Is power level important in Commander? | Kingdoms Cast Episode 1

[@wingsofwar15]

One thing that I think is worth pointing out, since you brought up a few times the concept of "doing the thing", is making sure to ask yourself during the deckbuilding process of what that 'thing' really is. Particularly in power levels lower than what would be considered cEDH and high powered, it isn't uncommon for players to express frustration when they are stopped from doing their 'thing', but the problem comes when that thing essentially entails winning the game. You can't ask people to inherently roll over and play to lose when they may have answers or play opportunities to stop it. A good example of this would be the Illuna deck that John mentioned. If he explicitly demanded that he be able to 'do the thing' each game with the deck or otherwise he isn't having fun, then it is an unreasonable ask because doing that thing ensures that he wins more often than not. But yeah, this doesn't really undercut anything you guys said or opinions expressed, but I just feel like it is a valid thing to point out as part of the topic of curating the experience you both wish to have for yourself and you wish to bring to the table when you are actually in the process of building your deck.

[@KingdomsTV]

Very true, if your thing basically wins you the game then it very likely could be a high power if not cedh deck. Or at least it should be built that way to fit in with others with a similar goal.

[@TheLongIslandDashExperience]

Great episode!

[@KingdomsTV]

Thanks!

[@bordercityballerz6530]

That was great! I hope you guys make many more.

[@KingdomsTV]

Sweet!

[@zera2019]

Amazing video

[@KingdomsTV]

Woot!

[@paulieWalnuts91]

Great conversation, love this change from the gameplay content (but plz don't stop the gameplay content lol).

[@KingdomsTV]

Still gameplay for sure!

[@Sc0ttJC]

Good discussion Having some amount of rule 0 discussion is always needed, weither you're playing with your playgroup or with a random pod.

[@KingdomsTV]

Truth!

[@natvMan]

“We’re competitive, well most of us” This may have been pointed at me, and I’m ok with it.

[@KingdomsTV]

Could be

[@Jondstrong]

There were a few options 😂

[@PubStompMTG]

Absolutely loved the discussion. Especially when sorting through cards into decks. Had very many good points in how you said, how you build and portray the deck.🤙

[@KingdomsTV]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@SentientVoyager]

Great first podcast with some really interesting discussion. Keep these coming. I came back to magic last summer after a 20 year hiatus and was a first time commander player. I've definitely learned a lot about how to ensure everyone enjoys the game whereas when I played standard 20 years ago it was all about crushing your opponent. Different mindset and I've really been enjoying it.

[@KingdomsTV]

That mindset is still around in Magic, and even EDH you just need to talk to your group to try and find that. Having multiple options is ideal though. Good luck!

[@mrjonnymac]

Great stuff!

[@KingdomsTV]

Woot!

[@hippiejesus117]

Really enjoyed the conversations! Hoping theres gunna be some more of these style videos in the future! It got me thinking again about how to properly represent my decks. I still have a difficult time understanding how people quantify power levels. Does adding 2 tutors equal the power of 3 free spells? I feel a lot of people weight the criteria differently if they even have all the same criteria to begin with. Since I don't understand it well, I like to give the metric of what turn I am presenting a win on average and a basic explanation. My Zada deck presents on turn 4 and goes FAST and wide vs my Ich-Tekik/Toggo deck which aims for turn 9/10 and builds an army while searching for a handful of wincons.

[@KingdomsTV]

My advice is just tell people what "powerful" pieces you have in your deck and ask them about theirs. The more you share the closer you'll get.

[@Veggie_Dogg]

Love the video, great to put on my headphones in the background and work. No joke Pauper commander really helped my play group with power levels. It definitely can still be very high powered but it ads more creative games

[@KingdomsTV]

With those extra restrictions your creativity can really make it more fun

[@rubmesumcheese5424]

What a podcast love every point y’all talked about makes me think about how I play my game since I am a competitive person but my play group just plays as casual players so I try to dictate how I build my deck try not to go all out

[@KingdomsTV]

I am pumped to hear this!

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

Kingdoms cast 👑

[@KingdomsTV]

Woot!

[@rhettnorman8451]

see my thing is the power level for a lot of different strategies is also a problem. a mid power spell slinger deck might be able to destroy a high power landfall deck. or the highest power gnome tribal vs a low power elf ball deck. a lot of tier lists also reference fast mana, tutors, and efficiency. if i play all the dual lands but have a low power deck is my deck really considered to be strong? i would say it isnt i just have untapped lands and i might be able to play my cards a bit easier. but if i have a low power deck and add a lot of fast mana and rituals id argue that deck is a lot stronger than the dual lands deck regardless of the strategy that this deck has.

[@KingdomsTV]

Fast mana, free spells, two card combos, these things or the lack thereof do not guarantee a high or low power level, but they do contribute. When it comes down to it you need to know how powerful or what your deck is capable of and chat with your play group to make sure you are as close as you can be. That way you all can have the most enjoyable time possible. Good luck!

[@joshholmes1372]

​@KingdomsTV I think it's kind of a weighting system. And the things you listed plus some other things like commander power all add together to determine a number value. Like, take a 4 power precon. Replace lands/mana rocks with duals/ancient tomb and fast mana + 2. Add tutors +1, replace 10-15 worst cards with win cons, staples and synergies +1. Now you're piloting an 8, high powered deck. Other things that should come up are "what turn do you look to win on" and infinite combos.

[@rhettnorman8451]

@@joshholmes1372 so I agree with parts of this. In almost all of my decks I don't play tutors unless it is synergistic with the deck. So I have a Ratadrabik deck but the only tutor I play is diabolic intent because it requires you to sacrifice a creature and that synergizes with my commander. The deck can win on turn 4 but usually it requires at least 12-15 turns. The deck has scrubland, godless shrine, crypt, and ancient tomb. I honestly don't think adding these 4 cards makes this deck that much better compared to doing this to a 3/4/5 color deck where you can add more of them. I think if you had a rating for each category and showed the "stats" for your deck it would be easier but also it would be a hassle. I don't think that vamp tutor and diabolic tutor should give the same power rating to a deck. Or with my deck example I think intent might be rated higher than it usually is due to its synergy. Tutors - */20 Rocks - */20 Other ramp (rituals/land ramp) - */20 Synergy- */20 Land base - */20 Removal - */20 Combos - */20 Win cons - */20 Commander strength - ??? Or something like this.

[@dave7592]

Lol Uril. I remember back in the day I was in a pod with an Uril player and I was playing a Xiao Dunn reanimator deck where I would loop Gary back to back with Living Death to win. So it was just me and Uril and I was at one life and amazingly drew into Living Death with Gary in the grave at 1 life. Just kept recasting Gary over several turns slowly killing Uril. 😂 On related note to video. EDH is a big format with lots of players wanting different things. I never cared if someone played stax or has good cards in their decks. We should all be trying to win. Everyone should learn how to optimize their decks and want to play better. Not to say I'm going to bring my cEDH Kinnan deck to a casual table, but a lot of people misplay and never learn how to get better.

[@KingdomsTV]

Everyone does have different wants, but bottom line we only have so much time so talk with eachother to make sure everyone has a chance to enjoy that time.

[@rulamagic]

Any problem ever? Just rule zero.

[@KingdomsTV]

Ideally you talk ahead of time if possible

[@mightyone3737]

Voja is just too many upsides with too few speedbumps in place, it's reminds me of Tymna, even if you ignored Partner she's an insane value engine that arguably makes her the best Orzhov pick. Voja can be addressed by running more wipes, but many people think doing this is obnoxious, but it ultimately leads to a 2nd issue with Voja decks, if you can't draw enough cards and run only elves for mana you will be nuked into the Neolithic by any wipes, this can result in the deck feeling 'hated out', which can also create a bad play experience, only for the Voja player instead of for everyone else (though tbh if most people are facing a Voja deck they're probably happy to work together). Voja is also too many colours fwiw, they added a colour that afaik makes roughly no sense. I hate easy button Commanders in Casual games, but Voja seems fine for High Power or cEDH, if I expect people to be fine with my Tatyova deck that can win turn 3 sometimes then I have to expect people to also go off now and then. I think players in a group that expects to play against one another repeatedly owe it to one another to try to curate a 'fun' play experience, and part of that is figuring out what your group likes. This isn't 1v1, if you had a great time and everyone else feels like they just went to the dentist for 3 hours then your deck probably needs a rework, either you played it at a bad time or it's not doing what people want to be doing. You know if your group is fine with a deck with more than 5 wipes (5 being the traditional 'plenty of wipes'), you know if your group can handle a Static Orb, so play accordingly... if you love building anti-social decks, build a few decks that are outside your default so you have more options. Voja > Jetmir because Voja both draws cards and scales down better (Jetmir sucks when he's alone, Voja is a card drawing threat when it's alone). I think Rocco is a bigger question, that's a fundamentally stronger effect in practice, Jetmir doesn't synergize with itself enough to be the most powerful Commander in Naya. I still feel like Naya is the 3 bad colours in Commander though, so I feel like if you play Naya in cEDH you have to be a real badass. Looking forward to more!

[@vladplasmius2854]

Agree on Your Voja points. It feels like the same self-sustaining value engine shenanigans that make commanders like Chulane (and previously Golos) the turn zero archenemy.

[@KingdomsTV]

Right, its not always the card, but the addequate explaination of how your deck is suppose to run or not. Communication is number one, always.

[@MRAIClassroom]

Just give a general idea of how powerful ur deck is, don’t lie; keep it movin..: if someone lies and is super shady about, they’re a weirdo try hard… and don’t play with them anymore!!! Now I may just be lucky and have the benefit is playing with 2 groups who play to win, but nobody cares who wins and it is just for fun.

[@KingdomsTV]

I’m Lu it enough to play with some great groups to usually. A lot of players out there have weirdos they have to navigate through.

[@TripsAhoy]

❤❤❤

[@KingdomsTV]

:)

[@majinvegeta6364]

The idea that decks are either casual or cEDH is a fallacy. It's a false dichotomy that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the cEDH format. There are only around 50 viable cEDH decks and approximately six win cons. Commander, on the other hand, is the most diverse metagame of any card game ever printed. There should be enough room for everyone regardless of experience level, budget, or win rate. Not every deck that has a Force of Will, dual land, or beats one of your decks should be banned. That's just something people sore L0$3R$ say.

[@KingdomsTV]

No one is saying any decks should be banned. Just make sure that you do what you can to pair your cedh deck with other cedh decks and visa versa. :)

[@majinvegeta6364]

@KingdomsTV unfortunately you are wrong. Far too many people are using the ambiguous nature of the term "social format" to harass strangers for playing decks that are even a little stronger than their own. This trend is a much greater threat to the future of the format than anything WotC is doing.

[@KingdomsTV]

@@majinvegeta6364 I meant no one here is saying any decks should be banned. There are a lot of crazies out there saying whatever they want. We want people to have fun and the format to grow so we point people in that direction. I hope you have fun too!

[@vladplasmius2854]

It's weird that you start off the first podcast by (purposefully?) misrepresenting the issues with Voja by conflating it with the larger discussion about ward.

[@KingdomsTV]

Voja's issue from my point of view is that those with the Voja deck don't understand how powerful their deck is and so those playing against it have a poor experience as there is a mismatch in power levels. If you think its something else I'd love to hear more about that in the comments. The Voja discussion is what sparked our internal discussion on power level and rule zero so thats why we used it to start. What would you have done instead?

[@VeilXI]

@@KingdomsTVI concur. Voja is a card that screams Timmy, and is probably played at kitchen tables with like minded people. It outscales and out values other decks of a similar mindset. But it’s still just combat and beats. I’ve played it above power level and it gets rolled up by combo and high interaction decks. The card is fine, the tables people tend to bring it to are not.

[@vladplasmius2854]

@@KingdomsTV I wouldn't have dismissed and distorted the concerns with Voja. First, it's a massive payoff for the small amount of effort; it rewards you disproportionately to the amount of setup required. It would be a fine commander without ward, but it got ward 3! This naturally dovetails into the larger ward discussion and how it often seems needlessly tacked on and may be emblematic of lazy/bad commander design.

[@VeilXI]

@@vladplasmius2854 100% disagree. It’s a 5 cost commander, with a telegraphed boardstate for payoff, AND it requires either a haste enabler, or an entire turn cycle to trigger. Not to mention it can be responded to before changing phases. The card is more than fair, it’s just a strong card in an environment of combat matters, kitchen table battlecruiser meta.