Are Commander Games Too Long? | Commander Clash Podcast 117

What is the perfect length for a game of Commander, and how does game length look in 2023?
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[@PajamaSam18]

I swear, Tomer always gives his intro like he’s being held at gunpoint and honestly it cracks me up every time! 😂 I don’t even know if he’s doing it on purpose or not lol

[@colecarmichael5724]

He’s just shy person I can tell

[@Hurtishappy]

Wow this is spot on 😂

[@TostonDePana]

He's probably shy, yeah. I'd be terrified of being in a video that's watched by thousands of people so I get it.

[@The-Nomad1]

I can't unsee it now

[@thedark1owns]

​@@TostonDePanahe's in the wrong profession then haha. Honestly I thought he seemed fine.

[@lordspaz88]

39:39 Farewell. Is. Modular. You can choose exactly what you want to exile everytime. That's the real reason it's so popular. Is it can literally be molded into what you need for each situation.

[@japankore]

I feel like when you talk about Farewell you act like you have to choose every option. You can look at the board and choose what you need. It's flexibility is why it's so good.

[@bronythekight7369]

And the new wrath has a similar power level where it can be a sudo one sided board wipe in a creature heavy or tribal deck cause it doesn’t exile all the creature that share a creature type with any of the creatures that convoked it. I’m gonna put it in my Preston white weenie reanimator deck as a nice win con since I’ll probably keep most of my creatures after the fact. And maybe a few opponents creature will get through cause they happen to share a type with my many weenies.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

​@@bronythekight7369what card are you referring to?

[@michaelcollins4534]

Why it's way too good*

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

@@Blacklodge_Willyit’s the white boardwipe from Dr. Who

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

@@johnathanrhoades7751 I've seen it since I responded. 'Everything Comes To Dust', yes very strong indeed.

[@Stefanish]

I found that commander games are too long only when players are really slow. Some players take a huge amount of time to make decisions or to resolve their cards.

[@Thecalebpoe]

I have a friend who will have 3 mana, literally no cast-able cards and still stare at his hand for 5 minutes...

[@starmanda88]

There’s a girl I play with (I’m also a lady) and she will take ten minutes on turn one to figure out which land to drop. It’s infuriating.

[@Pedro-ho2xj]

I'd try to avoid those players entirely tbh

[@jjvh500]

My knee-jerk reaction is: "No, commander games in general are fine. The games on this channel specifically take too long due to your general love of boardwipes and how heavily your group will play around things the others MIGHT have in hand." Some of the game length here can be attributed to your group not cutting out the banter, which can actually be nice as it makes your games feel more like they are matches between friends because of the banter! There is something to be said that cards in general tend to have more triggers than they did in the past which can increase turns simply due to more actions needing to be taken. Overall, however, I don't think game length is a concern at the moment for the average pod!

[@Gettles]

Within the first 10 minutes they are already starting to notice it's not commander that takes to long, it's the type of decks they like to build

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

"I fear not the game when players each take twenty one-minute turns, I fear the game where one player takes one twenty-minute turn."

[@delailama736]

Is there anything worse than playing against a deck where they get a huge board state that has a million triggers that don't really progress the game. I stopped playing board wipes to make games go faster but i think it makes them go slower because of the people who get all the triggers and do nothing with them.

[@cyrus6236]

-Bruce Lee

[@williamyoung9214]

Name checks out

[@Kryptnyt]

@@delailama736 the natural progression of playing suboptimally in order to lose faster is just to concede when the game starts!

[@delailama736]

@@Kryptnyt It does feel that way. I might be getting over Magic. Just seeing the same staple cards all the time and a complete lack of originality.

[@DylanHunter64]

I think cards like Teferi's Protection and Everybody Lives do double duty as cards that can make games go way longer but also make games end faster by keeping a game winning board alive.

[@matthewbajkowski2210]

Around the skill level comments and playing turns faster, familiarity with deck and practicing/goldfishing your decks is a key component and helps keep game times reasonable.

[@Demotros]

Removal(target and blanket) has gotten so efficient games feel longer because we’re constantly rebuilding.

[@anxez]

The fact that everyone has the gas to rebuild even when removal is efficient is proof that the removal is in a good place.

[@seanedgar164]

​@@anxezif someone's out of the game from a board wipe, I'm gonna try everything else before wiping. I also build my decks to not threaten massively lethal boards. My engines aren't scary because they feed into fair magic

[@magica3526]

I just wish my opponents would know what they're doing on their turns ahead of time

[@punkypinko2965]

Yeah the whole "no plan" thing drives me nuts sometimes too. It's like people like that just play randomly.

[@Mavczers]

they did until you wiped their board. Or in my gf case I put Wild growth on a forest...

[@VexylObby]

In my experience, we try, but the actions right before their turn, and that one card draw changes so much now.

[@TastySnackies]

The first few turns, sure. Turn 6-8 where there can easily be 4 different static effects, 5 different possible triggers to manage, and open mana controlled by opponents will always make most players take pause

[@killersamson7881]

It's easy when you don't play interaction and don't care about the board pursuing a combo but every card opponents play and card you draw alters your plan.

[@Dom9606]

yes games are too long when you're always playing several wraths and teferis protections yes that is correct

[@supranova7594]

Omg yes we tried the new Dr who precons and first game was almost 3hrs cuz of the amount of removal and wipes they put in those decks, game 2 hit two hours and we literally just all scooped out of boredom cuz nobody could keep a board or get something going. Like I personally hate combos but Id 100% be fine with people running tutors and 2 board wipes for when they Actually need it to finish the game rather than just firing them off back to back cuz their boardstate is slightly disadvantaged to one player

[@nathand6467]

Two things at my LGS that are extending games are ; a) People playing slow. Not considering their lines before its their turn or just taking too long in the early phases where they only really have 1 line, and little things like tutoring with no idea what they are tutoring for, etc. b) as Crims says not attacking. Not someone alpha striking on turn 3, its players not attacking for teens of damage on turns 4-6, even when they can't be effectively attacked back. Several players in the pod not going to combat until they can win or not at all.

[@delailama736]

Yeah, people seem to be terrified of looking like they are picking on someone or trying to make one person lose. But also I find some people do get really upset when they get attacked and they get more upset when they think there is a better option and so people just don't attack so it doesn't hurt people's feelings and they just um and ah and take time to not do anything.

[@floridaman6982]

@@delailama736 attack them more and tell em to bring blockers lol

[@jo_ken]

I think it breaks down like this 45 min or less means someone popped off and took everyone out, an hour to an hour and a half means a normal game, two hours means there has been some board wipes and set the situation back to zero a few times, over two means you are in a slog of nobody being able to win.

[@vincent-antoinesoucy1872]

What I hate about farewell is that if you play board protection in the form of indestructible and recursion to get back in the game, the card you put to be safe don't even do what is written on the cards, so if farewell is in the game, the only board protection that is a sound choice is phasing, so way less cards are available, less choice just seems to suck. I've never felt that farewell was fun when it resolved ever.

[@BloodMoonGo]

As a long-time EDH player, my play patterns have greatly sped up, as have my usual playgroups. Games that take 1.5 hours + occur when a rando at the LGS joins the pod. They take awhile to decide which card to play, don’t shortcut, and generally aren't concerned with time saving measures. Heavily invested players tend to take game actions like ramping then passing while they search. Or ramping then casting a spell, then resolving the tutor. The saving of 30 seconds here and there does a lot to speed up games. The same can be said for knowing your deck. As my group’s resident black player, I always know what my black decks aim to do. Evem my newly built decks have play patterns I am already familiar with, which cut down on thinking time. These are skills and actions you just have to develop over time, as evident by players and groups who have played edh for 10+ years

[@cameroncaler5062]

Did nobody see Seth get up and slap him self? 😂

[@xavierlavocat8621]

I think he forgot to do something important

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

(Seth) I have this weird heart arrhythmia sometimes, something to do with having an extra valve in my heart. It doesn't happen very often, but every once and a while my heart will randomly start beating at like 200 beat per minute and usually need some kind of shock (cold water on your face, a slap) to make it stop. Never had it happen during a recording before, but that's what was going on. Ended up splashing some cold water on my face and it stopped.

[@supranova7594]

​@@MTGGoldfishCommanderoof well hope your ok buddy that definitely doesn't sound fun to deal with. Was a little shocking to see out of context but understandable. Had a friend with murmurs had to do something similar due to it slowing down too much.

[@jackl8025]

​@@MTGGoldfishCommandertake care, Seth!! ❤️

[@SmokeADig]

Yeah I was concerned. Hope you’re good dude! 🙌

[@Lattle828]

I enjoy watching your long games since it makes for good and engaging content where it's hard to predict what will happen and is like a wild story with twists and turns, however I don't like playing long games myself. I used to play control and value piles now I mostly play aggro to finish games faster

[@JessBritvec]

I think colors other than white being helpless against Farewell isn't really true, you just have to realize the color pie exists and the way each color does this is different. White's part of the pie protects your board, blue interacts on the stack, Crim is right green has the resources to rebuild faster than everyone else, red operates on short term everything anyway, black is the worst, but you can still lean into a boardwipe with sac outlets and dies triggers to get some value in response and do your best imitation of green. Cards are not designed so that every commander and every deck play the same, you have to lean into what each one does better than others if you want it to perform for you. I don't think boardwipes make games longer, its that most players can't win soon enough afterward. I wouldn't make the assumption that everyone's deck is super efficient and well-built if they have no chance of fighting through the answers in the current card pool/meta. I think a lot of people undervalue either protecting their progress in the game, having redundant effects, or rebounding from a setback in some other way and because of that their deck is less consistent. Its challenging in a singleton format, and I'm not saying I never struggle with this, but I think a lot of people don't even try or care.

[@27777BigRedBarn]

My issue with Combo has been that as a relatively new commander player (1 year) it’s difficult to know when someone is assembling a combo at times. Most people catch on to certain combo pieces but as a newer player I find myself just not wanting to have a game end anticlimactically because I didn’t interact with a combo simply because I didn’t know that’s what was happening. I don’t think it’s right to ask the combo player to announce his combo ahead of time either. I have certainly softened my take on combo as an archetype. The multiple card combos requiring set up is totally cool with me but I do prefer to know the player is playing combo before we start the game. I tend to watch them more closely and look for ways their cards can interact together. I also try to hold up more interaction.

[@lucascoutinho2441]

I run a Jan jansen combo deck and I always say it's a combo deck. In the interest of saving time and having better games I point out, for less experienced players, what's a combo piece/you should read this/here's a tldr you should know. I at least anounce what's important. I don't want players to read all my cards and my primer (there isn't one), to figure out what's a neat interaction, a value engine or a combo piece. I don't care that your mana rock fixes your mana (chromatic lantern) but please anounce if your mana rock is a liquimetal torque (can turn things like magda into artifacts for combos with clock of omens).

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I just always say how my deck is trying to win and what turn it is kind of trying to win by. It keeps everyone on the same page and people know what they want to or don’t want to play against.

[@LilBouzy]

I typically stay away from two-card combos to keep games more varied (and try to assemble combos that have multiple pieces that can be part of multiple combos so variety is at its peak), but two of my recent decks have accidental two-card combos I didn’t intend for; I’m going to leave them in, though, and just see how often I instinctively go for them, and remove those combos if it becomes too samey

[@LilBouzy]

And to add to that, combos always have to synergize with the game plan, I’m not dropping infinite mana outlet + staple wincon in any deck, unless it’s winning how the rest of the deck planned to anyway. And some of my decks don’t even involve combos, because sometimes I just want to smash face through combat 😅

[@sanguavour]

My strongest deck is Mairsil the Pretender, and I just...tell people that I am a combo deck, and that they need to treat me as such. The reason why I think the deck works in a general and generic setting with random people is because I don't stop them from hitting me. Yeah, Propaganda can discourage people, and I have a couple wraths because I want to be responsible, but the vast majority of the time I have one, maybe two creatures on the board, and it's usually Mairsil. Mairsil is kind of a controlled Norin, you make me hide him so I don't lose him, and then odds are I have no creatures, so you can just hit me. I tell people not to feel bad about killing me, because I'm essentially building Mairsil into a sniper who will take anyone out in one shot, and it's near impossible to disassemble Mairsil once he's been built up. I provide incentive to attack because you can't let me sneak away unscathed, but I also force games to end, because either you kill me and take me out, or I kill the table. And it's not like I have it easy, I have to have a way of giving Mairsil haste either through a static effect like Fervor or Anger, or I need a way of giving him haste at instant speed. It's not as simple as Thoracle, but it's also very hard to interact with. I essentially play as a countdown timer, either you remove me from the game, or I eventually end the game. And the result is, from what I've seen, is better games. People don't just sit and durdle, they have to interact with me. People attack more, people use more graveyard hate, the game becomes more interactive, and even if I'm taken out, they were used to attacking anyway, so they don't stop, plus they're insentivized to hurry the game along so I could play again. And even with Teferi's Protection or Everyone Lives, I just do the combo again the moment the effects end. That's partially why I don't hate combos as much as some people do, because at the end of the day, the games have to have someone ending them. Either end the game or I'll end it for you, but one way or another, this game will end.

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

11:38 Thanks for signing my Rograkh and Ardenn, Richard! I also feel similarly. When you pull the deck out you're kind of hoping to get some early equipment and start swinging on turn 3 or 4, but yeah if you high roll with like a Colossus Hammer and double strike then it's kinda awkward.

[@brassheron]

On the discussion about people not liking combo’s. I was at Commandfest Birmingham in the UK this weekend. I played half a dozen Commander games and only one of them didn’t end with a combo. My friends also experienced a similarly high percentage of combo finishers. It felt as though combo was widely acceptable and expected, anecdotally speaking.

[@punkypinko2965]

I think the "no combo" thing is more of a casual setting. But I could be completely wrong.

[@VexylObby]

The opposite is my experience.

[@calvinbarboza]

I would be fine with farewell if it exiled itself. Also I have never had a game made significantly longer by Tef’s pro. Usually a player gets in a winning position and uses it to stop their board from being answered.

[@Maccabeus87]

Also, loved Crim's brutally awkward pause on a podcast about long games...it was painfully long, like some of the commander games I've played.

[@DegeneratesOfMagic]

I agree with Krim wholeheartedly. People don’t take players out for the sake of “being nice” and choose the latter of playing less optimally at the expense of giving them traction to establish a presence, which prolongs the game. If I have nothing going on im like “please, for the love of god, END ME.” And we just shuffle up and play again because im not dragging out the game hanging on by a string taking up turn actions. Also, this is coming from a modern player, so im pretty okay with most everything. No saltiness

[@aegisgolem6817]

While a lot of Crim’s personal/play style is kinda aggressively controlling, and I’d never say I’d want to play his style of decks(not consistently anyway, but I do have one I think he’d approve of), he tends to have generally good advice/takes. So when I remove the “crim” element of his tips, and allow them to be applied more generally, I find my games/play style/fun improving

[@zotha]

Crim's play style is aggressively deflecting. He spends the entire game pointing fingers and lying about his own position.

[@TheAsianAvenger69]

No I don't. >:)@@zotha

[@garettallen4963]

Time to make creatures who can't be exiled.

[@armadyllan2351]

Personally, I have many 45 minute to 1hour games in my group. Combos are perfectly fine and I wish people would be more open to them as a whole, like don’t build your deck around doing this one combo and make it as efficient as possible, but having combos you can stumble upon in your deck is fine. IMO people are way to worried about others to have end the game in a reasonable amount of time/reasonable way.

[@SamuelKacerik]

The issue with combos is that games end up abruptly and some players don't have enough time to play their decks. Either no one plays combos or everyone does. Random combos are one of the worst things in EDH in my experience. The argument for ending games in reasonable amount of time is just wrong for me.

[@armadyllan2351]

@@SamuelKacerik I think my issue with this is you are telling people not to play a whole archetype just because you don’t like that their deck “did the thing”. There’s plenty of decks in my play group that have combos, and we almost never have two of them in the same pod, even at my LGS. So maybe that’s confirmation bias, but it seems to me that the logistics behind if one person plays combo, then everyone plays combo isn’t sound. If you pull off a sick combo, then I’m like Sweet! I know what to look out for next time, especially since you can interact with 99% of them.

[@SamuelKacerik]

@@armadyllan2351Yes, this can be an "issue" with our group. I never play with random people. So definitely a bias there.

[@TrackMouse34]

It’s always hilarious to me how different Tomer’s perspective is around events. Tomer seems to think one thing is happening while the rest of the table are experiencing something totally different. The dissonance is fantastic lol

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I think the whole discussion, like what Seth was saying at 44:30, is that there needs to be Rock, Paper, and Scissors. Every game needs the things that win, and the answers to those things. Whether its combos or Farewell, or whatever, you need the threats and the answers to be roughly evenly balanced and dispersed. Then it comes down to deck composition and skill level, not "oops, I'm Jund, I lose to this".

[@happybrain2674]

but those musst also feel like theyr close the same lvl. its just not fun if the red player needs to play worldfire just to get a fighting chance or black needs to dictate of erebos so no creature can ever be a thing or green needs to pump 100 mana to win the game... we want diversity

[@JelloBrand]

You can still kill with Commander Damage through a teferis protection.

[@luckyknowsbest7866]

So in our playgroup games dont usually go too long, the games that do are usually because of mulitple farewells/Rifts. However I dont feel like it's a problem because it balances out with all the games that only a farewell will do.

[@MrMalorian]

In a recent game night there was a Farewell into an Armageddon. That was a 2.5 hours of my life I wish I had back...

[@obsydian_k]

commander has always been and will always be about the people you’re playing with. it’s a group game, as a table you define what you want your experience to be like. if your group has long games and you don’t enjoy it, bring it up with the group. if people at your table don’t want everyone to have fun while playing, those aren’t fun people to play with.

[@bassfingas11]

I think another factor to consider is how well one knows their/each other's decks. In my main play group, our games go about an hour give or take. I have a second play group where games tend to play a little longer, but that's due to one player playing stax and pillowforty type decks. But we just try and kill them first. I also feel like experience plays a role like you guys mentioned. But I think it goes the other way, where the experienced player can better identify threats quicker and act accordingly. Whether that be by removal, or by convincing the table that "X & Y" are the problem.

[@gzzuss]

When you having fun, you really don't care about the time😅

[@elijahwalker323]

I think the other good thing with conditional boardwipes is they lead to less just good stuff piles. makes synergies more important in commander.

[@baconsir1159]

44:50 - Seth, most combos can be stopped on the board with removal spells. Beast Within or Nature’s Claim, for example.

[@alanevans5353]

commander games are typically longer when people run a lot of interaction. If everyone is running interaction, I have to run protection for my stuff, which means I have less room for things that speed up my gameplan. I want to just run the deck without all the board wipes, spot removal, and protection, but I need removal to slow down decks that are faster than mine, and I need protection to save myself from their removal so I can actually play the game. In a playgroup it becomes a cycle of playing cards that draw the games out, because everyone else is playing those cards and you get blown out if you don't have a response to them. I think the mention of being afraid to kill someone early also has some level of effect, if taking someone out means they don't take long turns later it would definitely shorten the game, but I agree you shouldn't just kill someone outright early for no real reason. I tend to try to kill the whole table at once when I'm ahead, but lately I've been taught that that is a blunder that causes me to lose a lot of games very hard. It feels bad to kill someone early but if doing so cements your victory over the rest of the table it's 100% worth it.

[@alanevans5353]

as far as one sided board wipes are concerned we already have things like plague wind and in Garruk's wake. I'm not sure we need a one-sided wipe for each architype, but I don't mind having the occasional one for a creature type or something to help out a neat tribe.

[@andrewwiebe1384]

I feel like remora is fine just due to the cumulative upkeep, i mainly see it used to prevent people from popping off hella hard turn 1

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Is bowmasters and then wheel really a problem? It's a wincon that does what you wanted: speed up games. It's not like Hullbreacher where it locks you out.

[@lucascoutinho2441]

As for my two cents on combo decks in EDH. If a combo deck is consistent on how fast it can win and can be interacted with it's only a matter of power-level adjusting. The problem is some combo decks are very high variance and/or are very hard to disrupt. These combo decks can be both too weak for the table and too strong for the table at the same time.

[@Tclark6199]

The guys I play with have all been cutting board wipes. It seems we'd rather get smacked and lose so we can start a new game instead of basically starting the same game over again. (We still run them but treat them more as a nuclear option/Avengers level threat when no others are available)

[@SamuelKacerik]

I strongly aggre with this.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I always try for one-sided board wipes and only run between 1 and 3 in any given deck.

[@jacobbrj]

I've softened on infinite combos, as long as they end the game. I think the best way to play with them is to say what infinite combos you have in your deck before a game. There are too many infinite combos out there, and no one can keep track of what answers to hold up and how. Then the table can threat asses better. It would also avoid the "gotcha, infinite combo you never seen before" moments that can be sour. E aren't all professional players... and there are thousands of cards...

[@goldbergbrain]

My friend runs a Purphoros Deck that will straight-up kill everyone by turn 5 or so if he has a good start. He built it in response to the shenanigans and long games. Another friend in our playgroup runs lots of Ghostly Prison style effects. I’ve been on a mission lately to have people convert those into things like Windshaper Planetar or other aikido effects, because those protect you & actively move the game forward.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

At 5 CMC and only being a one-off ETB unless you have a blink deck, Windshaper Planetar would be a poor substitute for Ghost Prison.

[@goldbergbrain]

@@Dragon_Fyreit’s not, though, because it’s used at instant speed on a big attack. Ghostly Prison does no damage; this does. And in my playgroup, Ghostly Prison is hated, so it paints a huge target on the person playing it.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@goldbergbrain That’s more of a budget Inkshield fog, where Ghostly Prison is a pillow fort enchantment, where it buys you time with slower decks when playing versus aggro or go wide decks. They serve very different purposes IMO.

[@owenbauman7605]

Crim had me cheesin the whole time. Awesome episode!

[@TheBraxton17]

So I think that it relates to product fatigue too cause now you have to read every new card coming out and also a lot of people will just play a new deck without gold fishing at all and not know there lines or outs and just overthink a lot, had a game recently where the artifact deck that was in a commanding position in the game wouldn't do or say anything for minutes. I wasn't sure how to politely ask him how to hurry up and take his turn but we only played 2 games that night because of the longer games

[@commanderpower99]

1. Optimization is not a cause of making games longer. It is totally the opposite (see cEDH). 2. Yes. Teferi's pros, farewells, etc. Makes games longer bc they are cards that prevent players from dying rather than advancing their boards. It is a deckbuilding "issue". Some people build decks like that and it is fine. 3. Games are actually getting shorter bc cards are way more efficient and threatening. And if nobody is playing interaction, games tend to go 5 turns or shorter.

[@snakeorbreak6258]

“Optimization doesn’t make games shorter” Specifically calls out CEDH which is almost always over in 3-5 turns

[@snakeorbreak6258]

That or stax gets going and the game is twenty turns of “draw, go”

[@commanderpower99]

@@snakeorbreak6258 thanks for catching that mistake. I meant longer.

[@TristanB4]

Nowadays, while I'll go in the tank if needed- my default mode is nearly playing speed magic and I'm very conscious of how long my turn is taking and just trying to move games along in general. Games take too long! I wish everyone kind of had this attitude of just moving things along and getting through their turn asap.

[@AeonHero64]

3+ card, 8+ mana combos are fine, especially when the commander isn’t one of those pieces. As long as there’s an opportunity for folks to play the game before the win & there’s a chance to interact it’s fine. The issues come from turn 2-5 combos that come out of nowhere, it’s just an unfortunately common power imbalance that ends up feeling like pubstomping. It might not always be meant that way, but it sure feels like it sometimes.

[@robboomsma6739]

This comment is spot on for me! I absolutely agree but have not been able to explain my thoughts this well.

[@dead_g00n96]

When I was taught commander we played in 6-8 people pods, which was insane and the only way to really win in pods that big is to combo off and kill everyone at once. So combo can be necessary.

[@flyingwhale21]

For combos... Imo they are fine but if you have a two card combo in your deck especially if one of those cards is your commander. It's worth mentioning in rule 0

[@MakeVarahHappen]

If you had a bunch of overcosted one-sided wipes you would still need the not die board wipes. Like Richard said, they're wincons. At that cost they no longer cover their primary purpose of being protecting you.

[@ShredRedDUBC]

Here’s a combo that no one on the planet can possible hate: You have inferno of the start mounts out with a nettlecyst equipped to it. You have 13 treasures, so infernos power is currently at 20 because of the nettlecyst, just above its threshold to trigger its ability. You sacrifice a treasure to bring its power down to 19, and use the mana from the treasure to activate its ability, bringing its power back up to 20, shooting any target for 20 damage. You can do this for your remaining 12 treasures, which should be 240 damage to any target, should be enough to kill the table. That’s technically a 2 card combo, that took so much to pull off, and is so unheard of!! If that type of tomfoolery gets hate, we need a new 4 player casual format that allows such dope things. Up with late game combos !!

[@ShredRedDUBC]

Star mounts* not start mounts

[@davidarmstrong3964]

Y’all act like you have to choose every mode for Farewell. Farewell is so strong because you get to choose what to exile. You have recursion you don’t hit graveyards, you run artifacts you don’t hit artifacts, etc

[@danpearman270]

The conversation around 8 mins in (Seth and Tomer consciously choosing not to play decks they enjoy, just to keep games shorter) sums up the problem with what commander has become as a format. If you cannot play the decks you enjoy (in a supposedly 'casual' 'fun' format, played for 'enjoyment'), then what's the point in the format existing?

[@poisonedsugar0181]

This discussion is absolutely amazing. I would love to be apart a live podcast/stream and have these types of discussions.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Usually I agree with Tomer's soap box about jank combos but it doesn't seem super relevant. Richard brought up combos as a potential solution because moderate to powerful combos do get under a lot of the "problem" cards and behaviors being talked about. Tomer bringing up the worst combos known to man is useful when talking about the umbrella term combo but it doesn't really interact with the idea of wider combo destigmatizing being a solution to long games. Combos of all power levels have attributes that make them different to deal with than mid range or aggro. Not harder or easier, different. If you introduce a combo of comparable power level a 100 card deck has to remove something to adapt and hopefully that means shorter games. "More combat damage" is 100% a valid suggestion in speeding up games and no-changling Spike tribal doesn't change that.

[@PasDeMD]

"Whenever an opponent would draw one or more cards, deal X damage to X." Would fix synergy with wheels for draw punishment. The "problem" is that simultaneously doesn't punish self wheel or other ways of generating large amounts of card advantage at once.

[@greg6538]

Nuanced take on combos: I used to be very against combos. The longer I've played Commander the more I've realized how perfect combos are for a multiplayer format. I'm with Crim on why games go so long - people don't want to kill each other. Combos allow people to progress towards a win condition that doesn't create feelsbad moments where one person is knocked out early and has to sit around for an hour.

[@Groovemancer]

Teferi's Protection doesn't prevent commander damage tracking, just the damage, which if you have a way for your damage to go un-prevented, e.g. Questing Beast, or Stomp (Bonecrusher Giant adventure), their life total won't change (because of Teferi's Pro), but the tracking of commander damage will still increase from commander damage. It's a weird edge case, but it does exist.

[@FearOgre]

Along with infect, and lose the game damage like Vorpal Sword

[@biggymiggy6408]

I almost only play asymmetrical board wipes or modal ones so that I can keep my stuff and win the turn after or even the turn of the board wipe

[@Minervastouch]

When richard starts talking cathar's crusade he was talking about one of my earliest EDH decks post pre-cons. Roon bouncy house token maker and control. I'd have so many permanents that made like 3 tokens sometimes different power and toughness lol. I had so many d20s. I think more people wouldn't mind playing against combo if they knew up front and said im playing for a combo finisher but combo players are hesitant to say so because they "Know" whether true or not they will be targeted first and removed from the game. When a player combos out they essentially ignore the efforts of other player's board states and demand an answer RIGHT NOW. Most other players you get to see it coming and displayed on their board and you have turn(s) to combat the oncoming victory. Most combos just come out of hand and win on the spot. For better or worse thats my 2 cents on why combos generally make for poor EDH games in pick up group settings.

[@NKMitch42]

My experience is that in general games take about 25 minutes per player that started the game.

[@UVAFoozle]

I think you can rate the vague speed of the combo. In a rule-0 power discussion, we represent our decks efficiency, like how much fast mana, tutors, and interaction. I do think it's valid to not want to play against combo decks, but it also seems like people can't agree what constitutes a combo. If someone had to set up multiple cards uninterrupted for an unusual combo, I think that's more interesting than Akroma's Will, kill you.

[@xTGE]

I mean at my LGS it really depends. Some games will end after two turns, some will drain the whole hour round. I know if I play Merikie or Svella I can stall the game to time consistently and if I play Kaalia or Inga and Esika I can have a board dead in 5 turns. Guess it just depends on the deck.

[@punkypinko2965]

In my experience, games become too long when people wipe the board with no follow up plan to win in a few turns. I hate when the board is just reset and the game basically starts over. I don't wipe the board unless it gives me an advantage, not just to keep someone else from winning. I got nothing, they can win, so we can start a new game.

[@adamhenwood1114]

I would literally always wipe the board, especially if someone was about to win. I get your point, but strictly speaking the correct thing to do is to board wipe.

[@Thoughtmage100]

Statistically speaking, preventing someone from winning the game allows you more opportunity to win the game. You might not have the win in your hand the moment you cast the board wipe, but what about one or two turns after? Does your deck have wincons you can draw into? I don't want to sound like some meta try hard spike player, but this line of thinking just feels like giving up before it's necessary.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

That’s literally why commander clash is so long 😂

[@punkypinko2965]

@@adamhenwood1114 Hello. Yeah, true. But I try to use one sided board wipes. Also, I'm playing casual. It's not like I have to win, like say, if I were in a tournament. To me it just feels lame to wipe the board then do nothing else really and pass. But to each their own. Personally, I don't like games that go two hours. Edit: sorry, I didn't mean to call you lame, bad choice of words :) I'll say it like this: to me it feels bad.

[@punkypinko2965]

@@Thoughtmage100 I agree. I've seen too many long games though where no one had a way to clearly the win game and people just keep board wiping and it's boring. Now, if you have a way to win after wiping the board or you'll reasonably get one in a few turns, sure. Personally, I wait until I've got something to do before I wipe. If the other person wins, that's ok with me. They won. They outplayed us. I didn't have a way to win at the moment and they did, so that's cool.

[@hreiarevarsson7900]

Commander clash games are definately a lot longer than commander games in general. I feel like the median game length in a 4 person pod at my lgs is like 50 minutes. Most games in the 30min-1h30min range. And maybe its a moto thing, but turns take a lot faster at my lgs.

[@GT-li8wg]

I'm actually surprised they forgot the One Ring in that argument for their being the same level of interaction.

[@KingQuetzal]

Game length is 100% determined by player skill, card knowledge, and deck piloting experience. I have a storm-like deck I have played 100+ times and average about 3 minutes per turn. Usually the slowest part is having to read all my opponents new cards. It's similar to the reason people hate MLD; they take 10 minute turns with 1 mana, the turns should be shorter.

[@RibusPQR]

Spatial Binding can prevent things from phasing out, and Time And Tide makes all creatures phase in.

[@jackl8025]

Seems pretty niche. I'd rather play a Negate

[@peggle09]

My friends and I use a 4 way 15 min chess timer. For fast games we use 10 min. If your time runs out your out.

[@MichelPlanteBrand]

this conversation game me an idea, how about using a chess clock for turns like a MTGA rope. maybe the 1h mark will be met more regularly.

[@SWNJim]

I find that if people are acting with their own self interest in mind and with intention, then the games flow better, even if they end up going longer. I agree with Crim, if someone on turn 6 left themselves open, take them out. That’s one less person per turn rotation. A big problem that I’ve always harped on is what I call the Reliquary Tower effect. Everyone has wants to have all of their options, but they can never keep a priority of what they want to use. In some ways it does cross over with everyone having draw because it creates more choice, which causes more choice paralysis.

[@ATADSP]

I think anywhere between 1 and 2 hours is fine. Also part of the issue with commander clash is fighting through mtgo which adds a lot of latency with each action.

[@thechamp0119]

True. A table game turn one and two would be over in potentially 60 seconds but it’s a few minutes on mtgo

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

True MTGO adds lost time, but the uploads are edited and this kind of stuff is edited out, luckily. Props the editor! (btw niuttuc is editing clash and tomer is editing podcasts? Or both share either?)

[@jgicantfindaname]

I've seen people say everybody lives is worse angels grace but I don't quite think so. Its stops life loss so no one can just put you to one and ping you. It protects the board if you are in a dominant position. It stops thoracle consult which tef can't do. Its so versitile because it can kinda do what both cards do depending on the situation.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

I would always prefer Teferi’s Protection as if someone board wipes, it can win you the game by protecting only your board state (where Everybody Lives at best blocks creature board wipes (it doesn’t protect your other permanents, does not block exile board wipes, doesn’t block blue board wipes like Cyclonic Rift etc.). Everybody Lives is just a more niche Teferi’s Protection.

[@jgicantfindaname]

@@Dragon_Fyre That also stops thoracle / consult. It's good because it modal. It can do both. But yes, it is worth against specifically board wipes.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@jgicantfindaname It can stop thoracle / consult, but more often then not, those decks have free cast counter spells, so I don’t think it reliably stops them.

[@jgicantfindaname]

@@Dragon_Fyre Almost every card can be countered. Of course if they're pocketing pact of negation and fow your out of luck. That doesn't make the card bad. Someone can counter teferis prot, does that make it unplayable?

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@jgicantfindaname First, you seem to be reading between the lines to see imaginary comments. Never said it was bad, just that it is for the most part a more niche Teferi’s Protection. If you want both spells, great, but otherwise I would pick one over the other. Second, while almost everything can be countered that was not really the point; there are two ways that Thoracle tends to be used. They effectively draw their entire deck or they mill their entire deck. For the draw, it’s not a maybe they have a counter spell. It’s nearly a given. For the mill, by its existence, Everybody Lives will make them more cautious versus a white player to have that mana open with a counter spell. That doesn’t make the spell bad but it does significantly limit the effectiveness if that’s why you are including it.

[@jakeburger2137]

Super late comment- Warping Wail can counter farewell in mono red/green/black or any combination thereof. Along with quite a few other annoying sorceries. Plus its modal in case you need to exile an esper sentinel or some other irritating 1 power or toughness creature.

[@Maccabeus87]

I think any combos of 3 or more cards with a mana value of 8 or more is not only acceptable in casual commander, but necessary in order ot keep the games from being ridiculously long. Short games mean more games, and I think a great Rule 0 is to simply say, "Once you've won with a deck, it's retired for the night." This precludes one player from dominating with a given deck if it's too powerful for the rest of the table.

[@chandlercook8714]

Crim countering Jeremy Noells craterhoof with counter balance / Ondu inversion at MC Philly lives rent free an my head.. but that seemed like a quick-ish game even tho aminatu flickering out of time was hilarious

[@thriftypsgr]

I find myself running grasp of fate and expel the interlopers more than farewell

[@RPGFanboy14]

Whats funny is Farewell has existed for years now and hasn't really been an issue to ever talk about, its Merciless Eviction. The thing that makes Farewell so much more prevalent and a potential issue, besides having an easier color identity, is the fact that you can just pick every mode on the card and that it hits Graveyards. With ME theres an actual choice to be made while with Farewell its just: Meh wipe everythng. Which is what really makes it so powerful. Its like if Cryptic command let you pick every mode for it. It would be insane.

[@Steeks]

Isn't everything comes to dust close to a one sided farewell? Ye it hits your rocks but as richard has shown a good manabase and catchup ramp allows white to be only second to green in land ramp.

[@Dynme]

56:25 Not sure why the hate on things entering simultaneously. It's the best way to run Cathars' Crusade, imo. Instead of running Mardu Ascendancy and making one token at a time, play Rabble Rousing and make them in chunks.

[@andrueurbane7361]

Depends on the game. If everyone is doing things and the perceived leader is switching, those long games I love. I am fine with games that last from around 1 to 2 hrs on average. I played one game that lasted 5+ hrs with 11 board wipes. That was too long even though I won in the end.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

On the too many triggers argument, I think the issue is people don’t know how to resolve their triggers quickly not individual cards like esper sentinel or rhystic study

[@Gattsu65]

Yeah, I'm playing in a $75 budget edh league and I have a 3 card combo with one of the 3 being my commander and tutors being punished in the league (we are going for points and you get more if you don't tutor) so I have 1 themed tutor and people get salty over me winning the game with it on like turn 5 if I'm lucky but it's usually like turn 8 or later

[@seoreh3138]

About combos, what i feel bad to play against is when the deck is "a combo deck". Like its only or main way to win is the combo, playing many tutors to find combo pieces, stalling the game until it can combo off. But when it's a incident combo or a backup win condition, I don't realy mind.

[@BrootalMetalBanjo]

When our games go longer, it’s usually because there was a lot of interaction. Boards were wiped and an arch-enemy was not able to get ahead. Isn’t that the best kinda of games ?

[@JacobBos1988]

I have a Lazav deck where i can randomly kill an opponent on turn 3. I always do it, because it's very unlikely and hilarious when it happens.

[@wastelandkitten9698]

they aren't too long when I play, either I combo out early or get oooffed early.

[@ElDocBruh]

Farewell should cost WWWWWW, show some commitment if you really want the clear the board! We need cards that phase out your graveyard 😎

[@Shimatzu95]

Total agree, powerful cards should have way more colored pips, in particular (one sided/selective) boardwipes and wincons, that way there is a price/tradeoff to playing 5 color goodstuff.

[@lucascoutinho2441]

There's actually a couple of old black cards that temporarily remove cards from graveyard. If I remember it right they have a upkeep of exiling cards from your graveyard and when you can't you sacrifice the creature and they go back. Found them while brewing a Tormod deck.

[@greenr1v3r]

I choose not to build counter or shuffle commanders. Cathar's Crusade would absolutely make my mono-white deck better but I don't want to deal with it as you discussed, so I don't play it. I also love the idea of Light Paws but I don't want to be tutoring and shuffling my deck more than the occasional fetch land.

[@cowonafarmstrategy3449]

The only gripe I have with combo is a lot of the time it takes advantage of the idea that we should be nice to each other. Many games in which I lose to combo is me and my opponent being nice the the player because we think they are behind. If people were more fine with taking people out of the game then I think combo will get worse and people will start making better decks to not die.

[@Mathewu_]

I think we've gone too far with being nice(casual). If someone spend 3 or 4 turns ramping or I know the deck combos. I usually try to lower their life total down as much as possible.

[@ZawadaP]

The problem with boardwipes like Farewell is not the card, but I think the player. Sandbagging a farewell, and then rapidly deploying to be a winning state.... 10/10. Just randomly throwing out a farewell because someone is slightly ahead... or because they had it in their hand and had nothing else to do on their turn. I think that's the problem. And I'm with Crim, 9 times out of 10, the green player is going redeploy 10x faster than everyone else because they're on 12 lands on turn 6 to everyone's 5 lands.

[@kentverbeet5704]

This is why I kinda like The One Ring in Edh and how it puts a clock on the game while enabling players. the gradual but exponential nature of the card advantage I found makes edh games end at a good time as people are still able to kinda enable their game plan through some board wipes and avoid those draw and go lulls where someone is drawing everything they don’t want

[@AndrewS-vu4ji]

Everybody lives is just an advanced fog, teferis prot and one ring are the stage 2 evolution of fog. (Platinum angel type effects are the stage 3 evolution)

[@SheetsInc]

It's people taking too much time in the tank and players running low curve draw engines. One guy in my group takes 5 times everyone's turns making games 2 hours. We have a 2 min turn clock now and games are 45 min to 1:15.

[@memonk100]

The only combos i have a problem with are 2 card combos and 1 card is the commander. Other than that u got us play on.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

What about 2 card combos with several tutors ?

[@memonk100]

@@Dragon_Fyre honestly i dont care that much part of cards games is having answers or getting got. I will make a note of it and play against that deck more aggressively in the future.

[@Martin-qb2mw]

The point of commander is that I can run creatures and other stuff that is not viable in other formats right. If combo is heavily played then I have to play Crim's decks and at that point I might as well just play Standard.

[@MJBrown901]

2min per turn x 4 ppl x 8 turns =64 min.. sounds right. It does take a long time to go through everything but as long as you pay attention to draw engines that's where you can shut down opponents and end games quicker.