Is Mythic Nighthold Too Hard?

[@Analysoija]

LFR shouldnt warforge over normal, normal shouldnt warforge over heroic, and heroic shouldnt warforge over Mythic, that is one solution

[@knauz21]

This a hundred times.

[@R1NZL3R]

I agree, however that's how it works. The problem is the TItanforge system that lets an item go from anywhere to 5 ilvls over Warforge to all the way up to gearscore cap. And that's kinda dumb..

[@RaceyPL]

Give that man some AP

[@someonesomewhere5994]

i got itemlvl 895 titanforged shoulders from lfr, they were better than my warforged heroic.

[@Hydracen]

what if titanforging was never introduced to the game and they got completely fucking rid of it it just cheapens high-end raiding, you can roll a dice raiding every difficulty but mythic and end up with identical or better gear. why spend 500-600 pulls on NH progression if there's no real incentives?

[@Ryukasan1]

As an enhancement Shaman, I got the other day my BIS Ring, the one that drop from Gul'dan, Heroic titanforged 925! This is an exemple of what Asmongold is trying to say. The worst of it, I did not even kill Gul'dan. I got it from the quest you get from a rare order hall mission that asks you to go and kill a Nightold boss on any difficulty. So I went there, killed LFR Elisande and received my BIS ring for probably the next 8 months. Even as a casual raider, I find it stupid....

[@papaemeritusii7039]

Right- you take it, and are pleased. But its bittersweet. Like being handed Excalibur rather than pulling that bitch from the stone yourself. IT lacks the luster of accomplishment.

[@Ryukasan1]

That's pretty much how I felt yes.....

[@Cri354]

The 2nd week of being 110, as I was doing that weekly quest for timewalking dungeon, I got myself a 890 back, like it was nothing. Then, again from a quest, I got a Nighthold heroic wrist (895 ilevel) without even touching normal at that time, let alone heroic. So far I got an ilevel of 885 and I haven't even finished LFR Guldan or touched any Mythic difficulty raids (doing even Heroic with pugs is a fucking pain and I am not in a raiding guild). SO yeah, while it's great to have the big dick numbers, it does take the incentive of bothering with harder difficulties when titanforge is still a thing.

[@magisch430]

Guy in LFR the other day pulled a 920 drought of souls. Higher then mythic gul dan from LFR. Real fair, that is. In our raid team, plenty of people have 920+ gear in slots, and the last time we killed mythic skorp, we had to D/E all but one of the items, because people already had similar / better from heroic.

[@xzyvvy917]

Multiple people in my guild have titanforged heroic gear. Myself I got 920 Heroic cloak, got relic from Mythic Triliax and from now I only kill this boss on Mythic for parses and titanforges. This meme is around for some time already: cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/129594743393878017/292407458737946634/IMG_1262.JPG

[@jumanjijoe9198]

I got a 920 ilvl ring from a heroic nighthold cache that I got from a order hall quest which I completed in lfr. So by doing a quest I got gear that's mythic quality from lfr. That's how you know Blizzard fucked up.

[@pro100tonich]

Jumanji

[@NewFADS17]

I got a 920 EN trinket from an order hall quest and I completed it in LFR. It's better than most all NH trinkets. Totally demoralizing.

[@matsen1153]

Jumanji Joe but dont those quests only give LFR caches?

[@jessm8299]

My guild got Mythic Krosus 2 weeks ago. We're losing a person a week now and I'm at the point that I don't want to recruit anymore and just turn my guild more casual. The issue is beyond Titanforging, there's also the legendary problem, the endless AP grinds, and the fact that content is coming out too fast.

[@shirafudee]

you mean raids come out to fast? there is no content rofl

[@princepickle]

They should get rid of warforged, titanforged, etc... it causes too much confusion

[@tobiasdyngeland279]

princepickle the WF is there so you feel like every time you do the content you have a chance to improve your gear

[@rowlandbuck2703]

Why is blizzard failing at common sense gave development that's 30 years old?

[@Mangs1337]

Mythic Krosus felt like running headlong into a brick wall.

[@TarihaciGamingSquad]

To solve this problem they should make lfr gear titanforge max until they hit normal cap. Normal gear can't titanforge higher than heroic gear and heroic gear can't titanforge higher than mythic gear. It is stupid to see somoene with lfr tier piece 900 when you have heroic 890 tier piece.

[@nhagan001]

Irony: when your hardest raid has less reward than the "special olympics" version of the same raid.

[@joshuamccreery1641]

Titanforging and warforging just needs to go away.

[@CrazyKinjaz]

this would solve everything. dont understand how they cant see that :P

[@AlvinEarthworm]

Solve everything for the 1% who raid mythic. But it would screw over the other 99%. Gotta love elitists and their selfish attitude.

[@michaelharland3008]

Mark Haynes but you don't need anything more than 880 gear to clear hc let alone normal

[@turost3034]

Incentivices running older content, it's good in some ways.

[@Pray888]

Na, warforging is fine. Titanforging is prob unneeded. It'd be simple if they just made it so you can't get titanforged/warforged stuff that's the same level or higher as the next difficulty.

[@Strazii-xD]

I agree with every single word you said in this video, as well as preach's video since I watched that not too long ago myself. I personally raid to overcome the challenge, and tonight my guild killed Mythic Botanist after weeks of farming it, and the sigh of relief was insane. but the fact that we've done it on heroic and gotten higher item level stuff, or things that are just 5 ilvls below, is fucking stupid. Someone said it in the comments already, but LFR Titanforged items should stop 5 lvls below normal base items, And so on and so forth... Normal titanforged should be 5 below heroic base, heroic TF 5 below mythic base. Or maybe even for heroic it should be even more like 10 or 15 below mythic base. Another thing that has sort of disincentivised mythic raiding is Mythic + dungeons. I know it's not quite the same, but when you can get 900 or higher ilvl shit from dungeons, and you just raid for the gear and don't care about set bonuses or something, that is another reason to not do raids. Why get 20 people when you can find 5 easier. I know it's not quite the same as raiding, and obviously you will never get the tier sets from dungeons, but it's an aspect that is still there. Gear is seriously to easy to acquire this xpac compared to other xpacs.... and even though Legion, in my opinion, is better than the past few, It for sure has it's own problems that need to be addressed badly...... I don't see why the gap between hardcore player and non-hardcore player needs to be so small as far as gear is concerned. No matter what game you play there is going to be that gap and giving everyone pretty much the same gear makes overcoming the harder challenges in the game sort of obsolete. The higher top tier players deserve the rewards of beating the harder content.

[@raziel6304]

Literally copypasted Diablo 3 loot system. You can spend months farming for that ancient legendary (WITH THE CORRECT STATS!) item you need for your build in diablo 3. Now they're trying to do the same for Legion, they dont see titanforged as an issue, they actually want you to farm shit endlessly because that means more time you're farming for the best stuff and less time you're asking when is the next content patch coming out. For the game to improve, warforge/titanforge needs to LEAVE.

[@63Limar]

The Main Duck yeah this is fucking joke. They are trying to copy the game which is FAILED. How fucking stupid this company has become.

[@Phemyto13]

I think that the warforge/titanforge system is useful,simply because if i get some gear of 905 from hc i dont roll on it in mythic and so my guild mates can gear up faster this way. I do believe though that even if you had 900 you would not have rolled on 905 and let a guild mate take it. Maybe the solutions really is to try and make titanforge cap at some point and maybe remove the forging from mythic gear? It will certainly make it feel like you have got the best you can have.

[@Kyle0073able]

He's got very good point. I am a very casual player. I am strictly LFR and will be for the unforseeable future. I was lucky and looted an 895 ring from Tichondrius. My Ilvl is 890 and I have never done a mythic raid let alone heroic or even normal. So why go join a mythic raiding guild and get on a raiding schedule when you can get gear very nearly as good on what is essentially the easiest setting of the game.

[@kill3rfurby]

Kyle0073able Right there with you. I stick to LFR because why go through the actual stress of pushing myself to my limit to tick up a few iLvls only to be turned away from the groups that will be statistically getting less out of it than I could? I can queue for LFR, go make dinner, come back and clear NH in an hour, and still get gear well into the 880+ range. I've "experienced" the raid (don't even start arguing) and still got the gear. No need to devote my life to the process. It's a good and bad thing for casual players, for that is what the system is for: people like me who can't/won't put 3 days a week of their life into reaching the "top tier" of players. It's nice because I don't have to beat my head against a brick wall to move up a difficulty level (theoretically), but it sucks because the barrier to entry to the end of the endgame is by necessity so damn high (and gives so little in return) that there is no point for me to care. "HEROIC NH 0/10 MUST BE 880+." Have fun, I'm gonna go pull Tichondrius and watch a movie.

[@coasterslol8831]

it is painful to see casuals who get no time on there hands due to life, that even doing lfr/normal nighthold should there IL be 890-900 just bothers me when mythic raiders are only really 15+ IL above you, but you have the same gear/trinkets then them

[@chickenflem2535]

yeah i got a 915 draught of souls from doing a weekend event lol and i only usually raid LFR.

[@janp5063]

890 in bag with 3 or 4 legendarys but its near impossible to go lvl 900+ without Mythic raiding or grinding alot more mythic+ inis.

[@KeepstayingFlawless]

Jan P just started playing since 7.1 3 weeks ago and im above 900 on one toon and almost two others with only heroic raiding and hardly any m+

[@ravenmourne]

@Asmongold I feel like it's really about people's tastes or perspectives. Me and my guild for example know all this "get same gear from lower difficulties" thing, but we still go raiding mythic 3 days a week, because it brings us together to live some pretty nice moments. We actually did the contrary of what you said and we actually went Krosus after Trilliax and we downed him after 2 weeks and a half (yes, it took us some time, but it felt like the only viable way at that point). When we killed it, the boss had 1 second left to break the bridge and we all went nuts on Discord like we downed world 1st Gul'dan. Sure, we didnt do anything big there, but it surely felt good and it was fun.

[@almondmilk7319]

LFR titanforging should cap out at 5 iLvl's below Normal gear. Normal titanforging should cap out at 5 iLvl's below heroic gear. And Heroic titanforging should cap out at 5 iLvl's below Mythic gear. Only casuals who don't want to work for gear will disagree with this comment. Also Mythic gear should have mythic tier piece effects, for example, normal warrior tier bonus is (enrage last 2.5 seconds longer), the mythic effect should be (enrage last 3 or 3.5 seconds longer).

[@Shr3zzor]

Just remove this shit. Loot in itself is already RNG, even more RNG is just stupid

[@almondmilk7319]

Hennessy Andrews Lol you're a chick, you probably get carried through mythic by a guild because you're a girl and everyone wants to fuck you. Your opinion is invalid.

[@Scr33ms]

oh my god. hugh, you alright? i'm concerned for you after than ass blasting she just gave you

[@almondmilk7319]

Weeaboo tryin to fuck too? Go back to watching anime kid.

[@almondmilk7319]

Yo azure, I went at Gou because he went at me first, what's the issue?

[@boots911]

its so satisfying to watch your background gameplay on this one.. a full group of 895+ one shotting normal bosses in 30 seconds.

[@thePhished]

TL:DR the warforging system is the dumbest bullsht ever. Blizzard doesnt even play their own game.

[@dna2078]

they stopped playing the game after the lich king :)

[@Orphioux]

I kind of doubt you raid with what you've said, unless it's in a semi-casual guild that is still on normal nighthold as even a 925 titanforge trinket from a myth+ is generally completely inferior to a nighthold trinket, M+ gear is nowhere near as good as set gear etc etc.

[@Orphioux]

I really don't think it is a problem though, titanforge to 925 is like 1% or lower chance and you can only get like 5 rolls on a boss each week if you use all bonus rolls and kill it repeatedly, so if the trinket already was 15% drop chance the chance of getting one at 905+ is really really low, beyond unfarmable.

[@vividly94]

Yeah, that's why people are complaining about the new system and putting the old on the toadstool. Nice logic, fuck wad.

[@Orphioux]

Was that aimed at me?

[@Fingolfin3423]

Lots of things to talk about here. I agree with almost everything you said, Asmogold. Most of the people in our guild raid due to factors you mentioned at the beginning, such as social benefit and accomplishing something larger than themselves. Yes, gear is part of the progression, but I think the problem with mythic NH is that its over-tuned, which is preventing guilds from seeing a more natural "kill pace" - investment vs. reward. We're two months into NH now, right? Most guilds are at 3/10M or lower. That's a giant red flag. I have no problem with tightly-tuned mythic fights, but they should appear as a mid-level "check" fight or later in the dungeon. That's my opinion as someone who's been playing since Vanilla and is currently 7/7M, 2/3M, and 3/10M. We just did Krosus last night for the first time and the damage and healing requirements (with three heals) felt a bit much. Our average item level is 902.8. After looking over logs, it looks like we don't meet the damage requirement. The question becomes, what now? I guess Spellblade. We're in that 80% of mythic raiders you mentioned early on. Also, our big hangup was mythic Anomaly. Scorp and Trilliax were much easier. I agree that mythic NH should drop better loot, but I don't think it would be enough to motivate the main mythic raiding base. People are disenchanted by the tightly-tuned nature of early and mid-level bosses. There needs to be a more natural pace of progression. It can't be tuned around top-tier people with the most time investment available, most titanforges, best legendaries, maxed AP, and maxed off-specs. This leads to the other giant discussion about Legion RNG and AP. I like your comment at the end: "Mythic is not synonymous with nearly impossible." Like you, we're just a group of people trying to accomplish difficult content and have fun doing it. We're organized, dedicated, prepared with consumables, on time, ready to go, open about raid strategy, all that good stuff. The previous raid tier had rewarding progression for us. This isn't the case with mythic NH. I see there's a lot of people upset with the titanforging system in the comments. I really don't have a problem with it since I think the problem is tuning. I agree with Asmongold about the tuning being set around the expectation that people have gotten fortunate with titanforges, though. That's dumb for sure.

[@chill9871]

i got a 910 Convergence of Faits from normal mode and guess what .. not one second was i excited/happy/proud that i got that thing .. i just felt disgusted at a game that gives me a mythic (even higher) item level trinket from a normal difficulty boss thats about equally hard to kill as any heroic dungeon boss.

[@TheRobochicken5494]

chill9871 thats why i unsubbed... just sayin

[@chill9871]

even if this wasnt the reason why i unsubbed but ye i quit wow 2 days ago aswell

[@xyhgn]

yep that's the thing with legendaries too, i have 4, one of them is BiS but i'm not even happy or proud of them because I did absolutely nothing to deserve them, only did everyday 4 repetitive quests.

[@xyhgn]

this game gets closer to an arcade game than to a mmorpg with this bs rng

[@AlanRedrew]

Disenchant it then, nobody forces you to use that item if you don't like it

[@tomatophalanges]

I'm okay with Titanforging and Warforging existing. It's a super exciting feeling to have gear that scales higher than it would've- especially when its exciting to get gear at all. However, I think the ilvl of Mythic gear should absolutely be the highest quality gear you can get - make it 925 or 930 baseline - even if that means letting it be competitive with legendaries. It should be like 'Woah, this gear from this raid is so GOOD that you can literally replace legendaries with it sometimes, but the effort you have to put in to get the gear is HUGE'. That seems reasonable to me.

[@BOTBEditing]

I totally agree with everything in this video and I hope and pray that Blizzard watches this and do something about it. Saw a picture of a dude with a 920 socked lfr draught of souls..... dear god

[@Drashrock]

what about the rest of his gear thats barely 960?

[@zorashki]

Or maybe you should grow up and stop caring about what others are getting? its a video game, "Oh i raid because i want to get the higher ilvl gear in game that nobody can has" is an old method - your skills/logs is what matters now.. and mythic+ is the new esports+ - so go cry more about someone winning the lottery.

[@HACKshader]

Year later we still see someone with a 985 ilvl socketed trinket from LFR...

[@pragmaticbias2050]

A friend of mine got an ilvl 900 tier chest in lfr. I have a heroic titanforged chest that is 905... I don't mind the titanforging.. but lfr should not be able to go up 40 levels. Ideally I would make it so that harder difficulty content has an overall higher chance to titanforge and have higher potential ilvls. Lfr should only titanforge up to +15, normal +20, heroic +25, and have +30 in mythic.(keeping mythic titanforged gear under legendaries)

[@noeldillabough2153]

To be fair there's 100,000 scrubs for every mythic raider, so having the chance at upgrades is a great feature that appeals to the masses which pay the bills...that said upping the base iLvl of mythic rewards so they'd always average a higher level than all but the luckiest of rolls seems like a good solution. The prestige of Mythic keeps the rest going, if mythic disappears I could see Heroic following until there's only the cesspool of LFR left.

[@rheviono4002]

Noel Dillabough Agree and i think items shouldn't titanforge more then 40 ilvls

[@kerenton5897]

Actually it hurts casuals too, why bother doing half the content in the game when you get better stuff from M+ farming nonstop on easy difficulties? WF/TF and other welfare mechanics essentially make most of the content irrelevant for casuals.

[@asmongold1341]

The fact that a random world quest item can TF to 925 isn't what's keeping casual players engaged with the game. By the nature of being casual in that regard, they probably don't have a lot of investment in their characters gear and ultimately don't play to progress their characters' power.

[@dmv4343]

When wow got released, very little percentage of players clear even half of the raids, but population were growing like crazy. People were really admiring raiding players, and becoming a raider was desirable thing. It works differently, you need to have desirable gear, that you may be never gonna achieve etc. Its like Lamborghini in real life or whatever, it inspires you. It doesnt mean that everyone should get that car, it would diminish its value completely.

[@GardenSnail111]

I'm raiding for gear and for lore -- I love the stories that are written and end at the top of a citadel, or at the summit of a temple, or what have you. The gear (to me) is just a nice plus, keeps me inspired to keep pushing harder and bettering my character so I can be the best in my guild. That said, even at being 10/10H, and even though the whole "true ending" thing that Blizz has done with Mythic mode since WoD, it just doesn't feel worthwhile for a story that I can get by watching Method or Serenity clear in 20 minutes over trying to go for weeks and weeks to get to 5/10, 7/10, 8/10 on Mythic. There's a point where even as someone more interested in the story and the personal accomplishment of "I did it" gets outweighed by the tuning and difficulty curve.

[@TheOnlyGatsby]

People are complaining about mythic Nighthold being too hard for what it is, yet talk about the good old hard times in Vanilla Naxxramas which for what it was, was a complete joke. You had to have the best gear to that point to even have a chance against bosses that would drop a reward that's slightly better than the gear you had before.. cheers

[@Channel_4News]

But again, the gear was "slightly better" in Naxx and Naxx was the only place you could get that gear... In the current version of the game, the gear dropped is almost always significantly worse, and you can get the same exact thing on any difficulty doing any content, so why waste time? The raid is tuned around already having the gear that drops or better... that makes it not fun, and not worthwhile...

[@TheOnlyGatsby]

The Warforged/Titanforged is the problem indeed. But then again those drop in mythic as well. On a short term raiding mythic nighthold might seem useless if you can get 910 gear from heroic. But if youre going for the long term you wil definitely get more out of mythic raiding. And that is the whole point.

[@Channel_4News]

How am I going to get more out of mythic raiding? Guilds on my server are struggling to get 4/10 on Mythic. I'm far better off just spamming heroic and normal and LFR... come to think of it... I'm better off not caring about gear and leveling alts while I wait to see if they fix this backward ass system...

[@r4z0r84]

currently its like running mara and getting a random chance at naxx loot, the current system is bloody stupid.

[@TheOnlyGatsby]

Then there is another problem with the Players mindset. If it was about prestige back then, why is it not today, when clearly every body is saying that it is HARD AF!

[@jammann44]

"This game is too easy. Remember when Vanilla/BC was hard?" Legion: "This game is too hard."

[@Asmongold_CatDany]

reeeeee

[@samuellanda9139]

CatDany [Asmongold Highlights]

[@florenceheart8162]

I agree, I raid heroic and I consistently get huge upgrades from trivial content such as low-mid level keystones, EN and ToV heroic, and NH LFR. On reset day I got a ilvl 900 titanforged Choker of Barbed Reins from a +7, however just a couple days before that my guild progressed through the whole second part of heroic NH which we were previously stuck on in one night. That one night not a single piece of monk tier dropped, and not a single piece of gear that would be considered an upgrade dropped either, for that matter.

[@xapemanx]

just a rant on warforging

[@nhagan001]

Signs that someone comes here to troll and doesn't even watch the TL:DR portion!

[@Spuffy666]

xapemanx u probably do fuckin lfr

[@misskobeyoshi2500]

gg

[@Drothen-]

hows going in lfr?

[@Spuffy666]

Lol

[@graffe406408]

Yea Ty for taking time to share your thoughts on Mythic raiding. What Strikes, has both come from the clich preach made about boss kills in Myhtic Nighhold, as you state is like re progress. What I personally hope would come out of this is a buff to the gear, as we cant have HC titan forge item, bean higher than A normal Mythic, agree When do mythic then if u can get nearly as good by doing 10% of the effort ignoring mechanics ,,, etc As Normal now would are at 910, Then what Would 920 means, The positive would be we have a reason to farm gear for A Reward after You finally killed that mythic Boss, "2nd Point we shore the first major step up in difficulty at Hellya Mythic, we could either A accept thats' now how the Mythic raiding would be, Personally If there is a gear reward i would be up for it OR B find a middle ground where you still get the feeling about your are fighting a mythic boss, and your actions Mather, and not tuning a fight for 910 and 54 traits as for a lot of players that a big grind. Keep Up the great work and Ty for your thoughts on this major subject

[@yoshtheknife]

Lol Mythic Nighthold is a joke. I killed Gul'dan on LFR with only 6 determination stacks. Game is a joke too lol.

[@exub]

I was thinking about this earlier and it almost seems like a paradigm shift. We can do any kinds of content for gear and ilvl numbers, my monks 904 right now with no mythic kills, and mythic raiding is purely for achievement/challenge. HOWEVER, this isn't a conscious choice by Blizzard to change how mythic raiding is handled, but rather the emergence of our current situation brought upon by the points you mentioned. I would actually be ok if they kept NH this hard and stated that was their goal, to keep mythic as an optional challenge mode. It leaves content in the game for us to work on for a long time, and we can make incremental progression (to a point) outside of it. Of course, this is very negative to those that only play for gear, and I understand that.

[@StorageYT]

video starts at 0:00

[@eos1109]

I will say that I felt a whole hell of a lot better wiping on mythic helya when it dropped the best possible stuff you could get every time (we didn't kill it pre nighthold), and odyn+guarm dropped it within 5 ilvls. I simply think that the reward for killing mythic nighthold should be closer to the cap. If 915 was the best you could get right now, that'd be just about perfect for where nighthold rewards sit. It isn't so much that I could get lucky and get a great item from heroic that irks me, its that even at the highest difficulty the game is still a slot machine for getting the best stuff for your character. Mythic is difficult, and i like that. The rewards are just simply not in line with that difficulty. So in conclusion pretty much what he said.

[@Tyzen7]

*LOL* .... quit "RAIDING"?!?!? I quit WoW all together. Legion sucks And besides, didn't they say they would add some sort of gear stat progression into the game, kind of like how you do with your artifact weapon. Like grind some sort of currency to give your gear more ilvls? Either way, Blizzard is running on fumes in their think-tank, rather you like it or not.

[@dandosapershing6103]

I love your videos because you put the TL;DR in the description!!!:)

[@darksword1337]

Pretty much the reason i do Heroic and Normal each week. Get in my 15+ mythic done and go back to pvping. I would say the DPS gate from Krosus up is not necessarily hard. More along the lines of, "Time Consuming." Having the DPS or not having the DPS seems fairly straight forward. Challenge comes from mechanical properties. Imo Nightholds mechanics are fairly boring. Mix that with watching idiots mess up on easy mechanics for 40-90pulls. Would make just about anyone quit. P.S. I cleared Normal and Heroic without knowing any of the mechanics. Literally winged it.

[@supermanacf]

I feel like PvP has the exact same issue. The max item level you can get out of 2400 is 900, which I'm sitting glad, so I can't even get, and the rating doesn't go cross bracket, so if I go do 2's, I'll get an 855 piece of gear. Funny story about 2's, I did that last season to around 2300, took 6 hours to get the 10 wins for that one piece of gear... and that piece of gear was a duplicate item. Literally was spending 6 hours a week to get one piece of RNG gear (12 hours technically, because I was doing them on another character as well). I feel like Blizzard has lost touch in giving satiable rewards throughout the entire game. They want everyone to be able to feel good about getting gear via RNG, but in the end, it makes high end play feel very very unrewarding. Oh, the best part is, after hitting 2400 in 3's a month or so before the season ends, the season's going to reset, and I'm back to getting that 855 gear from 3's again. Yippy.

[@CaptainSweatpants90]

2:12 You make an excellent point there actually. I'm one of those people who claims that I raid for just the challenge, yet I haven't been to the Proving Grounds in quite some time and basically tried Challenge Modes a couple of times and stopped doing them entirely after having, like, one on bronze. While I'd still say I play MAINLY for the challenge, I think doing something extremely challenging and not even having a CHANCE on getting anything worthwhile as a reward is something that I, personally, am not satisfied with. So yes, I raid for the challenge... AND the gear. That is definitely a factor.

[@martinlaigaard9794]

Totally agree with you. The titanforge/warforge thing was a bad idea. It gives people who don't put in any effort the chances of being just as well geared as the people who is committed and play 12+ hours a day. They should rethink the system of gearing in raids so that rewards actually becomes a thing again. At least I miss the days where you would see someone wear a specific piece of gear or on a mount that showed this person put in effort and hard work to achieve what they got. Now casuals who play 20 minutes a day have the same amount of legendaries as the ones who plays 6 hours a day. Besides that, great video, keep up the good work!

[@UMCorian]

Yeah, my guild's currently 1/10M. We just started this week, got Skorpyron down in about an hour, spent a couple of hours learning CA, got him down to about 30%. We've heard after Trilliax, the difficulty skyrockets. More than likely, unless something changes, I'm going to recommend to my raid leader that we don't even try Spellblade and beyond. Just keep farming Heroic Nighthold and go 3/10 for greater shots at strong Warforged/Titanforged. Seems like a good way to destroy your guild and burn them out is to try to seriously progress in Mythic NH.

[@jupiterdreamer]

you're right and m krosus bites esp as an aff lock (partly due to the artifact, partly due to class design). we have 17 regulars and were always having to bring in new people for it.

[@Almostskilled]

my guild, we have had.. 4-5 people quit during Emerald Nightmare. Another 3 during ToV, and 3-5 during Nighthold.. i have NEER seen this many people quit, in any other expansion, but i can't blame them honestly. its a massive AP heavy grind, and then add pure RNG ontop of that.

[@docskillzgaming]

I've not really entered the raiding scene this year...but I can certainly understand the perspective you are bringing to this issue. Thanks for commenting on this and bringing some of these issues to the public forum. Keep making great content and being everybody's "boy"!

[@dori356]

It took them 3 YEARS to remove titanforging, 3 FUCKING YEARS

[@TheGhould]

In my opinion nighthold is really hard for range classes because they have to deal with mechanics not like melee just stand in one spot and do your mindless rotation.

[@Newbtuber]

Warforging can work but they would have to get rid of Heroic mode. Then tune mythic a bit to make sure the number work since you the gear is jumping from normal to mythic. If they keep heroic mode, then they have to get rid of warforging cause it is making the harder difficulty matter less. Too many raid difficulty and titan forging is messing things up for high end raider. One of these have to go or get fixed. I would be very surprised to see either go unchanged at all in the next expansion.

[@christopherziegler8204]

It's as I've been saying since I first got into Nighthold. They've got to make raid gear scale according to level. They've got to make raid gear the best you can get. Something like this: LFR: 855 - 870 Normal: 875 - 885 Heroic: 890 - 900 Mythic: 915 - 925 Mythic Key 16 and above: 895 - 905

[@gscgold]

8:31-9:18 this, this is what used to matter. As a new player back in BC there was ONE guy on our server who had both Warglaves period..for all the rest of BC and when he showed up in IF or Shatt...people used to come just to see them and he would always have a group of people just following him around at a distance...and his guild leader had Ashes mount..when he would fly around on that thing in Shatt it was like the whole trade chat will be filled with people talking about it. Those days are long long gone.. yep, I am sentimental and yep I am glad I played then, WoW was exciting back then and it will never regain that.

[@Domoguy13]

Another problem with the loot and scaling is having the item level go higher the later you are in the dungeon completely fucks up scaling from boss to boss and is directly counter intuitive to having the TF/WF system. Make the loot drop 1 IL all the way through and give the TF level a cap where it STILL doesn't make it as good as the next difficulty.

[@ppyigal2]

I agree with you. I usually do a lot of PvP on a casual level, but last week I finally got into some M+ again. I usually do 1 or 2 M+ but last week I did more M+'s than I have for the past 2 months combined, so I was really looking forward to get the weekly chest in my class hall. And on my character, which is a fury warr as well, I have a bunch of items of 875+, 2 legendaries and a few 860 items equipped. I looked up how good the chest rewards could get, and when I finally claimed it, it was a cloak of 880 "Mythic 10 Titanforged" which had worse stats than my current 880 cloak that was Mythic 9 Titanforged.. Like.. of all the items I could have gotten, I just happened to get a worse than my current items for much more work. I don't know, I might just have been unlucky I guess, but seriously I have done less and/or easier content for more loot than that.

[@Zhohan-]

This man needs to be in charge of development.

[@anadaeos8076]

would it be a good idea to only have warforging/titanforging in mythic raids?

[@mikajebsen]

The titanforging system completely ruined progression raiding for me. I don't mind how it was back in ToT or SoO for that matter where things could be upgraded randomly by 6, as it was not encroaching on the itemlevel dropped by the harder difficulties. Now any idiot can go into LFR and come out with gear that is equal if not higher item level than someone who killed Gul'Dan on mythic. They said they wanted to enhance the feeling of effort = reward, but as with anything where Ion is currently in charge, they have completely messed it up and gutted the feeling of what it is to be a mythic raider.

[@TheRealLink]

While I love raiding in general, that's still a really good point Asmo. To me maybe I don't mind it because I've not been so fortunate to be screwed with say, getting a 915 item from normal VS trying to progress on Mythic and only getting a 900. But yes the sense of progression and gearing is vitally important so I do agree with you there.

[@eryck123]

While the titanforge system might suck for mains, it's quite nice for alts/lesser players. I did first wing lfr the other day and got 890 titanforged tier cloak. Man i was so excited, especially since i'm not geared enough to get into HC groups and barely normal groups for that matter.

[@Fubble123]

I agree with your Points Asmongold and see that this could influence my raiders (I am a 5/10M 2day Raidleader myself). But I don't really raid for gear. I just love to do hard content with a big group in the first place and things like gear and achievments come second or third. But you're right: There was this huge amount of social prestige you got back in the days where transmogging didn't exist and it was really nice!

[@koltinwillis8615]

My proposed solution - Set the titan forge cap at 5-10 item levels below mythic items(which will no longer titan forge to keep content from being further over tuned, making progression slightly easier in the sense that rng isn't involved as much) that way there's still a point for mythic raiders to do heroic and normal, but still making their efforts in mythic raiding worth their time.

[@bbplayer0040]

I think that this is a good solution. Mythic gear ilvl can only be obtained by doing mythic so a piece of gear can only TF to is 5 or 10 ilvl below mythic gear. I agree with everything you said, even though I am not a mythic raider.

[@supmotto]

They should put in caps with titanforging based on the difficulty level you get the loot from like normal can't titan forge over 880, heroic shouldn't be able to titanforge over 900 etc

[@Tyrvox]

You could see this coming early on with mythic dungeons and then mythic + dungeons. I know playing fire at the time almost all of my bis items were titanforged items from mythic + and not anything from EN. This is a fatal flaw of the loot design. If you can get your best gear in a 10 minute Maw blitz and more AP, also doing it whenever you would like. It becomes very hard to get people to lock into raiding schedules. In an effort to bump up the lower difficulty content they destroyed the more challenging stuff.

[@mpalermo96]

I've only recently reached mythic NH and so can't say overall if it's too much difficulty, it seems at a reasonable level the first few bosses but I've heard horror stories of later bosses like Krosus and Botanist. I fully agree though that top tier raids needs godlike loot to go with it to make you truly stand out and to make it feel worth it.

[@deathblade909]

Gear need to be separated into Ilv and can't go past what a higher raid tier can give you. Most of our guild was 900 Ilv from mythic plus before we even cleared heroic nighthold.

[@andreifurnica9402]

totally agree with your point of view it's why I just stopped wow completely 2 days ago there isn't that mythic progression feeling anymore due to the titanforge system and not only that

[@Drengen10]

What do you think of lowering TF levels so it at most proc +5/+10 for WF and +15/20 for TF ontop of the base level.

[@radarpinki]

I wish they made the gear like they did in SoO, good increase in stats from difficulty and the wf item's ilvl didn't go over the next difficulty ilvl

[@jeffunpronounceable3538]

Make it so titanforging can only titanforge up to the baseline of the next level of loot (Normal can titanforge up to heroic - heroic up to mythic - mythic up to 'x')

[@windage79]

I enjoy ur vids man. keep up the good work

[@jebuspreston5715]

i think titanforging/warforging is one issue, but you also gotta look at ilvl overall. blizzard reduced the power between beginning of the expansion to the end, they said they didnt like the huge power gaps, but those jumps in power are also what makes a boss easier each time you kill it. so now we get new gear, but without a large enough power jump to make the boss we just killed any easier week after week. you simply dont feel any stronger than the week before like you used too.

[@timmurray4446]

you've hit the nail on the head and the exact same thing as I said on preach's video. The gap between heroic gear and mythic gear is so fucking small that not only is there no incentive but it's causing the more casual mythic guilds to struggle to progress because they've spent 5 or 6 weeks gearing up in heroic, they're all 900+ ilvl and the shit that's dropping of the mythic bosses is all being DE'd or going to offspec because they've already got the same shit or better in heroic.

[@guitarmaniac004]

What addon does Asmongold use for sorting his gear in the character menu?

[@Kaiser_rudolf]

@asmongold you still going to clear 10/10 pre 7.2 with 12 hours per week or is the raid planing to tune it down? as for me, back in bc up to wod you always had some kind of setup... for example you needed the warlocks on illidan/muru or the shadow priests/rogues for blast furnace to be even able to do the fight and now it feels like they also try to get some kinda setup... namley the melee cleave - on nearly all first mythic gul dan kills we saw rogue/dk/warri/dh with maybe 3-4 ranges and that were mostly shadowpriests or fire mages. I cleared hero gul dan 2 weeks after release and started to go for mythic with the guild but with way too many issues we decided to stop mythic progress because it just wasnt worth it... we had like 8 raiding hours per week and after we realised that we had 3/10 after 2 weeks of mythic just like the number guild one our server with over 12 hours/week it just felt impossible... i decided to go back to casual raider and started up a new character on a server where some old friends from my bc time were that also wanted to go max 4 hours per week Its as you say - whats the point to hit my head against the wall 24/7 against mythic bosses when i can get better gear in hero and with a good random grp we can easily clear hero in under 2 hours. If i want the mount or the title i can just wait for 7.2 where most "underpowered" classes will get a buff, we get the new artefact traids and with the gear of the new raid mythic nighthold becomes way more easier

[@italian504]

the solution is easy. Make the WF/TF system have a hard cap of entry Mythic gear (example of 910) and have mythic always be 925/930 or at least 15+ ilevels without a WF/TF.

[@mangomariel]

Mythic should have 6 set tier bonus that you could get from trinket, ring, neck, even tabard or shirt. That would make it feel way more unique. And let the 6set bonus be something visual, that people notice, like different colors on spells, chance to proc empowered multistrike barrage version of spells, chance to summon elemental swarm, etc. Idk why they don't do shit like this, would be so fun. And would make mythic raiders really unique.

[@makkin88]

@Asmongold I think this feeling of no progressions could be easily fixed by having max wf/tf to only go up to 5 ilvls below Mythic baseline Ilvl. Norm nighthold could tf. to 895. and HC could wf to 895/900 depending on wich boss it drops from. That way. All mythic drops would be baseline upgrades, and you would have this feeling of 0 reward. Right now people who've farmed Hc since opening sit on mythic Ilvl items without having stepped foot in there.

[@Shazprime]

I think even a bigger problem than TF/WF gear from heroic is that key spamming is way more efficient at getting gear than mythic raids, and can give you the same if not better gear than mythic raiding does. Once you have the trinkets and tier that you need at like 900+ ilvl (which is surprisingly easy to do with weekly 10/10h and 3-4/10m clears), you could pretty much just drop nighthold entirely and just farm 15+ keys for the rest of your set. I'd much rather just skip raid on the second and third days and spend the 8 hours doing keys instead and get 925 pieces.

[@danhk96]

I also quit raiding before NH, only finished it on Heroic, didn't touch Mythic. Even though I may want to raid I feel that most people in most guilds on my server are just pretty much burned out and there's just too much work for nothing.

[@davidashton1452]

i agree dude, to tightly tuned , i wouldn't mind the punishing mechanics if the dps requirements were not so hard, but putting them both together in many encounters just feels bad, if you are ranged dps its a bad feel time

[@brianhuggins2231]

imho. gear should go as followed: 1- regular purps come from reg. raids. 2- warforged comes from Heroic raids. 3- Titanforge comes from mythic. it would fix all the gear issues that alot of players are talking about, and stop all the rage on how players can get mythic gear (basically) in normal raids. Glad Asmond and alot of others are pointing out this issue. Thanks Asmond.

[@nullpointer6792]

The biggest issue with Mythic raiding in NH, is the time outside of raiding required. This really kills it for "old man" raiders, like myself who have been playing since beta. Farming 54 traits is a brutal time commitment. And since they put a stupid cap on it they had to tune NH around it. Too make matters worse, when you are progression raiding you know what you are not doing? Getting AP. There should be LARGE AP drops for first time boss kills in Mythics. Like I am talking 1+ traits worth of AP.

[@NomadicAssassin]

The gearing system in legion is the problem I'm seeing here, because if they had stuck with only Warforged +10 ilvl increase, or better yet none at all, they could have tuned each raid difficulty to have a 15+ ilvl difference to ensure your always getting better gear. Edit: To add to your point, I got a ilvl 920 neck from Normal mode.

[@stefanvojic4617]

I quit WoW a long time ago. Played from Vanilla straight through to Cata. Raiding back then was so much better Imo because you progressed from one raid to another rather than just through difficulty settings of the exact same raid. Back then specifically in Vanilla and BC what was so great was that you couldn't even begin to work on a specific raid until you had the other raid on farm because of the fact that you required the gear from there in order to have good enough stats to start progression in the other areas. For example you didn't just go into BWL and start progression without having first acquired gear from MC in order to be able to start clearing BWL; and dungeons were a way of gearing up for the first raid that came out rather than a complete replacement to raiding for some like they are now because of the whole gear system they've implemented. Back then each epic felt like an epic and wasn't handed to you like they are now.

[@alturius4]

Maybe add a sort of token that drops, allowing 1 person in your raid to increase the iLvl of a Nighthold (ot ToS in the furture) item by 10 levels?

[@anthony1990101]

100 percent agree with you, my guild is going through mythic but, do i really want to put in the effort when I have almost the same gear for most slots because of tf wf? You hit the nail on the head man.

[@richardmathes4383]

Totally agree. I was happy to clear heroic NH AND get both Convergence and Draught in the same clear, just to have a guildie that would wipe in LFR if there were 25 of players just like him and his Draught Titanforged over mine. Feelsbadman.

[@nnathan1874]

Personally, I enjoy the warforge and titanforge system. It does feel pretty cool to have a chance at getting/get something much better than normal ilevel from almost any content you do. I believe the system especially helps in those instances where you just can't get a certain slot to drop that is dragging your average ilevel down. But most of all I enjoy it because it makes having alts easier. If people don't think the reward is good enough for doing Mythic Nighthold then the solution is to not do it. I didn't enjoy filling the 20 point paragon trait so I only got the first 1-2 points in it and then spent time on other things.

[@Xiteri]

It works for me as I do LFR/World quests, but I don't feel entitled to 900+ gear and the system doesn't give me that, in 6 months of playing I've seen a 885 from a WQ, a 900 from a world boss , and it wasn't even BIS, it doesn't give me a full set of 900 and I don't expect it from the content I do.

[@CubeMasterChris]

How do you get that weapon appearance as fury? I thought that was an Arms appearance

[@gregreicha]

So my question is if mythic gave say nothing but legendary drops (ilvl940), and that was the only way to get them. Plus they wouldn't drop anymore in nighthold after the next raid came out, so they were completely unique to each newest level of mythic raid. But the caveat would be mythic raids would be insanely hard (say less than 500 guilds world wide could complete the raid) would that in you opinion be "worth it?"

[@SL-oe6tj]

The "running up to you and inviting you to a group because they meant to inspect you" part hit me right in the feels. That was WoW...if you were a nub or worse geared player you saw people and were like "damn, I want that too - let me find a way to get that myself".

[@blueatomsk]

Removing the roll-up mechanic, and not tuning around a roll-up mechanic, or around legendaries, would fix a lot of the problems Legion has. But they already put that shit in so they won't bother.

[@wangruochuan]

so true, this is the main reason that dissolved my previous guild. a lot of ppl got 910+ ilvl just from H nighthold and mythic 15 chest and those who dead in the fukin beginning of the boss fight get legends

[@Legacy-Talks]

I think the problem for me is I can join a aotc pug and be done with Heroic NH for the entire week in just 2-3 hours. But I like playing WoW and progressing my character. Unfortunately when I look at mythic raiders, a lot of them are only 3-4 ilvls above me at best. I'm 903 equipped just from heroics. Sort of makes me feel like unsubbing til Tombs because 9+ hours a week for miniscule ilvl increases if that, just isn't appealing. I actually miss when mythic+ gear was competitive with raid gear.

[@FurEngel]

Hes right. I have lots of Titanfordged Heroic gear that is at or better than a lot of the Mythic gear. So when a boss goes down, its like "Meh".

[@YoureWierdImN0t]

Here's my guild finally 3/10M as of March 18th. We struggled with Anomoly and finally got it down within 10 attempt this week. Had a far easier time with Trilliax too. Our raid leader that is 6/10M on another toon often tells about how ludicrous the bosses past Trilliax are. We managed 7/7M EN (Yeah EN was a joke but it was the fact that we managed 7/7M with our guild's history of being a casual guild turned Mythic) and couldn't wait to step into Mythic NH. All these stories I hear about current-Mythic raiders either hating or quitting from Mythic NH really doens't set a good tone for guilds that are starting M-NH or still working on the first few bosses. If ther are guilds with players that have years of PvE experience under their belt and are entirely quitting the hardest level of content while you're struggling with possibly mid-tier difficulty then just imagine the kind of mental image that might present to those kinds of players. I raid for the social aspect and the gear aspect but when I can just plow through Heroic NH in a few hours and get gear equal to some sperg on Normal or Raid Finder then what's the fucking point.

[@ioiioilol]

i could be wrong but cant you get stuff just as good from m+ and im also a complete noob so idk but but doesnt m+15 give 900 items in the chest? idk if thats a better way to get gear rather than m NH then so be it i suppose?

[@Drashrock]

if its such a big problem, why isnt all of your gear titanforged max ilvl?

[@sheil1069]

100% agree killed krosus last night for the 2nd time so the gear was D/Eed and the chests where minimum upgrades due to titanforge or sockets. I'd rather dump 6 bonus rolls on gul'dan because I have better chance of whispers in the dark procing warforged then even killing him on mythic

[@rabidmeese]

Warforging and Titanforging are great systems. I do agree that Mythic should probably be a lot higher (like 925 base), but yeah. With how rare it is to Forge upwards, it's not like Titanforging is killing the game. It's a nice chance for people doing under level content so that, for example, doing EN isn't a complete waste of time. That's cool. The difficulty should be dropped a tad too. That's generally been an issue with progression raiding in NH - it was on the opposite end of EN.

[@cheevue7253]

my personal opinion is that the scaling for NH itself is pretty off. N NH drops like 870-880 gear yet its a pretty hard curve for a group of 865 or 870 to even complete it especially when u need like 400k dps average to safely pass tich enrage timer despite mechanics all being easy, and even for heroic it becomes tighter because i am hardly believing a group of 875-880 would be able to clear all the way. We always have to be equal, slightly if not over gear the current gear that drops from the raid just to clear a NH run.

[@One_and_Forsaken]

Completly agree. But still i will try to get as far as possible in the nighthold on mythic with my guild because i like the fights and the progress and even tho it might not be as rewarding as mythic raiding was in earlier expansions i just want to have fun and try to go on. In the end of the day a proper reward might be more enjoyable but ill take it as it comes. I like my 910 Guldanpants i got from normal :D