Is PVP As Dire As You Think It Is in Destiny 2?

Has Destiny 2 Crucible PVP lost its magic? Is it as bad as you think or even as it feels? It's time to do an end of season checkup on PVP and see where we're sitting and think about where we could go from here.
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[@doctorfuss]

If PvP matches dropped loot like Onslaught did I’d be playing it way more

[@jonnysilia5740]

yep, just bribe us to eat a shitty meta.

[@hadrielstriker]

True

[@WrenchNumbers]

Back in D1, god roll weapons would drop from matches like Eyasluna, Matador and Yf Longbow. Maybe have PVP and some PVE weapons that are actually good drop from matches you might see some increase in the player base.

[@anthobee]

Whatever is happening in PVP doesn’t inspire me to play. I don’t think I’m alone in this

[@shade_steppa]

I can't put my finger on it. Whether I have a good or a bad game, its the same lackluster feeling after every match. Just doesn't hit the same anymore. I used to able to play for at least an hour 2 straight of PvP but now it's like 3-4 matches and I have brain rot.

[@AlonzoL32]

Man I feel the same way. I used to play pvp for hours but I get bored so fast now. Not sure if it’s the lack of good rewards or the meta but something about it just can’t hold my interest for more than a few games.

[@mustangthearpy]

I'm with ya

[@TheMax107]

Imo it's the checkmate changes it makes it much more boring.

[@YYuuf]

#metoo

[@Bubbagaming69420]

As a PVE main the times I have fun in PVP are when it is just casual fun things like Iron Banner where it doesn't really matter if you win or lose. I play PVP for the loot so anything that gives me more loot would be welcome. The least fun I have in PVP is in trials because it feels like a constant stomp fest with barely any loot to show for it. My solution? 1 guaranteed trials weapon drop every round regardless of a win and a card that starts on a loss but has the max win streak bonus.

[@peegeeop4513]

I literally internally scream Everytime I see the enemy team full of conditional finality. Like....are you serious my guy

[@rhyshuber9981]

They gotta get that kd as high as possible in the uncompetitive space shooter📢📢

[@peegeeop4513]

@@rhyshuber9981 while I'm just trying to think of new innovative builds for all things warlock to keep my ADHD happy

[@rhyshuber9981]

@@peegeeop4513 literally me in titan lmao💀

[@jamaledwards8118]

Conditional finality is not that serious....

[@peegeeop4513]

@@jamaledwards8118 if it wasn't then why does it have the most used energy weapon since it's release outside of random forerunner spam weekends

[@kthmiles]

I all but stopped suffering through PVP this season. Have not had fun in that mode in quite awhile

[@Brian-ch6hg]

lol I love intervention-mode TV. It’s the full-time sweats and the lobby unbalancing that have me relaxing in other games right now.

[@hunter730bayles4]

I don't know if it's just my matchmaking, but my lobbies have been absolutely terrible! I'm currently ranked Plat II as I barely play survival yet the majority of my casual control games are sweatier than comp/trials. Over the past week of me playing, over 3/4 of my games have ended in either a mercy or with half of either team leaving halfway through the match. I get killed by the same weapon in every engagement, Igneous Hammer or Luna's Howl, I just want to go into control and try out new pvp weapons, but if I dare try that I will guaranteed be in the negative. Special weapons and abilities have become rampant once again too, I end up getting killed more from grenade/melee spams than a gun play, not to mention the snowballing effect that special ammo regeneration presents. On the other side of things, the "balancing" of lobbies with "the first best going to one team, the second best (or next best two, I can't remember) going to the other...", so on and so forth, all this does is makes the majority of my games glorified 1 vs 1's; the majority of my games end with two players being well above positive (sometimes in the tens for their Kd's), and the rest barely above a 1.0 if not negative. In most cases when I'm top fragging or end up winning a game, its because I'm the person in the glorified 1 vs 1 and end up putting others in the exact same spot, just like you said. I understand the argument of "Get Good" as I often preach it myself. I have worked hard over the past few expansions to get better in crucible and learn how to play engagements, how to move around and play cover/revive's, and everything else, and I've been able to raise my seasonal Kda from being around a 1.3, to the past two season being above a 2.0 Kda, with my best average being a 2.4. With the current matchmaking, I can only go so far when I play on a team with players that don't know how to play together and don't know how to take on engagements, I'm just tired of it but yet I keep playing hoping it will get better. What's the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results? Because that's what my crucible experience has slowly become.

[@Sliq_tv]

The issue with measuring skill for lobby balancing is that people are not mathematical figures. Sometimes they play well and sometimes they play poorly. Even on professional sports there are blowouts. There are multitudes of factors to take into account for whether or not someone will perform well in a match and it’s difficult to account for all of them while also considering connection and queue times.

[@TheOldOwl8]

Yeah but at the same token you can tell pretty easily that some players are "typically" at the higher end of the skill gap, to be fully honest every argument against skill based match making just boils down to Sweat Lords don't want to face other try hard Sweat Lords and just want as many bs pub stomps as possible.

[@BotFisherman]

Absolutely true. The way I've always approached pvp is being off-meta. Sure, the meta guns can be strong and overpowering, but I find them boring and cookie cutter. How am I gonna be engaged with a player, or match for that matter, if everyone uses Conditional Finality and Igneous Hammer with every warlock running transversive/Ophidian and every hunter running Stompees? I like the variety of playstyles from different players, when the meta becomes so overwhelming that it drowns out other people's specific builds, players just become Stompees Hunter#456 or Solar Warlock#783

[@Kumari_44]

@@TheOldOwl8this is actually soooooo true! They’re soo good at the game… but so bad at the game that they cant compete against people of their own skill level. So they want easy matches to destroy players lower than them to feel good. What they dont understand is that you *cannot* divorce difficulty from high skill. Difficultly comes with the territory whether they like it or not. That means no more kill streaks. No more 40+ bombs. No more epic plays. No more high KDs. No more looking like you’re a god amongst peasants. No more super easy games. And thats why alot of the main pvp streamers use vpn’s to sneak and cheat their way into bot lobbies just to get super easy games that look good on KZbin. 🤣 they’re losers.

[@TheOldOwl8]

@@Kumari_44 You can try and mock me but I am right, Sweat lords always hate playing other Sweat Lords why do you think they always bitch and moan that SBMM should be removed from everything? Why is it that the average and the casual enjoy and ask for it but the no life meta humping sweats always pitch a fit and demand it be removed?

[@MaxSmith-sl8ng]

Oh look its the guy who messages racial things after he losses games nice to see you @sliq

[@Bg1997mx]

Bagging all the iggy and conditional stans after i kill them with Cerberus+1 is what keeps me coming back

[@ratgator]

2021 me losing my shit we eating good with the focus fire buff

[@taylormorgan3669]

I just got bagged by one of those while I was using erianas and claws of ahamkara

[@literallynobody1515]

based af

[@manueltorresnunez1154]

I do the same but using two year 1 sidearms, i love to see teams of virgins using meta, ugly ass weapons while running away from an old cod player with 2 pistols that do the exact same😂😂

[@Saint_Roscoe]

10:20 TV was spitting facts. I loved hearing that cause I’ve felt the same way. The guys who can’t put down the meta are dependent on it. They have to run it everywhere. The game isn’t fun if they aren’t stomping. They are also the first people to back out of a match if it starts to go the other way. Get’em, TV!

[@literallynobody1515]

What meta crutches do to a mf. They're fundamentally bad at PvP so they have to crutch OP, skilless strats/weapons. I fought a guy who started losing after sweating his balls off, tbagged me, then quit mid-game to protect his K/D and win-rate lmao. People are losers and need to touch grass and reevaluate their priorities. His name was Gabyota#3051 btw. Invisibility + Chaperone + Igneous crutches Hunter. He had every meta crutch in the book and still got bodied lmao. I made sure to clip it to laugh at him.

[@literallynobody1515]

@@MrMultiPlatform lmao who tf are you, bro is LOST

[@Commanderflynn]

Can agree with the point at 9:00 - I've stopped wanting to play PVP because I'm constantly getting bad matchups. I know I'm not great at the PVP side of the game, but I'm finding it really rough, the times when I do try to dip my toes into it, to learn and improve when I'm stomped so thoroughly that I'm wishing for the Final Shape to be enacted to save me from the torment.

[@Kreau]

You'd be calcified with someone's guardian squatting in your corpse.

[@Commanderflynn]

@@Kreau ....that's actually kinda horrifying that I want to retract my statement 🤣

[@OSTATEboi419]

​@@thebryanmyersthe bottom line is people just don't like getting stomped regardless of what it's by.

[@Commanderflynn]

@@OSTATEboi419 see, I don't think that's totally the case. I'm getting my ass handed to me in the fighting games I'm learning, but I'm aware of the curve for them, plus I can easily go back and learn what to do differently. It's hard to know how to be better in D2 outside of better aim and maybe learning how to build for pvp instead of pve

[@EtotheFnD]

Not gonna lie...im out here grindin for shiny guns...🤷‍♂️

[@samcraig6031]

I've been going through and cleaning my vault very slowly, trying "new" weapons (good to god rolls that have been sitting in my vault for a year...) and I remember a time where I used to love doing that. Seeing what craziness I can get up to with this new stable like a lazer roll, or this outlaw kill clip sidearm... That fun has left in the past several years. I'm average at best and can keep a 1 or so k/d messing around, but if(when) I get in a super sweaty lobby, it doesn't even feel like that weapon I'm testing to see how it performs (or how much fun it is) can keep up with the meta, even after a day of putting in the work to try and get used to its quirks.

[@dylansimanski5735]

This is a comment on the video

[@jackroberts8468]

Indeed it is

[@Felwinters.Lie69]

This is a reply to the comment.

[@Nitious-Loki]

This is a comment to your reply on the comment on this video​@@Felwinters.Lie69

[@itsLeels]

@@Felwinters.Lie69this is a reply to the reply of the comment.

[@pici7826]

@@itsLeels This is the reply for the reply of the reply of the comment leaving a thumbs up.

[@ballislife]

I’ve stayed away from watching pvp videos and been loving PVP for the past 4 weeks. So seeing this video title was def a shock. Is it really that bad? The new territory mode has been super fun

[@KingZ120]

No fucking way I find ballislife on a destiny 2 comment section about pvp

[@adambonanno9908]

@@KingZ120😂fr bro

[@ballislife]

@@KingZ120 get used to it.. been a player since D1 day 1

[@KingZ120]

@@ballislife nah I just didn’t expected it lol no hate brodi

[@spikespiegel2378]

I feel so weak in pvp, everyone seems to one shot me and I do no damage to them. My internet is always good.

[@Awfully_good]

I gotta say I have been noticing that it’s been getting more sweaty and I have run into a ton of lagging opponents more than before

[@hotzauhse]

The lag started getting more noticeable since the free update

[@Awfully_good]

@@hotzauhsebro right?

[@johnkeyes9482]

tbh I recently started playing trials for some god rolls in pve and I feel like it has been less sweaty than the first time I tried it seasons ago, might just because I'm on a flawed card

[@Awfully_good]

@@johnkeyes9482 oh I have no issues with Trials bro but when I’m trying to relax in QP that’s when it gets real sweaty lmao

[@yk156560]

@@Awfully_good True. I'm glad that you guys are not in Asia server, what a mess down here.

[@masony666]

Only pop on for my destiny pvp fix. Been stuck on an aggressive lightweight bow playstyle. Was the highlight of my day to go against you out of my random play sessions. Made my whole day.

[@Palayedeuhm]

7:14 this snipe was dirty af 💀

[@Homedoceu7]

I stopped playing pvp and my life improved.

[@kbj686]

A lot of good stuff here. As a casual PvP player, dead center bell curve skill (I hope?), I think the lack of chase is the #1 drag, with a #2 being "it's not fun to get on a losing streak." For #1: The rep I flipped most this long ass season was IB (6 times?) because I wanted a good multimach and a tusk, plus there is some fun armor, and the best earnable shaders are always on second reset. A good way to avoid brutal stompings would be to have a larger pool, and to your point, I think constricting the modes would increase the pool. Maybe have game modes rotate hourly so there is one 6, one 3, and one comp mode running at a time.

[@crescentjester]

I've just been trying to have fun with The Prophet. Trying to master that hipfire fantasy with the legendary. It's super fun. I just got a godroll 6/6 (for me) Igneous Hammer as my first time ever getting Adept Igneous, and I've only used it for 2 matches. Yes it's a monster, but I really like weapons on the fun side. Also, the only non-cringe shotguns are slugs. They feel way more rewarding than any other shotgun.

[@dragonj2016]

The main issue for me is honestly just how terrible it feels to fight against half of the subclasses we have, while half of them may not be op or even considered great, getting killed by something like a stasis well, fighting some titan just for him to pop barricade and basically be at full health again with his overshield, or getting snaring slammed by a hunter from basically the skybox all just feel terrible to fight against, even worse honestly than dying to the same weapons over and over again. That and the new special ammo system and damage of a lot of our primary weapons are why I personally quit PvP and part of why it feels so bad trying to get back into it.

[@justinschmidt9231]

I have played with some old friends some life long friends and now some new friends because this season and hype-train toward the final shape has them all going nuts. Crucible has been really fun too. Most games are pretty close and sometimes i see my gamertag on the top. I am an above average guardian being a beta veteran. I have taken breaks in the past, But right now is not one of them. New Maps in trials, fun meta shifts. Its a great time for me and my friends personally in destiny. If you are board or tired of the same old weapons switch it up. Heck switch up your class, be a warlock if you main hunter. Try a crayon eater if you like to go punch stuff. Just have fun, And we have what looks to be a very cool expansion ahead of us. :)

[@EtotheFnD]

Is I.W. Harper 12 year bourbon as smooth as i say it is? Tune into the Dramguard to find out

[@Drkloki-pb3ym]

I started playing destiny when the very first alpha came out on Xbox 360. Hugely into pvp all through d1 and d2. Ive went flawless more times then I can count, completed so so so many raids. Haven’t played destiny in about a year and a half. Don’t feel the need to play anymore and honestly feel better now that I’m not stressed to get on a video games every Tuesday and Friday

[@Daemonic6]

In my opinion problems with PVP: 1) Maps: A lot of garbage maps which need to get rid of, cause a lot of ppl just leaving when see them. 2) Matchmaking: Now matchmaking is sucks, when system arrange noobies in your team and against you "pro" players who kills when you even don't see him and most of them with sweaty loadouts, laggers, just hell of cheaters. 3) Rewards: Need provide with a reward for playing, new cool guns, ornaments, high stat armor etc. 4) Connection to already running match: This system need to change when system connect you in running match need provide with some super energy and special ammo or just don't connect.

[@jasonweston5687]

Okay my experience with PVP is the following. Firstly the lobby balancing is just terrible, the amount of wins I get compared to stomped matches is terrible. I'm a PS main so playing against Xbox users usually guarantees that I will be one shot to every weapon they have. I could litterally push a whole clip from a hand cannon into a play for them to turn round and one shot me with the same weapon. The hit detection is woefull as well, I suffer from ADHD as well so the moment the games don't give me any reward or satisfaction for my playtime I'm out. So I usually play PVP in bouts and then I stop for a while. I've played trials, never been flawless but just seems everytime I get one or two wins then I get 3 to 4 games where I'm stomped and again I'm not going to hand around and keep trying to go flawless in that kind of setting. There just seems too many network and server issues to have a consistent experience. When they used SBMM I had the time of my life, it was great. Then the sweats complained about how they were matching other sweats and the games were getting too hard to win and then Bungie back tracked. Sweats got a taste of what the casual population were experiencing and they didn't like it at all. I mean looking at your PVP play video and they are nothing like I experience that's for sure. I could have won a lot of matches looking at the gameplay so maybe it is networking, maybe being in Australia our latency is the issue who knows. All I know is what I'm seeing in your videos is NOTHING like what I experience in PVP that's for sure.

[@chocorollo6281]

Every match of pvp i play it just feels like im getting team shotted by six igneous hammers and just instantly fall over. can't have fin when the whole enemy team is holding hands and my team is just scattered around them map.

[@whitenoise5121]

As someone who has enjoyed and consistently played d2 pvp since forsaken, this last year is the first time that i seriously cannot enjoy it. All the special ammo/super/ability nerfs have caused d2 to go full circle, back to its launch, before forsaken, which no one liked. I don't know why we never learn from our mistakes. The same thing happened at the end of d1 when they killed special ammo and left the game in that state. Both game used to be so fun. Now they're just there for snobs who think primary aim gunskill should be the only thing that matters.

[@JohnSmith-uf3yn]

Yea, the special ammo having to get crates in comp means we will never play it until they change it back. No bars to fill up. Just stop bungie. Give players 2 shots per life & 1 shot if you kill someone with special. Like we have been for 6 years. That’s it. My god.

[@-AaronBlack-]

For me pvp is a mixed feeling. I’m a top 1% trials player on trials report (Aaron Black#8222) and I have horrible lobby balancing unless I run stacked it’s impossible to win because of teammates who don’t have any game sense, it’s almost like bungie punishes the higher skilled players just for being good and in turn it also punishes bad players because they end up matching with each other just to both end up loosing. Bungie needs to have equal skill level trials, I would love to fight a full team of top 1% players as long as my team is at the same level as well, those are the best matches for me honestly and I think everyone would agree equal skill should face each other that way the lower skill players can actually make it to the lighthouse without running into someone like me or a dude with a thousand plus flawless cards

[@cartho1103]

I don't remember the last time I had a had a match that didn't end with landslide victory or defeat

[@joshuanovakowski8293]

The changes have been nice, but more can always be appreciated. That being said, am I the only one who dislikes the new maps? Too crowded and cluttered for my taste. I like that they brought new maps but not the fact that they encourage shotguns and smgs. Something I'd like to see is a reduction to handcannon aim assist cone. I think it's too forgiving and honestly kind of unhealthy for the pvp ecosystem.

[@michaelcso2400]

It’s a 1000 times worse than anything in Destiny 2 history HC’s and Shotguns are everywhere with its ungodly aim assist and OHK Guardians are lazy and always looking for easiest kill with the least amount of skill IMO

[@Leopa1998]

People play meta because of different reasons, but most important: winning. You can't tell people to not play the best optimal options against normal off-meta pics if winning and success is a factor for rewards. This applies both to PvP and PvE.

[@projectgg6730]

Well whatever they did to special ammo in comp. its basically year one double primary again. Just the color of the ammo changed. Trials is kinda fun though as a solo who doesn't take it seriously in the slightest

[@ormus1746]

I gave up on COD when D1 came out and didn't look back until D2 pvp became a streamers paradise. It's still shit to this day. Gonna have to check out x defiant I guess.

[@justagamethrower]

The leveling in xdefiant is painfully slow but other than that the game is great

[@tonysbanned]

10:28 - 12:06 bro wants us to intentionally use something we don’t find fun just because he doesn’t find it fun. its not for kd, its cuz the gun is fun. ur only argument is that its for kd when im having fun with what i wanna play with. I bet u anything in the world too TV is gonna ignore this comment. “oh yea i’ll just switch to all white weapons and not have fun because tv says im not allowed to use those guns because im apparently farming kd when in reality its just fun”. fun is subjective just like humor. why tf do u care that much. ur only argument is that its for kd. u have no real argument. I dare TV to reply to this with an actual argument other than “ur using it for kd” when in reality im not.

[@tonysbanned]

@TrueVanguard

[@MrPinkpanzer]

I took a two month break from destiny because I was just getting burned out of sweat city in pvp. I don't mind it in comp, or trials, but in quickplay it was too much. I came back because I just missed pvp. The games where it's fun, it's amazing. But those games are not as frequent as I'd like. Ultimately, I'm not playing pvp for the rewards, but for the gameplay and the fun I can find there.

[@literallynobody1515]

Short answer: yes. Broken, stale Hunter HC + shotgun meta, pitiful rewards...

[@Sheikah_Architect]

10:46 dude I used to handicap myself back in Halo 3 when we were destroying the enemy team. I havent heard anyone bring up sportsmanship in over a decade. It's always elitist nerds saying 'get gud' regarding entertainment these days.

[@tacoboy2218]

Aa a pvp main heres my ideas on how to fix pvp tho its in an alright place 1. Make the base crucible loot actually worth it 2. Tone down conditional and iggy 3. Tune some of the most frustrating builds to fight against ( void barrier spam, decoy spam, and osmiomancy spam)

[@stuartpowell389]

Destiny 2 is the only PvP game I play and I typically play around 1-2 matches a week and only really participate in Iron Banner. Matchmaking for me has been good with very few blowouts. Been playing since D1 launch and I can honestly say the biggest thing I miss has to be the end of game screen where you could see what everyone got dropped. It really made it feel like more of a community experience. When someone got that exotic drop you could be happy or resent them but regardless it made you feel something, however small, for your fellow guardian.

[@dredgenprodigy5461]

Too much banger PVE content in the past 2 months. I’ve had no time to just enjoy the new maps.

[@AutiCyrptArch]

It's the same in the New Territory playlist. Conditional + Hammer, emoting, and crouch spamming. I can deal with it, but my teammates tend to up and leave once we hit 3-25. At that point I either take the beating or take the open door. It's just no fun anymore. 'They' want a healthy pvp population, but almost always squeeze out people who want to have fun, or maybe even improve at the game.

[@literallynobody1515]

Sadly that is a playerbase/"we" problem. Not much you can do about scumbag tryhard players whose only fun is making others miserable.

[@dianondhead350]

nothing will break my heart more than chasing Not Forgotten for a whole season, just for it to get put into the monumement of lost light for glimmer and legendary shards. AND THEN NERFING MAGNIFICENT HOWL. :((

[@ragefulhippie6273]

I feel the same but w redrix.

[@Matspeare]

There is nothing fair or balanced in PVP! From unfair subclass advantages to cheating, and let’s be honest, all computer aided tracking, aiming, firing, reloading, hacking, radar and speed enhancements, etc. is cheating! The system is designed by people who are looking for these advantages and exploiting them. Instant barrier and healing for titans, who are supposed to be the slowest and strongest, but are somehow the fastest and strongest, with the widest ranging supers and the most kills! Stop lying to yourselves and us by saying player decline is due to the choice of maps or guns to chase, etc. That’s what PVE is for. We are looking to challenge ourselves against other people and their play styles in a fair, fun and balanced environment, but PVP over the last several years has gotten so far from that! Which is why player base is down to 6%!

[@leeroy2752]

Warlocks are by far the fastest. Titans are quick but they can't change directions without loosing momentum as well as hunters or warlocks. But I agree that some abilities feel like they weren't play tested for pvp.

[@smashiwix5918]

This video aged like milk. Final shape pvp is making me want to gouge my eyes out.

[@mythe6669]

Autorifle and pulse meta along with sitting back and holding hands like in Y1 is so incredibly boring to play / play against. Puts me to sleep. Additionally, things have been incredibly laggy since the final shape. Something is off even worse than usually. No hitreg, randomly invisible team mates and opponents, my guns disappearing and having no scope, player movement having a lot of microstutters like the game is not sure just where they are at any given time if they don't downright teleport... Needless to say I've been playing a lot more pve than pvp this season but even though I like the pve content it won't keep me entertained forever, not like pvp used to do and without wanting to play pvp, there is really no incentive for me to play pve either, fun or not. I do pve to get pvp gear, not the other way around.

[@leeroy2752]

Invisible enemies and my sniper being transparent without a reticle needs to be fixed. I've always wondered why everyone complained about hand holding during checkmate when in the base game hand holding happened as well and you would be killed in .2 seconds. Right now it feels like Bungie took year 1's meta, lowered the ttk, and made abilities more busted.

[@lll-bropez-lll9664]

Honestly rotating surges in pvp would be fun, maybe a 15%-25% bonus on regens or something like that. A tad more damage on matching weapons types, just something to move players off of the most meta things, but doesn’t stop them from playing them. Everything just feels grey in PVP atm. Hot take as well, movement abilities need to come at a cost, the most common high level thing I hear is how important movement is, maybe make it something that you have to work towards, not spam everytime you get shot.

[@williamarchie6872]

I have a theory of why games are fun. Some of the funnest games I’ve ever played (Destiny included at one point) were fun because they were chaotic. Initially they are chaotic because you as a player don’t know what is possible and you don’t know how to respond but it’s fine you’re learning. What has happened over time in multiple titles is the removal of the chaos. This sentiment typically comes from high end players (I consider myself high end) who have a style of play and don’t like to be pushed off from it by something they deem “easy”. The idea that come to mind is checkmate, a rehashing of D2Y1 that only sweats liked spurned on by the “top players” in the community knowing damn well their personal stock in the game just went way up by eliminating the number of threats lesser skilled players can leverage against them therefore eliminating the chaos of the typical match therefore making the game boring. The engagements are the same, no thinking required just shoot at the enemy and if you’re losing run away to double back later. I am of the opinion that checkmate needs to go, primary weapon TTK needs to be faster across the board, special ammo need not be picked up from a box (isn’t the worst though) and abilities and exotics need to be plentiful and potent. Everyone hated shatter dive and Antaeus wards but looking back I had the most fun learning how to dissect those play styles and I’m a better player for it.

[@blaketaylor2441]

All pvp is anymore is people abusing movement tech to ape with the damn thing

[@minster4568]

I think until they make some sort of change to igneous, I don’t think much will change, because most of the weapon choices have to be able to compete with igneous specifically

[@Shrink330]

I started D2 this year and am still a PVE main. I started dabbling in PvP over the last month plus and i have actually started enjoying 6's, dabble in 3's, and even ventured into trials (don't think I will venture there again). I appreciate the comment about ppl taking 6's so serious and being super sweaty about it. That definitely turns me off of PvP sometimes.

[@Colindalugia]

My experiences last time playing PvP: Conditional Igneous gamers. Getting bagged after getting headshot by Chaperone when using Round Robin + Recluse Getting told by the enemy that I suck bad at the game despite not playing for a very long time. Constantly being matched against teams when playing solo in 6's. While D2 PvP has amazing gunplay, the playerbase at times doesn't help retaining players imo. I would like to get better at PvP, but the players in the game don't make me want to keep playing.

[@dbspurge]

Great video totally appreciate your commentary !! I only do PVP if I absolutely have to. I used to love it but not really anymore. It’s just too sweaty.

[@danhalo1405]

Imagine if Bungie would implement a "just for fun non meta playlist" in Destiny 2 and the ten most popular weapons of the latest Trials of Osiris weekend as well as the most popular hunter, titan and warlock subclass would not be allowed in that playlist, at the description of this playlist Bungie would always tell the players which weapons and subclasses are the ones that are not allowed for this week and if someone doesn't switches of his meta tryhard loadout Bungie would replace his weapons and loadout with a terrible blue auto rifle, a blue sidearm and the least popular subclass for that match. I think Bungie would never implement a non meta playlist like that but i think a lot of people would love this playlist like crazy :D

[@bekfistwolf8248]

That would pose the issue of things like the community grouping together to throttle certain weapons, and weapons that're used because they're fun or feel nice instead of being highly effective. Also it wouldn't fix a lot of annoying weapons that just don't top the charts because they're so broken they aren't fun.

[@handyshroom7786]

I quit because of conditional. As a bubble main, the fact that that gun hasnt been nerfed pushed me away 3 months ago. Havent played since in any meaningful capacity

[@ShaoShaoMienshao]

This comment section is a magnet for negative confirmation bias from people who haven't actually tried more than a handful of hours of PvP in weeks/months.

[@mxrandolph4539]

The radar limits movement and loadout. There is very little flanking or map usage.

[@magpi3684]

It legit does not. Infact if that is your playstyle your subclass and loadout can make it a non issue eg night stalker, crouching, staying outside or radar detection (as that's a thing too)

[@mxrandolph4539]

@magpi3684 I go flawless frequently, and I run either void titan for void shield or void hunter for invis. The radar gives you too much information. You should only appear on radar if you are shooting, use a movement technique (slide, airdash, titan melee dash, or camp lane in a spot for greater than 15 seconds)

[@christophercluster728]

⁠@@mxrandolph4539you going flawless frequently has nothing to do with your lack on common sense.to entertain your idea 15 seconds is too long, no decent player is going to stand in the same spot for 15 seconds. 2 not every class has access to movement tech and most people use movement tech to disengage(in which case you already know where they are) or engage (in which case you are at an extreme disadvantage because by the time you are able to adapt to the information they have already killed you or about to kill you)dumb idea all around

[@mxrandolph4539]

@christophercluster728 it only means that I would erase scrubs like you by abusing you with the radar. All that text you wrote means that you can't function with that gigantic radar crutch. Your ad hominem attacks only display your low iq concerning this topic. Edit( everyone can slide)

[@codym2108]

I'm guessing this comment is aimed at TV commenting on people running non-stop meta? Lol..

[@FlukeCage]

While it does feel like the PVP community has trailed off, I did notice I’m playing the same people in trials that I’m playing in 6v6, which is completely different than the people I see in Comp. My matches, especially comp, are taking forever to queue though. 6s is borderline unplayable though, it’s stomp or get stomped. The team that gets stomped inevitably leaves. I’ve had more 4v6 and 3v6 matches in the last week than I’ve had in the last couple months. Stat merchants need to be nerfed.

[@pooger7778]

I’ve only disengaged because of the brave weapons and the increased drop rate. I’m really trying to get the rolls I want from that before attunement goes away.

[@mEnTL32]

Only played a couple games after the tune up... can't put my finger on it but it was awful. That was in March

[@Big_Yum]

but tbh, i still play pvp just because I love it. No other game can come close to the fun I have in destiny pvp STILL. What would make people come play more is if there were crucible specific exotics to chase, I'm talking a randomly dropped gun or quest for a sick exotic. Or objective based ornament grinds for exotic weapons. Like, GET 1000 KILLS WITH BASTION IN PVP TO GET THIS ORNAMENT THATS REALLY COOL ya know, something akin to a COD camo grind.

[@AeternoChannel]

To answer your question on why I sweat in sixes: I'm not a good pvp player (2.8 KDA if I'm remembering correctly) and my connection is "average" so after sitting through ten minutes of destiny saying "Evaluating guardians" at 12/12 just for 2 guys to back out or get sent to another game I want that feel good chemical from top fragging as a late join to the losing team on my tenth mercy game of the night. Nothing feels worse than going through all that just to get absolutely mopped by what feels like the top .01% of pvp sweats with an 11/5 god roll igneous hammer and a conditional finality with a freaking catalyst some how. Point is, it feels nice to get kills, and not everyone has the time nor mental stability to throw together a joke build to have "fun" (if you do, good on you! I still won't feel bad for farming you while screaming at my PC about your teammate gunning me 100% of the time with a Luna's howl and throwing knives (he's just Better))

[@IPHAROAH]

My reasons for barely playing is due to many fun/skill factors being watered down just to make the play field “even”. This can be a long list of changes over the years like one shot abilities, special usage or even just titans shoulder charging around the map. I will agree that 3.0 subclass changes needed some nerfs and still do lol. But this doesn’t even feel like destiny anymore (pvp wise) it’s just a boring snooze fest to watch and play tbh. I would play pvp with my clan or even play rumble for HOURS and wouldn’t get bored but now I can’t even get to orbit without immediately closing the game 😢.

[@AkamuSlayer]

I've tried to get into PVP so many times over the years. As someone who loved Halo, it holds a lot of appeal on paper. The problem for me at least is that it's just not fun. Good PVP games are fun and rewarding even for the losing team, maybe the gameplay is just inherently entertaining or maybe you have a chance of getting a good drop or making progress towards a goal even if you perform badly. There has to be a carrot on the end of the stick. There's no carrot in Crucible. Even if Bungie added amazing weapons that incentivized people to play, it would still be a similar experience to Trials, where you just get farmed and locked out of the Flawless pool by people who have already been Flawless 18 times that weekend. There's no sportsmanship or experimentation, everyone just abuses meta loadouts, so the only interactions you have are against maybe three varieties of playstyle. You get killed by the same weapon over and over again. It also means that I can't experiment or have fun with new playstyles, because it only lowers my chances of winning. Winning wouldn't matter so much if every loss wasn't a frustrating steamroll. Remember when people were jumping off the map in Trials because it was quicker and easier than just being farmed by tryhards? That's the PVP experience for a lot of people in a nutshell. How do you fix that? - More objective game modes where K/D is less of a factor. I absolutely loved Rift for the one weekend it was in Iron Banner because it allowed me to be valuable to the team and make reputation progress without having to win duels with Stompees Hunters, but of course those same people complained because Rift didn't let them slay out, and we never got the game mode featured again. - The meta needs to be dismantled and there needs to be room for experimentation. People need to be able to try builds and weapons that don't come from a KZbin video and actually stand some chance of performing well. The way Bungie balances Crucible is far too restrictive. There's a myth that we can take the gear we earn in the wider world into PVP, but we can't. If you want to win you go on KZbin, find the meta loadout for that season, and farm those drops until you and everyone else on your team has identical loadouts. - SBMM. Aggressive, restrictive SBMM, more aggressive than we've ever seen and far more punishing for the best players. I should never be matched with the people in True Vanguard or Aztecross' skill bracket, it's insane. I can't even start developing my skills and gamesense and build towards that level because I get put in the ring with Mike Tyson. Maybe you don't like more accessible game modes, you think SBMM is the worst thing to happen to Crucible, and you think the meta is in a good place. That's fine, but the people who are happy with the state of affairs are 6% of the population. People like me are happy to just never engage with PVP, but for the people who enjoy PVP and want to play with a larger pool of people, I think the status quo has to be shaken up.

[@TechIMO]

Lobby balancing genuinely feels terrible. Sometimes it feels like I am one person fighting 6. I look around and my teammates are sitting in spawn scoping a lane while we are triple capped and getting farmed. I kill three while the other 3 kill my 5 teammates effortlessly. My only other real complaint is some of the subclasses feel so much better than other options. Solar in particular is very frustrating to play against. Healing grenades and restoration are very obnoxious and I hate fights I’ve already won being reset effortlessly. I don’t take 6s seriously but I see at least 4 people a lobby on conditional/igneous movement exotic min-maxed team shooting. I’ve been enjoying heliocentric and DMT. The fact that heal clip and wormhusk heals stack is insane. Get a kill, dodge, instantly at like 60% HP, next 1v1 you have kill clip and reaper active. Kill them, reload, pick up your orb, instantly full health again with two weapon surges and kill clip again.

[@RoamingKat]

Whilst I sill enjoy playing PvP the population for the Australian region continues to drop to ever lower levels every season. By the third or fourth week of a new season connection quality drops dramatically and lobbies are full of overseas people (China, US, Canada, South America, Russia and occasionally even the UK) which makes games frustrating and unplayable. Latency decides the outcome of matches and it creates this situation of being unable to determine my skill level as a player. After speaking with my Aussies PvP friends they say this has driven them away from playing PvP and the likelihood of them returning is extremely small as the fundamental problem has never been addressed. The only way I can see a way to alleviate this issue would be to combine the PC/console lobbies into a unified population. If Bungie doesn’t look at revitalise PvP I can’t foresee myself to play Destiny into the future as whilst PvE is interesting it’s not engaging enough for me to continue to play into the future.

[@spicy5845]

I'm a PvP main once I've done the new PvE content a few times. Main issue currently is the loot. As a PvP player, I've grinded the shit out of PvE for PvP guns. I think it's only fair that PvE has some good ass guns as well to grind for. Baffles me that Bungie hasn't at least put a lot of worthwhile guns in PvP(not pinnacles) to get more people in.

[@xtusk]

Change fully to cbmm, old special ammo where u spawn with two bullets and I'll be happy! It's boring using hc and shotguns 24/7. I've found recently u either stomp or get stomped in pvp rn!!!! Barely any chill balanced games!

[@LittleBobbyTV]

10:20 Realest a PvP content creator has ever been. I love 6s, but it’s hard to go in and enjoy myself now that I’m pushing 40 with 20 year olds who play full meta ALL THE TIME.

[@deepappl]

Putting lucrative (PVE meta worthy) loot in PVP would upset a lot of players for whom it's very much outside of their comfort zone. Typically trials weapons are not designed to be meta in PVE, like conditional finality is useful in both activities. Do you think Bungie should risk that? Thanks for the video TV!

[@Frosthowl93]

D2 is a strange game. When you're steeped in it for as long as we are, the oddities fade away. But when you play other shoots you remember that it can just be really strange bout hitreg and the like. That's not a big deal. But the prospect wasn't just playing PvP to win, it was improvement. It was immersing yourself in every breadth of D2, getting weapons from strange places and testing them on your friends. I don't have friends to play with anymore. I don't find as much novelty out of the same gun archtypes in stale metas. And I don't have faith in D2 to persist passed the Final Shape to make it worth honing my skills in. It's no one thing.

[@DrStunJosh]

As a Gambit fan whose favorite game mode has been on life support for 5yrs, please take whatever assets and resources from the Drifter and hand them over to Shaxx/Saint for PvP improvements at this point. PvP has always had more than Gambit to begin with (and throughout), so just remove the game mode and give PvP more attention for better player experience-especially if no more effort is going to be put into Gambit to begin with.

[@Gamingbrony360]

Hey vanguard, are you gonna comment on the recent sniper nerf again? I honestly think there isn't a point to snipe (aggressively) anymore just because shotguns/fusion just do a way better job at it now..and seems like majority of the player base uses shotguns anyway

[@mrowoofers101]

This and last season has been pretty awful for me. Last year, I was actually having mostly decent matches. Went from 0.75 to 0.95. Obviously it's still bad, but I was making progress. Nowadays, I've been constantly getting matches where the score is 50~80 to 150, I get a 0.5-ish KD. Then out of nowhere, I suddenly get a stupid 5.0. All I am trying to do is have fun with primary weapons, mostly legendaries. And the exotics I do use are pretty much just Mida and Symmetry. Mida is hardly OP, plus I'm already using Knucklehead because daring someone to peak it is funny (I still lose half the time LOL). As for Symmetry, I forget I even have dynamic charge 90% of the time. Anyways, point is, I'm not trying to stomp lobbies, I just don't want to get stompped. All I want is a reasonable 1.2 KD average. Play however you like, I just personally don't like weapons that can one-shot in PvP games with longer TTKs, but that's just me. Probably only have myself to blame in the end, but I don't find it fun. Not that it's 100% accurate, sometimes it doesn't record some matches for some reason, but according to Crucible Report, of my 2500-ish final blows (I know, not a lot), 23 kills are with shotguns, 7 with sniper rifles, 4 grenade launcher kills, and 2 rocket launcher kills. All other special weapons (with the exception of Forerunner which I have 3 or 4 final blows on) and power weapons are zero. 540 final blows with sidearms, 450 with hand cannons (a solid portion being 180s like Trust), 380 with scout rifles, 280 pulse rifle kills, 250 melee kills, 220 auto rifle kills, 140 supers (mostly golden gun), and then it drops to under 40 bow and SMG kills. Now, I am not a good player by any means. And honestly, I probably wouldn't do too much better even if I was using OP meta stuff. But I find that boring, and that goes for any game I play. I'm just trying to enjoy a casual FPS match, not get stomped by wave frame grenade launchers in Momentum Control. The reason I like Destiny's PvP on paper is because it's kinda like an intermediate between Halo (Reach, 4, and 5 come to mind) and Call of Duty with its own shenanigans going on. I like how any weapon type is viable. I like being able to double/triple jump and slide around (I'm also a big Titanfall 2 fan and used to play a ton of Warframe, so I like fancy movement). The thing is, in practice, the game just feel too sweaty for what it is most of the time. And I rarely see people even using fun weapons like Manticore, Rat King, Last Word, Huckleberry, Devil's Ruin, Sweet Business, etc. Instead I see Quicksilver Storm, Thorn, Ostea Striga, Le Monarque, Telesto, Xenophage, Vex Mythoclast. And all I do is play Control and Momentum Control when available. I just think it would be nice if I could just play a match without spending more time respawning than even running around. I don't feel like I'm asking for much. Also, Rumble is awful for me. I don't know if it's because I'm in Asia and there are all these Chinese hackers (of course, most are legit, but they are still pretty notorious for cheating, let's be real) and I haven't had a single match of rumble without at least one, often 2 or 3, afk macro-using titans that only hide behind their barricades. So even in a mode I have a little more confidence in, it's not even a legitimate match. Tell me I'm not the only one with Rumble matches like this. I NEVER see this is any other mode.

[@MrPrice2U]

At least they re-added ability spam to all the death balling and team-camping! Seriously, people are crouch camping all the freaking time time. I bet Vanguard is going to be super diplomatic again. As usual.

[@Moltrosity]

For me its when im trying to get more solid at trials or when im on a good card run and i get my team mates running PVE perks and running in not with the team and dying. Need some solid team mates to team shoot. But you are so right, there is literally no reason to play trials or PVP if you dont want to keep playing PVP unless it was for cataphract but that was only really for pantheon. Bungie needs to fix their netcode and up their PVP loot!

[@justinspringer8699]

I’m disengaging with PvP because it’s end of season and I’m having fun trying new builds in onslaught

[@jackcronin8726]

Pvp is going to be hell in trials, that's for sure. Once prismatic is out

[@flamingscar5263]

PvPs current state proves me right, so god damn right, and I am basking in it, I hardly see anyone saying they are having a great time in PvP, and the first thing I noticed when I came back recently is the near removal of SBMM, don't think that's a coincidence, Destiny is an unbalanced game both in options to use and in skill level, 1 overlooked aspect of making a PvP game is how much of a difference in gameplay does skill make, ideally you'd want it to be little, being better would still feel better but being worse won't feel significantly worse COD does a good job in this regard, you've got your movement gods slide canceling around every corner, but even a player of objectively lower skill can hold their own if they play right, if they are versing that movement god just throw on a couple stun grenades and an AR, play your range a bit and you'll hold your own. This is why I don't think SBMM belongs in COD but in Destiny thats not a real option, with a long TTK and especially in this current sandbox that focuses so much on crits the outcome of the match is determined by the matchmaking system, a lower skill player has no chance, at all, the more skill matters and the more SBMM matters by extension, if there is no easy way to counter someone better than the only real option for players to have a good time is to keep the lobbies more balanced, its easy to say "skill should matter in fights" and sure, for a competitive shooter like counter strike sure, but Destiny isn't counter strike, skill shouldn't matter nearly as much in the out come of a fight in a casual shooter like this, when it does you promote playing the game at your best 24/7 because skill ends up the only real counter play, you can't counter play by changing your loadout to one that counters what the enemies are using, you just have to be better, and when being better isn't an option it makes the game painful to play

[@Big_Yum]

quick take, in my experience, matchmaking hasn't been too bad, other than long queue times, its just the team balance thats pretty rough

[@SonicVibe]

Every time I play pvp I get ddos and forget about gambit it’s even worse if they see my rank I get insta ddos attack coming my way

[@Sullyjr]

Why am I living in Louisiana being put against players in China & Russia constantly? According to their steam accounts

[@innitamailman]

TRUE VANGUARD. You. Are. Speaking 🗣️ It feels nice to be in good company🤝 I got HUNDREDS of down votes saying how I think everyone has the RIGHT to play how they want. But I sure as hell don’t have to respect it. If you’re cheesing, if you’re cheating, if you’re using full blown meta, crouch spamming smg and cloudstrike, igneous and conditional. You. Are. LAMEEEEE. There’s HUNDREDS of guns in this game, each unique and have a different feel. And you are so boring you can only use TWO???? TV speaks for the philosophers

[@Riley562VT]

A list of issues in current D2 crucible: -sidearms feel bad on m&k and they’re VERY strong -outliers like box breathing Hung jury, forerunner, bows, cryosthesia feel more like cheese strategies that balanced weapons -crucible loot feels generic and is not exciting -cheating players (XIM/Cronus) have free reign. (Bungie NEEDS to reinvent their reporting system with an active team of human employees who manually review accounts/reports) Anticheat software without human support is pointless! -absolutely terrible server tick rate + latency issues -overbearing flinch mechanic that renders many weapons that WOULD be viable as outright uncompetitive -(warlock) lack of variety of viable & fun exotics! (compared to the 10+ hunter exotics that give them a distinct gameplay advantage); I am forced onto my hunter if I want to have fun gameplay variety while also being competitive.(nothing manacles V. Shinobus vow, Athrys embrace) (EoAW vs. foetracer, knucklehead, OEM) -nova bomb NEEDS some love

[@ya-cv8jg]

Here's from above-average-in-sixes, kinda-bad, don't-even-touch-trials kinda player. Issues: 1. Too cheaty, too sweaty (in the end same thing for me) 2. Win-more or get-shat-on philosophy (like the special ammo changes, super recharge on kills, etc.) 3. No punishment for deathballing in sixes (also, 6 players is too many, should be 4-5 in casual playlists) 4. SBM doesnt work 5. All worthwhile loot in the inaccessible playlists (trials, comp, though comp now less so) All in all, D2 PVP is not bad, it is just super casual unfriendly.

[@justsomeguy8778]

Honestly? As a 99% Warlock main who spends 60% of my playtime in pvp? The gameplay of Destiny outclasses so many other games its crazy, I love the Space Opera, stay in touch with old friends halfway across the world, with Destiny - Go play CoD, Fortnite, etc, and tell me D2 pvp doesn't slap - and have a very very high skill ceiling. At the same time? The Destiny community is absurdly toxic, and I think pvp is the subject of an absurd amount of angst.

[@GBSteven954]

As a formerly avid pvp player and someone who went flawless regularly in all of D1 and for the majority of D2, pvp just isn't fun for me anymore. Every single game I play feels like a world championship with 100 millions dollars on the line, which is a feeling I actually like, but not when it's EVERY. SINGLE. MATCH. My skills have also drastically declined where it feels my opposition has only gotten better. I'm suffering from my former success. So now I just stay completely out of pvp with the exception of occasionally going into trials and being a burden on my friends who are better than me whenever it's a weapon I'd like to farm that weekend. Just for a reference point I have managed to keep my overall k/d a respectable 1.73 but I have to sweat my ass off to not let it drop any harder and my trials k/d has dropped all the way down to 1.25.

[@Owlan1]

@tv But......how many people are ACTUALLY leaving on Igneous/Conditional match after match after match and stomping the other team in EVERY game? I bet it's not very many at all, or at least not as many as you think. The people you're encountering or that other people are accusing of this behavior may be stomping a few lobbies, but I'd be willing to bet most of them are getting stomped themselves a fair amount. I know when I put on meta stuff and still can't overcome the 12% chance to win, followed by the 17% chance to win, followed by the 14% chance to win, and so on ad infinitum, you won't catch me switching off meta stuff when I do finally get into a lobby that I can do well in.

[@itsLeels]

So I play PvP mainly with my friends. I hate playing alone, if I don’t have a battle buddy I really don’t play. Yeah it kinda stifles my 1v1 experience a bit, but I play better with a buddy or a team. When they changed the matchmaking to include fireteam matchmaking, it really ruined it for me. And I mean RUIN. Almost each iron banner I would go in with 4-5-6 friends and we even had one person or two in their own lobbies because there wasn’t enough room for them. It was fun, we made jokes, we made it a thing, we made it a game night, it was like having your buddies over for a LAN Party. Or ya got Goldeneye on the GameCube and played with 3 other friends. I is fun! But now that the matchmaking is based on fireteam, it doesn’t ladder the skill properly, people honestly sweat in Quickplay even without conditional and they make it un-fun. No verity in any of what I just said. My friends that we had game nights with in Iron banner, honestly just all quit too, we didn’t have that solid connection as we did, because we couldn’t play without sweating our ba**s off. I really do HATE i FEEL like I have to throw on the fastest time to kill weapon or the most overpowered weapon to just to get a dub here and there. I’m fine with losing in PvP, if your better your better. But when it’s just unbalanced lobbies, and intense weapons that are honestly broken in a lot of cases, and broken as I’m not fun to fight against, the PvP experience is heart breaking for me.

[@Steampunkguitars]

Is D2 Crucible as bad as you think? Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Hell Yes. I don’t even bother playing anymore, and I’ve moved away from Destiny lately. Crucible is one of the things that has kept me coming back, and the lack of attention to it has made me bitter and cynical. I’m not excited by The Final Shape because I feel like they’re just going to continue to ignore PvP while paying lots of lip service to it. The biggest problem for me has been how wildly unbalanced the lobbies are. It’s almost impossible to get a good match anymore, and I don’t enjoy blowing out a team on one match and then being blown out for the next five. It’s not fun. Time is precious, and I have better things to do with my time. If Bungie wants it (and my money), then they need to do better.

[@mudenia1986]

I've been playing Destiny since day 1 Destiny 1 to get that out of the way. I would say I play 97% PvE. And my reason for not playing pvp is, I go in to pvp with 2 guns I think look fun to use. But then throughout that game I get killed with HC Shotty, hc Shotty, hc Shotty, hc Shotty, hc Shotty in 6'es, I'll play that one round and then go back to dungeon and raid. Yes getting stomped by metaaah evvvery god damn time is the reason I don't play pvp ✌️

[@nickjames841]

Honestly, i used to play endless amounts of PvP D1 into the first few years of D2. When there was content draughts, that’s all i would do. About 4 years ago I pretty much quit the game and started playing casually on and off around new DLC’s. Recently had a buddy get me back in the game for Final Shape prep…I’ve played a couple matches just to get some rewards. What’s killing PvP is the grind…everything is so build and ability based right now that you almost need specific builds for PvP or you’re starting with a handicap. In order to make those builds you need rare in game currency. It’s a vicious loop. One of my fav activities with the boys was random loadout PvP nights. I think the crew has gotten together maybe a few times over the past year or 2 and basically it’s we will play till someone rage quits because lag or lobby imbalance or sus game play.

[@asperry97]

Annual pvp exotics, that's how you grant incentive. We have 3v3 elim legendary weapons for people to chase. Give them exotics every year, specifically for pvp. Notice khovastov, Wild Hunt, and Microcosm are not pvp oriented exotics. Red death, maybe, i used it in Crucible in d1, but it's got pve and pvp synergy. If Bungie wants to reign in Pvp. Give the player base a goal to strive towards. Have the development team make uo 1 craftable exotic each year that ever one can earn that requires everyone to throughly play pvp and find out what they enjoy. Most people hop in, get stomped for 2-3 games an hour max and then go back to running raids or gms or what have you. We haven't had an exotic made specifically for pvp in years, and conditional finality was not meant to be a pvp meta. It never was. It just turned out that way.

[@Kumari_44]

Ngl, i friggin love the PVP in this game. But lobby balancing needs to be better like how they had it before they loosened the SBMM! How they had it just before then was near perfect. People were matched against their actual skill level. As it should be. Super Top tier players have no buisness being near low or even mid tier players. And i say this as someone whose not even a bottom tier player. Just because a player is good at the game, doesnt mean they get to ruin the experience for far lesser skilled players just because the good players suck enough to the point where they cant actually hang with players of their own skill level. Cant get 40+ bombs and top frags and epic killstreaks against your 2.5kd buddies? GOOD! Thats how its supposed to be. Because you cant divorce difficulty from high levels of skill. They should Stay in their lane.

[@SMOK3DbySMOK3D]

I live for pvp and have taken a few year hiatus from it to mainly only play path of exile. Cant wait to push it this expansion!

[@Liam22278]

The last 3 seasons I loved PvP, I could easily win 50% of the matches. But with this season I feel like the meta favors M&K more than usual with 120s and as a console player on controller I just can’t hit my shots with them like they can. Every match I’m running up against IHs and Conditional Finality’s and just getting ran through. I haven’t preordered Final Shape because this season being long and so unbalanced has made me hate the game.