Is Poker Better than Card Counting?

[@TheEuphoricism]

not even close, professional poker is *ridiculously* harder. The only benefit to poker is that you dont get thrown out of the casino every couple hours, but the advantage ends there

[@GRice999]

Harder to be perfect, but you don't have to be. Just become good and play in games with worse players. It's not that hard to win several big bets per hour in poker. Also, for a give win-rate, you can get by with a smaller bankroll in poker in the smaller stakes.

[@TheEuphoricism]

bull, youre playing against another human who is also trying to win several big bets per hour

[@tommyfu9271]

That's a huge benefit.

[@GRice999]

@@TheEuphoricism Huh? I said play in games with worse players. It doesn't matter what they're trying to do. You'd be better at it and win in the long run. It's not that hard to be good enough to beat the lower strakes.

[@joshpointoh]

That's the only advantage? What about how much more money you can make at poker

[@rishabh5750]

Ive been a long time poker player, and started practicing my counting journey with BJA a few months ago. This is the perfect video!

[@MoneyForPoker]

Phil is without a doubt not only a legend - but a genuine ambassador of our game!!!!! 🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀

[@joey86bu1]

I've done both. The decision tree for poker can be exhausting.

[@fears1054]

what do you mean?

[@aK-rk3hi]

Poker takes a lot more effort to be good at but in my opinion it's also more rewarding

[@joey86bu1]

@@aK-rk3hi Both are rewarding, I sleep easier taking the casinos money instead of a cash game degenerate's money.

[@joey86bu1]

@@fears1054 In a hand of poker a +EV spot can be a -EV spot based on who you are playing. Is that person tilted, a fish, drunk, do they know what they are doing, are they older, younger, a nit............. In BJ a +EV spot is a +EV spot and that's it. Which makes for less decisions and less possibilities for error in that regard.

[@GRice999]

In poker you don't have to be perfect or even close to it. If you're playing in the right games, the other players will oblige and play worst than you, making you a winning player. In blackjack, you have to be near perfect most of the time or you will be -ev.

[@nicholi2789]

The collaboration I’ve always wanted! As a serious poker player who has been working on advantage play BJ for the last 8 months, I like being able to make money at both. Both of them interest me in different ways.

[@nicholi2789]

The hard part for me about BJ coming from a poker background was the variance. It’s so much more extreme than poker.

[@GRice999]

@@nicholi2789 I think so. I think blackjack requires a much larger bankroll for the same win rate. Variance is also one reason many BJ players play in teams.

[@twistedspine7300]

@@nicholi2789 makes sense since in a good blackjack game with a positive true count you're pushing what, a 1 percent to 3 percent edge on a really good shoe? in poker at the low stakes if your edge is big (something like 10bb/100 or higher) you're crushing and variance is going to be low, especially when you factor in rakeback

[@mikeb-r3y]

Wow Colin. Galfond is a big get for your channel. PG has had a stellar rep in the poker community for at 15 years. As a 20 year poker pro, I can attest that all the info he gave in this video is spot on. All your videos are very good, but your interviews and mock BJ sessions are the best. Would love to see you interview Huck Seed or Harabalos Vulgaris.

[@stoic521]

Could not agree more. There is no better ambassador for Poker than Phil.

[@mikeb-r3y]

@@stoic521 Yeah. PG is a very decent person. But more importantly, his rep and the accuracy of his info is what is so good in this video. As far as ambassadors go, Daniel seems to get most of the limelight now, but Doug Polk or another younger personality like Shulman or someone older like David Williams could fill in the gaps. But obviously don't need any more Bonomos or Haxtons. And for God's sake, let Phil Laak just disappear.

[@justinpisarcik9575]

Pg made one of the worst calls I’ve seen in high stakes poker dude is ass. Him talking “strategy” in a game that is 90-95% luck no matter how many times you try to explain it is laughable lol

[@afsheenmirshafiei9266]

Great to see an interview with Phil Galton on here. Great work Colin.

[@Lcincinelli]

Galfond

[@afsheenmirshafiei9266]

@@Lcincinelli weird auto correct. Yes, Galfond

[@TheBestMan77777]

This was good.. I think the mental ability to handle everything is key. People talk shit, cheat, and the element of psychology is huge. Have to be mentally tough in both and always willing to learn

[@sunchips5]

I played poker semi-professionally from '06 to '13 (profitable every one of these years) and also have done blackjack (advantage play) card counting successfully at low stakes. These days, i imagine poker is so, so difficult to win at because players are much much better today than when i played. Whereas for blackjack, it's just a matter of finding good rules and conditions, perfecting your modified basic strategy, card count, and betting strategy, and not getting backed away from the tables.

[@griffingish2633]

Poker player but been a fan of the channel for years. Advantage play is fascinating to me. Phil is the goat 🐐

[@Donny-rj8pz]

This was just in time. I've been counting for over a year now and actually paid for my car with it. Always had fun with poker and knew it could be beaten like blackjack but I didn't understand poker math. Decided to finally study poker like I did blackjack and I've been crushing my local low stakes home games but definitely not good enough for the real tables yet. I'd love to be a winning player in both poker and blackjack so it's great to have players of each game sitting down and talking about their game's pros and cons.

[@Forsepoker]

Hey man if you see interested I do coaching for low mid stakes winnings players. Dm if you are interested and we can talk and I can give you my background. First session is always free!

[@k1ng_chicken]

One you can beat given proper training, and the other you can buy in to play with luck and skill. Rest of the games are just pure luck. If blackjack is shown to all players as something that you’ll lose money over time as long as you don’t have the proper skill (casinos would still make money from people trying to learn, people that don’t really care, etc.) and poker as a game you can buy to play against others (like a professional pool game, etc.), there’s no deception. Casinos obviously aren’t doing this though.

[@the_jeremiah]

Since I am trying to do both.. this was a great video.

[@Apollyon83]

So I’m not the only one? 😂😂😂

[@kristianrjsYT]

I subbed to you several years back before I got into poker. I learned how to count and memorized basic strategy from your channel but ended up getting into poker and it just came to me far more intuitively. I still mess around at the blackjack tables sometimes, I might give it a go when I can commit more time and a bankroll but this was an awesome conversation

[@danielwilliams9753]

happy to see this collab, as i enjoy both

[@peanut8269]

I like Blackjack because it’s very static and predictable whereas Poker can be a bit more dynamic and play often changes depending on who is at the table. Great video! ❤

[@shauL__]

Just the video I was looking for, thank you Colin!

[@simonmach1ne]

OMG i was waiting sooooo long of this amazing Interview from the GOAT Phil Galfond 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩 i switch 2024 from 13 Years of playing Poker to BJ and i enjoy it, but i also missed the good old times 😢

[@jasonfullerton7763]

Wow, I'm a casual follower of BJA but an avid poker player. Phil is such a great ambassador for the game of poker. Great interview! I don't play BJ (or any other games in a casino) because I'd rather play against other people than a multi-national corporation. And yes, I have dwelled on a single hand I misplayed for days. The uncertainty in poker is what makes it both beautiful and maddening as a game.

[@nas1197-i6j]

Wow perfect timing.

[@TheSmoothGrind]

Way to get Phil Galfond on here! Probably one of the smartest guys in the industry, just a good guy, likeable nerd! Plus he spent several years in Wisconsin!

[@chuckecheese4124]

I'm with Tommy Hyland on this one. The hourly EV is way better in blackjack.

[@austinhoffa99]

I bet , there’s no chances of getting beat by a str8 flush on the river lol .

[@Uncle_Troy]

1:54 So basically what Colin is telling me is that my Fortnite-obsessed nephews could naturally get really good at Blackjack if they just learn to add and divide whole numbers. 😂

[@Road2Serfdom]

In poker you can have 1000-2000+ hour breakeven stretches if you have a downswing at higher stake games that don't come around often.

[@aleksatepavac005]

Is it possible to count cards in eastern europe. Im from serbia and from what i see online ppl say europe is 99% csm. Should i even try to do this then? I know you cant share such info publicly, but can you atleast tell me if it is worth it to start learning card counting or not, based on where im from. Like when i learn it and start networking will i learn of some good spots in eastern europe/europe or those spots dont even exist and i shouldnt even bother to start.

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

We have members who travel through Europe and some European members but the games are hard ot find there. Serbia and more Eastern Europe and Balkans is less likely to have CSMs but the games may be very unregulated too and that can come with other issues.

[@SimonJokes]

Great video, quality and value.

[@matickobe4829]

great collab

[@izzacgray]

Have you ever thought of doing this same format video with someone who is a professional day trader/stock trader?

[@batmasterson7091]

If you are winning at BJ, the casino says to leave. If you are winning at poking, the casino says good job let’s get you some more players, we love players.

[@pbal8067]

Colin, have you ever run into Andy Bloch - who was a member of the MIT Blackjack team & also a member of Full Tilt Poker & WSOP 7-card Stud Bracelet winner in 2012?

[@tomppaazz]

I love this collaboration!

[@willdu2759]

What an amazing cross over!

[@BonesawPoker]

Wow! You got Galfond. Impressive!

[@daaaaaaaaniel]

What a collaboration!

[@locomatze]

Because I own one umbrella these two guys are storytellers Fellas!!!😂😮👌🏼

[@Paul-jt7mw]

Great job Collin I’m A big fan of you both and a member of BJA… I’m Iceman on the form

[@aleksatepavac005]

Hey, the casino in my town has the rule that the dealer stands on all 17s. Does this change the basic strategy chart you have on your website?

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

Nope you can use the same chart. It's a combination of both sets of rules for basic strategy.

[@choboruin]

Galfond is a world class player, I think he's over simplifying how much work it takes to make any money. Lol poker literally has to become your life to make any DECENT money.

[@tommyfu9271]

true online, not true live.

[@AnthonyCola-k3u]

Fascinating interview. I thought they might address playing against the "house" vs. playing against other players. Is there more satisfaction winning casino money vs. other player's money? There are no "teams" in poker, but there can be in blackjack

[@TmasonJ_13]

Dope video!

[@Jenaxu]

Just a small critique, I'd set it up so you're sitting across like your other interviews instead of side to side. You turn to look at your guest a lot which is understandable, but it makes it so your mic volume is pretty inconsistent.

[@anthonysafo473]

Collin i want to learn blackjack what should I start with basic strat or counting

[@nas1197-i6j]

Start with basic strat but you can also work on counting while learning basic strat.

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

Basic Strategy is step one - once it's perfect start practicing counting

[@ssmith3728]

Great conversation. Advantage BJ, for me anyways, needs to remove all emotion. If the count is X, my bet is Y. How I play my cards is predetermined by the count and adjusted basic strategy. The only variable is if and when I employ cover bets. Then claiming ignorance to the other players when doing something against basic strategy. Poker has similarities but with so many more variables at the table (position, player type, stacks sizes, etc). Bankroll management is so important to be successful in both. The benefit for poker is you can have a much longer career. Advantage BJ is a short-term, high stakes venture (in my humble opinion).

[@Tekefes]

Good choice in poker pros!

[@vsanden]

@BlackJack Apprenticeship could you please tell me how I could become a professional Blackjack player in the Netherlands ? Could I do it online or would i have to go to Vegas? What would be the bankroll requirement, have you simulated this and calculated this ?

[@vsanden]

I would like to add, I have already trained basic strategy 26 years ago and read a lot about the statistics behind the game. And trained myself with a program called bj.exe on a windows 3.1 computer and eventually grinding a score of 9997 out of 10.000 hands.... i started over and over when I made a mistake and eventually made my first mistake at after hand 5000 and continued... till 10.000 hands.

[@Siegefya]

What's better, blackjack cc, poker, or day trading? Yes, day trading. Its gambling just like those 2 games are, people say being a good day trader is not gambling, no, its gambling lol. I'd say they are all about on par with each other. I think you can make more in a much more comfortable way day trading. But I find poker and blackjack fascinating, and tbh I've learned certain risk strategies from poker players as a day trader.

[@bjbhunih]

Day trading would be the absolute toughest its far harder to find an edge that you have over other market participants and would usually be incredibly niche like out of the money options or order flow in some illiquid security, technical analysis on eur/usd isnt going to make money, you have no advantage against market makers you're trading against who certainly have a better model for pricing currencies than any retail trader.

[@SpaceMonkey616]

if one was to put the estimated 200 hours in to studying BJ to become a winning player, where can they source the information needed? Is it available for free anywhere? I imagine like poker there's people selling their courses, however a tonne of information is available for free before having to spend money, perhaps BJ is similar?

[@igorranz7967]

Hi Collin, nice channel with loads of high quality content, this one is no difference! If you are looking for a new video idea - can you maybe make one where you explain the differences in general and in basic strategy of european no hole card BJ? I know you have many viewers from europe and at least for me this topic ist quite interesting.

[@francois2823]

I definitely second this, being from France and looking to get into some serious AP, I was also wondering how possible it even is over here (I know the CSMs are everywhere as well :( )

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

We do discuss it slightly in some videos and address it in our member's sections. We'll be recording new content again later this year and I'll see if we can at least create a couple shorts around it and maybe schedule a long form video for the future as well. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@wesch6354]

I tend to lose count after a big hand. Just because I get so excited or bummed because I just won or lost a bunch of money. As someone who is working towards being a poker pro. It's very difficult. So many people playing differently from each other.

[@NealBurkard-ut1oo]

What count? lol

[@wesch6354]

@@NealBurkard-ut1oo when I'm playing blackjack.

[@SavagePoker81]

Is it possible to make profit in online blackjack than in casino? Since I can use all the tools available for me to use that no one can see..

[@dunkacino3383]

8:24 nailed it on the head. Poker is not lucrative anymore, and it takes way too long to figure out if you’re even profitable at a specific stake in a specific game

[@Harbz]

Galfond the GOAT

[@adamo36532]

Poker is harder to get good at but the skill of counting is being able to play without being caught. Poker is better but also if you get into high stakes its harder to find games with bad players.

[@arctixa]

Wonderful! Two different games from two channels I both subscribe too!

[@theajpeezy13]

I mentioned positive EV out loud to a pit boss. Does this blow my cover?

[@runningrock124]

i'm a rational, logical, double degrees in engineering (even though degrees dont mean anything, just painting you a picture) person. figured i'd play some poker on the side for some income. had been playing on/off for about 15years. $10K bankroll, playing $1/3 and $2/5 for $300 buyin and $700 buyin respectively (max amount) wanting to log 800hrs for the year, figuring $20-25/hr over the year logical? started off well, was up $6000 after 5months (May), typical grinding up and down but mainly up here's where the variance picks up. last 10 weeks, ive been coolered and 2nd nuts into nuts 11 times, for the max along with several other horrible spots, and consistently losing, card dead, flop dead i took two different 2 week breaks within those 10weeks lol have lost $10K in those 6weeks of playing within the last 10weeks variance is a bitch threw an entire wrench into my plans. it's unreal. and it can get even worse, as it can continue. im honestly most likely going to quit and give up on the year's challenge and book a loss. it's affecting my mood, thoughts, life, it's crazy fuck me.

[@MoneyForPoker]

Wow wow wow Poker Royalty !!!! My man crush! I Well done, CJ!♣️♦️♥️♠️

[@Squeejee09]

cool video, talking about going on tilt I play BJ but that's my biggest problem by far. I'm better than I used to be but sometimes I still catch myself saying "fuck it" and doing something I know is wrong.

[@JordanNHoule]

Blackjack your taking money from the Casino. Poker your taking money from eachother. With the rare exception of big sponsor tournaments. I’d rather take from the greedy casinos.

[@animaroku]

I think the best reason for choosing poker over blackjack is that poker is an intersting game while blackjack is pretty automatic and boring. Blackjack is safer, but if you want safety just work in tech as a developer and you will get a high salary after some time. You choose poker for the passion, probably all high salary poker players can work at a 200k+ job, but they chose poker because of their passion. Blackjack grinding is just a boring proffession.

[@indianapatsfan]

I would go with blackjack card counting over poker if I was forced to try and make a living doing one or the other. Poker has gotten much more difficult in recent years. I think legalized sports betting has a lot to do with it. Younger, looser, fishier players aren't showing up in the poker room as often now. I suspect a lot of them are blowing all their money at home on the sports betting apps.

[@johannessmithenstein]

I was interested in blackjack but decided to go with poker instead because I had a family member who was a winning player prior to the pandemic and I thought they could teach me some stuff. I learned very quickly and played for about a year, but I ended up quitting because honestly, the casinos are now rigging the cards to screw over certain players. They're using the automatic shuffler machine to do it, to deal out coolers, bad beats, card deadness, etc. It's actually playing against the house now in most cases. For me it just got so ridiculous I literally couldn't win a single hand. I've studied for over a year and got pretty good, but still couldn't win a hand. Even the biggest fish can have a winning session once in a while just by getting lucky, but on the other hand if your hand is designed to screw you from the outset you can't win no matter who you are. This makes me very hesitant to try and count cards because if the casinos are rigging poker, I'm sure they're rigging blackjack which is a much more profitable game for them overall.

[@jmcd2053]

Definitely make more money in Poker, but being a Card counter is just cooler

[@nathanstrange168]

This is like, professional airline pilot, vs professional mountain bike rider…. Which is better?!?! Like these two things don’t have anything to do with each other

[@Siegefya]

It's both gambling card games, what do you mean?

[@GenXisT]

Blackjack is better, imo, because you're not playing against other people. Other people are usually real idiots, especially at local casino poker tables.

[@juliansroadside7624]

I find it easier counting by twos

[@georgebourlos1430]

the whole video can be summed up at minute 8'30 .... "am I being hit with bad "varriance" or have I lost it? " ...BJ player will have better internal tranquility

[@nocky2k]

what a nice vid

[@330miggs]

15" POKER HAAAAARRRRDDD

[@denniss420]

AKA THE FALCON!

[@cosplaytimecapsule]

Count cards. Poker is wayyyy too hard in 2024 players are too good

[@freakazoid4691]

Both take a lot of time. If you love poker, fine, but if you just do it for the money just find a job just enjoy instead.

[@Phlegethon]

Card counting not even close why would you want to keep risking against someone better when you know you can win and scale

[@Phlegethon]

And then you sit around all day long trying to grind hands and can’t leave the table because god forbid the game doesn’t end

[@Phlegethon]

And who is going to comp you? You don’t get banned but no one is throwing those free flights hotels cruises at you non stop

[@animaroku]

Because poker is interesting

[@Phlegethon]

@@animarokuit’s not

[@animaroku]

@@Phlegethon I mean - you can at least be creative with it - its not simply run the known algorithm and just grind this till they kick you. Another thing is that you are very limited with Blackjack - a lot of casinos have the shuffle machine, so you won't be able to do this proffession for long. Also you need the casinos, with specific configuration, unlike poker that you can play in a lot of places, with any configuration. I mean - generally, poker is something that you need to keep being better than your opponents, unlike BJ that you can be profitable and thats it - which is a huge adv, but it is simply boring activity

[@c2corey]

Poker 100%

[@funandgames2339]

It was a good interview, but I felt like it was too rigid and scripted. It also kind of annoyed me how Colin seem to downplay the difficulty of getting hours in at a blackjack table And even at one point insinuating that blackjack players weren't getting hours because they're lazy? Which couldn't be further from the truth it's just a very difficult game to actually play

[@dancrockett4454]

This is comparing chess to checkers

[@PoppysGuitar]

Longer than 200 hours. Way longer. Yes you can get way better very quickly but to get to the level where you can handle the distractions, the variance, the bankroll management, the stress, the surveillance and you're human weakness is a very very long road.

[@dennisdonig8959]

Galfond is the best guy in the whole gambling universe!

[@peterveckmen9314]

Bro should have told about the galfond challenge vs that first dude but bro ran absolutely horrible in the beginning somehow came back to win

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

We did a couple separate interviews with Phil, we're going to drop another in a couple weeks!

[@justiceholybee]

Poker is poker, lol the game is literally in the name….. poker ..

[@bjkjoseph]

Poker, you can choose your games go there at night with a bunch of drunks at a dental convention, throwing away their money. Blackjack you’re playing against the house and overtime you’re gonna lose

[@Moj999_]

Bro...

[@AndyGamingGreatJob]

well card counting is not a real thing, so Poker

[@Moj999_]

I want you to explain how you've become this dumb

[@VictorC-f6y]

Colin can probably beat Phil Ivey if he wants to

[@pointthirteen2234]

Only in Blackjack

[@GRice999]

@@pointthirteen2234 Are you sure about that? Ivey beat baccarat, lol. You can take this to the bank, if Phil agreed to heads-up match against Colin, Phil would be the favorite. Otherwise he wouldn't agree to the match. Phil's agreeing to the match is prima facia evidence he has some advantage that Colin isn't aware of, or had negotiated some kink of spot that makes him the favorite that Colin didn't properly account for. 😁

[@pointthirteen2234]

@@GRice999 don’t get me wrong, Colin is a genius and I’m a subscriber of his actually; but I actually don’t know if he has a professional level of poker. Phil is a top tier poker player who at times takes insane risks and that is extremely scary, just going against him would scare 90% of other elite poker players.

[@GRice999]

@@pointthirteen2234 Colin is good at blackjack, but that doesn't require being a genius (although he might be). As far as Ivey is concerned, he's a hustler and would never play Colin unless he identified an advantage. So if they actually played, Ivey must have some advantage others don't see. That's not a knock on Colin.

[@mikir1741]

Easier to play poker than bj

[@Apollyon83]

🤔 i can see what your saying.

[@curtissingleton9108]

I've got thousands of hours. I've seen very wild variance. It comes down to quiting ahead more often than not. Up down up down, when do you quit each session. Until you see the flash dealer killing it, you have to hold on.

[@SavagePoker81]

Been playing poker for years and never had an upswing.. I would love to learn how to play blackjack I think it suits my personally and style of play better than poker!

[@Blackjackapprenticeship]

We're here for you! Tons of content on here you can check out and see if card counting might be down your alley.

[@SavagePoker81]

@@Blackjackapprenticeshipthank you sir, I’ll check you’re website too if I can afford the fee to enroll..