Is Goth RACIST? (The Honest Truth) | Kai Decadence

[@KaiDecadence]

Hey there everyone, I hope you enjoyed the video as this was a topic that I've been wanting to address and cover for a good long while now and it felt great to finally tackle it. If have any questions that I may not have addressed in the video, feel free to leave a comment and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. As promised, there will be a list down below of some Goth bands that have Black musicians in them so be sure to give them a look when you have the chance! Thanks again for watching and I'll catch you all in the next video, take care! ☥ If you haven't already, please do check out my previous video where I go over the differences between GOTH, GOTHIC, & DARKLY-INCLINED kzbin.info/www/bejne/opzCgn6ljLybaKc ☥ Enjoyed the Video, be sure to subscribe! kzbin.info/door/fK_vq2yJ83qcpI2mEkbVVA ☥ GAMING CHANNEL: kzbin.info/door/yEQjcYfW5XNiYiKHXb8iew ☥ Interested in Darkly-Inclined or Goth Merch? Check out my RedBubble Shop! www.redbubble.com/people/DecadentCrypt/explore?asc=u&page=1&sortOrder=recent --- GOTH BANDS WITH BLACK MUSICIANS --- ☥ O. Children (Goth Rock / Post-Punk) ~ ochildren.bandcamp.com/album/o-children ☥ Bastet (Deathrock / Goth Rock) ~ bastet.bandcamp.com/album/lucid-duality-ep ☥ Pitch After Dark (Goth Rock) ~ pitchafterdark.bandcamp.com/releases ☥ Scary Black (Darkwave / Goth Rock) ~ scaryblack.bandcamp.com/album/are-you-afraid-of-the-dark ☥ Shadow Age (Coldwave / Post-Punk) ~ shadowage.bandcamp.com/album/silaluk ☥ The Wraith (Deathrock) ~ thewraithpunk.bandcamp.com/track/prevail ☥ The Ire (Goth Rock / Post-Punk) ~ theire.bandcamp.com/ ☥ Fearing (Coldwave / Goth Rock) ~ fearing.bandcamp.com/album/shadow-2 ☥ Sisters of Shadowwe (Goth Rock / Deathrock) ~ sistersofshaddowwe.bandcamp.com/

[@morbsturaone5002]

idk, kai. you should read my other comment i left under this video you just put out. you've got to be real careful. us black goths can do what we do, but i really don't think the goth scene was really all that inclusive in its formation. i believe peter murphy from bauhaus is racist. i went to one of his shows and he noticed my black ass in the crowd and rolled his eyes-and hard-, like wtf? the goth scene takes on a lot its influence from what was going on during the racist victorian/antebellum time period. the whole pale skin thing came from the upper nobility keeping pale because they would go around with parasols-or umbrellas. the slaves they had were were darker because they toiled out under the sun and they were often black. they were the underclass. around the same time-the 1800s- goth literature was born into existence. you also had art movements, like the romantic movement, that featured paintings with dark themes and the raphaelite art movement who featured fairies and things of that sort. a lot of these influences were incorporated into the goth scene. back then many people dressed in black. it's fucked up that goth took on racist notions and influence from victoria england and victoria america. the truth is what it is. it can be a hard thing to swallow.

[@ameliaselene6550]

Thank you for the band list! :)

[@miriamreinhardt8939]

Thanks for the sources! I love Pitch After Dark

[@KaiDecadence]

@@morbsturaone5002 So uh no. I'm not commenting on Peter Murphy because I'll need to look more into that for myself but you're just wrong on what the Goth scene takes influence from, mainly the Victorian thing. Also it's not "Goth Literature", it's "Gothic" Literature, Goth =/= Gothic. But even then, with the Victorian and Paleness thing, it was not about racism, it was about classism. The belief was that the paler you were, the wealthier you were because the wealthy people didn't need to work and could stay indoors which would keep them out of the sun and have a paler appearance. And with that, the pale skin aesthetic in the Goth scene did not come form influence from the Victorian era, the reason why many Goth musicians did the pale look is because they wanted to look like corpses/vampires/specters.

[@morbsturaone5002]

​@@KaiDecadence are you telling me that we don't take influence from the victorian age when many goths take on the victorian fashion? what about the literature, that was created by these same europeans of the victorian era that was made during the late 1700s through the mid 1800s. oh, since you brought up vampires and certain goths wanting to capture that look, right. guess where the concept of vampires became popularised? in 1819 from a gothic fiction publication of Polidori's the Vampyre. doff. okay, back to the fashion. really, so, we just decided to where corsets and petticoats, adopt the literature, and certain aspects or the artistic content out of the blue? really? the paleness thing of the victorian era was born out of classism, but quickly led to RACISM and COLORISM. doff. these were all side effects of white supremacy spread by colonists to the darker hue peoples of the earth. they used it to justify racism , slavery, white supremacy, and white superiority. the darker you were, the more unattractive and unintelligent you were. this was all based off of skintone and race. using gothic instead of goth. okay. yes, there are some goths who erroneously think the pale skin equates to looking "dead", but there's obviously a lot of disinformation on that one. these goth white women are steady carrying around umbrellas just like those white women in the victorian era did. they did it to keep from getting tans and ure going to tell that they just started doing that on their own whilst at the same time wearing a modern form of the same victorian fashion. FOH. kai, there plenty of music that goths listen to that are anti-black. many neofolk bands are fascist and are mainstays plenty of goths listen to. this music is more popular in europe, though. there are much more racist european white goths than american ones, granted. bands that sparked the goth subculture in america were generally not fascist that's why. furthermore, just because you've never bumped into a racist white goth does not mean they don't exist and/or are outwardly forthcoming about their racism. -you're still thinking about me?

[@jbanne001]

As a black goth music aficionado, I've noticed most of these so called "instagoths" on Instagram are just people that like dressing up on the gram. You ask them what type of music they like and it's usually metal or some variant in my experience. I was on a few of the groups and it's all just a fashion show mostly. In terms of racism, anything in a predominantly white space is going to have some racism in it. It's inevitable. Just like punk and metal. What is unfortunate is all these goth and alternative black kids that try so hard to be in these white spaces have very anti black attitudes.

[@KaiDecadence]

The "Instagoths" are the "MallGoths" of the 2010s, nothing more. They don't listen to the music or care about it and are usually the ones who whine about "Elitists" and will move onto the next fad in due time. And what are these "Anti-black" attitudes that you speak of?

[@jbanne001]

@@KaiDecadence As far as Anti-black attitudes, I've noticed a trend with black "alt" and goth people as well as the blerd community. I'm not sure if it's a backlash for getting looks and comments from other black people, or a need to rebel against preconceived notions of black culture to pander to whiteness but I've noticed some of them don't particularly like black people. Calling them ghetto, not having any black friends/relationships and pinning black people to harmful stereotypes. I've noticed this in a few old black goth and blerd groups I was in and was pretty disappointed. Black people are not a monolith. We are as diverse and creative as they come.

[@PinkyToeThief]

@@jbanne001 This exactly. I've 100% seen the alternative black people with anti black attitudes, and it was damaging to me growing up, I almost became the same way.

[@jbanne001]

@@PinkyToeThief Yeah I wish I could say my experience has been different, but unfortunately it hasn't. Most of these black alternative people are usually the only speck of black in their friend circle and that is harmful. Let's be real, nobody wants to be the token black guy or girl. If you're whole circle of friends don't look anything like you, you're unconsciously going to adapt certain traits and opinions from those around you.

[@niellalien]

Racism exists in every space, regardless of skin color and ethnicity. You're going to encounter racists wherever there's humans. It's a part of human nature.

[@cindyariko605]

There are some black Goth bands out there that people can support. Just the other day I came across a band called Pitch After Dark and I think they're pretty decent. Support black goth musicians so they can thrive in the scene 🖤

[@KaiDecadence]

Yeah I totally forgot to post my pinned comment before I left for work but I have it pinned now. Pitch After Dark were one of the bands I had on my suggestion list. :)

[@cindyariko605]

@@KaiDecadence Awesome! 🖤

[@AnthonyNekro]

I love Pitch After Dark

[@franticbrainz986]

I agree also the band Midnight Nightmare

[@niellalien]

I know your sentiment is good, I'm not trying to be an asshole but I still want to say: black goth musicians don't need our support. If a black goth musician is experiencing actual hate in the scene for being black, that's another story. But I'm personally only going to support someone if they deserve it. If they make good music and they're good, hardworking people, I'm going to support them. I hope everyone here checks out the bands mentioned in the vid and in the comments, but I hope that if anyone decides to support them, it's because they really like them, not because they feel sorry for them for being black in a predominantly white scene.

[@ademcanvaner2567]

"Black people can't be goth... " That is RIDICULOUS!!! I am so sorry you had to endure this, Kai. And he thinks that your skin colour is supposed to dictate whether or not you have the right to state a musical fact?! This makes me so angry... Thank you for making this video. I remember when Dollskill made that stupid shirt that read "goth is white". Racism has no place in goth. Tell those scumbags to go and drown in NSBM, instead. As you say, music has no boundaries. If you like it and support it, you belong! I have been saying this for along time, too. Those are NOT goth brands! Especially that Rob Zombie dress... #FuckRacism #NoGothWithoutTheMusic

[@KaiDecadence]

Agreed haha

[@ademcanvaner2567]

@@KaiDecadence It's nice that you are able to laugh about it. I got really angry while watching this video. Since when does skin colour dictate who can and can't talk about facts!? At least you are safe and far from this person.

[@bullitlover]

I'm a white person, but one thing I would say to anyone that is black and a musician, why not put in the effort and start a goth band of your own and set a new standard in the industry

[@KaiDecadence]

Well said. No one is stopping them from making this kinda music.

[@perlitalaguna6622]

I'm Mexican and my son is half black. The only racist comments I had directed at me were from other Mexicans (when I lived in El Paso TX for 4 years..I'm from NYC. Apparently Im too dark as though I work the fields. Yeah okkkk.) and black people. Not from other goths. Not from other non- goth racial groups. I was active in the scene in my younger years. I used to hang out at St. Marks Place and shop at Gothic Renaissance and Trash n' Vaudeville. Those were the good old days in 1999.

[@CrypticJasmine]

Whaat Perlita! I'm From El Paso too!

[@jemdemonbelle2097]

I'll be honest, I find it annoying as all hell that if you argue with a black person about the music they'll call you racist. They dont even pay attention to who they're throwing that term at. I've been called racist for telling people that horrorcore and "goth rap" arent goth music. I'm a mixie, half black and half white. I've also been bullied by other black folk for being goth and being "not black enough." Or "ashamed of my race" for not falling in line with the stereotypes. I also agree that people shouldn't complain about representation when they're too insecure to BE the representation. Then again I've never felt the need to be represented by other people, but that is just me.

[@KaiDecadence]

Exactly, these people can be so ridiculous and at that point if they're not willing to set their ego aside to actually LEARN something, they can't be helped and not worth the further breath. It' sounds harsh but it's just the frank reality. And I'm glad more people understand where I was coming from the representation thing but I also agree with you that I never felt the need to be represented. Is it nice? Sure but it needs to be genuine otherwise please don't bother lol.

[@jemdemonbelle2097]

@@KaiDecadence I feel forced representation isnt real representation at all.

[@thirdstrike4u]

Funnily ive been called a "white supremacist" by a SJW for pointing out that rammstein and otep wasn't goth bands even tho im Hispanic lol.

[@xmetalfacemamix]

I mean there’s plenty of anti blackness in the Latinx community as well 😂. But yeah, that’s dumb.

[@thirdstrike4u]

@@xmetalfacemamix no such thing as "latinx" its just a silly made up buzz word that sounds like tissue paper for your nose. The word was created by sjws similar to all those made gender pronouns and phobias i would rather not mention. Also its not anti-black nor is it a hate crime for someone to challenged or criticized silly ideas.

[@xmetalfacemamix]

ᴍᴏᴜʀɴ No, no there’s actual anti blackness in the community, I have not only experienced it but I have seen it lol, or else you wouldnt have Black Dominicans refusing to acknowledge it in their heritage because they don’t want the association. Also, I’m being respectful by saying Latinx, it doesn’t hurt, it’s 100% free. Anyways I don’t really care about your opinion on Latino/Latinx, you know what I mean. Also literally all words are made up soooo...

[@xmetalfacemamix]

ForeverDreamWithinADream Internalized racism does exist. However that is not at all an example of it lol and that’s a super dumb reason to attack you, I don’t really like Hobby Lobby like that but idc if other people shop there 😂.

[@thirdstrike4u]

@ForeverDreamWithinADream you did nothing wrong, pay these people no mind for they just hate themselves. These people use the perceived righteousness of a "social justice" cause as a pretext to abuse others, and then plays the victim when confronted about the abuse. Its really shameful.

[@Johnny_T779]

Yes! Absolutely! I'm mixed, and always seen other mixed musicians in goth /post punk bands. Take the singer in She Wants Revenge, the drummer of Christ vs. Warhol and Scarlet Remains... It is true that there is a sort of "cultural coercion" amongst black and mixed folks, lots feel compelled to adhere to "black culture" to fit what is expected of them. I know, I was one of them in my early teens 😝! It made me so unhappy to pretend I liked rap and funk in front of the other kids, but secretly listening to Christian Death and Bauhaus in my room! I fully embraced my gothness when I was released from school, and I never regretted it. Be yourself! 🤗

[@perlitalaguna6622]

Yessss!!!!

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad to hear that you were able to gather the inner strength and confidence to be true to your interests and not be afraid to be into them. Though I will admit, I LOVE Funk music lol I grew up with 70s & 80s Funk because my dad loved (and still loves) that music so it rubbed off on me LOL

[@tbone1365]

Straight facts. Being black and into alt things is only hard because of other close minded black people. A few years ago I went to a concert where I was probably the only black person in the audience, maybe my anxiety was kicking in but it felt like I got a few stares as it's a uncommon sight, but nothing bad happened and I had a great time. I think I've only had one bad experience when a white "friend" didnt believe I actually listened to panic at the disco of all things because I was black. Like what?

[@KaiDecadence]

Right that's just how it is lol That alternative Black people tend to get most judgment from close-minded black people who think you're equivalent to a "Race traitor" because you like something that's not a part of black culture.

[@saracompassi8385]

​@@KaiDecadence watch Lemmy from motorhead on KZbin . He talks about the similar subject . On black guy like metal music . Which is nothing wrong with any race like different types of music . We should not be a$$hole about it either .

[@jovaniolivares9460]

Kai spitting facts. Black people who dont consider themselves victims dont get attention... doesnt fit the narrative

[@KaiDecadence]

Exactly

[@sammgemm-qj8xw]

FINALLY someone said it 😂

[@DJaneSyria]

Fantastic video and analysis Kai! I’ve only just found your channel after loving your comments in other places. I haven’t witnessed the racism in over 30 years in the goth scene in Australia and had a few non white (Sri Lankan, Asian, Filipino etc) goth friends. The music is the scene for me, and when the industrial stuff started taking over in the 90’s, I refused to play it at my GOTH club. I copped a lot of flack for that. It was at that point that the Barbies in black started being a thing, and I noticed many of these people were just there for validation and had no clue about the music. I’ve walked away from the scene recently for other reasons I won’t get into here, but goth music will always be my first love! 💜🖤💜

[@KaiDecadence]

Hey thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. And even though you got flack for refusing to turn your club into an Industrial club and kept it about Goth, I'm sure there were some goers who did appreciate that.

[@brothergerasimos-bd3pq]

I actually really wanted to be goth for a long time but my mom thought it was all devil worship and said black people don't dress or act that way. Just yesterday, she got upset at one of the bands I listen to because of his appearance. I'm a Christian goth and was listening to The Awakening and she got upset with it lol.

[@KaiDecadence]

It's just one of those things that you have to ignore unfortunately. Some people within the black community are that close-minded and nothing will bring them around.

[@encara1]

I am from the community since 1993 in Chicago ..and we are United . And the international Gothics scene is even more open in Sweden and England , Vancouver Canada...if you see problem it's newbies..not old school goth.

[@KaiDecadence]

Right

[@MatameVideos]

I love O. Children!! That band deserves more love. I'm also a brown skinned Goth music fan, a latino to be more specific. I've heard some colorist comments by people saying that goth looks better on fair skinned people, but you can't really tell when everyone's dabcing while wearing heavy make up on a poorly lit goth club xD

[@mensgothfashion5700]

Thank you for sharing from your personal experiences in this discussion. And as far as the music thing goes I’ve left goth Facebook groups the same day because I had to explain to long time members why goth is a musical subculture and they didn’t want to hear it. I personally have never seen anyone treated with anything but absolute respect in this lifestyle regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. That’s why I love the people I’ve met through the music we love, we can all connect together.

[@KaiDecadence]

You're welcome and yeah, I'm really only a part of one Goth Facebook group and it's because I have a friend who runs it and she keeps it on track with the music not allowing people to post their numerous selfies or non-Goth music postings but the other groups, I too took my leave when I kept getting into arguments with clueless people thinking that Goth is an umbrella term for Darkly inclined.

[@mensgothfashion5700]

Kai Decadence and that is why I love your channel. You lay it all out there with researched knowledge 👏🏻🖤

[@christophercole6022]

This was really well thought out and put together. I’m definitely alternative and darkly inclined (love this term by the way lol). I agree Brands like Blackcraft and Killstar are more about witchy, occult, dark aesthetics and I love them for them that tbh. But being “goth” is about liking goth music. Plain and simple 🤷🏽‍♂️ racism is an issue in the world at large and therefore will be reflected everywhere unfortunately but I agree overall. Step out and you’ll see most alt crowds are open to all types of ppl. This coming from a a blk queer man who has never fit stereotypical anything

[@KaiDecadence]

Right exactly, glad some people understood what I meant by Blackcraft and Killstar not being "goth" brands because they aren't. And yes, you can't just pigeon hole goth as being racist when it simply isn't and that racists can be in any community or area but they don't define the alternative community.

[@Hummingbird_13]

I had a lot of friends who felt that way and I tried to encourage them to be themselves, unfortunately not everyone were comfortable with trying, but there were quite a few that embraced it and it was lovely to see. Thanks for talking about this.🖤🤍

[@quriOusmOOn]

Great to hear your observations and experience on this topic. You are always logical, reasonable and factual, which makes your videos very engaging to watch.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks a lot!

[@supermolerrr2689]

Darkly inclined person here. I've called myself "goth" since I was 13, I'm 34 now lol "goth" imo means nothing to me these days...not like what it used to when I was young anyhow. Black Metal, which some argue isn't actually Metal, kind of gave me a lot of fashion ideas and a lot of music to try. Many of the goths who listen to goth bands often refer to Black Metal as Nordic Goth. I've known about Killing Joke and Sisters of Mercy for years. Never associated any kinds of racism to any of this and, to be clear, I don't care if a bunch of rich white kids back in the 80s invented the fashion and promoted it through their music. I'm Métis Scandinavian i.e Native American and Viking, I ain't anything to those "white only goths" really because "my dad is a race traitor" and a "Native lover." Yes I've encountered these people online a couple of times, they're always the same racially slurring pricks. I've had enough problems irl with some referring to Native Americans as the I-word or calling me a broke, half blooded I-word. Black Metal, out of all the genres of metal I've listened to, they say is the most inspired by gothic rock, Carpathian Forest being one prime example of this aspect, more so than Gothic Metal even. Again, there are those who argue Black Metal is not "Metal" in the sense of it leaning more to Crust Punk or something, another genre that heavily inspired Black Metal music. I've read about how in the early gothic scene back in the 80s, there was a ton of overlap between goths, crust punks and rivetheads all sharing different clothing styles and music. Kinda how Black Metal music was born, but I digress. Goth is just a word that I carry myself along with now today, it really doesn't mean anything anymore in this day and age, at least to me anyway. 🙂

[@DJVirgoNeun1]

Kid, I know exactly where you're coming from on the racial stigma of being black and goth let alone alternative. It was just the same growing up in the 90s and early 2000s. My youth bracket at the time were very adamant on what music you listen to and how you dressed based on the color of your own skin! If you were white and listened to rappers, you were a culture vulture. If you were black and listening to metal or gothic rock, you were a sellout! It was that bad, that's how they saw you back in the day! So yeah, as far as the racism in the goth community goes, I myself got most of it outside the community mainly by black people and I'm of Black and Filipino descent! Nowadays, it's not as bad. It's more on the line of interest if any. You either grow with it or outgrow it!

[@love_like_blood]

An amazing video! I think from here on out, if I run into the complaints you talked in these so called Black "goth" groups, I'll link the video to them. I'll link to some Black baby bats too, when I run in to any. Honestly all the non-Black goths were so welcoming towards me and the only hate I've gotten where from either other Black people or non-Black people who had no interest, inclination, or involvement in the goth subculture. Also, I totally agree about what you said about Dolls Kill and Killstar. The "Goth is White" shirt made me roll my eyes. It really was tastless, but they aren't a goth brand. I feel like to some Black babybats it may have scared them away, and that is the main reason I feel horrible about that whole debacle. Watching this video helped me realize that others have similar views about racism in the goth subculture, and I always appreciated how eloquent and thoughtful your content is. I miss the star rating system on KZbin, because one 👍 isn't enough to show how much I love and agree with what you said. I learned things too, like The Cure had a Black drummer in the early 80's! I thought that was so cool! Thanks for showing us some more bands with Black people in them and talking about how well received they are in the scene. Have to admit, I squealed when I saw Bastet; I'm a Black goth woman too, and seeing that made my day. I'm in the mindset of any goth band deserves support, but I did feel super happy to see someone like me performing within the genre. P.S., That Christian Death coffee mug??? I hope that's real because I want it lol!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks! I just felt that it was time to be brutally honest about this subject because I kept seeing glaring red flags when I kept hearing these accusations of racism within the scene and I'm too nosy and curious for my own good where I like to look into these kinds of things and put the pieces together sorta speak. The "Goth Is White" thing was so dumb but you do make a good point that it probably did scare young black babybats away and I think that's such a shame but if any ever do come across this video, I hope this helps them regain some confidence despite my more blunt message I said towards the end of the video. Yeah, Bastet is awesome, just discovered them this year and I've liked all that I've heard so far and I just had to feature them! As for the Christian Death mug, unfortunately it's not real, it was just something I made in Photoshop to illustrate the point I was making haah. Same with the Lebanon Hanover & The Cure bag, those were things I whipped up in Photoshop as well lol.

[@artemisiatenebrosa]

I'm like you in that I don't really have much of a scene around me or know any goths in person so I have to just go by the people I meet online. But like you said, if it is mostly white people listening to the music, it will be mostly white people ending up making their own music or participating in the scene. I'd really like to see more representation of all races in the scene, but it is not something you can force to happen. As for individuals in the goth scene, there will always be some with bad ideas and views because that is just human nature when you're looking at a large group of people. Anyone with racist views in the scene should not be supported or accepted. I have not seen much racist stuff online in goth communities, but I am white so I have to factor that in with my observations. I feel like most actual goths are pretty open people, at least the ones I know online. I always appreciate your videos! I feel like a lot of people might be anxious about making one centered on race. Also, thanks for the music recommendations! I liked Shadow Age already, but now I have some new bands to look into!

[@KaiDecadence]

Right. And I'm sure that there are some within the scene who are racist but they would be a small minority and if they ever made it known, they would not be getting support for their views by other Goths so that's why I don't think these outliers mean that much. Glad you enjoyed the video and thanks!

[@withsapphires]

i would say DIY battle jackets/vests with goth band patches would be "goth clothing". Maybe someone should open up a store to promote those items :) ..and yeah, it sucks that race is even a factor in anything. Here in Portland we have lots of black folks at goth night! 😁🖤 Lots of LGBT as well. I dont feel im gay enough to go to goth night sometimes. Pre-covid virus that is.

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh for sure. DIY Goth band patch/pink vests is actual Goth clothing since it references back to the music. And right, I just did not nor will I ever buy into the whole "Goth is racist" crap after seeing how so much of it is misconstrued.

[@umbralember]

Its so painful to see when people don't understand what goth is, and boil it down to being racist. Its so reductive to the people of color in the community. How can we encourage inclusivity, if it's boiled down to what you assume based on limited knowledge. One of the biggest aspects of the goth subculture is individuality and it really feels like if someone tries something new it's cultural appropriation(even if that wasn't the intent and it wasn't taken from anyone, but rather from ones own head. A good example is some of the piercings we do and some of the makeup/tattoos being boiled down to something absolutely unique to a certain people.) I hate that we've reached a point where punk and goth are associated with white because generational trauma and white nationalism have forced people of color into these boxes or else they're weird. Hell I grew up in a majority black community as a white person, and even still I felt the societal pressures to fit in. People of color often find strength in shared experiences, so a "together we are strong mindset" started to build but then racist whites who at the time held the media power built this image that certain things are all people of color can and should listen to. Its not right.

[@johnmonroe4420]

Punk was not made in England. It was somewhat popularized in England but is not an England or a British style of music.

[@amandaford8730]

Two years too late but definitely agree with a lot of these insights. I've encountered my share of racism and ignorance in the goth scene but I'm pretty sure these individuals' worldviews were formed on account of them being raised in general racist/ignorant environments rather than it being intrinsic to goth culture, since goth admittedly has no strong political stance despite it being punk-derived (and yeah: a *minority* of white goths have this transcendental view on the subculture whereas they view goth in the same vein as a minority group and that goths can be discriminated against on the same level as black, Jewish, or LGBTQ+ people, and seeing those attitudes were admittedly annoying because guys: it's a music subculture -_-). Of course, I do avoid the racist/fascist circles for obvious reasons (and a lot of those groups tend to overlap with industrial-based music like neofolk which DEF has a more prominent fascy problem). 🙃 A lot of pushback I received was from other black people and unfortunately a lot of black diasporic communities are still really hostile and gatekeep-y themselves to "outside influence." It still feels like - and I'm basing this on my own experiences and feelings - in order to keep your imaginary "black card" you're forced to like primarily black music (hip hop, R&B, etc.) and that if you admit to liking another genre more you're accused of purposefully being a provocateur and antiblack. I know that there are "not like other black people" people who pander to whiteness but can people just like non-black music without those sorts of accusations? I don't not listen to some hip-hop or R&B but they're just not styles of music I care much for nor was I really raised in a household that listened to them a lot (and yes: there are issues with hip-hop music and culture, but I know that not all sub-genres of hip-hop are like that, much like how not all sub-genres of metal are problematic; again, it's one of those broader community issues that a lot of black people are still hesitant to tackle). Therefore, I FEEL NO NEED TO SHOWCASE SOME WEIRD VENDETTA/HOSTILITY AGAINST BLACK MUSIC TO SHOW MY LOVE FOR GOTH MUSIC. I might not like black diasporic genres of music but there's more to the black diasporic experience than music, believe it or not. So yeah, it always felt weird for me to go into black "goth" groups where they either a) listed a bunch of gothic/symphonic metal bands or b) tried to validate R&B/hip-hop artists and songs as being covertly "goth." The latter definitely always gave me a vibe where if I knew some of these people in person and we were in a car, I'd feel uncomfortable putting on an actual goth playlist, or any dark/alternative inclined music tbh. I definitely think that some race issues in the goth scene are stemmed from our own hesitance.

[@Materva-hv6sz]

I always find it fascinating how goth originated in England. It has such a strong catholic, ritualistic feeling to it (I've seen you wearing rosary necklaces in other videos) I would have thought it would have come from Italy, Ireland or France, but no...England

[@KaiDecadence]

well remember, goth is music based. And it came from punk (post punk) which also originated in England so it makes sense why Goth originated there as well

[@compulsiverambler1352]

There are many Catholic people, Catholic churches and Catholic schools in England. Old Anglican cathedrals, cemeteries and churches are only slightly toned down aesthetically from Catholic ones anyway, so everyone in England grows up used to gothic architecture and grand religious artwork and people wearing big crucifix jewellery. Most of the oldest Anglican churches and Cathedrals are repurposed Catholic ones. For over a hundred and fifty years, the sanctioned religion switched between Catholic and Protestant every few years as monarchs kept dying or getting overthrown, because royalty were divided almost evenly between those loyal to the Pope and those who supported the national church. It was total madness, one day protestants would be getting burned at the stake for writing against Catholic doctrine, the next day the monarch died or fled and their protestant cousin was deciding which Catholics to execute for treason instead. I think being one of many European nations with a tragic and absurd religious history full of huge sectarian international wars or civil wars and persecution, means that when crosses are taken out of explicitly religious contexts, they shift to their historical associations in our minds. So they are more readily poignant. I suspect the first goths found rosaries and crosses to be darkly loaded symbols innately, not only when added to a goth outfit next to a pentagram tattoo. I know there are also goth Christians but I am speculating about what might have been so appealing about wearing crosses to the first English goth musicians and their first fans. I notice that Americans sometimes express surprise at any goths wearing crosses, but they have always been common goth accessories in England.

[@CrypticJasmine]

New subscriber :) Thanks for sharing your perspective (AND research!) and parts of your story openly

[@KaiDecadence]

No problem, glad you got something out of the video. :) And I also would recommend the band Pitch After Dark. I totally forgot to include them in this video but they're pretty good as well. :D

[@CrypticJasmine]

@@KaiDecadence awesome will do for sure! Thank you! 💖🖤

[@SourceoftheMist]

Happy to see a new video Kai! Loving your feedback and insight, especially at 9:40 when you talk about music transcending our physical barriers and perceptions in this reality -- something that makes music so beautiful and welcoming for all to enjoy! Keep up the great videos -- always a joy when I see a new one created! All best and blessed be!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks a lot!

[@karaigrayson8198]

You are so wise

[@KaiDecadence]

Just sharing my experience as well as deep dive investigations lol. But thanks!

[@GothicNightWing]

I like your thumbnail. I came across that picture online while looking at African American goths.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks

[@GothicNightWing]

@@KaiDecadence You're welcome.

[@ms.anthropia]

honestly, this video summarizes everything i've been thinking for a couple of years. i think it may be due to culture and other barriers, but mexico (my birthplace) has always possessed a varied and enormous goth scene (considering a lot of latin american goth bands emerged here). i won't say tho lol that there's a few rotten apples with a vast influence in the scene, but as you said i think a good remedy is to actually support goth bands from predominately non-white countries or those with poc in them. and yeah that's also why i abstain from joining instagram groups or discord servers, it's always a weird experience.

[@KaiDecadence]

Right. I just don't think it's fair to blame goth bands with white musicians as the problem when the biggest issue is that people don't actually search out and promote bands that have POC in them. And people need to remember that goth is still a niche genre of music so they don't get all that much exposure in general.

[@xavierrestrelm9349]

man, as a baby bat black person, i too, am a metal head, minding, when i learned and was corrected kindly about goth music, i simply asked for more sources and just offically became goth by finding what i liked... i expirced the same, very kind attention from every other goth, very patient. where i am, most alternitive people in general are of color, so it was not at all a racist expirence for me. it's very embarrassing to hear that some black people are so overly conscience about being black that they use it as a sheild and a crutch in cases where they are simply CORRECTED, i say this because i have also seen it in my own experience. i have also found a lot of us are afraid of being ALT or under an ALT label, such as goth, but if you ask me, to be out of the stereotype is very good for black people. some groups want to keep us separated from certain categories, why would we do that to ourselves confuses me tbh.... being where other blacks aren't, only propagates equality. for example, saying that a woman Should be anything is not pro feminism because you are drawing ideas of what a female should be because she is a SHE and not because she does what she wants, we should apply this to race. dont tell other people of color what they should be because it isn't seen as "black" THATS THE POINT

[@KaiDecadence]

Agreed 100%

[@carlapieters-lk9xq]

I am black and i love to listen to Christian Death. However i noticed that some of his songs have lyrics what makes me doupt if the band is racist or not. To give an example One of the songs : Romeo's distressed. I would like to figure that out.

[@KaiDecadence]

I should've talked about that in the video but forgot to. Anyway the context of Romeo's Distress is that Rozz was singing from the perspective of a hypocritical extremist Baptist church man. He didn't actually believe the views.

[@carlapieters-lk9xq]

@@KaiDecadence 👍

[@carlapieters-lk9xq]

thank you for you answer 😊 i am glad to hear that

[@themidnightbat]

Loving these band suggestions!

[@slate0]

Funny thing is I was introduced to goth music by 2 friends of mine who are near and dear to me and they were black

[@KaiDecadence]

That's awesome to hear

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

Great video, Kai. Love the outro song! Edit: all the songs 😆👌

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@kidicarusuprising6233]

I haven't met that many other Goths and also, I am a tan-Goth. Plus, I think I might have been a Mall Goth (which ISN'T really Goth), but now I AM a TRUE Goth now. My main bands are The Sisters of Mercy, Diva Destruction, Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Clan of Xymox, The Cruxshadows, Paralysed Age, and The Frozen Autumn :)

[@KaiDecadence]

The thing about "Mall Goth" is that it was a misnomer term. The actual word for it was "Mallcore" but "Mall Goth" caught on because it sounded well uh, more edgier (and full of misappropriation lol). But yes you're correct, "MallGoth" is not goth period and back then it really was code word for "poser" and not a term of endearment. Cool band choices but I have to highlight one in particular since it sounds like you're fairly new to the music. Do keep in mind that The Cruxshadows, they are no longer a Goth band and they haven't been for a long time. The Cruxshadows did start out as a goth band in 1993 with their debut album "Night Crawls In" but around 1995 when they released their second album 1996's "Telemetry Of A Fallen Angel", they eventually started moving away from goth and into the electronic side of things where they dabbled more with synth-pop. I think they only had like 2 songs on that album that were legit darkwave. But from there on out, they swiftly moved away from goth altogether and stuck around alternating between synth-pop and futurepop (around 2003+). I only share this info because I see so many people wrongly label their work as "darkwave" when in reality, it was either just synth-pop and futurepop music thus it wasn't goth music. I hope this helps in some way if you're trying to get into darkwave music.

[@kidicarusuprising6233]

@@KaiDecadence Thank u ^_^

[@lisasimpson8895]

I talked to you in the chat of a GNC Centric live, then I saw your comments in a KingCritical video and decided to check your channel. I'm not into goth (I don't know nything about it, I didn't even know The Cure is goth hahaha) and I really like it! I can see you have critical thinking about other things besides gender.

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh thanks haha. Well The Cure, they used to be Goth, they eventually moved onto general Alternative in their final years but they used to be back in the 80s~

[@alexandercortes5013]

i'm L.A. born and raised and in this city you meet people from countries you've never even heard of and as long as i've been alive it has always been minimally segregated and i always lived in racially / culturally mixed areas. i have always noticed though that african americans do not seem to like ANYTHING that isn't made by african americans. i'm 55 and been "alternative" fer years and there were always plenty of hispanics, asians, etc. at punk gigs, metal shows and the goth scene and not once have i ever seen any form of prejudice or racism in any of the scenes. in my experience african americans simply have zero interest in any of those scenes fer the most part except in tiny numbers. throw a rap, hip hop or r&b shindig of any kind and they're there in droves but anything aside from that they could care less. there is definitely such a thing as self imposed segregation which is in the end as good an explanation as any as for why you will never see me at a TAYLOR SWIFT concert.

[@sharissaluther7326]

Oh my gosh YES! I HATE the fact that pentagrams and alchemy symbols I like the prime pattern on Killstar’s merchandise. Restyle dose it too. That’s why I focus more on moons, cats, bats, roses, and sometimes crosses. But Killstar had the ner to put a pentagram in the middle of a cross. I’m not gonna lie, that car triggered me.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep it's just tacky.

[@lunalamiah1986]

I add another observation: music is also "religiousness" because although some musicstyle like Gospel or Black Metal are really full of religious ideas (Gospel about God, Black Metal about Satan\Paganism even if exists some BM's christian bands) this does not mean "I must be a christian for listening Mahalia Jackson" or "I must be a satanist for listening Dark Funeral". I'm totally anti-christian religion but I really love Mahalia Jackson's voice. The fact that she was a christian woman singing about christian god it's irrelevant because I love her voice, not her ideas. So, I think that when a person loves music, gender, race and so on are irrelevant.

[@gothbat676]

Hey! I'm a newly black goth still trying to get into the public goth scene. I live in NYC now and I've been having trouble finding some goth clubs or goth rock concert venues to attend. Any good suggestions on places where I can go?

[@KaiDecadence]

I'm sorry to say but I can't help there as I don't live in NYC. I'd suggest trying the r/Goth subreddit and asking for some recommendations there, they are pretty good with that kinda stuff

[@gothbat676]

@@KaiDecadence Yes! I figured that would be where I would resort to next, thank you for suggesting that! ^^

[@Pheasantandfowls]

Some of the things you said were ignorant in this video. For example a lack of representation for black goths/alternative is not just because of black people “judging” or black goths/alternative people not taking part in gothic or alternative activities but it’s due to the people that are the higher positions choosing an individual race over another race. This can also be said for other ethnics groups, but to say there is a lack of diversity and blame it on an oppressed race is wrong considering there are many black artist, actress and actors trying break into these industries to represent.

[@KaiDecadence]

And that is the self-victimhood mentality that I was talking about in the video that you are displaying right here. I'm sorry but I'm just being honest here. First off, Goth is nor some corporation where there are positions, I don't ktno what you're going on about this "higher position" talk but that was ridiculous. As I explained in the video, time and again, there were Goth bands with black members in them and they did just find gaining attention and support. The reality of the situation though is there just aren't that many Black people interested in creating Goth music, that's why there aren't many Goth bands with black people in them as it's obvious that other black people want to play other kinds of music. And it absolutely does come from other Black people judging other Black people. Look at some of the comments here where some of have shared that is exactly what they dealt with. I just didn't sugar it and said it in the video because it is a problem, enough of which to highlight.

[@Pheasantandfowls]

Kai Decadence it’s not self-victimhood it’s facts. There are many black people fighting for representation in these industries and the fact that you don’t understand that shows that you’re one of the people that are oppressing black live.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@Pheasantandfowls In the Goth scene, that is not happening. I already gave examples but you're stuck in your ways and you can't give me examples of it relating to GOTH. We're not talking about any other subculture here. If Goth was really oppressing black people to not be a part of it, bands like O Children, The Wraith, and Shadow Age would've been shunned away and not got the traction they did within the scene. That people would be giving Pitch After Dark crap because they are black people playing Goth music which is not happening neither.

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

Another great video, Kai! :) Thanks for introducing me to some amazing new bands. Luckily I have never experienced any racism or colourism in the scene (I'm Eurasian and quite olive). I think this also has to do with the fact that I live in Germany, where race, which for obvious reasons is a pretty loaded term here, is viewed differently. For better or for worse, many people have a sort of 'colourblind' approach and enjoying things outside your own cultural realm (which some people would consider cultural appropriation) is seen as less controversial. But then again, I do not know many GOCs (sure, I've seen one or two black Goths and even Asian Goths here, but I do not know them personally), so perhaps others may not share my overall positive view of the scene.

[@KaiDecadence]

You're very welcome and yeah I hear that race isn't as divisive outside of the States excluding a few certain places but I digress, Goth was just not built on that and I think this is what people need to understand.

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

Yeah, I would argue that the Goth scene is much more tolerant than mainstream society. It's really annoying to see people pull the race-card in response to constructive criticism. :-/

[@ravinnox2640]

Been going through the backlight if Cemetary Confessions and heard you on the gaming episode from like a year ago and decided to look you up on here, glad I did, enjoying your content.

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh yeah, that was fun to participate in even though I was nervous and it was the first time I partook in a livestream but thanks, glad you're enjoying the content. :)

[@ravinnox2640]

@@KaiDecadence man you did great! You're very well spoken.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@ravinnox2640 Lol thanks

[@monikintin.3377]

Goth subculture is not racist. But depends on where you live or go, ppl from that area might have different behaviors and mentality which is not necessarily goth subculture but it’s individuals. Me being also Non-white, I don’t experience racism from Goth subculture itself but only some individuals. In terms of Goth music part, I’ve seen some people even who called themselves Elder Goths don’t get it. They often say “goth is a mindset”. Which goth groups are you in? I am also in a couple of Goth groups on social medias and I often see that conversations. Whenever we mentioned about goth is music based subculture or which music is goth or not, ppl quick to call “elitists” “gatekeepers”, etc. I’ve even seen ppl mentioned “Black Metal can be goth” 🤷🏻‍♀️.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yes, I'm sure that there are some racists within the scene but they will be the minority and if they ever did come out, they would not be getting backed up or supported at all so I think that should say it all. On the thing abouot "Elder Goths", the ones who say that "Goth is a mindset", these people are most likely the people who actually didn't fully get into the music to know what goth music actually was. These are the people who usually call bands like Depeche Mode, Tears For Fears, The Smiths, and Morrissey as "Goth" bands when they aren't. The main Goth group I'm in on Facebook is "Goth Subculture", it's the only active group that actually keeps things in check and keeps the music strictly Goth-centered which makes it easier for newbies to get the full on Goth 101 knowledge. All the other public Goth groups? Eh they are filled with the people you mentioned who cry "Gatekeeper" or "elitist" and usually have this "anything goes" type of mentality where they let people post anything there regardless if it's relevant to Goth and that is what further drives this stupid "Goth is a mindset" mentality. I just got tired of dealing with it and stuck with "Goth Subculture" since it was the only legit Goth group in the sense of keeping things organized and to the point.

[@thelastdaybreathinginetern1385]

Hi again, I told you that I'm a black goth and metalhead guy. I'm into the goth culture and metal culture. I've been a goth and metalhead for 12 years.. I have a short curly afro, and I feel like part of being goth is "straightening my hair." I know that's not the case because I already know it's about the music. But I feel like I can't wear the make-up because the whole "skin color thing." But I don't let that deter me from my love of both the Goth and Metal cultures. I usually get judged by white, and black norms. But I have met mostly other metalheads in my life, and punks, but barely any goths... I don't know if you will reply to this, but that is what I wanted to address to you.

[@KaiDecadence]

You don't need to have Straight hair to be Goth. Goth is not about that, it's just simply liking the music among the other music you like. Hair style and color is up to personal preference. The only reason I wear straight hair is because I like it but it's not a requirement in the least. And yes, Goths (actual Goths i.e people who are into the music) are quite rare to find so that's pretty much the norm unfortunately.

[@thelastdaybreathinginetern1385]

@@KaiDecadence Ok, thanks for the feedback 🦇🐺🐺🦇

[@queenapryllm8454]

I mean my sister was bit of goth growing up and I think some people thought it was weird but most folks weren't too weird. Granted maybe its because there isn't alot blk or ethnic minorities in goth people is weird to some folks.

[@KaiDecadence]

"a bit Goth". What do you mean? Was she listening to the music or do you just mean she was dressing in dark fashion because if it's the latter, that's not being Goth, that's being Darkly-Inclined or Alternative. Either way, I was mostly talking about behavior within the Goth scene to be honest.

[@theaterhobo]

16:12 First off, when that music from Rinaldo's shop started playing, I was shook 😂 I could fall asleep to that game's whole OST Second, I love how level-headed and thorough you can be. You've made some really informative vids that I've actually shared with friend interested in the community. Thanks for that.

[@KaiDecadence]

That song just really goes with the theming I like for my videos to have so I may be using it a lot from here on out haha. And thank you, I'm glad you and your friend have enjoyed the videos. :)

[@thelastdaybreathinginetern1385]

Is Siouxsie and the banshees racist? Because of the nazi images.. I just listen to Bauhaus, She Past Away, O.children, Shadow Age and many more, but Christian Death and The banshees.. I've been goth for 12 years, but I use to always look into the band on their believes, but over time.. I kind of stopped caring. What are some of your favorite goth bands? I work in a diverse, but mostly black town, and I don't get to many odd stares, people are use to me being goth, and a metalhead since I've been into it for 12 years. Did you ever get told, nice costume? 🤔 People thought it was nice, but didn't think you were seriously goth? And I can't remember if I had posted a comment on here, but I really enjoy this video. I found it very helpful to the many black and poc who truly want to get into goth, but are to afraid. I share the same thoughts with you on this discussion, one thing is that I have never been to a concert ever to see one of my favorite goth bands or metal bands perform.. I feel so bad, but I was unable to due to a strict mother and the whole, "it's satanic" thing.. sorry, one last question.. Has anyone thought of you as a satanist? My mother said maybe people do not like you because you are goth, and they still have those ideas that anything dark, and outside of the norm is considered...suspicious, evil, satanic etc... my mother knows that it's not like that, and I played some goth rock bands to show her, She liked some of it. Again sorry for the long comment, just wanted to ask all of these questions all at one time. Thank you, your feedback would be greatly appreciated.🦇🦇🎃🐺

[@thegremlin3194]

I have always wondered why there are so few black Goths . I have never encountered Racism but a lot of elitist and posers who criticise others for a lack of tattoos and Goth labeled clothes .

[@scythescythe884]

i came across your channel sometime ago... im glad i found you again. i really missed the content!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@jaemelancholy1684]

I've got a question, do you know of any modern goth music? Most goth music is usually from the 80s and 90s. Is Lebanon Hanover modern goth music? Not trying to be rude I'm just asking since I really want to listen to some.

[@KaiDecadence]

Right so yes I do know a couple modern Goth bands that at least came out in the 2010s+ The thing is that the reason why it seems like a lot of Goth music came out in the 1980s-1990s is because goth music did get a bit of a decline in the 2000s. It was still around but more obscure and not as many albums coming out until about 2009+ So if I were to suggest some bands that came out in the 2010s at the very least... - She Past Away - Drab Majesty - La Scaltra - Christine Plays Viola - Kaelan Mikla - Frozen Charlottes - Rule of Thirds - Double Echo - Horror Vacui - Twin Tribes - Ash Code - Crimson Scarlet - White Hex - The Flatfield - Belgrado

[@MelodyZenith]

So, I found this interesting because I'm a recording artist that dabbles in many genres, so despite being dark inclined I'm not fully considered "goth" because I find the style of goth limiting, I like hooks, Melodies, good chord progressions and riffs. Wowever considering rock came from blues, which came from POC, and Goth came from "Punk" I actually don't agree, POC did basically invent goth because goth comes from rock as a genre. There's no "Genre of music pops out of nowhere" Every genre has influences so you can trace the origins back.. Also check out Screaming jay Hawkins. Btw there is a black male in my band and he's extremely talented and talks often about being discriminated against by the alt communities and gate keepers, so idk... good video though, got me thinking

[@KaiDecadence]

If you don't listen to Goth music, you're not Goth. That's just the reality of a music-based scene. And "limiting"? I disagree. Goth Rock doesn't sound like Ethereal Wave or Darkwave which are subgenres of Goth. And nope, Black people did not invent Goth rock. Just because rock music has origins in blues music, it doesn't make it the same. Influence =/= same as, it's just that, influence. Screaming Jay Hawkins was NOT a goth band/musician neither, he was a shock artist who played Blues music and touched up on some macabre themes in his lyricism and imagery but again, just because he did those things doesn't make him Goth by association. Goth does not nor has it ever had a stranglehold on dark imagery and theming. As for your friend. Not sure what it has to do with Goth specifically. If he's marketing himself as a Goth musician/band but doesn't play Goth music and thus is not getting picked up at Goth clubs that play Goth music, then it's not discrimination, its just that his music is not what they play at their venue because it's not the genre they specialize in. You have to be more specific about the "discrimination".

[@MelodyZenith]

​@@KaiDecadence I disagree still. When a musician is "influenced" by a sound they are trying to sound like it, or taking different musical elements and combining them together, but taking an element of it, thus the origins of goth music lie with POC period. Darkly inclined music expressing something negative comes from HARDSHIP and pain. If you forgot that what's the point of even listening to the music if pain can only be justified by very limiting musical elements. And no, sorry I don't agree. I am a multi-instrumentalist and vocalist, and most goth music that's considered "Good" uses elements of other genres because the goth sound limits musicianship and vocal ability period, because if someone starts singing say, opera-style like Lingua Ignota, technically you could say that's not goth despite being beloved by the goth community. I don't agree, I think it's very limiting and keeps the subculture in a time machine

[@KaiDecadence]

​@@MelodyZenith Again, Influence =/= same as. goth music does not come from blues, it comes from post-punk and post-punk was started in the UK. I really don't have time to get into all of this but in this video I dissect the Goth genre and it's sub-genres providing sound cues to show what makes it what it is. > kzbin.info/www/bejne/anjWpJ6PeqmaqKc > "𝑰 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒌 𝒊𝒕'𝒔 𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒚 𝒍𝒊𝒎𝒊𝒕𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒌𝒆𝒆𝒑𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒔𝒖𝒃𝒄𝒖𝒍𝒕𝒖𝒓𝒆 𝒊𝒏 𝒂 𝒕𝒊𝒎𝒆 𝒎𝒂𝒄𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒆" First off, sounds like someone hasn't been paying attention to the plethora of goth bands that has come out in the last decade. Selofan, She Past Away, Drab Majesty, Twin Tribes, Sonsombre, Altar of Eden, Double Echo, The Cold Field, Empire Forest, Mors Syphilitica, Lesser Care, Grey Gallows, Morosinthe, The Black Veils, Hidden Hand, Flesh of Mourning, IAMTHESHADOW, Moon Noir, Element, No Exits, Even the Rain, Gypsy Priest, Soft Kill, A Transition, Echoscope, etc. I could go on and on, many newer Goth bands that came out in the last decade who've taken the goth sound and tweaked it a bit but still kept it to the gerre roots of what make the genre what it is and don't sound like the first wave i.e 1980s goth music at all. And as I said, a goth rock band like Sonsombre or Miasma sounds nothing like a darkwave band like Selofan or Element and especially not ethereal wave like Mors Syphilitica or Violet Tears. So no, absolutely not, it sounds like you need to maybe listen to more goth music that came out in the last 10 years or even check out more 90s bands when the subgenres were getting more experimentation done. As for it being "limited", tough. That's what happens when one listens to only one music genre. That's like a Metalhead complaining that all metal sounds the same at it's core and then gets upset that a hard rock band like Velvet Revolver or Hinder aren't considered Metal bands even though those bands feature heavy riffs in some of their songs. Aside from my disagreeing that goth music sounds the same when it doesn't, this is also why one shouldn't limit themselves to one genre of music and Goths (People who listen to goth music) do not do this typically and usually listen to other kinds of music, myself included. And just because a fan of goth music also likes a non-goth band/musician, it doesn't make said band/musician goth by default.

[@Batticia]

Remember the band O children the lead singers is Black

[@KaiDecadence]

Already covered in the video lol

[@manakahas4927]

That bit about the representation is spot on! Be the change you want to see!

[@xmetalfacemamix]

To be fair, with the “Goth was made by black people” thing, they could in fact, argue that rock music was made by black people (there is a lot of evidence for this) and therefore “stolen”. I don’t agree with it being “stolen” but without rock music there would be no goth rock. Also, in my opinion, none of us can really say if black people have been turned away in the scene because there’s a reason why there’s so few black musicians in goth bands. And I’m sure it’s not ONLY because black people aren’t interested. Also, most of us weren’t around in the 80s/90s goth scene, so we don’t really know. For that, you’d probably have to ask someone like GothicSoulflower, she’s awesome. I’m not saying her experience is the only one tho. However, I do agree that I have never faced racism within the goth scene but boy have I gotten a lot comments from other black people 🙄🙄.

[@xmetalfacemamix]

ForeverDreamWithinADream Rock n Roll was full on inspired by and probably made by black people, if you watch GothicSoulflower’s channel about being black and goth. She actually mentions that when her grandmother was young, rock music was called “nigger music” or “race music” 😂😂. Elvis was literally taking from black rock artists. I do agree that we can all share music but let’s not deny the history.

[@rubaidaallen2764]

Rock music was invented by Black people. No doubt about that.

[@KaiDecadence]

What ForeverDreamWithinADream said about the influence thing. It's a building block essentially and that's why it still sounds redundant when people say that Goth music was created by Black people. I'm not saying you're saying that but I've heard some people say this and I just cannot help but laugh because it reeks of insecurity thinking that black people need to be at the front of every little thing, even if it's not something relevant at all. And I know Gothic SoulFlower, awesome person.

[@beatnik111]

as a white person of many subciltures ( grunge goth punk and college rock ) i get sick of people saying black or anyone whos not white cant be this bez they this way i always say 1st of all why???? and 2st of all was black folks who made rock n roll????? i mean just why??? + when i was younger i use to be super into old school hip hop i been told many times you cant lising to at bez your white am like why???? music hads no color lising to what ever you what i lising to everything :) good video man by the way i use to be grunge sickness and am raddude777 on deviantart :) LOL

[@kaleidojess]

This happens to black metal heads too but I wouldn’t say it’s often at least not in my experience.

[@KaiDecadence]

What happens?

[@Pogokoala]

What's your thoughts on sonsombre?

[@Pogokoala]

Wow it was not what I was looking for but the video itself is very good!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks 😊

[@Nightsong93]

I appreciate your insight Yes, individual people and individual companies do stupid stuff that makes goth look bad, but its a very small percentage. Most goth clubs are safe spaces and ive even seen people get banned for nasty behavior.

[@KaiDecadence]

Er as far as "companies" go with the two I highlighted, my point was that they AREN'T even Goth lol. So it should be relevant to Goth~

[@popcornpanda1763]

Situations like this are the reasons why Rap music over shadows goth culture.

[@KaiDecadence]

No it isn't. Goth music was never meant to be mainstream, it's a very unconventional sound compared to pop and Rap & Hip Hop music which is made to be catchy which is easier for the masses to get into. Like for example, I've played Goth music around my coworkers before and they just didn't like the sound except for one but he was a fan of Indie Rock so it made a little more since that he'd enjoy it.

[@geekchic8798]

It doesn't matter if you're Asian, black, white or so on to be a subculture like the Goth subculture.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep

[@Ichigo-zg8jq]

I shop at killstar from time to time and I mostly considered as Goth. They do have non white models.

[@KaiDecadence]

You say that you're "considered" goth. What does that even mean? Do you listen to bands like Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, She Past Away, London After Midnight Fields of the Nephilim, Lebanon Hanover, Selofan, and Twin Tribes (to name a few)?

[@KaizenKitty]

O.Children have a nice sound!

[@serenitydeath02]

I know this is off topic but is there a website where I can find that Christian Death mug? Anyway, good video and keep up the good work.

[@KaiDecadence]

Unfortunately no, It was just a prop gag that I made in Photoshop to illustrate my point lol.

[@serenitydeath02]

@@KaiDecadence Lol okay, that's cool.

[@MugenWarriorKun]

I believe we blacks play a big part. Goth is of European Victorian origin right and you know with the history between yts and blks I can understand why blk people wouldn't want anything to do with Europeans and they see you as a traitor. I call bs on that because not all European folk are monolith. They are open to anyone being in. People don't see the issue being both sides. Yts hates blks blks hates yts. The doors made thier music for everyone such as Krsone made is hip hop for everyone

[@KaiDecadence]

> 𝘎𝘰𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘶𝘳𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘢𝘯 𝘝𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘢𝘯 𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘪n No, Goth is NOT Victorian. The only truthful thing you said in that is that yeah, Goth did come from the UK, specifically the UK Post-Punk music scene that eventually gave birth to the Goth genre. That is where Goth comes from. It's old but it's not that old, you're confusing Goth and Gothic, both are not the same. One's a music genre that also created a music-based scene, the other is a literary term. And as I said in the video, if a black person is that bothered to not open their mind and enjoy the music for what it is, that is on them but the definition of being a Goth aka liking Goth music doesn't change just because of your skin color. That's just the truth. And no, the Doors are not a Goth band. They were an influential Psychedelic rock band but just because they influenced some of the early first Goth bands, doesn't make their music Goth by default, just an influence. And if you watched the video, I went into some history about how there were black musicians who did take part in the Goth scene. There aren't many but they did exist, musicians who helped make actual Goth music.

[@MugenWarriorKun]

@@KaiDecadence I was using the doors in general as an example of making music for folks regardless of skin tone. Would you say it takes elements from Victorian with the dresses and blouses minus wearing all black. Or is more from the Scottish or norse with the symbols and necklaces and chains.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@MugenWarriorKun Sure but the Doors have nothing to do with Goth so it was kind of pointless to bring them up in this context since they were a Psychedelic Rock band. and as I already said, I shared in the video black musicians who did contribute to the Goth genre. > 𝑾𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒔𝒂𝒚 𝒊𝒕 𝒕𝒂𝒌𝒆𝒔 𝒆𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒕𝒔 𝒇𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝑽𝒊𝒄𝒕𝒐𝒓𝒊𝒂𝒏 𝒘𝒊𝒕𝒉 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒅𝒓𝒆𝒔𝒔𝒆𝒔 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒃𝒍𝒐𝒖𝒔𝒆𝒔 𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒖𝒔 𝒘𝒆𝒂𝒓𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒂𝒍𝒍 𝒃𝒍𝒂𝒄𝒌. No I wouldn't say hat. Actual Goth as I already said, came from Punk, Post-Punk specifically but the style that the musicians wore which is considered "Trad Goth" was just a combination of Punk and New Wave fused together but followed a darker color scheme. Then there was "Romantic Goth" that came around with some of the first wave Goth bands but expanded even more in the 90s with the second wave Goth music and it took on a more ethereal appearance as opposed to Punkish/New-Wave look of the 80s bands. People often confuse "Romantic goth" with "victorian" when it's not. I Ultimate though, Goth's style i.e that came from the musicians was rooted in Post-Punk/New Wave and DIY.

[@veronalove007]

I think these days there is all kind of cool crazy music going on. There's dark rap music like Tyler the Creator, Azealia Banks, Sudan Archives had one dark song. Our race has always been amazing at creating our own voice and style so magical things will keep happening.

[@KaiDecadence]

Sure but also keep in mind that Dark Rap is not goth music. I only say this because I see a few people saying it is when it isn't but yes, the dark tone can be used in any genre of music.

[@AutismCatto]

Kai, you came in HARD with those truth bombs! Mad respect!

[@KaiDecadence]

It's what I tend to do haha. Thanks!

[@hide904]

Great video as always Kai. I hope you're doing okay during this pandemic and all the protesting.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks. Yeah I'm doing alright, the protesting has died down where I live and everything has been relatively quiet lol.

[@hide904]

@@KaiDecadence I'm happy to hear that. Take care dude!

[@timmclovin]

Lol gothic metal is like spooky, emos and E-kids to goth. And no one talks about goth rock. And I agree with you on your topic of music that isn't goth. And people call me elitist and gatekeeping. And I mean blues, Louie Armstrong and screaming Jay hawkings all have songs that are over looked and sometimes Halloween. And Facebook groups are mostly emos who are nu goths. Like that page im in. I think Black goths are beautiful. Like my crush in high school. People just want to argue about something. I mean Native Americans and Mexicans have nothing but still love the music and fashion. And thank you for the bands in the end.

[@KaiDecadence]

If these "nu Goths" you're referring to are those people who moan and complain about people saying Goth is a music-based scene and they're the ones that thinking bands like The Smiths and Pale Waves are Goth bands, they aren't actual Goths anyway tbh. And people always bring up Screaming Jay Hawkins and Louie Armstrong (and Nico) and I'm like "Yeah and?". They're good musicians but they aren't Goth ones so why would I bring them up in a discussion about specifically Goth music? There's this ignorant claim that if a musician or band influences another band or musician of a different genre, that means the inspirational artist is that genre by association and that is false.

[@robertpetre9378]

The Goth scene like punk is inherently anti-racist but you will always get the odd idiots in any subculture.I suppose it’s just humans are inherently flawed and a couple of rotten apples spoil the barrel unfortunately. It’s interesting because I don’t really get this problem in the UK,I’ve met several black Goths who are more than happy to embrace the music which the subculture offers as a requirement to be a member.P.S Goth didn’t originate from London but actually originated from Leeds and Northampton the Batcave was in London but the club that Bauhaus performed in was in Northampton in 1979.

[@KaiDecadence]

Right and I don't disagree that there are some racist Goths out there but all I mean is that they aren't nor will they ever be the majority and that the scene doesn't encourage or support that behavior. And oh my bad lol.

[@robertpetre9378]

@@KaiDecadence That’s okay it’s just I’ve been completely destroyed in the past when I tried to say the Batcave was the originator of the subculture it had already existed for three years before the Batcave somebody in their 50’s completely tore me a new one LOL

[@robertpetre9378]

It seems like in the UK people in their 40s and 50s are pretty elitist when it comes to the subculture LOL

[@KaiDecadence]

@@robertpetre9378 Haha I understand

[@cheriellefranklin3121]

I loved the video. Straight forward as always. Not to mention you just gave me some more goth bands to check out.

[@KaiDecadence]

You're very welcome, glad you enjoyed it :)

[@thegremlin3194]

You have summed thing up correctly ,Its the opposite to Rap music where no white people would be involved in it until one person did Eminem . Unfortunately we haven't had a black Goth band yet so few black people follow this scene .Although being of mixed race I can not comment as I have the white gene , and my brother with the black gene isn't into Goth

[@KaiDecadence]

Well to be fair, with Rap technically the first white person who did a rap-like singing style was Debbie Harry from Blondie with their 1981 song "Rapture" but at the core, it's still a Disco song so not a full-on rap song and so with that, if you mean more full-on rap, there was Marky Mark and Vanilla Ice from the very early 90s before Eminem came around in the late 90s. As for Goth bands, at most we just have a handful of bands that feature at least one black musician like the ones I listed in the video but a full ensemble goth bland comprised of all black musicians? No that hasn't been seen yet.

[@thegremlin3194]

I forgot Vanilla Ice and Marky Mark .I remembered the Blondies Rapture but discounted it . Vanilla Ice came from a more privileged background and didn't change the street culture so much . Anyway other than my angry phase following Linking Park I'm not into rap , Its time we had a black Goth group . Can you sing ?

[@KaiDecadence]

@@thegremlin3194 Fair enough and nope, can't sing lol.

[@4ArchieLee]

This timeline now is much different but pretty sure the 90's would of been the actual test.

[@KaiDecadence]

Huh?

[@popcornpanda1763]

Someone should release a t shirt that says Hip Hop is black.

[@nathanwood4762]

Just watch out for bands like Death in June.

[@KaiDecadence]

To be fair though, Death In June aren't a goth band, they're an Industrial band

[@toxiknao8826]

I'm subbing your channel that Nocturne OST though xD

[@_a_flipist7239]

This is amazing! You and your instagram page is so inspirational for me.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thank you :)

[@AnthonyNekro]

Honestly this true. The whole Sonsombre drama is so toxic right now.

[@KaiDecadence]

What's happening with Sonsombre?

[@AnthonyNekro]

@@KaiDecadence The lead singer Brandon Pybus had some alt right and anti muslim groups on his page that a fan found. The fan asked and he apologized and said he didn't think that way anymore and took it all down. Some of his fans are responding toxically to the ones who like that he apologized and gave an explanation.

[@kaleidojess]

I’m all ears, I have an idea though.. it should be talked about more often imo ✨

[@ostwestfalischehochmoorlei4705]

Its a small scene, nearly all over the planet, but even in the "big goth culture countries", it is never a real big thing, other "scenes" are always bigger ore much bigger. So, it would be crazy to be unfair to people of colour, gender, sexuality etc etc in the same scene, just of that things, couse than its even a more smaller scene. If they are a...h..les ok, but not couse...etc. Over nearly 20 years, i meet many people just want to have a good time in a club, on a festival, at private meetings, ore have free time.... with other people that unterstand what they like ore/and like the same. Gender, colour, sexuality, etc have never been a thing, that is not what conected people to each other. Ok, it can be a second step in connecting, but first step is allways music, club, festival, other dark "hobbies and interessts".

[@KaiDecadence]

I don't know what you mean by "Big Goth culture Countries". Like if you're referring to Germany, that's not a Goth capital. It certainly is an Industrial place since a lot of Industrial bands came from Germany but not really Goth but aside from that, yeah.

[@r.ouellette6192]

If you want to listen to more artistic metal with some post punk influences try the DsBM genre. It's not goth but Saddness and An autumn for crippled children. Also, who's making OTOP mugs? I want one. Haha. Also goth/deathrock is a DIY genre and making your own clothing will always be 100% goth/punk af!

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh no one is making OTOP mugs, that was just a funny gag thing I made in Photoshop to make the point lol

[@r.ouellette6192]

@@KaiDecadence To bad I'd buy one.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@r.ouellette6192 Same haha.

[@lynxofblades4247]

Just found your channel and I love it so far. :)

[@KaiDecadence]

Thank you, glad you're enjoying the videos :)

[@xavierrestrelm9349]

you are so gathered and intelligent Kai

[@KaiDecadence]

Thank you :)

[@encara1]

Do yourself a great service go to the nearest large city.. Chicago, L .A. ECT..

[@jovaniolivares9460]

why? Im from LA and it sucks here. Im moving after being here all my life because this corona hoax killed it. we are being held hostage indefinitely. And the people here dont seem to mind. Its over. You cant go anywhere.. I went to a cafe yesterday and was kicked out for refusing to wear a face diaper. The mind control is beyond anything I've ever seen.

[@Nightsong93]

@@jovaniolivares9460 I heard most major cities in Cali are basically taken over by homeless people at this point :(

[@KaiDecadence]

I really do want to get out to a larger city one of these days. It's times like this where I wish I still lived in Cali LOL

[@jovaniolivares9460]

@@Nightsong93 Yeah, the democrats who run theses cities are ensuring their destruction. We're going to end up like Detroit. And with these ridiculous lock downs, people who can afford to are starting to leave. Honestly. its no different than a small town now in the sense that theres nothing to do and nowhere to go since they closed everything. No more night scene, no bars, clubs, no culture, parties.. essentially nothing that used to make people want to pay a lot of money to live here. Nothing feels the same, they let some restaurants open with insane regulations, but sill, theres a weird sadness and cloud above the city. I cant describe it. Whatever spell they put us under is really working. I pay so much in taxes.. as I wait around for Gavin Newsom and Garcetti to release a bunch of prisoners into the streets after they defunded the police. That has me scared, and im seriously looking into leaving.Maybe Mexico/baja. Something scary Is right around the corner, I can feel it in the air here... and its planned, which makes it extra sinister. I hope to God Im wrong, but I know too much about history to not see the patterns on repeat, this is a communist coup taking place. Things will get messy. Im not an alarmist, I hate people like that, its just I cant help but see the signs everywhere.. the writing is on the wall and I dont think we're ready for what may come.

[@Nihilism110]

awesome glad i subscribed

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@shannonfairywalker2466]

yay! Thanks for the recommendations :)

[@KaiDecadence]

You're welcome :)

[@lunalamiah1986]

I don't understand all your video because I am italian, not so able speaking and understanding spoken english... ;( bytheway, I think that we could asking if "is Rap\Soul\Jazz\Funky\Blues\Gospel racist against white people?" It's absurd. Music is genderless and raceless. Maybe we can say that "Oh, Blues was invented by black people at the end of XVIII century" or "Oh, Batcave was invented by english people in the '80s" or (if we ponder about the gender, "classic music was invented by male musicians in Austria's, France's and Germany's ancient centuries) but this don't mean that "only black people can listen and play Blues" or "only english people can listen and play Batcave" or "only germanic males can listen and play classic music!" By the way, your videos are useful for pondering the problem. Here in Italy, I suppose, black teens listen mainly rap, reggae and trap music.

[@kaleidojess]

At 6:25 like on Instagram lol

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

Kind of off topic, but lots of misogyny in the metal scene. Lots of objectification of women.

[@KaiDecadence]

I can't really comment since I'm not nor have I ever been involved in the Metal scene and the only thing I know about the sexist part of it was when I watched a documentary for the Metal band Kittie and how they mentioned how it was a bit difficult to meld into the scene as an all-female fronted Metal band since it was still rare to see back in that time.

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

@@KaiDecadence yeah, it's difficult.

[@chrisbrownie1511]

Is scarlxrd considered goth

[@KaiDecadence]

No, he doesn't make Goth music. It's Alternative.

[@ameliaselene6550]

You forgot to do the pinned comment with bands :(

[@KaiDecadence]

Sorry. I uploaded it right before I had to leave for work and I didn't have time to do the pinned comment but I will when I get home 🙂

[@mortchen5494]

Not all goth people are white or pale.

[@KaiDecadence]

Didn't say that...

[@mortchen5494]

@@KaiDecadence You and I are proof of that LOL

[@starwraithspacemarine8605]

Hey Kai have you played Doom Eternal yet? that game is fucking awesome dude.

[@KaiDecadence]

No I have not, I'm not really into FPS games to be honest lol

[@starwraithspacemarine8605]

Oh your missing out dude bummer, so what kind of game do you play?

[@KaiDecadence]

@@starwraithspacemarine8605 Take a look at my gaming channel Decadent Gamer to get a glimpse lol

[@niellalien]

Good video! More people need to see this.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@movingdragons]

Love it. Music is for everyone