Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, & Dockside banned. Is it enough?

[@rmcb7994]

I was checking my collection. Painful as 3/4 of the banned cards are staples. Some decks are unplayable. Hard that I got some during the release thinking it won't be banned because of its promotion as a chase card.

[@KingdomsTV]

The fact that there was no warning made it that much worse.

[@Jman1903]

These were bans i had no issues with. But the problem for the RC is they can advise wizards on cards that wont be liked all they want. Wizards care only about profit. They dont care about what the edh player thinks is fair or not fair. Or the modern player. Or the standard player. They just want more money in their pockets. Which puts the RC in a tough spot. Cause they were blasted for not doing anything. And now we get what we wanted to a degree and its still wrong. Tough spot for them

[@KingdomsTV]

I don’t envy the RC at all. Between a rock and a hard place.

[@imanujakku]

The RC has always danced around the arbitrary nature of the ban list by saying the cards on it are examples of types of cards your group might want to exclude. I’ve never thought it should be a banned list but more of a warning to proceed with caution list.

[@KingdomsTV]

That would be a good alternative

[@esconde9922]

I salute the consistency take o7

[@KingdomsTV]

🫡

[@100authentik]

I play in a group and we invite or allow players to join in our games if they ask. I try to explain the power of our decks based on what they can do. We always adjust to what they want to play.

[@KingdomsTV]

That’s a great way!

[@100authentik]

@@KingdomsTV In regards to what you guys are saying, my playgroup punishes the player that has an early start. Some of the fun is embracing being the bad guy and trying to win. Also, Mana Crypt hurts when you get targeted by everyone off the bat.

[@KingdomsTV]

We do too, not because we are mad, but we have to to try and stay in the game.

[@110019a]

this is why i proxy i dont loose money and wizards does not get too much of my money. commander and cEDH are not official play like modern and standard so just dont buy the super expensive staples they might just get banned

[@KingdomsTV]

I’m going mostly proxies in my cedh decks at least. Maybe other decks too.

[@CrossMax122]

On the lands vs rocks thing. The thing is, lands give consistensy, where fast mana gives explosiveness. That's the thing. And lands are way more, so they appear more frequently at the table. Whereas, fast mana, they make the games way more inconsistent. That's what I think makes them different

[@KingdomsTV]

I agree. I wander trying to compare the two just the principle of using the best cards vs some thing else.

[@franciscosaltojusto7662]

Man, Jon is so sensible and good at explaining his arguments.

[@KingdomsTV]

Very true!

[@Jondstrong]

Thanks! I really appreciate it

[@nihonben]

Great video! What i dont understsnd is why does fast mana is considered by many as being "cedh" or too high power for casual? All players having great mana bases let players play the spells they want just faster. Instead of playing whatever jank combo on turn 12 it could be turn 8. Fast mana feels no different than having suboptimized lands etc.

[@KingdomsTV]

Exactly. Consitent ramp and the best ramp does the exact same thing and its harder to deal with too.

[@tommieboi707]

Everyone cancel all your pre orders and proxy everything. We the consumer got burned with this one. Imagine how many people would buy those sets if they knew that jlo and mana crypt was going to get banned. Im not spending a dime on collectors box anymore. They lost all trust. We need to send them a message.

[@KingdomsTV]

I’m having a hard time being excited about any eternal products too.

[@tendo339]

we should boycott wotc and now go for full proxy

[@KingdomsTV]

I might seriously go full proxy in my cedh decks.

[@richardsaunders7157]

It wasn't banned by wotc

[@brianbest7738]

100% Agree with Carlos, if banning these cards, then RC needs to be consistent with the bans across ALL cards. How can we trust and invest in cards like ancient tomb, mana vault, and other cards for commander when we have no idea if the RC just decides to ban. These cards are investment.

[@KingdomsTV]

I’m now nervously looking at anything of real value and trying to decide if I keep it or not. Not a fun place to be.

[@supersmashedbros90]

What’s the point of the rule zero conversation? I like how the RC says that the ban list is a suggestion, and that you can always rule zero these cards back in. But why is the philosophy not the other way around? Don’t ban anything and just have a conversation with your pod before the game. If someone lies then just don’t play with that person… I just hate bans personally.

[@KingdomsTV]

I totally agree. This is much better for creativity and maximum fun for all types of people.

[@supersmashedbros90]

@@KingdomsTV the more I read about this and listen to other podcast and opinions - I think this will make game play interesting still in cEDH. That’s my favorite format because you get to play all the busted cards in the format. I am nervous that with this ban you open the door to all the busted cards in EDH that make casual games “less fun” or creates “imbalance”. But those are the cards that are fun in cEDH…. I feel like I’m just ranting now lol

[@CptSaveABro808]

As a casual commander player with a few pre-cons and one personal brew, my biggest issue with these bans are the devaluation for collectors/card owners. Consumer trust issues much? As far as bans go, what stops people from continuing to use these cards or other “banned” ones that players have invested in? Isn’t it up to your pod/playgroup? Outside of WotC sponsored events (ban abiding), what real purpose does the RC, CAG serve? You already have the general rules/format guidelines. If you want to spend money and play with “high powered” decks, have at it. As long as everyone at the table knows/understands it, ie manages their expectations, then game on. Again, the devaluation part is just kinda crazy.

[@KingdomsTV]

If you open up the banned list to be played regularly, you must have an additional conversation every game. That’s not the end of the world, but the other hard thing is to try and define how powerful one banned card is vs another. It also affects card prices, which is a separate issue, but still relevant.

[@majesticclown]

The RC announced the watch list years ago, and they failed to add these cards to the watch list and announce these cards being added to that. They should have a ban list for Commander and REL EDH (cedh). If a format is competitive and there are events that LGS hosts and there are prizes, then there should be a format for that. I'm happy with the ban, but how it was executed was bad

[@KingdomsTV]

I’m fine with the ban except for Jeweled lotus. The other three make sense. I too am mostly unhappy with their inconsistency with bans overall.

[@fencingfireferret1188]

they should just go canadian highlander and do a points system

[@Veggie_Dogg]

Awesome video, everyone had a good point. Iv seriously seen so many people die to crypt roll, and become arch enemy because they had it, thus making them loose even faster (personally experience). Mind blowing they made all these people loose money like this. I didn’t even own one of these newly banned cards but my confidence as a consumer is definitely ehhhhhhhhh.

[@KingdomsTV]

It’s so out of the blue that it makes you nervous about putting any kind of real money in chase cards. I’m not very happy. At the very least I want them to be consistent. This middle ground is true worst place to be.

[@Veggie_Dogg]

@@KingdomsTV Totally, I have always wanted a one ring for a long time. I just feel like well it might be banned in the future and realistically might as well just pass on it.

[@justinb845]

Karakas should stay banned. A guy in my pod played it for a few games because he opened one in LOTR. Its insane to put a commander back into its owners hand every turn. Completely ruins voltron and other commander centric decks. We were talking about how disgusting it was for the format and looked it up on manabox for prices and printings only to discover it was already banned.

[@KingdomsTV]

I think the approach should be most cards are unbanned and your group decides if they should be played or vs they are banned and you decide if you can play them or not.

[@justinb845]

@@KingdomsTV absolutely. A "too strong for casual" list from the rules committee would have been a far better answer. Then I could decide what to play and my cards would have held their value.

[@QuicksilverSG]

They should rename it "The Pay-to-Won Ring".

[@KingdomsTV]

Just print it more! Give it out at fnm. Make a secret lair that is unlimited. So many ways to reduce the price of cards. They don’t want to though. They like having expensive cards.

[@TemperateTanks]

bans should not be tied to money even in the slightest

[@KingdomsTV]

Yup

[@fencingfireferret1188]

you're in the wrong format then. that's their initial reasoning for banning the colored moxes

[@TemperateTanks]

@@fencingfireferret1188 just because its there initial reason does not make it correct

[@TemperateTanks]

@@fencingfireferret1188 if the actual reason is because it makes the format 2 daunting to new players because of pricepoint thats another story i wouldnt be opposed to a hard line of say $100 secondary market price and everything above gets banned out

[@caspergarner]

I don't think promoting 4+ hour games for strangers in an LGS is going to make people drawn to commander. Esp when the veteran players tell them there's no point in investing in any new cards for the format lol

[@KingdomsTV]

Preach!

[@zandaman802]

Games can take 40 minutes without needing any of these cards. This isn't slowing down anything, just getting rid of cards that shouldn't be played at a casual level

[@caspergarner]

@@zandaman802 my very experienced commander playgroup takes 1 hour minimum games playing with precons even the new hyped up ones (unless someone gets a turn 1 sol ring) so while your idea is true in high power games i dont think it applies to strangers playing precons at the LGS. Not to disagree that these and other cards shouldn't be in casual bc i agree w you there, bur there is a place between mid power and cedh that i want to play these cards, and a whole lot of people (not including myself) just lost a few hundred to a few thousand dollars bc of a decision that could just be made by your playgroup or lgs with no financial impact

[@fencingfireferret1188]

"veteran players" playing their explosive turn 0 pubstomp plays are the ones chasing new players away from the format. these bans are a net positive and only held back by their half measure

[@stevendefeo8424]

It drew me closer. I don’t want to shuffle a 100 card deck after 3-6 turns. I absolutely love and encourage 2-4 hour games. They’re swingy and interactive

[@ryantalbot7714]

Do you think this will push people doing a no ban commander format?

[@KingdomsTV]

We are going to try our own called “Commander Unbound.” It won’t replace us playing regular commander but it will allow us to play more to the spirit of what I think commander should be. Commander Unbound Commander variant where the spirit of creativity and power level discussions reign. The spirit of commander is to be able to look at the entire catalog of Magic cards and to find big, complex, or explosive ways to play the game. It’s removed from the curated grind of 1v1 magic. In Commander Unbound the rule zero, power level, in game politics, and chance are vital. Initially you might be tempted to build the most powerful deck possible and you should try that out. However, eventually you will realize there is value in every power level and will build with different goals in mind. A permanent ban list focused only on cards that warp the game in an unusual way. No Ante, dexterity cards, power nine, some 1v1 cards, conspiracy card type, silver border or acorn logo, racist cards, and a few others the warp the game dramatically. Ban list Ancestral Recall Balance Black Lotus Channel Chaos Orb Falling Star Fastbond Limited Resources Mox Emerald Mox Jet Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Shahrazad Timetwister Time Vault Time Walk

[@mw3fanboy6]

@@ryantalbot7714 Imma nobody but I think 10000% this happens

[@mw3fanboy6]

Ion think it’ll work tho, you can’t just unban “some” cards, you’d have to unban ALL cards, sounds fun/funny at first until you realize what is banned and why exactly they’re banned

[@TheKindofTiredSleepCantFix]

Carlos is out of touch if he thinks most people have a normal Pod that they can talk to about and play with. This ban had to happen because Rule Zero isnt working and these cards have been becoming more ubiquitous in "casual" play.

[@KingdomsTV]

I said as much at the end. If most people are playing only with randoms at an lgs then maybe more bans are needed. I still want consistency with bans though.

[@_z3i]

Banning Mana Crypt instead of Sol Ring because Mana Crypt is more expensive is so sad. That just means that Wizards hasn’t printed Mana Crypt enough. Really it should be Sol Ring on the banlist because I would think that the amount of games broken by T1/T2 Sol Ring is vastly bigger than the ones broken by Mana Crypt. Also based on what Jim said about early notifying Wizards about the ban they’ve known this was coming for over a year. So them selling people on “the dream” of owning a Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus knowing the ban is coming is them heavily exploiting their customers in the most cynical way possible.

[@KingdomsTV]

If that’s true it’s really disingenuous of the RC and WOTC. I have to hope for negligence vs it being intentional.

[@bigtrevor30]

What about just banning Nadu as a commander but keeping it legal in the 99?

[@fencingfireferret1188]

a nadu in the 99 is one "Time of Need" away from 1 hour solitaire turns

[@KingdomsTV]

I’d love for banned as commander to be an option like in the past.

[@bigfoot_fpv]

But they have 10 plus precons that are scheduled to come out they all have sol rings in them 😂

[@KingdomsTV]

Replace it with a basic land ;)

[@mightyone3737]

If this is all gibberish I appologize, I'm a bit busy and can't proof it all! I think if you read it you'll get the gist. Part of the problem with cards that cost $200 is that unless it's a combo piece you're going to tutor up adding a single good card isn't very significant. People shouldn't be encouraged to play Mana Crypt in decks that aren't averaging $10 per card, it's way too swingy otherwise. I wouldn't be against banning 'proper' Fetches, but I'd do that as a Rule 0 thing, and I'd do it because I think the lands are too pricey and do too little in too many situations to justify costs well over $10 (if you've got ABUR Duals you should definitely use all the Fetches you can though), though if all I wanted was to stop people from blinging out their mana base I think a budget would work just as well, faster mana is WAY more expensive. I would be fine if they banned Sol Ring, but I also can see the RC wanting to have it around as a splashy showcase of the kind of power Commander has access to. Commander will still have faster games than Modern sometimes, but removing all these nutso speed boosting cards will only improve the game, leaving Sol Ring still allows you to have an impressive turn 2, but it's very hard to have a shocking turn 1 with Sol Ring compared to Mana Crypt (or Mana Vault in certain lists, but HOLY CRAP don't jump out and replace Mana Crypt with Mana Vault and expect it to work well, Vault only makes sense for explosive stuff). It's not like anyone was clamoring for Mox Diamond to get banned (I did see someone ask for it once, can't remember who), it's fast mana but it's card disadvantage so it's not going to create as many busted turn 1 or 2 game states. Going off turn 2 is infinitely worse than going off turn 1 in cEDH IMHO, and these bans help do that. I hate to say this, but it really feels like if Carlos wants to play with these cards he can find people to Rule 0 and do so, so the real issue seems like it would be the value lost? I remember being pretty pissed when the other card games I used to play lost their licenses, especially because whenever a game is about to tank they massively flood the market to milk out every drop from the whales. Anyways, banning high value cards will sting, but I totally feel like this is a band-aid scenario, where the faster and sooner they did it the better (they waited WAY too long to act, none of these cards were fun in the overwhelming majority of games). I disagree that people weren't playing Crypt and Lotus in decks that are presented as 7s, but there'll always be people who try to game their meta by building a slightly better deck. I feel like there will be a space out there for people to have another competing format finally, but the problem is that if you don't ban the busted stuff it becomes very hard to keep the card pool wide enough to keep the games interesting, any format trying to compete will have to thread to needle that Commander/EDH couldn't, let people have access to all their toys while somehow keeping them from bullying one another with them. I don't think I'd agree that Rhystic Study is as problematic as Mana Crypt, one of the reasons Mana Crypt was SO GOOD in cEDH was that a Blue deck could technically mulligan for a dual and Study and play them turn 1, if you go first this could easily win the game by itself, even if you've mulliganed away most of your hand... but the thing is this, if you ban Rhystic Study there are other cards that Crypt can accelerate and create problems (though probably not as big of problems I'll admit), turn 1 Rhystic Study is great, but turn 2 Smothering Tithe is ALSO pretty great. I'd like to see an official short list of cards that the RC is considering; they do talk about it here and there, but if they're going to ban cards worth serious money they should look hard at warning people in some way that such a thing could happen. Heck, I'd love to have such a list from WotC, it's nice to know which cards in a cycle are going to be printed into the basement and which are going to be cultivated carefully, yes 95% of the time it's just the good cards that aren't reprinted, but sometimes they do reprint a good card. I'm not even sure it's just about Crypt and Lotus raising your raw power level, you end up having insane games sometimes in decks that usually don't do as much, it's not a recipe for fun to have whole ghost peppers lurking in it, and while people might want to have access to them, it's probably reasonable to just make the default that we ban the dangerous stuff that risks ruining people's games when they show up? The thing is if one guy runs too many pushed cards not only is it annoying to lose more often to them, it's not even a sign of good deck building, and they certianly make a deck more boring, why even allow it? Carlos talks about how people play in pods often, but if you're all relatively new players having a proactive banlist is an asset. Don't ban Thoracle, but I agree people shouldn't run it in anything below an 8 (and probably an 8 it's not fun for anyone involved, I think you could argue that it's more of a cEDH card). I want to see Emrakul unbanned, we need the Big Girl in Commander! I think most or all of what Carlos wants unbanned is probably reasonable, I'm just not sure how much they'll matter (they're all crummy feeling cards to lose to, but we're allowed to run Insurrection so idk, that's like 'each opponent gets kicked in the nuts by their own army until they die'). Carlos, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm VERY SURE they based this on huge amounts of data, data they likely get from WotC because the two cooperate openly. Their write up explaining why they banned these cards makes it pretty clear that they're using data, I'm not sure how their write up could otherwise make sense.

[@KingdomsTV]

I’d love it if they made this choice on data. They should share that data with us too. Also I said the price of cards is a separate issue then what and how they banned cards. If mana crypt was the same price as sol ring and I’d still feel the same way. You can’t tell us you want to get rid of explosive early turns and not get rid of sol ring too. I’m literally editing our duskmourn game right now now where one of the players gets an early sol ring and rockers ahead of the rest of us. It becomes a bit of a feel bad as we all have to unite together to fight them. That’s not fun for anyone as one person gets ganged up on and the others have to make sub optimal plays to stay alive. Personally I’ve had that experience with sol ring vs mana crypt 10x more often. Mainly because we already play mana crypt a lot less then sol ring as we self regulate.

[@Synced_OW]

I would love to play commander on mtgo but you cant even guarantee a game doesn't crash.

[@KingdomsTV]

Every way has its pros and cons

[@kappachino726]

I love the bans and I've wanted the RC to get off their content creator cheeks and DO SOMETHING for a long time. I don't care if it has a price tag, it's fair game. 100% agree on the consistency aspect - I WISH they had the balls to ban Sol Ring. Banning the cards was fine - EVERYTHING else has been embarrassing honestly. Community crying, CAG members announcing their resignation, RC namedropping who among them was "fighting for the people!" Over FOUR CARDS! Cringes me out and makes me feel like I'm a part of the most casual consumerist format there is (I am).

[@KingdomsTV]

👍

[@kappachino726]

​@@KingdomsTV Carlos, how do you think the RC will respond? Do they see this crazy reaction and go full head-in-the-sand, no more bans and all Rule 0 for years again? What if they DO want to look at The One Ring or Sol Ring etc. but are now second guessing taking any action too soon or at all? I personally don't want an RC that is afraid to curate the format.

[@KingdomsTV]

I don't know how they are taking this. I do think they need to have a watch list so that people can make an educated decision and decide if a chase card is worth having multiples of. Moving forward I am not going to have more than one, maybe two of any high value non-reserved list card so that I don't get sucker punched again. Fool me once...

[@hulud]

There's an easy fix, just ignore the ban.

[@KingdomsTV]

It’s a group decision at that point: it’s messy

[@hulud]

@@KingdomsTV Not if we all collectively just say "F-this I'm playing my cards." What are they gonna do, kick everyone out of an lgs, no store would survive that. We all just need to come together on this. I don't even own these cards and it annoys me.

[@supersmashedbros90]

Does anyone think this is going to push cEDH to create their own RC? I know there was a push last month and it fell apart, but in light of these bans - I think it’s worth reconsidering.

[@KingdomsTV]

I doubt it, but I don’t think it would be bad.

[@TheTalladega238]

If they want to be creative then get rid of EDHREC where new players go to get help building decks and most of the time cut and paste cards into their decks.

[@KingdomsTV]

Net decking has always been a thing in magic and other card games since the internet became popular. I like unique creative decks too though.

[@TheTalladega238]

You're right but their argument is creative deck building so why not go after that too?

[@jancarloaquino4248]

yeah fuck new players and stop them from having helpful sites for deck building. Overwhelm the new players with how big the card pool edh has and make them read each singular card one at a time to know if they synergize or not.

[@TheKindofTiredSleepCantFix]

No Wizards should absolutely not take over the RC. The format would become even more toxic and soft rotating that it already is, just like Modern.

[@KingdomsTV]

You are probably right. It would be predictable tho…

[@jessypalacios9560]

Leave sol ring alone😂

[@KingdomsTV]

Haha, it makes for a pretty bad game experience if a deck can take advantage of it well enough.

[@Jhihadi]

Only a sith thinks in absolutes

[@KingdomsTV]

You underestimate my power!

[@fortek13]

I'll comment just on one point: If you think WtoC will do better job at curating EDH than you must be mad. They are the ones who created those cards ALONG with Nadu. If you think they would be able to ban Dockside for example, where he is selling pack BECAUSE of it's actual money value... I don't know what to tell you.

[@KingdomsTV]

What about how they do with other formats? Do you disagree with how they ban in modern or legacy?

[@fortek13]

@@KingdomsTV take a closer look at what other format players are saying and how bans in those formats are being done for last few years. THey stay their hand from banning chase cards as much as they can (or are not banning them at all). They do maintain other formats (somehow) but those other formats have tournaments and more "public" exposure than EDH. EDH for them is simple money grab, there's no way we would see any actually impactful bans if expensive cards would be involved. Even Gavin wouldn't be able to do that. They took over Pauper but there is no real money in that so they can actually manage it well. How can they ban The One Ring? They can't. RC can. They still needs to think about WotC in their actions, sure but they still are able to cureat format for real - at the same time, that is exactly the reason they cannot ban Sol Ring, unfortunately. WotC wouldn't stand for it and would take EDH over completely. (Ofc, all of that is based only on my opinion and view on this situation.)

[@claudeducharme007]

Ya don’t give all control to the greedy corporation

[@KingdomsTV]

True...

[@TwentyOneBrians]

Sol ring being $1 and in 99% of decks is their argument and it's not flimsy. Rule 0 is your solution to, "RC needs ban consistency" The RC has, and always will be, completely irrelevant to how your pod plays EDH

[@KingdomsTV]

I disagree. Most players don’t fule zero banned cards very often. If they do it’s usually for a specific reason and everyone is doing it. Like unbanned crazy powerful decks or going a nephilim as a commander because there are not many 4 color options etc.

[@sethvoNhaNdorf]

ban ancient tomb and chrome mox

[@KingdomsTV]

😅

[@eeriecandle]

"Though"

[@KingdomsTV]

Tuff? Tough? Not sure what you’re referencing.

[@Slimjimm281]

That’s what you get for investing in cards. I never spend more than 20€ on a card and I am sooo happy that this ban doesn’t effect me at all xD

[@KingdomsTV]

This can happen to anyone in any sphere. Housing market crash, stock market crash, currency lows, car crashes, controversies, all kinds of things can cause peoples property to lose value and it’s not very enjoyable when it happens to you. Especially when there is not a good reason.

[@Vorisk]

1st. Wizards owe you nothing for the secondary market. What you lose or gain is on you . The money value of the cards should not be taken into consideration for bans. 2nd. in my local play the amount of times the table lost to a player with mana crypt vs sol ring is alot, because there is more options after the play. Play a land sol ring , unless you have a colorless drop you are done. land mana crypt still leaves you with alot of plays. 3rd. you said the best reason for the ban WE ALL have sol ring ,that play could have happened cause the card is in your deck. Not all have MC, JL, or dockside. If I didnt proxy them I would never had played them. Now do I feel bad for those that went out and spent money on these? Absolutely but thats a gamble for any card . But limiting the most common ramp compared to the more expensive ramp is not good for the game. This move helps the new players, can not tell you how crappy it feels to play and some drops a $200 dollar card that wins the game. I personally think they should have banned Nadu and Dockside and waited on the others, but in my time of playing (came back to the game in neon dynasty ) I have lost to dockside one time, lost to a player playing MC and JW alot more.

[@polbertiom1540]

1st point: really? if they don't owe us anything for the secondary market? OK, so why do you think they have used all 4 of these cards as incentives for you to buy their products? 2nd point: what if some of us like faster games?

[@Vorisk]

@@polbertiom1540 They put them in there because they are popular for people and it sells booster packs and their product . The secondary market is not their product .They get no money from secondary market sales. You like faster games great , rule zero them in for your group. But a new player has no access to these expensive cards right away and wont know what they are to rule out. So let the high power interaction not be a common thing and a more special one.

[@KingdomsTV]

The cost of a card and being consistent with why you ban cards should not be connected imo.

[@Vorisk]

@@KingdomsTV I do see your issue with how they explained it. Me personally saw it as this: I dont consider sol ring "fast mana", and this is a me thing I get that, fast mana is a over a plus 1. like sol ring cost 1 and provides only a plus 1. Mana crypt is a instant plus 3 , free to cast free to tap for 2 mana with little to no down side. I did not like that they put in a 5 mana scenario because that is not a realistic hand 100% of the time , I would say a hand anywhere near that is below 10%, but dont take my word for cause I made up those numbers. I just look at single value, a free drop that nets two mana in any deck no restrictions is abit over value. Now this would open the door to how much value is to high value for the format ? I think is a great conversation to have. Now do i agree 100% with the mana crypt and JL no , but am I upset , also no. But I also never had them in decks I actually played.

[@KingdomsTV]

Personally "fast mana" is anything that gives more than it costs. So Moxes and Mana crypt cost zero and give one or two. Sol ring, mana vault, and grim monolith cost one or two and give two or three. They "ramp" you the turn they come out which is typically better than most land ramp or other mana rocks. They are a relic of the past (outside of JL) and only ever live in non standard formats for a reason. Or if they do exist (mos opal, chrome mox, mox amber) then they have a pretty big downside to balance them. I think commader is the best place for these and really the only place as all other formats can take way more advantage of them when you only have one opponent and can get so far ahead of them.

[@jupiteru]

no

[@KingdomsTV]

Aight