Is It Just High Zinc (ZDDP), Or Is There More To It?

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Keep these coming Lake. There's not enough of this good information out here.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@not12listen]

Thank you for this! I've never seen this critical detail explain so succinctly. I run break in oil on every rebuilt/new engine that I've had, and the results have been stellar. There are always people that say 'just follow what the manufacturer recommends' missing the detail that the oil they typically put in has friction modifiers and lots of detergent, which neither are great for breaking an engine in.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@RA31A]

Glad I discovered this channel.. great stuff! We are living in a time where flat tappet cam failures are way too prevalent for a number of reasons. In the past 2 years, I've successfully broken in Four flat tappet camshafts with BR40 responsible for the break-in duties. I of course checked cam lobes for taper and lifters for crown first. I recommend this oil and my checks to anybody. Who has time for preventable failures?!

[@corywalker4078]

I liked this video because the spreadsheet rows were highlighted and I knew where to look and what I was looking at.

[@85net]

My tuner recommend that I started using VR1 20W50 in my 416 LT1 motor, after watching some of your videos it looks like he really know what he’s talking about.

[@sm7091bs]

Compliment’s for the way you give the information in a understanding form. Bright en clear to understand.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@LanceisLawson]

I have rebuilt many engines and not once did I ever use a dedicated break in oil. I filled my engines with the same oil that would be running in them. Never had an issue with a rebuilt engine run from the start with normal oil.

[@yellowjoe.2000]

awesome information. a regular non synthetic oil will do just fine? do you also agree to rev the engine to max rpm redline during break in period? thank you

[@ScoobsterGL]

Wow you get a cookie

[@averyalexander2303]

Great content as always, thanks for taking the time to make these videos! I've always broken in the engines I built on cheap conventional oil then switched to synthetic after a few thousand miles and never had any problems. It seems like unless an engine has a flat tappet cam, the exact procedure used for break in isn't all that critical.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Actually, the break-in procedure is quite important. I have another video on that… kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5mkkKGMh82Mm9k

[@freedomfighter5095]

Used BR 5w30 on a GM reman LY5 5.3. Ran for just shy of 40 miles. Very impressed with the way this one turned out. It may be I am just biased but I think this one runs stronger than any other I have r installed. Btw the truck was a beautiful 08’ extended cab with 138K on the clock and absolutely no rust. Amazing for an Indiana truck. Original engine broke a #2 exhaust spring. The guy was very good at maintaining it prior but 7/8 pushrods on bank 2 showed significant wear. Cam looked ok.

[@theshed8802]

Great stuff Lake. Always enjoy your videos across multiple channels that I follow. Regards Greg from Perth in Western Australia

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@peopleschampgarage7869]

Lake, just found your channel, love it 🙂

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@FordBossMe]

I really wish a lot of these companies would start using more magnesium than so much calcium and that way they could cut down on some of the low speed pre ignition and still have a decent detergent and dispersent. Some of the oils that I test have super super high amounts of calcium and if you look at the data it says if you have too much calcium this could be a factor why there's more low speed pre ignition and magnesium is a little bit more friendly in that area

[@themotoroilgeek]

That's why it is so important to look at the additive package as a whole.

[@harryharry3193]

@@themotoroilgeek so why dont OILS have it printed on their labels ? instead we have to figure it out? its BS really......should be a visible component......especially when we are dealing with our 15000---25000 race engines. the factory tells you all these codes---to look for on oil containers. thanks for what You do here Lake.....I know there is business involved.

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@harryharry3193 It would be great if it was easier to understand from just looking at the label!

[@tomasnokechtesledger1786]

Another great input for oil talks, Lake. Detergent content similar to ATF levels.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@Balticblue93]

The engine builders of the 60's and 70's said to drive it like you stole it or drive it as you planned to use it, if it was a tractor or a piece of machinery. Most of those tractors and large engines are still running today.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Absolutely. That is the right way to break-in a new engine. Don’t baby it.

[@chad6504]

@@themotoroilgeekso you agree with Motoman! 👍

[@DAT240Z72]

Calcium is inconsequential to ZDDP bonding. Magnesium is detrimental to proper ZDDP bonding. AND! YES you absolutely want friction modifiers in your break-in oil. Especially MoS2.

[@dalehilborn691]

Could you make a video about the properties of gear oil, And what to look for when shopping around?? And why some rear-end manufacturers want/advise the use of conventional gear oil over synthetic

[@themotoroilgeek]

Sure thing! We can cover gear oils in some videos. Thanks for the request. In regards to why some manufacturers prefer conventional to synthetic, that is because conventional oils have a higher pressure viscosity coefficient, which creates a thicker oil film under extreme pressure. This is why conventional oils do well in hypoid gear sets.

[@mikemc330]

Another good video. Thanks

[@themotoroilgeek]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@scatteredrustyprojects]

Hi Lake, 15+ years ago the talk was going around about modern oils not having sufficient zinc for a flat tappet engine. At that time, using Chevron's Delo 400 seemed to be the way to go. What I have found during an oil change, the oil becomes thick and sludgy. ---this was in engines running either a 180 or 195 thermostat. The engine would also occasionally have a lifter not pump up resulting in ticking. I have decided to stop using the diesel engine oils in favor of running 10w30 break-in oil for the added zinc. On the same oil change interval, the old oil has looked much better and the engine has actually run smoother without lifters bleeding down. Watching your videos I am learning about oil and now, I wonder if there would be any detriment to continually running an old flat tappet engine on break-in oil? What does the break-in oil lack for engine longevity? Perhaps a video on the do's and don'ts of using either diesel engine oil and break-in over the long term would make a good topic.. thanks for sharing your info!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the suggestion! There are drawbacks to running a break-in oil all the time.

[@goratgo1970]

Think as he said early on is lack of detergents which aren't needed early on, but as with you, I have old flat tappet engines that are best run with higher zinc, but also include other ingredients like detergents with normal use. Then go with a high mileage oil later in it's life.

[@jeffrichson7246]

Thank you very much! Very informative! BR from day 1 for me!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on!

[@deancrawford2577]

Hi Lake, I appreciate your videos, thank you for all the detailed information you provide. Being an Automotive machinist of 30 years, I still learn something new now and again. I sent oil away for analysis, as the client sent his turbo diesel engine for rebuilding at another company. The engine lasted all of 400km and then seized, when I saw the location of the seize marks on the pistons, it indicated an overfuelling condition. The flash point occurred very low at 170' C when it should of been around 228' C, if I interpret the graph on 15W40 mineral oil, that would indicate a fuel dilution of more than 4% or am I wrong?

[@merica.racing]

Hey Lake, love the videos. Do you have an analysis on Drivin XP3, im currently running that in my race motor and going to be sending out a sample to you soon to compare.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the question. We don't have a video on Driven XP3, but we are very familiar with that product and what it looks like.

[@markwallace5274]

I remember in the 90’s and shade tree mechanic days of breaking in the new hot rod engines with straight 30 weight Non Detergent with a ZDDP additive yikes 😬 if we only knew back then what we know now 🤦‍♂️

[@jamesyarbrough4777]

but did it work?

[@laytonturpin864]

Very informative. Thanks a million! 2:55

[@themotoroilgeek]

Glad it was helpful!

[@laytonturpin864]

@@themotoroilgeek it definitely was! I’ve really never given the subject much thought until now...

[@kurrentracing]

Hopefully you see this before i start back on my engine i have an iron block ls. Ofc with roller lifters. I was told to pour zinc before start up. I watch you last video🤦🏿 so if it'll be bad, what i need to use to break the motor in?

[@dadgarage7966]

Many think all new vehicles come factory filled with break-in oil without concrete proof. If anything, it's just engine oil mixed with assembly lube.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Correct, factory fill oil is neither break-in oil nor regular oil. It is it’s own special breed.

[@SiCaRiI_DaGgEr]

Just found your channel and happy I did. Hopefully you have a chance to see my? I'm putting a new motor in my Subaru which the goto oil is Motul. What are your thoughts on Motul's break-in comparison to your knowledge and research compared their is a better break-in oil than Motul?

[@Chaplain161]

Hello Lake. I have a question about the Driven BR 15W-50 oil. Is this oil safe to use in a Harley Davidson Twin Cam 103? I will be rebuilding the top end and going to a 107 cid. The main reason I was looking at this oil is to chemically seal the rings. I have roller lifters and the main bearings on a Harley Davidson Twin Cam are roller bearings, not your typical babbitt style. Harley Davidson states that if you are in a pinch and need to add oil to your bike and the oil they recommend is not available, you can use a diesel "C" rated oil of the same viscosity to get you by, but to change the oil as soon as you can. I use 20W-50 in my bike. The BR 15W50 does not have an API Service Doughnut on it, so I don't know if it has the "C" rating. The engine will be broken in on a dyno and I planned on changing the oil after 50 miles, or should I keep the oil in there till 400 miles, there is no catalytic converter to worry about? Also, on a Harley Davidson Twin Cam and other HD engine models, the engine oil is separate from the primary (chain) drive and the transmission oil, so there will be no shearing in the gears.

[@andrewforster4974]

I have a 1968 ford 302 that is used for daily driver with running in temps in the winter of-40f to +80f in summer what should I look for?

[@sidneysanders5726]

Lake, would you want a little bit of dispersant additives to keep all the contaminants suspended untill you drain the oil? Even if its break in oil and its not going to be in as long as a regular oil?

[@jonathanworley3469]

I need to break in a factory remand 350. What oil and filter should i use to break it in. Im new to this.

[@chasegilreath5536]

Have a question for you! I have a 2023 sierra with the 6.2 changed my oil at 800 mile for the first time a put a wix filter with 0w20 mobil 1 in it. Even after another two short oil change intervals I still had metal in my oil filter, which led to the truck being at the dealer for rod knock. I'm getting a new engine now. When I get the truck back is there anything I can do to prolong the new engine ? Can these new v8s handle a thicker oil than the specified 0w20?

[@nateb8245]

What makes the friction modifiers a negative during break-in?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Great question. Friction modifiers interfere with the ZDDP film formation, so that negatively impacts the break-in mating of the parts, especially the piston rings.

[@3029dz]

Is critical that the parts rotate and wear into the mating parts without scuffing and galling. Friction modifiers could interfere with rotation and cause localized failure, AKA galling and scuffing.

[@bcbloc02]

@@themotoroilgeek So is the reason John Deere gets away with friction modifiers in their break in oil because they always have those hard chrome rings on the diesels?

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@bcbloc02 it is actually because of the way they hone their blocks. The bores and the rings are basically broken in when the engine is assembled. That’s a level of precision hard to replicate outside of their environment.

[@bcbloc02]

@@themotoroilgeek They are all wet sleeve engines. When we do rebuilds we just drop in new pistons and liners and Deere tells us to use the break in oil the first 100 hours and to do a dyno increasing load breakin for at least 2 hours. There is no signs on the rings that they have ever been run in the piston liner packs or that they have been lapped in.

[@leebo92_38]

What oil would you suggest for 6.4 powerstroke

[@soufianDEMOS]

What break in oil for HEMI 5.7 RT 2007 ? Any reseller in EU ? Thanks

[@kdomster9141]

What over the counter , Walmart sourced oil would you recommend to be used in a new car after 500miles factory oil dump ? And how long would you run it for ?

[@anthonydesouza3602]

*bump

[@kdomster9141]

@@anthonydesouza3602I used Pennzoil Ultra 5W30 , it has low amounts of Molly and anti friction pack so it should serve well into new car . I dumped my factory fill at 600 miles ... used Fram Ultra filter . It is important to use Ultra not just Platinum as Plat uses more additives and anti wear agents, Ultra is much better base so no need for so much additive pack.

[@bryanturner683]

@@anthonydesouza3602 Quaker state 5w 30. . search "Rat 540" blog. He developed a proprietary oil testing method that tests oil to failure based on pressure . He has a ton of additional info on oils and a comprehensive list of well over 200 oils. The break in oils generally dont do well in his tests and he's convinced the datas shows Zinc is not needed. Read his stuff and compare to this video and then decide.

[@bryanturner683]

Quaker state 5w 30. . search "Rat 540" blog. He developed a proprietary oil testing method that tests oil to failure based on pressure . He has a ton of additional info on oils and a comprehensive list of well over 200 oils. The break in oils generally dont do well in his tests and he's convinced the datas shows Zinc is not needed. Read his stuff and compare to this video and then decide.

[@shahrukhbakar3248]

For some time, the Honda owner's manuals have stated to NOT change out the factory filled oil in newer cars, and state that this is for break in. Any insight into what Honda fills from the factory? How long should one leave such a break-in oil in the engine before changing it out vs any other oil change?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Great question. Factory fill oil is different from regular "service" fill oil. In fact, GM has a Factory fill spec and a Service fill spec. I'm not aware of what Honda specs for factory fill, but it sounds like they are doing something similar to GM.

[@shahrukhbakar3248]

I would like to change out the oil to remove manufacturing debris though. Compromised and changed out the factory fill oil at 3000 km.

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@shahrukhbakar3248 smart move!

[@justacinnamonbun8658]

I've noticed that people that buy new cars and run the factory fill too far, for example, the manual states an oil change interval of 7,500 miles, now on the new cars I've purchased recently, and of course you can't go by just the look of the oil, however, I've noticed after around 2,000 to 3,000 miles that factory fill oil, you can't see any light through it anymore. I've heard stories of people having oil burning issues after doing the 5,000 or 7,500 miles recommend oil change (I believe VW is 10,000 miles for some of their cars like the 1.8T). I'm not usually conspiracy theorist but I have to say that this looks pretty lucrative for a company that wants to sell more engines and more cars. Am I being paranoid or what??

[@themotoroilgeek]

I agree that the initial oil drain should be much shorter than subsequent oil changes. Some people want the “convenience” of the longer drain interval and are not worried about the long term impact, so that’s what makes for all the confusion information. There’s a difference between what is convenient and what will produce longevity.

[@tombrown879]

I have a huge question here. On flat tappet cams. is it ok to run a " regular" type motor oil like the Penzoil platinum AFTER the break in period of the cam. I have been told that you always need to add zinc or use a high zinc oil with these cams. But i currently have 3 flat tappet engines and 1 overhead cam engine [ 1968 350v8 Buick, 1968 Buick 430v8, 1985 Toyota Landcruiser 2F I6, and 1979 Toyota 20/22r I4 . that all have over 200K Mi. one with over 300KMi. 2 of which are original and i did not break in. 2 that i rebuilt and broke in myself. I have always tried to run synthetic for the lives of these engines. normally 5w30 Mobil 1. or 10w30 Mobil 1. or the new Penzoil Platinum. But also used the old Castrol GTX for a couple of years in there. But i never ran any extra zinc. or specifically used high zinc race type oils. All of these engines were daily drivers that saw limited autocross and drag racing over the years. Mabe 6 times each for each of these engines. So is this just a myth?? or can we just run regular oils after break in??? Loving the channel and all of the great info you are providing. Tom in ND.

[@tombrown879]

Sorry. Pennzoil Ultra platinum.

[@russandrew9583]

How long should you leave the break in oil in the engine?

[@themotoroilgeek]

300 to 500 miles is the max.

[@EJProMods]

how does the piston skirt anti-friction coatings affect the break-in? For example does molybdenum coauting cause honing valeys to clogged up?

[@themotoroilgeek]

No effect whatsoever from what we’ve seen.

[@ralphs88]

Lake do you have any recommendations for break in oil for a roller cam engine?

[@themotoroilgeek]

The same as for a flat tappet cam. The Driven GP-1 break-in oil and the new HPL break-in oils are excellent.

[@petesmith3923]

Can I assume that the BR30 5W-30 oil would have the same beneficial additive package?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Yes, it does.

[@marianajimenez3732]

Do you have any info on the chemistry behind this?? I am a chemist and im curious! :)

[@themotoroilgeek]

I actually formulated that oil, but my NDA prevents me from sharing the details.

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

That begs the question if you are building a fresh motor should you be using a cam lube with molybdenum in it ?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Great question! It is ok as long as the Moly lube on the cam is used sparingly.

[@GNX157]

I would like to use the driven BR oil in a predator generator to break it in, that calls for 10w30, but I don’t see a BR 10w30 weight in the web site? What weight would be most appropriate to use if that’s the case?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Use the BR30

[@Pro1er]

I wonder if it wouldn't be beneficial to substitute one quart of regular oil with one quart of break-in oil for high-mile cars? The added zinc seems like it would be good for it. Am I wrong?

[@themotoroilgeek]

I'd rather use an oil with a higher ZDDP level than add a different oil or additive.

[@Mason1le]

For built motor applications (cam and valve train), is it advantageous to add zinc additives like Lucas TB zinc to oil changes?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the question. The simple answer is No. Don't use additives. Instead, use an oil that already has the correct amount of Zinc for flat tappet or "built" engines.

[@harleylif1929]

Hi Lake. Need a little help. What would your thoughts be on a break in oil for a 2 cycle race engine?

[@themotoroilgeek]

There is a product called Dumonde Tech for 2 cycles. I've never used it, but I've heard about it.

[@marcotomat149]

Does it make sense to add ZDDP to the first factory-filled oil in a new car, and then drain it after 500 miles or so?

[@themotoroilgeek]

No, don't add anything to the factory fill oil. Just follow the shorter initial drain interval: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmWXY2eHatF_iJo

[@chief1193]

Is 0w20 ok for my land cruiser? I know the manual says to use it. But so many people say that the same land cruiser in other parts in the world use 5w30, why is that? Is the 0w20 really all about emissions?

[@themotoroilgeek]

The lower viscosity in the US is for café fuel economy requirements. The 5W 30 is a great choice for your engine.

[@armandosinger]

Interesting. I just bought a new Honda Ridgeline and researched what they use for factory fill break in oil. It looks like they don’t do any of this! Apparently, their break in oil is identical to their service fill oil, except they add moly! So the friction modifier no-no, plus no more zddp than their regular oil. In factory fill oil analysis I’ve seen people post, the moly is in the ~650ppm range. I wonder why Honda does this. For a normal passenger car/truck, is it worth it to drain the factory fill oil early and run a true break in oil for a few hundred miles, before moving on to maintenance oil? Thanks!

[@themotoroilgeek]

If the cylinder bore finish and piston ring coating are engineered to work with a high Moly oil, it will work. However, that is not what most manufacturers do. Both Honda and John Deere go that route, but they are the exceptions. It is harder to go that way from a manufacturing perspective, but it does work very well when executed properly.

[@armandosinger]

@@themotoroilgeek I see. That’s great. Sounds like I can skip draining the factory fill for dedicated break in oil, and go straight to my service oil for my first oil change. Thanks for the insight!

[@AbdelhakimTALBI-t6q]

🎉

[@rickstclair2217]

do manufacturers put break in oil in their new cars and if not, why not? if not what do they put in their new cars and when should we change that oil?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Here's the answer: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmWXY2eHatF_iJo

[@rickstclair2217]

@themotoroilgeek thank you so much Lake, now understand and know I still need to change my oil on a new vehicle around 500 miles no matter what kind of oil is in it. hope you dad is doing well.

[@rickss69]

Nope...because it is not needed. They use the same oil you will.

[@SirDadbod]

Does this apply to electric plug in air compressor engines that use oil?

[@themotoroilgeek]

It does help with them as well. Piston rings need to break-in.

[@stevenroche9874]

Speaking of engine break-in, do you believe in the drive it hard fast method or the slow gentle traditional method ?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Don’t baby engines during break-in

[@stevenroche9874]

@@themotoroilgeek Did you personally drive your daughter's Corolla to break-in the engine ?

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@stevenroche9874 No, she's got a lead foot, LOL

[@stevenroche9874]

@@themotoroilgeek And a NASCAR driver grandfather !

[@poobank]

We know this is a mineral-based oil by the oxidation value of 3.7 but the Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic gas derived oil has a similar oxidation value I'm confused

[@themotoroilgeek]

The low oxidation value of the Pennzoil Platinum shows there are no co-base stocks like an Ester, which would increase the oxidation value. The Pennzoil GTL base oil is different than other synthetics, so I can see how that is confusing.

[@alouisschafer7212]

Interesting so it's all ZDDP this oil... I guess they want to build a strong ZDDP tribofilm quickly and thats the purpose of this oil.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Absolutely. That is the intent and what happens.

[@johnnysalisburry299]

320 Rolfson Squares

[@gemeinschaftsgeful]

Test Redline oil. Is it really a great oil?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@FrederickZona]

421 Pagac Hill

[@essentiallites]

Got a question. So I just refreshed a honda engine. Head was resurfaced had new valves and new valve seals put in. Cylinders were deglazed and I put new rings on the pistons. So do I just warm up the engine for a few minutes then drive it? Accelerate and engine brake as much as I can?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Anytime you put in new rings, follow the procedure listed in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5mkkKGMh82Mm9k

[@essentiallites]

@@themotoroilgeek awesome. I did watch that. So no need to do a cam break in correct. Just drive it. Accelerate then left off thr gas correct for about 30mins or so?

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@essentiallites yep, warm up the engine and drive it as in the video.

[@essentiallites]

@@themotoroilgeek thanks. Already subscribed and gonna continue watching and learning

[@itzed]

Do manufacturers really use break-in oil these days? I was under the impression they were just filling with their recommended oil.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Not anymore. In fact, we have a video about that coming soon.

[@rickss69]

Never have and never will.

[@tkorte101]

What about if the engine has a turbo?

[@themotoroilgeek]

Break-In oil still helps

[@tkorte101]

@@themotoroilgeek Thanks for the reply. I was wondering if break in oil would be detrimental to a turbo even if it was beneficial for the rest of the engine. Turbos have such fine tolerances and run at such high speeds and temperatures that I thought it'd be worth asking.

[@225supersix1977]

why not friction modifiers ?

[@themotoroilgeek]

It changes how the ZDDP works and inhibits proper break-in.

[@HoodMontague]

4197 Gutkowski Roads

[@RomeoJulian-z9d]

123 Quitzon Throughway

[@JacksonEdward-h5i]

Jones Larry Robinson Anna Gonzalez Steven

[@SHODUUP]

I’ve got a 22 GT500 with 1500 miles. The car is a garage queen and has had one oil change in its life at around 1100 miles using motorcraft 5w/50. Would you recommend dumping said motorcraft in favour of this break in oil OR do I just add some break in oil additive from redline syn which has high zinc and phosphor ? Thanks!

[@dimakim-n6c]

Gonzalez Kenneth Johnson Jessica Lewis Anthony

[@RohimBadsha-i7u]

Allen Barbara Jackson Shirley Lopez Karen

[@deweyford7869]

Can you use break in Oil all the ti😅me

[@themotoroilgeek]

No, that is not a good idea!

[@secondarycontainment4727]

Ok, but why?

[@tomtheplummer7322]

Um BS oil

[@rickss69]

Break-in oils are the worst performing oils ever produced. They are substandard in every area including the ZDDP additive. When are folks ever going to learn (or care to) about oil.

[@sidneysanders5726]

So, you are disagreeing with a certified tribologist that actually formulated the oil for Driven Racing oils?

[@pawpawbandit3871]

Dude, you know I had to click through like 50 videos to look to see if you actually give basic recommendations for a break in oil for a common car, like 2.0 four cylinde!? Seriously annoying. Start the video by recommending break in oils, then do your Homer Hickam impression for someone who cares. Did you ever consider people want a straightforward recommendation for their engine type? And that's why we're searching?!

[@trolllibtards2604]

👍🏻

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@YoungMerle-f6v]

Thompson George Thompson Steven Thompson George