Should We Ban The One Ring? | Commander Clash Podcast 113

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Let us know what you think on the poll in the Community tab! www.youtube.com/@MTGGoldfishCommander/community

[@waku13]

You should definitely make an one ring week as farewell video, which everyone builds a deck around abusing the one ring

[@lovetownsend]

thats a great idea

[@lucasbreton4143]

YESSS

[@AllegoryGar]

drafna

[@ConManAU]

I was going to suggest the same thing. Every deck built around finding all the ways to interact with your own and opponent’s Rings. Cloning, stealing, animating, exiling, proliferating, whatever.

[@flashoxmtg]

Definitely this. Try to push the one ring to its breaking point lol. I guess everyone is a clone deck that week

[@funnyvalentine175]

Can I just say I appreciate the added production value in showing the cards they are talking about and giving the audience little graphic about the crews positions. They are not intrusive and they help me understand what is going on.

[@T_Peazy]

I think you guys should play it for the rest of the season, then review the stats for the one ring. And see how you feel then.

[@MrGeoghagan]

I'm with Seth on this one. Ban worthy for Commander Clash based off the standards in place for banning cards. It's generically very good and game warping, even when not built around abusing it, plus the times it has come into play the person playing it ends up wanting to find a way to abuse it. Suppose that is pretty flavorful given the card in question.

[@nathand6467]

I think it being flavorful is the best reason to keep it. I would much rather have "The One Ring" warp a format than some random monkey, or a card based on paying taxes.

[@ev77s4f]

It's basically Necropotence or Yawgmoth's Bargain except colorless so you can jam it in every single deck, and also protects you for a turn for some reason. Truly a ridiculous card.

[@streiifi]

in my opinion u should let the ring unbanned for this season and wait for stat episode and see where to go from there if the meta shakes out every deck using the one ring just ban it for the next season

[@TH3M4X48]

Gosh this makes me think of my play group. We want a life total app that tracks game history so we can look at our stats. I wish an app like this existed.

[@FableErrejeDMR]

yeah also that would be fun

[@FableErrejeDMR]

@@TH3M4X48 it doesn't exist butyou can doit on an excell on your phone

[@varietygamer7859]

This is a good idea

[@thetogtube2]

This.

[@Garl_Vinland]

The thing I noticed about card draw engines are, they are win/win whether or not they are removed immediately. If you remove them, your opponent wastes your removal spell that should of been used on the actual threat they would of drawn. If you don’t remove them, then they help your opponent draw their wincon+several others.

[@Schnookism]

Shadowspear is one answer that wasn't mentioned in the video. It's colorless, low mana cost, almost always does something even if you're not using the activated ability and is easy to tutor for. Only downside is you need another card to remove the ring.

[@lrdrandom]

This right here, the card does sooooo much. It should be in every deck!

[@DaKareerKilla]

Depends on your budget I guess

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I think a good solution for handling House Bans would be to use the Stats episode at the end of a season. Take a few suspect cards, like the One Ring, and check the stats. How many times did it break the game? How many times was it run? Was it seen in game? Then use those stats to analyze your ban list in between seasons. This sets the positive example of using data and periodic analysis to make a decision, rather than a gut reaction.

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

The One Ring does, like rhystic study/smothering tithe warp the game around it in my personal experience. Richard also makes a fantastic point that TORing, akin to Prime Time is the target of every artifact clone/steal effect etc because everyone at the table wants it. It's a tad annoying but that is the destiny of powerful cards.

[@Sean.Thomas2]

I'd rather have the one ring banned and primetime unbanned. in the current era of magic The one ring is so much better than primetime

[@bruvaroni]

​@@Sean.Thomas2gotta call cap on that one.

[@JStack]

The roundabout lore accuracy of everyone wanting their own at cost of their own resources and theme is almost on brand lol

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@Sean.Thomas2 The One Ring has one of the biggest downsides of any "powerful" card. It gets you killed just as often as it wins you the game, unless you specifically built your deck around mitigating its massive downside. If you're not running a blink deck or a life gain deck, it's a huge liability to cast it willy nilly.

[@BobertJoe]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 I mean casting it is never the issue. Even activating it once or twice is not really the issue. Its about people who get greedy and decide to draw 5 or even 6 cards, and doing so without the ability to close out a game in a turn or two. The issue is the most decks want to be running some good way to close out a game in a turn or two, be that infinite combo or something like Craterhoof.

[@Sean.Thomas2]

I've been playing with this card in a group where two out of four of us have it in our decks. And it really echoes the reason why people like the RC say primetime is banned. It really became about how we can gain control of other people's one rings. It can draw so many cards compared to alternatives and that an extremely good rate. I really just do not like how generically good this card is. if we think about formats past commander it's even worse, I know a lot of people on arena especially those in historic want the card to be restricted but that would only make the issue worse. it's very strange, but I've never considered taking out cards that were too powerful for my decks, but the one ring has almost made me do that. in an average power deck I will usually end up discarding to hand every turn after drawing five or six or seven or eight cards every turn.

[@ADVBCAT]

On the topic of something "fun for viewers" vs "fun for players".. I think Sol Ring is the perfect example. It's fun to go off from turn 1 occasionally, so I put up with my enemies getting to do it, because I occasionally want to do it. However, I think in the commander clash format, where you are playing new decks every week, I would never want to see someone just go off with sol ring.

[@dylanthomas2393]

Genuine banger episode, everyone did a good job of arguing their points and I think the meta discussion of your goals as content creators in curating your games vs an at home or store playgroup curating their meta was really fascinating as a look behind the scenes too, definitely points where it felt less like a podcast Ep and more like being a fly on the wall of y’all just discussing your meta which was really interesting.

[@j_g_t6091]

I feel like Crim's argument boils down to "if you play exactly the same as me everything is fine" which I feel is a poor piece of rhetoric. I do understand that if everyone plays more removal or counterspells it is easier to get rid of things, but at the same time having to play specific removal for one card seems a little egregious.

[@bye1551]

​@@j_g_t6091"play the game how I do or you're a crybaby for complaining about anything" is basically crims entire personality. An internet troll that never grew out of it.

[@taylorarnold880]

I'd like to know how much Metagaming goes on. Obviously you each know who is playing what commander and how they tend to build. Also you apparently dont go hard and target weaknesses. If I know everyone is playing red but me, I'm definitely running Chill. But a Hydroblast would not be out of the question if it also has some synergy or theme connection.

[@AllegoryGar]

@@bye1551 If you want to interact with powerful cards, play interaction. its simply true. if you do not want to and would rather play a solitaire style flashy game, go for it. preferably without being mean, that does not advance the conversation

[@axethor]

Paradox Engine was banned for the exact same reasons Seth brought up this episode, and in casual games its often a do nothing artifact the turn it comes down. The One Ring actually does something that turn and is almost more powerful inaa general setting. I'd definitely support a house ban for more entertaining games.

[@timbombadil4046]

Rhystic Study is ultimately a punisher card with the tools to work around it baked in. By comparison the One Ring has a bunch of protection aspects that restricts options of players to respond to it. Considering color identity and the like it's a more egregious card for sure.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The One Ring has its counterplay laid out specifically too. It literally kills the user if they get greedy. Punish their greed. Stall them out. There's no argument for Rhystic Study not being in an entirely different league of power. It's just way stronger. Not only in that Rhystic has no downside, but also in that the literal effect of the card is better. The floor of Rhystic Study is a 1 mana tax on every spell everyone but you casts, and that's already way too strong. Rhystic Study is, in effect, ramp that gets exponentially stronger the longer the game goes on. Again, as the floor.

[@timbombadil4046]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 the downside is the punisher aspect. The asymmetric sphere of resistance can be avoided when needed, and the draw a card advantage can be negated by opponents. It’s the same as browbeat, but more favourably scaled. In general saying a card has no downside means little; there’s no downside to a vanilla creature. So what is that criticism trying to say?

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@BludMun It's hilarious that you tell me why I'm correct with a tone that suggests you think it contradicts what I'm saying. MtG is a game of resources. If your opponents' spells cost 1 more mana to cast, you effectively ramped yourself 1 mana per spell cast per turn. It's a massive advantage, arguably as big as the card draw itself. That's the actual reason why Rhystic Study is OP. If it didn't have the option to pay the 1 it'd be WEAKER. As-is, Rhystic Study is a card that reliably puts you ahead of your opponents in multiple different resources, by a pretty significant amount.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@timbombadil4046 Downsides are put on cards as a balancing feature, to lower their average power level. A vanilla creature might very well prevent you from taking combat damage for several rounds. It won't draw you cards. When you are comparing two cards for the way they accomplish similar objectives, you must analyze the cost at which they do so. Downsides are part of cost. This is black's core gameplay mechanic in general, messing with downsides as a way to supplement cost for balancing purposes. Saying a card has no downside is saying it's always good to cast it. A card that has a downside will inherently have times where you don't want to cast it.

[@pokclaymonmaster5286]

Cards like this are fine. I agree with Crim, it’s not an absolute game ending card. My budget decks with “bad cards” easily competes with my friends high dollar cards. One removal spell or exile effect just ends their game plan. Sure you gotta be able and willing to add those to your deck, but unless they consistently tutor for it or just always seem to have it anyway can still be played around. If you have a personal issue with a powerful card then consider swapping out a few cards that don’t see much play and add interaction. It’s not hard, not expensive (unless you have to have the most expensive everything cards) and it gives the game longevity and more fun interactions

[@rockandrolljew89]

Salt week was great because everyone was playing salty decks and knew that was the plan. Its like cEDH; its fine if everyone is on the same level and knows what they are signing up for; but randomly coming across that kind of deck in the wild is a different story. More broadly, I think One Ring is fine from a power level but is a design mistake and unfun play pattern. Much like constantly being asked if I want to pay the one....

[@losttoubadour2559]

Lore Accurate Ruling Burn It in Fire

[@Theanthill216]

Im with seth on this; no fast mana in casual, and for clash cards like one ring ban. Play coveted jewel instead

[@etten4536]

Really like the editing on this one!

[@Bubblenuts13]

Salt week was great because it was a really funny game and it worked out well. I don’t think you guys would have the same reaction every time

[@alexliang1040]

On the general thread of improving Clash videos - i would love it if you guys started calling out the cards and actions you play so I can listen passively

[@Shinyrocky69879]

The One Ring is different but my experience with a card like this was spore frog. My play group meta was mainly focused on combat damage and 1 player had the ability to spam spore frog thus resulting is very slow and drawn out games that if you just didnt find removal at the right time meant combat damage wasnt an option. The table basically chose that deck as archenemy and when it was played was focused down. I felt bad but at the same time it forever changed our meta. We have more burn now and removal. In the end our table ended up policing loops by acknowledging if you truly want to play that way then we will do our best to not let it happen again. For whoever actually reads this yes i know the ring is harder to remove and better than spore frog but thays my only real relation.

[@Chris-yb8bg]

A good comparison is coveted jewel, where one progresses the game with mana and card draw (like a super monarchy) and gets people attacking and dying and thinking about how to play while the other just slows the game to a halt every time I've seen it. The game warps around those card in both scenarios but one can actually see the game progress, the other is just one sided until they die.

[@TheMrRian]

Tomer said it. The issue with one ring is the same of the sol ring. As you mentioned, it goes into EVERY deck. So it becomes boring, because a cool mechanic gets overshadowed. I would say ban it, unless it is on theme - e.g artifacts, lort or Seth's favorite archetype: card draw theme

[@retrofuturistJL]

Like always Tomer is arguing a non issue. Ring CAN go in every deck. It does NOT going in EVERY deck. More often than not you will never see your One Ring. It will just as often as not sit at the bottom half of your deck. Tomer just sucks at threat assessment and hates having to prepare for things.

[@efnfen]

​@johnlopez6877 these are dumb accusations out of left field

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

There is no world where The One Ring and Sol Ring are comparable in any way. Especially not in that particular way. Not putting Sol Ring in your deck flat out makes it weaker, no matter what your deck is. There are a very very large number of decks that would actively not want The One Ring. And that's just talking about ones that don't want it. There are also the many that would want it if they didn't already just have better options.

[@earlmason1954]

Looking at the question from a content creators perspective, played straight, it seems most powerful when you are behind and that could be a nice catch up mechanism. But it just leads to extremely uninteractive games when you are trying to abuse it.

[@Spaced92]

I just think it's really boring even played straight. Teferi's Protection is a fun gotcha moment, there's something especially unfun about these instant archenemy/get out of jail free cards that also just cycle to me though, idk if it's just me. People always go out of their way to think of fun jank for these kinds of cards because they are powerful, there's no other reason.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@Spaced92 I don't think there's a way to legitimately argue that Teferi's Protection isn't just the same card. They each have benefits and drawbacks compared to each other, but the most relevant effect of both is the same.

[@PimpTheMonkey]

If half the group has decided this is a staple that they put in every deck, it does shift the focus to be about the One Ring. When that happened back in prime Prime Time days, it was all about who could get the most triggers. But I think the distinction now is that basically every deck benefits about the same from the One Ring but some decks benefitted from Primeval Titan a whole lot more than others. A mono blue deck that cloned a Primeval Titan and got 2 islands is way less problematic than a deck that can get 2 strong utility, fixing, or mana positive lands like Cabal Coffers or Serra's Sanctum. In the interest of good content, banning makes sense to prevent the viscious cycle of purely focusing on it but I do not think the average play group or random pod will be so single minded.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

your house ban list's goals are actually EXACTLY what the goal should be for the community as a whole. entertaining fun games are the point of commander... fast mana and omega advantage cards that are leaps and bounds beyond other things totally suck because if somebody gets it first they either get dunked or they dunk everybody else. those aren't very fun games to play or to watch. EDIT: the one ring isn't fun to watch IMO. it's just a boring power card that's too good even when used fairly and is way too flexible with highs that are outrageous. EDIT2: Ugin is pretty bad and slow as hell in A LOT of decks and situations... and is funnily enough bad against the one ring which can just draw you back into the game to outpace the other players post-sweep... EDIT3: Crim never sees the problem with any card lol sooo... not sure his opinion on what to ban should be equally weighed as other opinions lol also... should just put up a community poll to find out what viewers actually want to see happen with this right? if the ban lists are being chose for entertainment?

[@leaguesbelowthesea]

Throwing my hat in to say Ban It. It warps every game it touches, regardless of whether it's too powerful or not.

[@rdmages]

Love how seth goes "What are other cards that are like this, that go in every deck, other than fast mana?" and absolutely nobody answered the question

[@shinobu-39]

I do want the One Ring banned because it's kinda boring if the table is not equipped to deal with it. BUUUUT, for commander clash, I would like y'all to continue using it for the season and see if you have any creative brews with it. I know it practically fits every deck but in that sense, I want to see it in the Clash more just in different decks. It makes sense to keep it going this season since it came out during this time. And then, if there's gonna be a ban, it makes more sense to do it by next season.

[@MCvicRPG]

No idea about the wild because i only play in a private playgroup where no one has it, for clash i completly agree with you.

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

Unfortunately the casual players - Richard, Seth, Tomer, Phil - would make cool brews with it and show cool fun things, but Crim would just play his typical spike decks with it and it would be so boring

[@shinobu-39]

@@adamfiliatreault3393 I don't necessarily agree. Crim keeps the table in check and maintains the balance. Am I looking forward to Crim's One Ring brew? Not really. His brews are more interesting when he makes aggro decks. A spike deck with the One Ring is pretty boring and doesn't need to be showcased anymore. But I do want him there when people play the one ring otherwise it would be a boring table. When value decks like the ones Phil/Seth make go off, I want them to go off after overcoming adversity. Value engine games are boring to watch when someone just goes off and no one can even touch them. Also, Crim is pretty casual. I mean he uses 1:1 spot removal. Countering/control decks at his speed belongs in casual. His decks can't even touch competitive.

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

@@shinobu-39 all Crim plays are the same, unfair, blue/black spike decks with one or two cards to meet the flavour requirements. I find any game with him to be frustrating, especially because he always focus fires the most casual player - Tomer

[@shinobu-39]

​@@adamfiliatreault3393 When he plays blue/black, I agree and find the flavor lacking but his red/white/green decks are pretty cool. But calling blue/black spike decks unfair is an unfair assessment. I understand if it was some stax, narset-wheel shenanigans but Crim is playing pretty basic control and that's something that should be allowed at any table. It's a card game designed for people to interact. Interaction is casual and the responsible thing to do. I do agree that Crim does go after Tomer a bit too much but 3/4 of the time, it's the correct decision. You always go after the person who's ahead. It makes sense to go after Tomer because he's the one who's usually doing well. That is praise for both sides - Tomer is building decks well and Crim is doing proper threat assessment. When Crim is not in the pod, some games are boring in the sense that it's just the person leading doing things for several turns while the others struggle to even make a board. And we all know we can't count on Richard to play spot removal. Tomer and Crim end up at odds because they're both responsible players with good threat assessment. Phil's value decks lack defense so he tends to get stifled the most but lately, his defensive deck building has improved which is why he won all those off-season games. That is with control on the table. Those were much more entertaining games. I understand people don't like control. And that's fine. If you don't want it in your pod, then make that rule. But control (at this level) is casual and it keeps most games balanced. I don't play control myself but I can sense my own pod's disdain when I'm doing my value/combo but no one can even interact with any of my pieces. I'd rather win after people try to stop me.

[@McWeenyKen]

I thought about buying this card for my LotR food deck as an upgrade. Reading it, I see you can play it early for card draw, or play it later for a fog effect. I can see how reusing the ring repeatedly would be fairly salty inducing. I think if it cost 1 more mana to cast or some amount of mana to activate it would be 100% fine but it's VERY strong for the 4 mana, and especially because of indestructible.

[@Garl_Vinland]

It’s the indestructible. It could be two mama for all I care, but you can’t remove it

[@BobertJoe]

@@Garl_Vinland White has 0 issues with it, blue has counterspells, green has several good options. Black has always had trouble with artifacts indestructible or not. Red is really the only color that has clean answers to most artifacts that dont answer TOR, and lets be real, most of them are only running Vandalblast for that role anyway. Being able to or unable to remove it really isnt the issue.

[@liammanning8334]

I have a rhystic study in almost every blue deck. And almost everyone I play against plays the tax and I rarely draw a card. I feel like if your play group doesn't play properly against a card, that is a literally a issue with playgroup and not the card itself.

[@ElDocBruh]

I've spent an entire week going through (many of) your podcasts (even ones with bad audio!) and I have to say I've become a fan. I love these discussions.

[@zazinjozaza6193]

This is one of the best episodes you guys have ever done.

[@AdamKeeton]

I mean, I can understand some people wanting to stop watching Commander Clash because they don't enjoy seeing The One Ring play patterns all the time. I similarly stopped watching Commander Clash on the seasons with Crim because of his philosophy, deck building patterns, and general trolling (which I see as BM allowed for "content's sake") very unenjoyable to watch. When "misery is back on the menu" every week, I don't want to watch a show that makes people miserable, so I don't. But I also know I'm in the minority here, most comments I read on other posts praise his BM every game, so I think it boils down to what people want to watch.

[@andrewtaylor5883]

Completely off topic: The Bath Song is a sleeper staple for the casual EDH game. I would love to see each member play it on commander clash and give an over all rating. I give it a solid A. Low commitment & low risk High reward & versatility

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

Thanks! Haven't heard about the card prior and now have taken a look at it. Not bad!

[@collinthomson7942]

@@Nathanael_Forlornexact same haha!

[@atombased-m3d]

Try a comparison vs. necropotence. Necro lets you pay however much to draw that many cards, whereas the one ring doesn't. I get indestructable and protection from everything is huge, but isn't necro equally cool or possibly more sweet?...because you can pump lots of life in a necro to find answers in a clutch situation?

[@sammartin8746]

The mention of using exile removal is something I find very important, I massively prefer exile-based removal unless I am removing multiple targets, for example I have a Sheoldred, Whispering One deck that uses discard effects or edicts that hit everyone, and I will use exile target creature or planeswalker type cards as my only single target removal options

[@austinmairet1772]

I would let it stay for the rest of the season and reevaluate at the end. It could be like a cyclonic rift type thing where it's usually fine but you might want a break from it.

[@andrueurbane7361]

The One Ring caused my favorite commander game moment this year. I spent 3 turns, countering and stifling.... not the One Ring but the attempts of my opponent who controlled it to remove it from the board so they didn't die from it. It finally killed them. Each time I stopped them I loudly proclaimed "THE RING TEMPTS YOU"! The entire table including the person affected were in stitches.

[@pwnguinmage3562]

*Question First:* I am curious though with all that fast mana banned, why are burgeoning, exploration and utopia sprawl not banned? All 1 green mana ramps. It's not like green needs the extra fast mana either with the best ramp as is, so I am curious why they are not banned? Or do you just soft ban them? I ask as a person who has a couple decks with exploration, burgeoning and 6-10 bounce lands, can get kinda nutty and end up with 5mana turn 2 and stuff, way more then sol ring, or equal in the case of a bounce land and exploration (though arguably, you end up suddenly turn 2 with 3 cards in hand xD). *Opinion on this episode:* Great. Loved seeing the thought processes you guys went through ^ ^ *Opinion on the question in video:* Honestly? One ring seems fine in commander, but... not a boogy man IMO. I bought one and couldn't even fit it into my card draw deck. Was a waste of money. The loss of life built up to fast without any way to deal with gaining life for me + people beating on me enough as is, just wasn't worth throwing in. I could see if you planned to loop it non-stop every game then yah bannable. But I super disagree it is a "fit in every deck" card. My playgroup similarly plays a lot of theme decks, jank stuff, and I don't think I have seen a single One ring cause it... fits the theme of a ring deck. or LOTR deck. Beyond that. Yah draws cards, yah saves you for a single turn, but if you aren't going to build a deck around infinite protection (which, f-fine? No diffrent then any other combo deck, just concede if can't stop the loop), then. Yah. Doesn't seem worthy of a ban. That said, I don't see a issue with Rhystic Study or Smothering tithe either. Especially if you don't runt hem in every deck of yours, cause rather have jankier funner theme cards. *And I SUPER agree about fast mana being banned. I wish I was as brave as Tomer, much like Seth said, he is a better player then I. I could only cut Sol ring from 2 of my 14 paper decks. I wish I could in all of them, just so hard to justify. And those ones are just enchantment decks with Burgeoning, Exploration, Utopia Sprawl, etc instead. So not like am being 'Brave'.*

[@newtpondskipper]

This. Green can ramp cheaply and they ban MLD in general so there is no downsides or answers to green ramp. I play Darien and have as much white ramp and artifact mana as I can just to cast him. The idea that the stax I use to slow down my opponents so I can actually cast my commander before turn six+ and not to mention when he dies the added cost... stax doesn't have to be all oppressive and ramp can be very oppressive.

[@ChristopherM.8]

I think seth and tomer are absolutely on the money here. TOR is a problem for the same reason sol ring is. It becomes nigh unbeatable in decks that can repeatedly bounce it. I disagree with rhystic and smothering being on the ban list, but i love that seth is self-aware enough to know he is the reason for it lmao.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Spending 4+ mana per turn to only prevent attacks and targeting isn't that strong. Like, it doesn't even stop you from losing to gray merchant. It doesn't protect itself either. And if you're blinking it instead of bouncing it, you avoid having to spend the 4 mana each time, but you also don't get the most powerful effect it has. Like... I can think of several 3 mana black enchantments that are better than a perpetually bouncing TOR.

[@Shimatzu95]

Id prefer your housebanlist over the actual one to be honest.

[@nathand6467]

I wish it was more "official" in public card shop games I want to play with this ban list, it no question makes for better games of casual. And side note, if Dockside isnt on the banned list, why have a ban list. Maybe some of these guys and commander vs. crew needs to be on the rules committee, or a second social/casual ban list.

[@DenizGazitepe]

Sure I'll just play the power 9 instead lmao

[@buckleupbt]

I voted to ban it after the season is over. I actually did skip through a bit during the episode where Crim was looping it because it was a really boring play pattern and I didn't feel any tension just resignation. I know you can obviously answer it but you can also answer the answers (protecting it or making copies at instant speed) but if you ask me whether I want to see a game revolve around The One Ring or something actually dynamic like Coveted Jewel I'll pick the jewel every time. There's also the deck slots the answers take up which reduce the fun cards you put in (only really applies to Seth and Tomer because Crim likes having a lot of answers and Richard will have fun if he gets to pants the Ring player).

[@Bro490]

From my perspective in the audience, watching seth try to dig with the one ring when he was down was super entertaining.

[@discoviolenza1984]

I just wached the episode Richard talked about here where he had a ”janky Dockside deck” and it was just a Cedh deck whether or not he realized it. Full of tutors and the Underworld Breach Dockside combo.

[@Pyrodactyl]

Great episode, loved hearing your thoughts about the one ring. It's funny how just the ring existing warps everything around it, just like the flavor intended lol.

[@goldbergbrain]

Ban at end of season so I can see Seth run it in every deck, tutor for it, and troll Crim

[@alfred8936]

Called it instantly that Crim was going to go with the classic "uh there's other strong stuff in the format therefore this format-warping uber staple that goes in literally every deck is also totally fine" take

[@SifSehwan]

Yeap, Crim rocks, his decks look like actual decks you would see in random playgroups.

[@efnfen]

​@@SifSehwanmost playgroups aren't griefer trolls

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That's literally not true of The One Ring, and you are extremely bad at the game if you think it is. It fits in niche decks as a power card, but in most decks it's extremely risky as generic card draw.

[@alfred8936]

​@@dontmisunderstand6041 If you don't see how price is the only thing keeping it from showing up everywhere, you are extremely bad at evaluating card design through the perspective of casual format health and diversity

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@alfred8936 I'm not sure if you realize this, but most of the time if your life total reaches 0 you lose. In terms of diversity: Only niche decks make The One Ring a powerful inclusion. Most decks see it as a double-edged sword that there are much safer options to replace it with. In terms of casual format health: The One Ring is fair and balanced in casual. It only actually gets annoying or oppressive in sweaty tryhard builds that abuse it. Casual is the place where its presence is healthiest.

[@StephanKrawec]

Not only was Salt week my favorite commander clash, I love playing those games and wish others did, the back and forth and interaction is what makes magic... magic to me.

[@W4llh4k]

Yeah, but stax if often used not to stop the threaths but to delay them, and most ppl value more their time, than the health of the games. I am an in between where stax don't hurt me, and I will play it in ocassion, but prefer interaction on my terms rather than needing the ouphe to stick around

[@luccharmasson8324]

a bunch of cry babies lol

[@rulamagic]

I would like to see how you play around cards like rhystic study. I think it's a valuable lesson to see how other pods especially more knowledgeable and experienced players deal with these staples that show up everywhere.

[@joshholmes1372]

You play rhystic study. I flash in orcish bow masters. No I don't pay the 1. Yes i ammas 1 and ping your dome.

[@josephpayton7522]

I like to watch just normal games. That's why my favorite tend to be the new commander builds. The themes don't take over too much.

[@TheEvolver311]

The only point I couldn't get over is Seth proclaiming it as a staple and then the entire crew acknowledging that most players don't actually play it; which seems like the exact opposite of a staple.

[@konnichi1wa]

It would be a staple if it wasn't 60 dollars and hard to get.

[@jukaiforest]

Discussions like this are good for individual playgroups who want to curate a specific type of experience. However, talks like this are exhausting and polarizing and are one of the main reasons I just decided to go full into cEDH.

[@nathand6467]

I think thats fair, and also, ... how the heck do you have conversations like this for a public game?.. chat for 1 hour each on the 7-10 cards that arnt on the banned list but (probably should be) are impossible to play fairly in a casual/social game.

[@jukaiforest]

@@nathand6467 and every deck is a 7 on top of that haha

[@oldkokochen1593]

We have stax routinely in our group and I think it has made for a healthier group. Slows down the “unfair” strategies and creates a new group challenge to overcome every week. The wins move around the table and we just local meta to answer. Keeps it dynamic.

[@karlwebb4799]

I think the commander clash crew are very good at self regulating themselves in favour of entertaining and non repetitive content. Finding more thematic means of card draw is the branding of these decklists and great to see. I like the conscious "watchlist" approach to cards like Cyclonic Rift, and feel the One Ring should be treated similarly. Personally for myself, it came up multiple times in this conversation, Teferi's Protection is my biggest "groan" card. It is biggest cheap-copout, catch all protection spell to any permanent and the player that is near impossible to play around. And for entertainment purposes, it literally treats a player as affectively not in game. Players cant team up against the powerful protected player, teferi's protection near guarantees that player will survive to their untap step.

[@crazedzealots]

The one ring, the one ring, the one ring, ban it. It's done enough damage already on your show.

[@Dragonspassage]

I've long since shifted to all exile removal. Destroy is dead to much in commander.

[@ryanrab13]

I've watched mtggoldfish for longer than I can remember and clash since episode 1 season 1. I've always enjoyed seeing the themes you guys play and I like seeing you incorporate these powerful cards into those themes because they have a spot due to being on theme. I think banning it due to it always being good hurts the ability of the content to reach its potential in that way. I at the very least would like for you guys to accept each other breaking the ban list to fulfill a good flavor fit in a deck that a card like the one ring fits into perfectly. I think of it similarly to Seth restricting his own use of alchemy cards when playing in historic; he doesn't do it often, but some of them are perfect for some weird corner case interaction

[@Saro1021]

No one in my pod even has a The One Ring to play. I love seeing the cool stuff that can come from playing it but I totally get the understanding of it being game warping, but I kind of agree with Crim in the sense that there are a LOT of bombs that fill a similar role. The idea of it being possible for it to show up in every deck doesn't mean it will but if it does, doesn't that just mean it's another of the bombs for that deck? Like it saves that player but not their board, so I don't even think it's necessarily as bad as some other protection spells that exist. The drawing with it just helps deck with weaker draw stay relevant with like blue and green draw heavy decks.

[@jyomi7506]

I think the content part is the biggest thing. As the audience, we can see what's in everyone's hands, and even check the decklists before watching the games. I think it's going to be one of those "Is he gonna draw it?" cards that if we know it's there then it can be easy to just expect it to come in and change the game in a big way. Kinda how my Breya deck went with my play group. I had to change up how I used her in the deck because everyone expected me to just gun down every creature they played to protect myself, so they'd come after me as soon as she came in... You remove one threat and suddenly everyone gets REAL defensive lol... The One Ring is the same, it COULD win you the game, so they HAVE to stop you, even if you play it and it finds the answer to save the table or you'd be dead without it. I don't think you need to ban it, but I feel like building to beat it is also wrong. If the former prevents the later, ban it for variety if nothing else.

[@ernestgarcia5488]

I just wanna remind people about crush contraband, I play it in every white deck, 2 for 1, instant speed, takes care of artifacts and enchantments, which for some reason i dont see people run enough answers for, there isnt a single game where this spell wont have juicy targets, it lets you keep your stuff and just remove the biggest problems so its not like a board whipe where youre just slowing down the game, yeah its only 1 card but idk why i dont see it more, i feel like most people would say because its 4 cmc but id argue that most impactful artifacts and enchantments are around the same cost.

[@MerlinSaur]

I like the idea of cards being printed to make other cards, like a slightly higher CMC removal spell, better

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That is weird. Enchantments tend to be the most powerful card type overall. I can understand not running dedicated artifact removal, but enchantments will just break you if you let them.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Yeah, everyone is playing bombs. But if we watch the same “bomb” making an impact in the game week after week, it’s going to become less interesting to watch. (Did you know that a significant amount of viewers complain in cEDH channels about “being bored of watching too many games decided by Thoracle”?)

[@kevinprice674]

The one ring warps games, but it warps games in the same way as consecrated sphinx, necro, craterhoof, insurrection and luminarch ascension. Its a powerful bomb that draws attention, but generally you guys dont play those cards in every deck they can go in. So i dont think the one ring is a problem so long as the clash crew keeps it in moderation

[@kevinprice674]

Maybe try like each person gets 3 uses of the one ring per season or something

[@rhettk6263]

What i think you should do is only run it if the deck really synergizes with the commander like a Rowan deck, because of how it synergizes with the life loss. Or tap and untap synergies like hylda. But if you are just running one ring just to run the one ring because its good, no dont do that

[@johanandersson8252]

Or grouphug

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That's generally how I feel about MtG in general. I believe every deck should have a theme, and you should stick to it, especially if sticking to it lowers the deck's power level.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

My instinct is to keep it reserved for the all-in sweaty decks and games with my groups, but I would personally like you to keep it for the season just so I can see what it does with actual data, from some players who play reasonable decks but have a higher skill level than my own group.

[@DarcyBits]

I think one thing not discussed is that it feels like more of a theme break than other similar cards because of how thematic the card is. Cyclonic Rift can go in any blue deck because its just a blue card. The One Ring feels weird in a theme deck because its explicitly lord of the rings themed. (That isn't to say all lotr cards feel out of place, but since its so iconic, and combined with all the other reasons in the video, it ends up feeling more of a theme-break)

[@tecapran]

Seth should play Teferi's Protection, Cyclonic Rift, and The One Ring every game for the rest of the season for the lols. And loop all 3.

[@stanislav_5312]

I think the one ring is fine is somebody does not recast it constantly. Soo, i would keep it unbanned. Also, in most of your games you play niche cards, themes anyway, it's not like now you have 50th auto include cards.

[@Theanthill216]

Commander clash alphabet letters that would be perfect to make an episode on are; D, E, L, & M.

[@ArmageddonAsh]

I'm 100% with Seth. The fact that its colourless is the thing. It can and will go into EVERY deck. It has no real downside. Its insanely strong, Its warping. Have a tutor? Grab One Ring, can play a 4 mana spell? Play One Ring. Its too strong, its colourless AND the indestructible makes it even harder to deal with.

[@danhick3150]

One ring in my play group hasnt been a problem since the first time we saw it, nobody in my group runs a particularly large amount of removal. All it took was switching up some of our removal options and it hasnt been a problem since.

[@santaclauseking]

I say keep it unbanned until the next season. I think thats sensible and really gives us an accurate idea of how busted it may or may not truly be. Then, for next season, we (you) can make a more educated guess. That being said. As a boros player I think running more damage cant be prevented card effects would really benefit edh due to teferis pro, fogs, glacial chasms, etc becoming more prevalent (at least in my playgroup). An evolving meta should be welcomed (eg brotherhoods end has done work since it released) and i don't see the one ring as anything different. Lastly, salt week was incredibly hilarious (the misplays were *chefs kiss*). I would it have it replace chaos week episodes. Just a suggestion you guys are my favorite commander content creators. Awesome work!

[@CreateWorlds]

21:19 the card is fine for your videos. It’s a non issue. For me it doesn’t ruin the videos like at all. There’s gonna be bombs in all decks and I don’t care if decks are running the same bomb. The card draw lets us see more of the deck anyway

[@drwgordon]

Good talk, I do wish you dived deeper into case studies: each instance it came up and the effect. Go through them one by one and discuss. But still good. I’m pro ban

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

Seth : The "research" that says Sol Ring wins you less games was done very unscientifically and should be thrown in the trash. Also One Ring should probably go just because it goes in every single deck, Also also for the record I think interactive games where people just don't pop off are more entertaining than people just doing whatever they want >.>

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

It literally doesn't go in every deck. It takes a niche deck to make it powerful. Most decks it's a double edged sword that loses games just as often as it wins them.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 if you are basing that on the command zone numbers they are heavily flawed and unreliable. That whole thing has done more harm than good

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@RyuPlaneswalker I'm basing it on a basic understanding of fundamental strategy, because self-reported numbers of what people are choosing to do is inherently flawed and unreliable as a concept.

[@singularleaf3895]

I am in the side of ban it next season and let it run its course for whats left of this season. That way we can still see some cool brews with it before its basically silenced until you do a season or game with no bans.

[@matthewollar9842]

Before long, Commander will be Basic Lands and nothing over $1. And the budget players will rejoice.

[@siri7005]

I don't think the ring has really ruined anything yet and I'm not THAT tired of it so I don't think keeping it around for the rest of the season would hurt. However, I doubt there's anything anyone could do with it at this point that would feel interesting; never seeing it again wouldn't make me feel like I missed out on anything so for that reason I think you might as well just drop it right away.

[@oafkad]

Price definitely matters for the acceptable nature of cards. Because most people don't proxy (yet) the unreachable price of cards is what impacts people's perceptions. Because most people never experience playing against things like Dockside. If Dockside is ever 2 dollars you are going to see an immediate demand for it to be banned. TOR will be in the same boat.

[@nathand6467]

Jeweled lotus same. Should go in 95% of decks, but I have never seen it, mostly on price. My main dislike for the recent Rhystic Study reprint. Now theres more of them kicking around from people who opened them at pre-release, and I have seen more. And the main problem with that card isnt power level, its the likely hood of making the game worse between people forgetting the trigger and interrupting turns to remind people of the trigger and the overall quality of the and net fun of the game likely to go down especially with newer players in the game. Just ban these from casual/public games.

[@CreateWorlds]

34:04 one issue is that it doesn’t win by itself. It draws cards and then you use your own cards to win. You can’t win just by drawing and taking damage. You draw into your wincon so you’re showing off the deck

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

It does lose by itself though.

[@WhammeWhamme]

Already voted. Think it sends a message to just promptly ban it. Take a stand against ridiculous cards!

[@MrMartinSchou]

Could also have some games where you play pauper commander. That gets you around banning The One Ring, because anything other than common (uncommon commanders) is not allowed in those games.

[@Spirited_skiing]

Keep it for the season for the stats! Could be very interesting

[@Humstuck]

I agree with your banlists. Fast mana is bullshit and everything else I also agree.

[@empurress77]

I have a possible topic you might like: Is the "Color pie" too far to being or becoming "Too much crust and not enough pie"? Too many damage spells for red. Too many life gain cards for white. Too many destroy whatever for black. Too many cheap creatures with too many abilities for way too cheap for green. Too many bounce spells/creatures and too much Controle for blue? Way too cheap artifacts and artifact creatures that do too much. Therese are just examples. There are more examples of "Too much crust and not enough pie" for all of the colors. In our groups experience any one of these meta types can be very boring to play against very quicky.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That's why mostly only very new players or highly competitive players run mono-color decks regularly. They tend to be too same-y. Mixing colors gives you the opportunity to trade some of that "crust" for more of the filling. There's a reason the most popular sets tended to be the ones where multicolor was major theme of the plane.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

So far, I've got a 2-1 record in games where I cast The One Ring. Last time I did, it singlehandedly put me in the winning position because my friends seemed to be overlooking how many cards I was drawing off it (drew 21 cards off it by the time the game ended). Have yet to face off against TOR, so I'm curious to see how that would pan out.

[@jfrizzell6645]

Not sure who is going to be reading these comments - yes, I feel the One Ring should be banned, probably more immediately than not. If it gets one more game to sign with no easy answers, then ban it this season if you are going for 8-10 more episodes. If it don't show up in the next few shows, then let it ride to the end of the season. I dislike any card that results in 10 minute discussions during ya'll's gameplay. Rhystic Study was the worst for this as well as Tomer's indecisive and dithering when Crim seems to be holding up opposition agent mana - just a great distraction from the game.

[@ishtarsdonut4489]

This is one to look forward to!

[@sagelwi09]

I do think conversations like this are why despite enjoying casual commander a lot, cEDH with an actual consistent goal and coherent ideology that people agree to when playing the format just makes more sense to me with far fewer logical inconsistencies.

[@nicholaskandas]

There was a bit Richard said that I think would make a great podcast episode "we don't do jerk moves". What is sportsmanship in magic? I had to sit down with my playground and explain why I wasn't interested in playing if they'll spite scoop. That seems generally agreed upon, but I struggle to name other jerk moves: kingmaking; stacks; playing salty cards? A second thought, I'd love to see stats on how many staples were played at the end of the season. I'm suspicious that some of this "I always play theme cards" discussion is based purely on feelings and not facts.

[@shayneweyker]

The way to get around the protection One Ring grants is black life drain, not unpreventable damage.

[@d-boyzinfinity1614]

I have like 15 decks all with weird themes. I’ll play a more flavorful replacement if it fits the theme. But that’s why the one ring is in my Sam/Frodo and Aragorn decks. It’s flavorful card draw for those but thematically it doesn’t fit into any of my other decks. Plus a lot of those other decks have card draw engines in the command zone. Most commanders draw cards these days

[@MeowHoots]

The fast mana banned meanwhile green still can ramp get ahead everyone lol weird. Also copying the one ring doesnt give you protection...

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Neither does flickering it. The only way to loop the protection requires spending 4 mana every single turn to cast The One Ring.

[@cameronmoerer6244]

Imagine playing interaction though. Exile effects are great. I know Richard doesn't like single target removal but like...There are so many exile effects that can remove this. The problem is how people CURRENTLY play magic. Relying too much on sweepers is the biggest problem.

[@Imoman3113]

The thing about taking away from the theme, is the one ring does not progress the game by itself. It just fuels the deck. You still see the deck do its own thing. There’s some cards we are just used to seeing. Even if I see arcane signet every game it doesn’t make it less fun. I get more bored of seeing the same win cons every time, like craterhoof or something. But even that would not make me want to ban it.

[@jonathangodbolt1671]

Play it out for the rest of the season, and see if it does warp gameplay. I don't think there's anything wrong with banning cards that make for uninteresting gameplay, but I don't think you need to rush to a decision. You guys could probably do some behind the scenes youtube analytics at the end of the season and see if videos with TOR gameplay do noticeably better or worse than the rest of the season's videos.

[@EdBurke37]

While I agree with Crim that it shouldn't be banned I think the question that he needs to answer is why is Rift a pillar to him but The One Ring isn't?

[@Snst-404]

Just as an fyi green can also shuffle permanents to the library the same way chaos warp does it but I'm not sure if the lorwin cards are on mtgo Also really liked the editing of the video keep it up