Welp. This aged well hahaha. Still not changing dice mid roll tho.

What’s the point of the rule zero conversation? I like how the RC says that the ban list is a suggestion, and that you can always rule zero these cards back in. But why is the philosophy not the other way around? Don’t ban anything and just have a conversation with your pod before the game. If someone lies then just don’t play with that person… I just hate bans personally.

Does anyone think this is going to push cEDH to create their own RC? I know there was a push last month and it fell apart, but in light of these bans - I think it’s worth reconsidering.

"Though"

I love the bans and I've wanted the RC to get off their content creator cheeks and DO SOMETHING for a long time. I don't care if it has a price tag, it's fair game. 100% agree on the consistency aspect - I WISH they had the balls to ban Sol Ring. Banning the cards was fine - EVERYTHING else has been embarrassing honestly. Community crying, CAG members announcing their resignation, RC namedropping who among them was "fighting for the people!" Over FOUR CARDS! Cringes me out and makes me feel like I'm a part of the most casual consumerist format there is (I am).

ban ancient tomb and chrome mox

What about just banning Nadu as a commander but keeping it legal in the 99?

Sol ring being $1 and in 99% of decks is their argument and it's not flimsy. Rule 0 is your solution to, "RC needs ban consistency" The RC has, and always will be, completely irrelevant to how your pod plays EDH

Carlos is out of touch if he thinks most people have a normal Pod that they can talk to about and play with. This ban had to happen because Rule Zero isnt working and these cards have been becoming more ubiquitous in "casual" play.

If this is all gibberish I appologize, I'm a bit busy and can't proof it all! I think if you read it you'll get the gist. Part of the problem with cards that cost $200 is that unless it's a combo piece you're going to tutor up adding a single good card isn't very significant. People shouldn't be encouraged to play Mana Crypt in decks that aren't averaging $10 per card, it's way too swingy otherwise. I wouldn't be against banning 'proper' Fetches, but I'd do that as a Rule 0 thing, and I'd do it because I think the lands are too pricey and do too little in too many situations to justify costs well over $10 (if you've got ABUR Duals you should definitely use all the Fetches you can though), though if all I wanted was to stop people from blinging out their mana base I think a budget would work just as well, faster mana is WAY more expensive. I would be fine if they banned Sol Ring, but I also can see the RC wanting to have it around as a splashy showcase of the kind of power Commander has access to. Commander will still have faster games than Modern sometimes, but removing all these nutso speed boosting cards will only improve the game, leaving Sol Ring still allows you to have an impressive turn 2, but it's very hard to have a shocking turn 1 with Sol Ring compared to Mana Crypt (or Mana Vault in certain lists, but HOLY CRAP don't jump out and replace Mana Crypt with Mana Vault and expect it to work well, Vault only makes sense for explosive stuff). It's not like anyone was clamoring for Mox Diamond to get banned (I did see someone ask for it once, can't remember who), it's fast mana but it's card disadvantage so it's not going to create as many busted turn 1 or 2 game states. Going off turn 2 is infinitely worse than going off turn 1 in cEDH IMHO, and these bans help do that. I hate to say this, but it really feels like if Carlos wants to play with these cards he can find people to Rule 0 and do so, so the real issue seems like it would be the value lost? I remember being pretty pissed when the other card games I used to play lost their licenses, especially because whenever a game is about to tank they massively flood the market to milk out every drop from the whales. Anyways, banning high value cards will sting, but I totally feel like this is a band-aid scenario, where the faster and sooner they did it the better (they waited WAY too long to act, none of these cards were fun in the overwhelming majority of games). I disagree that people weren't playing Crypt and Lotus in decks that are presented as 7s, but there'll always be people who try to game their meta by building a slightly better deck. I feel like there will be a space out there for people to have another competing format finally, but the problem is that if you don't ban the busted stuff it becomes very hard to keep the card pool wide enough to keep the games interesting, any format trying to compete will have to thread to needle that Commander/EDH couldn't, let people have access to all their toys while somehow keeping them from bullying one another with them. I don't think I'd agree that Rhystic Study is as problematic as Mana Crypt, one of the reasons Mana Crypt was SO GOOD in cEDH was that a Blue deck could technically mulligan for a dual and Study and play them turn 1, if you go first this could easily win the game by itself, even if you've mulliganed away most of your hand... but the thing is this, if you ban Rhystic Study there are other cards that Crypt can accelerate and create problems (though probably not as big of problems I'll admit), turn 1 Rhystic Study is great, but turn 2 Smothering Tithe is ALSO pretty great. I'd like to see an official short list of cards that the RC is considering; they do talk about it here and there, but if they're going to ban cards worth serious money they should look hard at warning people in some way that such a thing could happen. Heck, I'd love to have such a list from WotC, it's nice to know which cards in a cycle are going to be printed into the basement and which are going to be cultivated carefully, yes 95% of the time it's just the good cards that aren't reprinted, but sometimes they do reprint a good card. I'm not even sure it's just about Crypt and Lotus raising your raw power level, you end up having insane games sometimes in decks that usually don't do as much, it's not a recipe for fun to have whole ghost peppers lurking in it, and while people might want to have access to them, it's probably reasonable to just make the default that we ban the dangerous stuff that risks ruining people's games when they show up? The thing is if one guy runs too many pushed cards not only is it annoying to lose more often to them, it's not even a sign of good deck building, and they certianly make a deck more boring, why even allow it? Carlos talks about how people play in pods often, but if you're all relatively new players having a proactive banlist is an asset. Don't ban Thoracle, but I agree people shouldn't run it in anything below an 8 (and probably an 8 it's not fun for anyone involved, I think you could argue that it's more of a cEDH card). I want to see Emrakul unbanned, we need the Big Girl in Commander! I think most or all of what Carlos wants unbanned is probably reasonable, I'm just not sure how much they'll matter (they're all crummy feeling cards to lose to, but we're allowed to run Insurrection so idk, that's like 'each opponent gets kicked in the nuts by their own army until they die'). Carlos, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm VERY SURE they based this on huge amounts of data, data they likely get from WotC because the two cooperate openly. Their write up explaining why they banned these cards makes it pretty clear that they're using data, I'm not sure how their write up could otherwise make sense.

No Wizards should absolutely not take over the RC. The format would become even more toxic and soft rotating that it already is, just like Modern.

bans should not be tied to money even in the slightest

As a casual commander player with a few pre-cons and one personal brew, my biggest issue with these bans are the devaluation for collectors/card owners. Consumer trust issues much? As far as bans go, what stops people from continuing to use these cards or other “banned” ones that players have invested in? Isn’t it up to your pod/playgroup? Outside of WotC sponsored events (ban abiding), what real purpose does the RC, CAG serve? You already have the general rules/format guidelines. If you want to spend money and play with “high powered” decks, have at it. As long as everyone at the table knows/understands it, ie manages their expectations, then game on. Again, the devaluation part is just kinda crazy.

Everyone cancel all your pre orders and proxy everything. We the consumer got burned with this one. Imagine how many people would buy those sets if they knew that jlo and mana crypt was going to get banned. Im not spending a dime on collectors box anymore. They lost all trust. We need to send them a message.

These were bans i had no issues with. But the problem for the RC is they can advise wizards on cards that wont be liked all they want. Wizards care only about profit. They dont care about what the edh player thinks is fair or not fair. Or the modern player. Or the standard player. They just want more money in their pockets. Which puts the RC in a tough spot. Cause they were blasted for not doing anything. And now we get what we wanted to a degree and its still wrong. Tough spot for them

this is why i proxy i dont loose money and wizards does not get too much of my money. commander and cEDH are not official play like modern and standard so just dont buy the super expensive staples they might just get banned

There's an easy fix, just ignore the ban.

While I do understand the bans, they are late to the edh table, and definitely incomplete as well as inconsistent. I think for it to be logical and make sense, the entire ban list requires a complete overhaul. On a side note, I don't think edh is a competitive "format". I used to play Cedh, and recently sold out a little over a month ago because I realized over time what edh truly is, a casual silly format. I know Cedh players and content creators present cedh as a mystical hyper competitive format, however, cedh really is just an over inflated seeming sub-section of commander. If cedh advocates want to separate themselves and make a new "format" by all means, go ahead. The inevitable dilemma I predict is yes, cedh can become it's own format but the barrier to entry will be extremely high, and the problem of who will support that fringe group as far as tourneys and prize support? Anyway, my thought is commander is casual at best, and should have its banlist revamped for health and balance keeping the mindset of the casual nature. If you want to compete in Mtg then play a 60 card format, sorry not sorry.

Leave sol ring alone😂

Man, Jon is so sensible and good at explaining his arguments.

The RC has always danced around the arbitrary nature of the ban list by saying the cards on it are examples of types of cards your group might want to exclude. I’ve never thought it should be a banned list but more of a warning to proceed with caution list.

1st. Wizards owe you nothing for the secondary market. What you lose or gain is on you . The money value of the cards should not be taken into consideration for bans. 2nd. in my local play the amount of times the table lost to a player with mana crypt vs sol ring is alot, because there is more options after the play. Play a land sol ring , unless you have a colorless drop you are done. land mana crypt still leaves you with alot of plays. 3rd. you said the best reason for the ban WE ALL have sol ring ,that play could have happened cause the card is in your deck. Not all have MC, JL, or dockside. If I didnt proxy them I would never had played them. Now do I feel bad for those that went out and spent money on these? Absolutely but thats a gamble for any card . But limiting the most common ramp compared to the more expensive ramp is not good for the game. This move helps the new players, can not tell you how crappy it feels to play and some drops a $200 dollar card that wins the game. I personally think they should have banned Nadu and Dockside and waited on the others, but in my time of playing (came back to the game in neon dynasty ) I have lost to dockside one time, lost to a player playing MC and JW alot more.

I salute the consistency take o7

Karakas should stay banned. A guy in my pod played it for a few games because he opened one in LOTR. Its insane to put a commander back into its owners hand every turn. Completely ruins voltron and other commander centric decks. We were talking about how disgusting it was for the format and looked it up on manabox for prices and printings only to discover it was already banned.

I don't think promoting 4+ hour games for strangers in an LGS is going to make people drawn to commander. Esp when the veteran players tell them there's no point in investing in any new cards for the format lol

Only a sith thinks in absolutes

The RC announced the watch list years ago, and they failed to add these cards to the watch list and announce these cards being added to that. They should have a ban list for Commander and REL EDH (cedh). If a format is competitive and there are events that LGS hosts and there are prizes, then there should be a format for that. I'm happy with the ban, but how it was executed was bad