Is D&D Not Cool Anymore?

In a recent interview, lead designer of 5th Edition, Mike Mearls, said that he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment and is now uncool again. Is D&D no longer cool, and what does this mean?
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#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #wotc #hasbro

[@NisGaarde]

I honestly think a lot of people are done with the cutesy patootsie tone of modern D&D. They want their RPGs to feel _badass!_ They want classic fantasy. And that's just not really what D&D is delivering right now.

[@dalriada7554]

I disagree on one point : people don't want "dark" fantasy, but they want fantasy with a clear identity (look for "Dungeons and kittens trailer". The trailer is based on a RPG and I love it, even if it have a childish aesthetic. Because it knows what it is and explores it fully). D&D has that, back in 2e and 3e. With clearly identifiable settings. You knew the forgotten realms weren't Planescape and planescape wasn't Dark sun. In 5e, it's all more mushy. The reasons is obvious : if everything is linked, people will buy everything and not just a specific setting. But just like the MCU showed us, that tactic can backfire.

[@NisGaarde]

​@@dalriada7554 Well, a lot of people really _do_ want darker fantasy. Something that feels grittier, deadlier, more dangerous and scary. One of the most popular D&D clones out there, if not _the_ most popular right now, is literally called ShadowDark.

[@dalriada7554]

@@NisGaarde I doubt it. ShadowDark is hyped, but dungeon crawlers aren't the most popular genre.

[@unknowncomic4107]

@@dalriada7554 Actually dark fantasy is one of the strongest selling markets in games.

[@dalriada7554]

@@unknowncomic4107 I'd love to see some numbers. Dark fantasy is definitely a strong genre, but it's far from overwhelming, not even a majority.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

As the generation that was introduced to 5E in 2014 age out of the hobby, we’ll see the numbers drop. The TTRPG hobby has always had a drop out age beginning around age 25 and lasting at least through 35ish. There is some return to the hobby by players in their 40s - 50s as leisure time increases. When older players return, they aren’t looking for cutesy gaming, they want more dark and gritty.

[@gedece]

I'm one of the returnees and what we want is to try a lot of different systems because now there are SO many to try.

[@itzybitzyspyder]

Same pattern with video games. You "outgrow" it then when you try to recapture your youth, and have money, you come crawling back.

[@davidhanson8728]

I have been in the hobby since the 70's. The one thing that is cool about dnd 5e is that it brought SO many people into the hobby that would never have been here otherwise. Yes, most are pretty casual and may not go beyond dnd. Some may dabble in other games where they have an interest like vampire masquerade. The hobby has never been larger or easier for people to find groups. That is pretty cool. DND is not the best system, but it strikes a good balance. It is not as crunchie has DnD 3.5 or PF 1st addition or a Shadowrun game where 10 seconds of combat takes a like number of hours to properly play in three dimensions (meat, magic and matrix). It's not as slimmed down and bare bones as many old school games. It gives players who like to build abilities a chance to shine, without being too bogged down in figuring out 6 modifiers to remember to add and subtract. With the IP mainstream and accessible enough that new players can have a good RPG experience in the game. That is cool for the hobby.

[@waterslethe]

That was an extremely fun stream. Everyone was so good at conversing, keeping an eye on chat, and giving everyone a chance to weigh in. Wholesome.

[@itzybitzyspyder]

I think the three of them are good together. Just Stephen and Mark gets a little too back and forth in a more adversarial way. This opinion versus that opinion. Adding the 3rd guy adds more of a forum format versus a debate feeling format.

[@bradleyhurley6755]

I think it's important to note that most of the drop out cast participates in D20. So while you are cycling through the D20 cast you are still having people the viewers are familiar with. Contrast that to all the non main cast critical Role shows that take a massive audience decline.

[@brandoneckert5096]

I think its falling out of popular culture...I don't think dnd is falling out with the fans, people who actually liked playing, but 2024 is a total bomb

[@ericzauche4309]

Total bomb seems an overstatement. I'm a DM since 1981 n I run 5E 2024.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

My daughters (23, 20) didn’t watch Stranger Things due to its connection to D&D, they watched it for the boy actors. I tried to get them to try playing D&D and they had less interest than no interest. They outright rejected the idea, “No that is nerdy”.

[@memeslich]

Two big takeaways from this one: Other panel shows use a program called STREAMYARD and NOT zoom and when Mark said that Ed Greenwood was not on video, Ed has been doing KZbin for over a year now.

[@rodrigopinheiro3968]

Best show ever. Discourse, Jessica and Derik add a lot to the show. You need a six person layout to add Bob Worldbuilder or Professor DM.

[@gedece]

It might be that only 10% of us got upset by the OGL, but that 10% included me and I was the only 5e master in my group, so more people were affected. I'm not saying only GMs were affected, but we were the ones that supported a lot of smaller publishers, so seeing them in danger opened our eyes.

[@aaronfrey4418]

For initiative, I like how Shadowdark does it. Highest roll goes first, but then it just goes around the table or down the Discord. The GM rolls for all the monsters on their turn.

[@respobabs]

D&D was cool??

[@gattzflappa6306]

HA! Got'em.

[@slaapliedje]

That was ultimately it's downfall! It used to be something nerds did because they didn't have the physical prowess to play sports or date women. So they played games that used their brains. When the women realized that physical prowess fades with age, and nerds were getting rich, the nerds became more appealing to them. This made the nerd hobbies become main stream, and now the popular kids are basically ruining it, because they think it's more about larping and fulfilling their perverted fantasies than it is about high adventure and slaying the bad guys. D&D shouldn't be 'cool'. It should be something nerds play in their dank basements instead of trying to get laid in dank bars. :P

[@itzybitzyspyder]

Always has been...

[@griselame]

In it's current state, it's an unimaginative, soulless, corporate game, emptied dry of all its flavour. Let it die I say

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

every year I am more convinced that going from niche to mainstream is not, in fact, a good thing.

[@evilDMguy]

Here is my Ed Greenwood story. I know who he is and by sight. I was at a GenCon and saw Ed Greenwood talking to someone. I patiently waited as they talked. When they finished, I then talked to the person speaking to Ed Greenwood! Even he was surprised that I wasn't waiting for him.

[@EdS-du2wu]

If you play in person and still use a VTT that is good. Example: exploring with light and vision.

[@samalock2020]

during prestige class talks: imho yes bring them back BUT they only in adventure paths. yes prestige classes require a specific playstyle to build up which is true. if doing a random theme, location, plotline adventure this will mess with that specific style. adventure paths always have a theme to them like say agents of edgewatch. you could add in some form of rogue guard prestige class unlokacle at certain lvl/story point do to moment in story you get betrayed and on your own. yes im aware archetype adventure paths exist but they go into about thats a 2nd job which is true hence like the city guard archetypes in edgewatch. even in edgewatch there is various factions so if do side quests for them to gain favor then they are willing to teach you their faction specific skills and class you can become.

[@EdwardKelleher-z8f]

Interesting that Derik said DH was in your face and cards would turn people off, but that everyone is going digital anyway. With DH embracing digital as part of it (Demiplane), could that bridge that gap?

[@jamesbaird128]

Am I the only one thinking this amazing panel could make for a great lampoon of The O'Riley Factor?

[@TheLibGamer]

TTRPGs like D&D can work in libraries, community centers, and the like... Warhammer doesn't work as well in those settings. This makes it easier to dip into a TTRPG and learn about it before investing a bunch of money, but harder for war games.

[@LouisJoBenoit]

The idea of Dungeon & Discourse for initiative is pretty similar to Troika initiative (but I think they suggest cards and the end of round is also represented and randomly drawn).

[@itzybitzyspyder]

I like Jamison. On ice so i can taste it breaking up. Has an almost sweet taste. I have plenty of whiskeys, but thats my everyday whiskey.

[@rodrigopinheiro3968]

D20 Modern was awesome!

[@josephpilkus1127]

What an absolutely great episode! "Worlds colliding" is quite apt, Stephen

[@FURognar]

Its never been cool. It was never intended to be cool. It was always intended for geeks, nerds and wargamers.

[@The-Magic-Sword]

This was a fun stream, wish I caught it live

[@davidhanson8728]

Sounds like you want the magic system from DCC. That is unpredictable and fun on extreme results... good and bad... and sometime so good it's bad.

[@brandon8667]

Derik won me over

[@lars-hendrikschilling3531]

Can someone link the Mearls interview? The great goddess Google isn't smiling down on me today.

[@tryman1592]

Popcorn initiative is the best. It work by who is doing the action first, then he choose whose next, and it continues like that until everyone in the fight is done. When the last one finish, he choose who is next including himself.

[@ericzauche4309]

Mike Merles was the gate keeper for what was included or not in 5E in 2014. Mike was Chris Perkins n Jeremy Crawford BOSS for 5E 2014 .

[@darksavior1187]

I don't think its that playing TTRPGs is uncool now, I think people who found it, most likely through some combination in recent years due to Stranger Things, Critical Role, and the pandemic, cut their teeth on D&D but have been given many reasons to look to other TTRPGs. WotC has fumbled it badly, and constantly incentivizes its fans to look elsewhere.

[@samalock2020]

Around 32:00 about youtubers i dont know if this may cause some drama but a channel by kingogatonton who does pf2e 7 mins or less vids did one on pf2e vs dnd rap battle. the last part on dnd side on what they said to pf2 about youtubers either ppl will laugh and agree or get offended on depending on creator/fan.

[@unknowncomic4107]

I'm not sure that it isn't so much that it isn't "cool". It's more like the DEI-Wokevist-Rainbow-Ponies have taken over and have become the new bullies forcing normal geeks back into the shadows again.

[@אהרוןאלמוג-צ2ב]

Troika! Has a token pull based initiative

[@nicholasromero238]

Not a token pull, but Savage Worlds draws from a deck of cards

[@Sfourtytwo]

Never was. Never will be.

[@HugoGlz56]

Magic is the new Funko Pop.

[@VikingMale]

D&D stopped being cool when they switched to 4th edition.

[@odesseus]

D&D was never *that* cool

[@ericzauche4309]

Try with "would you all like my opinion ladies".

[@Naren25]

While tipping your Fedora

[@Ranziel1]

Never has been

[@davidbudzik5970]

Agree with two of you. LOTR made fantasy culture cool. But Stranger Things made D&D cool. Or at least as cool as these two things could be within pop culture. The OGL had absolutely no effect on D&D being cool or not cool. It only affected people who were already playing it before that. This conversation reminds me of the film, Airheads, which is a horrible film, but it’s funny that, at the end of the film, musicians are admitting things about themselves they’re not proud of and one of the things they admit is, “I played D&D.”

[@thomasace2547]

WotC are making it lame and gay

[@jefR6875]

With all do respect, it is NOT 5.5: ALL the underlying math is the same: AC scaling, DC scaling, Proficiency growth caps, ASI growth caps, etc. You can literally play 2014 classes at the same table as 2024 classes, you can use monster stat blocks from either MM, and the xp purchase encounter builder guidance is exactly the same (with a few tweaks to the difficulty threshholds). Really, the 2024 rulebooks are no different than Tasha's or Xanathar's or Volo's: New Class options, New DM tools, Alternate rules, new monster stat blocks, etc. "But they changed all the classes" you say: So what? So you have two barbarian classes to pick from instead of one. Call the new barbarian class "Warrior" if it makes it less confusing for you. Call rogue "Scoundrel," and Wizard a "Mage," so on an so forth with the rest. They can all still be run at the same table. "But the new barbarian is more powerful than the old barbarian" you say: so what? some classes are more powerful than others. see ranger as evidence. "But they changed stealth rules and added weapon masteries" you say: Rulings, not rules. Those are NOT core system changes. There have always been alternate rulings in 5e (see the 2014 DMG, pages 251-272 to start), and the weapon mastery system is accessible to 2014 classes with just a feat just like spells are accessible to fighters with a feat and medium and heavy armor proficiency is accessible to spellcasters with a feat. Adding another subsystem to the game does not a new edition make. They may have called it 5.5 for shareholders because it is easier than explaining game theory to them, but it is truly just 5e Revised. And before all the naysayers chime in an call me all sorts of nastiness, this is just my opinion and i invite you to express your contrary one below. I don't think you are a terrible person if you disagree with my take, i just dont think enough changed to warrant calling it a different edition. Well wishes to you and your table no matter what homebrew or alternate/optional rules you use.

[@johnharrison2086]

D&D was cool from 2020 to 2023. It had its moment. TTRPGs overall are healthier because of this. Now the Wizard is dead and the age of the Orc (licence) is upon us. If you want to know if your TTRPG is good check if Orcs are in the Monster Manual or Bestiary. If they are not, change systems!

[@FoxItAll]

Ive been playing since AD&D and still DM 3.5e to this day. 4e was so left field and 5th has become odd and woke. Ill stick with 3.5e due to the great transfer from 2nd to 3rd ans the vast amount of material.

[@Lukevapeur]

TTRPGs are still cool amongst normal people. We just don't appreciate the wokus pokus from WoTC. I still run my 5e14 game and I'm thinking of converting it to Stars Without Number. I WAS considering converting it to Starfinder 2e when that's ready, but then... a certain scandal happened that I won't get into because I know Paizo is a friend of the stream.

[@Naren25]

If you are considering Stars Without Number you are, respectfully, not a normal person. You are a heavily enfranchised gamer

[@brandoneckert5096]

Maybe 2% of dnd beyond users. Are making characters in 2024.

[@doloresabernathy9809]

I don’t think it’s cool among the people who used to like it. In NYC it’s cool among wokesters, but they alone cannot support it in my opinion. The gamestore games that you pay for are Disnified and wokified. OG DnD has to be player-organized which is difficult for to assemble from their dwindling friend groups.