Is Commander Getting Too Fast? | Commander Clash Podcast #30

[@Dubi264]

A downside from the increased speed ive seen is I definitely can't play as many pet or high mana cards as I used to. Also, I have a deck I really want to win via combat but always ends up winning via combo instead because of board wipes and the efficiency of the combos.

[@aishiw7434]

Good points

[@MTGSavage]

I run pet cards anyways, **** it. I'm not changing my play style just to win. I refuse.

[@Hakokoro]

Commander desperatly needs a brand new ban list AND to change the life points to 30.

[@MTGSavage]

@@Hakokoro Lmao what? Is this post satire?

[@SeraphSilverstar]

@@Hakokoro disagree to the second point, but I agree that the ban list is incomplete in regards to the RC stance on “why they ban”

[@richarddilkes328]

There's a d&d saying that I think applies here: "If players are allowed to do it they will optimize the fun out of the game" I think this is the logical place the player base will take any format that we ever create.

[@carloserausquinhoyos3298]

I always thought of edh as the format where I finally got to play my janky cards, but with WotC designing cards specifically for this format it has just become like the other formats

[@TheEvolver311]

I don't think that is as much a function of WotC printing Commander specific cards rather than the overall shift towards efficient midrange creature decks in the games overall design since Lorywn. Now nearly every years Standard design is focused around mid game creature combat and back in the day you just didn't have a plurality of efficient creatures to fill out your curve leaving big generally unplayable in constructed creatures being the best cost-effective options.

[@underscore_5450]

The original appeal of commander for me was the fact that Magic wasn't designed for commander. The game just wasn't made for 100 card singleton with unlimited access to a legendary creature. That's what made it fun and janky and interesting. And that unique aspect of it has faded as WoTC has printed more "made for commander" cards. Too many legendary creatures nowadays are glorified enchantments that barely qualify as a creature. The focus is now on abilities and combos, and less on combat.

[@carloserausquinhoyos3298]

@@underscore_5450 good point; it feels like there's also too many cards that say "each opponent" when they should say "target opponent"

[@ivolopez-felix5270]

Its definitely a little of wotc printing power cards for this format, and just the time we as players have learned about what is a better option over another card. Plus the abundance of legendary creatures now.

[@Phnxkon]

Yeah rule 0 everything out that references commander command zone etc

[@Death_by_Tech]

focusing on playgroups, there’s only so many games you will lose to a particular strategy before someone plays hate cards against you. It helps that each person has a “personality”, one of us likes graveyard decks, one likes u/r/w storm decks, etc. Storm player winning too consistently? play rule of law effects. Etc. And i think that’s simply how commander is meant to be played, against the same people over and over

[@CheeseWedge056]

I 100% agree with this, when you start learning each others decks and playing against the best one at the table, that's when the social rule 0 aspect is at its best.

[@el_maoo]

that's also how magic in general should be. tweaking your deck to work in it's enviornment. it's part of the deckbuilding process and that's where the fun is. it's why people have 30 decks and why people love cube

[@chad3166]

@@el_maoo it's also how it used to be with all the Color hosers that used to be printed

[@evanbutterwick1633]

My play group has risen in power levels to something I would have never imagined a few years ago. I’ve personally spent an exorbitant amount of money on cards and expansions ever since Dominaria and my passions for big splashy and finicky artifact decks is still there but I just created a combo Mizzix deck just to have an answer to the power creep. and I won’t play certain decks I own because of how brutally efficient they are just from being able to afford to optimize them somewhat.

[@BoomBoom54543]

I feel like what Richard and Tomer were saying about budget made alot of sense. How come the only card they've printed to death that has become a staple is arcane signet? They saw they made a powerful card and fixed it by printing it in oblivion so its only a dollar. Why can't they do that with every staple? (Cause money's of course, but I like the premise)

[@vichuang1480]

Solution: Penny Dreadful EDH gg ez

[@gamermancrygamer9461]

Sounds like y'alls gotta proxy.

[@ZeroKOR1]

@@gamermancrygamer9461 this right here. I have no budget when I make a deck, but in the same stance I don't care if you proxy if you can not afford the real cards. I would just hope you sit down with a fake, and not a piece of paper you wrote on is all.

[@underscore_5450]

That's why I proxy everything. I'm not paying $40+ for a single piece of cardboard.

[@ajsdfjaoine]

I feel like it's all about matching the power level of the table. If 4 good commanders come together with well built consistent decks they would be able to interact with each other really well. The issue comes to when there are 3 decent commanders with okay built decks which can interact, but not often, face against someone who has a consistent deck with high acceleration. I enjoy having faster games compared to years ago, but I also agree that sometimes I feel as if I can't play some decks because other people are running higher powered decks. It is annoying to have to ask each time whether or not someone is running fast mana other high acceleration cards, but those cards, I feel, are also important in the format when it comes to people who run those cards with a play group who also run the same cards. Those cards make the game fun for a matching table, just not in other tables who cannot come close to it.

[@DaKareerKilla]

Crim's opinion is up there with a guy at my local who said "I hate the Monarch, it's the worst mechanic in Commander", and was surprised when he was informed that pretty much everyone else who plays the game is at worst neutral towards it. People who don't want to draw cards confuse me lol

[@BigDiff7]

I feel I need cards that do things between turns 1 and 2. Land, go, land go makes me feel so far behind when everyone else is playing a higher concentration of rocks, mana dorks, or having the seemingly-more-common explosive start.

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

I finished making and Edgar vampire deck and most of the vamps are 1 mana, removal at 1,2,or3 mana and only about 6 cards of mana higher than or at 6 mana, mostly being boardwipes. Granted, Edgar is expensive but you could definitely make a tribal deck with a similar theme of low cost creatures that gain value through the commander

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

Here's the list if it matters: 1x Edgar Markov $98.00 1x Exquisite Blood $35.38 1x Dark Depths $26.53 1x Valki, God of Lies // Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor $11.99 1x Reanimate $10.82 1x Wrath of God $6.00 1x Bontu's Monument $5.70 1x Monologue Tax $4.67 1x Knight of the Ebon Legion $4.63 1x Pyroblast $4.48 1x Drana, the Last Bloodchief $4.09 1x Bastion of Remembrance $3.49 1x Nighthawk Scavenger $2.82 1x Sanguine Bond $2.34 1x Sol Ring $2.28 1x Vampire of the Dire Moon $2.25 1x Extus, Oriq Overlord // Awaken the Blood Avatar $2.23 1x Arcane Signet $1.87 1x Mayhem Devil $1.79 1x Everflowing Chalice $1.71 1x Cordial Vampire $1.40 1x Cruel Celebrant $1.23 1x Rakdos Signet $1.19 1x Indulging Patrician $1.13 1x Rally the Ranks $1.06 1x Sangromancer $0.99 1x Gifted Aetherborn $0.95 1x Despark $0.82 1x Stromkirk Noble $0.75 1x Mask of Griselbrand $0.68 1x Cut // Ribbons $0.65 1x Falkenrath Pit Fighter $0.61 1x Fracture $0.58 1x Path of Ancestry $0.55 1x Altar's Reap $0.50 1x Call of the Death-Dweller $0.50 1x Mythos of Snapdax $0.50 1x Sulfurous Mire $0.50 1x Command Tower $0.49 1x Demonic Embrace $0.49 1x Marshland Bloodcaster $0.49 1x Read the Bones $0.49 1x Swamp $0.49 1x Vampire Hexmage $0.49 1x Crystal Ball $0.46 1x Vampire Nighthawk $0.45 1x Snowfield Sinkhole $0.44 1x Essence Pulse $0.43 1x Marauding Blight-Priest $0.40 1x Crib Swap $0.39 1x Doublecast $0.39 1x Orzhov Basilica $0.36 1x Alpine Meadow $0.35 1x Bloodtracker $0.35 1x Falkenrath Gorger $0.35 1x Minions' Murmurs $0.35 1x Terramorphic Expanse $0.35 1x Thriving Bluff $0.35 1x Village Rites $0.35 1x Viscera Seer $0.33 1x Intangible Virtue $0.32 1x Akoum Refuge $0.30 1x Call to the Feast $0.30 1x Plains $0.30 1x Rakdos Carnarium $0.30 1x Dire Tactics $0.27 1x Voldaren Epicure $0.27 1x Disenchant $0.26 1x Thriving Moor $0.26 1x Boros Garrison $0.25 1x Duskborne Skymarcher $0.25 1x Evolving Wilds $0.25 3x Mountain $0.25 1x Necrotic Fumes $0.25 1x Quag Vampires $0.25 1x Scoured Barrens $0.25 2x Swamp $0.25 1x Unholy Officiant $0.25 1x Eaten Alive $0.24 1x Foreboding Fruit $0.24 1x Mountain $0.24 1x Plains $0.22 1x Queen's Commission $0.22 6x Swamp $0.22 1x Mountain $0.21 1x Wind-Scarred Crag $0.21 4x Plains $0.20 1x Plains $0.19 1x Voldaren Stinger $0.18

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

efficient board wipes

[@TransformersBoss]

Me: “Ok guys, let’s talk rule 0.” [Opponent plays Gemstone Caverns, Leyline of Sanctity, and Brainstorm, the rest of us have casual decks] Opponent: “oh, sorry, I thought you said TURN 0!”

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

except power level is completely irrelevant to casual. you can play cedh casually.

[@Kamakasi11]

I agree with crim completely in this video. I feel like the best thing about commander is all the interactions going on between multiple players. Stax pieces tilt people but they add another level of complexity to the games which makes them more interesting. If your deck folds to graveyard hate you should pack interaction that helps you protect your grave. If your deck is all about activating artifacts bring removal for null rod efects

[@BoomBoom54543]

There should be an old school commander week on commanders clash. Don't play any cards printed 2017 or after and see if 2016 and below holds up!

[@zacharymccutcheon8607]

Listening to this reminds me of the crew's discussions about spot removal. The "non-games" that happen typically happen because one player "pops off" gets down a big threat that can't be answered quickly enough, and that ends the game. This whole conversation people have been talking about ramping harder and playing more efficient threats, but during the spot removal discussion, the crew was very down on spot removal. What I've found is the more spot removal I play, the more I'm able to prevent "non-games." At this point, I've committed 10-13 cards slots to "interaction." that's counters, wipes, and spot removal. because of that, I'm usually able to "answer" the first big threat that comes down, and allow the game to reach turns 7-9. My playgroup has adopted a similar amount of removal, so it's no longer a matter of "the first one to pop off wins." Now it's "the first one to pop off gets their threat killed." The problems the crew is talking about is indicitive of a group where everyone is building a solitaire deck. Make it faster, make it more consistent, make my combo better. But if everyone is doing that, then whoever gets to the combo first wins, and nobody else gets to "do their thing." If you dedicate a decent portion of your deck to messing with your opponents, then you'll be better able to prevent them from popping off, instead of hoping to draw the single piece of spot removal you put in your deck. If you build your deck with the expectation that your opponents have the ability to pop off, and you have to stop them, then that will allow you to avoid "non-games."

[@VexylObby]

Even then, the game is so fast, that my interaction is either already spent or I don’t have mana left for more interaction. Some cards just make the game way too swingy (Dockside/Sol Ring/High Card Advantage Cards). I think interaction is very necessary and maximizes enjoyment. But the other cards that overcome interaction too efficiently is the issue.

[@Death_by_Tech]

this is so true. i put down a toxrill the other day it literally dies to anything, it took 4 goes around the table for someone to deal with it because no one was packing removal!

[@spudster8887]

@@VexylObby I would honestly argue if you are completely tapping out and another player has just gone off as a result, you need to read the board better. If you are in a combo meta, its really never safe to completely tap out, you have to keep mana up for interaction.

[@rosavanopheusden5211]

IMO this comment has it completely backwards - much of the hyper-efficient interaction and value pieces that cause snowballing invalidate removal, and the kind of removal that decks are required to run and hold up at all times just to keep pace push more fair and interactive cards out of deck slots. The "just run more removal" argument has always been laughable, and indicative of the kind of meta you should only ever cultivate with people that you know well. This is also clearly not an issue of the combo rush overtaking deckbuilding considerations, as Commander Clash is overwhelmingly not a combo format, nor is it built for efficiency.

[@timbombadil4046]

One problem with saying *run more removal* is the player that runs the least (Richard) in this pod wins the most. Bringing answers to police others is a tragedy of the commons. You go down a card, the runaway player is stopped, and the other two are the real winners.

[@PalPlays]

"and together we are, the GINYU FORCE!" Seth should be Guldo.

[@VatisInsania]

really feels like the question is, "will my opponents enjoy playing against this deck?"

[@VexylObby]

Still a good question for people to ask!

[@agentrstudios5947]

This is honestly the one metric we need to fix most of our problems.

[@ACertainGuy0]

@@agentrstudios5947 Not really. I enjoy heavy control gameplay like stax and hatebears, but i cant play my favorite deck styles because everyone else would just try to murder me on sight every game and loathe playing with me. So who do i screw over? myself or everyone else?

[@agentrstudios5947]

@@ACertainGuy0 PREACH! Lol I’m my local scene I am know as a hard control player. I have played control in every color combination I have played😂 honestly I used to not be able to play my favorite decks and cards because people don’t like getting counterbalance locked in my Zur deck😅 I get it. That’s why I build my deck in a way to be soft in certain ways (in context of the people I usually play with). It has become a running joke “idk what the correct play is but I’ll just mess up [Agent R].” Embrace the archenemy. However, after they kill me and lose or waste interaction spite playing me and find they now don’t have that card to help them later I use that to say “I am here to help you, till I’m not.” Keep me around so I can help police the board for you and keep everyone in check. You can keep me in check if you want that is fair. I have had to politic WAY more when I’m playing some less than desirable strategies haha. TLDR, I found ways to play “stax” and control in a way that feels fun for me but not unbeatable for my opponents. I know this isn’t helpful for specifically answering your question but I do think we can “screw” over everyone equally. I play some funny “bad” cards in my deck like Penance/Counterbalance, and they run a pyroblast in their deck😅 if you wanna be the villain don’t be surprised when the Hero AND townspeople storm your castle. I like playing control decks where they have outs/chances to beat me and I have to work extra hard to find answers, but I DO have answers. That’s the balance for me personally. ✌🏻🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DefinitelyNotReal627]

Problem is when nobody else makes that concession you just end up having a miserable time.

[@jake7915]

My friend group and I just took our soul ring out from our decks. We're hoping it leads to less of a snow bally game. Basically, the reason for this podcast

[@jeffreycarey1641]

My take on the format speeding up, is that it is far more due to the spell theory being figured out, and even more-so, the popularity of commander growing so exponentially. I won't deny that WoTC hasn't printed specific cards for commander that are broken/mistakes (i.e. dockside), but in all these discussions about the format changing and becoming more powerful, it seems like half the cards mentioned in these podcast discussions are older cards (i.e. gaias cradle, mana vault and crypt, sol ring). Powerful cards have always existed and I think that the real change in the format has come from more eyes on the format; this leads to more people playing, coming up with newer ideas, more efficient ideas, growths of populations of all types of players, and you'll generally see a major change in anything that has that kind of massive popularity increase.

[@bedwarssweat6205]

I think you're equating too much of it to existing cards. There are so many pushed new cards that just make the game faster and what you can do with the powerful cards printed back then has now gotten a lot stronger. As far as the whole spell theory thing is concerned, people used to play edh as a casual alternative to competitive formats but now that everyone plays commander, that's where they're playing competitively under the pretense of cedh or not

[@spudster8887]

I honestly think a big part of it is, people have no realised playing 2 or 3 smaller spells each turn is WAY more fun than just dropping 1 haymaker each turn. Being able to string multiple spells together is the most fun thing about the format imo

[@oafkad]

@@bedwarssweat6205 Yeah those old powerful cards paid out casting reasonable spells. Now those old powerful cards cast batshit insane spells.

[@bedwarssweat6205]

@@oafkad Couldn't agree more

[@AnExercisInThought]

In 2015, while going through college, I played commander with a group of people that had $200-$300 budget decks and I had to smack together a deck for $25 and what I had in my binder. I was very limited on what was viable enough in budget to give me a chance at winning. I had a choice between kingmaker azorius/esper control or mardu voltron, each with major downsides of either closing the game or maintaining momentum. Esper control finishers were expensive and mardu card advantage was expensive, not to mention mana rocks which I couldn't afford. I required a certain amount of removal that could get around Indestructible due to a Mayael Gods build being rampant in the pod, so I was forced into Mardu at the end of the day. Budget isn't a drawback anymore, card advantage is available in every color, and more removal doing exile has made older problematic cards like Gods or Blight-steel easier to answer. I think the commander format is in a growing and evolving stage, which leads to growing pains. Ultimately, it will be better in the end. We just need some patience as people catch up in the midterm.

[@VexylObby]

I think the game itself is still being designed with mistakes, even with tempo disparities. The game itself is being designed to be way too efficient.

[@Spaced92]

Everyones examples seem so niche and specific to their own experiences, whether in the podcast or in the comments. I think Tomer is the only one that basically lives Commander, budget or not, so I put a lot of stock in his opinion on this. Crim and Richard seem to take an almost philosophical take on it.

[@agentrstudios5947]

My meta is awesome for trying new stuff and we play whatever. We proxy stuff to try before we purchase it. Commander isn’t getting “fast,” cards are getting better😂 and people have access to more knowledge than before. TLDR play what you want and talk with the play group. Can’t play commander by yourself lol

[@charliewright2667]

@@agentrstudios5947 bruh commander is getting faster BECAUSE cards are getting better.... it's called power creep and it's objectively bad for eternal formats.

[@agentrstudios5947]

@@charliewright2667 I wouldn’t say it’s objectively bad for eternal formats. Power creep in a format where you and your playgroup decide/cultivate your meta and play experience is literally our own faults. If the games are getting faster and less enjoyable then it is literally our fault for playing that way. We don’t have to play all the most powerful and efficient cards😂 I know that doesn’t sound great but I love playing Seasons past, but why would I play that over regrowth? It is basically the same thing but 2 mana. I just like it and that’s fine. I’m just saying I don’t like the implication that “Faster equals worse.” Just like Seth saying Pauper commander is painful because of how difficult it is to end the game, I like seeing games with more powerful stuff happening more often. But hey, play what ever you want it is ACTUALLY up to you. You can’t police what others are going to play. You are taking the chance your reanimated deck is going to run into a random player with rest in piece in their opening hand and some player randomly playing blood moon in their zozu the punisher land hate deck. It happens. Concede if you want and move on. You have the agency to play with another pod in your LGS. I think the format is getting BETTER and incidentally faster given everyone’s new found acceptance to lower their curves. I think this is because of the boom in cedh on YT but its also because of the cards getting better. 🤷🏻‍♂️But it is okay, people will play what they want at the end of the day. Had a friend not play a game of commander in 2 years and had Flash Hulk in his Chulane deck😂 it was HILARIOUS when he cast it and didn’t know that flash was banned. We all need to just chill out, commander is fun, so have fun✌🏻

[@mightyone3737]

I think present day EDH is evolving into a format where it's dangerous to try to 'pop off' if you're not actually capable of dealing with interaction, any 'serious' play group will be running quite a bit of interaction to deal with a player that starts to get ahead. I think the issue might be incompetent players tend to be bad at using/building in interaction, and instead just try to build a 'fast enough' deck, which is usually not a good strategy if you're not actually that good at the game yet, and the best player will just win a ton of games because their deck is faster/more consistent. On Goldfish, most games have more than one person who is arguably 'in the lead', even if that advantage proves ephemeral, and I think this is a function of running enough ways to disrupt people. I'm not saying people need to all run ~15 removal spells, but there are some really good interaction options beyond just counterspells and removal, and most colours have some stuff they can do to shove a stick in their opponent's wheel, the issue is usually the decks aren't trying super-hard to close games out. It's for sure an issue that card quality has been improving, with not only average cards being better, but also the 'pushed' cards are more pushed, making decks have much higher ceilings, and this will make games shorter consistently, in part because Wizards prints such good ways to protect your synergy/combo. Deflecting Swat and Fierce Guardianship are absurdly good Commander cards for example, with nothing previously anywhere near as pushed as them, they just require your Commander to be out, but even if you hardcast those they're not anywhere near as clunky as FoW. I think the view that the Eternal formats are 'solved' is probably not quite right, but it's very hard to sneak anything remotely new into competitive play, but Commander has a bajillion decks that can compete at any given power level, that's the nature of the format, nigh-infinite potential for self-expression but you have to have a goal power level, and try to play the deck vs decks that are fair games for it. I routinely run into combos that are more or less never used on EDHREC, but I usually try to build something first and then optimize what I've built, so I will end up using combos that aren't commonly seen (or have literally zero decks running them sometimes on EDHREC). These aren't usually cEDH decks I suppose, so they aren't 'the best thing you can be doing', but in some cases they are decent. Who knows? People run what speaks to them I guess. I think Standard is more absurd at this point than Commander, in part because Commander can self-police and Standard relies 100% on banning stuff (eventually, after people have been screaming for awhile usually) to police. Commander doesn't have to be a competitive game, it can be a cooperative gaming experience where people each are still trying to win, but without trying to build stronger decks to do it, they all just agree to a range of what is 'normal' for their group, and deviations are dealt with (either allowed periodically or just not welcome). Standard being so pushed eventually required Modern Horizons to make Modern strong enough to make Standard look 'normal' again, and Legacy was largely thrown under the bus since it couldn't really be made any faster without making it Vintage. Commander keeps getting cards printed for it that are simply too powerful for Casual play, and while it's frustrating, I mostly have to trust that other people will use their good sense and not run Grim Hireling or Opposition Agent (or Dockside haha) in a Casual deck, just like they wouldn't run Tymna/Thrasios. I don't think Smothering Tithe is a broken card, it's a *good* card, and it's in White. Jeweled Lotus is in the same camp as Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault (and the legal Moxen), the sheer density of these extremely pushed mana rocks is fine in cEDH, but it's terrible in lower power formats. Sol Ring jumps out as a 'just don't! card in Casual, and I don't think Smothering Tithe does. Gilded Lotus is a reasonable card in a deck that cares about ramping from ~5 to +8 mana, most people actively avoid building decks that do that, so Gilded Lotus isn't run as much. It's probably fine in an Eldrazi deck I guess? I think people are playing more expensive cards on average, that's a very real issue and I think the pandemic played a big role in this. Perhaps people made a hobby out of optimizing their decks, the skyrocketing of many staples prices kinda backs this theory up. I suspect the average player is also sharper at some aspects of the game (they are probably better with the rules), but will likely be quite rusty from the pandemic limiting play opportunity, especially paper play. Just a crazy thought, but it might be a thing to look at to have an 'official' EDH list of cards that aren't banned, but that you might not want to run in a blind meta, based on 3 tiers of power, cEDH (has no list, just bans), High Power (mentions a few cEDH cards), and Casual (where you mention fast mana as stuff to hesitate about running). I think if the lists weren't any longer than the banlist it'd probably help a bit. I mean, you could also just ban all the borked fast mana and be fine for Casual? I think if I wanted to play a Casual game, I'd probably enjoy older metas vs the present one, but for decks designed to be High Power or cEDH, the present card pool is much more interesting. Casual is a place where I still like running old cards, I've even got some outright old jank in use, you could do that more safely in 2015 than now I'd say, running Tobias Andrion is a bit like taking on 3 other guys in light tanks while you've got a butter knife sometimes, that adds the spice though, and helps the deck avoid attention early, when it can be very durdly.

[@ParfaxGaming]

Tomer's take on pickup groups is spot on. I started playing on spell table and people are so spikey even at "mid" level decks. You have to slog through so many games to find a good game

[@shayneweyker]

That's the problem solved by power level matchmaking and enforcement communities like the PlayEDH discord.

[@ms.sysbit5511]

@@shayneweyker the issue here is 3/4 don’t actually read the scale and just go ‘mid’ so pods are imbalanced. Coming from someone who administrated a 1000 member EDH Discord. If folks read and adhere, they work wonderfully. That said most cEDH/High players do not power the deck down meaningfully leaving in 75% of the deck the same so they stomp.

[@joshholmes1372]

@@ms.sysbit5511 right, they cut the two piece combo pieces and keep the Staples/mana base and it's still like a 7-8 lol.

[@ms.sysbit5511]

@@joshholmes1372 nothing like the turn 3 Gishath, Sun’s Avatar in the casual pod.

[@paulhorton8193]

Hey. An idea for a commander clash season. Each episode make decks from the card pool of a specific year. Start at 2011 for episode 1, and make decks with cards available only in 2011 or earlier. Episode 2 would be 2012, where you'd make decks with cards only available 2012 or earlier. So on and so forth. This might make it to see if the newer cards are really making that much of a difference.

[@cinderheart2720]

Dockside scales to the power of the table. If you're at a casual table and you cast it turn 2, you're getting 1 or 2 treasures. The problem with it, is that it also scales with the length of the game. 2 drops being super powerful and relevant late game are definitely a bit of an issue. Yes in commander you want to have that feeling where your early game cards are still useful late game, but they shouldn't be outclassing your 6+ mana value cards.

[@VexylObby]

I think cards that net more mana than they cost instantly, and in early stage of the game are generally bad for this game's design.

[@mfitkin]

The powercreep does lead to more games with a single person popping off, but some of those archenemy game states have created some really fun games for me. Obviously this is harder to do in pickup games, but I think playgroups needs to get better/faster at knocking down an archenemy. I don’t feel like it’s a negative experience whether I’m the one popping off or the one trying to take them down, all part of the game.

[@Muongoing.97c]

I agree. I find myself often playing games where someone pops off, then gets shut down by other people at the table, leading to someone else popping off and eventually we all get to do our thing and have fun. I think that’s exactly what commander should be. The key though is to make the threats interactable. If someone pops off and there is just no way to stop them then that’s no fun.

[@guyinthecorner0]

The issue with my group when things get all archenemy is that whoever is able to take put that archemnemy usually did so cuz they managed to build up some just as crazy board state, so it's Archenemy 2 Electric Boogaloo

[@natemcdivitt6087]

I play taigam extra turns superfriends teferi tribal so I am usually the arch enemy and I'll admit my stuff isn't super interactable, I don't even run countermagic. I think, even tho I love them, extra turns or extra combats shouldn't be so easy to break.

[@spudster8887]

@@Muongoing.97c The problem is, atleast in my opinion, people are horrendous at threat assessment. They see one person pop off, and instead of just dealing with the thing they did that is problematic, they get tunnel vision and only focus on that player, even when they have long since ceased to be a threat. This is also why in alot of cases the whole 'kill on sight' thing is idiotic, because you are ignoring what might actually be the threat at that moment in time.

[@Muongoing.97c]

@@spudster8887 That might be true. I'll admit to mostly playing in long running pods with people who I am at least vaguely familiar with. On the other hand, if someone popped off because their commander is part of their combo and they could always just recast their commander like one of my friends can with his Zada deck, or even worse if someone plays something like Kess where they can just flashback all the stuff you just had to deal with, player removal is necessary.

[@nheimi99]

In my playground, we have the opposite problem. Commander seems to be getting more reactive and grindy. Removal/control options are getting easier to cast sooner and more efficiently than ever. I can't remember the last sub 60 minute game I played, but I'd take 3 games that only last an hour each rather than one 3 hour game...

[@Kryptnyt]

I'm always sandbagging in commander just because they always have turn 3 Toxic Deluge haha. I'm kind of cool with 2-3 hour games as long as one player isn't monopolizing the experience and everyone is participating.

[@oafkad]

Commander is trending more and more consistent imo. More fast mana, more tutors, more card draw. If I wanted a consistent play format I'd just play 60 card. The whole "idea" of singleton was to have more variance and surprises. I think over time it'll lose more and more of its identity. (I'm happy for folks like Crim that are loving the shift, to be clear)

[@timbombadil4046]

But that will always be the case. Even if not using tutors every time a new version of a similar desirable effect is printed, any interested deck can gain consistency as a result. Variance among cards isn't down even if consistency is up, due to more or more optimal of redundancy.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@timbombadil4046 "variance isn't down even though I have more copies of the same effect" .....

[@bodaciouschad]

I started playing EDH in Ixilan with specter tribal under Vela the Nightclad. I basically played dimir tempo + common/uncommon eldrazi for finishers. That can't compete with oracle consultation, artifact storm, defend the hearth combos or any other turbo combo.

[@ben_clifford]

1:10:22 This is the ultimate complaint I have about the format speeding up. When my buddies and I played the 2011 precons back in the day, usually 3-4 out of the 5 of us would get our game on. Now, if you get unlucky and don't hit your ramp, you're way behind. And when someone pops off early, 3 other players feel left out.

[@fishrunner23]

If someone pops off early in your group do they usually win, and win soon? Or do they run out of gas and second place comes in for the win? I ask because in our group experience either the person wins one or two turns later. Or we stop them and they are the first one out.

[@ianlarson9611]

@@fishrunner23 In my experience, they are in a position to win and are so far ahead that there's no realistic chance for the rest of the board to come back. It usually ends in a whole table concession because we knew the rest of the game would be an unfun slog of getting beat down, countered, or killed (having played through the scenario enough times to know)

[@ben_clifford]

@@fishrunner23 My playgroup has changed a lot over the years, and currently I only play occasionally at my LGS. Because of that, if someone pops off early, I've see all sorts of results. But my experience has been fairly consistent in one way: ramp is WAY more important that it used to be, because without it you're behind, and it's extremely rare to pop off early (or at all) without it.

[@wesleyepperson2821]

The whole speeding up thing and having non games can/does lead to arms race. I use to build my decks without sol rings bc it now they are in every deck along with mana crypt and every efficient card in my colors bc of the amount of games if we didn’t have a specific answer by turn x

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

I think the format is generally better now than it was in 2016 with the exception of a handful of cards. Dockside Extortionist, Jeweled Lotus, Fierce Guardianship, etc. Almost all of the real problem cards were printed in commander sets.

[@oneeyedstranger4072]

There's definitely power creep, which leads to faster gameplay with more decks going off quicker regardless of how tuned they might be. I think the big difference is that in some groups you're seeing the same well-known high-powered combos frequently and/or the high-powered staples that compliment them. For the purpose of pick-up games, I feel the best thing to do is self-regulate with a budget cap for the deck as a whole, and then cap individual cards at no more than 10% of the budget, like $200, with no individual card more than $20. Gives you a bunch of options, soft bans a lot of the more salty cards, and then makes you consider the staples you bring to support your deck, and gets the brewing muscles flexing for what else you pop into it.

[@lucascoutinho8167]

I haven't had much experience playing commander, especially recently, but I have played a lot of historic brawl and the main issue there is that there aren't really any cards that stop 5 color goodstuff. In commander there are plenty of significant drawbacks to any one strategy if the relevant cards see enough play. For example there's boil, blood moon, rest in piece. Not saying one should play boil but if monoblue snowcovered island edh decks became a problem run it and avoid actual islands if you still want to play blue. One of the best cards I would run EDH is tsabo's web, it hates on utility lands, draws a card on etb, cost only two, is colorless and doesn't affect low powered decks. If alot of lowered powered decks ran the card running a lot of utility lands would present a downside instead of being auto-include as long as you have enough mana-fixing. If you're running a linear powerfull obnoxius strategy or higher powered you should be prepared for hatecards or run different wincons/gameplans.

[@spogo1]

I'd love to see you guys play 2017 decklists today and see how the game feels, or maybe 1 person plays a modern commander deck and everyone else 2017 lists, and get feedback on that.

[@VRanger100]

I think games tend to feel faster now because of two reason; one being WOTC power creeping newer cards and the second reason is that players are just getting smarter. In the current age of EDH, there are more resources for players who want to play competitively and more information on deck building. In another podcast, it was mentioned that 1 drop Mana Dorks were seen as inferior due to the board wipes that were constant in older metas. In the current age, players need access to as much fast mana as possible to stick larger threats faster and the ability to survive 1-2 removals. One archetype I'd like WOTC to encourage is higher CMC tribal cards. In M19, we saw synergies for creatures/spells with high mana values and/or power like Goreclaw and Sarkhan's Unsealing. Encouraging strategies with higher mana values feels more in line with what "Timmy" magic is to them in EDH. At the end of it though, it's always dependent on the playgroup. I've seen cEDH games go past 10 turns without a stax deck present and I've seen casual games end on turn 3-4 out of a great starting hand and luck.

[@joshholmes1372]

People also netdeck top decks now and pretend like they are a god lol.

[@KellyUnekis]

@1:12:47 I can get Crim's argument about hate pieces, playing *some* hate pieces doesn't mean you're playing a stacks deck.

[@HueyPLewis]

Richard really articulates his opinions well. I love this channel.

[@nik700]

For me, in this types of topics it's important to remember that two things can be true at the same time. Yes, the format is faster but also yes, the problem is expectations.

[@VexylObby]

Nah. I still think the game itself has turned too fast for it's own design. Some cards are so powerful, that expectations are irrelevant.

[@Sinistra359]

I agree with both Tomer and Crim's points for solutions. Make powerful cards for specific archetypes and print more answers to specific strategies. I think Wizards should print more "punishment" cards like confounding conundrum, it punishes people for ramping but not in a way where they can't play at all. I also think they should keep making more cards like honored heirloom, where most of the time it's a mana rock but can be an answer if needed.

[@dirnaras2887]

Agree on both points. However I would add that the power of narrow cards has to grow reverse proportionate to the number of colors that card represents. Unfortunately wizards did not do a good job understanding that until Commander legends. Hopefully they never print a Sultai ninja that will be even more busted then Yuriko. Regarding the hate pieces, it baffles me that even after extortionist and tithe they kept printing some crazy treasure engines and other pushed mana ramp cards but nothing to control that. Harsh mentor, Immolation shaman, Flamescroll Celebrant - none of these may punish a mana generated by a non land source. If Harsh Mentor dealt 2 damage to a player for every cracked treasure that would have made quite a difference. Lavinia comes closer to deterring explosive mana starts but still not there. And who other than dedicated stax player would want to play a bear just trying to prevent some possible autoloss. A card like that does not have to be a dorky creature, must be symmetrical but could be an enchantment, or even a planeswalker that has some proactive utility for your deck too. Which is another thing they failed to realize. If the Committee is not willing to ban some clearly destabilizing cards, then better answers and hate needs to be printed.

[@Sinistra359]

@@dirnaras2887 Totally agree. They need to be answers that has some utility to advance your game plan, otherwise in some pods they'll just be a dead card in hand. I'm not a game designer but I'm hopeful wizards has something for us in the next few years.

[@chrisdomingo9143]

your opinions and how you see and play commander is satisfying to listen to … you learn different perspectives on how and when to play spells … need more games with the same commander so we can watch these decks play out differently and see how you guys build them 🤙🏽

[@tonehunter8755]

I'm with Seth. Take me back to 2016/2017 when the precons were one set a year

[@TheDuckfighter]

Maybe there is a need for more commander formats? Like 2-3, one we call Vintage edh, where all cards legal today is still legal. Then one that is a little less powerful, like ban reserved list and cards like dockside.

[@agentrstudios5947]

My local play group is about 20-25 people and we just posted out own ban list on our discord channel and almost everything was unbanned. No one plays the unbanned cards. It is very weird. We just don’t care and play what we want if it fits the deck.

[@shayneweyker]

Tomer is right about the more quickly game ending threats and more 2cc ramp shortening the number of turns until one player has to be stopped or they will win or get an extreme advantage that makes them likely to win. That smaller number of turns and the need to hold open mana to interact earlier means that players who stumble on mana development may never get to have an impact on the game by doing their deck's thing. Also the stumbling player not having the absolute lowest mana cost and effective interaction can make the need to hold open interaction even more crippling to advancing one's own plan.

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

I think that is a massive hidden downside to games going fewer turns. You have way less time to recover from stumbling a bit early. You probably have to spend most of the rest of the game in defense mode once that happens.

[@badgeronriodz6792]

Next season you should do a deck restriction of nothing from 2017 forward and see if the game is different. I agree that the fast mana has always been there but the payoffs seem to be a lot better in my experience. Honestly great video and it's the first time I've heard this discussion without anyone getting aggressive at one another.

[@Reebister]

This is a great idea! would love to see different waybacks, like 2017, 2012, 2005

[@bodaciouschad]

1:11:31 Popping off but not winning is called "value engines". Back in the days when a deck had to run dedicated card draw spells to generate card advantage and 2 card win the game combos were a pipe dream, players used synergies between cards in their deck to do cool things that would put them in a winning position in the hope that their finite synergy based value engine would be enough to overcome the resources of 3 opponents in top-deck mode to finish out the game.

[@jacksunflare]

Turn count isn't always a good representation of game time. If decks are generally stronger then it stands to reason that turns are longer as well. There's definitely a balance to strike between game time, turn count, and the "pop off" factor but I don't think the average game is so quick that we've lost anything yet. Worth keeping an eye on but not a problem yet. Even cEDH often has hour long games and the majority of those decks are built for speed.

[@FelipeMannrich]

cEDH in a nutshell is: 3 turns, 50 minutes long. lots of interaction

[@jaredwright1655]

Turn count is the only way to keep track of game time when it comes to power creep. Having strictly better replacements for edh staples makes the format more powerful, making it end faster more often.

[@Death_by_Tech]

i don’t agree with with you Richard about the “affect the board” comment. Either you’re playing the game or you’re not. Sure someone could play a “chair tribal” deck but there’s a difference between clowning around and playing the game. i know this is a hot take but the true essence of edh isn’t pick up games, the point is what Tomer said, you play with people you know over and over, like a board game. Then as a group you naturally have three things that interact to make sure games last as long as you all agree is fun: financial budgets, meta decisions, and simply being nice (e.g. if you keep stomping everyone then you power down your deck). Then you’re all playing the board game the way that’s fun for all.

[@jochenkirn9468]

Played a 16 turn game on Modo last night, for over 2 hours. I was able to combo in the end (Bant Populate with like 5 pieces), but the aggressiveness of the format made it that 5 wraths were fired off, and another 10 pieces of targeted removal. Yes, the format is aggro, and can in turn lead to a destruction slugfest.

[@Alessandro-vv2fh]

In our playgroup, we agreed to make a Pioneer Brawl deck (so the only cards legal are cards that passed through standard and aren't older than Return to Ravnica) and we had a blast since. Most of the issues are created by WotC taking a bigger interest in EDH, so we switched to a format where most of the problematic cards (fast mana, most free spells, directly-to-EDH cards)... simply aren't legal in it. It also helps that by brewing on an underexplored format with a smaller card-pool, players need to do their job themselves without resorting to EDHrec, so it feels a lot more similar to OG battlecruiser EDH.

[@remembertobreathe66]

@20:40 Richard makes a good point here. The critical turn that closed out a game is a couple of turns earlier, but when it comes it's usually game ending. As you guys mentioned, older games would devolve into a 1v1 for a few turns to actually end things. That's why the Oathbreaker and Tiny Leader formats were invented, to give the first two players out of the game something to do while the 1v1 match slogged on for eight more turns. Those formats failed to take off because the ability to close the game has sped up. Not to mention all the turns leading up to the critical turn feel more impactful. With more resources available to them--cards and websites for info--players are better deck builders these days, so they play games where they DO stuff each turn. Each players, mostly, feels like they'd have some sort of impact on the game, and felt a moment where their deck was "popping off", even if they lose. Older games have plays of "play land, pass" and too little else. You eventually lose and you ultimately feel like you wasted what turned out to be a longer game, both turn-wise and emotionally.

[@Jlizard27]

Hearing Tomer workshop Asha near the end of this episode was super cool, especially since I just listened to that episode earlier tonight!

[@bodaciouschad]

TlDr: Power levels should be measured in deck speed, total deck value and the % content of format staples. Old decks used to have 40~ lands and 8-10 format staples. That left 50 slots for pet cards and jank, which made for a diverse and engaging play pattern. Modern EDH decks contain 35~38 lands and 15-40 format staples, and those autoincludes are cheaper, more efficient and more impactful game ending threats. Thats the issue: power creep and format maturity have stifled deck diversity. There are tens of thousands of legal cards, but less than a thousand see any play, and most decks contain the same 70 cards with minor deviations.

[@CartoreAOS]

Commander is speeding up. I enjoy that my playgroups games end around turn 8-9 because it means games dont drag out and we can play more of them.

[@FireProphet]

The biggest change I've noticed playing pickup games online or at the LGS is that there is a much bigger rush to play the 'new' thing, the new powerful commander. In 2013-2015 when Commander was mostly a side format, players tended to have less commander decks and they stuck with them longer, and had much more unique builds of those commanders. There were pushed commanders back then (Krenko, Animar, Zur, Narset, GAA IV, Jhoira of the Ghitu) but you wouldn't see them over and over. Commander 2016 and 2017 were the first time I remember going to the LGS and running into pod after pod of the same handful of commanders. The percentage of pushed commanders is about the same, but there is simply so much product that in any given time span that there is always some recent pushed commander clogging up pods.

[@joeferreti9442]

Looking at the number of turn cycles in games is only one way to look at the problem. That value is also distorted by early combo finishes and standoffs between remaining 2 players and so on. The real problem is the power creep that leads to a shift towards lower mana curves. And that might not be directly connected to what statistically come out as the number of turn cycles per game. Commander started out as a format where you could play cards that you couldn't play anywhere else. And that was great! But the power creep continually leads away from that. And that is sad!

[@ELFanatic]

That does seem to be the problem. I think WOTC should have focused more on getting the big cards out more consistently and reliably.

[@RCrowlzor]

That is exactly my problem with the current direction of the format. I fell in love with commander because I'm a timmy. I want to cast over costed, splashy spells. I loved Commander because I love Godsire(8 cmc naya 8/8 that creates more 8/8s). When playing godsire on curve is not only viable, but powerful, I am the happiest I can be. and we have left that world in the dust.

[@Shyke-w3j]

One thing that isn't being talked about enough is the effect of new and explosive cards on mulligan strategies. Many casual players don't feel how bad cards like mana crypt and jeweled lotus are on play patterns because they don't know that when these cards are in your deck the best strategy is to start the game by mulliganing aggressively for explosive turn 1 and 2s. As soon as one player at the pod figures this out, and starts 3/4s of their games with turn 1 fast mana, it forces each other player to start doing the same to keep up. Most of my pods now need an extra 10+ minutes of every player mulliganing for the perfect opening hands. Whats really different about decks today is that there is enough redundancy in fast mana that these mulligan strategies are viable. Previously it wasn't feasible to mulligan for only sol ring in your deck so the scenario where one player runs away with the game was far more rare.

[@patrickbaillargeon7568]

First off there was some fantastic discussion in this episode so I give everybody props for that. Secondly Krim has the absolute worst tape on balance and power level. I'm going to preface this by saying I completely agree that there needs to be more answers in the format and more ability to stifle things that have been taken for granted by the community at large. The ability to deny extra card draw and I tutors and destroy lands or ramp is incredibly important and the fact that there's a stigma around destroying lands in the format leads green decks to just ramp as hard as they can and never be punished for it which I think is incredibly unhealthy. Here's my problem with Krim's take in this episode. You can never balance high power level by raising everything else's power level to match. At that point you are just creating an arms race which only has one inevitability where any deck can win almost instantly. Furthermore if the foreman continues in this upwardly powered trajectory will eventually get to the point where just about any deck that's actually trying to win we'll have the ability to take any handful of cards and produce a winning game state out of that and once that happens games are decided just by variance, who has the best opening hand and who has the best draws and at that point why are we even bothering. As two ways to fix this power cream and speed up wizards needs to stop pushing and printing to meet that faster demand. Is there a good way to fix what's already been printed and what damages already been done absolutely not. They can either be banned or left in the format as the upper tier or be stigmatized by the community as two high-powered etc. There's no way to go back and undo the problems that wizards is caused by being to invested in the commander format so instead of trying to fix what's already been done the focus needs to be on preventing it from getting worse and keeping things under the power level that has been printed in recent years.

[@PalPlays]

"Krim" "Power cream" You need to turn off autocorrect, dude.

[@damonlouis6536]

this is from a defeated pov. We do need better answers to fast mana and fast combos designed to punish people jumping out the gate. True it's on rule 0 and the group but wizrds needs to correct the situation as well, sheldons not gonna do it

[@mutant9137]

This whole podcast was Seth and Tomer trying to say that games on average games in 2022 have variance that leads to one sided games because of the effectiveness of new cards where back in the day the effectiveness of cards being played lead to more games where game plans are able to become more fleshed out across the board. Then Crim or Richard comes in and says no that's not what I see or I don't have a problem with that discussion over. I feel as though Crim and Richard just don't see those games often enough or something because on mtgo I would say about over a half of games I see has someone pull way ahead of everybody else earlier with one of the busted cards + others which allows them to make more powerful and restrictive plays than everyone else faster, then the game is over. Snowballing is a problem and it's not answered anymore by having three other people at the table. Everything is to efficient

[@NoticemeSinPi]

It's not that they don't see the games, Crim plays answers and Richard runs enough creatures to reliably have board presence whereas Seth and Tomer tend to not and so are more susceptible to getting goldfished.

[@spudster8887]

Tomer and Seth are trying to use imbalanced deck building to make their points. Their whole argument seemed to be based on the idea that one player has a significantly stronger deck than the rest of the table, which is not a problem of new cards being printed, its a problem of people being bad at deck building. If you know you are playing in a precon or just above precon environment for example, you should not be playing any form of fast mana or things like that. Its on you as a player to recognise what you are aiming to do, and build towards that. Hell, this whole view is why alot of people want fast mana banned, when in reality it has nothing to do with fast mana, it has more to do with people playing cards that don't belong in low to mid power, at low to mid power tables imo. I also suspect, the reason seth and tomer have these kinds of issues is that they don't play enough interaction in their decks, another thing that is common among players that make these kinds of complaints.

[@VexylObby]

@@NoticemeSinPi Even in my pods where we have answers, sometimes they are just not enough with how swingy the format has become...

[@sanguavour]

I'd say another thing is how people are building their decks, which definitely changes your perception of the format and games you play. I have a friend who only built tribal decks because they were straightforward, and his only goal was to win. His goal was simply to bring everyone's life total to zero (or mill you out with zombie) and nothing else. That was how he played commander and that's it. Compared to him, I'm a really bad MTG player, because my goal isn't always to win, but rather make something work. When Shadows Over Innistrad came out, I loved the idea of Delirium and Investigate, so I designed a Sultai deck that focused on those two mechanics. My win conditions were either Soul Swallower or Confront the Unknown. As you can probably tell, it wasn't a great deck, but I loved it because I found a way to make these two specific and narrow (at the time, this was a little after Eldritch Moon came out) mechanics work in a commander deck and I could play it against "actual" commander decks and vaguely have an impact on the game. Between the two of us over the years, a lot of the "problematic" cards didn't really affect us. Dockside doesn't really fit in a Dinosaur Tribal deck because it's a miss with Gishath (that's basically all he cared about tbh), and I sold my copy of the card a long time ago because I never really played it, I had more fun playing Inprisoned in the Moon on someone's Emrakul, The Promised End than actually winning the game. I know my opinion isn't actually consistent with most people, but I honestly don't care about winning, I try and make something ridiculous work, because that's what the format is to me: Where anything goes and nothing is too ridiculous. I sit down at a table and we play, I'll try and win, but if I don't then I at least get to show off my ability to turn trash into something functional.

[@stankylegg1782]

With Tomer and Seth on this 100%.

[@binksee]

Games are also being propped up in length by better answers being printed - threats are way stronger but answers are more modular and more colors can answer more things. Eg: Farewell (? 4WW from KNL) vs Austere Command

[@paulhorton8193]

Another thought. What about a colorless Enchantment, or artifact that has an effect like: everytime a player taps an artifact for mana each player gets that same mana on the start of their first main phase. It would basically be a tax effect for using mana rocks without slowing a table down.

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

I recommend cards like crystal ball or anything that can help scry because it smooths out your draws and manipulates what you draw. Definitely run the 2 mana diamonds because even though they enter untapped, they are still cheap ramp and on the other side, I'd recommend cards like pulverize that destroy artifacts so that can help you from getting too far behind. You'll only be doen 2 mountains, as opposed to all the treasure and artifact ramp that had been on the board

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

I think that you were hitting a good point when talking about budget. It seems that accessibility affects the perception of cards. Salt seems correlated with the price and availability of cards. You were comparing Sol Ring which is fast mana, with other fast mana but expensive cards, and their difference in salt score.

[@Ariaoff.Limits]

I run a high powered Korvold deck - I love when people are playing other high powered decks - its CEDH light and fun. Matching power level defiantly make a difference. I rarely play Korvold because I rule zero even in pick up games.

[@joshholmes1372]

Good for you! Arguably rule 0 is MOST important in pugs because at least in a dedicated pod you know how the other players build and play vs randoms at an LGS.

[@metaphics]

I play on spelltable on lfg low. The best games start with a brief talk about what the decks are trying to do. As for the current direction, I like when card designs help undersupported archetypes, like Commanders plate being a great card for mono colored decks.

[@FakeDonut]

Because you referenced your anime-theme at 09:49 , you should totally bring that back for the next season!!! Kamigawas legendarys look awesome

[@aggressivli]

It's getting faster for a couple of sets now, since wizards took a bigger interest in commander. It's not really surprising, commander used to be a format where you can play older (and thus often cheaper) cards, but wizards wants to sell new cards, so they have to cycle out the old ones by outperforming them. It's kinda sad, a lot of my old commander decks are unplayable nowadays, and some used to be really fun ones, but there is no point in playing them when I get roflstomped in turn 5 or 6. And the worst part? It irreversible, you can never make the format slower again.

[@robertbauerle5592]

Technically it's not irreversable, it would just require a very ornate and large ban-list, which the RC will most likely never implement. Most of the newer cards are actually fine, but there are several crazy cards from each new set that are just pushing the power level forward. You can really see this if you look at some 4 or 5 color cEDH decks, where there's a crazy large portion of them that have been printed in the last few years. I personally don't mind it - I've always kind of built my decks to run at this speed, and basically none of them have actually gotten faster as of recent. I prefer the higher power level of commander (7-10 power level range) over the hyper-casual side (theme or group hug, the win-con-less deck types) though, which I know not all players do.

[@stronggreenflame]

You could ban all fast mana and tutors. That would slow it down. But to be honest 2013 commander was slow because of peoples mindset. Everyone just thought the biggest creature won games and that turned out not to be true.

[@ernestgarcia5488]

I'd pay good money to see Crim and Tomer attempt the fusion dance xD

[@kingfuzzy2]

me too thanks

[@AndrewRaymund]

Really enjoyed this! I'll throw in two cents: what Tomer is describing around the 1:05:00 mark is the CEDH mindset. If your approach to building your Commander deck is to choose a card over another card because it a more powerful card - that's CEDH. Making choices to win over all else. You can make CEDH choices around "not powerful cards."

[@VexylObby]

I mean, I can see the appeal of making even jank decks more optimized, so we can do more jank! But only to a certain degree, right?

[@AndrewRaymund]

@James Black I think that your example is a slight over-simplification, and part of that is my fault for not typing a longer post. For a different example - we could look at something like Utopia Sprawl vs one of the 3 mana land enchants. Utopia Sprawl is the more powerful option in basically every deck, but one of the three mana equivalents may produce more synergy or be more "more powerful" in certain themes. If we consistently choose power over theme (or "jank") then we start making decks closer and closer to CeDH. Nature's claim is a bit harder to find an equivalent. In parallel to card choices - your mindset when deck building and playing games is maybe more important - choices in game or in deck building that are driven by wanting to win instead of "pop-off" as Tomer described it push the format you are playing closer and closer to CeDH. Perhaps obviously this is a super complex thing, especially thinking and talking about motivations; which is why this is a Hard Thing to describe, come to a consensus on, and actually communicate well with one another about, especially in pickup groups.

[@AndrewRaymund]

@@VexylObby Yeah! And I think there is a huge difference between [as an example] "I put powerful cards in my deck so that I can make 100 tokens instead of 10!" and "I put powerful cards in my deck so that I can win."

[@stevenburton7725]

I run Kambal with only removal spells against the cedh decks on mtgo. I slow every table down to classic, and it’s hilarious to see most decks try to win without their pretty toys

[@nheimi99]

Do you have a way to win..?

[@stevenburton7725]

@@nheimi99 creatures that have destruction etb’s, Kambal can stop most combo decks extremely fast, and I do have a felidar guardian that has never survived (but it is there).

[@nheimi99]

​@@stevenburton7725 I hope this doesn't offend you but I need to know...why do you play to simply to momentarily stop others? If you have no real wincons, then you're just existing to prolong the game. That has to be frustrating for your playgroup...

[@stevenburton7725]

@@nheimi99 if you read the original post, you would see that it’s only on mtgo, and only against cedh tables. My friends and I don’t play cedh

[@nheimi99]

@@stevenburton7725 I didn't say anything about your friends. So then you literally are just playing against randoms to prolong their games with no real wincons?

[@deweyck6820]

A lot of players complain about control and “stacks” and that sort of thing. But if you include one “friendly” stacks card that forces people to interact or think about it as a threat then I think that helps to slow the game down. It’s not about controlling a player out of the game but like Crim says responding so that you can stay in it to pull out the win.

[@VexylObby]

Pick up games are not necessarily frowned upon because of losing. It’s because of time constraints. Do what you can to make good use of the other player’s time too.

[@-homerow-]

I'd like to see a game the $100 upgrade to the OG 4C Commanders lists. Using old cards to really Feel what that play styles/play patterns/game tempo ect ect. We would also get to see what those deck prices are now.

[@anthonylewis6656]

I think the format is getting faster for how efficiently you can win however I also think the ability to cut your opponents off from winning is also getting more efficient. However I find that many players tend to want to make themselves faster and more redundant instead of having the ability to interact. I honestly think many players don't want the responsibility of interacting and it only leaves the option to move faster. All of the groups I play with kinda show this where people are cutting interaction for another win con or a way to recur their wincon. I've seen people literally not be able to win because they lost their oracle an labman

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

Unfortunately those efficient answers are expensive (in terms of real dollars) but the efficient endings are cheap. Blue is the worst for this - their cards have gotten exponentially more powerful and disruptive, but they are costed out for casual players (fierce guardianship, force of negation, etc.)

[@zacharymccutcheon8607]

Yeah, it's interesting watching this conversation so close to the spot removal conversation.

[@bladetb3934]

The speed of the format and the aspect of it getting fast is very good. You get far more games in. I remember commander 5 or 6 years ago games would commonly last over 2hours. Now it's very rare for that to happen and that makes it more special

[@HesJuanShot]

It would be interesting to have a restriction on cards before a certain year for a commander clash. We can combine the more experienced deck building with the lower powered/older cards to see how much of an effect the new cards have on average turns.

[@roelofftan8814]

to me the best way to check if magic is getting faster and is that a good thing, is to NOT look at cedh or high power edh. you look at wat people see as casual/ kitchen table edh. all my groups basically call a deck kitchen table if it has very few tutors and the average manacost goes up by 2. but the mana base/ draw suit/ removal suit stays the same. the average commander game i had 4 years ago just doesnt exsist anymore.

[@joshholmes1372]

Win cons have shifted from damage and beat down to combos and critical mass synergy pieces

[@VexylObby]

@@joshholmes1372 What’s weird is that those were always there. But now combo (etc.) is only made easier by the efficiency of card advantage and mana production.

[@MTGSavage]

I can’t honestly see how you guys don’t see that the casual version of commander hasn’t been leaning towards more of a cEDH meta? cEDH is mana crypt, Gaea’s Cradle, Jeweled Lotus, etc. and that’s almost all I experience in my meta of who I play commander against on a regular basis. Just because people aren't jamming tier 1 win conditions like Thassa’s Oracle + Demonic Consultation in their decks that could have access to those cards based off of their commanders color identity doesn’t mean that players aren’t lowering the curve of their deck overall and running more cEDH viewed cards in their decks. I agree with Tomer & Seth, my pick-up game experience lately (meaning the last two years at least) has been miserable when people try to say their decks power level with the rule zero conversation. They’ll say their deck is a 5 (the most common answer) when it’s really a 8-9-10 and it’s obnoxious and not only do I make it appoint to call them out on their BS and make them feel extremely uncomfortable but if they do it in person I make them scoop their stuff up and go sit somewhere else while we finish the game without them. Nobody cares if you combo’d off on turns 1-2-3-4, now go sit alone over there if you want to play solitaire.

[@starmanda88]

Good. That’s the correct response and attitude for pubstompers. I have zero patience for that shit.

[@MTGSavage]

@@starmanda88 Yeah I'm very vocal about how much I hate pubstompers and usually people are quick to read my body language and get up and move away but playing people on Spell Table it's so stupid because people just want to end the game as fast as possible it seems.

[@alaricpaley6865]

I literally play a Grand Arbiter Deck for when the table is tuned too fast. Just grind it to a halt. "Did you pay the one" turns into "Did you pay 6, sacrifice a permanent and bounce a land to your hand??" Usually the table just quits out of disgust, so it's reserved for when you have the one spike that bothers you..

[@SladeWeston]

Quest for the Jank Lord is the best 100 card format by a mile. Basically no cards over 79 cents. It's great because no matter how CEDH you try and build your deck, the end result is a nearly perfect length game of commander. You don't have nearly any of the brokeness of many of the straight to Commander cards but you still get the a ton of variety. Plus, decks only cost $30-$40 bucks, so your group has more variety and there is less of a barrier of entry for new players. Lastly, the ability to find "hidden gems" becomes a fun new elements as the dynamic price nature of cards and reprints helps keep the format evolving.

[@TheMrLifeguard]

Tomer's comments about issues with pickup games versus curated playgroups really underline the biggest ongoing issue with Commander. Players coming in without a good incentive to be open in their Rule 0 conversation are going to continue to cause problems. On the other hand, players that are well-equipped to have these open conversations are less likely to run into these issues but it does take time. Short and quick power level discussions for pick up games just don't cut it with pick up games and random players, not to mention that deck power level is far too subjective to be useful.

[@Thunderkeg]

My lgs regularly has like 20+ people for commander nights and probably half of them have pretty strong decks. Usually people will ask to be put in a high powered pod if they have a deck they want to play and there are some mismatches still but for the most part everyone has fun I think.

[@aaronhooper4803]

Crim's hair has this magical ability to confuse me about whether it's an old episode or not xD

[@jonathanpeterson1]

I’d also like to add, a card being printed in a precon does not necessarily equate to availability or a lot of people having them. Some people with the money to do so will buy multiple copies of a precon deck just for those one or two powerful cards and then sell/trade off the rest of the deck. If someone really wants a Fierce Guardianship for example, I could easily see them buying 10 or more of those precons just for that card. Now that’s almost like an artificial number of those cards available. Sure, X amount of decks sold, but that could be a very different number to the x amount of players who actually have that card.

[@mitchellblackburn9009]

I learned to play from a group of friends and we formed a pod. We started slow and then arms raced a bit. But it was all solved through discussion. Our group broke up due to geography and so I've started playing pickup at a LGS. And have started seeing some of what Tomer was talking about. But I think the issues are player compatability not card strength. I think we are starting to have bleed over from other gaming with the mentality of "get good scrub". I think there is almost a new subset of EDH between casual and CEDH. The social contract and hoping for a fun game for all is not present in this group but the power level is still only a 7 or 8. It's just very Spike players.

[@PhoenixianDragon11]

For a long time I’ve thought the “power level” conversation is not helpful. Personally, I think that pre-game conversation should be about the speed and play patterns of your deck. How fast of a game is everyone up for, and what kind of game does everyone at the table want to have. At least that way everyone’s expectations are more well managed, and the whole table can have a good experience.

[@deifiedtitan]

People are absolutely awful at evaluating power level.

[@joshholmes1372]

Not only that but if someone is specifically playing a graveyard hate heavy deck you will feel bad playing recursion/mill/etc decks.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

Honestly power levels correlate to how fast a deck is till you get below a 7 then it is more so about mentality as no way in hell a new player can make a power level 2 deck accidently it has to be intentional

[@HugSeal42]

I prefer slower games since it allows you to play more silly expensive crazy cards. I think a big culprit is the absurd new commanders that have been printed. They blow old legends out of the water and with partner you can even tailor the colors and effects to just what you want. Fast mana has much more impact when you can guarantee to always have an outlet for it ready to be cast. It is also possible to not only have the outlet for a bunch of mana always castable but you can also have a way to make absurd/infinite mana as well. One thing worth noting though is that fewer turns in a game does not mean fewer interactions or cards played. Cheaper dangerous threats mean you need more cheap interaction. I also think that faster games means there is less leeway for variance between the decks power level. If you bring an old deck to people playing with newer faster cards it's easy to feel that you didn't do anything during the game. If the game is slower you will usually get the opportunity to do something.

[@bodaciouschad]

1:01:28 Yes Richard, you're spot on. People playing weekly pickup games at college slotted the win cons of CEDH decks into their "casual" EDH decks and called those decks casual. No- thoracle, ad neasuem, demonic tutor/vampyric tutor/etc, sensei's divining top: none of those cards are casual. Period.

[@CJ-nd9gg]

That’s just wrong. Obviously casual wincons with cedh cards for the utility is the way to go :p

[@alecolson8360]

This is my biggest problem with playing in a lot of groups they just choose their favorite cedh deck, take out the win cons, and shove in a couple jank cards

[@oafkad]

I initially disagreed with Crim but the idea of Narset for mana (as long as it's symmetrical) is great.

[@ryanousley6939]

My playgroup (mostly) solved the speed/power creep issue by dividing commander into two formats: "normal" and "classic". Classic bans everything that did not pass through a 3.99 or less standard legal booster pack, thus getting rid of most printed for commander cards. It's still not quite battle cruiser magic, but the noticeable drop in power and speed (several 2 mana ramp spells are gone) makes a lot of "cool but slow" cards more viable. Having decks for both has allowed us to tailor our game nights based on how many or what type of games we want to get in, and I'd encourage people to give it a try if they're missing the older, splashier games.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

careful green decks can still get around that

[@MrMarclax]

If you want to fix edh at a pick-up games level, you need more effective bans

[@VexylObby]

Nobody wants to hear that, right? So what else do we do? Can the community really talk about it enough to stigmatize it, or to convince solitary thinkers that they should feel the same?

[@ConstanceMists]

Ill say this, Ive rule done rule 0 and played on spelltable w random people plenty of times and had an enjoyable time power level wise

[@georgehadley854]

1:14:04 - Tomer talking about the 5-color angel got me all excited (first EDH deck was an angel deck) "You trick casuals into thinking it's great, but it's not." Ooooooooooof, that hurts lol

[@Kryptnyt]

A five color angel that makes all of my angels 1 cheaper for free while in the command zone, totally original idea do not steal

[@sc100ott]

My issue is that there are a lot of fun commanders which do fun things without being overly oppressive, but you need them on the battlefield in order to do your thing. So you need good spells to protect them, or maybe you play some other salty cards just to make an otherwise janky deck competitive. OK, but then someone can have a super oppressive commander and they have access to those same cards. I know they use a point system in Canadian highlander, but that is sometimes hard to calculate, monitor, police, etc.

[@MusicalBoarder]

You should do a podcast on custom commander's that people have done that are within reason of something wotc would do. Not just like "cast and win" commanders. And showcase each of you with like 4 favourites and what real world way you would build each deck for them. Also, on the topic of fast mana. I have a colourless deck with Hope of Ghirapur as commander. No eldrazi. All artifacts, like 2 pw'ers. I can empty my hand with turn 1 land sol ring mana crypt grim monolith howling mine commander cast etc. But I get fucked after that. I have mine and the artifact that is double mine (draw 2 extra cards on upkeep), because I don't build my deck to a point where it is absolutely efficient. A lot of the time I hope that I can get the three 'of Empires' cards and win that way. I don't think it is necessarily individual cards that are broken, but the way someone builds around them. I can cast a dockside, get 10 treasure, but if I have no card draw or ways to replenish my resources or a mana sink, who cares? It isn't necessarily an immediate win imo. Idk. Maybe I just build decks badly? Haha.

[@LydCal999]

my friend and I usually just play against eachother, but recently a third guy joined us who has nothing but infinite combos. He ends every game on turn 8 or something and it's really infuriating.

[@antoniowhite9281]

I know infinite combos have a place but it sucks when the back and forth gets knocked away because someone wants to shodow box in the middle of the game and then wins. Then have a nerve to say that was fun or ggs

[@DH-gv6cj]

the simple answer is to create house ban rules (sol ring/crypt/vault/grim monolith) value table cards like (rhystic study, smothering tithe, dockside extortionist) every other card that says 'commander' on it outside of partner mechanic (arcane signet, fierce guardianship, jeskas will, jeweled lotus) also to make games run smooth and fairly, ban every card that says 'shuffle' (tutors, rampant growth spells, fetch lands) none of these cards will be missed and it frees you to play 99 slots instead of 90.

[@aureliaaugusta1507]

I largely agree with Crim and Richard on this one - the problems are lack of readily accessible answers to big threats (readily accessible being defined here as existing in the format and being at a reasonable price point), and ambiguous expectations around what EDH's 'casual competitive' ethos means when it comes to pick-up gaming. 'Casual' is, unfortunately, a pretty meaningless term when it comes to a large group of people. Coming from the MMO world where one person's 'casual' play is logging on just to do story content after each major update, another can be grinding dailies, and yet another is regularly doing pick-up raiding, people just don't have a good barometer for what other people look for in a 'casual' format. Even the notion of 'doing my deck's thing' is hard to gauge. Sometimes decks are just natural enemies too! If I'm playing control or big spells, me being able to do my thing _necessitates_ shutting down the aggro creature deck and vice versa.

[@DDPMonster]

I think the biggest problem is that there are many casual decks that don't have a ton of super powerful cards but when they draw the few that they do have you get a indestructible squirrel that dumpsters your opponents in a low powered deck and that can feel bad.

[@coreysierchio4650]

Added content to EDH games like "Planeschase," "Archenemy," & "Explorers of Ixalan" allow my battlecruiser decks to stand a chance. And by stand a chance, I mean, I get to have fun. Also, it's just a game. *Clash On* ! *Thanks for the Content* !

[@jimstar9954]

The problem with the power creep in my opinion is that it's more a matter of "who's got the lucky draw" now than a matter of who built and played better... And i'm seeing more and more "non games" too.