Is FFXIV too Hard in Dawntrail? A Discussion

[@Voicelet]

As a pure casual who don't even do extreme trials, this level of difficulty is really appreciated. It's fun to continue playing these content over and over, and it's also fun to see people fail initially then overcome them eventually by themselves.

[@Frostbyte115]

As someone who does Savage level... It's fun to go into the new dungeons. They aren't a slog, they are enjoyable. As a healer main I get a giggle when people actually die but I have to work harder. It's fun

[@ShermTank7272]

This is a very healthy mindset to have. Vulns are okay, deaths are okay, even wipes are okay. FFXIV content, especially casual content, is designed to be beaten. As long as you learn something, even one tiny thing, from what happened to cause that vuln/death/wipe, then it is unequivocally a good thing. The fear of failure shouldn't be an impetus to make content easier.

[@ngwoo]

Also casual, but this little jump in challenge convinced me to finally try a current extreme. That first clear ended up being the most fun I've ever had with the game.

[@prof_antimony]

@@ngwoo I agree, this jump in diff finally got me into Worqor Lar Dor Extreme and I cleared it tenth try, really pleased with that

[@anteprs7908]

you the second casual i ever heard this from most of us casual dont agree with this but you do you

[@200000adam]

One of my best dungeon experiences was Halatali(Hard) when 4 sprout first timers (including me) had to figure out what was going on with that boss where you had to pull a lever to create a temporary damage reduction field, otherwise all but the tank would get 1-shot, maybe 2-shot. So we just started talking, figuring stuff and timings out and we were able to continue after like 3-4 wipes. That was one of the first experiences that made me realize I'll like this whole MMO thing. So overcoming difficoulties as a team can be a greatly rewarding experience, as long as we respect and help each other along the way.

[@Professor_Utonium_]

They don't even make dungeons like that anymore, sadly. I think Shadowbringers was the last expansion that had you actually interacting with objects during fights as part of the mechanics.

[@siriusnut36]

Amen, really a big part of the fun is overcoming and learning these things with other players and helping each other understand and rise up and beat the fight.

[@Zarrakon]

I cringed so hard

[@Professor_Utonium_]

@@Zarrakon said the unironic yiffer

[@Professor_Utonium_]

@@Zarrakon and you upload LoL and Osu vids? You are the last person to be passing judgments 😭

[@superpokemonfan999]

My qualm with the original post that started this is that it sounds like OP expects to not die in normal mode content. They don't mention wiping, just dying multiple times leading to them not wanting to do the normal mode raids. The normal mode content still comes across as being able to be zombied through any fight (as in you could wall yourself and the party will clear just fine without you). This might reflect a difference in expectations where most raiders will judge difficulty by "how hard it is to clear as a group" where as someone casual like this is only used to difficulty being a scale of "how hard is it to not die to mechanics".

[@kyledabearsfan]

Yeah Roulettes with the exception of Expert is video watching time. It's so mindless, facing obstacles is what makes things feel so good.

[@SubduedRadical]

Normal content should not be where people DO die or EXPECT to die. It's normal content, not hard content. It should be easily possible to get through it without dying, not require you to be an experienced raider.

[@kyledabearsfan]

@@SubduedRadical dying is not a setback. If it's so hard to open your eyes and focus for a moment, then maybe that kind of content isn't for you and that's okay. Being scared of hitting "respawn" is a confidence issue. Part of the design of any good game is the potential of failure, go play an afk battler if you just want to walk through even the most basic of things.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@kyledabearsfan DYING IS A SETBACK. One thing that would help in this conversation is if people on your side weren't so damned condescending and lying. Your OPINION - because that is what it is - is NOT universal. I'VE DONE EXTREMES. I'VE DONE SAVAGES. I don't LIKE them. I do them when I'm in a particular headspace and mood to do them. Guess what? THIS CONTENT IS NOT EXTREME OR SAVAGE. So saying "herp derp, maybe that content isn't for you...!", we're talking about NORMAL MODES and MAIN STORY QUEST/MSQ. The things that are SUPPOSED TO BE FOR EVERYONE. Sorry for all the caps, but seriously, attitude like yours is NOT helping anything. Hard content should be OPT IN, not OPT OUT in general. But you guys have robbed us of even having an opt out other than "herp derp go play another game". How about YOU go play Dark Souls if you don't want easy content? how about THAT, huh? How does it feel to have your arguments rebutted with "herp derp go play Dark Souls if you want to tryhard!!"? Exactly, that isn't constructive in any way. This game HAS HAD hard modes. It used to have (Hard) mode designated content, specifically. But it has had Extremes, Savages, Ultimates, and Criterion. Why was that not ENOUGH for people like you?

[@kyledabearsfan]

@@SubduedRadical nah I've beat Dark Souls because I don't give up when I die. I just find inner strength and work to improve. Way healthier option than expecting the world to change for you. 90 levels should be enough knowledge to help you complete DT, just can't give up because you made a mistake or even a few.

[@TheRealSykot1k]

I thought this current normal raid tier was AMAZING. It was engaging and fun, and not too hard imho. I remember Edenverse Titan, dying to that 11 times my first go around, but I only died like once or twice within the DT normal raids. It was due to the actual genuine desire to learn and improve and it showed! Also, I thought the Visual Tells are amazing and it never felt unfair.

[@Achridian]

I had a similar thing to that Titan experience happen when I was running one of my fc mates through M4. We wiped several times on various mechanics, but everyone stuck with it and after a really hard-fought battle, we finally did emerge victorious and it felt AMAZING. There is a greater level of satisfaction gained from winning after having failed, and knowing you improved.

[@Professor_Utonium_]

The game always gives you some kind of tell, it's ALWAYS fair

[@cynthiahembree3957]

I have had much more fun in Dawntrail than Endwalker speaking of specifically battle content. I'm kinda worried that people think this is too hard

[@zenegos]

I still wipe regularly when I get Iconoclasm on Roulettes and that's completely fine. I'm usually the last dps standing but the only thing I say after the wipe is "Are there any questions?" Because I feel like it's important to break the ice for someone who is already stressed about just having caused a wipe.

[@teyrns]

The only, ONLY part of Dawntrail that I have considered "too hard" is that first Strayborough boss, not because the mechanic is too difficult but because the hitboxes on the enemies and the obnoxious ping of this game make it difficult not to get stunlocked without avoiding uptime by a large margin.

[@marslara]

Yeah that boss feels suspiciously like a jp ping disconnect. Maybe it's a bit more forgiving so they didn't see the problem when making it but it's pretty bad in NA. And honestly it wouldn't be bad to me if it weren't for the fact that it also stops your movement AND abilities so you basically just die if you get caught once at the wrong time. I've healed it a few times and you're basically limited in trying to save other people from messing up to avoid getting insta killed yourself and probably leading to a wipe.

[@ByRekon]

that boss is harder then top

[@MegaDarkness5000]

For the chasers, they have a cone hit box in front of them instead of a circle hitbox.

[@FinalFrankie]

I just did my first run of that last night, and I think it’s the only content in the game that if it came up in a roulette I would instantly leave. It took us sooooo long (totally my fault, bless the rest of my df party). I just couldn’t seem to give them a wide enough space not to grab me and actually hated it. The rest has been amazing!

[@Professor_Utonium_]

​@@FinalFrankieI'd be blacklisting you for that lol

[@DorkmasterFlek]

Very well said. I think it's worth pointing out that part of the nasty negative reaction to this post is because the majority of players that wanted this from DT finally got it, only to see a handful of people complain that it's too much, and they're terrified that the devs will then react to that and not keep going this way. I don't think that will happen, but I think that's partly why people have reacted so strongly right now.

[@RinBanana]

Yeah I mention this in the video - the reaction from many is emotional because they feel that if they don’t “defend” the current iteration of content then it may be taken away

[@DarkDyllon]

@@RinBanana can't blame them, but there has been an influx of those types of threads on the forums, someone posted a thread where the guy was complaining about I think the lvl 97 dungeon being too hard. meanwhile everyone in that threat (well, not everyone but the majority) were giving pointers, asking for footage so they could help, the person only used 123456, didn't use control/shift to get more actions and had sprint/icarus bound to the 2 side buttons on the mouse, the rest of the skills were clicked. people pointed out that clicking naturally is less efficient as you have to look where you click and it's naturally less fast since you gotta turn your camera while clicking the skill etc etc. that persons response to for example making shift and control as the 2 side buttons? "but then I can't reach sprint or Icarus" these people tend to be hard stuck for some reason but always fall back on their "years of experience" it's as Xeno said, you can do something for 10 years, but that doesn't mean you're doing it correctly for 10 years.

[@anteprs7908]

the mayority ? i would dissagre midcore and hardcore arent mayority they are a minority , the casual are the mayority about 70 to 80% and they like ew difficult(some will like dt difficulty but not most). a ton of ppl stil lwant the ew difficult back or better PUT THE FORMULAIC MECHANIC DESIGN OVER THE CHAOTIC ONE THAT THE LAST 2 DUNGS HAVE IN DT.

[@TruNJ]

@@anteprs7908 Bad bait

[@TheTsunaru]

​@@anteprs7908If you've reached level 90+, you are no longer a casual player. The proper term for you is baby player. Games are meant to have a progressive difficulty curve that gradually ramps up as the players get more experience.

[@nanamitin]

I feel like the OP doesn’t see how ironic it is to complain about how in the second normal fight they died constantly and didn’t want to be raised then say you cleared trial 1 after a while but it doesn’t really count because some players died a lot

[@RinBanana]

I agree, it is somewhat ironic and the reason I didn't directly discuss the arguments in their post much is because I thought a lot of them were strawmans or plain untrue statements not worth discussing

[@marioharrer9999]

wasn't there also stated tht theye were former savage/mythic raider.. its not like u all of sudden lose all baseline skills(maybe it was other post tho).

[@SventFulgur]

​@@marioharrer9999They shrugged off advice claiming to have been playing for the last 6 years of that's what you're remembering

[@EmiTerasu_]

Yeah that’s definitely weird take because us High End players love moments where we die a lot and still come out clutch. Victory is a victory no matter how it got there.

[@Gilthwixt1]

I couldn't even get that far, I had to pause 1/3rd of the way into that comment because I was cringing so hard.

[@OpticalJesu5]

I genuinely believe people do not read what the boss is casting or really look physically at the boss. They are looking at their rotation constantly even after 100s of hours. You can blow up the boss cast bar and put it above your rotation but people need to look at the boss. Look at them and the floor. Stop your rotation and observe what is happening if you can't do your rotation without your eyes glued to it. In dawntrail I have seen exactly one mechanic I think is bad and I'm pretty sure its a latency issues and its the dolls jumping on you.

[@qamarqammar7629]

One huge QoL they could make in this game, because so many people have asked me about this and didn't know - is to make the boss cast bar by default separated and moveable. Instead of making new players ask -as I did when I came from Wow - where is my bost cast bar - and finding an answer. Some ex-wow players don't realise that the 14 UI is very customisable and just assume it's not there or they need some whizbang add on to enable it. Also wow players are trained to look at the floor because the floor is where you react to all those purple on purple mechanics - in 14 you need to look "up" where the boss is. Edit: Yes I do know how to separate and move my boss cast bar around, thanks :). What I was trying to say is that it isn't obvious to new players and should be default.

[@Corvus7159]

​@@qamarqammar7629Tbh you can just focus target the boss and move your focus to wherever is most comfortable. I keep mine right above my hotbars

[@AeeanPlays]

@@qamarqammar7629 you can separate the cast bar from everything, i did and i made it HUGE so i can see what's being cast.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@AeeanPlays Same. The first time I had to do this was doing the Solus fight Extreme back in ShB. I HAD to have that bar separate since so many of his abilities you had to see the name of what was being cast, you couldn't tell by telegraphs. I'm not a fan of that, but it completely changed the game to me.

[@marioharrer9999]

dolls jumping on u is how (in general) ball like mechs work the actual hitbox is slightly in front of em than the animation shows u can observe tht lets say in porta decumana in 2nd phase after kb when u have to soak 2 of em.

[@Demon_of_Razgriz]

This person really didn't make themselves look good on the complaints either. If you're struggling, that's fine. Expac's new and this is a bit of a step up from EW content. However, a comment they put in after some people were talking boils down to "I've been playing the game a while, I know what I'm doing." It just seemed very contradictory to what they were complaining about because as to what they described was happening doesn't seem like they truly know what they were doing.

[@Demon_of_Razgriz]

to sum up... this expac is not difficult (yet still need to see what savage entails). this is a serious case of "git gud" a 6 year long case of "git gud"

[@TheVenhammer]

@@Demon_of_Razgriz yeah i can relate as a longtime Dark Souls fan. Actual years of people complaining about there not being an easy mode.

[@DarkDyllon]

@@Demon_of_Razgriz yeah, when that person was like "i've been playing this game for 6+ years" and then saying he/she died for the nth time in a dungeon I was like "how do you even die that many times in a dungeon, like legit how, especially when that person apparently played since atleast SB.

[@anteprs7908]

@@TheVenhammer butsouls game are for hardcore only mmorpg are for all and the ocntent made harder is causal content soemthing hardcore and midcore only asked and got at the prize odf the wishes of casuals.

[@riel0563]

You can be doing something wrong for 6 years too.

[@The_vataru_guy]

It’s not. Casuals have to get better. Simple 😴

[@Lady_Moonsong]

Good luck on your journey of self improvement!

[@tradingmouse9751]

First ex2 clear I parsed a full 4 and still I tought it was rather easy 😂 People just be crying it’s in every game the same

[@ek9750]

these people who are complaining are below casual

[@DeidarasLilStudent]

​@@Lady_Moonsong the "and i took that personally" is strong here haha

[@medivh1035]

I am afraid the mist of pandaria's proving ground disaster had evidence points to the contrary

[@rawrimabunny]

my friend and i were doing the 3rd dungeon and the healer and other dps was struggling with the last boss we wiped like 6-7 times b4 they wanted to just leave the dungeon because they felt bad but we told them its ok the game was about learning and we were fine keeping them we started explaining mechanics to them and i stoped using abilities like anti knockbacks so they could just follow me we ended up killing the boss after 2 more attempts they were so happy we dident abandon them and they learned the fight!

[@asmonull]

The part about knockbacks is important one - players will look at what others do when they themselves are lost or unsure. If you get experienced player greed dps to the last moment, barely dodge a telegraph by single pixel and immediately move back, or knockback immune to maintain uptime, trying to follow them would get you killed because you will be behind where they are and what they do. It's something trusts do really well as an example (move early, don't cheese), and something that can help a lot if you've got a struggling player - opt to be overly correct, this can help more than few extra GCDs you land.

[@IKMcGwee]

See, if they honestly wanna learn, I don't mind taking extra time to help them learn.

[@rwagingsloth9528]

@@IKMcGwee some of the most fun I've ad playing this game, was helping to explain/teach people the mechanics for the lvl100 dungeons. People were dropping like flies the first couple days in those dungeons. So much fun as a healer having work to do....

[@FinalFrankie]

@@rwagingsloth9528lol! As a DPS, when I started to feel bad about dying in the level 100 dungeons I obtained a new motto: “bored healers? not on my watch!”

[@virgilthemob1242]

In all honesty, those knockbacks can easily hurl you off the arena really easily if you sit one meter further away from the circle. Only made more difficult by the fact you gotta be by the center to cross over. I would have done them a solid and put a dorito on my head tbh.

[@enchanrenan]

I enjoyed watching this and I think you have achieved a good and balanced take. I think your closing comments are most important and definitely resonate with me the most - more experienced players need to be helpful and kind, and less experienced players need to be open to that help and be patient too. I hope they continue with this direction of battle content, and that the people struggling can overcome it in their own time to see just how fulfilling it is to beat a challenge that isn't just a walk in the park.

[@KriiiTravelNut]

Hear hear!! I absolutely agree with this sentiment, too. When people are kind and encouraging, it's harder for a newbie to give up.

[@terr0byte661]

Huh wym helpful and kind? Lmao brother, it’s not experienced players issue, it’s bad players issue. Game lacks basic mechanics to teach people how raid and fights generally go and work, it is game devs need to give us something, not *experienced players*. It is absolute same issue as with league of legends, there is too much stuff and absolutely no in-game help mechanism to aid you on getting familiar and better at it.

[@enchanrenan]

@@terr0byte661 Yes but until they implement some better teaching mechanism I don't think it's too much of a stretch to expect people to help out folk that are struggling. Sitting there in your chair laughing at someone that just needs a bit of help is neither helpful nor kind.

[@rremnar]

I agree. I was in a FC that encouraged me to do the new Extreme trial, even when I had a bad attitude toward it. We had a party leader who called out the mechanics, and I did my part studying the fight on KZbin before hand. It really helped, and yes we wiped a few times at first. We learned and succeeded 2 out of 4 times. Usually I do not have a fun time doing hard content, especially with a PUG.

[@magamisic5924]

Well I agree with this, in my experience 60% of the casual player base don't even want to learn and act abhorrent by being given tips for the game. I wouldn't mind becoming a Mentor, but it's this reason that pushes me from doing it because my advice falls on deaf ears. It reminds me too much of work, where people don't ask enough questions and then don't apply that knowledge to the task at hand.

[@formy52]

I had a forty minute trial roulette as I got sucked into the Lv. 99 trial and there was no escape from it (thank goodness I went as SMN for the raise). Is it harder? It *feels* harder, but I think people need to understand that everyone's gear is suboptimal and so damage is just higher. You can survive one mechanic, but being double-tapped is usually a death. And that's fine! People are used to popping into roulettes and clearing clean, which is why you see some people auto-leave Orbonne or the Nier raids because they view them as spicy and just take their business elsewhere. I think more than anything else I think this has just exposed the chronic lack of confidence in the playerbase to make mistakes. I don't think people want the game to be easier for its own sake, they want the game to be easier so they don't die in front of people, waste people's time, etc. It's why people don't queue as healer; if a BRD dies, who even notices, but a loss of a healer is big especially with the current damage output. That's not a healthy attitude to have, and it's sad in a way. Don't know what the solution is as well, I think the game difficulty is fine. First clears are always spicy, then you learn and hopefully get better.

[@Frostbyte115]

This is the fifth time I've heard this and you know? It still rings true. People are just not able to accept failing anything at all. Also the person saying Content creators are trying to dogpile on them is still funny because they aren't. They don't endorse that.

[@TheVenhammer]

People leave orbonne and nier to avoid them? No wonder these players aren’t improving, how are you gonna improve if you never challenge yourself.

[@thebrave9971]

Loss of a healer has become much more noticeable thanks to 80% of summoners and red mages swapping to Picto and compounding the noticeability, I've never had to Nascent Flash a healer so many times, but I enjoy that I actually have to use my kit on my tanks not only for myself, but also now for the rest of the party on a regular basis.

[@Frostbyte115]

@@thebrave9971 I enjoy knowing that teamwork is really making the dream work in the content. It's refreshing

[@anteprs7908]

it just not fun to make mistake and wipe it annjoying when you wipe on confucinfg and chaotic content WHEN YOU DIDNT SIGN UP FOR IT most of us casual sing up for ew difficult of dung and we went from forumalic mehcanics to confusing and chaotic and that not fun for ppl who play to RELAX and have fun i cant do my casual content and relax i need to be focused and i am in the first time iam just not having fun wiping to unclear mechanics and as the saying goes FIRST IMPRESION MATTER i wont bother doing this dung again i know all mechanics now but the lack of fun i had first tiem give me zer oreson to return ."First clears are always spicy, then you learn and hopefully get better." most of th spicy first clear are from difficult dugn and dung i never wanna try.

[@goodsherbear]

I've seen tanks not use their mitigation, dps not using the tools that can help them survive and overall sloppy play (I'm a healer main so I watch those health bars). These bad habits have settled in because there hasn't been any reason to USE them effectively.

[@marioharrer9999]

Preach.

[@Wackywohoopizzaman97]

this, the game never actually teached you how to play so of course people are struggling, hell i even got insulted for not knowing a mechanic and that was supposed to be common and i was like "wtf what are u talking about i literally never seen that" imho the fault is more of the very poor game design rather than the players

[@Wackywohoopizzaman97]

the dumb difficulty curve between normal contents and extreme/savage also doesn't help at all lmao

[@cynthiahembree3957]

Yeah Endwalker especially was really easy tbh. I even found myself making dumb mistakes. I'm glad we are(hopefully longterm) back to having to act least think for a moment at least

[@christheenbyVT]

Hi there, I'm one of the people who posted one of the threads venting about dungeon difficulty you showed on screen (mine was the one about healer-specific struggles with learning the content) While a lot of people did take things too far and make fun of me in that thread and i felt bad about even venting my frustration, especially in the comments of a now-deleted unlisted video i posted in said thread to show me struggling with the fight. I even got past the boss i was struggling with, and i made an effort to apoligize. I was only venting, because, as a healer, I feel sometimes that certain toxic parts of the community treats mistakes as if it's NOT okay. The whole reason i vented aboutt he dungeon difficulty was because of toxicity from party members regaurding wipes caused from me as a healer simply not being quick enough or too focused in trying to improve my uptime whichi've been struggling with improving since Endwalker when i was trying and failing to break into harder content, and the vitrolic angry responses to my venting made me feel that my failures weren't okay, that it's all my fault, and that i feel like because i can't hack it or improve enough, i felt like giving up, because people were judging my performance so hard, going as far as to looking up my endwalker raid logs, mocking how many wipes i had to "easy" raid bossess, mocking my struggling with using my abilities quickly and watching the party list while also paying attention to boss telegraphs (the boss in question was the arm telegraphs of the first boss of origenics) I started just doing it with trusts because i was scared of being yelled at again, being told i'm wasting people's time, and another vote abandon. And the response from the thread and that now deleted video was i wasn't earnestly struggling, I was "trolling". But, the truth of the matter is, I do regret some of the things i did say because i was defensive, and for venting in the first place and posting a video that made me an easy target to pick on. I WANT to improve, I want to take part in the social activity in raiding, i was upset for being stuck on a dungeon for several days because... i want to get through the msq so i can have another chance to suceed in endgame groups where i so throughly failed in endwalker. But I was venting in frustration because i felt like I didn't know HOW to improve, until some people chimed in not to make fun of me, but offer more fair and honest advice, not couched in a bunch of "skill issue, you better quit because i don't want you griefing groups with how bad you are" takes. And for what it's worth i eventually did make it through with trusts, when i was able to calm myself down, ignore the more toxic people and listen to the people who were trying to explain what i needed to work on in a ay that was less...intense, i suppose. Some people did say i shouldn't have just wiped with trusts for so long, that a party of actual people would've been able to help me even if i was on the floor, but that experience of being yelled at over wipes was why I was just sticking with trusts, because i was scared of failing with other players around, especially because especially in dungeons, healers are judged more harshly for struggling than most. Especially given most of my mistakes seemed to be centered around tunnel vision on my buttons and stressing over having good uptime and healing/shielding "enough" and less on watching for telegraphs and moving in time. Especially because i desperately wanted to improve my uptime and amountof casts from how bad it was, especially when i i panic and feel like i can't press buttons during mechanics i need to move for, because i struggle with being able to always be casting AND avoiding everything. It might be that i'm STILL struggling with finding good hotkeys for myself that would allow me to press buttons faster without having to look at my hotbar or the party list more than i'm looking at what the boss is doing or situational awareness. I vented aboutt he difficulty, i thought it was just different and alienating compared to past expansions msq content, but the reason i vented.... is because me struggling was causing people to be angry with me... and i was just scared everyone would just hate me forever for never being able to measure up the the standards the game itself has for me, let alone players who are better than me. I hope this has been an informative read of my side of this, not all the people who vented just want the devs to nerf everything...

[@ruikirisame1744]

I said this in another video but there's two way to answer this. "calm down. The expansion is not even a month old" (the nice way) "adapt or wait for catch up gear" (the acceptance mean way)

[@7RicolmE7]

Basically "Git Gud or Get Out Scrub"

[@ArchieGamez]

lol ikr its barely a month bruh, imagine complaining about content that isnt 1 month old (plus its just fkin normal mode too LOL)

[@sadmiqoxiv]

Or the real answer: Stop expecting an 11 year old MMO to cater to the absolute bottom floor of skill levels.

[@anteprs7908]

​@@sadmiqoxivexpect they should cater to the top 1% demands

[@sadmiqoxiv]

@@anteprs7908 oh look its the guy that thinks bozja is midcore content 5 years after it's release.

[@jegudielyusha2866]

As a filthy casual, the mechanics are not difficult. The telegraphs are simply new. We just have to get used to them, thats all.

[@SilverDHM]

naw, its the ones that buy's the clear expansions from mogstation, as well as the class level from mogstation. Then don't take the time to fully learn the job and just go in without a care in the world. Then start complaining about the game is hard and the moves don't work right...but they didn't take time leveling from 1 and up to 100. At first it was level 90, but still. they don't take the time to learn the taste.

[@WalkerRileyMC]

The telegraphs aren't even new. Big shiny on on side of boss? Bet that's a half arena. Yep. balls going across the arena with three slots showing up above my hotbar? I bet if I get hit by three of those bad things happen. Yep, sure does. Concentric circles? Jeez I wonder that's going to be.... I honestly have zero idea what half these people played because nothing here was new.

[@Hexaile]

The teacup is incredibly simple the moment you realize how it works. There is never a need to follow both, they will always appear in the same way in regards to each other, so Just look where they are, then decide to follow one. If you know where that one is, you know where the other one is based on the one you follow. The first boss is pure chaos though, absolutely hate that one lol. Edit: The first boss zombies running around have actually been shown to be unfair at multiple instances, as their hitbox is either deceptively big, or not at the same spot as the actual model of the enemy. Is it still managable? 100%, is it really annoying at time? 100% xD

[@Thundawich]

The zombies are baited. If everyone stacks middle to bait the first run, then dodges to all the same spot to bait the second run its very easy. People just don't like to think about how to solve mechanics is all.

[@Achridian]

I had a group in M4 of this raid tier wipe several times while we were running it. I had done it once before and was helping a friend through it. The bit about making sure to help people are struggling is so true, I offered what support I could, used my tank sustain to help keep the party alive if the healers were struggling, and even donned the dorito to lead the party through some of the mechanics that were tripping them up. And after a bit, we did actually manage to clear! That win felt so much more rewarding than my original clear, because of the collective effort we put in to get there. I’m having a ton of fun with DT so far and I can’t wait to see where it goes

[@Zanador]

Honestly the thing about wiping when you die once in Trusts is a HUGE issue. Some people exclusively or near-exclusively play using Trusts, and a lot of people like that do so because they think they're bad at the game and see Trusts as "easier" or at least less stressful than playing with real people. The fact that those people, who are already stressed out about being bad at the game, are punished so severely for making entirely normal first-time mistakes is a huge misstep in terms of design. Not only is dying to mechanics the first time you see them pretty normal, it can also make learning the mechanic easier. Once you're dead you can start watching mechanics go off without needing to worry about your rotation or position, so you get a more "bird's eye" view of them and can start to understand them. You also sometimes need a few seconds at least to look around and process what exactly killed you, which is hard to do if you're immediately sent to a black screen and respawned. It's also just really annoying - you have a healer NPC right there, why can't they rez you?

[@sailormoonfan224]

That’s what I typically do with new expansions, so I don’t drag others down when learning. However, the first level 100 dungeon was horrible. I lost count of how many times I wiped, and beat it with 22 minutes to spare. Trusts make things harder in dawntrail. If the difficulty level increases in the future, I’m probably going to stop using trusts all together.

[@elixir478]

I think the main difference with this though is that you can just follow the npc and clear every single mechanic in trusts because they are designed to dodge everything possible. knowing this makes learning nigh near pointless as you can basically "danger dorito" your way through anything

[@qamarqammar7629]

I am huge fan of Trust dungeons, but I don't think they need a raise.There are already a vocal minority arguing that "bad" players need to use Trusts and stay out of "their" Duty Finder. Making Trusts easier would unfortunately allow these players to say "go play with Trusts". Some already do talk that way, they just didn't realize Trusts were hard until recently. The reasons Trust npcs don't have a raise is because ingame raises have a cost - a social cost, a resource cost, even a death cost if timed wrongly - one reason why I see so many dead healers in my runs is because raises and special attention don't come free. There is no way to add this cost to a Trust situation. And no reason to. Trusts are a solo option not "easy mode" option. If one feels one is bad (and we are all bad at something, sometime and somewhere) DF is your friend. Nobody can tell you to get out and go play Easy Mode instead. Just my 2 cents and I am very sympathetic to anyone having difficulties who is not great at gameplay for any reason whatesover - but the reason DF is still welcoming to these people depends partly on us as a community, but also depends on game design. Which is why I wouldn't tinker with it.

[@qamarqammar7629]

@@sailormoonfan224 You beat Alexandria on hard mode :). Something half the streamers I watched would have had trouble doing. Congrats!

[@qamarqammar7629]

@@elixir478 I'm afraid that is no longer true, and was never really entirely true. Trusts have been programmed to do mechanics wrong this expac, at least on their first attempt, or in some cases, teleport at the last second or evade mechanics entirely. Even in the past it wasn't entirely true - I've seen Alisae and Aliphinaud die in Amaurot and neither would raise the other one - and I've had to solo bosses in EW because Urianger loves standing in areana AoEs and dropping dead, at which point the Trust tank also dies. I love that aspect of Trusts and happy to see they've doubled down on it. Makes them feel more like "real" companions on the fight.

[@vayneinsane]

In the words of a wise Omnic from Overwatch: Failure is acceptable, giving up is not.

[@shybandit521]

I found it funny when a friend was like "the game is the easiest its been since ARR" and im like ???? Did we play the same Dawntrail?? I havent been this satisfyingly challenged in normal content before, ever.

[@narius_jaden215]

Better than them whining, I suppose xP

[@TheVenhammer]

Compared to endwalker? I just got some endwalker raids in roullettes and there’s such a huge difference between endwalker and dawntrail dungeons. I can literally stand in aoes in endwalker and barely notice.

[@Jinxyoutoheaven]

The only difficulty in ARR is the EX trials. Ramuh and shiva EX made you lose entire parties.

[@slimfastsubaru2043]

Il give you ramuh but shiva aint bad, you can get a party through shiva ex in mentor roulette in under 10 pulls most the time 😊 ​@Jinxyoutoheaven

[@Ren99510]

@@TheVenhammer I mean that's got nothing to do with how easy they are, you're doing level 90 content in level 100 gear. Sure, there's sync but it still makes a huge impact. The problem with EW dungeons were the bosses had so few actual mechanics. Maybe 1-2? DT seems to have doubled that and makes them overlap sometimes, which is why it seems 'hard' to some people.

[@armemor9216]

It’s sad to see people unwilling to learn from their mistakes and enjoy progressing through the myriad of enjoyable mechanics.

[@anteprs7908]

not everbody plays to progress some ppl just wanna have fun and relax that what being casuals is .

[@ngwoo]

It's really sad seeing people die a few times, get flustered, assume they'll never solve it, and then demand that the game be changed to cater to them. If they'd just calm down, step back, and recognize the joy of dying and retrying in this game where death carries no consequences they'd have so much more fun.

[@datscreaminonion]

@@anteprs7908 How bad do you have to be to not be able to do normals in 14?

[@anteprs7908]

@@datscreaminonion WE ARE ABLE IT JUST NOT FUN IT ANNJOYING i play as true casual should to relax and have fun (it the defintion ) and i cant have fun dying to confusing and chaotic mechanics i can clear it with soem wipe but that not fun

[@OpticalJesu5]

People dont want to learn they want to lord their clear over others. Just easy enough for them to coast but hard enough to keep the majority down. Toxic casuals are far more annoying than toxic raiders.

[@roosterblue]

I really, really enjoy your videos! I've just recently discovered them and every one I've seen has been a true joy to watch/listen to. You have such a clear way of expanding on thoughts and ideas, that following along with you is so easy. I fully agree with you on every point. Especially about just being nice to people in duty roulettes. Yes, these trials and raids are a huge step-up from the content we got in SHB and EW, so I can imagine it really did come as a shock to many people who felt like they cruised through that content with ease. Hopefully people will be nicer to others, which will in turn encourage them and give them the confidence to enjoy the step up in content.

[@MaraFFXIV]

I'm a dedicated raider in xiv, and going into Dawntrail, I was expecting this to be the expansion where I quit the game. In Endwalker I wasn't having fun with any content besides ultimate, and with the graphics update being very unkind to my WoL's face, I expected to lose what little attachment I had left to the game. Dawntrail surprised me with its content, and I couldn't be happier with it, but it's not just because I can no longer sleep through normal mode encounters. It's because, now more than ever, I get to encounter players who are struggling and act as a guide and mentor, explaining mechanics, providing encouragement, and bonding over success. On my first run of M3, my DF group wiped 5 times in the last 10-20% of the boss, and between each pull everyone was cheering on the healers who were struggling to stay alive until they finally made it through. Moments like that are why I play xiv, and they just didn't exist in the era where max level dungeons were easier than the ones in ARR. Even with my extremely mixed feelings on DT as a whole, its those moments of community bonding that are going to get me through. I hope the devs don't overreact to the criticism, because they've hit something truly special with the content this time around.

[@FinalFrankie]

But what about your WoL’s face? Did you end up fixing it with the free fantasia or did you just get used to it after a bit? Genuinely curious!

[@MaraFFXIV]

@@FinalFrankie Neither, unfortunately. Any adjustments I tried out in the character creator only make her look less like her old self, mostly because the changes they made pertain to things that aren't changeable options (such as the eyeliner being nerfed, the philtrum/cupids bow being a completely different size and shape, and even the smallest nose becoming wider and more wedge-shaped). I've been loving the content still, but my average daily playtime isn't even half of what it used to be, because the things I loved doing outside of content like gpose and roleplaying have lost their appeal. I'm really hoping they continue to make adjustments throughout the patch cycle, that is, assuming they are actually listening to the feedback threads on the forums. In any case, I appreciate that you asked!

[@axis8396]

The final boss in the MSQ made me actually want to learn raiding because of how crazy it was. And I always try to ask people in the party/raid for callouts or advice on the gimmicks. On my clear of the final boss I had a very helpful player do this and we cleared it first try despite several deaths overall. I had a great time with it I would say

[@hfsfhf]

This has legitimately been the most fun I've had mechanically (in terms of PvE) with an FFXIV since Stormblood, as someone who doesn't consider myself very good at the game and who has never had enough time or dedication to do anything resembling progging.

[@Achridian]

Before they make an intermediate hall they need to revamp the novice hall. 2 things that I don’t remember being covered are the indicator that a boss can be interrupted and just how to use esuna in general (both what it does and how to recognize to use it). Those are essential elements of tank and healer gameplay that can easily be misunderstood or just never learned. There are some core gameplay elements such as those that I think need to be actually taught before an intermediate hap.

[@Rhiannercakes]

I agree. The novice hall needs a dire revamp.

[@sarnix9324]

When I was a kid, the early pokemon games were IMPOSSIBLE to beat for me. What I didn't realize until I got a bit older was that you can't blow through the game with just an over leveled Charizard 😂 You have to interact with the mechanics, learn about the type match-ups etc. I think my personal example may have some similarities to what some ffxiv players are facing right now. They've become too used to brute-forcing through dungeons from Stormblood all the way to Endwalker. So much so that even the smallest of added friction to their experience feels unacceptable to some. I think the players who do find these new challenges frustrating should be encouraged to take these experiences as fun and engaging moments to improve and learn more the game and how it plays ❤ There's a lot of joy in overcoming difficult things, savage and ultimate raiders know that joy to the fullest extent. If we can help casual players share in a bit of joy then we should all come together on this ❤

[@jegudielyusha2866]

Roflmao ikr? That over leveled charizard was basically me when I played pokemon blue.

[@anteprs7908]

we dont buddy we didnt sign up to be challnage that the point we like the ew dung and had fun with them we dont want to be challange becuase that the polar opposite what being casual is we play to RELAX and the game is taking that away .

[@Calvinooi]

​@@anteprs7908 the dungeons are not even hard, it just require some extra brainpower. We're 10 years into the game, it's dumb to expect the casual story dungeon difficulty to still be the same as in ARR. Raids are optional to boot. There's a difference between brain-dead, and relaxing

[@SubduedRadical]

@@Calvinooi Why is that dumb? People enjoyed it and were having fun. The game has had the most player growth in ShB and EW, and that was even before the pandemic. People enjoyed the game having an accessible, relaxed content story and having optional hard modes. If you force the hard stuff on people, you're going to get people to quit. FFXIV is not Wildstar. Wildstar died.

[@SoeZ-M4]

But overleveling 1 mon its the easier way to play. You just 1 shoot pretty much anything

[@alexvalcarde398]

The only issue I have with difficulty is the unclear hitboxes on the moppets on the first boss in Strayborough. Everything else is fine. They could fix the main issue by making the hitboxes on those moppets perhaps a bit behind their hands instead of seeming to reach ahead, as it can feel like you'd dodged only to have them turn around and hop at you from yalms away.

[@vespi57]

Every player should already know this: failure is the greatest teacher. None of us want to fail, but if we can't accept failure, how can we ever learn?

[@Ruzgfpegk]

I did most Endwalker savage raids, so "difficulty" in itself isn't what bugs me. What bugs me here is the kind of difficulty we have to deal with: for a bunch of players that I happen to be in, too much randomness and long chains of memorization are not fun and I don't get any "sense of accomplishment" from beating it, because it feels like not getting hit once is more due to luck than skill. To me the good amount for these were in most variant dungeons bosses, as some were already pushing it too far, like the one with the dozens of random lines on the ground.

[@Varichan]

But there is barely any randomness at all in Dawntrail fights?

[@Ruzgfpegk]

@@Varichan I was mostly talking about the 8-player raids.

[@FarelForever]

......... "I've only done this once, and really need a few more runs to tell if this is HARD or just more challenging to learn" is what I'd say.... not the most exciting answer....... but that's the best that I've got

[@KaedysKor]

One of the posters you covered touched on an important point that I think may be at the crux of this: the game _never_ teaches you about the difference between the telegraph and the attack VFX, and where the snapshot is, or that snapshotting AoEs is even a thing. No where in the entire new player experience, nor anywhere explicit in the game, is that mentioned or pointed out, to my knowledge. In fact, that Active Help system doesn't even _reference_ the concept of telegraphs. It has 4 separate sections for your chocobro, but not a single one on telegraphs, much less snapshotting. Honestly, the game doesn't even make it super clear through _gameplay_ that snapshots are a thing, especially when you have mechanics that have atypical snapshotting, and especially when those occur early on (good example is the floating eyeball boss in The World of Darkness. His gaze attack snapshots when the animation goes up, about a second _after_ the cast bar finishes). Unless actually _told_, or they are good at noticing _other players_ walk into the VFX after the telegraph disappears (and don't chalk that up to latency, and actually notice those players didn't get hit), players aren't going to know, organically through playing the game, that the end of the telegraph is the keyframe for determining if you get hit. And a lot of the new dungeon and raid mechanics are actually quite easy, and still rather forgiving, _unless_ you're waiting for the VFX to finish resolving before ending the area, in which case there are a number that are incredibly punishing. So that strikes me as a pretty significant flat in all of this. Not the difficulty, but that the game is expecting you to have knowledge that nearly all _veteran_ players have, but that new players don't exactly have a lot of ways they would have learned, unless told by someone else or they read it in external guides or something. Hell, I only learned about it because of a slew of "tips and tricks for new players" videos I watched when I started back in Shadowbringers.

[@DarkAura19]

While I do completely understand people getting turned off by things being too difficult, especially since there is absolutely more to FF14 than its battles and dungeons, I really do feel the most important think to keep in mind that if you're at Dawntrail, you are hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours into this game. Unless you bought your way through expansions, which is... a different can of worms, but I doubt that has any correlation to whats going on now. Even on a complete surface level, if you're this deep in, you should genuinely have a fundamental understanding of things that a 14 battle is going to throw at you. I can understand being thrown off balance a bit at having to definitely pay more attention to what's going on, this is completely fair given how casual content before this has worked, but Endwalker was the literal end of an era. This far in, I feel it's completely fair to expect a tiny bit more out of the player. It's a new world, and that means new challenges, literally and figuratively. But yes, for the love of God, be nice to people who might be struggling. I can assure you it won't ruin your day to have to run content after a few wipes to help them figure out what might be going on. Stuff like this doesn't always magically click with people, that doesn't mean they deserve the experience any less as long as they aren't being entitled about it.

[@anteprs7908]

"While I do completely understand people getting turned off by things being too difficult, especially since there is absolutely more to FF14 than its battles and dungeons, I really do feel the most important think to keep in mind that if you're at Dawntrail, you are hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours into this game. Unless you bought your way through expansions, which is... a different can of worms, but I doubt that has any correlation to whats going on now. " the problem is this ew and dt dungs are night and day the issue is the expection of mechanics ew had formualic mehchanics dt (lv 97 and 99 dung ) have chaotic dung "Even on a complete surface level, if you're this deep in, you should genuinely have a fundamental understanding of things that a 14 battle is going to throw at you. " we do but we didnt expect this bs random bs go is what pp lstarted calling this mechanics lately. "I can understand being thrown off balance a bit at having to definitely pay more attention to what's going on, this is completely fair given how casual content before this has worked, but Endwalker was the literal end of an era. This far in, I feel it's completely fair to expect a tiny bit more out of the player. It's a new world, and that means new challenges, literally and figuratively." we didnt sign up to lose the ew style of mechanics and dung and we are casual we want casual content to be easy that the point why we only do the msq we dont want challanging content we play to have FUN and RELAX.. "But yes, for the love of God, be nice to people who might be struggling. I can assure you it won't ruin your day to have to run content after a few wipes to help them figure out what might be going on. Stuff like this doesn't always magically click with people, that doesn't mean they deserve the experience any less as long as they aren't being entitled about it." first impression matter the dungs i stated lv 97 and 99 i clear them and understand the mechanic most but idont ever wanna do them the annjoying and stress it gave me wasnt fun and it never should have given me this bs .

[@littleameliapond]

Are you really expecting people to not just buy the game and then be like ohh well I wanna play with my friends so I'm just gonna buy a skip and by a level skip as well like they're just gonna see that as part of the price of the game that's why it needs to be lowered especially if we keep wanting to expand to new platforms

[@The_Remage]

@@littleameliapond "People pay to not play the game and we should cater to them for it" what?

[@SuboJvR]

There’s two things that occur over a decade+ of playing a game. One is you hopefully get better at it. The other is you get older, you move through different life phases… unfortunately that can mean reflexes and commitment to gaming dwindles (both in preparation and available time to play). I’m not against challenging content at all. But we aren’t all as good as we were at the start necessarily 😅

[@aoife-oh9si]

i noticed the bump in difficulty going through dawntrail in the msq, and i loved it! i've never gotten that far, but i have been wanting to do savage/ultimate level content for a while, but due to my region it's uncommon to find groups that are willing or able to accept new players, and the ones that do find little to no time to organize for this content. this bump in the normal level of difficulty has really scratched an itch for me, the kind of player who wants to be challenged but doesn't have the methods or means to do the harder level content. big thumbs up from me in regards to this change, and i hope the people who are struggling begin to find their footing and grasp some new skills to help them tackle this level of difficulty

[@Acalypha48]

For me personally as someone who doesn't really have the time to commit to savage raid tiers just the higher difficulty for normal content is more than welcome. I've been playing since end of Heavensward and I used to run Savages since Stormblood and Shadowbringers. Sadly don't have the time for it anymore but I miss content that actually requires to pay attention to what I'm doing and we're finally getting that with the new normal raid tier and I couldn't be happier

[@SubduedRadical]

Here's the problem: You've always had the option of doing harder content. It was there, you just didn't want the trappings of it. Now, you've stolen normal content from the rest of us. We have nothing. We can't opt out of the higher difficulty. The game has been stolen from us and we have nothing.

[@magamisic5924]

@@SubduedRadical No they haven't. You're just ignorant and bad at this point. Stop replying on your second account.

[@TheVenhammer]

@@SubduedRadicalplenty of people, the bast majority, felt like content was “stolen” from them in endwalker too. Because it was so boring. YoshiP even talked about how he would fall asleep during EW dungeons. And now the game is doing way better retention numbers than EW did. That indicates that this level of difficulty is healthier than Endwalker’s.

[@The_Remage]

@@SubduedRadical Cry me a fucking river, stop ERPing for 5 seconds and look at what is in front of you - this shit is not hard in the slightest

[@cynthiahembree3957]

@@TheVenhammer Yup I'm so happy too because I thought it was just me. I'm glad Yoshi P always takes care of us

[@thehighfolk]

I'm glad you were able to see both perspectives of this. It really means a lot.

[@anteprs7908]

at least one of the content creators is

[@DarkDyllon]

@@anteprs7908 I get the argument of the casual side, but even when I play a completely new game I have 0 knowledge about, if I die to a boss, I don't get mad or frustrated, I go again, it's part of the learning process. I legit don't get the idea of "I need to snooze my way through everything" type of mentality, I heard people say "but after 8 hours of work, I don't want to stress in a game" I don't get stressed that much playing games, some might sure, with anxiety for some reason being a thing (another thing I don't get, who cares what mr tank thinks about you, it's likely you'll never see that person again either way) these posts all boil down to "i'm a veteran and i'm struggling in a dungeon, it's not me, it's the game that's too hard" meanwhile I didn't wipe a single time through the MSQ in a dungeon, I wiped once on trial 1 and twice on trial 3, nobody was like "come on guys, stop sandbagging" nobody said a word and I pulled again.

[@anteprs7908]

@@DarkDyllon it not mad it annjoying and that simple not fun

[@The_Remage]

@@anteprs7908 "Waaah, I have to play the game now, waaah" do at least the bare minimum ffs. Noone is asking to you parse, much less so 99s, but at least DONT STAND IN THE BAD. USE. YOUR. BRAIN. FOR 5 SECONDS.

[@anteprs7908]

@@The_Remage buddy i know you a idiot . it not bare mininum the dt dugn(last 2 )require a ton of focus for causal content for the first time and they mechanics are anjoying i also dont stand inthe bad but do enjoy seen how stupid and idiot your takes are assuming i dont know the bare mininum when i did over 950 dungs .

[@Sqishy13]

You nailed this video Rinon. As a casual who has never even done extremes I'm really enjoying the new difficulty. The only thing I dislike is that it seems really common for people to drop after one failed pull. That can be a little demoralizing

[@HayvinStorm]

Which is kind of stupid It's new content with a new expansion. Wiping is guaranteed

[@anteprs7908]

@@HayvinStorm wiping is annjoying and not fun i dont know what mental joy it bring to you ppl but it not fun for most casuals.

[@eslinaargon8270]

@@anteprs7908 git gud and dont wipe then, we dont need the game holding our hands like toddlers

[@anteprs7908]

@@eslinaargon8270 it not holding the hand it need clear mechanic in the esiest content the rest can be as hard as oyu want but no diifcult shoudl be forced. the lv 97 and 99 dung are clearable but arent fun .

[@HayvinStorm]

@@anteprs7908 This is coming from a more casual player... Completed the raids within a few hours when they dropped. I work a full time job and go to University. Wiping on DAY ONE will always happen Nothing New

[@ArmisXDD]

I was a pretty casual player before Dawntrail. I've been playing since around the end of ARR, when HW was being announced, but I didn't start doing Normal and Alliance raids until ShB. I mainly played by myself and didn't really interact much with other players. But something about DT kicked a switch in me. It may be because of the more difficult dungeon and trial bosses that I thought, "If I can do this, why wouldn't I be able to do an EX trial? Or maybe a savage raid?" I joined a more active FC, I used PF for the first time, I did my first EX. I joined a practice party, and we wiped pretty early on the first run, but everyone was saying just how fun it was, me included. And when I cleared it for the first time, it felt so much better than any of the content I had done before. If it weren't for DT upping the difficulty, I might not have tried. I'll be forever grateful for CB3 realizing normal content was a bit too simple.

[@Meilymo]

DT isn't hard, people are just too use to the easiness of EW.

[@anteprs7908]

well the ppl didnt ask for it to be hard at least not the casuals for who this content is targeted .

[@DarkDyllon]

@@anteprs7908 aren't you the person that goes on every video that talks even slightly about casual content's difficult and say that people aren't casuals if they ever did an extreme? I think I remember your name. In any case, yes, even the casuals asked for this, plenty of players were so bored of how easy everything got that this had to happen and what Yoshi said was correct, a platformer with no pits is simply not fun, it's impossible to be fun since you'll never struggle once. even casuals can appreciate overcoming a challenge, however slight that may be.

[@anteprs7908]

@@DarkDyllon extremes are non casual content they in fact midcore content ..i have yet to meet on of those "casuals that asked for harder content " Overcomming a challange is fine if not forced it and isnt confusing

[@shaunperron7080]

Stop conflating casual players with less skilled players. You make the same remarks on every comment here, and your ego is on full display. Also, it's not casual players that make the money for the devs, they see very little from sub money, that goes directly to SE. It's the huge (hard core!) RP community that pays the bills. 100% of profits from mogstation purchases goes to the 14 team. And who do you think spends the most money there?

[@1cef0ps]

@@anteprs7908 casual players are not "easy content players". they are players who play the game casually, which can include extreme content if learned and cleared at a casual pace. people conflate the two (casual & easy) presumably because casuals dont normally do entire tiers of savage or all extreme trials. i'm a casual player. as much as i consistently tell myself i want to do more extreme trials and hard content, i've only ever cleared 1 ex synced trial since i started playing in stormblood. "casual" is a mindset and is about pace and investment, not difficulty. casual players will get bored of the game if it becomes too uninteresting just like anyone else will.

[@paigeskies358]

Came back to this after witnessing a lot of toxicity and I agree at this point. Nerf it. Between this and what happened to Wuk Lamat's VA the community has become absolutely disgusting. If people want harder content then they also need to be patient and kind with players who struggle. I played a fangame that removed it's top difficulty setting to curve toxicity and elitism and this should happen with DT at this point.

[@gamersparadise1305]

Agree on this part wont Level other jobs without it for sure. Played 2 of the normal raid on premier day and got a ignore mark over my head and left the game, always praised this game but this is not FUN anymore sadly.

[@ArceusShaymin]

I've been thinking for a while that class quests (as in, the ORIGINAL class quests, the ones for starting classes up to level 30 before the job stone) SHOULD be the original starting point of learning. The class quests should be directly teaching you about the new things that are being put on your hotbar. They need to be revamped from the typical MMO boar-killing quests to actually give you useful info. For example - why is it that the level 1 Thaumaturge quest is "go kill 6 pests" and not "here's a cutscene where the 5 lala brothers tell you about how to channel Fire and then give you a target dummy in the same building to press Fire on"? It would give players an IMMEDIATE connection to the lore of the Thaumaturge's magic, the characters the quest chain wants you to care about, AND the mechanical goings-on of the class. The single downside I can see is the fact that if they rework Thaumaturge's heavily in the low levels they'd need to change the class quests to fit... but is that too much effort to ask when we want new player onboarding to be smoother? I also agree that players just need to be more understanding in general. We talk all this shop about the community being nice but I'd put MONEY on the overlap between "players telling other to git gud for Dawntrail" and "people who throw a temper tantrum when they wipe once in leveling roulette" being not insignificant. Helping new players learn is a two-way street. They need to be willing to fail and listen and learn, and YOU need to be willing to spend a little extra time with them so the lessons can stick, and to not berate them. You signed up for the roulette - you KNEW you can be paired with new players. Suck it up if you wipe - after all, if dying is supposed to be acceptable, then why should you be upset when someone dies even in easy content? Don't be a dick to the level 15 Gladiator just because they won't wall-to-wall Sastasha when they barely know what mitigation even is. Don't scream at the poor little robed conjurer just because they accidentally let you drop once. They're learning the game just like you're learning the new raid.

[@Zoeila]

They used to be way harder in closed beta as they were trying to teach you something and you would fail until you learned it.

[@FinalFrankie]

I agree with your points about the community maybe not being as nice as everyone says. I’m a new player and this is my first expansion experience. I was so hyped about it but all this discourse has really rubbed the shine off of the community, and I’m seeing how toxic it actually is. Never see it in game though. People are still patient with me and answering my questions about mechs and stuff, thankfully! But now I just assume they run to chat shit about me after the fact. 😅

[@ArceusShaymin]

​@@FinalFrankie Eh, generally I wouldn't necessarily go THAT far. If they're patient enough to answer your questions and not just shit on you in-chat during the instance, they're probably a tolerable and nice person. Generally speaking the really bad people aren't even patient enough for that.

[@justice3725]

Thanks for this. Had a M2 the other day where we wiped so much that we ran out of time and were unable to continue. I saw others struggling a lot and it was extremely disheartening to me to not be able to get us over the finish line. I took it a little too hard maybe but seeing some of the discourse around the issue of difficulty in the expansion(and some peoples dogshit/elitist/singleminded takes on it) made my outlook on the situation a little worse. Your video helped put it into a more positive light to me and raised my spirits.

[@AeeanPlays]

first day M2, the group i was with, we wiped 8 times, then got it on the last, if you realize what's going on, focus a bit, and not take it too hard on yourself, makes it a way better experience, we all mess up, nobody is perfect. you can see this even in day 1 runs from said big name streamers, who were dying to mechs. You'll get that clear, i believe in ya!

[@justice3725]

@@AeeanPlays Oh I was doin it for the orchestrion at that point. I had gotten my clears and was doing that one on repeat. I just felt bad that there was some people in there that no matter how hard I tried we couldn't get the clear for. Maybe I was being too empathetic but it just made me feel wretched that there were people struggling really hard in there and we still couldn't win. I even became the danger dorito to try and help. However thank you for the good wishes and I do appreciate your sentiment!

[@Spartan1312]

The extremes are easier than the ones in EW... the Golbez EX in EW had what is called a body check. Meaning if someone was dead during a specific mechanic it was a group wipe. There were a few things a skilled tank could do to stop a group wipe but it would kill a lot of people regardless. There is no body checks in the current extremes where one bad player can kill the whole group by just being dead. This sort of thing is generally found in savage but its rare in extreme and not found in the current tier. The current tier of dungeons and normal raids are fine but people need to check the telegraphs. A ton of people only look at the ground for the telegraphed safe spot when your eyes should be on the boss and the cast bar. The only reason there is a telegraphed aoe on the ground is to let you know where you messed up.

[@StrikerTVFang]

Keep in mind, you're comparing an end-of-expansion trial to a start-of-expansion trial. The early trials are usually a bit more tame since players are learning their new abilities and/or mechanics.

[@Myrtneough]

Yeah, but EW content's difficulty came in a bad form. Athena savage, for example, was just body check after body check and it ruined any enjoyment I had for healer as a role (and has given a lot of people bad habits, myself included). Hopefully this savage tier takes what has been great about DT content and expands there without pulling from the bad of EW.

[@thebrave9971]

There were body checks in EW since P1S, so it's nice to not see a body check just yet in DT, and I would prefer not to see one any time soon after P5S Devour in Party Finder

[@arknightsboi2050]

Comparing current DT extremes to golbez is a bit unfair. These are more on par with the first two in EW so zodiark and hydaelyn

[@MajoraZero]

What about comparing it to Rubicante EX? That one was ridiculously easy.

[@MinFaeLK]

This is just a huge case of growing pains that the lower brackets of players are refusing to accept because theyre so used to games adjusting to the loud minority

[@serentine7]

Idk when i was growing up playing games if I couldnt beat a boss I would just keep trying. Then you get that amazing feeling when you down it the first try after taking a break haha. Its a game. I dont understand why people think getting to sleep through content is fun. Why even do it?

[@carolinemccall2608]

This is such a great video. I understand both sides and you make really good points about what the game is and what we should want. Thank you for making this video.

[@JohnSears]

People likening these harder instances to extreme and savage content actually has me excited to finally try extremes and savages. Cause I've really enjoyed the harder content this expansion

[@narius_jaden215]

To me, that's insane. Extreme fights have traditionally been harder than these lol.

[@Fireball248]

Even extremes are far, far harder than any normal content in DT (you could maybe argue it for ARR extremes but not outside of that). You can still clear all of this content blind on your first or second pull with randoms, which might take one or two lockouts for extreme trials and many more than that for most savages. Anyone comparing them to this doesn't know what they're talking about.

[@TheVenhammer]

Anyone comparing these normal raids to those has clearly never touched extreme or savage.

[@Achridian]

I’m excited to hop into Valigarmanda extreme with my group, we’re still waiting on some people to finish the main story but I think the fight will be very fun

[@S-Flo]

They're really fun and I highly recommend them, but the people comparing those things have no idea what they're talking about. The normal content is more difficult this expansion, but with an exception or two the majority of that is the mechanics actually having punishments and failure states rather than being significantly more difficult to execute. Extremes and up have much more complicated mechanics and enrage timers, while Savages and up are even stricter and require mitigation planning to not die to raidwides and whatnot.

[@oretes85]

Great take on this, I am loving this new combat and have notice a huge shift in my FC and everyone playing together and stepping up to improve.

[@MarkusZawodowiec]

People just failed ThE TeSt of ThEir RefleXeS!!!!!!!

[@littleameliapond]

OK I'll give it to you that's a pretty good joke is not a bit PTSD inducing

[@Arne83301]

I would definitely consider myself to be a more casual player. Highest I've ever done is extremes... and even then, it was without level sync. Do I find the content in Dawntrail more difficult? Yes. But, I also really enjoy it. While it feels tough, it doesn't feel impossible. While I might not get a fight down perfectly the first, second, or even third time... I do feel confident that after enough goes at it, I'll be able to figure it out well enough.

[@ShadowWalker-ng1it]

oh shit castrum the memories of doing that last boss by using range attack and then /sit for the rest of the fight

[@screes620]

I think people are forgetting how hard normal raids were in previous expansions. Some of the normal raids in SB in particular were really difficult with mechanics i don't think i've seen used anywhere else. Part of the problem is that ShB and EW normal raids and dungeons were overly easy, people either weren't here for the content before ShB, or have forgotten how hard it used to be. AAR normal raid was considered so difficult it's not allowed to be an option when doing normal raid duty roulette. There are trash packs in certain SB dungeons that will easily wipe a party if you aren't careful and just wall to wall pull everything like most other dungeons. For context, i consider myself casual, but have dabbled on occasion with extreme trials, and have cleared 2 current high end savage raids previously in EW, but have never been in a static, and have never done anything harder than a savage raid with PF. Usually the hardest content i do is extreme trials.

[@anteprs7908]

you not causal if oyu did ext trail at best you semi causal but you clearly a midcore player (and that fine) to be casual you need to play to relax and have fun and play with causal mindset so doing difficult content and challanging youself is as anti causal as it get (not that is wrong to do ). savage is hardcore content that alone make you pure midcore no causal would ever thing of doing savage any other way but unsynced i think you confusing time limited player with casuals you can be hardcore or midcore and be time limited

[@lck0ut348]

Id say the bahamut raid fights exist anywhere between just below ex to about on par with savage. Its honestly a good thing they dont come up in raids roulette.

[@screes620]

@@anteprs7908 Well whenever i talk to people i consider "Raiders" (ie: people in statics who do savage content) all call me casual. And then "Hardcore Raiders" are those in statics doing Ultimate's.

[@anteprs7908]

@@screes620 raiders are mostly midcores thst the line between casual and hardcore

[@magamisic5924]

@@anteprs7908 Midcore isnt a thing. stop being ignorant.

[@Nemuriss]

Brother I've seen someone compare Dawntrail content to Elden Ring. I never thought I'd reach the point in my FFXIV lifetime when I would see casuals get stressed enough to compare it to a Soulslike and it's WILD

[@Xxiev]

The higher difficulty even if its not even that difficult is curretnly what saved me from switching the MMO entirely. Inever had so much fun in the Game since Stormblood, its insane. I really hope they don't backpaddle, because if they do i will probably leave the Game after playing since HW ( with bigger breaks in ShB and EW for uh obvious reasons)

[@UltimateSoulX]

Thanks for making this video. I just started trying the Extreme content (sync) and I got frustrated for keep dying. And worse, I felt that we couldn't advanced more because of me (I know it's a party of eight but still felt that way). But I started to look at guides to improve in my job and the fight. For the party but mostly for myself. So again, thanks for your words Rinon.

[@potatoereach]

Oh No I cAnT fAcErOlL ConTeNt fucking get over it. this is one of the few times ff14 players need to be a bit meaner to people who refuse to learn

[@MrJoyShow]

That's the key, yes. It's not about shitting on new people, it's about not catering to people who treat the game like a single player one, and angrily refuse to cooperate with the 3-7 other people in their party. This is an MMO, and we're all working towards the same goal in these fights.

[@berber6084]

bring back bullying

[@MrSprite69]

@@berber6084 No, Not Bullying, bring back holding people ACCOUNTABLE.

[@MrDantaros]

​@@berber6084emmm no.

[@Cadugaming]

If all the casuals leave, this game dies. So be mean, by all means, see were it leaves u

[@AlexLaw-y9j]

It's not TOO hard. It has gotten harder than previous expansions tho. This is 100% a good thing!

[@minuette1752]

The content is perfect at the moment. I do not want to see nerfs, then things get boring.

[@CassiusKent]

I feel like I am going insane. I am as casual as they get, and I feel like this is the easiest the game has ever been. Why are you raiding if all you're gonna do is stand in the bad? Just today I had a group vote abandon on M4 because we wiped a few times. I cleared it first pull next queue. The game hasn't gotten harder, it's the playerbase that's talked itself in to thinking everything is baby mode, and can't cope with the reality of needing to learn mechanics.

[@MelvaCross]

The "It's ok to fail" section accompanied with the music was so inspirational.

[@anteprs7908]

but it not fun that the issue

[@MelvaCross]

​@@anteprs7908 The whole section was about how failing isn't antithetical to fun. It's just part of figuring out new mechanics. And this figuring out, the act of learning, is incredibly fun.

[@SubduedRadical]

Was it? Dying over and over is not fun for most people. Some people like Dark Souls. Many people do not like Dark Souls. FFXIV is not Wildstar. Wildstar died because it tried to be more Dark Souls in MMO form. FFXIV tried to be the opposite of that and has been immensely successful.

[@bluesrike]

​@@anteprs7908You have to be really bad at something at first before you get better. And this is coming from someone who played racing games for almost 20 years and only started playing FF14 this past June.

[@YvaiatheDemon]

Tbh people who think the dungeons etc are too hard dont play with Trusts. As a filthy casual I have done all dungeons (and trials if possible) with the Trusts NPC and by god its hilariously easy. While they dont always move on time, 99% of the time the NPCs go to save spots without getting hit once. Just follow them, it literally IS that easy. I hate content that makes me wipe and wipe and wipe....but this is such a non issue to me :/ If you find it hard, literally play on easy mode with NPCs that are programmed to survive every mechanic...

[@ui8087]

I still remember Tower of Zott being surprisingly hard for a 1st dungeon in End Walker only to be disappointed that every dungeon after it was completely brain off. Dawntrail definitely did a good job in terms of making me feel like I don't get to go into stuff blind and walk out with 0 vuln stacks or deaths which I welcomed with open arms.

[@marioharrer9999]

Wdym brain off a week ago i had Tower of Babil run where we spent 5 minutes on 2nd boss bcs both dps(sprouts) kept dyin to same stuf over and over and over.

[@kingseo3314]

Absolutely true. I loved how Zott jumped in difficulty on my face.

[@Steve121m]

I found all the new content to be a good time, I quite liked the throwbacks to shadow bringers in that one 100 dungeon and the raids have been great, cant wait for the rest of them.

[@chrishoppner150]

The Dawntrail story (which I completed yesterday) is my second favourite expansion now, right behind Shadowbringers. I haven't yet done any of the expert dungeons, but all the other 91+ dungeons and trials so far have been immensely enjoyable. Not super hard, but nicely challenging. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the content next weekend when I have some time.

[@Kelenae]

I hope you get around doing it. Because its very top tier. Last EX series i didnt bother doing many runs in it. But these EX's are so fun and worth doing 99 runs if you dont get the mount.

[@marslara]

Thought I was alone in thinking that. I actually really enjoyed the slower sections of the story just building on lore and characters. I normally skip though that kind of stuff but it was so cozy and and endearing imo. It was like a more fun ARR. I think it also made the later half more impactful and interesting. Though I would say it's my second favourite, I personally don't separate SHB and EW as they feel like a part 1 and part 2 to me. Otherwise those would take 1/2.

[@Daltheer]

As a Savage raider myself, I'm definitely one to appreciate the need to pay attention in normal content. The one thing that does bother me in Dawntrail normal content though is that when levelling trusts, those trusts are an extra mechanic you have to dodge when there are targetted AOEs. The trusts will decide where they are going to stand regardless of where you are already standing, while often not going to the same place twice, so if they knock you out of a spot where you can't get to a new one in time (msq Dungeon 2, second boss, for example), you will die and need to start over. I had at least 2 very low wipes while levelling all of my trusts on that boss in particular as a melee dps because Y'Shtola, a ranged character, chose to stand in the melee safe spot and by the time I realized she was coming in, it was already too late to move somewhere else.

[@anteprs7908]

as casual player a true one who plays to relax and have fun i dislike the stupid and confusing and annoying and chaotic msq dungs they arent clear cut and something not many can enjoy the first time when they keep wiping .. trust i nthe lv 97 and 99 dung( the one ppl disliek the most the rest are fine) ae both often randomly hit and take way to long to kill mobs .

[@Zephyr-Queen]

Hello! at 0:29 seconds you included my forum post ("difficulty" of new content) tho i appreciate getting noticed the fact that it's there tells me you didn't actually read the post because the post is about how the new content isn't hard. I feel like i don't belong with the other posts in the beginning.

[@littleameliapond]

That's what I've been saying I quite literally read the post and yeah like the other versions of FF felt like everyone had a place in this one not so much

[@magamisic5924]

Incorrect.

[@madisontara5717]

When I started playing xiv It was before the reworks of older casual content. Back then, "dying is ok learn from it" and "the community is nice, other players love to help" were some of the most important things to know. I remember getting great help and advise from a random WHM who was so nice and friendly to me. This has started to fade away since late shadowbringers patches. The Community started to become less nice somehow, ppl started to have fear over making mistakes but also the content got easier. The playerbase became more of an: "everyone is on its own and you are not allowed to make mistakes" even if there was literally no need to. It also has become much more rare that players communicated had communication inside content. I have not read such a conversation in years. In Late Endwalker... there was no conversation inside content whatsoever anymore, and it made me sad. You see as an introvert myself I really enjoyed the nice helpful friendliness this game had and every nice conversation was a great push for me. But somehow since Endwalker happened. Players somehow dont like to talk anymore. Id love for dawntrail having harder content would bring back the need for those nice conversations.

[@JathraDH]

I think a lot of that is due to the toxic casuals that report you if you so much as try to suggest they improve anything. A lot of people are scared to say anything because of that and its gotten worse the more the game has catered to said userbase. Now they are all upset that they have to actually try and whining LOUDLY about it. But honestly I feel these people are only the bottom 5-10% of the player base tops and the game will be better off if they get weeded out.

[@gamermanh]

@@JathraDH I was tanking Shisui halfway through EWs lifecycle when I noticed that we were killing enemies SUPER slowly. I then noticed that whole my attacks were doing 4 digits of damage (1,000), the numbers popping up from the other people's attacks were only 3 digits. I check the combat log mid fight and notice I'm doing more than double the DPSs damage in individual hits. Check their gear: it's literally the worst possible gear you could have and still get in. So I say something along the lines of: "hey after this dungeon you guys should get your gear fixed up, you're doing really low damage on each of your hits!" They spent 10 minutes BITCHING in chat before leaving, telling me I was reported. Last time I ever gave even vaguely friendly advice in game. It's not the first time I've seen that shit go down.

[@JathraDH]

@@gamermanh Yeah there seriously needs to be equal representation. It's supposed to be a trinity game but currently the DPS can literally auto attack and it counts as "doing their job". And we can't even call them out for it or we get in trouble. When a tank refuses to pull more than 1 mob at a time or a healer refuses to heal more than once every 5 minutes its a problem but DPS gets a pass. This toxic casual BS really just needs to get stopped, it makes me so upset that people can literally not even try and waste everyone else's time with their entitlement.

[@Zanador]

Personally I haven't really experienced that at all. I started playing in early Endwalker and I've always found the community to be overall very friendly and helpful. I have also on several occasions been given the advice that dying is okay and normal, especially to something you've never fought before.

[@The_Catman]

@@JathraDH It happened that since a certain exodus, it became more likely to meet the JathraDHs of the world, who think that they get constantly reported because they're clearly too nice, while, before, the game succesfully filtered them out. Now, the 2 sides of the community are battling each other out, and have been for the last few years. The game is colder because people are now afraid of toxicity while there was none before.

[@Shinnouryu]

I'll be honest, except the first boss of a certain 100 dungeon, everything felt quite similar to me. But I forgot how ridiculously easy dungeons during the end of Shadowbringers were, ironically that was before Warrior became a crazy healer with Bloodwhetting. People need to understand the game, it doesn't help you to understand what a rotation is but many games have no tutorial and do just fine. I remember struggling on freaking Bismark and Titan back in HW but today tackling ultimate content. It's time they have their reality check too.

[@glensimpson]

I would love an "intermediate hall" type content. Back in ARR/HW I was getting into extreme trials and savage raids with a group, but I stopped playing in 2017, after Stormblood, but before getting into the endgame content for it... work and life too priority. Just coming back a few months ago after nearly 7 years is a fair bit of a learning curve, and it would've been really nice to have a tool like that to catch up on mechanics. I am also not opposed to making it mandatory at a certain point either. As much of a pain as that would be to some experienced players, I just had a roulette this weekend on a level 50 dungeon with a sprout tank in il55(I think?) gear, who didn't know how to use any mitigation, aoe, ranged attack, or provoke... they pulled everything with their single-target 1-2-3 combo, one group at a time. They did at least have their tank stance on and managed to keep enmity on most things (once they got it). But me and the 2 dps did have to do a fair bit of tanking whenever adds showed up. We didn't wipe, and even if we had once or twice, it would've been fine, but how do you even get to level 50 without knowing how to use the mechanics of your role at all?

[@Darkstarjedi]

Tbh I have one foot in either camp so to speak. Is the content harder? Yes, it is a step up and at first it caught me by surprise. Mechanics resolving quicker. Getting one shotted, BUT with knowledge and better gear I’m better at it but I still worry someone will say something less than pleasant. Is it too hard? NO, practise makes perfect. Though f&@k you teacups!!! 😂 I’ll admit at first I thought of quitting Dawntrail but that was an emotional response though I’ll stick to my guns when I say the last dungeon and trial where yet another step up, I was dead more often than alive (lol) and I’ve yet to return to those though I found the extra dungeons easier. Overall I have some empathy for that poster but I think the issue is their fear of not helping the team and have probably faced some toxicity which doesn’t help. Saying ‘Git Gud’ has never helped anyone in any game ever, quite the opposite I’d say. Overall I’ve enjoyed the content (minus What the f… I’m mean Wuk Lamat) and I will endeavour to continue to do so. I’ve not completed the raids yet but I will and follow a life lesson of giving 1 less fu.. a day and that will be not to care what others think and just enjoy the experience. I will also say that I think some players who’ve done it have the issue of underestimating how good they are and over estimating how good everyone else is. That’s all from from an old crappy player who only asks we all have a little patience with each other and just enjoy the ride 😀 (Thinking is difficult, that’s why most people judge - Carl Jung))

[@Morrumia]

I understand the frustration that some people must feel. It wasn't FF14, but I recently played a game with a particular boss I could not beat, to the degree that when I did beat the boss I didn't even feel happy, just relief it was over. However unlike that game, FF14 will eventually give players a way to make the content easier through gear upgrades. There is no shortage of content to tide people over in the mean time. I hope that people who are struggling with the difficulty bare with it until they are able to succeed. I also hope that others can understand that there are people who were content the standard set by Square Enix, and a change in difficulty is definitely going to come with some speed bumps among the community.

[@Aegis---]

the fact that JP players, who are often stereotyped as being a cut above the rest of the world, are complaining about the wuk lamat instanced fight being way too hard even on easy mode, despite being one of the easiest instanced fights in the game is incredible. geniunely, its a skill issue, DT is not hard lol

[@RinBanana]

The Wuk Lamat solo instance is odd, it's one of those cases where I can't even visualise the complaints because it just makes 0 sense to me

[@narius_jaden215]

Yeah I can't believe people would struggle with that.

[@hasenearl6228]

@@RinBanana I think the Wuk Lamat solo instance is amazing, the only thing you gotta do is keep using the LB's to keep your health up, and look at the tooltips, if you never played WAR before I found the telegraph's pretty clear and only fudged up one of the pushes

[@SnancyNegative]

Yeah, Dawntrail is not as hard as people have been saying. Hell, I did MSQ as a fucking BLACK MAGE. The HARDEST job to do with Kitchen Sink mechanics if you want to keep uptime. It's hectic, yeah, but if you keep your head on your shoulders, you'll eventually start learning the patterns, you'll learn the mechanics, and you'll succeed. Like the second boss of Dungeon 97. Fires what feels like hundreds of beams and danger puddles over the course of 15 seconds. What do you have to do about it? Take a moment and move out of the puddles before casting your next Fire or Fire IV. Or use your Paradox. Or use your High Thunder. Or use a Xenoglossy. Or Triplecast. Or Swiftcast, if you don't want to waste a full three swiftcasts by using Triplecast. Or place your ley lines and MOVE your ley lines if you end up having to move out of them. Or swiftcast Despair, cast Blizzard III to go into Umbral Ice, Umbral Soul three times, and re-up a fresh Astral Fire for after the hectic shit. Or you could Aetherial Manipulation to a buddy, and back to your ley lines once it's safe. Or you could just soak it with manaward, since they DON'T GIVE VULN STACKS. Or talk with the healer and try to get them to enable you to greed the entire mechanic without wasting your manaward on a mechanic that isn't even the most dangerous out of the bunch. The point that FFXIV has been going for has been problem solving. Everything has at least one intended solution. And yet, not even a full month after release, the vocal minority of the player base that thinks the game is "too hard" has shown they have ZERO problem solving ability.

[@Hello-lf1xs]

yeah like the only instanced fights I've had trouble with so far playing free trial have been just ones where you need to keep NPCs alive, and... as far as I know I'm guessing that's not a concern here?

[@Yuushiron]

I actually like how you covered this, trying to explain that the room of failure just became smaller and imo it makes sense - this is level 100 content and at this point, most players wil have 400+h of content under their belt this doesn't mean they're not allowed to make mistakes, but they should look and see why those mistakes happen I saw someone clicking on their abilities - this obviously took away from their reaction time and they thought that they somehow can't beat the content anymore a solution to this could be to simply adjust your HUD...maybe try the q, w, r, t keys coupled with alt or shift - it's the little things sometimes

[@DarkDyllon]

I think I know the thread you are talking about. the person also said he bound sprint and Icarus to the 2 side buttons on the mouse, someone suggested to bind control and shift to those 2, but then the reaction was "but then I don't got sprint and Icarus anymore and that takes longer!" like dude, put them on control 1 orsomething and you can still quickly hit sprint in a time of need.

[@Yuushiron]

@@DarkDyllon yea :/ I tried giving advice too but was hit with another excuse...I do think you should def try to see how those mistakes happen and give advice first...and if they still don't listen, so be it

[@ikari570]

one thing that irks me is how entitled many of the detractors of Dawntrail's difficulty level feel. "I am having problems so instead of taking up the challenge and looking for solutions, learning from my mistakes and progress and grow as a player, I want the challenge removed in the first place [and be handed every success on a silver platter with little to no resistance]". And it's not like there's a difficulty curve in the game or something, and optional content on lvl 100 in a 10 year old game is allowed to be challenging and engaging instead of being the same in-out-spread-stack and nothing else that ARR offers. I understand struggling with a game and just not being good at that skillset or being held back by mental blockades and issues. But there are so many solutions and resources out there to remedy that, from watching or reading guides to finding some nice and chill people/friends to run the content with you where you can be sure they won't get mad at you if you perform badly. So why make that everyone else's problem by demanding that the game cater to them and their wants specifically instead of accepting the rules and ideas of the game and adapting to what it asks of you?

[@anteprs7908]

PPL arent unable to complete it it just the mechanics ARENT FUN ANYMORE the content isnt difficult as much as it annjoying and chaotic and that not fun for us casuals we didnt ask for this we like ew difficult and now all the ew content is gone ,we dont seek to improve or challange ourself we simple play to relax and right no next to no dt content offer that beside fates.

[@LegendConsole]

Easiest ways to get good at FFXIV: Pay attention to mechs even if that means foregoing damage for a few seconds. The faster you learn the battle the better at it you'll be. Stay calm when something doesn't go your way. The easiest thing you can do sometimes is to do nothing and access the situation. Death is going to happen. I know people love to get hung up on a death, but its truly nothing. You don't need to be embarrassed or sorry, it happens to everyone even the best of players.

[@mistyotr4631]

Strayborough is actually my favourite dungeon in the game to be honest, will love getting it in expert it's just very fun with how hectic it is. It's not too punishing either, you'd need at least 2 people getting hit by everything to have a chance of wiping really.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Yoshida said he thought they made Endwalker too easy, and to a degree I agree with him. A lot of content was easy to clear going in blind. This expansion was the first time since Heavensward where I've been in parties that have wiped in dungeons. I think it's good to present the players more of a challenge. Maybe by level 100 you shouldn't be able to just rest on your laurels.... at least that's my thought. Though yeah.... eff that first boss in Strayborough. Eff him right in the ear.

[@shimaru2919]

A random sidenote but I love that the first raid of the Arcadion series soundtrack is so similar to the arms theme which is already catchy by itself

[@bijnahonderdeuro]

I finished msq last night. I experienced 3 wipes in the entirety of my journey. I felt I was barely punished for my mistakes. Mind you, I haven't played the game in months, am on a new keyboard and didn't bring over my old settings. I collected vul stacks like Pokemon cards. So anyway I recommend people struggling to pick up warrior.

[@notmandy]

Okay, but the first boss at deadwalk is honestly so incredibly annoying i wish it was hard, but its not, its just purely annoying

[@deice3]

I think the devs did a lot of clever tricks to make things seem harder than they are. Like using kind of familiar looking telegraphs, that if solved "perfectly" based on previous fight knowledge get you hit. Things like boss line aoe being slightly bigger than hitbox, where previously it has been exactly size of hitbox. This makes it so even experienced players get hit once, and wont just solve the mechanics immediately, making a blind run fairly challenging. This changes once a critical mass of players have done the fights, and in fact most runs I did later on were already quite clean. Pile on top of that increasing item level, and the fights feel challenging on launch but quickly fall back to being pretty easy. This is definitely no steps of faith, they carefully crafted the difficulty of these fights to be *just* right.

[@lordyatagarasu]

Its so weird hearing the first argument because I really don't know what their point is? The fight is too hard, then explain how, give an example. Dying a bunch is annoying yes, but that's what learning the fight amounts to, you keep your eyes peeled anything that might be a cue and react, if you can't spot anything right away, that's annoying yes, but you can always ask help from other players, or even look it up, as for complaining about the party dying well, there are other new players besides yourself experiencing and learning the fight. If you survived and they didn't maybe you should offer them advice on what that fight is all about, rather than saying the fight was too hard and needs to be nerfed.

[@anteprs7908]

" bunch is annoying yes" you just solved it th whole poitn why ppl are mad .

[@DarkDyllon]

the whole you gave advise to people was a mentality that a lot had in SB and before that. in SHB when the game got more popular and especially in EW the community got so hyper sensitive that even saying what they died to was concidered offensive, that's why you generally had people not say a word anymore since you pointing out that they died to XYZ might be concidered offensive and they might report you, which obviously puts your account at risk if the GM sees that as unwarranted as well. I generally only say o/ in a dungeon, if i'm in an EX farm party and you got 1 shitter who doesn't know what 1-2-3 is, I generally just kick them without saying anything. (especially since we can't talk about DPS numbers, and it's a farm party, if I clear the fight 1 minute faster because mr deadweight wasn't pressing 1-2-3 correctly, i'll gladly kick mr deadweight, but obviously I can't go and be like "hey, I noticed your dps is lower" or something non sarcastic or offensive, because if I say that to mr butt hurt? and mr butt hurt makes a report about it, i'll get a ban for using 3rd party tools.

[@DeidarasLilStudent]

The snapshot comment is so true. The fact that people would also rather run across the room and die to a 1 shot mech resolving rather than safely vendiagram aoe circles with a party member is mind boggling. *Finding the closest open space to stand has been a thing since the start of the game,* and a lot of people can't even do that because their 'aoe might touch someone else's' (nonfatally btw). The game has also NEVER killed you for *slightly* overlapping generic player spread aoes or standing right next to the orange mechanic indicators. If you think it has, you 100% died to something else. This isn't AAR and you don't have a sprout. Your hitbox is a dot BETWEEN. YOUR. FEET. Learning that, mechanic snapshots, and standing in the safe spot left for you by your party members will fix every one of your problems. I raided a lot in both ff and wow when i was subbed. I understand that I can see/understand mechanics and how they might resolve easier than others, but even you who is struggling can do that too. We're not elitists, we've just BEEN HERE. You are now here, you are 100% ALLOWED to go through what we do, die and learn. We're falling through the floor and dying because we forgot WITH you then laughing about it. The fights just got here and gear is still needed so *pull timer*, go again.

[@Wambat86]

what happened to that Healer strike because Dungeons were too easy. lol I'm having a blast with this expansion.

[@Sazandora635]

The healing checks still aren't stressful; I'm just having to scrape players off the floor more often then usual.

[@magamisic5924]

@@Sazandora635 not that healers should be striking anyway. It's still a ignorant route they took.

[@TheMieperLP]

Regarding teaching tools, I also really liked the Viper story quest giving you a quick simple tutorial. I was rather glad that it was there as you start at 80 which already gives quite a lot of abilities to start with.

[@AdrimF254]

Im going to drop a hard disagree with the opinion expressed herein, for reasons you acknowledge herein. There is a small minority of the casual playerbase that will not improve out of stubbornness. They are uninterested in overcoming an obstacle. This is the core of what gaming is. This much, we agree on. What I don't agree on is putting myself in their shoes. I have no obligation to support a small portion of the playerbase that is unnecessary to ensure the continued production of FFXIV. While this sounds harsh, I don't think I am being unreasonable. I'm extremely willing to help anyone who is willing to be helped. If you drop comments like, "I've been playing for 6 years, I know how to play", I give up. Get out. See ya. For everyone who is willing to try? Let's do this. I'll spend an hour in a dungeon working through it with you. I'll play out of my damn mind minmaxing any way I think will help us succeed. The attitude in the difficulty post is outside of my overton window for FFXIV. I refuse to consider it as an acceptable position to debate from.

[@anteprs7908]

causal play to relax not to be challange , we arent a minority we are 80 to 70% of the playerbase the ppl you see as causal are ther semi causal or midcore . the msq dung of eew are perfectly fien and most causal like it it was fine enough but ppl wanted it more difficult and they got it but those of us who didnt arent having fun simple as that . if oyu cant understand that some content need ot exist for ppl to do relaxing that on you their is zer ogood arguement why msq dungs should have difficulty when it causal content .the mechanics for the lv 97 and lv 99 dugns arent fun they are annjoying we can clear it and we can wipe sure but for us this isnt FUN IT ANNJOYING that the point ppl didnt sign up to suffer in the EASIEST CONTENT IN THE GAME, difficult and improvement should be optional not forced

[@Cadugaming]

I find funny everybody in all statements says the part they disagree with is the "small minority" u dont know that nor have proof.

[@The_Remage]

Literally this. If people keep not improving on purpose AND cry about the game being too hard, let them leave I say

[@anteprs7908]

@@The_Remage not hard annjoying ppl choise to improve if the content is badly design or confusing and chaotic ppl will not have fun doing or clearing it and they will stop playing that content or leave then the game will die .

[@The_Remage]

@@anteprs7908 And your point amidst the crying is?

[@FatMan2539]

My answer to the question posed in the title of the video is: if I can come in to DT with relatively little tanking experience (I only had a 90 tank at the time from trusts) and tank my way through all the current non-extreme content (MT in most trials and raids) with only a couple of wipes here and there (mostly in the raids tbh) - then at least from my perspective the difficulty isn't "too hard"

[@Corvus7159]

It's not difficult, the players complaining just don't want to learn the game they've been playing for (potentially) years and supposedly love. I already said it on Arthars' video, but if these players spent half the time actually learning basic mechanics compared to the time they spend complaining about the game, they'd not be having so many issues. We are in the 5th expansion at this point, there is no excuse. Edit: I'm glad this sentiment is in some of the shared posts

[@raevenent751]

To add to that, we're also lvl 100. At that high of a level, I'm expecting the content to have some pushback.

[@starofaetherius]

difficulty level aside, the community always seems to react so strongly and negatively to worldbuilding focused expansions and i dont get it. ARR, Stormblood, and as i see it Dawntrail are all worldbuilding first and i love them for what they are.

[@JonathanFantasy]

Maybe a 'Very Easy' mode like we have for solo instances can be implemented for Trusts/Duty Support dungeons or whatever. That's as much as I'm willing to bargain.

[@MelvaCross]

Excellent idea. This allows disabled players to clear stuff in Duty Support. I might add the option to get auto-revived like in the Zenos fight at the end of Endwalker or during the second Endwalker Trial where you had 2 lives.

[@taniabaron-dostie2291]

I read somewhere (either on the forum or on a youtube comment section) someone say that the "very easy" button is insulting and degrading. You just can't win.

[@anteprs7908]

we just want a way to have ew lv of difficult back where mechanics are clear.

[@Izayoiri]

I am the perhaps average casual player. I really did enjoy the dungeons and the raid in DT for the reason it was a bit harder, I actually had to think, and as a tank pulling trust system the way I pull a dungeon with players, I had to take care to use my cooldowns properly. I have even cleared (with some very good friends that give me time to learn) both the extremes, which is rare for me, and I have been having a ton of fun. Some of the most fun I ever had in this game is day one raid stuff, when you expect to wipe on something and learn from it. I hope they keep at it, and don't just fold when this content is so new and let people learn slowly and get use to it. And yes, dying in a dungeon or raid is not a problem, one just tries again!

[@anteprs7908]

you a rare breed my freind i talked to many casual we didnt liek the difficult spike well more the change from formulaic mechanics to chaotic .

[@MrJoyShow]

I'm actually pretty happy with the difficulty of normal/expert content so far. We're level 100 now, it's time to act like it.

[@Elendrial]

I do feel for people who just want sit down, switch their brains off, and have some mindless fun. There have been many games, or activities within games, that I've played purely because of that, and I think that anyone sneering at/belittling people who want that needs to take a step back and understand that people play games for vastly different reasons and get vastly different things out of them. However, I also think it's long-term death for any mmo's core day-to-day group content to be so brain off. There's gotta be a level of engagement, a level of interest, or the people who are engaged and interested in the game stop being engaged and interested - and that (admittedly broad & loosely defined) group has a much bigger impact on the long term health of the game, because they tend to have a much bigger impact on the game's community, which is vital to an mmo's continued existence.

[@WikiED]

Are DT dungeons even that much harder than the EW ones? Tower of Zot's first boss you have to read the casts to know what orbs will do and final boss is really chaotic, Vanaspati's first and 3rd boss can wipe some parties. In Dead Ends you find ppl wiping on all bosses. In Lunar Subterrane i've seen ppl die to doom or get hosed by Durante. I've heard horror stories about Zodiark trial and on Post-EW trials i see ppl die almost every time. I feel like ppl heard YoshiP say DT will be more difficult and just gaslit themselves the floor is way higher now while it's pretty comparable, so long you pay attention you can clear it all deathless. Prob the most different thing about the DT dungeons is more common usage of stack markers/raidwides so if healer is bad it can more easily fall apart.

[@denofpigs2575]

Final boss of Tower of Zot was the hardest bit of content in that whole expansion LOL

[@anteprs7908]

ew dung are more mobs are harder then bosses i ndt bosses are simple annjoying that why ppl dont like them

[@HowlingDoom]

The story dungeons aren't harder but the expert dungeons are noticeably a bit trickier than EW's expert. Lunar Subtrerrane was piss easy even on release same with Aetherfont. Even the mobs in Straybough and Tendervalley hit harder than the mobs in the Expert of EW. The only boss of dead ends that I see really mess people up is the first one and that's typically cause people miss out on the "Winds are blowing in X direction" I don't think any of DT content is really super hard but the bosses do feel a bit trickier than the comparable ones in EW. Take the first raid fight in EW vs the first raid fight in DT. The DT boss is far more involved than the EW boss. You basically just dodge the EW's boss cleave and stand on the right side of the map. DT's boss has you pay attention to where you stand as well but you also gotta position to be knocked on to a platform that isn't already shattered, the boss has a devour like mechanic, will teleport to a different location to trick you up with their cleave. There's just more to it.

[@qamarqammar7629]

@@HowlingDoom This is so completely subjective. I used to have migraines and I found staring at that white flail in the first EW boss plus the contrasts so visually painful that I did that boss once and subsequently pretended he never existed. Whereas the first boss in DT can trip me up for sure, but I found the mechanics so legible that it was like a vacation in comparison.

[@MidnightEkaki]

Yeah im wondering if it actually is harder or its just a case of it being new. i struggled with a bunch of bosses before which i now find pretty easy because i learnt the mechanics after doing them a bunch of times, its the same for DT im already starting to find them easier than at first. maybe the mechanics are faster and more unforgiving but idk previous ones seemed like that as well to me

[@VengePlayz]

I am a casual and I am loving it. I have learned a lot after my journey playing from RR to Dawntrail.

[@bidyogames]

What the people who are complaining about difficulty need to do is show us how they play, because personally as a semi casual player Dawntrail encounters were very good and had a bit of difficulty that makes runs more interesting. But sometimes we need to be frank with people and have to tell them that maybe a game isn't for them. For example someone in that thread posted something about their severe case of social anxiety that they can't even go through content with players and leave off trials for months, that to me screams why in the world would you play an mmo if you can't play the mmo then? Another one stated that the final msq dungeon they can't complete even with duty support. This just baffles me since duty suppory npcs stand in the correct spots to dodge mechanics.

[@anteprs7908]

ppl play is for the rpg part most in fact casual play for the rpg part rather then mmo . the trust npc move but the player cant move as fast in the first boss the mechanic is a bit to fast for normal causal dung. most ppl(casuals) dont find it difficult but annjoying and dont find it intresting but confusing and simple not fun .

[@TheBorgey]

The dungeons and raids are a breathe of fresh air. My friends and I have loved the new content. The difficulty feels the same as previous expansions with different coloured markers. You get hit once, learn the mechanic and move on. The person who even wrote the main post is contradicting themselves by saying it's too hard yet they can learn the mechanics. Real "you don't pay my sub" energy.

[@nomnomnom298]

Had a guy doing the 3rd fight in new raid and he was not the only first timer in there. After a wipe most people learned the mechs but this guy kept dying to just normal aoe puddles on the ground and kept complaining that he did not get the mechanics. Dude, if there is red stuff under you, move out. This is a very standard thing in all mmos. Dying to actual difficult mechanics sure, but dying to red telegraph under you? Please just be better. And I encounter lots of these people in dungeons too, just refuse to walk out of just standard telegraphs and wonder why they keep dying.