]

I think the most useful thing I learned to do in RET (rational emotive therapy), though it wasn’t part of the RET, was to ask this about my feelings: Is there any part of what I’m feeling now related to my past? If so, what? (Meaning, is my past influencing my reaction and to what extent is that appropriate in all fairness to the other people involved in the situation?) What is related to the situation at hand? What about this situation is mine to own? E.g., Was I walking my talk? Does the other person have reasonable expectations? What is the outcome I’d like to see? Those questions would help me decide what I wanted to do next about the situation. Now, not knowing I was AuDHD, other people no doubt had “reasonable” NT expectations that I found to be unreasonable and so, it didn’t help with conflict as much as I might have hoped, but I was fairly clear about my part in situations and that made it easier for me to own that part rather than be defensive as I was trying to understand another point of view. I see an awful lot of NT expecting from others what they themselves don’t deliver, which is pretty dang irrational and maddening.

[@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS]

@@smileyface702 I think for some of us who experienced a lot of trauma in our youth, we went with that strength-the ability to be rational and intellectualise and that helped cut us off from painful and unpleasant emotions (and even acting on them). It’s like our psyche is trying to protect us from that which we’re not ready to process. I know it took me a long time to realise how being in my head got in the way of-took primacy over-my listening to my gut. At some point we become more ready, and then, that’s the challenge… finding the practice and/or therapy that reconnects us to our present moment feelings and intuition. I feel like I lived most of my adult life watching me have emotions and not knowing how to make them work for me.

[@johannesstephanusroos4969]

I'm the same, I'm fighting with my negative thoughts 24/7 😂

[@alison-ip8ky]

I had a terrible therapist who tried CBT to help me with social anxiety and it was just a waste of time. I think at the root the problem is the idea that it's an irrational thought pattern - not that I think people will treat me badly because I constantly face people treating me badly - even strangers I don't even know. I've faced years and years of bullying at school so that's set me up to not like other people. Now I'm that weird looking person that seems okay for others to make fun or make assumptions. I made a list of all the times people were rude, obnoxious of outright bullied me in the two weeks between appointments and she just seemed befuddled on what to say when I just explained how big of assholes people are and how it's just perfectly acceptable to be jerks to people like me. It's not a thought pattern. It's my life.

[@jessicaharris1608]

It's not conspiracy theory if it's real! If you've had person after person be awful to you, you're not deluding yourself. It actually happened!

[@AdorkableHarleyFairy]

CBT hurt my brain so much, talk therapist kept telling me I was doing it wrong 🙄 I was being realistic after years of being abused & needing to search out any/all silver linings. They wanted me to "stay positive," and I was burnt out from performing

[@skylinefever]

CBT is like motivational poster slogans combined with the gaslight.

[@katc3781]

When I was younger, I had to take group CBT therapy if I wanted to have my individual therapist and psychiatrist (and thus needed meds). It was awful. I could never put into words why until watching this. Definitely a moment where I cried because it is such a relief to have these parts of my past make more sense.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

YMMV, I found attending a CBT group and doing absolutely none of the exercises was really helpful in gaining access to some of the emotions that I wasn't having. It always kind of felt like I was roughly opposite of the rest of the group and I probably was. But, I'm not sure that this was any different from other forms of group therapy in that I was legitimately unaware of the emotions that other people have and I don't.

[@FeyPax]

I also did group cbt therapy and since we were all teens none of us took it seriously. We were goofing off the entire time. Although since we were all suicidal, just laughing with each other was nice therapy. But it didn’t give us any long term fixes.

[@katc3781]

@@SmallSpoonBrigade Maybe if I had been allowed to observe and not participate it might have helped. I dunno. That certainly was not an option when I attended. For me, I'm unsure as it would have helped. For as long as I can remember, emotions and language have been autistic hyperfocuses of mine. To the point that it is fairly common for me to identify how a friend is feeling even when they can't, and explain the pathology of their emotions to them. It all makes sense to me on an intellectual level. I don't experience things the same way they do, though. I manage to be both highly emotional and dissociative at the same time, and usually even in my most extreme moments I can think through why I'm feeling that way, but the CBT solutions for that have just never worked for me.

[@skylinefever]

I described it as having to listen to another smug motivational speaking jerk repeat more corporate slogans.

[@Jae-by3hf]

CBT made me worse and I felt like I was screaming into the void when I kept telling MH professionals that it didn’t work for me. Here in the UK they make you feel like if you don’t accept CBT there is no other option and then you just get shoved from pillar to post while screaming toxic positivity at me. I have just finished DBT & the self soothe/Tipp skills have been extremely helpful but the social skills were not. If anyone wants to try DBT, try to do it as an individual and make them know that the social skills do not work for you. My therapist was nice but I don’t think she understood my limitations,

[@Yggdrasilincarnate]

Yeah, it’s so frustrating in the UK that it’s presented as the only option, and if it doesn’t work it feels like you’re just told “well uhh we tried, good luck I guess”.

[@pieflower6419]

@@Yggdrasilincarnate That's exactly what I got!

[@purplejellytotPJT]

I've tried CBT 3 times simply because it's all I've been offered. It hasn't worked or helped any of those times but I keep going back out of sheer desperation because it's all that is provided (for free at least).

[@angelalovell5669]

Yep, it's all they offer. You can also easily come across having your private diagnosis denied because "you said you did well in school, so you couldn't possibly have ADHD". It's like..... you want to make a joke about THEM not doing well in school, but you know that they may well have been educated to believe that ADHD is a childhood condition (what.the.fuck) and far more common in boys than girls (ummmmmmmmm) simply because of medical misogyny and neurodiverse discrimination (I try not to think about the fact that almost every profession requires continued education and awareness of new developments, medicine more than most, even though none of them seemed to have picked up a medical journal since uni). And you only GOT a private diagnosis because you know the NHS is underfunded, badly staffed and doesn't know their arse from their elbow half the time, so it's doubly ironic that they won't accept an outside diagnosis while refusing to assess you for an in-house diagnosis, especially when the person who diagnosed you actually WORKS for the NHS, they only do private work to feed their family properly and provide care to all the neurodiverse people the NHS is fucking with. And then they create self fulfilling prophesies by treating you COMPLETELY inappropriately, providing disgustingly disrespectful and inaccurate alternative diagnoses and being incredibly rude, so you meltdown and they go "AH, SEE?! You ARE fucked in the head, you DO need CBT and YOU'RE the reason you're miserable, life is incredibly hard and you can't make any headway." NB: I support universal healthcare, I'm not an evil selfish idiot, but that doesn't mean I should pretend the shockingly underfunded and undervalued NHS is doing well - it is not, it actively KILLS people with how bad it is. It needs a drastic overhaul, massive massive funding injections and for the Tories to never be allowed near it ever again, policy-wise (and they should be paying for it with THEIR taxes, not those on the working poor).

[@pavlovs-wug]

@@purplejellytotPJT same here. got my first session of a new block upcoming (been on a waiting list for 6 months - things got much worse in that timeframe!). Every time I tell them I need something long-term and CBT doesn't help. Every time they say they can refer me up to proper therapy if it doesn't work. Every time I get to the end of the sessions they say that I have to keep working on it to see an improvement and to re-refer myself if I think I need more support. I re-refer myself. Back to step 1.

[@erinancientelements]

For so long, I have not been able to figure out exactly WHY I felt like CBT was not right for me. Every therapist begins with it and you are almost made to feel guilty if you don't gel with it, but I couldn't articulate the feeling/reason. Thank you so freaking much for doing that for me!! I might also add that it was one of your videos that made me realize I was autistic! Thank you for also helping me begin the journey of self acceptance!

[@loma4507]

I think CBT helped hide my autism from myself and made my social struggles worse. When I had trouble socially in college, and I felt like I kept making social mistakes and needed help to understand what was going on, my therapists would say things like "oh, it's probably nothing! You're doing great!" But then I didn't make any real lasting friendships at school. Ironically, I think CBT made me worse at understanding people and social situations, because I felt that I was getting a vibe from friends that something wasn't working with the way I was approaching social things. Turns out my gut feeling on that was right, but they didn't see anything was wrong because i was much more comfortable one on one and therapists, unlike regular people, don't mind if you infodump about your life haha. so basically started to mistrust my own readings of people. This was all before I was diagnosed btw! Aside from my diagnosis process, I haven't been to therapy since, but I'm curious to hear about other approaches!

[@annab3184]

I did CBT for work procrastination. Turns out it wasn't procrastination but autistic burnout. No wonder it didn't fix things.

[@ryantaintor9713]

Yes, I did CBT before my diagnosis and it ended up that the therapist encouraged me to get a neuropsychic evaluation to get a diagnosis. The possibility came up that someone who specializes in ASD would be more suitable for me. CBT gave me a few tools to deal with anxiety but it did not address ASD issues. For example, giving yourself a chance to practice social skills is good to practice for addressing the fear of loneliness but can lead to social burnout for people with autism.

[@pop-punkreptile5827]

this! me too!

[@Wingedmagician]

CBT was driving me crazy. Aka the “Just think better” Therapy.

[@angelahull9064]

It's hard to find a CBT therapist who instead says, "which thoughts are helping you and which ones are harming you? Let's try changing the harmful thoughts into helpful ones."

[@skylinefever]

I call it "bullshit motivational poster slogan" therapy.

[@francesbaker7233]

I was very recently diagnosed as autistic at the age of 65. I have had decades of counselling and therapy including CBT. Nothing seemed to help until 4 years ago I suspected I was autistic and started to be a little kinder to myself for how I am. I now see a Person-centred Counsellor and for the first time, I am able to really feel my emotions. I can cry through whole sessions and find this so powerful and such a relief to let it out but still feel accepted and understood.

[@orange2896]

@Frances, I'm so glad you've gotten to where you are! I'm totally with you! I wasn't identified as autistic until 50. I started therapy when I was 8 years old and have gone on and off my whole life, seeing ~16 different therapists over those years. None of them helped because they weren't treating the right thing. I was repeatedly misdiagnosed until I figured out for myself that I'm autistic and advocated for myself with my therapist, who, after getting to know me, agreed that I am autistic. Now I'm getting more of the help I need from therapy. That along with a support group for older autistic women, finally has me beginning to find my place in the world and starting to heal from the lifetime of trauma that can go along with being unidentified.

[@kimhillier5092]

❤

[@GordonjSmith1]

About 20 years ago I was proscribed CBT and it was entirely ineffective. 20 years later, and now with an Aspergers diagnosis, what you say now makes total sense!

[@linden5165]

I remember seeing a therapist who was like the mascot of CBT. I didn't yet know I was autistic, I was in fresh big T PTSD, on top of existing cPTSD, parenting small children, sleep-deprived, had just moved cities, in major burnout and barely functioning and starting most days in overwhelm and meltdowns. Her suggested solution was to get up early and go for a walk with a baby and toddler in tow so I could change my perspective on my mornings. It was maybe the most ridiculous therapy suggestion I've ever experienced. I might not have known I was autistic but I could feel how invalidating, gaslighting, judging, uncompassionate and unhelpful it was and immediately switched therapists. There are a few little aspects of CBT which have helped me with a few specific parts of life. But for the most part it does not fit, I do not like it, and there are so many better therapeutic approaches which validate and support my goals. The big thing I find with CBT as I've experienced it is that it never addressed the reality of my needs. Since realising I was autistic and accommodating those and getting support everything has improved dramatically.

[@2cleverbyhalf]

While that advice was probably one of the most dismissive things I can think of if she had given you that advice from the point of view of autism, it could have helped ironically. Not necessarily walking, but developing a routine is extremely comforting to me. I used to walk and it helped me with my depression and anxiety. Not because i was being introspective, but because I really thrive with routines and repetitive movement eases my anxiety. I pace when I am alone, for example.

[@Cai_saN]

I've had a similar experience with mindfulness. I've tried it a lot of times and in different ways but it has only made my anxiety worse. Sadly I haven't been believed or listened to and people have told me that I just need to practice more. But mindfulness doesn't work for everyone. I allready feel my body and everything too much and that's a problem, doing mindfulness makes that worse and I would need something that is the opposite. I think it is the same for many autistic people. Thanks for making great videos!

[@jimwilliams3816]

Thank you for saying that. That has been exactly my experience.

[@skylinefever]

Too many people think one size fits all solutions actually exist.

[@capsulamental]

Hi! I struggled with mindfulness and actually there are a lot of different ways to exercise it depending on your needs. Meditation (classically done like sitting in good posture in a quiet place contemplating your thoughts or trying to get rid of them) was definitely not it for me, but disconnecting from internet and social media while eating, separating the flavors and sensing the textures in my mouth was what I needed to start the journey of living in the present.

[@oldvlognewtricks]

Cognitive behavioural therapy is absolutely like weaponised masking. Total nightmare if the whole problem is you’re doing too much of that already… It’s astonishing that no part of the process checks the suitability of an intervention like this, rather than just throwing interventions at people and seeing what sticks (and fingers crossed it doesn’t traumatise you in the process).

[@gertrudelaronge6864]

An excellent point.

[@shockofthenew]

Exactly! CBT techniques just reinforce all the least healthy masking mechanisms which have traumatised me throughout life: 1) Identify wrong thoughts, wrong behaviours, and wrong feelings. You know they're wrong because the therapist (a neurotypical person) tells you they're wrong. 2) Tell yourself the thought/behaviour/feeling is wrong and you shouldn't believe in it. You shouldn't listen to your mind or body because your mind and body are lying to you. Listen to the therapist instead. You just need to push forward and do what's expected of you. 3) Cognitively control yourself at every moment, question every thought you have, measure yourself by what others think and feel, practice telling yourself over and over again that your own feelings and instincts are wrong. 4) Keep pushing even if it's uncomfortable or painful, because ultimately forcing yourself to behave differently will make you 'better'. 5) If it's not working, that's because you're 'resisting the process' or not trying hard enough. It's just a recipe for burnout, breakdown and retraumatisation. These are messages Autistic people already have pushed on them constantly since early childhood - these messages are often the foundation of Autistic trauma. It's taken me many years to learn how to listen to my body, trust my instincts, and believe in my own thoughts and feelings. I'm glad I realised early on that CBT would hurt me and made sure to steer clear. Unfortunately here in the UK it's not only the standard treatment, but usually the _only_ treatment available on the NHS for any mental health issue, no matter what. So if CBT doesn't work for you there's nothing else available without paying privately.

[@jwork4724]

DANG, Toby that's an AMAZING sentence! Weaponized Masking! Yes, that is exactly it.

[@jwork4724]

@@shockofthenew That's horrible the NHS doesn't cover anything else. I have a friend who works in NHS policy - I will bring this up with him and tell him how CBT as an autistic nearly killed me and lead to worse symptoms because it's essentially masking away my true self. So sorry to hear your experiences but thank you for sharing!

[@toni2309]

Yes, and at the same time therapies that one might find out could be helpful end up not being paid for by insurance. I personally had music therapy before and wanted to continue doing that, but it wasn't possible to access/wasn't paid by insurance.

[@letsrock1729]

I've had CBT twice (for brief periods) and instinctively hated it from the word go. It felt to me as though you were supposed to just sweep all your feelings under the carpet and pretend they didn't exist. Or as though you had to stick a plaster on top of an absolutely massive wound and tell yourself it was only painful/difficult because you thought it was. But of course, CBT is pretty much the only free therapy in the UK, so it gets pushed on you whether you feel it's appropriate for you or not.

[@Teilnehmer]

Well there are some CBT techniques which can be useful. Like just taking a small piece of paper and writing down what you are thinking and worrying about. For a lot of people thats very useful. It's also something that's cheap and easy-to-do. You basically don't really need a therapist for it. I think the problem with CBT is when someone ELSE tries to administer it TO YOU. If you use some techniques on your own it's safer (not perfectly safe, but safer) I keep a few flash cards that I use to organize my life. Sometimes I just write out what stuff is worrying me when I ruminate. Looking at what I wrote down makes it much easier to handle a few seconds later, rather than still being in your head and overthinking. That's a classic CBT technique but it's pretty safe and easy-to-do and very often you don't even need to gaslight yourself telling yourself something didn't happen the way you experienced it. But yeah, when you are suffering from trauma, high sensitivity or emotions that you just have not made sense of or understand and someone "uses" CBT on you: that's dangerously close to gaslighting. ACT, meditation or even just diary writing to process emotions and trauma is much more useful. When suffering from trauma or hypersensitivity the most import thing is to stabilize at first, only once a satisfying level of stability has been achieved can the patient start to process the trauma. The irony is that one of the inventors of CBT actually wrote a self-help book on CBT and it has been shown by studies that it's about as effective as seeing a therapist with CBT. It's still possible to gaslight yourself on your own but you don't have to go through the stressful experience of confronting someone else about stopping that technique. So there is little need to actually see a therapist for CBT.

[@letsrock1729]

@@Teilnehmer Everything you said there sounds great! And I've been writing in journals as a way of dealing with my emotions for over 40 years. So I agree that it's extremely helpful. However, none of what you said was even mentioned/suggested in either of the two periods of CBT I've had. Could you give me the name of that book? I'd like to check it out.

[@badadvice787]

CBT made me constantly loose my train of thought, less talkative and boring. I was already practicing most of the skills at a reasonable level, I think. Currently I struggle the most with sensory meltdowns, sleep, issues and migraines, I think they are all tied together. I haven’t found much reasonable effective treatment. I keep getting told if I do too many things and burn myself into the ground I will function better and my depression will go away. I was born 3 months and 3 weeks early at 2.1 pounds and repeatedly turned blue, because I would stop breathing several times a day. I was “saved” by experimental drugs. I get told I’m smart funny and even charming, but I’m too broken to have a romantic relationship, I keep ruining my chances when I blackout from emotional stress and probably sensory overload. CBT was like poorly translated software for what I was already doing. I have some insightful seeming thoughts, but I have run out of steam typing.

[@internetfasting80085]

Focus on making money, ...cuz "money talks, BS walks" 😂😂 Its the only language humans understand, cash is king, and thats really all any1 cares about...UNLESS they already have it & can indulge in the luxuries of "caring" about anything else 😂

[@16triley16]

Honestly cbt feels the same for me, I told my therapist i feel like it’s a manual for “how to use nuerodivergent thinking as a nuerotypical” and she said that was valid and understands and has seen the harm it can do. Because self awareness and grounding techniques etc are so integral to my daily functioning, if I Try to do those things it becomes a hyperfocus and definitely not sustainable. I get stuck in the same loops I already struggle to get out of except now it’s for x to “Get Better” instead of it just being to survive like it normally is. Like it feels so obvious to me to Not tell someone with ptsd/cptsd to try to be more aware of their surroundings like hello? I know you’ve seen a bad episode of crime show, how did you get there?? Sorry… I started writing this to say I connected with what you said and struggle with the same symptoms.. clearly bc it’s 3am on a Thursday morning and this is normal… don’t get me wrong I for the most like the basic concepts; the colonialism and the logic of calling one mind rational and the one emotional do in fact break me but for the most part I like core of it just like in theory or for other people.

[@barbaramoran8690]

sounds like you have really suffered .I have sensory issues that at certain times in my life were real torture in the environment i was trapped in .What kind of sensory issues do you have >certainly migraines must be horrible .Ive never had one but I doing know how anyone could tolerate them .are you bothered by loud noises .I know any sensory experience can be too much for someone whether it is touch light or sound Autism is a very lonely experience when not understood send complaints not taken seriously Im almost 72 and was diagnosed at 40 .Before that doctors thought I had schizophrenia and I spent years in mental hospital . Someone helped me publish a bio .”Hello,Stranger,My Life On The autism spectrum “ by Barbara Moran as told to Karl Williams It was published by small company and can be bought on Amazon Both paper and electronic format . I think maybe my story might validate your feelings I’d love to hear more about your experience . For you having such a difficult birth and the breathing problem it makes sense that life would be hard .I wish people would consider the impact of that on brain development . FOR ANYONE READING THIS COMMENT PLEASE TAKE THIS PERSON SERIOUSLY .THEIR SENSORY ISSUES ARE PAINFUL AND IF ANYONE COULD KNOW WHAT THIS PERSONS WORLD WAS LIKE THEY WOULD TRY TO BE EXTRA KIND I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE IN OVERLOAD AND HAVE LOTS OF UPSETS . No amount of acting lessons will relieve sensory issues .People who have them must get relief before they can behave better

[@TheWilliamHoganExperience]

To the OP: I'm 58 and 1 year post diagnosis. I've dealt with many of the same things you describe: Sensory assaults from a world geared for the non-autistic. Sleep, energy and low mood problem. Migraines, anxiety, failed romanitic relationships, freindships, and entire careers as an architect and archtecture professor. I'm intellectually gifted, extroverted and social - and autistic. Undiagnosed autism = unsupported autism, and unsupported autism = hell. My advice? Lean into your autism. You are not a failure, you are misunderstood and you are mistreated because of it. It's taken a year for me to fully come to accept and come to grips with my diagnosis. Durring that time I learned to stop judging myself relative to the non-autistic world and it's expectations. If I feel passion for something, I induge that passion to the extent I'm able. Most importantly, I've identified what my support needs are, and I'm taking care of myself. I disclose my autism as early as possible when meeting new people, explain how it impacts me, and what my support needs from them, if any, are. Anyone who refuses to accept me as I am and to respect and support my needs is OUT of my life. I spend as much time stimming and following my interests as possible. Currently it's music, and has been for the past 7 years. Our passions are our gifts, and our gifts are based in love, because we love what we are passionate about. I don't care what it is. I don't care if society values it. If you are interested in collecting and arranging Beanie Babies then do it as much as you can. If you like watching Road Runner cartoons over and over again, do it. Not all autistic people are like Elon Musk, and driven by numbers, finance, Ai, rockets and Twitter. We don't pick our passions. We don't choose our limitations. We have no say in our gifts or interests or where our attention focues. They pick and guide us. We have no choice in the matter, and the matter is about survival. We are driven by love, and love is what we bring to this all too ugly, hate filled world. So of course we suffer. More than most people I suspect, but everyone suffers. As long as you are able to find meaning in your suffering, you can endure anything with love, and even joy, knowing that it's neccessary. So be kind to yourself and others as best you are able, and accept nothing less from those around you, and you'll be ok. As far as romance, stick with other autistic people. They're the most able and likely to get you, and you them. I found such a woman a decade ago, Niether of us knew we were autistic, but we both understood what the other was going through as a result of it, and we've always been there for each other. There's someone out there who'll get you - many people. So don't give up, ok?

[@mikemacedo532]

Paul, thank you for this information, I'm an Autistic therapist, and I often still find myself using a little CBT in my sessions with Autistic adults before I catch myself using it, still looking for more effective therapy tools, and trying to look inward and identify what would work for ME being in my client's shoes, so thank you, and I welcome any other feedback on this!

[@keithwellerlounge74]

Great video. I've always thought CBT to be quite dumb in a lot of circumstances. Suffering from grief or loss for example. This was the case when I went to see one of my early therapists and we didn't get on because she pushed CBT even though it was completely inappropriate. CBT is generally saying; you're wrong to feel this way, you're irrational. Basically invalidating your experiences and emotions, and teaching you to manipulate and lie to yourself so that you doubt your natural emotions. If anyone has ever read 'The Chimp Paradox', it's very similar. It's a way of thinking that is applicable to sportsmen or businessmen trying to suppress emotions and human thought in order to gain material success - it's not for depressed people with true mental health issues. Hence why I hated it. I think a lot of NT people/therapists just don't understand how difficult living with autism is, they can't see that rationalising it only makes it clearer that life is incredibly hard. Self-acceptance is probably more important than questioning your feelings in most mental health scenarios to be honest. I happen to think there is nothing wrong with depressed people, they are merely reacting to a cruel, unrewarding world. Also, fantastic to see someone not only calling out toxic positivity, but also explaining why it's a bad thing.

[@JWildberry]

I was undiagnosed, and the therapy itself didn't make me worse, it simply didn't work. The problem was that it weighed me down with guilt. I felt like it was my fault that I was mentally ill (personality disorders, anxiety and depression) for not putting in enough effort. I was talking to a psychiatrist I didn't know when I was being put on new meds, and she registering stuff on the computer about me. When I listed unsuccessful CBT as part of my treatment history, she just casually mentioned that she wasn't surprised it hadn't worked for me since it normally doesn't have a positive effect on us. It was so surreal. She was just typing and taking down standard info, not even looking at me. It was just a casual little comment from her that she didn't even think about, and it removed a burden of guilt that I had carried for 20 years.

[@gertrudelaronge6864]

I've had limited success with CBT in the past. And, what you said does ring true for me. I do tend to over-think things, and suppress my emotions. So, CBT really is the wrong therapy for me. That's so validating to hear. It all makes sense now. Thank you for the helpful information.

[@JordanSkinner314]

Any therapy or treatment modality is made by human beings and is subject to human error. I really appreciate videos like this because it's important to discuss the limitations and drawbacks of any innovation, even if it purports to have had a lot of successes. Especially with regard to mental health - while there's been a lot of good done to destigmatize needing help, a lot of the time that also comes with people (professionals and civilians) being dogmatic about their preferred form of treatment/intervention and shaming people for rejecting that particular form of help. We need to understand that people are individuals and need different things, and that no treatment is perfect.

[@IrritatedGnome]

Cbt is working for me and has really changed my life for the better. However, I notice some things that you mentioned like masking and burnout have been on my mind a lot lately. I’ve been using meditation on my own in conjunction with cbt and I feel like that has helped me remain in touch with who I am and realizing the reality of my situation. My therapist is excellent and does not impose on my perception, rather he encourages me to find the good in my life and write it down because of my tendency to fixate on the bad which we all likely do.

[@RyanBoggs]

Yeah, there are a lot of people here in the comments talking about the bad they experienced with CBT, but I'm not sure that is a problem with the CBT itself as much as the way it is administered. Since CBT is essentially asking you to attempt rational thought as a replacement for conditioned subconcious thought (essentially facing your fears to a certain degree), it requires a certain degree of mental fortitude to accomplish. In other words, I think people who only have a few issues to work out may respond better to CBT than someone who is so mentally ill that they simply can't face their fears without breaking down. Those people may require a stronger treatment like medication to help them get to a place where CBT might work better for them. I've had a self-CBT mindset for many years, and it is a slow grind, but I am certainly better off in a lot of ways than I was a decade or so ago.

[@aiqluxo1900]

Love the tip about talking to the therapist beforehand and evaluating their reaction to having the patient giving some directions and taking a more active role. It is true that therapists that are stuck in their ways will dismiss you straightaway and send you a ‘let ME do my job, I know better than you’ type of vibe. I avoid having that talk because I’ve gotten the nasty reaction the few times I tried. And you just turned it upside down for me. I should have it exactly *because* of that reaction, so I can take it as a warning to run for the hills and find another professional :)

[@slorglord]

CBT was a huge factor which caused me to stay in an abusive relationship thinking that I was the problem. This was years ago and I am only now considering that I may be autistic so 🤷‍♀️

[@marketingpower]

THANK YOU SO MUCH ! That is SO true... I've seen psychologists for 10+years and it was always more harmful than helpful. I came to the exact same conclusion as you, CBT is dangerous for autistic people. Especially undiagnosed. It leads me to so many burnout, I mean psychologists in general, when they try to find solution to emotional problems through language, whilst the main problem is the lack of common language and communication more likely, not the problem itself

[@jamesfv1]

I’ve always wondered why I’ve worked so so hard in a decade of therapy but all it did was taught me how to suppress myself for others.

[@katyalambo]

I am currently taking a course in counselling theories and got to the sections on behaviour therapy and CBT around the same time I began suspecting I am autistic. I was having a visceral reaction against everything I was reading and this video really helped me understand why. I have been in therapy for anxiety and depression for the past 8 years and my early therapists mainly practiced CBT. I really didn’t find I was making much progress and eventually sought out my current therapist who is much more eclectic in her approach. I did recently disclose to her how I believe I have ASD and plan to share this video with her. I will also be sharing it with my classmates 😊

[@sophiemandese6989]

I hated CBT. It feels like a surface solution to what's likely a much deeper problem. Instead of addressing WHY you feel a certain way, it feels like it's all about trying to CHANGE how you feel. When I did it they did a brief check of my history then only focused on how I was acting at that moment, as if it wasn't all built on years of trauma (and not understanding my autism too). From my understanding the logical mind that chooses it's actions rationally and the sub-conscious which holds onto trauma are two very different things, so you can't logic yourself out of the root of most trauma. For example, I was terrified of the dark into teenage-hood and no matter how much exposure I had to darkness every night and how often I logically remembered I was safe, the fear continued. I'm doing EMDR now and I'm seeing much more benefits addressing and processing past memories than I ever did trying to will myself into acting differently in the present moment.

[@GrandDuchessAniya]

This makes sense because my therapist said I was confrontational when we tried CBT! We only tried it once, and now I understand what could have been the problem.

[@jimwilliams3816]

Yeah, I got defensive. It can feel like being told you’re doing everything wrong. If feeling that way is a trigger, and it sure is for me, it’s kind of a problem. But of course I must have been doing CBT wrong, cause it works if you let it right? Not exactly an upward spiral, LOL.

[@russellbaker2611]

Thank You so much for this - The go-to therapy for the NHS in the UK is CBT, and I was forced to do it, although I explained that I was Autistic in the initial assessment - I had the strength in the group therapy to say this was triggering and harmful to me, but had to go through the 6 group sessions to get on the waiting list for therapy, which I will send a link to this when I finally get a therapist assigned. We still have so many gaps in the NHS re Autistic Therapy support. Paul you are brilliant! Thank You

[@globalheartwarming]

Did you try person-centred? If not, have you read descriptions of it or by therapists offering it and thought it might or might not be helpful?

[@JonoRob]

I have been contemplating this question for a while. Prior to being tested for ASD it was the constant offer from my GP and as an ASD person it was the least likely thing that I wanted to do. I was tested age 58 Thanks for all the interesting and useful videos

[@treschlet]

This is such a tremendously, powerfully, validating and important video. I've had a bad taste in therapy my entire life because they all just say the same stuff all my school teachers always said when I was a kid. It's all just patronizing. I'm just starting to realize that I've been high-masking since I was extremely young, which has made it difficult for myself and others to diagnose my problems. ADHD was always the diagnosis but existing therapies and techniques and even medications never really helped long-term. This is the first time I've ever had hope that there's a possibility of getting therapy that doesn't just make me feel at best insulted. Thank you for posting this

[@stvbrsn]

Many years before I was diagnosed (in my mid-forties) I saw a cognitive therapist. I found it very helpful at that stage in my life. But this was in the mid to late 90’s and as I alluded, then it wasn’t called “cognitive behavioral therapy” just “cognitive therapy.” At least that’s what my therapist called herself. I still find myself using (to positive effect) many of the tools she taught me, some 25 years after ending my therapeutic relationship with her. I believe she was an LSW.

[@emiliak966]

I think Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Cognitive Psychotherapy are two different things

[@stvbrsn]

@@emiliak966 yes, I suspected as much, that’s why I mentioned the distinction. I want sure if it developed into CBT over the decades or if it represents a wholly different modality, I haven’t researched it, but I think you’re right.

[@jazzetienne2285]

Social workers have been the best therapists/counselors I've ever seen tbh. I literally recommend mental health social workers to people looking for therapy.

[@innocentnemesis3519]

So validating to see you discuss this topic. I’ve been in and out of counseling throughout my whole life, really. Not one of my counsellors or therapists ever saw the signs and connected the dots. I just could NOT make myself change, especially when it came to social situations. I was in my second attempt at CBT when I realized I might be autistic (also adhd and ocd), and my therapist just totally dismissed me and said I had health anxiety. After he suddenly left my therapy service to go work privately, I am too scarred to try therapy ever again.

[@lethalogicax2474]

Recently had a mental health crisis, nearly reduced my existence to a mere statistic but thankfully overcame the situation and got help. The help I received was a 4 week course on CBT/DBT and I was adamant that it changed my life for the better and even inspired me to become a therapist! But after watching your video just now, I've had an additional revelation... The therapy helped me to overcome my cognitive distortions and taught me incredibly valuable info about the "pathological critic", but often times the therapy came off as very generic or NT-focused. As I started to gain my confidence however, I began to speak up against many of the lessons and politely inform them of how incorrect they were about some things. It often got the entire group chatting and talking about their own personal differences, it was truly inspiring! I think the therapy was so much more helpful for me because I was able to speak up about what works for me and what doesn't... As an example (and maybe something others can use as well) is that eye-contact was strongly pushed as a "critical" piece of conversation. I showed them how it doesn't have to be, if there is a level of communication beforehand. All it takes is simple "I'm sorry, eye contact makes me uncomfortable. I will be listening to you, despite the fact my eyes may wander". Just like that, you have given yourself permission to feel more comfortable in social settings and made communicating easier! In a similar way, you may find other pieces of CBT/DBT that can be tweaked to the specific needs of the patient!

[@stefanbernhard2710]

I always felt something was off with cbt. It's like I was being repeatedly gaslit. This video put some of those feelings into focus and now i know to jump ship. As a side note, I've recently been more aware of the silly power dynamics neurotypicals engage in on a subconscious level. Its like their mirror neurons are in overdrive. It's truly petty-im surprised this isn't discussed more.

[@racheloldridge4986]

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of any of that and I wish I'd known before. My sister, who wasn't diagnosed but I strongly suspect was autistic, suffered from depression and had CBT at one point. It did nothing for her, and what you said about it encouraging that unhelpful overthinking really reminded me of how she was.

[@EarthLovingFrequency]

Thank you ! Thank you! Thank you! I'm 62 and my awesome therapist just gave me an official diagnosis last week, before that I'd seen a string of therapists (starting with family therapy as a tweenager) NONE of whom helped much (more than one who did actual harm!). Until I found my current therapist (who I resonate with!), therapists just did CBT as a matter of course, and I knew it was wrong for me, but didn't have words to explain how/why (except that I'm "very insightful" and "say that stuff to myself already"). Thank you for giving me the words to articulate this better! Your channel has helped me so much! Much gratitude 🙏🏾‍🙏🏾‍🙏🏾‍🙏🏾‍🙏🏾‍

[@EarthLovingFrequency]

P.S. I finally found a good therapist when I realized that someone I feel I "resonate" with (or more importantly: who feels like she resonates with me!) was the key. When I realized that was the important criteria, I found a great therapist (for me!) right away. I'm sending her the link for this video!

[@Luceisamisfit]

I have been trying to find the words to explain why my not wanting to do yet another round of CBT isn’t a “refusal to accept help”. Thank you for giving me the words to do so.

[@mike-williams]

I have had two therapists use CBT on me. The effect was to not only permanently nail down the proximate traumas in my memory, but dug up some more from my childhood to deal with forever after.

[@itisdevonly]

Thank you so much for making this video. I did CBT with my first therapist and although I got some benefit, the benefit came mostly from the relationship with the therapist, not the CBT. Later I tried CBT with a different therapist and it was a complete waste of time. Eventually I came to hate CBT. After discovering I had CPTSD, I sought out a new therapist and explicitly requested that we not do CBT. He then casually suggested in the first session that I take a look at some CBT worksheets, after which I sent him a 6 page essay on the issues I had with CBT and why I was unwilling to take that approach. There are many problems with CBT, and it's an especially poor therapy of choice for both autism and trauma. I am both autistic and traumatized, and I only started recovering when I found the right kind of therapy for me. I'm so glad you made this video, because you really encapsulated many of the issues I had with it, but you did it so much more succinctly than I ever could.

[@leandrogomes2132]

Thank you for your video, you described very well my thoughts and needs! I was recetly diagnosed with ASD and I am trying to find the best therapy. My situation is exactly as you described: I tend to struggle a lot to get in touch with my feelings and express them, because I am a very rational person and I am allways overthinking. It seems that my mind blocks in social situations, which prevents me from acting, being more spontaneous and connect with people. That causes me more harm than good to me and to others, because due to that blockage they misinterpret me. And as you mention, I feel that what I need is precisely the opposite to CBT (pause and think), because that is what I do all the time. What I need instead is to learn how to disconnect my rational mind and align more my feelings to the worl around me.

[@peterwynn2169]

CBT for me was like trying to use a 1997 Toyota RAV4 to pull a caravan. I had a housemate who didn't understand this. Your example of how CBT can be useful can be applied to neurotypical ex-POWs (to give an example, I remember, 25 years ago, an annual ex-POW convention was going to be held at a golf club owned by a Japanese company and a POW wrote a letter to the newspaper lambasting this saying that every time he heard a Japanese voice it sent him back there. What he needed was to have someone say to him, "Okay, if you go to a golf club owned by the Japanese, the drink waiter might be Japanese, but the drink waiter won't hit you over the head with their tray, and the drink waiter probably wasn't even born at the time you were a POW."). Okay, I am not comfortable with male doctors because I was sexually abused when I was younger and am more in touch with my feminine side. That doesn't need CBT, nor does it need exposure therapy, it needs understanding and accommodation. I had a counsellor tell me that I tended to analyse my feelings rather than express them. Having a psychologist who doesn't understand autism is akin to trying to change a car's spark plugs with a screwdriver.

[@EsaKarppinen-oo7nc]

When I first started therapy, the therapist was the first person to point out I was autistic. He was autistic himself as well. We went through the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy regime, which is a type of CBT. I got the hang of it very very quickly, and I suppose it helped me live with anxiety better than before. After it was done, I still feel I wasn't being met as an individual. It felt very clinical. Effective nonetheless. I'm now in the process of finding another therapist, who would be more suitable.

[@daronbougie5391]

I'm in CBT right now and it is helping with ADHD. The overthinking can be classed as a "safety behavior" that if it is causing anxiety symptoms, can be replaced with another "coping" tool. For example, breathing and clearing your mind. It also helps with PTSD. As someone with ADHD and PTSD who over schedules myself and takes on too much, who also gets disorganized easily and fears forgetting things and forgetting things while in verbal conversation, I have found CBT to be very helpful paired with Occupational Therapy. Basically- I have to be organised on purpose, while making sure time I schedule includes time for me to exercise and rest properly, as well as making sure I remember that I do not need to information seek at every problem. Excessive info seeking is also a safety behavior, linked with excessive reassurance seeking. However! None of these are bad things to do! They just need to be replaced if they are being done to ease major anxiety because it tends to not work anyways, it tends to cause more. So CBT basically helps a person problem solve ways to solve problems in a way that doesn't just cause more anxiety. To help steer away from unhelpful safety behaviors that are causing more anxiety in the long run. However I have noticed I have burnout and what looks like Anhedonia and it's not so helpful with that aside from knowing rest and exercise needs to come before overscheduling.....hope that helps. Just wanted to say it has helped a lot with adhd.

[@stronglanguageus]

I haven't read all 967 comments, but I couldn't agree more with this video and the top page here (hi all!). I'm sorry we all had to go through this rigamarole of CBT. I appreciate that it helps other people, and I can see clearly why it would work in theory (and why I therefore thought it should work for me - I was undiagnosed and clueless), but I can't bear hearing people wax poetic about it because of my own bad experiences. So frustrating!

[@annewray2436]

Very insightful video. In the past, I have dealt with eating disorders, self harm and suicidal ideation. (Thankfully, I have been doing well in the last years. ) For most of those issues, CBT and DBT are recommended to find skills to deal with emotions so they don't become overwhelming and lead a person to act out in harmful ways. While I think there are a lot of good, practical skills in these therapies and I think they have helped me a lot, they might contribute to mental rumination. Dialectical thinking can be great but it also can be overload like emotions can. What you said made a lot of sense about autistic people often needing to know their emotions (sorry if I am paraphrasing this incorrectly). I was diagnosed on the spectrum about 11 years ago at 48. My destructive behaviors and not active and that is huge, yet my mind feels overly active and analytical so that it can be difficult to know what I am feeling. I am constantly commenting in my own mind about what's happening rather than experiencing it. I think other factors such as living alone contribute to my overactive mind. Being trained in DBT/CBT may also have contributed. Thank you for your insights.

[@emilienorman-fortin]

Thank you so much for putting into words what I’ve been trying to explain to a few medical professionals. I’m so thankful that I have a psychologist who is aware of ND, and actually is the person thanks to whom I now know I’m ND. Their approaches are a much better fit than all the CBT I did in the past. We use a mix, but I’m really reconnecting with my body, my feelings. Exactly like you said!

[@joannedj1]

This makes a lot of sense. Cognitive, after all, relates to thinking, and if you have an ND brain, you think in a very different way to those with NT brains, so it stands to reason that CBT may not be all that helpful, and may be quite harmful in some cases. Just seems that, like a lot of things in life, one thing becomes “the thing to have” as though there is a one size fits all solution, and in therapies, CBT gets pushed as the big thing. But there is no one size fits all solution to anything in life, and there are a great number of therapies out there.

[@nicolassmith1278]

Hi pretty lady. How are you and your family doing today? And how is the weather over there???

[@razi_man]

I'm so glad you put Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in the title because I would have thought the CBT meant something else entirely.

[@Pozzaa90]

🤭

[@skylinefever]

It would be far less painful for me to get a nutcracker than go to therapy.

[@serenitygoodwyn]

The more research is done on CBT the less effective it is being shown to be, but doctors are still working on decades old research. I've not been diagnosed with ASD although given any online test generally comes back with 'go see your doctor NOW' I probably am, I just don't think at this point in my life another diagnosis will help. I had CBT when I was younger, and my experience was exactly as you said. Giving someone who is already too rational and practically orientated an excuse to further over analyse something, whilst asking them to ignore granted less likely but still entirely possible outcomes, really doesn't help. The therapist got quite annoyed when I kept pointing out that whilst the 'worst case' I had suggested (which was never worst case, I mean no one died or similar) was rational and possible, only less likely. They wanted me to ignore that less likely scenario which just caused me more distress. I ditched that approach and started focusing on the the worst case, learning to sit with the feelings worst case created. I also considered what action I could take should worst case actually happen. That helped massively, I later discovered that the Stoics took that approach thousands of years ago. Interestingly, the parent therapy of CBT was based on Stoicism, they just missed out a lot of the actual helpful bits in my opinion. I do think some of this has now been adopted by later generations of CBT, but I've never gone back because Stoic philosophy is a much more complete philosophy of life, rather than the few abstracted tools that therapist take from it.

[@Stormbrise]

I told my doctor when offered the second round of CBT is that my logical brain rebuked at the ideas of it, only the perfectionistic thoughts helped. No one brushes their teeth perfectly, so you cannot do things ‘perfectly’ all the time. Part of being diagnosed here as an adult woman in Denmark, I had to jump through hoops of the system. My doctor followed rules of: SAD diagnosis, since I first talked to her about feelings in the winter, then being severely depressed in the summer led to Clinical Depression, then that was followed by the addition of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, then a round of CBT, try to live with this for about 2 years, still struggle, get offered CBT again, then have to flat out refuse it as the individual, then look at file and finally get sent to intake for an autism diagnosis. Wait the 6 months, then hopefully get sent to ADHD/Autism psychiatric center for a diagnosis. Again waiting six months for that appointment. The process took me from winter 2014 until intake at the psych center almost to the day 4 years later. When I first asked about an autism diagnosis. That was when I was given a different depression drug for my clinical depression. A year later it was CBT 10 week course, at which point that next christmas when I went home to visit my family in the States. I got into an argument with my sister that who was telling me think happy thoughts and smile, and you will be happy, I told her it did not work for me. I got lectured about it, as if CBT was not enough. Some reason saying something logically does not make sense to you, did not fly with my sister. Now, she gets it. Her husband was diagnosed about the same time I was.

[@MerrilyMerrilyMerrily]

Thanks very much for that analysis of CBT, you’re absolutely right. I am constantly observing my behaviour-bad or good. I know I can think whatever I want to, argue the toss, thoughts are a dime a dozen and apt to change on a dime. what I have a lot more trouble with is changing how I feel. Tony Atwood says there is absolutely no point in seeing a therapist or a psychologist unless they have a specific interest in or a very good knowledge of Autism and Aspergers.

[@PhoebeK]

I was fortunate that when I sort out a private therapist in the UK I found one who was trained as an integrated therapist meaning she was trained in multiple methods of counseling and we could use tools from many methods as were relevant to my struggles. This was around the time I was first exploring if I was autistic and she (unlike my GP) thought it distinctly possible, I was finally diagnosed autistic 6 years later. Personally, if I should need therapy again I would seek a counselor trained in integrated therapy as they can adapt more easily to situations than someone trained only in one type of therapy.

[@lindaward1005]

Thank you for putting more organized words and thoughts to my angst with CBT. I’m tired of being told I’m choosing to be depressed/unhappy/anxious because, “clearly”, I’m not working CBT effectively.

[@Shibby27ify]

See, it can be shallow, doesn't understand context, every symptom serves a purpose. Most therapists don't look underneath depression, of which is usually the shut down response to some sort of overhwhelm

[@ekoester862]

Thank you for making this video. I have tried to put words to how unhelpful CBT has been for me in the past and you explain it really well. I also have alexithymia, and when I finally had a name for that it really helped me explain, to a therapist, that asking me what I feel about something is counterproductive. It is even worse when the therapist interprets my inability to talk about my feelings as unwillingness to talk about my feelings. Apparently, I emote quite strongly, but to interpret my own emotional experience takes me a lot of time and mindfulness and reflection. As an example, I recently was talking to a close friend about a decision I made and she said that I seemed really excited - that I was actually trembling and almost dancing with excitement. Her comment made me stop and take stock of my experience, and I concluded that I was, indeed, very excited! After watching your video, I think that I can explain how CBT is too similar to the process I use to build and maintain my masking for it to be especially therapeutic.

[@NeoOphelia]

I only had a vague understanding of CBT up until a few days ago when someone suggested it to an abuse victim online. I knew nothing about it, but even based just on their suggestions of what to do, I said that it sounded like an easy way to victim-blame and self-gaslight, particularly for abuse victims and people who already spend all their time second guessing everything they do. I acknowledge that it can be helpful for some people, but I do feel validated that my understanding of it and how it may affect those with autism negatively. It very easily can convince someone to stay in a bad or toxic situation because they’re told that they just need to question their perspective and determine if they’re making a bigger deal than it is. Which leads them to do nothing to help themselves because since everyone else is telling them they’re wrong, they will believe they are wrong and not trust their own experience. It sounds dangerous in this context. That person was clearly offended and couldn’t believe I interpreted it this way… except, I’m autistic and have been in abusive situations. So if that’s how I’m taking it, then high chance other autistic people will as well.

[@mreajamorgana]

Can you say what were the suggestions?

[@stillnotstill]

Yeah definitely can be harmful, just like basically any therapeutic or psychological type of thing could be potentially harmful. I've been recently talking to some people about the harmful effects I've had from meditation (in addition to positive effects), and I've definitely had both negative and positive effects from CBT. While my feeling is that people shouldn't necessarily be scared out of trying something, it's also very very important to know that most if not all stuff is not going to be workable for 100% of people 100% of the time. If you think that and then something doesn't work for you, you feel like it's your fault and you feel confused and isolated potentially... That's no good! It's also no good when people recommend mindfulness meditation to me and I tell them no I can't do that and I get pushed towards that despite the fact that it would be very harmful for me in this stage of my life to go in that direction. There are literally billions of people in this world, we're definitely not all the same that something can work for everyone!

[@sarahjensen2473]

Yeah, I’ve talked to my new counselor about asking clients she thinks are delusional/dissociative/psychotic about lifestyle choices like meditation and ketogenic diets. From what I’ve been able to find, it sounds like the differences are minor and hard to recognize, but profound in their outcome. Few people have had the spiritual support that they need, but as more of us are available for casual conversations, we can support those who need it. If you don’t mind me asking, what problems did you have with meditation?

[@shockofthenew]

I also had mindfulness pushed on me as a 'universal cure-all' a few times, and while I can absolutely see how it might help someone else, I generally don't think it's suitable for people with severe dissociation and unresolved trauma. The few times I tried mindfulness it quickly pushed me into intensely dissociated states, or uncontrolled flooding of traumatic emotions. The first couple of times I tried it as a teenager I was by myself and not in therapy yet, and those experiences were terrifying and harmful. Even in therapy I was not able to work with it and the therapist had to give up and use different techniques. I think it's a tool which should be approached carefully and people need to be thoroughly assessed before trying it. I'm actually pretty interested in mindfulness, and know people (who don't have PTSD) who have benefited enormously from it. Maybe once I have several years of successful stabilisation, processing and integration under my belt I'll someday be able to attempt mindfulness again.

[@sarahjensen2473]

@@shockofthenew It’s really bothersome to me how so the side effects of so many treatments are minimized or ignored. It sounds like you figured it out for yourself pretty quickly, but something like that can just cause more trauma to have to deal with. It sucks. I really like getting out in nature and consider walking or hiking to be a better way to meditate. Plus, if something is bothering me, and I’m walking and looking around, I figure it works like EMDR. Anything body-based has been far more effective for my healing. I hope you figure out what works for you!

[@stillnotstill]

@@sarahjensen2473 hi! Yeah basically I store a lot of trauma in my body do the chronic pain, so meditation that is more mindfulness-based really doesn't work for me right now. I used to meditate a while back up to two hours a day and it was really really amazing I saw a lot of benefit from it in terms of just being more calm outside of when I meditated, but I think I really overdid it and freaked myself out and couldn't meditate anymore. I think these two things were two separate problems for me. If you Google negative effects of meditation, you'll find some other stuff too, I think it can be very helpful to be aware that something that people do kind of present as this is going to be 100% safe, isn't necessarily going to work for everybody and is maybe potentially going to even lead to not great things for some people But in general I'm really really a fan of meditation and I hate to scare off anybody from meditation cuz it's really amazing but like it's basically listen to your body. Cuz if a person's body is freaking out then maybe listen to the body rather than force meditation you know?

[@Slow_mo_brain]

I don’t wanna be dramatic so I’ll keep it short thank you so much for helping me improve in my life

[@vaya-dragon1998]

I am autistic and I have severe anxiety, including phobias. I also have sensory issues an anger problems. I have had CBT. It did not help, in fact it made my anxiety worse.

[@alorena_02]

Before I'll even start the video... I already just relate to the comments so, SO much. Currently seeking a diagnosis, and this video seems to be another one of over 1000 things that just resonate with me to an impressive degree, and that I've never heard of until I started researching about autism.

[@wingofafly]

Your explanation of CBT is more helpful than the actual CBT I had.

[@auroraglacialis]

I kind of wish there were mental health specialists that one can go to and which can help finding out what kind of therapy would be helpful for the individual. Sequentially taking a dozend trial sessions with different therapists with waiting times of weeks or months to get in is exhausting and not really working for people who are not great at judging human connections

[@Shibby27ify]

I have this problem, even being a therapist myself. Even approaches I trust may have a bad/mediocre therapist. It's like how online dating is hell for us.

[@jofox1186]

😊 Thanks for this video. What you say about CBT really makes a lot of sense to me. It always felt like it was pushing me even further into a bad direction and now I understand why. Great video - I really appreciate what you do.

[@PlanetZhooZhoo]

A consultant referred me for CBT as a way of dealing with joint pain. When the therapy organisation called me, I argued against it saying I was already mindful enough thanks and not emotionally attached to body pain. They agreed I didn't need therapy!

[@PBJT292]

Wow….. CBT had me going totally off the rails. This puts the whole experience in perspective for me. Thank you!

[@theoldaccountthatiusedtous6767]

Yes! I had a really good therapist for five years (until recently) and she helped me do the opposite of CBT. I'd been absorbing all the conventional wisdom for a few years, while still marinating in the shame of toxic positivity, so I was out of balance the other way! It's great to see other people with similar experiences to mine! I found parts work (like IFS) really helped me.

[@Shibby27ify]

In my journey of working with many autistic clients to trouble shoot what really works and my own journey finding myself as very much autistic, IFS and other parts work adjacent therapies really work for Autism for some reason. It was an IFS therapist in 2012 when I first had successful therapy experiences.

[@dianaenriquez9311]

Excellent advice! Huge thank you. My 10 year old boy was greatly benefited by CBT when fell into depression, but his Daddy has been masking and supressing his emotions all of his life. So It’s great to know we should explore further when he’s ready to look for help. God bless you!.. 🙏🏼👌🏼❤️

[@theasianwitch]

This was a great way to explain it...we need to actively participate in our lives, not overthink our problems as our sick society would like us to do. I am in massage therapy school, and will be exploring somatic therapy training soon...I think we need to be more in touch with our own bodies. I have found meditation to be enormously helpful, as well as inner child work. Hope everyone finds a good therapy/therapist!

[@JessieThorne886]

Absolutely fantastic, but also very necessary, video ❤. I'm ND and also a clinical psychologist. This message needs to get out there more; I've talked to so many patients on the spectrum whose anxiety got worse from having psychotherapy such as CBT, that were all developed for and tested on typical people, etc. It's a failing on a therapist's part to not properly evaluate the causes of the patient's symptoms, as well as having a lack of knowledge about neurodiversity. Also, when CBT claims to be evidence-based, this has several serious caveats: 1) it's been around the longest, since we began measuring treatment effects, thus it has accumulated more studies of its effect, 2) studies never check for harmful effects, assuming therapy can only be a boon; data from people dropping out of therapy are simply excluded from the results,, 3) Studies exclude any complex clients, since this could confound the data, i.e. they only include people with, say, only one clear-cut diagnosis (e.g. social phobia) and nothing else, which is highly unnatural and not representative of the general population, meaning results won't generalize to real world clients, 4) Controlled studies require the therapy to be highly manualized to control for differences between each course of therapy, but arguably this is not recommended, as experienced therapists will adapt the therapy to fit each client as a crucial part of the therapy. Also, several other newer forms of therapy (e.g. MBT, CFT, ISTDP, IPT, MCT) have similarly large treatment effects to CBT. Again, all these studies have been conducted with people who were neurotypical (or, if they were on the spectrum, hadn't been recognized as such). Good results mean that about 60% experienced improvement, leaving another 40% who didn't improve (or got worse), for reasons not examined in the studies.

[@tiana5395]

I appreciate this video. I've gone through CBT before I realized I was autistic. It did not give me the set of tools in order to deal with burnout, masking, or physical disability (which I suffered a few years later). I have found that acceptance has helped (pretty much ACT). Allowing the looking up with reality by not denying it.

[@kerrigreig5459]

Watched it now, and wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I use EFT Tapping and trained as an EFT Practitioner. It's fantastic for interrupting previous programming from habitual thinking and behaviours and helping to create new, healthier neural pathways. I still have to work on feeling and identifying my feelings, EFT definitely helps though. Thank you!!

[@joycebrewer4150]

I was introduced to EFT some time ago by the therapist I was seeing at the time. Thanks for the reminder, I may find a refresher course helpful now.

[@secretlybees]

I really lucked out with a therapist that got really into IFS, I think. CBT never seemed to work quite right. Sometimes it was comforting and helpful, but sometimes it felt like gaslighting myself? IFS has been really awesome, though. I've made SO much progress with it!

[@robinvanderwal2797]

It’s interesting to hear this. I do really agree with you, however to me the exercise was most of the time: 1 what do I feel; 2 what do I think; 3 what do I do; 4 what would be healthier to think to make me feel better; 5 what would be healthier to do that would make me feel better. It ended up working for me since there was so much focus on what do I feel and getting in touch with that. I’m not saying it should work for others, I’m saying it worked for me

[@carolynr570]

I feel so validated. I’ve been through many therapists and felt like I was the problem when everything they said didn’t work. They’d just get passive aggressive and act like I wasn’t trying and invalidate me when I tried to talk to them about an autism diagnosis. I’m coping better now that I stopped going to therapy and know more about autism. Not that you shouldn’t but if they can’t even recognize how to approach treatment then it’ll just do more harm than good.

[@skylinefever]

I swear, the therapy business always thinks they have a 100% perfect product and fools who don't use it right. It couldn't possibly be because flawed products exist.

[@naturally_rob]

HOLY CRAP!!!! You said something like "I feel emotionally flat". I've told time and time again that I'm depressed despite me asserting I just feel flat. When I say that, it's common for me to hear the response "so you're numb?" But I'm not numb!

[@dannytbm]

I think CBT is probably great for a lot of people but it isn't for me. When I went through CBT the therapist placed great emphasis on seeing things positively but I don't feel a need to label every event in my life as positive or negative. There is often positive and negative together in everything that happens and this labelling feels like a filter between me and reality when I want to reduce barriers between me and reality and see the world as accurately as possible. For example if I get a flat tyre on my car, am I going to expend mental energy thinking about how positive it is that at least it isn't raining or am I going to get on with changing the tyre? Perhaps if the issue was that I was in a negative thought spiral that might help but otherwise it's a needless distraction in my opinion. I am always reminded in these circumstances of the story "The old man lost his horse", also known as the Taoist farmer. A short story (just a few paragrahps) that I would recommend as essential reading to everyone.

[@bryonyvaughn2427]

Yes! Thank you so much for saying this. Getting in contact with my emotions is far more critical to my mental wellbeing and balance.

[@isobelwhitehouse4459]

Honestly I have had therapy (mainly cbt) since I was 10 and it just gaslit me into thinking I wasn't being rational and that my meltdowns had to have a negative thought spiral around them...

[@_hunnybe]

I had experiences with CBT early in my therapy journey as a teen and young adult, before I knew I was on the spectrum. It encouraged me to more highly mask, invalidate myself, and therefore mistrust myself. The things that have helped and are helping me are Nonviolent Communication coaching, which focused on identifying observations, feelings and needs and making requests around them (especially for alexithymia); embodiment practices for helping myself to really feel what's going on and even to be with my chronic pain; EMDR for trauma reprocessing.

[@lizzygreenhood9631]

I benefitted from CBT for anxiety and trauma, but thankfully it's not the only tool in the kit even for that. It's not benefitting me now that I'm struggling with unmasking and internalized ableism because thankfully there are better tools. That being said, I'm grateful for all my tools

[@2cleverbyhalf]

I think if the anxiety is trauma based it would be beneficial even if you've got autism. But if your anxiety is due to sensory issues I don't think it is helpful. I have a lifelong phobia of driving. I thought I had PTSD. I kept trying to get over being afraid, and now that I suspect I have autism I am realizing there was never getting over this "fear". I can't dissociate when I get overloaded if I am driving, and whenever I drive I get completely overwhelmed, sensory overload. No amount of CBT is going to help that. All these years I thought I was broken somehow. Now I know I am wired differently

[@breannapiscitelli3941]

Holy cheese and rice. You’ve been giving me every answer I’ve ever needed in my life, but this one literally just made me have a massive self realization. I’ve always known that I was different, but I’ve been in severe denial about it my entire life. I’ve been pretty miserable and was basically program that life to look at life positively, but the issue is is I am a very cynical person. I hate being positive when I’m not positive. Everybody thinks of me as this happy person but in reality I am absolutely miserable because I cannot be myself around anybody. Recently, I have been suffering from a lot of health problems and fatigue and just severe anxiety for years. I decided to try to get myself help, but I knew that going through CBT was not going to help me. My entire life I basically have been through therapy and it’s never worked because They asked me to do some thing that I can’t and then I either tell them I can’t and they think that I’m thinking or I’m not trying hard enough so eventually I just tell them yeah it worked and then I just quit going to therapy. This has been a never ending cycle for like 20 years at this point. Your video legit made me realize what the problem is. I have this problem because growing up if I acted like this, my parents would tell me that I would get picked on when I did act like myself in school. I got severely bullied to the point where I did not want to go to school at all anymore. I would beg my mom to homeschool me and she would always say I was overreacting. I had some telltale signs in childhood and I don’t think they were handled correctly, but I’m almost positive. This is why I have felt so lost for the past 20 something years. It was so severe. I didn’t even realize that I would not let myself stem, and I think that’s why I started developing a lot of health issues because my anxiety and just overall emotional state was just very severe . I am desperately trying to find myself. I finally admitted to my family doctor that I think this is why the cycle of problems I started and honestly he agrees which was validating, but I’m going to just get the diagnosis and see what happens from there. I think what has held me back is a lot of my anxiety, because before I would ask other doctors about it, and they would immediately shut me down, which would add to my anxiety and confusion. My biggest issue is when I had cognitive behavioral therapy. They would tell me to change my thought process, which was some thing I didn’t think and I definitely don’t think I have the ability to do now. Or at least the way that I was looking at it, but I wasn’t sure what I was doing wrong. The way that you put it is exactly what I was doing wrong. I was masking the fear, and still putting myself through these situations, and wondering why I was not able to get over them, and everybody else was. I’m starting to realize that a lot of the things that I do in a lot of the ways that I think actually are not wrong at all and I need to trust myself more. That’s some thing I’ve also noticed is I’m always good when I trust my instincts which I have not been doing for a long time. Thank you for this video. I’ve watched it three times now and it literally just makes so much sense. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with looking at things logically and I need to learn that if somebody says something to me about it that they are the ones that are wrong because that way works for them and my way works for me.

[@blzfrost]

Thank you for all you do, Paul. Only now am I finally starting to see and understand who and what I am, and you have been foundational in this journey. I haven't the words to express my gratitude. Thank you!

[@ThroughTheLensOfAutism]

I am lucky that the therapist I have now has kept me for over a decade. Most therapists kick me out of their clinics after one year or less.