Is it DANGEROUS for Catholics to Have a 401K? w/ Jacob Imam

[@kerrynevins3823]

This topic and financial issues in general warrant a debate between Jacob and somebody else. He’s the only person I know of that holds these views and I believe we should have him and somebody who opposes him discuss it in depth.

[@Seethi_C]

Trent Horn?

[@kerrynevins3823]

I’m sure Trent would oblige.

[@thesonnen447]

Fr Gregory Pine or Fr Thomas Joseph White

[@kayleebaginski]

Yes I absolutely agree. I felt confused the first time Jacob came on the show discussing similar topics. I haven’t heard his point of view before. I work hard to invest and, I suppose, I’ve been doing it the “worldly” way? I’d love some clarification and even a guideline on how to be a truly financially responsible Catholic

[@tpangle17]

I would LOVE that!

[@genghiskhan2180]

I like Jacob's points on humility in old age and being cautious of blind investing, but investing still is the responsible thing to do. I think we need simply need to take greater involvement into our choices for investments. Totally agree that families should stick together through old age, though retirement savings are still useful to promoting the good of the family and the future endeavors of children.

[@LadyOneKC]

This is something I’ve thought about and struggled with. All of it; the 401k, taking care of my parents and in laws, what to teach my children. “As a Society we have not been living like Christian’s.” That was a very powerful statement for me and something I think can sum up a whole host of issues for our society. Really great, Matt. Thank you. Giving me much to consider

[@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81]

The plural of Christian is Christians. No apostrophe.

[@marvalice3455]

@@17cmmittlererminenwerfer81 it's probably an auto correct issue. autocorrect tends to error on the side of possesdive rather than plural

[@timfitz1327]

@@marvalice3455 good thing somebody is paying attention. Can I put " paying" in quotation marks. I don't know if it is proper punctuation but I did it myself not the smart phone or computer. If I pay attention I really want to go to heaven!!!

[@marvalice3455]

@@timfitz1327 I'm not sure what you are saying here.

[@timfitz1327]

Sometimes the long way around can be the short way 🙂

[@ThaniaSKlein]

Thank you for this challenging topic! A lot of food for thought! To be honest, I was a bit taken aback by Jacob’s stance on the 401 K. But then I thought about my Mexican culture. At least in the rural town my parents grew up in Mexico, the extended family still exists. There’s no such thing as a 401 K. The kids (now adults) of the parents take care of their parents. I think there’s something beautiful to that! I totally plan on taking care of my parents, God willing, when they are older and need the help. My dad and his siblings are currently taking turns at taking care of my grandma because my grandpa (her husband) passed away 3 years ago. My grandma doesn’t seem to worry about how she’ll be fed the next day. She simply relies on the Providence of God and her children. No one thinks that’s weird to do or abnormal. It’s simply the way of life.

[@MikeXCSkier]

"I think there’s something beautiful to that!" I think it's extremely selfish for parents to expect their children to take care of them.

[@ThaniaSKlein]

@@MikeXCSkier It can seem selfish here in the U.S. since it values independence and success way more than the family unit ex) mothers choosing to go back to work so they send their children to daycare so that she can work for another man and the children be raised by another woman. Choosing the material world over your family is selfish.

[@MikeXCSkier]

@@ThaniaSKlein The way I see it, investing for retirement so my children do not need to support me when I'm old IS choosing family first. I'd rather die working than be any sort of burden to my children.

[@Ellecram]

@@MikeXCSkier And your children might die before you. Then what? Mine did.This kind of thinking is ridiculous.

[@MikeXCSkier]

@@Ellecram Exactly.

[@eliseonajourney370]

Matt, I’m all for free speech, but you have a huge platform with people who look to you for life advice. If even one father or mother stops saving for retirement after watching this video, you will have facilitated the financial ruin of a family. This man makes good points, but some of them are downright foolish. With great power comes great responsibility.

[@Ellecram]

@@Recusant_ Very much so. These people have lost their minds.

[@coreybrowning9659]

I haven't watched this video yet, but I think I ought to offer some thoughts on recent trends. Let me say upfront that I am a massive fan of Matt Fradd and have spent hours watching on YT and listening to his podcast. That being said, I also find myself as of late slipping away from the church, scandalized by PP Francis, by a deep rooted skepticism, and by my own sin of course. None of this is the fault of Matt Fradd, which should be obvious. Nevertheless, as one slowly slips away from the church, and finds themselves engaging less and less with mainstream catholic topics of debate that are inhouse rather than out (eg communion on the tongue or in the hand), those very niceties of debate seem less and less poignant and pressing. One then finds themselves at a point where they need the barebones of the gospel to bring them back in. All of this is a preface for a simple fact that I have observed in myself, namely, that having found myself in this predicament outlined above, and still subscribed to this channel, I get notifications weekly about videos, and the topic titles only further distance me from the Church inasmuch as they seem so very radical from the POV of one slipping away/and or completely divorced from the faith. such topics include this clip, the seeming obsession with yoga, and others. To be quite frank, these inhouse topics are truly preaching to the choir, for as a catholic with a decent knowledge of inhouse issues, given the fact that I am a bit alienated from the church currently, I find these weird video topics off putting. I mention all of this because I can imagine that to someone who is completely divorced from church teaching, the moment they see a big youtuber rant (seemingly rant from their POV. thought indeed this is a caricature, Matt Fradd doesnt rant) about cell phones and how bad they are, how evil yoga is, whether reading fiction is a sin, or if a 401k is bad or not, the moment that person sees one of these clip titles, surely a likely thought might be "look at these crazy catholics, completely out of touch with reality". That person might then be dissuaded from ever truly considering the barebones of the gospel, thinking that to be a Christian one has to reject yoga, reject phones, 401k, etcetc [though I know that fradd certainly never suggests such things in his actual videos] I know that these are actually serious topics, and I know that they should be discussed, yet I also have an inkling how offputting they might be to someone who has perhaps a natural curiosity yet is still on the other side so to speak. Or perhaps it might interest them, who knows. Anyways thanks for reading this [actual] rant. I'm sure the thoughts are a bit disorganized but I wanted to put them out there anyways. Please pray for me that I might soon be reconicled to mother church and Christ our Lord.

[@sasukeCS7]

Completely agree with these points. I am a big fan of this podcast and have learned amazing things, but some titles and topics as you said can be off-putting. I think Romans 14 really speaks to this issue of disagreements within the church about things secondary to the Gospel, and how ultimately it is different for everyone.

[@alexrdy1986]

I agree with you and pray for you also. Greetings from a Catholic priest from Brazil. Pear for me as well.

[@dreww7667]

Corey you won't find Christ on KZbin. Go to adoration and spend time in silence

[@olivzgizid]

Corey I will pray for you. From personal experience, and as a fellow sinner, I strongly suggest going to confession on a very regular basis. Once a month, or more frequently like once a week, if necessary. This pleases the Lord greatly and He will give you more of His grace as you do this. 🙏

[@Verum_Summa]

I see what you are saying, but even the barebones of the gospel shock these people divorced from the church, there is very little a catholic could say about their beliefs that wouldn't shock the common public nowadays. I think the semi-solution to matts issue of scaring away new comers to the faith would simply be giving videos more palatable titles. Not false "easy going titles" just less appalling to some. instead of "is it dangerous for a catholic to have a 401k?" something more along the lines of "what is one truly partaking in when they have a 401k?"

[@ChaZarudo]

Your children have free will...just because you "invest" in them doesn't mean they won't throw you in a state nursing home.

[@missNuggie]

I laughed out loud when I read your comment. It's true! 😆 But I pray they won't.

[@ChaZarudo]

In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has. - Proverbs 21:20

[@apracity7672]

There is a proverb that says we should leave an inheritance to our children’s children, i dont see how that’s possible without investing. However, i agree that we shouldnt invest in wicked companies

[@Jkp1321]

Life insurance is the least expensive way to leave an inheritance

[@spyroninja]

Life insurance is a scam

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJmzqZZ9n9-Ue7s

[@marvalice3455]

there are "tons" of ways. mostly by realizing that money is not the only thing you can pass on.. and of course, the church is our most valuable inheritance

[@Jkp1321]

@@spyroninja source - "dude trust me"

[@curlyguybry]

If Jacob is to be consistent with his argument not to save for retirement, that means he would also have to reject social security or any other public pension. They are, after all, publicly funded forms of retirement savings. Therefore, the crux of his argument is that retirement itself it antithetical to Christian belief. After all, if one can’t rely on an income through accumulated investments the only choice they have is to work until they die or become so sick they become a burden to others. As a discussion between two healthy 30-something men, what is being lost in this discussion is that retirement can be a means to increase one’s commitment to Christian living. The energy one is obligated to dedicate to his/her employer can be directed to the needy in one’s community. Time at work can be redirected to daily mass attendance and in supporting other activities within one’s church. Charitable giving can increase, as is so often the case with the retired. Instead of spurning the notion of retirement and retirement savings, I would suggest a better path is to imagine what a Christian retirement looks like, how much money is needed to achieve that goal, and then to attain the savings (through ethical investments) to live that life.

[@guillermouribe1169]

I'm not going to lie, when I read the title I was thinking "Yeah I can't see myself agreeing with this", but I can respect the points that he made. I found especially eye opening where the interest money from these investment funds go to. I think its important to bring to light some of these issues because I would have otherwise not known the difference between investment and what are good options to have when it comes to setting up a retirement plan and a savings plan in general.

[@vbottoni]

The fact is its almost impossible to not cooperate remotely/materially with evil. I mean...this video is on KZbin! Big tech!

[@anthonylozano8035]

lmao exactly

[@garry_wshld]

Unrelated to the topic. If you want to access the broad public you have no other choice but to use KZbin. As I understand the topic in American these employees have the choice to participate in these investment schemes or not.

[@garry_wshld]

@Brian Farley No website is close to KZbin. Read numbers and articles on the topic. It's a monopoly. So no, it's not just less elastic

[@xiomarablanco5598]

I know but God always gets good things out of bad things for the good of all, including the evil doers, they may be receiving special graces for their conversion by indirectly letting us benefit of these excellent programs. God is God, all knowing, all merciful.🙏🙏🙏

[@harmonygordon6901]

This was very thought provoking. I learned MUCH TOO LATE in life about the corruption of the 401K accounts. God help us to form a new way of life that isn't piggybacking upon slave labor and abuse of kids.

[@CTdonnner1991]

He didnt give any moral or theological reason to not make smart investments. He really just sounds like he has a very "Holier than thou" stance. What if you get cancer? Well guess what because you didn't save in preparation now your family is in cripping debt. In your old age you start developing health problems, as older people tend to do, but now that you didnt save for retirement your family is now heavily burdened. And Lord forbid your grandchildren also have health issues, now you've made it worse because you werent wise enough to save. This is a very foolish take.

[@davidrojas6457]

This was one of the most profoundly challenging 15 min of discussion I've watched in a long time. Really have to bite on this for a while.

[@Joker22593]

Using your children as a retirement plan is so scummy. You don't own them. A child leaves their parents and clings to their spouse. I agree with being careful and moral with investing, but no investing is a terrible idea.

[@danielcarriere1958]

I recently had to withdraw money from my 401K to help pay for my kids private Christian school.... did I do an unwise thing? It was tough to do, and I hope I don't have to do it again any time soon. But I thought my kid needed it.

[@spmcg_]

Their job is to take care of you when you're old, and not doing that is scummy

[@thomasbailey921]

Yeah that first sentence honestly couldnt be more wrong.

[@michaelibach9063]

Truth & Life App Matthew 19:4-5 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one'? The man leaves his mother and father. There’s nothing there about her leaving her family.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@danielcarriere1958 it’s not going to be there by the time you want it anyway.

[@benson0509]

Sounds far too scrupulous. I will be saving, not just for me, but for my wife, children, and grandchildren. I'd rather not foist poverty on my loved ones, when I could have done otherwise.

[@austinjoseph8849]

Catholic Church encourages poverty.

[@michaelibach9063]

Which is why Jesus, our example, was a homeless guy, who taught Truth & Life App Luke 12:18-23 18 And he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." 22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

[@austinjoseph8849]

@@michaelibach9063 Jesus wasn't homeless. He had many cousins who he could go to. And unlike you Americans, we people from Asian continent have tight bonds(from India). And think about it, Jesus is the second person in the trinity. HE IS GOD. He knows the happiness on this planet pales in comparison to the glory in heaven. And also he wasn't married. We, on the other hand live in the modern world with spouses and children and parents. We need to support them. And for that we need money.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@austinjoseph8849 Truth & Life App Matthew 8:19-20 19 And a scribe came up and said to him, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." 20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head." Truth & Life App Luke 9:57-58 57 As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head." What Bible are you reading? Seems pretty clear, do I need to check a different translation maybe or the Greek or the Latin? I’m pretty sure NO WHERE, means NO WHERE.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@austinjoseph8849 so Adam needed money to support his children or you want money because you don’t want to farm or garden?

[@fluff382]

If a child is going to take care of their parents, they might need to save up, knowing that there's a possibility that the parent might need to pay rent or buy a house or get medication, etc. Now whether or not we should be putting money into a 401k, that's a genuine issue that can be explored further. I don't have an answer since I'd need to look into it more. But saving up in general, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing unless done out of greed or for use in immoral ways. Besides, not everyone has children. I think this is a far more nuanced topic than can be addressed here. Interesting conversation though!

[@imakecats6983]

The ideal is that we form loving Christians societies where the elderly are taken care of. When love fails, money takes over.

[@Seethi_C]

@@imakecats6983 But who takes care of them if no one has any money in their savings accounts?

[@Seethi_C]

@@OrthoLou I don't understand how his advice works practically. You're supposed to have enough income to provide for yourself, your wife, your kids, and your parents, but without utilizing investments or savings. How money does he think we make per month?

[@LNSPath03]

What about Ave Maria mutual funds? As a widow, these accounts have sustained me.

[@berlinmiller4617]

This whole almost two hour discussion was very intetesting. You can tell these gentlemen have a Biblical world view.

[@Trwanddon]

This man has never gone hungry or homeless...Or gone through any tough times. God helps those who are wise.

[@michaelibach9063]

Which is why Jesus, our example, was a homeless guy, who taught Truth & Life App Luke 12:18-23 18 And he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." 22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

[@CMVBrielman]

I disagree with him, but I do believe his backstory is rougher than most of ours.

[@Canisius19]

@@michaelibach9063 And had wealthy friends like Joseph of Arimathea

[@michaelibach9063]

@@Canisius19 but still slept in the park

[@Canisius19]

@@michaelibach9063 another Christian who condemns poverty and the pursuit of wealth i the same breathe

[@folofus4815]

Is it sinful according to him to put my money in a bank if the bank invests in bad things too? (As most do)

[@dand8159]

You also couldn’t shop at most chain stores given that they give money to bad causes as well, fill up with gasoline, etc.

[@jasonoakes7756]

Use KZbin … and the list goes on

[@wilhufftarkin8543]

@@dand8159 I recently had a discussion with a friend over this. My opinion is that while it's of course impossible to simply not buy anything, it's still possible to be prudent about it and minimize your consumption to a reasonable degree. It starts with small things like Netflix. How many people are still subscribed to Netflix, just because it's convenient and they reeeally want to watch that one show? You don't need that. Of course entertainment is important to a healthy life, but you don't need Netflix for that. One thing you really need is food and if you don't have the means to produce your own food, then you have no choice but to buy it at a store. Even then you can choose to buy food at a small local store, even if it's a bit more expensive. If there is no store like that in your area or if you are that poor, then you have no choice. The same goes for banks. If you live in a country that makes it impossible for you to live without a bank account, you have no choice. However, that doesn't mean that you have no choice in many other areas of life.

[@dand8159]

@@wilhufftarkin8543 I agree with you. This position is not on the extreme (such as complete negligence in consumption). The correct answer doesn’t also lie in the other extreme however which you point out here as it plays out in practice.

[@Ellecram]

@@dand8159 I like my evenings with Netflix et al. I work hard. I enjoy what I can when I can.

[@Seethi_C]

Do I need to choose between supporting my parents and starting a family of my own? At at 27, I can barely do one, let alone both

[@Beyondabsence]

To be reasonably cautious with our earnings, to save it for retirement, not overindulge, all good advice. But to do that and at the SAME TIME, put all our trust in God, surrender to Divine Providence, is a monumental task that very few can accomplish. As long as we're honest with ourselves, and constantly remind ourselves, while we count our money, that our trust in God is way below the mark, and that somehow we eventually WILL trust Him as long as we have a "safety" net (a hefty bank account), just in case...

[@apball1223]

Remote Material Cooperation. Trent Horn has already discussed this topic on a recent podcast that it’s not unethical to invest in your company’s 401k. If we followed jacob’s argument, then you also shouldn’t buy groceries, clothes, or suits in this broken world. You can’t control what your pizza man or business will spend his money you directly/indirectly give them. We would all have to live off the land and become hermits…

[@joncerda351]

I get this guys argument. We need to be cognitive about these steps. We have to be intentional without withdrawing from the world. It's about influencing the culture. We have to be practical but at the same time, this is the demand of the Gospel.

[@ActuarialNinja]

Please everyone save for retirement. Sound financial planning is part of the reason God gave us an intellect; so that we can use it to mitigate future risk and plan accordingly for the future. As for the companies that may support causes antithetical to the Church, (and Matt Fradd pointed this out) isn't that equally true of other things we buy (like are we sure our clothing wasn't made by child labor, are we sure the makers of our electronics don't give to Planned Parenthood, etc.).

[@DanUtley]

Amen. Based on this take by Jacob Imam, it sounds like the only thing you can be sure of is growing all your own food living in a home built from materials mined and refined from your own land. He points the finger at 401ks because, in my opinion, it’s the easiest. When you go buy bagels somewhere, have you FULLY investigated all the places that corporate entity might donate to? Do they pay their wheat farmers a fat price for their flour? At some point it becomes insane.

[@ibanezdudeck]

There's other ways to do save for retirement than 401k's. Buy rental properties, invest in a local business, purchase land and sell it off as you need cash. No, it's not as easy as giving someone else your money to handle, but it's often got a better return and you aren't contributing to the wall street manipulation. One friends parents bought up a few laundromats and car washes throughout their careers and now they have a stable income that they can mostly manage by paying a small handful of people.

[@michaelibach9063]

Which is why Jesus, our example, was a homeless guy, who taught Truth & Life App Luke 12:18-23 18 And he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." 22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

[@CMVBrielman]

@@DanUtley I’m reminded of the show The Good Place (not the most biblical of sources, obviously). By the rules in the show, someone could earn points to get into heaven by doing good deeds back in the medieval era, but doing the same today would result in so many negative side effects that every single action damned you to hell.

[@mariateresa9965]

@@michaelibach9063 🌹✝️🙏Amen!

[@xiomarablanco5598]

I’m so grateful with my husband for begging my elderly parents to move in with us (which they never accepted) and for taking care of them in every way in the end of their lives. We were blessed to have my mother visiting us for a whole week before departing to heaven. God in his generosity allowed her to live her last days in our home, where she knew was deeply loved and appreciated. She passed during her sleep, quietly and peacefully.🙏♥️🙏

[@maryclaudettevencio5419]

Jacob has just made me think of assessing where my $ is going. Call it a very radical way of trusting GOD and call for radical humility. GOD bless you all! 🙏🏻🥰

[@cinnabun117]

I think this is spot on except it forgets the most important enabler or this dependant to provider to dependant cycle, which is that until recently parents would pass on a trade, a business, or land to their children. Oftentimes now we simply go to work and let the daycare or nanny do their thing, and then however many years later "oh I was supposed to set them up for success so I could depend on them in my old age? Weird."

[@Damian1975]

I don’t want my daughter to be burdened looking after us Financially. I want her to be able to take care of her children. My wife and I are working to pay of our moderate little house so that she will inherit it to give her and her husband options.

[@ibanezdudeck]

There's a distinction between saving for retirement and having a 401k. You can invest in things like land, rental properties managed by group, things like car washes and laundromats that are low overhead businesses you can manage on the side. It's not as easy cuz you can't invest $5 at a time, you have to put up tens of thousands up front, but if you put your 401k money into an "investment account" and save up to buy a small rental property, etc, you can do it. One of my teachers has an Airbnb where his son rents the upstairs and gets a small share of profits for helping with cleaning, etc and they rent 2 rooms in the basement. It makes $5k/mo on avg which is as good as a lot of peoples 401k payments but it has residual value that can be passed on to the next generation instead of just slowly draining a 401k account.

[@justinjustinjustin10]

Al far too risky. Your land may never result any any higher value, never get into rental properties either hell no

[@ibanezdudeck]

@@justinjustinjustin10 those are all opinions. Your stocks in your 401k may also crash. My grandpa bought a house for $25k in the 70s and was able to rent it for 40yrs before selling it for $60k with minimal investment back into it. Were there occasionally bad tenants? Yes. Was it more work than giving someone else your money to trade random stocks? Yes. Was it a bad investment? Absolutely not.

[@justinjustinjustin10]

@@ibanezdudeck $35k increase over 40 years is nothing to gloat about, in fact that's horrendous increase in value. Sure renting can be profitable though but not worth the risk. There's no convincing people so just go do it folks. I follow the advice of John boggle when investing

[@CC-dk9mf]

As a person not fitting the mold set forth here, I think I have an obligation to save for retirement. I have no children nor spouse to care for me in my dotage. I can't house my aging father due to both our health issues. I do, however, try to support his comfort while he is living in a retirement home. That said, I feel more obligated than ever to ensure where my money is being invested. Thank you for making me think more clearly about this.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJmzqZZ9n9-Ue7s

[@TheCameronDavis]

This is quite an interesting topic. Many valid points, and some not so. One thing that struck me was the comment of how it’s insane that we live in a society where a mother cannot stay at home with their children. Would love to hear Matt’s thoughts on stay at home fathers, and mothers who have a promising fulfilling career.

[@MikeFreesinger]

One can use what is called a"Solo 401k" and invest with much more control. I'm a CPA and CFP, so this is not BS.

[@JaddenSinn]

Trent Horn does an excellent rebuttal to this idea (not necessarily this direct clip), and I would not do his points justice to write them here. So while I appreciate where Jacob is coming from here, I think he's missing the mark.

[@k-techpl7222]

In which video?

[@nemoriantalks4330]

Can you share a link?

[@Zeero3846]

Yeah, don't really agree, but also, I don't really see anything wrong with not having one either. He makes a good point about humility in investing in your children's desire to actually take care of you in your old age, and a 401k doesn't necessarily get us out of that situation either, especially if a really bad crash happens. Your children are your last fallback if you've got them, you're siblings if you don't, and finally your neighbors when you don't even have that. A retirement account is nothing more than just a layer of protection above all that. If you do have one, then it had better be on top of the plentiful investments you've already made into your children, your brothers and sisters, and your neighbors. On the other hand, when revealed by God that the works was going to go through a famine, God in his wisdom also set forth a plan to save the surplus grain to prepare for that time, not just to save Abraham and his children, but also the Egyptians and the whole world. Is it only okay if God does it? Are we not to be wise as well to the best that we are able? At the very least, what good things God does, we ought be at least be preparing to be able to do the same. I'll stop short of saying that 401ks are actually bad. They're just not strictly necessary, and we should at least be wary of what we making our earnings from, even if you are buying on the secondary market. Other holders still benefit from the price movements. Mind your investments, and hold your fund managers accountable if you can, especially if they purport to be morally responsible with your money. Additionally, from a purely secular point of view, one has to wonder whether the government encouraging a lot of your money to be held in custody until you hit a certain age is actually a good thing. It's not completely unprecedented that they'd find a way to take some or all of it for themselves if they're really in a tight spot. It's could be unlikely, but it's not unprecedented. I mean, why should we narrow our investment options to just what is available in retirement accounts? Sure we get tax benefits, but who's the one taxing us in the first place, and for what? Funding unpopular wars and unsustainable social programs that make things worse in the long term? Paying for immoral "medical" operations? Or maybe even bailing out huge banks and brokers that were definitely irresponsible with your money? What are you really building your kingdom with?

[@timfitz1327]

Two good ideas, healthy viewpoints

[@Ellecram]

And what do you do when your child dies like mine did? Then what?

[@Zeero3846]

@@Ellecram It's a tragedy that your child is gone, and I pray that he or she is in a better place, but if it wasn't already clear, I wasn't advocating for exactly one approach, but a priority of approaches, none of which should be ignored, even if there is a higher priority. Hope is not all lost for your child though. We do not stop providing for our children in death with any less love or priority as when they were alive. We cannot offer any of sort of savings from our physical wealth, but by the grace of God, we can live a righteous life full of hope, as we originally set out to do when we first knew of them, so that one day we might see our loved ones again in heaven with our prayers answered.

[@markrolinger3453]

In practice, I am not living out this interpretation of the gospel but I am not prepared to suggest that his interpretation is incorrect. How can anyone suggest that he is wrong in light of “sell everything you have and give it to the poor and follow me“ or “pick up your cross“? I acknowledge that I am not yet able to fully embrace God‘s providence and trust in his will for my life. I am working on it and listening to this podcast is part of that work.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJmzqZZ9n9-Ue7s

[@tomlabooks3263]

This is a case of legalism : “excessive adherence to law”. What do we know? What do we know about the grocery store chain where we buy food from? What do we know REALLY about an investment, even after they guarantee that everyone in that company is behaving in a christian way? What do we know?? Should we investigate everyone we interact with in our daily life down to all their past enterprises just for the fear of committing a sin?

[@billyg898]

Did you listen to the second part of the video? The idea of the "nest egg" is built out of the idea that we shouldn't have to take care of our parents when they get old, even financially, thus it makes sense for them to organize another means via a retirement scheme. Then we just repeat the same thing and a culture builds around rejection of our duties to our families. It's like parents saving so they can afford a daycare to take care of their children everyday, driving daycares in to becoming a necessity and needing govt funding to keep up with demand. It's all completely unchristian and the only way to break it is to stop the "nest egg" attitude and make the tough choice to do your duties. As for "investigating everyone we interact with", the Christian view is to assume someone is upstanding unless their is reason to doubt. For instance, a good priest will give communion to everyone who comes to receive it, unless he has reason to believe that the person is in a state of mortal sin. The difference is that people aren't entirely ignorant of what investments are happening.

[@peterkalpakgian2430]

As a traditional catholic who has worked in the 401k space for over a decade… this guy is way off base and isn’t even close to accurate in his understanding of investments and retirement plans… he says investing in a 401k is bad but then rails on the investments. So which is it? Is saving for retirement bad?Because that’s what a 401k is. Or is simply just the investments??? His position sounds more Islamic than Christian on this point.

[@Seethi_C]

I'm not seeing the dichotomy. Jacob is saying that investing in nefarious companies is bad, and most if not all 401k plans invest in these companies. He additionally said the idea of the saving for retirement at all should be questioned.

[@TrumpeterOnFire]

@@Seethi_C Saving for retirement is basically saving for a time when one is no longer able to work. If the question is, "can a Christian reasonably retire" well, there's no retirement from being a Christian. But retiring from the labor market isn't the same thing as retiring from being a Christian. Often, the "retired" members of a parish are those who build the most fruitful community within it. Someone who spends all their hours laboring for sustenance cannot provide much to a parish, but one who has saved to provide for their needs to the end of their life, can.

[@Jkp1321]

Sounds like Muslims are pretty based then

[@imakecats6983]

I seem to think a 401k is usury, amassing wealth and blind investment

[@marvalice3455]

@@Recusant_ so are most catholic countries. so what?

[@johntuturice7874]

Thank you, Jacob. You pose very good questions re: the roots of our investing and whether or not the investments are moral or not. Very few ask these questions and they need to be asked. That stated, it's difficult to do without 401k's or other retirement or investment accounts if one looks to accumulate wealth of any degree. What gives me some peace of mind is the ethical concept of remote material participation. In most people's cases, there is enough distance from the companies that they invest in which commit moral evil that they are permitted to keep the investments so long as: a) the product of the company is morally neutral or morally good, and b) they do not invest in the companies for the purpose of supporting the moral evil that the companies engage in. In some ways, it's like going to the corner store to buy milk or bread. The reason for patronizing the store is to get food for nourishment, which is a good. However, the person who works at the store may use some of their paycheck to commit moral evils such as drunkenness, hard drugs, prostitution, or worse. The evil that the store employ engages in is remote enough from the action of the person buying break or milk that the person buying the produce can have a clear conscience so long as they are not making their purchases at the store for the purpose of supporting the evil habits of the employee. The parable about how the weeds would be intermingled with the wheat while we are here on earth in our fallen state comes to mind. I also like the concept that children are the OG 401k. That stated, planning for the future is also a prudent outlook. Job comes to mind. He had an abundance of both children and material riches. The key is that, for him, everything is God's. Wealth is not wrong, per se. But, misplaced love of money is, as we all know, the root of all evil. With our baptismal promises, like Job, everything we have is God's.

[@jbell4574]

I’m confused about a point in this video At around 10:52, Matt questions the notion of relying on children (who are now adults) to care for their elderly parents who have not saved for retirement, as the children are the retirement plan. Matt brings up a good point that not saving up for retirement could then put financial strain on one’s own family (wife and kids) as one tries to care for their elderly parents. Matt then takes it back as he says something to the effect of “your [Jacob’s] son would provide for him.” I’m confused because isn’t there a point in which the adult trying to provide for both families can’t feasibly rely on their children, while their parents are already elderly? Like for many people, the kids would only be in middle or high school, maybe even elementary while their grandparents are in retirement. But if there are bills going to the grandparents (medical, etc.) then that WOULD strain against one’s own family (wife and kids). So I think Matt was on to something pushing back, but then he conceded to a point that still confuses me. Ergo, I still don’t see why having a retirement fund separate from a 401k isn’t the responsible thing to do.

[@emiliawisniewski3947]

He also assumes that a person's children are fit to take care of them. Not everyone's children are physical or mentally responsible enough. Some children require their own care well into their later adulthood, especially if they are themselves disabled. Some children die before their parents do, some children have their own children that need continuous financial support. It's a really naive argument. Have children and nurture good relationships with them, give them a good future so they can potentially assist you when you age. But don't expect them to or assume they will.

[@michelegeis2301]

YES!! Thank you for this! I was following Dave Ransey - got out of debt, own my house debt free, but when it was time to start hustling the IRA, I had nagging feelings that this doesn't match the words of Christ. Finally, I made the choice of voluntary "poverty" of owning a small home and savings. I am at peace with the multiple realities of being invested in my faith, family and spiritual portfolio. My treasure is in Heaven and my hopes are not based in the stock market, but I understand how this seems counter intuitive and may bring suffering to be accepted without complaint. Happy to hear this even discussed!

[@devon6294]

I agree with you. We are of the same mindset.

[@yhckelly]

I sincerely feel this guy's heart. The problem is what he suggesting is literally impossible. If we were to take this principal and apply it to our lives we would not be able to source anything. Not one thing. All resources can be linked back to some component of immorality somewhere. It's a fallen world. Dont love money, save, invest, manage your talent well, and follow God's heart for your life the best you can.

[@imakecats6983]

I get what your saying. But I think we should form loving Christian communities in which people can make steps to put our trust in relationships instead of broken money systems. Baby steps.

[@arthurholmes-brown7104]

This is challenging. I think many of us won't get much further than perhaps proactively sowing seeds for the next generation. i.e. my kids are already raised and adults but together we can maybe raise my grand children differently.

[@MCS1993]

Man, thanks for this video What he mentioned in.Minute 12:30 made me think a lot. God Bless you

[@Tabatista281178]

If we decide not to support anyone who are against what Jesus taught us, pretty soon we’ll find ourselves living in a cave. We are in the world, and Jesus know it, we have to use our intellect to be light in the darkness, not simply getting away from it.

[@matthewgregory6269]

I know it may be unpopular due to the Catholic/Protestant divide, but I'd highly recommend anyone discerning how to manage their money accordingly to the Bible to listen to Dave Ramsey's talks on biblical money principles. Prov 22:7: “The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender.”

[@Seethi_C]

I wish I was sitting in Matt’s chair so that I could actually push back on these ideas

[@dand8159]

Sounds virtuous on paper. In reality your money isn’t just an inflow of income and outflow of basic living expenses. If your adult child is already fully supporting you, their wife, and their 5 kids and you have no savings and need a surgery/get cancer/funeral costs/natural disaster then you’re not only drowning yourself but your child and everyone they must support. Retirement is already such a difficult tight rope to walk, this would make it almost impossible to do well, especially without any savings as he suggests. Also wouldn’t be surprised if he’s against insurance. “God will provide”. Yes. God will also provide the means for us to provide for ourselves. To reject them is not virtuous, but foolish and even insulting to God. Abel did not refuse to breed his sheep. He multiplied them and gave God his first. For Abel to never allow his sheep to multiply while saying he’s letting God provide… God DID provide. He gave the sheep for you to multiply. We have to use our intelligence. God does not want us to financially ruin our families (thought this was obvious).

[@imakecats6983]

We should form larger Christian communities that can help us over come the complete reliance on usury systems. The modern world destroyed community and everyone seems to love individualism that isn't Christian.

[@dand8159]

@@imakecats6983 most Christians don’t care about community unfortunately. There are groups who do that sort of thing but they’re all ethnic based.

[@CMVBrielman]

If you object to the way a company in which you are invested is being run, then, as a share owner, you have a right and an obligation to advocate for it to change. And that right increases the more you’re invested in it. I understand that that right is executed more indirectly with various funds, but it is still there. To not save for retirement in general, as Jacob here explicitly advocates, is entirely irresponsible and, quite frankly, unethical. It is not just your own children on whom you would become dependent, but society in general. It also requires your children to earn enough to support you in your old age. Sure, if they’re taking care of you, they’ll get the benefit of free child care, but they’ll be supporting 1-4 parents, and hopefully 2 or more children. This will force them into careers that can do that. Meanwhile, if your retirement plan is “my children will take care of me,” you’re not only assuming they will, and be willing to, but also that they’ll be in a position to. And this goes even further. I have money invested in an education account for my child. In fact, I have more money invested for their education than I do for my own retirement. It is just as blind as a 401k. Should I not put money away to ensure that my child gets the best education possible? And if the concern is that these investments themselves are unethical, then they’d be equally unethical for a childless person (which we all are at one point in our lives) to invest in them. Even though Jacob gives those people a pass. The more I think about what he’s said, the more flimsy it seems to me.

[@ryanburgess3762]

Spot on.

[@caseydub7546]

You should take that education money and buy then a rental condo or something so they can have some income forever… why spend 6 figures on a Ruinversitiy?

[@CMVBrielman]

@@caseydub7546 I said education and not college for a reason. Look into 529 accounts, you can do a lot with them. And suffice to say that I’m doing more than just that for financial planning.

[@MoraleHazard]

Just, no. This guy epitomizes the maxim that the perfect is often the enemy of the good.

[@michaelibach9063]

God is perfect, if God is the enemy of the good, I’m guessing it’s not really good.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@dickdestroye and

[@tomhenry3095]

Responsive investing was a solid take-away. Not planning for the future just rings foolish.

[@Marcello1b]

Excellent useful thoughts being shared here. Thanks !

[@aaronwyrd]

I appreciate exposing where investment money comes from, but telling people they should not save for retirement because their children will care for them sounds to me like a pathetic future honestly. A man looks after his family, not hopes they will care for him.

[@shawverr]

What this clip doesn’t and can’t show is Jacob and New Polity’s underlying philosophical basis. If you’ve read or listened to them, they make a very strong case that the worldview we are all born into, the water in which we all swim, is the post-Enlightenment classically liberal view that puts the freedom of the individual above the common good, above most everything. Go back and listen to the podcast series New Polity did on money. What parents used to pass on to their kids was “productive property “, not investment dividends. Jacob’s main argument is against blind investing, but it shouldn’t be hard to see how taking care of our parents is what Christ wants us to do since it’s, well, biblical.

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

I understand your argument about productive property, but then we should invest in that kind of property; a market garden, a rental unit, etc., rather than immoral investments. To say we should not invest AT ALL sounds like the height of folly. When Jesus said take no thought for the morrow, He meant do not worry about the morrow; not that the advice in the Book of Proverbs was wrong. Also, even if mutual funds are immoral for the reasons cited, we could still own individual stocks, carefully chosen.

[@shawverr]

@@sanjivjhangiani3243 Rental property requires a bit of finessing in terms of the intended result (are you helping people with a path to ownership) and when it comes to investing, I think Jacob might have more to say about money that’s made without work. But I think you’re correct in that any investment that’s made with conscience and purpose on our part is better than the blind variety. This all gets pretty complex in a hurry and is worth much deeper thought than a KZbin clip and a combox can give us!

[@valuedCustomer2929]

Talk to a financial advisor. This guy will leave you broke.

[@sengan2475]

Better broke than in hell

[@valuedCustomer2929]

@@sengan2475 I look to the Magisterium for guidance, not rogue fundamentalists

[@ThanksStJoseph]

Great insights!

[@justinbivens7314]

After listening to the majority of this. I completely see what he's getting at and I can agree with what he's saying here no question.

[@p_7ero]

bible says its a dishonor if a man leaves no inheritance for his children

[@imakecats6983]

If so, the bible is talking more about land and productive property. Not usury based money systems.

[@TheDjcarter1966]

Notice how he blows off Matt's question about the products you buy... probably would unveil his scrupulosity is selective....but if you want to really live it out via the Amish route then I'll respect your point of view.

[@imakecats6983]

I think they are trying to create local economies. One step at a time.

[@jgallagher853]

I’m shocked, and happy. Someone on here genuinely *thinking* about what a life of Christian faith entails. Catholic social teaching, and certainly Christianity, is fundamentally incompatible with capitalist society and life.

[@Ellecram]

Christianity and the rest of the religions are just a bunch of cults that want to control societies and people. Wake up.

[@adamcalvaneso9624]

Yes but investing in these companies only really matters if you're purchasing or giving loans in the primary market. Any stock that is in the secondary market has already had that capital investment and you're contributing nothing to that company directly. If anything you're taking away from these companies if they pay out any sort of dividend.

[@CatholicBossHogg]

A retirement wouldn't be necessary if we were having 8-10 kids each who would take care of you.

[@imakecats6983]

We should form Christian communities that will help each other. And turn away from the heresy if individualism.

[@tonyaiello5776]

It never ceases to amaze me how some Catholics can find sin in EVERYTHING

[@TheLifeProTips]

This isn’t so bizarre, it’s pretty simple. You are investing, and encouraging a company that isn’t dignifying humanity. It’s the “god of money” in todays society/culture that is blinding imo.

[@christianandrew1037]

I’m finding fellow Catholics increasingly wearisome to be around with takes like this. Faith isn’t anti common sense. Empiricism is the key. What works-What doesn’t work-in the world we actually live in. Please don’t let this man’s personal scruples twist your mind into making imprudent decisions. Also, some of these mutual funds and index funds are so diversified and so often changing that you cannot possibly keep up with each and every company and whether they are Catholic enough or not. You don’t have the capacity. Can we please live in reality?

[@catherinebyrne796]

Or we can truly surrender to Christ’s care

[@christianandrew1037]

@@catherinebyrne796 yes, by using the good sense and mind He gave us

[@jeffs6816]

How then do you justify your support of say, child labor, through your support of such funds?

[@christianandrew1037]

@@jeffs6816 First, I may not be at all. But Investing in mutual funds gives no money to companies themselves. If they are profiting off of child labor, then I would be benefiting from that if that’s reflected in their stock price. However, why stop there? Any technology you use is probably made by a company using child labor. Any bank you use is investing in some shady things. The clothes you buy and the food you buy and the gas you buy, because of the supply chain or other reasons, is involved in shady, nefarious things. Perhaps child labor. How do you justify that? What about patronizing KZbin? They make their money off of ads because of the viewers. How do you justify using KZbin? It gets ridiculous very quickly if you want to REALLY be pure in all your purchases. I’d argue, you can’t.

[@AlixPrappas]

Faith isn’t anti common sense? Empiricism is the key? What works and what doesn’t work in the world we actually live? What scripture says that? Where does Jesus or the apostles explicitly or implicitly say that? Jesus says to be his disciple you must deny yourself. Is that common sense? What about Matthew 26? “So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” Does that sound empirical or practical?

[@FavianShields]

"Values" is an effeminate word?" Lol. What?

[@christophergrillo5099]

I stopped contributing to 401k a couple years ago and have been contemplating closing my account for good and this conversation just may have convinced me. Just another carrot used by large corporations, does anyone remember 2009?

[@eliseonajourney370]

I remember 2009, and then I also remember that inflation is over 7% and the highest it's been since 1982...

[@ForTheReallys]

He has a good point about blind investing and funding companies that provide "evil as a service" for lack of a better term. However, I don't think I can agree on his general stance on investments. First of all, I think there's a difference between directly funding a company (through bonds or public offerings) and investing on secondary markets. I can definitely see the argument that you don't want to share in the profits of companies like Planned Parenthood through dividends, but would it be sinful to profit solely from the stock's appreciation? (I'm don't hold stock in Planned Parenthood and I'm more than willing to change mind on that idea) Secondly, I think you can liken funding with buying from a company. The difference being that in exchange for funding, you'd hope to receive a return as opposed to a product/service. If we do this, would we also say that buying from companies he talked about here would also be sinful? Realistically, because of the nature of the global supply chain and other countries that don't have laws around workers rights, it would be virtually impossible not to sin if this were the case. You might even say watching this KZbin video without an ad blocker could be sinful since Google's server components were probably at least somewhat built by child/slave labor. Please someone tell me if I'm out of line. I currently am just of the opinion that while it might be more virtuous not to buy/invest in a company (that doesn't provide "evil as a service"), it isn't sinful. Again, feel free to share your thoughts as I'm willing to change that.

[@michaelrepman5161]

I have more of a "make sacrifices when buying goods by boycotting companies that contribute to abortion either directly like Avon or via 3rd party like many corporations, or ideologically like Samsung ( they produced a virtual abortion tour/experience which was harsh to prolifers and greatly glorified planned parenthood. It even glorified the visceral abortion procedure). Supporting companies that are either neutral or give to good charities might be more financially burdensome, but I believe it is a white martyrdom that we can suffer for the sake of the unborn and our own sanctification. I think that the only area where I believe you are truly out of line is making profits from the appreciation of Planned Parenthood stocks.

[@ForTheReallys]

@@michaelrepman5161 I'm actually not entirely sure where I stand on the "profits from appreciation" stance. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable buying those stocks, but the question I have is: is it actually wrong? If so, why?

[@theoldpaths6897]

My thoughts: Investments are likened to technology. It gives one more power. All things remaining equal, investments and technology are morally neutral. It depends on what you invest in and what you do with the investment that determines the moral quality of investing. That being said, because technology gives power to people wounded by sin, that power, in the aggregate, tends to be put to destructive use. Furthermore, the technological empowerment of masses of people begins to negatively transform the cultural environment, making it harder to pursue the good.

[@tylers.2596]

Interesting what he is describing is how it is in the Philippines. Responsibility of children taking care of parents in old age.

[@KevinClarkes]

I was asked my theological perspective on this by a close friend. So I share the following. Let me first say that I respect the intention and dissatisfaction Jacob feels with respect to corporate America. I admire his youthful zeal. Absolutely, there should be corporate reform and investment reform. However, Jacob presents a more radical approach that is not consonant with Catholic moral theology. My response is lengthy because this is a complicated topic.

[@KevinClarkes]

INVESTMENT AND FINANCE OPINION: On this matter, I am more of an amateur, and so I do not offer any sort of "expert" opinion in this paragaph. Skip if you like. Jacob offers unwise financial advice because of the 401K withdrawal penalty and taxation levels. In other words, some viewers might injure their financial standing by cashing out before age 59 1/2. So unless Jacob has a retirement rollover product to transfer that money into penalty-free, this presentation is misleading and incomplete as financial advice.

[@KevinClarkes]

PHILOSOPHICAL/CULTURAL OPINION: The idea that we should not save for retirement but expect our children to care for us is idealistic and romanticized. One, however, cannot turn a large ship on a dime. We are still a postwar generation. My relatives are not only all over America, but all over the world. This is the case for many and the curse of mobility caused by the world wars of last century and the revolutions of the previous two centuries. To expect a family to care for its elders, one needs the extended family, also known as a clan or tribe in other cultures. Show me the family crest in your home and in the homes of your relatives within walking distance and then we can talk about such expectations. I wager that the presenter himself could not do so. It would, therefore, be irresponsible not to prepare for retirement. The average American household is several tens of thousands in debt, which is the same thing as saying their debt is owned by usurers. Education is exorbitantly expensive, as is business ownership, though the trades are slowly starting to return to societies, thank God. The family has been utterly decentralized. The point is that we can't live as though we occupy a society that is real only in the memory of the deceased generations, but we must grow and rehabilitate our cultures organically and patiently.

[@KevinClarkes]

MORAL THEOLOGY EVALUATION: Regarding Catholic moral theology, the Church has long been clear about legitimate cooperation in evil. Jacob imposes a stricter standard than does the Catholic Church. Let's take the example of a company that supports slave labor or child labor, which I agree that no one should deliberately invest in; we'll call this hypothetical company Doulos (Greek for servant/slave). Doulos's directors and administrators who have willfully employed slave or child labor are guilty of immediate material cooperation in evil. They are guilty on the same level as those who enslave and impose the labor. Now, investing in Doulos on any level is mediate rather than immediate cooperation in evil. Mediate cooperation in evil may be culpable (guilt-bearing) or it may not; so that means that we have to consider some factors. If I were to happily welcome Doulos's child slave labor, then I would be gravely morally guilty. But if I do not intend this as an end, my guilt would not be grave. But I may still have guilt; so we would have to evaluate further. Does my level of investment create the conditions that enable the nefarious Doulos executives to expand their operations? If the answer were "yes," that would be a "proximate" level of cooperation in evil. I would wager, however, that the answer for ANYONE READING THIS COMMENT is "no," which would be "remote" cooperation in evil. The answer is that you are NOT cooperating in evil in a culpable manner. I am open to hearing arguments that the minuscule fractions of a company that you own in a 401K is not "remote" cooperation, but I doubt they will be compelling. Hence, it is still OK for you to keep your 401K (plus, by cashing out early, you pay a penalty, which, of course, benefits them). Would it be better to find another means of retirement investment? It does seem so. If you have investment in a company, use your status as shareholder to let the executives know how displeased you are with this or that thing they do which is in conflict with your faith. The thing about remote cooperation in evil is that you don't HAVE to cooperate in evil. This is the path that Jacob has taken by not investing in Doulos through his 401K. He has rejected remote cooperation. Good for him. He is also free to urge others not to cooperate on a remote level. That is also fair. But it is wrong to lead others to believe that they bear some guilt by simply owning a 401K. Someone here should have represented the Church moral tradition and brought some balance to the conversation.

[@KevinClarkes]

[And, no, Matt, "values" is not an effeminate word. That's silly. Maybe it's one of those overly corporatized buzzwords that has been despoiled of its true meaning. But it simply means "worth."]

[@Seethi_C]

I wonder what Jacob would think about Peter Singer's argument that we must give away any excess wealth (beyond necessity) and give it to those who do not have the basic necessities. My guess is that he doesn't believe that since he drinks beer and smokes cigars, but it seems like the same ballpark of moral arguments.

[@ryanburgess3762]

I don't believe he has thought this out enough.

[@lemonprime7889]

I'm okay with looking after my mother. My issue is: Will my children look after me? What's the success rate of Catholic parents raising children who, as adults, stay Catholic? Whatever the rate is, isn't it falling? Can I really expect that my children, with their God-given Free Will, will choose to look after me?

[@wilhufftarkin8543]

Make sure that you don't let the public school system and the media raise your children.

[@barbaraschultz2499]

For older folks the majority of 401ks are bonds related to foreign investment. What happens to that if someone strikes an embargo.

[@josiah14]

I like this. I think its difficult to implement, but we shouldn't shy away from reality. Maybe we wont be able to implement this perfectly, but its a good thing to think about what we invest in and what those companies do.

[@MikeXCSkier]

But you're okay with giving money to a church with a history of covering up child sex abuse?

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

Although there might be some valid underlying concerns here, I do not like the way Ibram makes it sound like we are sinning by having a 401K, By analogy, as Catholics we are bound to be good stewards of the Earth and it might be noble and healthy to purchase organic foods where possible, but we cannot say that binds under pain of sin! Many people cannot afford organic, cannot get it where they live, etc. Similarly, it might be nice if someone came up with a mutual fund that adheres to Catholic teaching, but we still have to do the best we can in the mean time to safeguard our pensions. At some point, cooperation with evil becomes remote. Additionally, when I had started the above, I had not gotten to the part where he said we should not save for retirement. Yes, adult children should honor and take care of their aged parents, but even in the middle ages, people who had some surplus would save for their old age. Having no retirement pension could put an impossible burden on those children; and what if the children die in a car crash? Or reject your values? Or.. something else? If you don't want to use 401Ks for the reasons he mentions, choose individual stocks, or invest in real estate.

[@Seethi_C]

Should we also not buy life insurance, since the premiums get invested by the insurance company in nefarious ways?

[@mistertiger5849]

Thank you. None of this ever crossed my mind before. I have more thinking to do.

[@BeauBeckwith]

Frankly, this is absurd. Please please get Trent Horn And Jacob to argue this out.

[@Ellecram]

They have lost their minds. And look at how many people agree with it! It's insane.

[@katherinemcmillan5228]

what if you're an old maid and have no children?

[@imakecats6983]

We need to form loving Chritian communities. The modern world has destroyed community.

[@Canisius19]

This is same person who will condemn poverty and the pursuit of wealth at the same time

[@Kevin-lw2gl]

I can see what he means, but at the same time I find it conflicting. Because let's say I don't want to invest money in the big corporations, but I still give them business by buying their products or using their services. What's the difference between me buying things at Walmart and investing in Walmart despite some of the company's efforts to introduce CRT standards and build an inclusive environment for the LGBT community? Walmart also sells products that if we trace things back to the producers we can find things such as child labor, pollution of the environment, corruption, etc. So where do we draw the line? I will agree that we should be mindful who we invest with, but at the same time it's going to be extremely hard to find a set of companies that meet our entire ethical and religious standards.

[@deborahrozenzhak3696]

This is helpful to point out. Is there a producible list of companies that don’t give money to life issues for Catholics?

[@jameswilson8946]

You have to have something to replace it with in order to totally dispense with it.

[@imakecats6983]

Loving Christian communies could be a solution. Individualism is awful, makes us trust in money systems, since the modern world destroyed community.

[@jimenamartinez435]

Ummm really bad advice to not save for retirement. The future is uncertain so saving up makes sense. Today money is essential. Your children might not be financially stable all the time or at the time you need them to or simply might not have the funds to sustain everything they and their family needs. Life can be expensive and isn't US healthcare super expensive?

[@smashandburn1]

. . . . . . No distinction between material and formal cooperation here? Or the principle of double effect? I've also read the USCCB guidelines and . . . They definitely don't say what Jacob is saying here. Go read them yourself. I also wonder, isn't the answer to investment strategies that are "immoral" (I don't think they're necessarily immoral, but they could certainly be better) to provide better options rather than telling people it's wrong to plan for the future? If something like that were offered, I would certainly be interested.

[@patartimotiustambunan1946]

As i think more, it seems many tradisionalist never talk about money, ursury, Investment and greed culture and sins of them. They affraid accused as comunist and socialist.

[@patartimotiustambunan1946]

Respect to new polity

[@adventureinallthings]

Obviously the part about making sure the money invested is in line with Catholic ethics is good , but this also displayed an dismal level of understanding of economic growth that I won't go into. The introduction of the original old age state pension in Victorian times it provided both dignity and further economic growth in itself, money is not a zero sum game. Pull it out of an economy fast with cuts and an economy will tank. But lastly , one cannot assume your children will be (A) ALIVE , when one reaches old age or (B) Well themselves, they may sick or infirm themselves (C) Willing ( there is an automatic assumption you WILL raise decent kids that won't fall into sin themselves and that you will completely control such an outcome yourself as if they will not have to fight for their own soul at the end of the day (D) in a good enough financial position themselves to be able to help (E) Be nearby to you in old age , perhaps they will marry someone that lives far away and has there own parent to care for. No harm in discussing such things but I think it's not very thought out even if the intention was good🤔

[@radicalsquirrel4381]

Or (F) the children may be called to religious vocations. The idea of "my children are my retirement plan" presumes that God's plan matches our own

[@imakecats6983]

We should form loving Christan communites to where we can put our trust in relationships and not broken and usury based systems.

[@garrettknowles4007]

What if all or most of your kids enter religious life? Like St. Therese’s sainted parents. I think families should be prepared for that.

[@TheWiscoBass]

So if you own an apartment building, are you responsible for what your tenants do with their souls? Do you not keep the rent? Although screening obvious criminals out, in the end we do what is prudent and not perfect.

[@Liberty2357]

The big problem is fiat currency. Back in the day when you had gold and silver as money you could just save it for a rainy day which is prudent. Today you can’t do the same with cash. If you do it will be stolen through inflation. You can try to do this by owning silver and gold but any amount you save from inflation will be taxed as a gain. In the end it’s prudent to save for a time of need but don’t make it the focus of your life.

[@Vinsrose23angels]

I totally and completely agree with Jacob Iman, it's always been in my heart and you have spell it out loud. No expectations either way. Amen, Amen, Amen.

[@maryherblet1133]

Retirement planning is a mystery because our future is a mystery. When you are 20, you don't know if you will have children, you don't know if your children will outlive you, you don't know what your health will be or what your children's health will be when you retire. When there were company pensions you knew where your retirement was coming from, you knew your employer and what they stood for, and how they did business. Unfortunately, if they didn't do well you lost out. Today, modern investment funds are so diverse you can't keep track of who they invest in and how ethical these companies are. Instead of putting all our eggs in one basket we're putting them in hundreds of baskets and we cannot possibly monitor all of them. Somehow, we need to find a happy medium.

[@MikeXCSkier]

There are Catholic mutual funds.

[@josephbellissimo2292]

The PBS Special, “The Italian Americans” made this point about Rosetto, PA. At a time when heart disease was going up exponentially everywhere, it was really low in this community of Sicilian immigrants who smoked and worked in the coal mines and steel mills. The only attributing factor they could identify was the tight extended family social structure where you didn’t need a 401(k) because your many kids would take care of you and if you lost your job, your family would move in with your brother’s. When our culture broke down this structure, heart disease went up to the same as everywhere else!

[@justinjustinjustin10]

Proud of my Sicilian heritage but disagree about not having retirement

[@CatholicBossHogg]

People are all down for Christianity until it means giving up your mammon

[@imakecats6983]

Best comment of the day! Money takes over when love fails!

[@teresahannasch3420]

I really don't think you can count on your children to care for you. Even having finances in order to help them take care of you is a good thing. What if your care needs exceed their abilities like failing health, surgeries, cancer, or dementia? You would need professional care. That costs a great deal of money. What if your children have disabilities that mean they cannot care for you? What if you can't have children? What if you don't have children yet and don't know which way it will go? God will care for you, but what if he's doing that through your ability to save for retirement?

[@katkat2340]

Interesting . A society who can not even spend time with their own children will take care of their elderly. Not in America. The seniors here are very proud too and stilll want to live on their own terms. The future will be in community living for seniors but it will be mixed with other ppl. Watch n see.

[@thomaskidd8027]

I'd love to have him and Seamus Coughlin on to talk over their financial views, that would be great