Is Ethereum a sh*t coin? - Bitcoin Maximalist answers | Saifedean Ammous and Lex Fridman

[@kitchenlabrat]

Lex needs to come down from this utopian clouds and educate himself about the crypro industy and the history of premines and pumps and dumps/forks these shitcoin devs have done and ruined lives, instead of saying "be nice". Lex is biased and unhappy with Saifedean's atttitude towards shitcoins possibly because he wants to give his friends benefit of the doubt.

[@joemama69448]

💯

[@randyolsen4050]

Lex had Charles Hoskinson on the show in 2021 to pump Cardano and CH absolutely dumped on his followers for a $1 billion exit scam. Nothing but lies

[@charlesmiller6281]

💯👍

[@jebusslaves9297]

Please invite Andreas Antonopolous on the pod for a tech deep dive. Maybe he could clarify these differences from a technical standpoint?

[@CelticKali]

Please! Immediately 😂

[@mattgood3873]

POS means that the largest stakers have more control over network transactions and (possibly) protocol standards. ETH is already centralized enough behind infura, metamask and AWS.. But POS, opens the door for corporations like JPM Chase to control the network. The rich get richer and the average person has no voice or contol. These are facts

[@brotherpete5107]

Asic resistant chains like Ergo solve this. Or are trying to solve this

[@flavioamezcua4057]

This is not true because cardano stake pools give less rewards the larger the pool ,itkeeps it decentralized and fair for bitcoin it’s unfair because u have millionaires buying warehouses full of miners the little guy cant compete with that

[@Rusty_119]

Wow lex. Really good job pushing back in a way to draw more conversation. Amazing stuff keep going

[@dsports4753]

Yeah, this guy's bias is clearly obvious and comparing a PoW or the new EUTXO model as the federal reserve is so asinine. He just doesn't understand the technology, dismissing art explosion and music in NFT market for consumers.

[@aqua123670]

@@dsports4753 his whole identity is built around Bitcoin, he doesn't like seeing other superior thing like Ethereum to take over.

[@channelbitcoin21M]

Saif is correct. Eth is centralized junk. Huge premine.

[@HomeportResidential]

His book "The Bitcoin Standard" is one of the best books I have ever read. This dude explains monetary policy better than anyone I have ever heard!

[@MtnMichael88]

Same, I recc it to everyone as a beginners mind starting point when they’re interested in diving into BTC and how it fits into our future macro system of exchanging value after deep dives on how we’ve exchanged value in the past. Check out Fiat Standard next man!

[@marsenault9683]

😂😂😂😂😂... I wish I could explain to you how f****** comical the idea that Bitcoin with its anti banking anti-government anarcho-capitalist white paper is going to set a standard for banking...😂 You might want to step back and look at the f****** grifter scammy Michael saylor Max keiser clowns surrounding it. It doesn't scale it doesn't work it failed as a payments network over a decade ago. The bis the IMF the World Bank all of these actual systemically important banking institutions will never touch f****** Bitcoin with a 10-foot f****** Pole. That's why the narrative changed so many times. I'm not saying Bitcoin is going to die. The narrative of who created it where it came from as a f****** fantasy. This is the most obvious f****** NSA created Honeypot I've ever seen....

[@marsenault9683]

​@@MtnMichael88😂 it doesn't it has no f****** future within the financial system other than a f****** manipulated Wall Street ETF as a store of value. .

[@ivanhernandez9495]

Book change my perspective on money.

[@SITO-TV]

Here ill save you the time Bitcoin > Ethereum

[@zooride1658]

Lex takes every opportunity possible to say something about the “abyss”

[@Youtube_ban_me]

Yeah because he's secretly gay

[@vera3315]

[@OwenWithAHammer]

Buy Intel

[@RETROEXODUS]

In my opinion, if you're a beginner in stock, just put your money in S&P 500 while you're learning more about other stocks, other asset, and how market works, you dont have to spent couple of hours/day just to learn about it, just keep consistent on how you learn and the amount of time you willing to put for learning about it, and when the time comes by, you will get confidence on how to pick a good stock for yourself, invest in books and spend more time on youtube to learn more about it. I spent almost 5 years learning stocks, but the amount of time i spent per day is just around 20-30 minutes, but thank to that consitency, it helps me to understand almost every single asset that available for us and how it really works. And one more thing, focus on long term rather dan short term, focus on the fundamental analysis about it cause it will gives you comfort, either when it goes down or it goes up, cause it gives you confidence about what you pick and why you pick it. Good luck.

[@shittychicken2095]

Lex hit him on Cardano PoS and he clearly just stumbled all over himself. The truth is that if he had an actual criticism all the research is available for him to criticize at an academic level. Instead he wants to protect his brand as a BTC maximalist. This is true for a lot of BTC shills. I kinda wish Lex would have more technical people on and not pundits.

[@BGIANAKy]

exactly. Dude has no idea what he’s talking about.

[@kilrain_dev]

proof of stake will not be decentralized.

[@BGIANAKy]

@@kilrain_dev would be as much as proof of work is. Not exactly sure how either are different.

[@shittychicken2095]

@@kilrain_dev It already is

[@brodyalden]

This is so right.

[@michaelheisig8386]

Saifedean is right. Bitcoin is the only decentralized network

[@beefyogurt]

AMEN!

[@iamslade3967]

Nothing is decentralized if it was created by human. Even the proof of work is being centralized now.

[@michaelheisig8386]

@@iamslade3967 that is not true. Or can u back it up?

[@adiintel1]

@@iamslade3967 China banned bitcoin the hash rate collapsed they didn't destroy the network they cut the head off it and it grew 2 new heads. doesn't seem so centralized

[@telegramlexfridman1846]

Write me 👆…

[@dhabardhoos]

Lex you need to have gigi on your show to expand upon the technicalities you are curious about. Neither saylor nor Saif have that technical expertise. Maybe give a listen to the recent Preston pysh and gigi episode to gauge how he can add to this conversation.

[@telegramlexfridman1846]

Write me 👆…

[@ocallesp]

I would like to see a talk between Saifedean and Vitalik

[@eratsaby]

Vitalik will destroy him

[@is-ness]

@@eratsabyplease explain

[@marsenault9683]

​@@eratsabyvitalik and his illegally hidden Aiko whale wallets that are owned by bankers? Have you ever heard the nft audio tapes of vitalik and Steven narryoff? 😂 Vitalik isn't the boy wonder you think he is...

[@marsenault9683]

​@@eratsaby Vitalik is SBF with better coding background 😂 Joe Lubid and the entire eth foundation are crooks

[@eratsaby]

@@marsenault9683 I know now, 2 years ago didn’t know 😂😂 I’ll check that audio

[@michaelhandle]

I feel the problem here is that Lex is arguing from a principle (being open minded is important) and Saifedean is dismissive of shitcoins because he already thought it through. It seems that the "conflict" stems from Lex wanting to hear and see the principle acknowledged whereas Saifedean is focussed on arguing for his position. Would have loved for Lex to pushback more granularly about why exactly proof of stake cannot work because there could be a lot of valuable insight from Saifedean on that. Would love a part 2 (with Michael Malice perhaps?)

[@aescubed]

Breedlove as a 6 part series with Lowery (he is a military guy and a National Defense fellow at MIT writing his thesis on Bitcoin aa a defense system, his answer on POW vs POS - POW wins - makea a lot of sense to me).

[@mikebarosh1921]

Lex is so good at non emotionally probing

[@abes1111]

Lex is a computer.

[@carrion_man3700]

Please get Alex Chepurnoy on your show. Russian who founded Ergo. Ergo is PoW, but he is aligned nicely with Charles Hopkinson, who runs Cardano, a PoS chain, as you know.

[@kyleholdman2611]

Very good recommend guest. Ergo is the future.

[@TheStepa85]

Seccond this

[@Lu89m]

9:12 Can Cardano survive? yes-it has survived and thrived through crypto winter and now has millions on ppl in the community with the fastest growing wallets addresses.

[@konversbitcoin]

And yet it is merely a centralised security not solving any problems

[@georgemargaris]

I'm running a full bitcoin node, it's not easy, but perfectly possible for anyone to do so. But has anyone here ever succeeded in running a full ethereum node? Is that even possible?

[@JcFiscus42]

When it transitions to POS it becomes easy for anyone with >32eth to operate their own node and validate the network.

[@JosefJochemPodcast]

I also run a bitcoin node. I would never save in ETH knowing almost of all the nodes run on AWS.

[@danb1618]

@@JcFiscus42 Yes, anyone with 32 or more Eth 😂 what a joke

[@georgemargaris]

@@danb1618 , reminds me of Darkcoin/Dash days with 1000 units to run a masternode. It's so obviously meant to drive price up, and not to "help decentralization" in any way. I am a POW maximalist and think POS was mainly invented to incentivize buying of a coin (and then "locking in" the coins, keeping you from selling). With POW you buy hardware and get rewarded coins but there's fierce competition and you'll barely make a profit. With POS you buy the coin directly and earn the privilege of fix rewards and a promised ROI ..... it sounds so self-serving.

[@alexxxoz]

@@georgemargaris seems like your arguments stem from your investment in BTC and your desire for your ROI. Protectionism aside, I see value in both.

[@NavShay]

The proof of stake of Ethereum has the same flaws that Luna’s algorithmic pairing with USD had. Did you see how quickly that house of cards fell? The same can happen should one group of people control enough of Ethereum. Always prepare for absolute worst case scenario in crypto, that’s the one that usually happens.

[@wanghanshen]

I loved his hesitation when Lex brought up Cardano. Great interview.

[@charlietaylor799]

Haha noticed the same thing, He knows Cardano isn't a shitcoin....and I think it scares him

[@FKnox123]

@@DrDoeg 😂😂😂

[@user-ku2tq1js2v]

Another shit coin

[@bitcoinisfreedommoney.fckt2663]

@@charlietaylor799 Nah fam he wanted to vomit at the stupidity of the question but out of politeness he decided to reply

[@theobeams7083]

@@Czechmate99 along with most of the stock and crypto market. What’s your point

[@Chxkey1]

And now a lot of you are upset because he speaks truth about these shitcoins, all of you have invested deeply into all these things that will eventually turn to nothing

[@areichental]

you can have discussions about whether or not ethereum has a similar consensus mechanism to a central bank, but when you open up the participants that dramatically, and when you enable millions of individuals access to tools usually reserved for banks (lending, staking, etc), I personally call that a win. it may not be the same store of value is bitcoin, but it's definitely a useful tool.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

Notice how Bitcoin lacks the technology for defi. There are no decentralized exchanges on Bitcoin because it doesn't have the capability to have it. Bitcoin wants the same centralized institutions of today built on Bitcoin, make no mistake about it.

[@GaaikeEuwema]

Yeah, we would all love it if Bitcoin provided the same possibilities, but the truth is it doesn't..

[@areichental]

@@GaaikeEuwema I don't mind tools having a limit to their scope. I just would avoid calling all non BTC projects shit coins

[@VantaBlackSheep]

@@GaaikeEuwema there are people working on this. Bringing defi and so on to bitcoin. It will come in due time.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

@@VantaBlackSheep "it will come in time" turns around and says Ethereum fails because The Merge is always delayed.... It's always projection with BTC maxis. Bitcoiners don't want defi. There isn't a single project working on this that Maxis don't call a.shitcoin. Stacks is a shitcoin to maxis

[@MrKobe2011]

Bitcoin pumpers vs Bitcoin deniers is a perfect analogy of American politics right now: zero sum. Hey

[@desertshadow6098]

Great perspective

[@telegramlexfridman1846]

Write me 👆..

[@cab4cash]

This guy isn’t toxic at all.

[@Chxkey1]

Are u being sarcastic lol

[@Dawood-Mushlam]

He’s not toxic he’s truthful.

[@i_accept_all_cookies]

Toxic: someone who says something that hurts your feelings, even if there's some truth to it, but you can't handle the truth.

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

@@Dawood-Mushlam People who use the word "truth" as lightly as you, are not to be trusted.

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

@@i_accept_all_cookies Lol, please tell me your definition of "truth" so I can laugh for the rest of the day.

[@austinwilliams1228]

Stakers can’t control PoS systems any more than miners can control PoW systems. In both cases, it is the node operators that decide which blocks to accept and reject.

[@bubbleboy821]

Yeah ETH is really letting the smaller players in right now with their 32 ETH requirement for a node. Because all the small guys can easily fork up $60k

[@JallyJam]

@@bubbleboy821 hey, you know smart contracts? there's a defi protocol thats tokenizing nodes so you can have fractionalized shares of eth nodes, so people can fork up 5k, is what a decent new bitcoin miner costs if you can even run it profitably in a residential area. Its almost like when you have chains designed to be adaptive that they adapt instead of stagnating on branding and failed l2 solutions. lightning nodes arent even profitable to run, how is that sustainable?

[@theguy9067]

@Vic Birth yeah competing solutions but POS wins in theory. POS allows MORE decentralisation

[@bubbleboy821]

​@@theguy9067 Not the way ETH implements it. It's run by a single "not a corporation or anything" foundation. You can have as much decentralized technology as you want, but if it's being implemented by a single corporation that has the final say regardless of the "democracy" it's all for nothing.

[@bubbleboy821]

@@JallyJam Your 10 watt router isn't profitable to run either, why do you have one of those?

[@rafrokid79]

I still can't understand why people don't understand why bitcoin is different from every other crypto asset

[@brotherpete5107]

it is, but BTC maxies think BTC solves the only problem that DLT can solve

[@is-ness]

@@brotherpete5107😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@xyzmedia5161]

I find Lex philosophizing about irrelevant shit really frustrating

[@illam11]

What about monero

[@stepbystep8525]

We already have banks with the proof of stake system. Why shoud I use another proof of stake coin? The biggest and the best proof of stake coin is dollar!

[@YarikSychov]

You don't need to stake anything to run a Bitcoin node. Nodes are responsible for consensus, not pow providers (miners).

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

Lol, but you need to deploy and risk a ton of money to be actually profitable. It's entry barrier is still biassed towards the rich.

[@Nifris]

Saifedea and Charles would be interesting af

[@charlietaylor799]

agreed!

[@1q3er5]

Charles would shit on this dude

[@d3ly51d]

"Keep an open mind but not so open that your brain falls out."

[@bwhli]

This guy is the definition of a maximalist.

[@UnderstandingBitcoin]

You will be too when you figure it out

[@channelbitcoin21M]

He just understands money and Bitcoin.

[@sebastianholmnielsen8924]

Loved this guy's book but was very disappointed reading his tweets and now hearing his discourse here. He's clearly dug himself into a ditch and getting progressively more toxic the longer DeFi survives and compounds the innovation that Bitcoin started. Why can't a person hold both a store of value as well as the computational base layer asset along with market share in the applications running within the machine? It could all be combined into a much more healthy ecosystem if people could let go of the cultist/tribalist/us vs. them mentalities. It's not a sport is it?

[@Lu89m]

Because he is OVER invested to the point that nothing else in his mind can compete with his investment

[@carsoncalderwood772]

I wish Lex would have pushed back more because there's some obvious holes in his argument and that's why he started talking about biases because this guy can't see over his own biases to give a well thought out rational argument

[@mpeg2000]

I've found the shitcoiner 😬

[@zedwik321]

What holes are in his argument?

[@carsoncalderwood772]

@@zedwik321 the two main ones that jumped out to me where the centralized governance and the decentralization issues. If no one in ether can control 51% of the network and it spread out as well as it is then why is proof of work better? He never goes in and explains that. Furthermore, Bitcoin also has a centralized code governance agency like ethereum and they technically could make changes. The software is not decentralized in its coding and they're both open source so you can check him so I don't see how there's a difference there either. I wish he would have been pushed back on a little more to explain those obvious similarities between the two to anyone who has more than a cursory knowledge of the platforms

[@jasonelwoodhanna8021]

After years debating with myself and other people if there is a place for anything other than proof of work and bitcoin. Ive firmly come up with the answer there is no use case for anything RIGHT NOW other than Pow and bitcoin. Proof of work is the consensus that ensures decentralization, to control any proof of stake system you just need to print enough money to meet the demand and that just sounds to me like the extension of the dollar system . I don't see a single use case yet on ethereum or any other blockchain that has a use case, and if there ever was a snap of a finger would be all thats needed to dictate the rules. Don't be clouded by the promise of wealth guys. This isnt about being rich if you want to be rich buy a stock in the stock market, its way safer.

[@JT__Media]

He needs to learn about PPOS

[@CaledoniaKambo]

Algorand is the way

[@konversbitcoin]

Or you need to learn about POW

[@FermentedGrumpyGrapeSqueezit]

He makes some good points but its kinda hard to negate eth being like the internet of crypto. Like he mentioned we're in the beginning stages here. We need everything to play out. The good and the bad. I just don't think we should be stifling new emerging technology in any manner

[@APRA30]

The gas fee’s on ethereum are fucking ridiculous. I had to pay $120 in fee’s just to send money once. Then the other week (now this is the most extreme) transaction/gas fees went to $7500

[@FermentedGrumpyGrapeSqueezit]

@@APRA30 totally agree I think its mainly a spaghetti code problem. Could be fixed but at the expense of miners who keep it secure so tough situation for eth. I agree I paid something similar last year to get into staking for AGI. Got me good lol

[@Au496]

I think the debate is more so about economics rather than platforms. Eth is a great platform to build-on, no different than any platforms out there. If eth is considered a Security like a publicly listed company where investors like you and I could invest in the company, then no issues. A good thought exercise would be to think What If Amazon, or Microsoft, would be like if it played by Ethereum rules. No way can Amazon or Microsoft can make their own currency.

[@leopoldo4900]

like he said, innovation is great (doesn't matter where it comes from) but there´s a lot of marketing in Eth imo.

[@TimBlokdijk1983]

I have a perpetual motion machine I would like to sell to you.

[@Tweston3ny]

Does Lex understand proof of stake?

[@guhaneshkumar128]

The stuttering started once Cardano came up lol 9:03

[@charlietaylor799]

haha yep

[@spitfirez89]

POS is way more susceptible to being centralized than POW. The single fact that the largest stakeholders have to power to verify transactions speaks volumes of centralized authority, not to mention the ETH foundation acting like they don't have any real influence in the protocol but in reality, they have a huge say in how the blockchain is run. ETH def seems to have a future in the crypto space but to say ETH is just as decentralized as BTC is complete nonsense.

[@Lu89m]

You clearly don’t know there are different types of Proof-of-stake mechanisms, like delegated Proof-of-stake, where the pools are NONCUSTODIAL and do not keep the keys to coins ppl stake on them.

[@spitfirez89]

@@Lu89m if you actually took time to read my comment you would see the criticism I have of POS is pointed towards how the ETH blockchain is run. Every single point I brought up is true when it comes to ETH. ETH is not as decentralized as BTC and to sit there and tell me otherwise shows your lack of understanding of the space.

[@Lu89m]

@@spitfirez89 thanks for clarifying

[@cul8terworld]

The miners of Bitcoin are highly centralized. They are the "small group of people".

[@SerPapus]

That doesn’t matter. The point of mining is to reward those who look fir the cheapest energy

[@cul8terworld]

@@SerPapus it does matter. The miners could collaborate and attack the network and prevent certain transactions from going through or reverse certain transactions

[@cul8terworld]

@@SerPapus The answer to the problem is an asic resistance algorithm. That will never happen though because the miners have a lot of money invested and they have a lot of power

[@SerPapus]

@@cul8terworld no no they cant stop it … bitcoin is perfect asf😈

[@shableep]

Not only that, miners then control how Bitcoin develops. They will influence Bitcoin so that it continues to benefit them, the miners, not the people. It's trading one small group for another, but at least the proof of stake model is cheaper and doesn't require so much energy. And it's also open to anyone with money, instead of miners who build their own proprietary hardware that others sometimes can't even buy.

[@toleratinguncertainty4959]

Interesting discussion. I'm glad Lex pushed back a bit. The comparison to AI is an interesting one. Proof of Stake coins are still in their infancy and their application is unknown. But Saifedean is clearly dogmatic in his thinking about other cryptos. I think Lex was spot on about how btc maxis can get annoyed from legitimate sh*tcoins and ignore the possibility that maybe a handful of PoS coins will actually have real utility. I agree Bitcoin is a great asset in many ways, but that doesn't mean PoS coins can't have value in solving different types of problems.

[@zedwik321]

I think Saifedean has been watching people for 8 years over promise and not deliver. However during that same time they did get rich themselves. What aside from NFTs have emerged from PoS? In what way are smart contracts actually enhancing trustless value exchange? I'm genuinely curious.

[@davycrockett8886]

@@zedwik321 Firstly Ethereum is decentralized so it takes time to change, but that does not mean it hasn't been changing. Secondly NFTs have nothing to do with PoS. The answer to your third question, could be decentralized exchanges, which are much more secure and censorship resistant. There are also things like decentralized loans that are highly useful, decentralized betting systems which are less corruptible. I think there are many use cases for smart contracts, even stable coins. Ethereum has good stable coins, unlike Bitcoin which supported Luna/ UST.

[@LyingProbably]

You want to try to pick which of the 10,000 plus shitcoins is the one that actually solves a problem like bitcoin does in a true decentralised way? Yes theres a 1% chance that something comes along just as good if not better than bitcoin, of course there is. But the level of conviction and shilling and confidence seen in the crypto space is way overrepresentative of that 0.0000001% chance their coin is "the one". Perspective, people..

[@Elliott_Elliott]

@@davycrockett8886 Ethereum is not decentraliced, it had a 70% premine in which tokens were distributed to investors before the public launch. This is fundamentally different from Bitcoin which basically ran one year before it even had a price. Many of these premined tokens are now by stakeholders in the ETH foundation and if they switch to PoS they are basically the oligarchs of the network. Not decentraliced in my opinion.

[@davycrockett8886]

@@Elliott_Elliott Initial Bitcoin mining was worse than a crowdsale. When Bitcoin started just a handful of friends mined a huge amount of coins - that is why Satoshi got WAY more than Vitalik got. The whole pre-mine narrative is extremely misleading. Also having several ways of aquiring the initial coins actually is decentralized distribution. Only technical miners had/have access to mining. That is why imo Ethereum had a better launch than Bitcoin.

[@thassil0]

Lex mentioned briefly mentions a possible solution at 8:55. Cardano has a working proof a stake system with smart contracts, is one of the most decentralized blockchains - on many metrics - and is just in the process of finalizing their fully community driven decentralized governance with many parts already operational on main net - including project funding via catalyst. I still have - by far - most confidence in Bitcoin, but Cardano for me is Bitcoin 3.0 with very similar design decisions. I hope it works out!

[@SerPapus]

Cardano doesnt have a working product

[@thassil0]

@@SerPapus By what measure? How do you come to this conclusion? May be you are not up to date.

[@dragonbeardable]

@@SerPapus ETH doesn't either. What does eth do that fiat doesn't do? ETH doesn't fix anything.

[@SerPapus]

@@dragonbeardable NFTS? Idk dont care im a ₿ maxi

[@portchanel]

Guys there's this network called Elrond network uses a safer version of PoS, incredibly low fees, fast tsx speed, same limited supply as BTC check it out if you have the time 😉

[@MrEvilyogurt]

I understand his point but can’t you say the same about proof of work. It seems to be getting more centralised with the formation of mining companies. I do believe PoStake isn’t the best as it keeps you dependant on that blockchains currency rather than using outside chain items like gpus/hard drives ect.. I don’t really agree with his points about central reserves because the same thing happens with proof of work computing power control

[@fergus247]

Marathon bought almost $1B worth of miners, and they are about 2% of the hashrate now. Its a really big market, and i dont see how a single actor can control it since it requires energy. So you must spread out in order to get cheap energy because each power plant only produces a limited amount. Being forced to spread out creates logistics problems the bigger you are . But who knows

[@MrEvilyogurt]

@@adge4579 haha yeah I pretty much agree too , I found similar beliefs when I was researching for my dissertation on blockchain/smart contract technologies. Spent a lot of time looking at the differences with PoW, PoStake , PoSpaceTime ect. They all seem to result in different trade offs(environmental impacts, security, resources and so on) i guess similar to the blockchain dilemma(decentralisation, scale, speed) . Which I find interesting. But 100% agree that he’s just so emotional on bitcoin that he’s just as bad as the “shitcoiners” as he calls them haha .

[@mac2196]

@@fergus247 The systemic problem I see is PoW benefits from economics of scale. The larger the operation you maintain, the better networked, the more disposable capital you have, etc. will all produce a higher profit margin on your mining operation. As we've learned with Capitalism, over time this will result in a few, centralized places that mining will occur. Burning massive amounts of electricity produces a high footprint that is easily spotted by nation-states, and we've seen double-digit percents of the hashpower wiped off the map instantaneously, because of either local power grid failures, or nation-states taking action by force, either directly, or indirectly via legislation. PoS doesn't benefit from economies of scale. Regardless of your stake, you will get the same rate of return per staked coin. The electrical/heat footprint is minimal to the point of invisible, and can be reprovisioned with essentially no friction, should there be some kind of infrastructure interruption.

[@MrEvilyogurt]

@@fergus247 yeah for bitcoin it’s unlikely but we have had a few cases where mining pool companies where very close to 51% control of the network in the past. It’s unlikely but companies could join together to gain more control and share profits. I’m not 100% sure nowadays it’s been a while since I’ve researched it. Not seen the marathon buying $1B yet so I’m a bit outdated haha.

[@stereodachs]

Miners are only providers. It‘s about the full nodes , bro ! You are wrong here !! Listen the whole podcast !

[@JustSavageThings]

How is Bitcoin doing in El Salvador?

[@TheBrianna4555]

Care to update your views on El Salvador?

[@JustSavageThings]

@@TheBrianna4555 No

[@travismonk2804]

Imagine believing there's only one way to solve a problem

[@davidfloid2723]

and ETH is not one of those.

[@nGUNNARp]

the way eth solves the financial problem is "trust vitalik"...

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

@@davidfloid2723 Which of the many problems are we even talking about? You guys have surrendered your minds to herd thinking.

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

@@nGUNNARp Oh, reductio ad absurdum. A very common fallacy.

[@davidfloid2723]

@@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain ETH solves absolutely nothing but Vitalik's wallet.

[@finelliott2440]

Lex told the guy what he means by amusement.. be careful stating what others mean..

[@telegramlexfridman1846]

Write me 👆…

[@Dschinghiss]

That´s just disingenious from Saifedean. He talks about Governance, how Staking is basically the same as what the Fed does, in that the stakeholders decide what to do with the system and they can be corrupted. But he completely neglects the fact that Bitcon Improvement Proposals, basically "Bitcoin Governance", is the same, it just uses hashpower for voting, which is literally the "stake" (in this case: work) in Bitcoin. Proof of Stake replaces that physical work with a virtual one, i.e. holding of the token. The whole point of Proof of Work was that you need some sort of investment to do it, so that not everybody can just join and fuck with the system. That investment in the case of Bitcoin is energy, and time. In a world where energy consumption is becoming quite a problem it is only natural to seek a substitution for that, hence Proof of Stake. It´s not a perfect workaround, but saying that all PoS systems are shitcoins is bananas.

[@Elliott_Elliott]

I thought node operators decide which code to run not miners, so actually node operators decide over Bitcoins changes not miners. (See 2017 blocksize wars in which 90%+ of miners favoref bigger blocks)

[@SamJones1337]

@@Elliott_Elliott you're right, miner signaling is not voting.

[@Dschinghiss]

@@Elliott_Elliott yes, and no. Nodes/Pools decide beforehand on what to vote (Yes/No) and miners decide whether they join or not (to basically give them their vote). It´s kinda like a party system where you give a fraction your vote. But it happens via mining. Mining/hashpower IS the vote.

[@Elliott_Elliott]

@@Dschinghiss Still skeptical about that to be honest. Would you agree that ultimately Bitcoin is what the majority of node operators decide on ruinning on their nodes? Like in 2017 90%+ of miners wanted to have bigger blocks but they were scared of the UASF... wouldn't you agree then that node operators have the last say?

[@brad4231]

This guy is everything that’s wrong with people now. A know-it-all who won’t attentively listen to anyone else’s view of things.

[@fergus247]

So you just attacked his person without making an argument. I think you are the "know it all" and hates anyone with a different opinion

[@esser7678]

🤣🤔🤑🤓

[@nicobr00]

Well, he understands the tech, he made up his mind on it and he's sticking to it. Nothing wrong with that. He's not forcing you to buy BTC over ETH or any other coin.

[@dannyarcher6370]

Read: This guy won't accept my poorly-formed arguments.

[@zedwik321]

@@nicobr00 More importantly he doesn't have influence. If he was an ETH maxi with a huge stake he would have influence.

[@Handstandin]

We demand a richard heart interview lmao

[@1q3er5]

I'd like that...I don't know what to make of him but he's an interesting dude

[@Handstandin]

@@1q3er5 yes he is lol I'd like to see someone who's actually intelligent push back on him 😂😂

[@UnderstandingBitcoin]

He’s busy dealing with lawsuits for fraud. Enjoy your scam token going to zero. Stop trusting scammers.

[@michael2275]

Bitcoin forever king. ETH etc. is trash.

[@tommybull6578]

Eth flip btc ?

[@BigCappuh]

Also, PoS has slashing to highly penalize bad actors. I don’t think the fed has that

[@evanpickle]

As much as he knows about Bitcoin and I agree with him about Bitcoin he simply doesn’t understand the difference between Bitcoin and what smart contract platforms are trying to become. They are not trying to be Bitcoin. He simply has a willful lack of understanding.

[@JosefJochemPodcast]

Smart contracts are great but I think he focuses so much on bitcoin because it solves a much bigger problem. Bitcoin will eat most of the bond market, savings accounts, a good chunk of real estate, and equity indexes because those things really are just modern savings accounts/stores of value. Bitcoin is superior. ETH might automate some contracts? What’s wrong with contracts as they currently exist?

[@JosefJochemPodcast]

By which I mean, is a slightly more automated contract system more valuable than having a piece of property that can protect your life savings forever? I’m willing to bet the latter has a much larger market cap in the long run even if it’s clunky and “slow”.

[@joeg4609]

he’s talking about scaling. ETH has a huge issue with gas fees and scaling and their solution to that is to bring in centralization through POS and basically become AWS but worse

[@evanpickle]

I don’t dispute Bitcoins value as to what it is and will do for money around the world in allowing for the sovereign accumulation of wealth that can be passed down through the generations. However, Bitcoin can do what it is meant to do and still allow for the visions of other software that will allow for scalable security of any and all important information around the world on a chain to show identity, ownership, and all important tracking of any information that governments currently have centralized and stored. Essentially what Cardano aims to do is create a chain where information can become a large robust decentralized information hub to prove ownership and identity as well as a whole litany of other major use cases to which government currently holds all this information and change it to how the current “trusted” actors see fit. Scalable for the whole world to use. Long term goals but if it’s realized then it will save on so much costs. Billions of dollars currently spent to keep track and keep order of information that can be done better. Bitcoin can be money for it’s purpose. But like I’ve said, no one is aiming to replace Bitcoins use case with these amazing platforms.

[@Elliott_Elliott]

@@JosefJochemPodcast The 'a piece of property that can protect your life savings' is a $100 trillion TAM, much bigger than smart contracts. Most importantly it is much more of a winner takes it all market than smart contracts. Smart contracts will be done on various chains, but money is a winner takes it all business (see $ dominance or gold dominance).

[@watjos02]

So they are cars? Didn’t cars come first. Not sure that analogy is great

[@davidrodrigues43]

This guy defending his maxi bag lmao

[@zedwik321]

The difference is he doesn't influence the protocol/network. If you hold a large stack in ETH and are a maxi then you do have influence. That is what makes it a security.

[@MagicTheKrakening]

@@zedwik321 yea but the core developers have influence over the network. GO and try to make a commit in the bitcoin repo... you'll be quickly banned just like I was. That's ultra centralized.

[@loh1870]

There is no second best

[@is-ness]

Thanks .eth guy

[@byzantinecaptain]

Bitcoin is a bag? 😂

[@c.p.1090]

Prof of stakeholders does not guarantee non bad actors for decades. So many examples in last one year itself where quirky leaders banned certain people or transactions or did things that messed up their chains.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

Lex, you NEED to have Justin Drake on to talk about Ethereum.

[@bfrandsen1]

I've never understood this argument form Bitcoin maxies. In the end Bitcoin is run by the miners and the 4 largest pools make up over 50% of the mining power. How is that not a centralization of power? Every system has flaws but proof of stake seems to have more a future than proof of work, imo. Truth is only time will tell.

[@davidj6755]

Bitcoin is not run by miners, it’s run be the nodes. This was proven out during the blockchain wars when many of the wealthiest people in the Bitcoin space and 80% of miners tried to push an unpopular update and failed.

[@bfrandsen1]

@@davidj6755 is this when they created bitcoin cash?

[@davidj6755]

@@bfrandsen1 yep

[@simonmasson-dupras3946]

both have a place for diferent reason .. we dont have to be one sided that being said with the luna crash i am learning

[@JallyJam]

@@davidj6755 hmmmm so the people who record the block chain on cheap nodes control the network? so why does that makes POS bad?

[@dedenapraia]

This aged like wine. Somehow the only use case of Ethereum so far, has been to allow people to create shitcoins and scams left and right. This podcast changed my views on how Bitcoin is a unique monster. Forget "crypto", study only Bitcoin. Thank you Lex, thank you Saifedean

[@curious_one1156]

cardano is a promising concept. Study blockchain, not just bitcoin.

[@danielleslie2218]

Saffadeen didn’t push back on PoS as hard as he could have.

[@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain]

You just want to see someone more mentally capable asserting the reality you're invested on, right?

[@TheBrianna4555]

​@@wereNeverToBeSeenAgain "Accuse others that of which you are guilty"

[@charlesmiller6281]

The more Lex talks, the more certain I get that he either doesn’t listen, or take seriously, or understand what his guest is saying. It’s like he has his list of wordy rambling questions stuffed full of sophisticated sounding words and he is just gonna spew them out no matter what. I’ve seen a lot and still searching for any indication he understands a damn thing he’s heard. From anyone!

[@GaaikeEuwema]

I don't get his point.. some pos have thousands of validators.. they reach consensus, like the Bitcoin miners, the only difference is how they get selected to produce the block. why is he saying some small group of people are in control of the money.. is he saying cardano is centralized? I guess he's just clueless on this because it doesn't interest him..

[@yogawithandy]

Have you heard of Larry Fink? He is onboard with the Ethereum heavyweights. Just recently, rumor has it that Blackrock (Larry Fink) was in on taking Luna down. Do you think that Ethereum is not going to be influenced or even bossed around by Larry? It’s not just about the validation process.

[@GaaikeEuwema]

@@yogawithandy governance is important and no PoS protocol has decentralized governance yet. When it will be truly decentralized nobody will care about Larry. Just like it doesn't matter if blackrock was behind the crash. Luna was a flawed protocol. Check out "crypto critics corner" on KZbin, if you want to know why. PoS should be protected against attacks. In PoW it's more winner takes all, because miners can attack competing chains and profit from that. Attacking the largest PoS chain right now will cost you around 20 billion, which you will lose in the process..when the chains grow bigger, it will even become impossible.

[@yogawithandy]

@@GaaikeEuwema Let's put it this way. If you think Dr Saifedean Ammous is clueless then I suggest you write a book on PoS is better than PoW. And while you are at it check out how much influence Vitalik has over at Ethereum and then tell us which individual has any power over at bitcoin?

[@Khelben81PT]

No one is actually claiming PoS to be better (whatever better is). It just has to be as secure as PoW for PoS to make sense to be used due to the energie efficiency it provides. Cardano's Ouroboros consensus mechanism is mathematically proven to be secure. It's the 2nd most cited academic paper about cryptocurrencies and blockchain (386 citations). I suggest Dr Saifedean to prove that it's not.

[@yogawithandy]

@@Khelben81PT The debate is not just about which is more secure. It has a lot to do with the fact that with PoS you have people with great influence who earn “rent” for doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. With PoW you have to work. A lot of work. And no one person or company has any significant influence. The fiat system is essentially a PoS system. People (wall street and the like) effectively earn staking rewards just because they are the closest to the money printers. Same for Vitalik, Charles and their gang members.

[@siomaaa]

Not interesting or nuanced arguments at all

[@TylahKwin]

This is the point where I strongly disagree with Saifedean. PoS is nothing like what central banks do, it can still be just as decentralized if not more than PoW, stakers on the consensus layer cannot exert control over the network like he says. You can argue that dPoS like in Avalanche and Cardano it is a centralizing points and give special privileges to delegates, but that is not the design for Ethereum PoS which is different than any other currently running PoS consensus algorithm. Ethereum PoS allows for anybody to more easily run a node and profit more equitably than PoW without the need for economies of scale for hardware and access to cheap energy. The one thing I wish Lex would have brought up is the long term diminishing security budget for Bitcoin; in my view for Bitcoin to maintain long term security it needs to break the 21M hardcap limit and/or move to PoS with a feedback control mechanism for supply like Ethereum post EIP-1559 and PoS.

[@bubbleboy821]

The requirement for an ETH node is 32 ETH. Does anyone here have 32 ETH they want to lock up for a year?

[@hnaku8748]

I'd listen more if the guy actually provided the demerits to the PoW system too. Every point of his was pro-PoW, while only addressing the negatives of PoS. Not that I favor one side, but I like a fair argument. PoW v PoS has been heavily debated and there's no clear winner for now. But both do have ups and downs from what my limited knowledge understands. It's a shame tribalism hinders our progress of discussion though.

[@watjos02]

Proof of stake you go for Ada and Egld

[@abes1111]

Kadena bro way better

[@watjos02]

@@abes1111 I’m not a fan but everyone has their own preference

[@Dillonthewinner]

Talking like he invented proof of work smh

[@kevinnnnn702]

He literally didn’t do that at all. He’s just saying historically the best forms of money have been those that cannot be controlled by a central source and are hard to produce. I’m heavily invested into ETH and BTC, but I do agree with Saifedean that POW is better because it’s harder money to make.

[@Au496]

Terrible comment, not at all based on what was said or discussed. Try to employ a method called ‘Active Listening’, it’ll help you pay attention to the discussion without your internal biases clouding what you ‘hear’.

[@dannyarcher6370]

Huh? Listen again or go back to puling wire.

[@zettelkastendev3760]

well, since satoshi is in hiding, or „not available“, others have to represent

[@PvMLad]

Proof of stake is not the same as the government, that would be more like proof of authority (that solana uses), the crucial difference being that - in proof of stake the people that have the ability to mint new coins is anyone in the network, which is different to how the fed prints money, since me and you can't print more dollars. Proof of authority on the other hand requires elevated permissions that not everyone gets in order run a node and mint new coins (in the same way that the fed has elevated permissions and therefore they're allowed to run a money printer).

[@theguy9067]

This guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about with POS. Completely closed minded because his bags rely on him misunderstanding POS. The concept of POS should be MORE decentralised than POW. You simply can't make money mining bitcoin without a massive initial investment that 99% of people don't have, understanding this leads you to understand that POW mining leads to massive centralisation and soon enough, mark my words, mining will only take place in a single region of the world. POS allows ANYBODY to stake assets in a pool, they're incentivized to to do this. There are multiple ways to artificially produce price increases in any given UNIT/THING other than POW. Lowering yearly minting percentage and/ or burning tokens/ stake(which removes tokens from circulation). I can stake a small amount in a pool and contribute to the network. You simply can't do that with bitcoin/ POW. He clearly doesn't use defi and only operates in his theoretical world with a blanket over his eyes. There are many examples of daps that have taken off. They might not be fully decentralised apps but they are apps on somewhat decentralised systems. Centralisation/ decentralisation is not a binary, it's a spectrum. Nothing will ever be "fully" decentralised

[@abanger]

Saif's defense of Bitcoin and attacks on Ethereum are based on faulty logic and cultish behavior. He's really bad for the crypto space and I look forward to his mental gymnastics when Ethereum inevitably flips Bitcoin.

[@watsup1506]

This is literally all your opinion...

[@watjos02]

Eth is stagnant and can’t scale

[@abanger]

@@watjos02 You're clearly not following the explosive development in the Ethereum space. Go look at the ETHDenver channel if you don't believe me

[@Elliott_Elliott]

There is no Crypto space lmao

[@b00m3rh4nd_sol]

POW is energy backed ; what is POS backed by? Have we not learned anything?

[@SAL-fs1mr]

PoS is backed by the rich elite who hold the majority of stake. In other words, PoS is oligarchy.

[@LilPearse]

At the end of the day there is only one truth. The market speaks for itself, your opinion that you try to force onto others does not matter.

[@odytrice]

His argument against proof of stake is weak. The people with the most stake in Bitcoin (Aka mining pools and developers) are the ones in charge of the network. There will always be people in charge otherwise Chaos ensues. Bitcoin saw this with the blocksize wars. 51% of the hashpower belongs to 4 mining pools. Whether or not an update to the protocol flies is dependent on about a dozen mining pool operators. Proof of stake just replaces the scarce resource (Mining Hardware) with the crypto itself. All the same rules still apply. I will say though that there is a subtle but powerful difference between Crypto (Proof of Work/Stake) and the current Banking system. A kid in Africa doesn't need "Permission" to use the network or participate in the network. The network is open and in that case is fair. That's the most important part.

[@natebrune3779]

"The people with the most stake in Bitcoin (Aka mining pools and developers) are the ones in charge of the network." This isn't true. If they hardforked the network in a way we disagreed with (updating the blocksize), we would simply not update our nodes and continue using bitcoin as usual. Only downside is they might 51% attack our network I don't think a situation like that has ever occurred.

[@odytrice]

@@natebrune3779 that's not how it works. Because they have 51% of the hash rate, they will create more blocks faster than your nodes. And then your chain becomes the fork

[@SystolicLion]

Proof of stake is NOT a consensus mechanism guys, it is a Sybil defense mechanism. POW is both because of the Nakamoto consensus mechanism. The criticism of this guest on POS therefore makes no sense because he does not addresses the consensus mechanism but keep referring to the Sybil defense mechanism which has very little to do with centralisation. In short I don’t think he has any clue what he is talking about…

[@garylake1676]

What I find counterintuitive, is why Crypto has been very weak when The West is effectively at war with Russia.

[@GenkiDamaSSJ]

Well with $250B in market cap, I don't have any invested in this shit coin but I'm still scared about the systemic risk.

[@obaone]

Anyone who’s a maxi take their opinion with a pinch of salt

[@abes1111]

Please explain where hes wrong?

[@michael2275]

Except the maxi's are largely right...full cycle bitcoin is always the best performer...

[@obaone]

@@abes1111 Not saying his wrong just a skewed perspective

[@obaone]

@@michael2275 Being a maxi isn't exclusively tied to bitcoin, u can be an Eth or Cardano maxi

[@essassasassaass]

please bring DER GIGI to your podcast he has the technical knowledge!

[@sagesingh]

Why can enemies not exchange ETH?

[@sawitonline7998]

When Cardono was brought up he hesitated a little bit he knows cardano proves him wrong, Then he states Cardano centralized which is wrong

[@Ace-bh8lm]

Not saying I agree with him on everything but cardono is more centralized. Btc and ETH are the most decentralized on the market

[@SerPapus]

Cardano is a literal shit coin

[@thoms4092]

@@Ace-bh8lm this is true in some respects, but only until governance is phased into Cardano with the HFC, then Cardano will be FAR more decentralised than Bitcoin and Ethereum combined. Cardano has been designed from the ground up to be the most decentralised solution possible.

[@mpeg2000]

Cardano promised a lot but needs to deliver first.

[@sawitonline7998]

@@thoms4092 not sure where people get most centralized from

[@mrtimbles]

This is actually a maxi you can have some kind of a discussion with. He got some points, but also very salty on the altcoins. Not much to say about cardano, because it might be the first one to get it right

[@mauriceguiney1200]

His continuous scoffing says a lot....

[@nighttrain1565]

BTC, KDA, FLUX. You're welcome.

[@thebryanhigh]

Broo. Flux is going to be soooo huge.

[@sittingdingo1]

But KDA has dropped massively of late. Massively.

[@edenbh3609]

@@sittingdingo1 that's because it's a nothing Blockchain (at least currently) that was pumped on Reddit. You welcome

[@nighttrain1565]

@@sittingdingo1 all the more reason to buy. Successful Blockchains aren't effected by price. The only true decentralized functioning cryptos out there are BTC, kda, and flux. And KDA is technically the only blockchain that can scale and do what ethereum does while having the security of Bitcoin

[@nighttrain1565]

@@edenbh3609 I am curious as to what you think is a "something blockchain" if not Bitcoin and flux or KDA please entertain the rest of us with your jokes

[@ryananation]

I’d like to hear Brad Garlinghouse debate this guy

[@UnderstandingBitcoin]

Lol he’s living like a billionaire on money he stole from retail…. you shitcoiners trust too much

[@Mrdachi87]

1000 wallets own 40% of the current supply of Bitcoin, and the fact that mining the coin has become so expensive it just means that more BTC will flow to the richest people. The funny thing is that I've realised that most of the BTC maxis don't even have a lot of BTC, the whales don't talk, they just have their price controlling mechanism. BTC is quite centralised, if a certain group of people can control a huge chunk of it's supply to the market then that means there is a lot of centralisation there. Just think about OPEC and oil, that is what is eventually going to happen to BTC, a cartel is going to control it.

[@lejontajones]

Ur getting it lex stay positive

[@wayne_george]

He’s wrong about mining. The average Joe cannot mine Bitcoin. I’d guess that it’s almost impossible to meaningfully mine without governments knowing therefore PoW is also at risk from corruption

[@awp24]

He gives literally zero criticism about actual dapps.

[@zionsky3342]

what people think they believe and what they actually believe is very different and both are manipulated.

[@telegramlexfridman1846]

Write me 👆..

[@luigiborla77]

you don't need to keep an open mind, you got to learn how to reason

[@bitsanity]

Bitcoin and Ethereum are different things. Bitcoin doesn't do smart contracts, Ethereum does. Bitcoin is an honest system for /storing/ value and that's good. Ethereum is better at /using/ value, and that should be ok too. Monero and Secret are better than both at being fungible - that should be ok. It's a polymorphic world.

[@davidj6755]

Bitcoin has always had smart contracts. The lightning network operates on them. The difference between bitcoin smart contracts and say Ethereum is that Bitcoin smart contracts are not Turing complete, meaning they allow for conditional logic, but not loops. Omitting loops was an intentional decision by the bitcoin community because they create a vulnerability for denial of service attacks.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

@@davidj6755 imo the lack of Turing completeness means they are not smart. Bitcoin has SOME programmability, but it is so limited it doesn't allow for most of what defi is and will be. Multi-sig programmability isn't Smart.

[@brav3hearthalo189]

Still waiting for a dApp to emerge? What a joke. dApps exist with more users than bitcoin has lmfao. Yes there are a lot of BTC holders but no one is using it. This guy is the worst of the worst of the BTC community. To act like ETH and BTC can’t coexist is a joke.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

Exactly. ENS alone is already pulling in more revenue than the whole of Bitcoin!

[@michael2275]

ETH is a joke

[@ReneSalasDesign]

@@michael2275 ETH still up 275% against BTC over the last 2 years. Funny.

[@michael2275]

@@ReneSalasDesign ETH never breached the prior cycle high in ETHBTC. Now we head into a bear market. ETHBTC looks set to dump along with the rest of the trash coins.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

@@michael2275 BTC is stuck in 2014 and has zero development because it's community is filled with trash people. There is a reason why Ethereum has all the developers, all the projects, and all the fees.

[@Manu-lc4ob]

How did Bitcoin become so corrupted by maximalism.. This is not healthy.

[@Ball_Chat_FC]

Ask the Terra/LUNA holders if BTC is corrupted

[@Hshsuiiien]

I don’t think the function of ETH is to be a currency or to trade value. He is totally mis-representing the purpose of ETH.

[@koral1842]

Yep, like pretending to copyright jpegs of monkeys.

[@A7Lopez]

Now have him debate Richard hart

[@adamantiumbomb]

When can we buy some "Lex coin"???....I'm all in...take my $$$

[@Dawood-Mushlam]

Every single crypto rug pull & scam has been done with ERC-20 tokens on the Ethereum network. Is ETH a shit coin? 100% yes!

[@steveg219]

It is clear that Satoshi’s design requires Proof of Work as the investment required is a key attribute of the way Bitcoin functions. This does not make Proof of Stake bad, or wrong, but it should not be represented as somehow equal to Bitcoin.

[@GodHandKilla]

Proof of stake means those with the most money in the system get to write the rules, which is how the current financial system runs, there's a very clear conflict of interest there that incentivises corruption

[@steveg219]

@@GodHandKilla exactly

[@fostee1]

Vitalik payin off Lex. POS = “I trust in Vitalik”. Ethereum = unregistered security