Is Commander Too Casual? (MagicCon: Las Vegas) | Commander Clash Podcast 114

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Since a lot of people have asked, yes, we did record a live episode of Commander Clash. Still needs to be edited, but should be going up next Friday!

[@ArtoPOE123]

Seth starting into my soul for an hour straight is definitely a vibe

[@marsrocks247]

Speaking on behalf of Crim, the one thing you can say about your average commander player is they will always ask the table to answer something they can't, and they will always complain when whatever they did was answered. Having the answer, being the board police, is a job. It is a thankless job, that often goes as punished as it goes rewarded. God bless you Crim.

[@krevin543]

Great comment. Counter spells and board resets are awesome! I’m almost never salty to see them.

[@Kestral287]

I think Crim and Tomer nailed this in the first like ten minutes. The "Hey this is where my deck is are we cool playing at that level" is perfect. And basically everything else is extraneous and often harmful.

[@adamrobinson6951]

Agreed, alongside Crim's expectation of just naming any potentially problematic cards in your deck. That's what I do with my Osgir deck - tell everyone I have Mindslaver in advance. If people react anything other than enthusiastically, it gets swapped out before the game starts. Similarly I ask whether people want to play against Slivers - some do, others don't.

[@m1gr3nA]

@@adamrobinson6951 how do you determine what could be problematic? one of friends i play with insists that counterspells are problematic. i doubt average player would think that.

[@JabeRaddle]

Rule 0 is different with a dedicated playgroup vs out in the wild. You have to understand as a player that if you have a regular group you can rule 0 whatever you want, but you cannot take those expectations to your LGS or Magic Fest. In my group we don't really like combos and we have a general understanding that combos have to be convoluted and funny for us to have fun. I can't go to an LGS and sit down with strangers and explain that I won't play with them unless their combos are 3+ cards and don't use meta cards. That's not fair to anyone. My understanding of Rule 0 in the wild is that you discuss if your decks are a good matchup for a fun game and if they're not you play different decks or find a different group. Not litigating what kinds of effects you don't like.

[@danhick3150]

Yeah, I completely agree with this. I just wish the format was better regulated for for pickup games rather than having the argument of "rule 0" as the do all end all of balancing.

[@jameelkurabi]

It generally is. Either everyone just buy a precon or have one prepared. Most are similarly tuned. Obviously there are exceptions and the more recent ones are better than old. But it still works out okay.@@danhick3150

[@bryanleblanc5648]

so true. It's the difference between "oh, the deck I brought has infinite combos -- I will go find a stronger table" and "hey, we house-banned a bunch of strong cards but what about the skullclamp in your Isshin deck, do you really need that?" "Yeah true, it's probably stronger than any other card in the pod now... I can swap that out for a different draw card that triggers off of attacks" "Thanks"

[@YBladeY]

100%

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Okay but at what point do strangers becomes close enough to be allowed those expectations? And what about people who don't have limitless money to spend on new decks or to drive around looking for an LGS? Rule zero is different but there is no universally agreed-upon baseline to bring to strangers. You just have to be decent. And sometimes that's understanding people at a convention don't want to spend all day playing a game or all day looking for one because they all ended too quickly. I think you need to be honest with what you are providing and your expectations and the more specific an experience you want the more okay you have to be with finding other people.

[@cameton_youtube]

A lot of these questions revolve around 1) how do I prepare for the meta I'm playing into and 2) is that a meta I *want* to play into

[@bardhoag]

Imagine being in a hotel room, having no idea about this game and you hear a podcast next door xD

[@andyspendlove1019]

If a hotel in Vegas’s walls are that thin, overhearing a conversation about Magic is the least of your worries 😂

[@diogomoraes6790]

That kinda describes the standard commander rule zero player… think they would be fine.

[@Zowimir]

lmao

[@gareth542]

What Seth was saying about hidden rules really spoke to me. Ive only recently got into commander more (coming from competitive constructed). I have had some really negative experiences where people felt I behaved inappropriately or broke some sort of gentlemens agreement type thing, not just the cards I play, but also attacking people. It really sucks.

[@mrp4trick477]

This just sounds like the most toxic playgroup ever. It’s a pvp game just play ur deck and if u finish someone and the game ends quicker then everybody also has a chance to do something nice, at least when ur deck isn’t like superfast kill everyone combo

[@CaptainKraw]

Man, great discussion! My take has always been that commander is a social format more than a casual one. The social interaction definitely makes it a bit more casual, but like Crim said, there has to be a winner. Three players are going to lose, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[@daviddupler3761]

There definitely does not need to be a winner. Forcing a draw, while a moral win, is not a technical win. It is a very funny strategy though

[@thejimmytrain1485]

Love it. Anytime the guys can hangout is a good time 😊

[@alfred8936]

The problem always comes down to people being horrible at using their better judgement when it comes to creating a good play experience for the table. Sometimes Rule Zero almost feels like a cryptic resident evil puzzle to figure out whether or not you're going to have a straight up non-game toward either end of the competitive spectrum lol. I just wish more people introspected even slightly during deckbuilding and gameplay instead of putting the onus entirely on complete strangers. I summarize my philosophy to my friends like this: "the *objective* of the game is to win, but the *point of playing the game* is to have fun. And the way you have fun is found in how you choose to pursue (or disregard) the objective."

[@jturn314]

The entire problem with EDH power level boils down to this interaction I had a couple years ago- A guy casually played a Back to Basics in a casual pod and didn’t think it was weird at all, and absolutely lost his mind later in that very same game when I played Villainous Wealth, and then when I got it back and played it again he scooped and started saying that it’s such a toxic card and should be banned while walking out of the store…

[@Ian_Dierks]

Perfect example. Another one based off yours would be that player getting mad when someone removes his Back to Basics. "That's unfair!"

[@ChrisDavis-tt1dj]

That guy sounds lame. You have to embrace the hate when playing Stax.

[@jturn314]

@@ChrisDavis-tt1dj Thats the worst part… He wasn’t playing stax…. He was playing a precon that he had upgraded a bit and just casually put Back to Basics in! He honestly didn’t realize that it’s an actually salty card. I mean I don’t care about BtB, because I play answers, but that’s the problem with power level, the masses just have no idea that BtB is actually a powerful card and Villainous Wealth is a perfectly casual card that scales with the power of the table…

[@ChrisDavis-tt1dj]

@@jturn314 I think Back to Basics is usually ok. It lets a deck with a cheap mana base complete with higher power decks. If a deck has an optimized land base and no removal. It is on the player that got locked out of mana to re-evaluate their deck building.

[@oafkad]

My problem with casual commander is that people want the power of CEDH but interaction of casual play.

[@Maccabeus87]

Playing "not to win" in a game in which there is always a clear winner is a true paradox. Most Rule 0 conversations boil down to, "I don't like these cards or strategies because they don't let me win with my cards/strategies." IMO strategies that shut down other strategies are not there to say, "You can't have fun" but to say, "You can't win that way." In the end, "fun" in a game where there is always a winner means winning.

[@ginov.7039]

💯 someone had to say it thank you

[@bbbeware]

it's so cool to see you guys in this format

[@DaveTheNoob]

Things that make Commander games fun to watch: 1) politics 2) interaction 3) Banter between players 4) Players maneuvering "hurdles" in their gameplan 5) Finding wincons using 1-4 Things people complain about in Commander.... See 1 through 5.

[@ginov.7039]

In my opinion complaining is what the format has become. I say shuffle up and play thankfully I have a playgroup

[@thriftypsgr]

This has been my favorite episode of this channel ever! Why? Because these are the things that my kitchen table pod talk about all the time. We allow any card that is not banned. If one player is winning too much then we swap out decks lol

[@olivergalitch5584]

Yes! If a deck pisses you off because it was too rough for you, don't blame the player. You still got to see a great strat unfold. but you can ask for a break from that deck. No hard feeling if someone says "I'm not in the mood for your Jodah today"

[@crawdaddy1234]

7:11 YES! CRIM, YES! “Rule Zero has become ‘I don’t like it, so I don’t want to play against it.’”

[@AgentMurphy286]

My group has a guy that won’t play against counterspell. So I switched to redirects. Now he’s afraid to play targeted removal against me. I think too many commander players feel self entitled to pulling off their deck’s gimmick in the face of other players.

[@zacharia4061]

Vegas are litterally your guys best content, 10/10

[@accendidap5791]

The mulligan rule that we use in our play group that works really well for casual settings gives a free one each time instead of only the first 7, so it goes: 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, etc instead of 7, 7, 6, 5, etc This way it does not feel as punishing and you get to see at least 5 hands before you are put in the spot where you "have to" keep your hand or go to 4. And it does still make mulliganing feel relevant and rewards good deck building, but does not desolve down to just grab whatever 7 cards you want. So it avoids feelbads for all players. (While we sometimes still encounter expection cases, that number has drasticly lowered)

[@ketchumall8243]

When Tomer said " isn't just an exexcuses to show off all my shiny cards I spent too much money on?" I felt that cause I try so hard to activate the world tree in my Theros Gods deck exclusively so i can slam all my secret lair foils onto the board at once. One friend always just wants to scoop and get on to the next game, but I just wanna finish searching out my Gods

[@dominicmetzger3246]

I’m not so sure the commander players who are aggressive about rule 0 really value the “puzzle solving” aspect of mtg. It definitely feels different playing with people who are experienced mtg players that understand the game vs those that just play solitaire and can’t handle interruption.

[@ginov.7039]

a perfectly articulated comment, illustrating my experiences as well

[@canamrock]

Richard's final point is such a big thing, and I think there could be room for a small number of more formalized Commander subformats. We already have two with CEDH and the rest of the format, but it's a lot of social norms trying to suss out the range of options in the format currently.

[@LogoMotive11]

Pre-edh is already kind of a sub format and a cool variant way to play the game

[@canamrock]

@@LogoMotive11 There are also alternative formats like Conquest and loosely Oathbreaker. Not quite the same as my thought though.

[@I_JND_I]

In our group there is no rule 0, we just want to see cool shit, if u found a cool combo on accident or on purpose and/or your deck does what you built it todo then cool.

[@tribalmattersmtg5532]

Really good conversation with lots of genuine and well thought out ideas from across the team. Great video. IMO Phil’s idea of “allow everyone to pop off” is what is hurting magic in some aspects. Garfield’s original sets were full of blood moons, discard, counterspells and creatures with downsides. The reason spreading seas is banned on Arena, and no FIRE blood moon has been printed, ever, is Phil’s mentality played out to conclusion. I agree with Asian Avenger that some responsibility needs to be on the opponent of stax to build their decks to have more resilience - this actually helps out everyone because decks slow down a bit, become more interactive and less linear. That helps weaker strategies have a chance too.

[@thriftypsgr]

I built a Hylda (Elsa) deck and it is my absolute favorite because it is really fun to pilot. My main deck that is what I use to win packs at my LGS has become boring to play because it is just get the two cars combo, protect it, and win on turn 4/5. I rarely play it anymore. Casual decks around the turn 7-11 win are more fun to me now.

[@thriftypsgr]

I hope this make sense lol

[@ryantomczak2248]

I find that rule zero works great in your own playgroup, but not much outside of that. Case in point, at my LGS several pods fire on a nightly basis and most are casual games. Unfortunately casual covers a wide range of power levels and archetypes. When players at my LGS mention a casual I always opt out now, because when asked what they mean by casual they can never tell me. I like to play combo decks that can win out of nowhere. Doesn’t necessarily mean cEDH or even high powered, but that is how people see it. I do not want to stomp people so I have decided only to play cEDH at my LGS, because with cEDH there is never a question of power level.

[@ichliebebrot3773]

I want to play a multiplayer game when I play Commander. Too many players are taking rule 0 too far. If I wanted to play a single player game, I’d go play Baldur’s Gate 3 (great game, btw!).

[@ElDocBruh]

Crim at first looking like he's being held at gunpoint 😂 "Do the podcast and nobody gets hurt!"

[@biggreenscott]

The question of whether or not a typical Commander player should have to put answers in their deck for strategies that wreck them has another layer I don't think you all touched on. The argument is "are they going to go listen to a podcast or watch a video to learn how to deal with it?" My argument is that they should. I've played for decades, and I've had to grow and evolve with all the ways Magic has changed throughout time. There's certainly nuance either way, but training newer players that we're just going to not do a thing because it hurts their strategy, perpetuates the idea that you're also not responsible for how good of a time you have playing Magic. The weight of whether or not a player has a good time should not be placed on their opponents shoulders.

[@ginov.7039]

💯

[@noahfriedrich4686]

Here's my issue with rule zero: It disproportionally disadvantages newer players/ players with smaller collections. If I sit down looking to play Myrkul or Tergrid and someone says nope, that's alright because I have other options. But someone who dusts off their 2019 unedited precon and owns no other cards and is told "no fast mana" (i.e. Dockside Extortionist), then what should they do? The last thing I want is someone to tell me to take the most glitzy card, and if I was a new player who got told I couldn't play a certain card (Looking at you, RC, for taking Emrakul away from my 15-yo self), I might just not even bother.

[@dylanbersano9488]

I have such a crim mindset it’s crazy. I believe everyone should play whatever they want (as long as it’s not on the ban list) for numerous reasons. 1. Magic decks are becoming increasingly more expensive, last thing I want is someone paying 2000$ for their commander deck playing all of their favorite cards (expensive decks doesn’t mean it’s CEDH) then that person sits at a table and they immediately get rule zero’d out of everyone’s pod. 2. Who am I to dictate how people play? I started in modern, moved to legacy and sometimes play commander. Those two formats are filled with people who hate control however I love playing control does that person get to say oh you can’t play that, no. Everyone has different playstyles and that’s what most people forget. My only commander deck for a long time was Oko, because I just absolutely love the card and he’s banned everywhere besides commander/vintage but the amount of times I was forced out of a pod just because “oko is to strong” was horrendous and it caused me to almost drop commander. 3. Like you guys have mentioned before everyone wants to pop off but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have answers incase they do something. Don’t like counterspells? There’s numerous things now that say “can’t be countered”. Don’t like ramp play counterspells/ that one card that says if an additional land enters the battlefield return it to its owners hand. There are numerous ways in this game to stop what you don’t like going against, people just don’t feel like playing those cards.

[@ginov.7039]

💯 friend you would definitely be welcome in our playgroup. It's been difficult finding players with a similar or same mindset. Finally I think we have a solid group of four to five.

[@kkhello823]

A game of commander only ends when someone wins. For one person to win there has to be 3 losers. There is no casual extra turn deck. (a deck dedicated to extra turns not a card that just so happens to give you one) You have to understand the power of your deck what it’s capable of and rule 0 discussion to decide if it’s the right deck to play. I’m with Crim on most points. He didn’t say this but I feel there has to be a point when it becomes “get good”. You want to be in this game go to a LGS or a magic con meet up with people to play. You have to take the time to learn the game and learn how to play it. It doesn’t have to become this all encompassing hobby where you follow all the trends, or it becomes 80% of the content you consume. But you have to put in a little more work than one night every few weeks. If that is the only effort you put into it don’t be salty when somebody is better than you or knows more than you. Magic is a hard game it’s complicated and the deeper you get into it the more difficult it can get. I’m not a sweaty player but I enjoy sweaty games as much as casual games. But all these games have a thing in common. That they have to end at some point. Growing as a player might mean for you to understand that if someone says during pregame discussions I win through combo be that 2 card efficient combos or 5 card jank combos. Playing and holding your interaction for when you feel like they are about to go off is the correct move. There is also a lot of talk about what to and not to play. But what if stax is my fun or sweaty games that get the heart pounding are the games I want to play if I only go out once a week. Should we allow to discussion to devolve to a the point that says they are unfun and we should never see them. It’s supposed to be a rule 0 decision about power level and what we want to get out of this game. Not I don’t want to see this style deck ever in all my games. Y’all had a salt week and found it to be a fun game. Sure every game shouldn’t be like that. Once in a while??? Yall had a great time with it. It feels like y’all are perpetuating the argument that people don’t want to see these decks and that stunts a players growth. Convinces them that they don’t want to see them and that’s how you end up with crazy MTGO lobbies. I really think the answer is get good sometimes. Stax or combos shouldn’t be every game but those games have merit and you need to play them to grow as a player. Rule 0 talk about your decks match each others power level then shuffle up and play.

[@SupremeDirt]

i''ve got to say, rule 0 as someone who only really plays EDH these days with friends and the occasional pod that's happening at a store while i'm playing some other card game, i've only really truly liked it on basis of controlling power level and allowing stuff like silver border. i'll definitely say though, i deeply wish some of the more serious stuff pushed more into 60 card multiplayer than just edh. i think there's a lot of merit in stronger 60 card multiplayer that sadly doesn't get visited much because of the laser focus on EDH.

[@Maccabeus87]

An excellent point by Crim--if we want this to be truly casual, a cooperative style of Magic--all players vs a non-player entity of some kind--would be optimal. That would build community and working together to solve problems.

[@andrewgolubiewski3463]

Every time I see Seth with the gang I'm surprised at how small he is. When he's in his own camera frame he's just larger than life.

[@starmanda88]

Seth is not small. He’s sitting down. IIRC he’s like 6 foot 5 or something like that.

[@LouisKing995]

@@starmanda88I think he may have been joking since Seath looks huge here, and in the normal podcast he’s usually just a head lol

[@austinmairet1772]

What Seth was saying around 49:45 is exactly how I got into commander. I built a Kaalia of the Vast deck with Armageddon and the very first game with strangers at my LGS I armageddoned with a Kaalia in play. The whole table picked up their cards and one guy said, "if you're playing Armageddon we won't play with you". I still have that Kaalia deck lol.

[@falconje11]

I think that is absolutely on the people you sat down with. An issue I take with this, is, they are talking about rule 0, but then acting like all these things like "don't play Armageddon" go without saying. It isn't a rule, it doesn't go without saying if it is true in that playgroup. If the people you sat down with have that hard of a line on a legal card, especially if they knew you hadn't played there before, it was on them to tell you (unless there was some huge miscommunication on relative deck strength). Also, that's hardly the most cracked thing a Kaalia deck can do (sounds like your deck is awesome).

[@pdxholmes]

I would've said "fine" and never play with those people again. It's one thing to have that conversation pre-game, "Hey, we really don't like Armageddon, can you swap it for another card?", but mid-game? That's the worst kind of rule 0 behavior and those people aren't worth playing with.

[@InOzWeTrust]

The Rule 0 conversation I see most often is: My commander is going to be this silver boarded card, this 2 card non partner pair, or some other violation of the social contract in basic deck construction and NO ONE will be permitted to object because Rule 0 says "I can change the rules however I want."

[@joshuadoring8050]

I feel like the internet ruined commander in a lot of ways. Magic has become a game about making people feel good rather than fostering competitive spirit or something similar. I can’t believe these conversations are so common. Just eliminate the player and they can get up and go find another game. It’s so weird.

[@ginov.7039]

Just like everything else it's all about how people "feel" and nothing else.

[@colboy1fish]

58:16 I remember a game where one of the players at my casual lgs announched he was going to take extra turns. He was taking a while. The person opposite then grabbed some dice and rolled them. Grabbed a few of them and then rolled them again. They asked me if I knew how to play yathzee. I said yes. So we played some yathzee while this one player took like 10 ish minutes taking his turns. Honestly if I realize one of the players at the table is running extra turns I might just get up and leave because its such a snoozefest to play against.

[@nathanw4692]

I think this is true of any combo that takes a while to resolve and doesnt win on the spot. Stop playing those decks.

[@thehitchhikingchef]

Let out an audible scream of excitement when i saw Brewer's Kitchen

[@tianruixiao9239]

Is there going to be a live clash episode? I always hope for this since the early days when you guys went to gp Vegas. Great to see everyone together ❤️

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

There's a lot more to filming a commander game than just pointing a camera at the table. It would be a crazy amount of work but it would definitely be cool to see a live game from the crew.

[@paulpallo5513]

@@SmashCentralOfficial Crim, Richard and Seth did it once a LONGGGG time ago.

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Yep!

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

@@paulpallo5513 I'm sure they have, and I'm sure it was a lot of work haha.

[@ThexSlothxKing]

100% agree with crim. Play what you want.

[@c.jhamblin5759]

This wildley and completely unrelated: how are literally ALL of the goldfish guys gorgeous

[@zweis]

Phil coming in with the common sense "They're your opponent" 😂😂 Like I'm all for having fun, but if someone is out of control player removal is the best form of removal. And honestly if the other 3 players have to focus you, it means you're doing something right

[@zacharymccutcheon8607]

@tomer, imagine this. Player only gets to play 1 game a week. Player has not won a game for the past 7 weeks. Player finally has a win (Approach of the second sun). Player finally casts and has win on the stack. Player gets counterspelled. only counterspell of the night. I can imagine that player being "done." "I'm just trying to do my thing." "why did you have to target me when X was going to win next turn." "Counterspells are dumb/not fun." etc. It's all about perspective.

[@Civera89]

Ohh no? They should have found a better time to cast their winning spell and not into open mana. That’s just bad play. You can have a competitive game, lose, and still have fun.

[@zacharymccutcheon8607]

Hi @@Civera89, thank you for responding. :) I see your point that, from a competitive perspective, players should consider things like "open mana," "is the commander in play, enabling a free counter," or "How likely is it that this player has force?" These are all valid, and competitive thoughts. However, I'm trying to answer the question of "why would people be salty over a single counterspell?" For people who view commander as a casual format where everyone has an opportunity to "do their thing," a single counterspell can be emotionally devestating, especially in situations similar to what I described above. Does that additional perspective help explain why some people don't like counterspells, even if there's only one of them?

[@misterfox6094]

In that scenario it's less about the counter spell and more about them not having won a game in 7 weeks. Now if they lost every game to a single counter spell, that's different. (I would probly tell them to play more wincons than just approach 😅)

[@Suhrvivor]

Countering a winning spell like Approach of the Second Sun is always acceptable. You can possibly be salty about that.

[@mrsilverbutton7786]

This was such a great video if just to have everyone in the same room!

[@DE3rules]

Guys, the quality of this was so much better than your last hotel podcast. Thank you for upping the audio. I almost didn’t even listen because I was so turned off from the last hotel room video.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Richard calls it sweaty because he prefers other people to use deck slots for interaction while everyone ignores him and he wins games. If you don't want to interact on your opponent's turn, you can always play Pokemon TCG.

[@Balderdashes]

One of my earliest LGS Commander experiences was playing a deck that was mostly random uncommons + the Venser half of a duel deck that had just released. I had a Cache Raiders in play, and played an Archaeomancer, returning Time Warp to my hand, effectively going infinite on roughly turn ~11 mostly by accident. The owner of the LGS handed me a 10 page "Houserule" document where somewhere in the mire of other insane rules, it turned out taking 3 turns in a row meant I auto lost the game. I didn't go back, but it was definitely a reminder that the MTGO people exist in more than just the online space.

[@andreasmueller337]

Love to see the crew in one room! Regarding combo: If I am not totally off, EDH started as a game for judges also to experience fringe rule Interactions. In other words: Combo was the defining founding purpose of the Format

[@greg6538]

Tomer: "There's no reason to take someone out early" Phil: "THEY ARE YOUR OPPONENT!!!!" 😤😤😤😤😤

[@petrri323]

There's a difference between having a Rule 0 type conversation before a game and getting butthurt over someone playing a certain card/archetype. That "hey what are you playing" convo happens with casual/pickup 60 card format games as well. We just understand that it's a multiplayer game, where everyone is trying to win but only one person can. So at some point, things might not go my way, and I may even lose early on and have to watch. It's an occupational hazard of playing a CCG. I miss the old-school YuGiOh attitude of "winner takes all, take no prisoners." Back then setbacks like a stax effect or a big threat was met with, "oh yeah? well in that case I play..." not a groan and some eye-rolls, and certainly not chickening out and saying, "hey can you please not play that one specific card again, you can play the same deck but I just want you to change that one thing or I'll be really upset and I won't play with you anymore."

[@thriftypsgr]

I hate getting my spells countered but I love doing it to other people 😂 counterspells can stay

[@thatepicwizardguy]

im gonna watch the whole thing but the easy answer is: no. commander is not too casual. (ppl gotta stop gettin mad about other ppl using game mechanics like stacks, counters, board wipes, etc though lol) EDIT: I'll add just as an aside... not everybody has a bunch of decks to swap to for these rule 0 talks so they might want a very specific thing or can't actually accommodate somebody elses demand for something to not be included.

[@drewjones2485]

Man, I think all this can be distilled down to two basic priorities. Do you prioritize your experience or the group’s experience? Whichever is more important to you will guide both the deck building process and gameplay. Neither is wrong or right; it’s simply a matter of where one person finds enjoyment versus another.

[@MaxMckayful]

The thing I find interesting in EDH is that it reveals hard questions and truths about human compromise, preferences, and the hardship of what to do when expectations and desires don't line up perfectly. And shows how poor society has equipped most all of us to not be able to work through and handle these issue skillfully in ways that resolve conflict for all (instead of one or more people retreating in anger)

[@ginov.7039]

Perfectly articulated microcosm of our society.

[@MattWilliams747]

This has been my favorite episode by far! seeing the crews banter and in person interactions was gold! Thanks for muscling through the heat to put this together! Awesome job guys! PS Casual is fun, CEDH is fun and getting countered every play is fun, Armageddon on the entire table is chefs kiss. If you don’t like the power levels, find a different play setting. I started out playing precons against true CEDH decks, I never gave up and now I’m a better player for it. I agree with Crim who also seems to be a glutton for punishment like myself. Git Gud, or find friends with lower level decks.

[@TristanB4]

Yo, I was very excited to see this topic as it's something that has really been difficult for me with commander. To make a long story short, I'm just a spikier player who comes from Modern / Standard and I like to play Dimir. The amount of stuff I run into that's literally just like weird anger about the cards I like to play is so frustrating and annoying. I'm not an a-hole player - I'm polite and inclusive to everyone and I even make an effort to build up my opponents when they do things. But god forbid I Aetherize someone's lethal attack or cast 2 counterspells on them in a game. I've had players literally just scoop on the spot and storm off. People are emotionally immature and the policing of the commander format by casual players has become a little bit ridiculous, imo. Rather than think critically about their deckbuilding or bring answers to the table, there are a lot of players now who will just go "what you're doing is BS because it stops my deck's plan" and make you the problem because essentially, you weren't a training dummy for them to beat on. I'm not like, making this up in my head either- I wish I was, but its *an attitude* I've seen many times. I wish these people would stop and think about how in actuality their aggressive gatekeeping based on playstyles is excluding people from the format and making them feel unwelcome.

[@MaxMckayful]

Aren't you gatekeeping the other way though demanding they "bring answers to the table"? Which is not, to make it clear, saying that your playstyle is inherently bad. It's just not the game style others want to play. Both of them demanding they play your way, and you demanding they play there way, gets problematic. Also though, it does suck when you can't find people to play your preferred style and that's valid.

[@ginov.7039]

This is a societal attitude and contagion. More and more people in society are emotionally immature and lack critical thinking. It's just infiltrating the game that we love.

[@williamloiterton455]

I love the improvement to audio from last year, good work!

[@mtgayrek]

Also I just love seeing the whole group in one room, you are all awesome

[@ChrisDavis-tt1dj]

It really boils down to answering one question. Is this my regular play group? If yes, anything goes. If I play with a new group, I feel it out. You can usually tell by turn two or three if you need to hold back or go for the throat.

[@shayneweyker]

It's important to distinguish expensive strong free counterspells (FoW, FoN, fierce guardianship) from other counterspells. The former are less fun to face for players with low power decks. Same for combos that can only be stopped a particular way like counterspells or graveyard hate. Tomer's point about big difference in the card/mana efficiency of wincons causing salt is good too.

[@kaszael]

You could try something like Can Highlander where there are points attributed to some cards and then build decks with a max amount of these points. For example, you could have each of the crew submit a list of the 50 strongest/saltiest cards according to them with a value of 1 to ? points, compare lists (as there will be many that will be on more than one list) and aggregate into a final points list for the season and then have players build decks each week with a certain point threshold. Keep most games at 10 points, maybe, and have a "2 points week" somewhere in there, or a "20 points week" for higher powered yet not no-limit builds?

[@kaytokat]

You guys are all great, I can sense the love and the tension, there are points to all sides, it all comes down to communication if your play group treats you differently for your gaming preference than perhaps it’s not the right day or at some point not the right group. Acceptance and enjoyment, it’s all about fun and people aren’t just sitting down to win, sitting down to connect. However competition can be fun, I think the goal here overall is to help ourselves and each other grow. Great video, much love appreciate your work!💜

[@Comptonymous]

It’s really just about defining the purpose of why we’re all together. Do you want to win or do your decks thing? Do you want to just have fun? Same thing we’ve done with games like Mario Party or other multiplayer casual games. It’s not casual if you only play to win.

[@diogomoraes6790]

Rule zero and casuals are the worse. It’s really getting out of hand, specially at online Wild West. Much of it could be deemed the general lack of understanding of how the cards and the game are designed.

[@jimbojones2211]

"It seems like it works fine." Richard: "BUT what about this insane niche situation?" "Well I guess." Strawman after strawman after strawman. I play all over the US all the time, and it's never been a problem. It's just people talking about situations that they're making up to talk about how rule 0 doesn't work, no actual examples of things they've seen themselves in real life.

[@matthewollar9842]

Crim is my spirit podcaster

[@xnevyn5578]

I understand that it is very common to dislike counterspells and have felt bummed by them myself... just like any other removal spell. That's the thing people sometimes need to be reminded of, counterspells are just removal like Doom Blade. Counterspells can actually be worse removal because of the timing restriction. You have one moment to counter a spell, you need that card in hand beforehand and commit to not using that mana for a turn cycle in anticipation. Whereas a kill spell can be used any moment over multiple turns and can be drawn anytime after the target has been on board. Honestly, depending on a deck build (and pod play style) counterspells can be viewed as bad removal, especially in a multiplayer format with counterspells being one-for-one removal.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That's why discard spells are infinitely worse. They're objectively more powerful counterspells. And tend to be more than just 1 for 1s on top of that.

[@olafwulfgarson1224]

@Counterspells I don't get the hate at all. Why are counterspells not ok because they ruin your gameplan and wincons, but removal and boardwipes (which also ruin your game plan and wincons) are ok? If spellslinger player can destroy/exile/boardwipe all your creatures (wincons), shouldn't you be able to destroy spellslinger's instant and sorcery wincons? Otherwise, everyone would just play spellslingers and noncreature wincons which cannot be dealt with removal spells. Counterspell is just a very intuitive mechanic, like a punch and a block.

[@ryanschaaf9652]

rule 0 should be like this. are you playing a cedh deck? if everyone says yes, then you play cedh. if not, then pick your deck and play it. If you can't plan for things that stop your deck right in it's track, then you built a bad deck. part of commander is updating your deck all the time. if you get wrecked by a single card, now you know a weakness of your deck. fix it for the future.

[@almogdov]

This discussion made me happy that we have a pretty stable play group, we know what each other plays, how to deal and even when we grief its in good humor. Sure, someone (usually me) might be the arch enemy but we know why and its fine xD

[@happybrain2674]

crim just brought the idea of "horde" basically a selfplaying deck vs players btw thats a really cool way to play commander esp with new people, you guys should try it out :D

[@jaywinner328]

A cooperative game mode sounds like a good solution for people further on the casual side.

[@andrewharrison5801]

Loving the Daniel Johnston shirt!

[@RafaelPanazzo]

I’ll die on this hill: cEDH is the only way to play this format where all 4 players come in and come out happy. Period. Casual pick up games will always have this feels bad feelings.

[@dentlike]

I watch your Commander Clash and Seth's Arena videos since I found your channel thanks to the awesome Brewer's Kitchen videos. But this is the first time I actually "watch" your Podcast. Mainly because of the title and that you are all together. I must admit it is really a great conversation about different experiences, opinions and styles and helped me a lot to better understand my opponents or even confirming my own view is not too subjective. It's obviously different when you create content, as you also need to think about the viewer's experience. Personally I enjoy games where, like Phil said, everybody can somehow do their thing.... as long as I win 😬😄 Thanks a lot guys and have fun together! Looking forward to your next videos.

[@Spirited_skiing]

Great episode! Cool to see the crew hanging out in person!

[@matthewjennings7645]

Rule 0 should exist, but it has become a cop out to actually managing the game well

[@ginov.7039]

Yes a cop-out to crying complaining about strategies and cards you don't like.

[@WarriorFromV4LH4LL4]

Very nice upgrades to sound from last year!

[@TheMadTipper]

Its a little weird to me that Crim is like "well winter orb is an obvious no go" but then doesn't think that is fair to apply to a lot of other things. With the logic he uses all the decks should be able to pack single target artifact removal that is cheap enough to destroy destroy the orb after 1 or two turns to untap. Its just not fun to warp your deck around that, but for whatever reason he won't expect this for other cards

[@efnfen]

You should never expect him to be consistent or make good faith arguments

[@jaydenbanks6603]

I mean there's a bit of a difference from a creature deck teching for humility or a suspend deck teching for drannith magistrate vs a random turn 2 winter orb with no immediate synergies lol

[@madthevillain]

“Excuse me while I go Adventure Mode and solitaire for 15 minutes…”

[@zotha]

"We won't ban Armageddon but don't play the card" from the RC is baffling even for someone who's played Commander for 8 years, let alone anyone new.

[@danielspahn2593]

It sounds like your turn 0 is free Pithing Needle for some people. 😅😅

[@hi_its_stephen]

I think Commander is too casual. Rule zero was meant to help EDH, but it has ruined it! I agree with the idea that we need a much more robust ban list in Commander! Rule zero should only be for playing cards that ARE banned, aren't actually commanders, etc. I shouldn't have to ask permission from my opponents to play a card that's legal in a format

[@nathanialmynameisajoke]

Too casual???????? I feel like my curve is too high at an average of 3

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

WotC and cEDH spikes (the Crims of the world) have pushed the format too competitive, meaning you can't play anything over 4 CMC anymore. I'd say Commander has become too competitive because of these players

[@stevendefeo8424]

Too high at 3? I would hate playing against you

[@danhick3150]

I'll just leave this here since I think you may be miss evaluating how a mana curve works: Curve of 2 means the average cmc of non land cards is around 3.1. Curve of 3 means your average cmc of non land cards is around 4.7. I find the golden ratio in casual to be around 2.6 or so, this lets my average non land card be around 4 cmc. In spite of this my decks still play 7 cmc+ cards and is more than able to hold up in high powered pods. My decks aren't oppressive in lower power pods either since I build in resiliency to removal (and that slows you down a lot lol) this helps a lot in higher power, but isnt very useful vs lower power decks.

[@nathanialmynameisajoke]

​​@@danhick3150 Thanks. Awesome. Who asked???

[@dee-wreck]

​@@nathanialmynameisajokeI did.

[@rquer7913]

Thank you for the show guys :D Regarding the rule zero discussion: it also has to account for the players' knowledge about the game. The other day, I was playing with two inexperienced players, all three with a precon, and a random guy came with a Brago blink deck. He asked to play with it - it's a 100€ budged deck, he said- and the other two were perfectly fine (I have my own Brago, and quite more experience and I know what it can do...). I didn't say anything, and the Brago player obliterated us. It was not fun, but I didn't know (during rule 0 step) how to present the case to the unexperienced players without being rude to the Brago player... So Commander is more an illusion of a casual format than a real casual format itself, and only with well known pods one can play confortably, imo.

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

Id recommend running more reanimation if your commander is prone to dying or the 1-2 mana spells that return a creature card to your hand.

[@itsazombiethingsgaming1107]

Note to self, this group of 5 rules: no extra turns, no stacks, no land destruction, no counter, and hopefully minimal mass removal for 7 card combos. Noted

[@lokumo13]

To Phil's comments at @14:00 "If you can't do what your deck is trying to do..." then it's not fun. Sure, so replace Humility with a Counterspell. One that counters a spell an opponent's deck wants to resolve to do what it's trying to do? "If your game plan works, but theirs works better, it's fun." -Sure, so Humility came down faster. What is so wronga bout that based on what you are saying? Agreed with Crim's point that "A wrench is gonna happen."

[@BrewersKitchen]

Yeah, I see what you mean. To me, counter spells feel a bit like the most frustrating and efficient 1-for-1 removal. Wraths can be brutal for certain decks as well, but at least the cards still funktion how they are supposed to until they get blown up.

[@lokumo13]

@@BrewersKitchen Sure. But if the qualms is with things that prevent cards from functioning the way they should, then there is a whole bunch of other pieces that can do that too. I just don't think, personally, that there is point in sticking it to one card. I REAALLY don't want to sound like a broken record, but there is a reason why every white deck I play runs Heliod's Intervention for example. The single most flexible way of dealing way X many artifacts/enchantments. Sure, black gets the shorter end of the stick here, but then it gets the best and unconditional tutprs, ideally figuring out another way to getting out of the whole cards like Humility might put it in. Either way, I think the current standing of the banlist is fine, there are some cads that are a lot more ok in today's standards.

[@BrewersKitchen]

@@lokumo13 That's why I mentioned Humility and Tabernacle since they are especially unfun (some more brutal stax pieces as well). Personally I would be fine with no banlist at all (for non-cEDH). There's no way to ban everything unfun and if people want to pop off on turn 1-2 they wil always find a way regardless. I see Humility almost every commander night at my playgroup and I still play the game, I'm just gonna promise to kill them first even if I deal with the Humility 🤣

[@elijahwalker323]

With the mulligan rule, I heard on a video of commander clash (the Professor) where he was playing with some of the creators of commander and they said that if originally if your playing with people you can trust it was just mulligan until they felt good about the mulligan.

[@ginov.7039]

💯 in my playgroup there are unlimited Mulligans. Since we all trust each other we know that we're not going for the God hand just a playable hand

[@NickyKnickerson]

‘Too casual’ is not a thing in a format that was developed by groups of friends at card shops and dining room tables. That is to say, each playgroup plays exactly as casually as they want. Any sort of organized (loosely or otherwise) cedh play will not be casual at all.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

The reason why games become unreasonably long is because no one kills anyone when they get the opportunity.

[@Allupons88]

I think Commander would be a much better format if peoole adopted the attitude from competitive Magic that when you sit down to a game, your opponents could be playing anything. We should stop trying to dictate what fun is for other people.

[@ginov.7039]

💯

[@mcfluffy52]

I spent some time thinking about this. I feel like I agree with Seth, Phil, and Tomer most when it comes to game style I enjoy (I am cool with some combos or explosive turns like Phil, I agree with Seth when it comes the amount of interaction that seems tolerable for most commander tables, and Tomer's rule 0 experience and mentality). I think Richard brings up a really good point regarding how new/most players aren't going to have as much time to learn how to perfect their deck and learn all the rules or invest in the game. I play magic to relax not to problem solve boatloads, and think for hours on how to perfect my deck to answer all the hard counters efficiently or navigate complex board states. Sure, I do that all to some degree, but I am probably more invested than most people. I mean, I literally have been making new standard decks frequently and posting them on KZbin. It's a bit like if someone plays an intramural sport, the don't play it to compete they play it because it's fun, for a little exercise, and to relax in there time off from work. I, like most people, play magic outside other full-time responsibilities, so when I do play magic, I really want it to fun and relaxing, not a lengthy, brain-draining ordeal. (I am speaking mostly to the commander format here to be clear).

[@alexandrelima2766]

Being there average commander player does not preclude you from building a resilient deck

[@ATADSP]

With my playgroups, the only time we rule 0 is if its something like "OH, can I play my UN-commander" We've not even unofficially banned any cards from our group, though I always jokingly push for banning Sensei's Divining Top. I'm also lucky to have a second playgroup but that's at a public location so I just bring a bunch of decks with me and I'm like "okay do you want Sheoldred or do you want Dong Zhou."

[@matthewollar9842]

15:50 “Get good!” 😂 priceless!!!

[@caasIsirhC]

Good show idea! I can only speak to my anecdotal experience but I think game 2 is essentially the sweet spot. I think it's still worth it but ultimately speculative in game 1 to set ground rules. Kind of like casual side-boarding. I only really play at an LGS and I've very rarely had an awful game 1 but it's never extended to a second game. Established players can match newer players or players with one deck. Also, Seth is so friendly and welcoming on the podcast I didn't expect him to be a full on God of War reskin with hair. I was half expecting him to throw a frost axe at something and call the rest of the crew 'boy'.

[@Thecalebpoe]

@Tomer, People lost there mind when you did an extra turn loop in the Moonfolk deck because you were supposed to be playing a color pie break deck and you just ended up doing a boring extra turn loop in blue....BLUE....