Is Flesh and Blood New Player Friendly? ► Living Legends Podcast Ep 78

[@RedZoneRogue]

"🦆" - Azz, 2023

[@jonmull5815]

As a weekly watcher for about 3 months now, this is my fav episode by far. Been playing FAB for about 6 months, and only have time to play about 2 times a month. ALL the points made by each of you have been a part of my experience. Then RZR described me exactly. The once a month Bravo player who is having a rough go of it all, in terms of wins & losses. That said, I’d also say I’ve met more cool people in the past 6 months than in the previous few years. It’s simply one of the most welcoming and genuinely helpful and friendly communities I’ve ever experienced!

[@Vvulfrik]

First off, I wanted to say thanks for making this video and covering this topic gentlemen. If anyone is interested in hearing the perspective of a new player to Flesh and Blood who was turned off by it, I can share my experience (looks like I was 3 weeks late though oof). I first got into Flesh and Blood during Dusk Till Dawn and only really stayed interested for a few months. What got me back into it was news of the Prism support coming in Heavy Hitters, because she was a big draw for me getting into the game.. along with Viserai randomly, I do love my Viserai deck. Currently, I play the One Piece TCG very competitively (locally at least) and have been playing TCG's for about 15 years now all together. My issues as a new FAB player were as follows: 1. As an.. experienced and "serious" TCG player, cringe-y I know I'm sorry, I'm very competitive and am drawn to games that reward skill. So, I do apologize, but I feel like many Veteran FAB players are way off the mark when they suggest that it is too competitive or hard for new players. For some people I don't doubt that possibility, but for me it was what attracted me to the game. This isn't really a knock against FAB, I just wanted to point this out because I feel like I see and read this sentiment often. 2. Coming from games like Legend of the Five Rings, Magic: the Gathering, Hearthstone, and a few other random games along the way, I'm not a huge fan of the lack of board state in FAB. Naturally, I was attracted more towards Dromai and Prism because of this fact. However, I'm sure anyone and everyone is aware that it is just simply not the same. I won't go into too much detail, as to not bore everyone even further, but I also had a problem with how weapons and armor feel in FAB. I actually feel from a game design stand point, they got Character Health and Equipment backwards. Logically, think about it, "if I take this hit I'll lose 5 Life, but if I block it with some equipment, I'll break my armor." ?? Random I know, but that always bugged me. 3. In my area, which I would consider a very competitive TCG area, filled with countless MTG, Pokemon, Yugioh, OPTCG, BSS, and Digimon players, Flesh and Blood is almost entirely dead. I think seeing 10 people at an event is a pretty average-strong turnout from what I experienced in my two months playing, with I think 15-16 players being the most during the Dusk Till Dawn Pre-Release. When I say my area is competitive, lets just say we have a One Piece tournament at a different store six days a week. FAB meets twice a week and like I said, very minimal turnout, with most of the stores no longer even carrying the product. 4. Certain cards are just too expensive, and they scare new players off. I mentioned my Viserai deck above, and I sure would like to add a few cards to it... like Arknight Shard $300, Spellbound Creepers $130, and Grasp of the Arknight $40. Speaking of which Grasp of the Arknight has gone way down since I last checked, I will probably pick those up, though my Vexing Quillhand is still okay. Other cards I'd like to have for other potential decks in the future: Crown of Dominion $50, Crown of Providence $85, Fyendal's Spring Tunic $70, Heart of Fyendal $300, and Command and Conquer's $80. Hopefully this gave some insight on a few gripes from a new player. If you ever want to have me on for an interview it would probably be a lot of fun content wise, "Asking a One Piece Content Creator What He Thinks About FAB" or something like that lol.

[@pmk4609]

As a beginner who went to one CC and one Draft, I felt so outclassed by everyone and had very little chance to win with my stack of cards. It seems like most classes have a brick of staple cards that are costly and then you have some points of customization. Buying packs to make a deck is basically impossible unless you get really lucky so you end up having to spend money on single cards sight unseen. That said, all the people I played with are super nice and I had people offering advice, there is just a big barrier.

[@DecksandDraughts]

Thank you so much for the Coaxing recap! Definitely brought that energy...and "Robo Azz" is now a thing. Also was super cool to have you be a part of Easton's Gold Foil reveal. I keep going back to that moment over and over :)

[@GoAgainGaming]

We love you joey! You put on a great event 😀

[@ftgrimm1016]

Legendaries need to be 1 per box and 1 Cold Foil per case (to keep the collectors happy), a lot of new players say the same to me, "I don't have the money to buy either a Legendary or case to get something good and the pre cons sucks", cause they know a box is not enough. We need good CC precons ASAP and reprint the good cards in them, people get scared when they see the price of any decent deck, not even completely optimize. So short answer: No it's not new player friendly. Not at all.

[@10nmonto]

I had a rough go as a new player and kind of burnt out. Ended up taking a break and coming back to find out the decks I was working on are the next to LL. Also my first 2 decent pulls were both banned cards (Bloodsheath, Mask of Lynx) I was playing Kassai for Blitz when she was pretty low on LL points and I comeback and she is gone. Played my first couple CC armories w underpowered upgraded blitz precons, started building Fai but was barely winning in spite of closing the margins in play skill significantly, basically was held back by the cost of equipment. Brought a completely jank Oldhim deck one night and had never tried fatigue strat but have played a lot of TCG and had my most successful night, but Oldhim was busted and that was a diff meta., he was obvs bound for LL or I might have found my hero tbh. Bravo doesn't do it for me though. Same night an experienced player with multiple blinged out decks took the bulk I was offered...but the LGS gave me a playmat so there are a ton of ppl out there rly supporting the game. I was building Fai, Dromai, and just getting into Dash for CC. Kinda torn, on coming back looks like Dromai will be next to LL so probably wont finish that, thinking about getting into Rhinar or Dori just to not be screwed by rotation. So yeah, it is a hard game to get into, I feel like coming in late to F&B and/or taking any time off can really be hard. Also they are working on it, but it is really costly as someone who got tired of WOTC greed, it sucks that the staples like AoW and CnC and EStrike are sooo above rate and also so expensive. The one thing I will say is that the community has great ambassadors like you guys!. The new player product needs some instructions maybe, I had no problems looking it up online, but I hear that a lot. CC starter decks would also help a lot. I have had some bad luck with F&B but I am still giving it another shot. So far the most fun I have had is building a commoner battlebox.

[@iognit5892]

yeah... the blitz (starter) decks suck but me and some of our locals have been making starter decks with our bulk when we buy a box and we give it to the store to just hand out

[@casediedwell5094]

My Locals are all SLAYERS. Top 16/32 at BH/Skirm Events. All of them have, and play, BH/Calling/Skirm Ready Decks. They have NEVER once Held Back against me. But you know what they have done? Every single one of them has talked me thru Each Step of their Plays. Explained each card to me. They've let me 'undo' every Play I've made that I asked to take back. They've explained WHY my move isn't allowed, and made sure I understood my mistakes. They've offered to let me Borrow their spare Crowns and Tunics for the Event. And I feel super Lucky for all of that. Sweaty? You bet. People play to Win. It's a PAID Event, with Prizes (cool af ones) on the line. Exp = MONEY Event Invites. Unwelcoming?! Not at ALL. The FaB Community is one of the least toxic communities I've ever been in! Then one other thing: who in the heck is walking into an Event at an LGS Totally BLIND about FaB? By the time I went to my first Blitz Event, about 2 weeks after I hear the words 'Flesh and Blood' for the first time, I'd watched 20-30 hours of content on YT. I KNEW going in with my 90% Pre-Con Kano that I was gonna lose EVERY Match. I knew The Way is to tank them losses while I decided what Hero/Classes I wanted to focus on. And it didn't take me but a little while to understand that I didn't NEED those High Dollar Fancy Bits to go have Fun at the Local Level, but that I WOULD need them if I was to obtain my goal of being able to sit down at a BH in One Year, and hold my own. I really just assumed that the BULK of the Player Base were avid t/ccg players or their Friends got them into it, or the All Mighty Algorithm thru the game in their face and they followed the path?

[@wrenn5682]

This is the way. I started on blitz precon and was ready to lose and learn something every match until I started getting some wins. It was still fun and the people were great. I play non meta heroes even knowing they may have an uphill battle into the top-tier decks but I enjoy the challenge

[@playtimetcg]

I think the FaB community as a whole are very welcoming but the prizing structure favors those who are competitive and will play the decks with the best win rates. This can lead to newer players having to take a fair number of lumps while learning the game at an LGS.

[@cyrilpit3505]

Short answer : For playing casual games at home : yes For LGS event : definitely not.

[@_autoshade]

I’ve been playing for a month and a half now. The short version of my path: get into game via Outsiders artwork, buy three blitz precons choosing a favorite (Uzuri over Chane and Lexi and good thing cuz that was before I understood LL), consume as much content about the game and Uzuri in particular, start jamming on Talishar (mostly getting ass kicked but it’s cool, wanna learn dojo style), sell over half of my high end magic cards to buy a high end Uzuri list, wait for the game to pick up in a smaller city in Japan jamming casual games with a small pod😅 (no events in the lgs’s near me, heavy hitters pre release will be my first at a store three hours away). Finding your hero is so crucial as Azz was saying and even in your old channel fireball video. But also, as you mentioned I would love to play other heroes too but literally can’t afford to. Oh well.

[@MrTurtleofAwsesome]

There’s one LGS in my area that carries FaB and has events and they primarily do CC armories. As someone who is still trying to build a solid CC deck, it’s not as enticing to show up and play somebody else’s deck because of exactly what Bill said. I don’t know that deck and it isn’t as rewarding to pilot it imo. And while it is still fun even when you’re losing, it can definitely be disheartening to pay money to go 0-5 and spend the night twiddling your thumbs lol. My LGS also has scheduled casual afternoons but they are dead. Nobody shows up so it doesn’t give many opportunities to practice in a non competitive format. I don’t think the game isn’t new player friendly, especially because the community itself is extremely friendly and welcoming, but the core game is extremely skill based and everybody gets better at different rates. In that way FaB is exactly like a fighting game. Great vid guys!

[@glaedth]

FaB definitely is one of the TCGs that drags tryhards in, I don't mind, but I'm a tryhard too. Started playing a few months ago and got destroyed repeatedly, but there isn't any other way to really learn besides losing a bunch. Will that dissuade some new players? Yeah, but that's the same with any 1v1 competitive game, just look at fighting games. I think at least half of my armory players have a gold foil or two to their names, but they are genuinely the most helpful people with the game. They will discuss stuff with you and give their input on what they think was the right course of action for a specific situation, but they won't go easy on you because after all FaB is a competitive 1v1 game and if you're not trying to win then why even play.

[@ryanearley8748]

Boxes are a huge problem, imo. Buying a box at the LGS is not a good way to start out and build a deck. Depending on the set, buying a case might even be a bad idea. Most stores don’t sell singles around here. So if you’re just starting out someone has to tell you to just net deck and buy singles online.

[@RedZoneRogue]

Honestly I kinda agree. I've already been thinking about lowering my usual box purchasing amount for next year - simply because even if you spend over $1k on boxes you still probably wont have a full playset of the majestics, let alone the legendaries. A few boxes are cool for fun and limited, but singles are definitely the way to go for playsets 👍

[@quasishifted3449]

I love the people I play with and the community is great from a socialization stand point. You will always meet cool people and have fun socializing. The problem I see at least at my locals is the majority of new players who give the game a shot show up to what should be a "Casual" night. Then all the seasoned players show up on their most sweaty deck for the format and run the new players over so hard they basically never play the game. So the new player leaves the event with the feedback being "People are cool, but this games not really fun". Luckily one of the game stores in my area got smart and to minimize people doing this they do Blitz Pre-Constructed as their casual event every other week. They have had the most success keeping new players by decreasing the power gap between decks and overall power of decks. New players will show up to just those events for several weeks to months and then branch out to other formats. So when there is feedback floating around that "there are too many sweaty try hards" although I may not like the choice of words, I have to agree. This may not be true of everywhere but in my area we do a good job of welcoming new players to a community and a bad job of welcoming new players to a game.

[@GoblinReserve]

🤣🤣 We just talked about starter decks. I love and hate talishar, but it is such a great resource to learn cards and try new decks without having to invest.

[@upStomp]

The lack of an online client is the biggest hindrance for new players, especially in areas like mine with no local community to speak of.

[@ChrisLeow]

Hello all! Was intending to share my thoughts on this as a store owner and a big supporter of FAB. It is a challenge truly to draw people into the game as FAB is competitive in nature. I’ve been trying to balance it out a lot and issues do crop up simply because of that. And as a store, we can’t ban players just because they want to spike events and on the flip side we can’t just give away Armory promos entirely just for participating. The solution lies really in LSS beefing up UPF but ultimately delivering the much anticipated PVE product that will help encourage in-store play with repeatable business opportunities for an LGS. The value offering here is fun. If players are having a good time and there are opportunities for an LGS to earn a good income by supporting the game then we have a winner. After all, no one really like a sweaty try hard and it creates a feel bad for other members of the community if one or two players keep winning all the cold foils. It makes the game less fun and discourages people from staying on or even starting in the first place. Whatever it is, we gotta work at it to make FAB welcoming and easy to get into or our game will not grow.

[@RedZoneRogue]

Thank you for the detailed comment and perspective Chris, it's really appreciated!

[@ChrisLeow]

@@RedZoneRogue Appreciate the topic being brought up. It's not easy for an LGS and these topics really bring to light what we need to grow the game. Being on the business side; there aren't a lot of avenues to express these challenges to the community at large. Keep up the good work Living Legends. Your content keeps me going as a store owner. Listening to you guys weekly helps me keep sane and to keep being positive in the biz.

[@shawnfickett3734]

I have a lot to say about this week's topics I guess. I do have one guy who has just bought a bunch of blitz decks and just hung out playing the bye, or I'd drop out and jam games and he's just been slowly learning and upgrading a few packs at a time (with plenty of us donating our prize packs after we open and make sure we didn't pull anything crazy) I love the slow casual approach he's taken. Ive played a lot of tcg's but never super competitively, and I jumped into the deep end with these loveable savages, and only my love for Katsu has kept me going strong. I used to like to joke that I was a 4th rate duelist with a 3rd rate deck. (Yes I know thats backwards but katsu was less of the problem than I was.) Its been a wonderful journey because I've been leveling up, and was rewarded with Katsu leveling up in Outsiders.

[@aaroncutbirth2019]

Great episode!

[@RedZoneRogue]

Thank you dude!

[@retrofraction]

Reel-in in Blitz will Brutalize the meta. Normally you might see 2-3 traps triggering per turn. Reel-in is basically going to guarantee a minimum of 6-8. Which, you can use it in the reaction phase to ensure you get extra trigger of Riptide so that you can use multiple Cru traps. You literally could Kano people on their own turn unless they have Zen State lol Might see a surgance in quell 😅

[@RedZoneRogue]

You're telling me Burdens of the Past will be playable? 😏

[@garymack2069]

In competition, you only get better by playing better competition. In our locals we all gladly help you get better and hopefully you start winning it’s better for all of us.

[@snerdbrgrSkips]

The thing about New Prism is that the figments cost way too much. It cost 2 to flip and 2 to attack. and cost a total of 2 souls to do it. It's resource intensive for a not too great of a payoff. I think the flip should not cost any soul or the new chest piece should bypass the soul requirement atleast for the initial flip

[@fabledheronz8096]

I love limited but see the dislike of sealed as it can be quite viable I feel the reasoning for sealed around a release gives us a chance to play with new cards and would help new cards to find there place in a changing meta

[@toom_moot]

Is the Calling format Sealed because of the time it takes to draft perhaps? Sealed is just, crack packs, slight tweak: play.

[@RedZoneRogue]

That's definitely a possibility!

[@shoichi8474]

There's a lot established players can do that doesn't require LSS or game stores to help new players. If I'm playing a new player in blitz, I'll switch to a precon deck. If they're still figuring the game out and I'm running a meta deck in CC, I'll restrict myself from using certain cards or abilities so they can have a good game with time to learn. If I know there will be a lot of new players at an Armory I'll build a deck with restrictions such as only using cards from a single set or try a janky deck idea for fun. Most importantly, if I'm playing a new player the priority for me isn't to win. It's for them to learn the game and get a chance to go through the mechanics. Hopefully they'll love it and become a regular.

[@maxmartrich4907]

I absolutely adore drafting FAB. Sealed, on the other hand, I will actively avoid where possible. It's kind of a bummer if there's any sort of relevant prize on the line and you open up a pool of poopy packs.

[@shawnfickett3734]

I play all formats but CC by far my favorite because it just feels like the right size game and deck

[@sir_quirkus7206]

I’ve been playing commander for 8 years and it’s gotten superrrr sweaty in the past 2 years. Every lgs I’ve gone to around me for it’s commander night people are playing very timed high power decks built to win fast. When there are prizes on the line there is no such thing as casual

[@RedZoneRogue]

Commander is the only format I play in mtg and my groups are so chill I had to table my Yawgmoth deck because it was too much haha 🤷‍♂️

[@aaroncutbirth2019]

It is sealed day 1 and draft day 2. I think draft day 1 would be a bit too challenging logistically and would require too many judges

[@CallumDark]

I think in our community we don't dumb down, but we will just let people borrow our cards if they want to play with a Tunic. CC is the best format of FAB no competition. It's the most fun and lets you have a more varied deck because you have your 40 life. I want people to see what we all see in this format. I really just want CC precons, newcomers just feel resistent to wanting to make a CC deck.

[@AnothosGainsLife]

In before Azz gets canceled by Germany and Switzerland. 😂

[@RedZoneRogue]

Nobody tell Pascal

[@shawnfickett3734]

Honestly my community is on the sweaty competitive side, but only because I have failed as a store manager at building our own community. Almost all of our entrenched FaB players are people who love the game and we are their favorite second or third store to play it at. Unfortunately most of my store is minis and hobbying and most of the tcg players have thoroughly drank the Wotc Kool-Aid. (The reasons I try not to support Wotc while actively selling the products is shared by the Dwindling D&D community but the MTG players don't care at all)

[@charlesmartel8056]

Boku ga weeaboo desu.

[@RedZoneRogue]

Watashi mo

[@rupert6999]

Short answer: not really

[@GoAgainGaming]

you're not wrong! What do you think is the issue?

[@anab0lic]

@@GoAgainGaming mostly the cost of cards tbh.

[@Andres9562]

Azz, my brother in metalcore, let's hang out.

[@xahjk]

I think its funny that people say that fab is more Western because i can't stand most Western art styles and i only played anime tcgs. But when i saw fab it was much closer anime in my opinion 😂

[@Gr8Dane_FAB]

Sealed cause it sells more packs!!!😂

[@RedZoneRogue]

This is technically true haha 😅

[@HaoticSystem]

I'm a new player of FaB. Been trying to learn the game since July. I play once a month at my LGS. Once a month is not enough to learn it. I am spending $100 or more a month on singles in trying to get a good enough library to start real deck building. Still not doing my own deck building. I bought a box of History Pack 1. Got no legendaries, but I did get one majestic that is worth $30. I would have rather spent the money on singles. So...when I play I lose, I am not having fun with deck building yet, and I am not enjoying opening boxes. Also, I feel I need to play all the heroes to learn the strategies built into the game. I'm not going to be good at the game until I understand all the heroes/classes. The end result is not a game I enjoy. But I do like the people that play the game at my LGS. I will keep trying to play the game for a while and hope it "clicks" at some point. But, FaB is not turning out be the fun I was hoping it would be.

[@xahjk]

The Living Legends Podcast is so Sweaty 😂

[@RedZoneRogue]

But we've got deodorant! 😏

[@tammyrosenberger3023]

🙋‍♀️😅🥰

[@tam-ka-blam9736]

Might be a hot topic, but I always hated the term 'try hards'. To me the only people that say that are salty sore losers. There are formats or groups to play where you can avoid competitive players. It just feels like they are complaining to complain.

[@RedZoneRogue]

I think it's how you use it - here we just used "sweaty" and "try hard" interchangeably to shorthand for "person who values winning above everything". It can definitely be used in a salty way - kinda just like how "casual" can be used in a negative way

[@BBpaintball]

I can't take this conversation seriously when adults are using the term "sweaty". RIP English language.