Is it time for Christianity to go underground? | Holy Smoke

Unveiling a new package of Covid restrictions last week, Boris Johnson announced that weddings will be limited to 15 people and funerals to 30. Damian Thompson speaks to Gavin Ashenden about his bafflement at bishops' willingness to accept curtailments on church life, and wonders whether some Christians will 'go underground' - worshipping in ways that disobeys their leaders.
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[@maryd4726]

Dean of Bath and Wells has been kneeling to BLM and inviting their speakers

[@jennyoshea1958]

Read 'Eminent Victorians' by Lytton Strachey. It may open your eyes to the good men of the Church in the guise of Cardinal Manning. Strachey demytholises Henry Edward Manning along with others, including our revered Florence Nightingale.

[@tambam7340]

And Welby allowed freemasons to use cathedral for their satanic worship 😉

[@afifahhamilton8843]

EXCELENT CONVERSATION! Let's get to it folks - let's find our own pastors, priests and vicars of Christ, instead of relying on those who are currently sitting pretty. Underground we go!!!

[@ginigang]

Amen.

[@anthonyrybicki1000]

You can create your own church or cult publicly in this country unlike in China or Russia but it would not meet the need for social respectability which is the basis for most worshippers going on a Sunday to their local church or chapel!

[@winstonasmith9398]

C of E : More Marx & Muhammad than Jesus.

[@ladyrotha5420]

Just discovered this; what a treat! And what a gift Dr Ashenden is to Christendom.

[@jennyoshea1958]

Read 'Eminent Victorians' by Lytton Strachey. It may open your eyes to the good men of the Church in the guise of Cardinal Manning. Strachey demytholises Henry Edward Manning along with others, including our revered Florence Nightingale.

[@gtaylor178]

The tape on the pews resembles " a crime scene". Indeed the crimes of the bishops and priests actively succumbing to the nonsense we have been fed by Nichola and Boris despite the basic common sense challenging it all.

[@fox39forever]

I'm doing a secret Mass in my house, as I have a friend who is a priest, so, yes, it already is going underground.

[@jennyoshea1958]

Read 'Eminent Victorians' by Lytton Strachey. It may open your eyes to the good men of the Church in the guise of Cardinal Manning. Strachey demytholises Henry Edward Manning along with others, including our revered Florence Nightingale.

[@fox39forever]

@@jennyoshea1958, thank you for the recommendation!

[@matthewwhiteside9991]

I'm an atheist but good on you!!!!!!

[@thewordforever4839]

Is CoE mass not open again? Catholic mass resumed two months ago!

[@liammccann8763]

When I seek to prevent imposters entering my house, I lock the doors. Is it too much to believe that our Heavenly Father has done the same? I plagarise this analogy, the source escapes me. I pray that this period of discernment illuminates the conscience of the entire episcopate. The Body of Christ will not be returned to the Father mutilated a second time. Ne timeas.

[@deirdretrotman2104]

I have left my local Church because I am so angry that our Bishops and Clergy didn’t stand up and refuse to lock Churches. That doesn’t mean I have lost or left my spiritual faith, in fact I am working harder than I ever did and find that spirituality outside the Church is flourishing. This is the way forward I believe - people need something to believe in, they always have, and who could be better than Jesus and his teaching. Jesus would have stood alongside us of that I am sure.

[@elenorvass3789]

Yet to meet a christian who doesn't think Jesus agrees with them.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

Has anyone HEARD anything said by the present Archbishop of Canterbury recently? He is, after all, meant to be a leading National figure; is he not? Yet he has been strangely silent throughout the entire covid crisis. Has the 'charism' of Yahweh and Our Lord been removed from him?

[@danielhanney3326]

Exact same with the Pope..failing to lead.

[@jennymason1785]

Hasn't the Pope given up his title as Vicar of Christ ready for the bringing in of the Noahide laws. It's like Jesus is being pushed out.

[@johnbull9195]

The only Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit

[@jglammi]

there almost no "threat" at all to anyone under 70.

[@julieandrews1741]

I was blessed by the Holy Spirit in 1971 and have been frustrated over the years. I kept with the church of England as I feel Holy Communion is important Now that is going, no communion wine representing the Blood of Christ, no singing so whats left and where do I go? We are gagged in church and gagged by society actually and by not being listened to There are few churches of any denomination that as the speakers discuss value the true Gospel and the supernatural and eternal elements to our faith. Yet I believe God will do something, He will somehow draw together perhaps underground those who want to follow Jesus and live in His Kingdom.

[@hannannah1uk]

Matthew 28:16-20 The 'nations' are here! More arriving every day! Get doing!

[@XNY_Music]

The role of the Church is to act as middlemen between humans and the Divine. Humans are quite capable of reaching God directly if they follow the yearnings of their heart and so don't need to go to any Church When certain of these middlemen act in a way that is evil and abhorred by society and the Church acts to protect the middlemen and not the victim then the consequences lead to the abandonment of the Church and the pursuit of finding God in your life.

[@andreare7766]

I have not read the comments yet, but I have to say THANK YOU for this podcast as it describes very well the way I have been feeling about the state of the Church (or is it "the church"?) in the past few months. OK, panic struck and churches were shut down and I have to say, my parish priest has been very good at making sure the mass, among other stuff, was always available, albeit online. But what about the Bishop's Conference? Oh dear... they really like their health and safety regulations. Nay, they relish it! I think they are just too afraid of being blamed if someone sneezes, and being accused of some kind of "negationism". I have to say, even the Parish priest has embraced it, chiding people from the pulpit because they exchanged a few words outside the church. Ok, it is difficult to know where the will of the Bishop end and the will of the priest begins, but still... the end result is what counts: going to church does feel like entering a crime scene and no-one even tries to lessen the gloom. We are even ACTIVELY discouraged from attending church at week-ends because we need to give everyone a chance to go (which is fair enough, but what about having an extra mass if demand outstrips offer?) To give you another example, when churches reopened it was decided that they would be open for private prayer. In my naivety I thought they would be open as normal so people could come and go as they pleased, but no... only 1-2 hours a day, provided there were enough stewarts to police people, take them to their seat and dole out hand sanitiser (and I am not kidding you). People were deemed unfit to police themselves. I shall spare you the mass routine... let's just say that signs abound. One small technical note: the audio could be improved. I thought that the sound was quite muffled and more than once I could not make out what was being said. Again, THANKS!

[@Denis-tg6jw]

Andrea Re you said it! I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that risk aversion drives every single thing the Church does. The only thing operating without restriction in my diocese is the considerable admin team based at the cathedral. I was amazed at the number of committees that run from diocesan HQ, including the all powerful advisors to the Bishop. Meanwhile we had big problems getting a priest to visit my father in law, dying from cancer. (Cancer NOT Covid19). The priest who did come, may God reward him, was a Goan priest. Clearly concerned with redemption for souls and not personal safety. I'm never really sure about Damien Thompson or what his motivation is, but what a lost opportunity for priests to show courage and belief. The likes of Fr Doyle and Byles, are obviously long gone.

[@andreare7766]

@@Denis-tg6jw , I confess that I don't know the interviewer. I even goggled him, but didn't find much. He did mention the Oratory, but really it matters not what his views or his agenda his. What matters is that I recognised myself in what was being said.

[@soniavadnjal7553]

@@andreare7766 You don't know Damian Thompson? Well-known journalist and writer, religion commentator for The Spectator and other catholic journals, etc.

[@soniavadnjal7553]

The sound was quite clear for me, how come you had a problem? Otherwise I agree fully with your comments on the situation.

[@andreare7766]

Forgot to say that I sent this podcast to my parish priest. I am sure it went down like a lead balloon :D

[@williamkosh3672]

I was a server for years in a village C of E High Church. How many souls have been gained by 60 years of compromise albeit by good decent people.

[@hannannah1uk]

No bells, no services. They didn't mention jesus much anyway, it's all Paul... Paul... #TrustChrist

[@citizensnid3490]

Beautifully educated people talking about God what’s not to like?

[@inhocsignovinces6472]

Not go to under ground. But FIGHT BACK

[@Mark_Dyer1]

The former Church of England has, of course, become the 'Church of Career-Clergy', where the clergy close the doors to THEIR churches, and tell the laity ('ordinary' followers of Jesus of Nazareth) what they must do! I disagree with Gavin; because I think the time has come for the laity to remember that - through our belief in the God who was incarnate in the One who called him 'Father' - we are ALL 'ordained' and sanctified. We are able to remember Our Lord's agony and victory within our own homes, much in the way the primitive and early Church met for its first two hundred years. We all have different gifts; and now is the time to call on those gifts. Christianity must become 'radicalised', using our CANON of scripture to guide us. A 'radicalised' Christian is about as much to be feared as a 'radicalised' Jain. We are nothing like 'radicalised' Muslims; for our 'model' is our Lord, himself: and not a desert war-lord. Here endeth the lesson. As for "You can't be Catholic, and refuse reconciliation with the Pope" (18:00). No, but you CAN be 'catholic' and CHRISTIAN and refuse reconciliation with the Pope. And, when all is said and done, like all other bishops, the Bishop of Rome is merely another 'career-cleric', who (Damian gives us to understand) has sacrificed the Church in Hong Kong to preserve 'good Vatican relations' with the Chinese Communist State.

[@Denis-tg6jw]

Mark Dyer perhaps career clergy aren't quite so prominent in the Catholic Church, but boy do we have some who regard self preservation as the only real god.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

@@Denis-tg6jw Denis: although I live in Somerset these days, I have a dear friend in the North-East of England, and she attends her local Parish Church, where the 'priest' is a woman who likes to be called 'Father' before her first name. She is ex-military (funny how so many servants of Mars suddenly feel themselves 'called' to represent the Prince of Peace on their retirement from the military. Don;t suppose it has anything to do with 'status', security, and a reasonable income!) and is extremely unwell: yet she turns up at the end of her sick-leave period to do a few days work, before being signed off again. The Parish Church is suffering; but they cannot replace the woman by advertising the post, because she blocks it. Such are the priorities of the 'career-clergy'. This is why we MUST do without them; from the ABC downwards. The church's clergy were never intended to be 'hierarchical': but to exercise a variety of gifts and functions. Rome made it monarchial!

[@kevinbill9574]

This is what BBC Radio 4 was like before the fall of Western civilisation.

[@jz5425]

I am totally disappointed with the lack of leadership shown by the catholic church. We must be allowed to attend services. No restrictions for weddings or funerals. Why is it possible to get on a plane but we are not allowed to go to church. Pathetic

[@tonyoliver2750]

John MacArthur of Grace Community Church puts Welby to shame.

[@g-man8705]

The problem is encouraging church attendance during a pandemic would decimate the (mainly elderly) congregation of the average parish church and quite obviously bring the church into disrepute and therefore be totally counterproductive. Instead, the church has ended up angering / disappointing its own members which is regrettable but the lesser of two evils in my view. The child abuse scandal in the RC Church has illustrated the problems that arise when churches act as if they are above the law. They are perceived as arrogant and indifferent to human suffering. However, I do agree that more pushback was needed. Here in Poland most of the RC churches have remained open throughout the pandemic due to pressure exerted by the church on the government.

[@ginabideau3748]

It's the same in Ireland North and South. In N. Ireland you must book a seat for Mass! I don't understand why the clergy can't use or hire an open space where people could attend Mass or Church in their cars and take along their own bread and wine ,have it blessed and hear Mass. Recently the Bishop of Dublin attended prayers to celebrate the end of Eid with the Muslim community in Croke Park the seat of the GAA. Why can that not happen for indigenous Irish citizens!

[@soniavadnjal7553]

In some Democrat run states in the US, the faithful were forbidden even to gather outside, although socially distancing. It has become for some a political tool, to be used against the Faith.

[@holly52ful]

I have been a preacher in the US for many years. I have preached in small churches. Now, the state of the church is weak?? No it has fallen from grace. The stories so can tell u are very dark and grave. Materialism. Idolatries, fornication, etc, etc. We’re in a time of the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 and I Timothy 4:1-4;II Timothy 4:1-4!! We need to take the authority of the word and put off man made religion and take a stand against the establishment in the churches?? lol at the Old law and the fallen Israel!! Read the minor prophets and prophets like Ezekiel and Jeremiah!! We are re- living those times. The flesh takes precedence over the spirit in our societies! Well I cannot keep writing but Gods spirit will move the saints to greater heights!!

[@joeymcneill4875]

If the temperatures get any hotter everyone will be underground.

[@leeboss373]

Is it time to restart the crusades?

[@PilgrimMission]

Vichyite Bishops!

[@Gorbyrev]

Greatly appreciated and much needed conversation. I guess it follows that a church that has lost its sense of God's supernatural provision will be risk averse and cautious. Veni sancti Spiritus.

[@fluxstandard8364]

Keep up these and I may cash out for print

[@holly52ful]

?? Why not connect Christians via zoom and build it that way?? New generation of young people are hungry for leaders and those who want to lead a new movement with righteousness and holiness!!

[@naradaian9196]

We done brothers. Latin is Eurpes mantric language ..ie numinous and therefore 'contains' more light. Hence the latin mass works much more than secular modern languages....in case its helpful

[@paulwild7580]

We have been underground for centuries. Don’t look at ritual or fake church’s. People don’t really call themselves Christian anymore Just people who choose to Jesus who isstill is the son of god, Still answers prayer and will still return.

[@paulwild7580]

Church is where we go to have religion done for us. Christ is where individuals go regardless of church ( small c) common Jesus didn’t die and rise again so we go go to his little theatres every week.

[@petermillist3779]

You need to mater You must understand that 'the church' is NOT just C of E, there is a whole plethora of nonconformist Bible believing churches for whom 'Anglican bishops' and synods et al DO NOT REPRESENT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY IN THE UK!

[@felixguerrero6062]

State Churches will always fail to uphold the Gospel.

[@ChrisWickland]

This is a great article. Thank you for doing this.

[@mrs.cracker4622]

Thank you so much for sharing this!

[@Frederer59]

Ivermectin for Christ's sake!!!

[@robdegoyim4023]

Mmmmm

[@antonymugford6863]

This is absolute nonsense! The churches are having services on Sundays. My local parish church has two services every Sunday and the local RC church has a Mass on Saturday and Sunday morning. My own church, The Salvation Army Citadel, and the local Methodist and Evangelical churches are all putting worship online and the people are watching in good numbers! The church is still worshipping publicly and drawing new people in.

[@borderlands6606]

Sparsely attended churches may notice little difference, but the larger communions certainly do. The Catholic church I attended until recently was standing room only for the main Sunday mass, and most masses on the Sabbath exceeded the maximum Covid number. Weekday masses do not fit the work or life patterns of the majority. On line masses are not a long term solution, and there's no way of receiving the blessed sacrament over the internet.

[@antonymugford6863]

@@borderlands6606 Indeed. That's entirely understandable and maybe there needs to be priestly-led provision of multiple eucharistic services for smaller gatherings rather than huge congregations at one main service

[@redwing221]

@@borderlands6606 really online worship is an easy way to follow while eating breakfast in pyjamas. Creates bad habits.

[@borderlands6606]

@@redwing221 Worship is an immersive experience that is not best served by the parish camcorder enthusiast.

[@soniavadnjal7553]

Sorry, it is a fact that many churches (not only in the UK) were closed, even for private prayer. Perhaps services made available depended on the local Bishop

[@Hertfordshire247]

Caption contest: "Hello sailor"

[@jennyoshea1958]

Read 'Eminent Victorians' by Lytton Strachey. It may open your eyes to the good men of the Church in the guise of Cardinal Manning. Strachey demytholises Henry Edward Manning along with others, including our revered Florence Nightingale.

[@anthonyrybicki1000]

A good read but it has nothing to do with today's Church nor indeed the current state of political leadership or lack thereof.I am an active reader of history and note that the presence of charlatans in No.10 is not new but maybe more obvious in the age of internet.

[@delft72]

Matthew 5:15 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

[@TheYanbibiya]

The official Church is dead. The free Church is very much alive. It's God's church. Don't be arrogant.

[@adamgrimsley2900]

Or dissappear? Maybe best

[@kevinratley938]

Get back to basics the Lord says

[@robertaspindale2531]

Please buy a better mike.

[@templarknight5557]

Ludicrous title.