Is Rap Music?

It's a question that's plagued music theorists since the inception of the genre, and we still struggle with it to this day... Nah, just kidding, pretty much every academic musician I know recognizes that rap is music, even if they don't personally like listening to it. So why is that such a controversial claim to the general public? Well, I'm no sociologist so I'm not sure I can answer that, but what I can do is look at the compositional arguments people make as to why it doesn't count, and put those arguments in the historical and systematic contexts they so desperately crave. So I did that! It's this video. You probably figured that out already, though.
Patreon: / 12tonevideos
Mailing List: eepurl.com/bCTDaj
Facebook: / 12tonevideos
Twitter: / 12tonevideos
Instagram: / 12tonevideos
Email: [e-mail]
Last: • Understanding Message ...
LINKS:
Flow paper: www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.09.1...
Patter Singing demo: • I Am the Very Model of...
Sprechgesang demo: • How does Berg use Spre...
PBS documentary: • The Devil's Music (NOTE: contains an instance of the N-word)
SCRIPT + SOURCES: docs.google.com/document/d/1E...
Huge thanks to our Elephant of the Month Club members:
Susan Jones
Jill Jones
Ron Jones
Howard Levine
Gabi Ghita
Kaylor Hodges
Elaine Pratt
Ken Arnold
Brian Etheredge
Josh King
Gene Lushtak
Tom
William (Bill) Boston
Khristofor Saraga
Nicolas Mendoza
Anton Smyk
Wolf Bennett
RAD Donato
Mitchell Fund
Dale Monks
Duck
Chris Prentice
Jack Carlson
Len Lanphar
Paul Ward
Benjamin DeLillo
Budjarn Lambeth
Branden Randall
Dov Zazkis
Jesse Russo
James Treacy Bagshaw
Christopher Lucas
Hendrik Payer
Thomas Morley
Abhijit Patel
Andrew Beals
And thanks as well to Henry Reich, Eugene Bulkin, Logan Jones, Abram Thiessen, Anna Work, Oliver, Jc Bq, Dialup Salesman, Adam Neely, nico, Justin Donnell, Michael Fieseler, Rick Lees, Ben LaRose, rhandhom1, Harold Gonzales, Marc Himmelberger, Chris Borland, StarsServant, jason black,Nick Olman, Dutreuilh Olivier, Davis Sprague, Justin Bronstein, Justin Aungst, David Roulston, Dave Mayer, Thomás, billy roberts, Elliot Burke, Alex Atanasyan, Joey Strandquist, Daniel Gilchrist, Amlor, Greg Borenstein, Tim S., Elias Simon, Paul Quine, Anamol Pundle, David Tocknell, Jerry D. Brown, blalo'u, Christopher Wright, Lauren Steely, Fabian, Nikolay Semyonov, Ohad Lutzky, Jon White, Eivind Vatshaug, Josiah R. Hazel, Kurtis Commanda, Bate Goiko, James A. Thornton, Jacob Friend, Benjamin Cooper, Kevin, Joe Galetti, Arnas, CodenaCrow, Sarah Spath, Skylar J Eckdahl, Kristian Bredenbeck, John Bejarano, Gerhard Blab, drunkwookiee64, Brian Dinger, SD, Revolution Harmony, Aa Markus, Paul Apicella, Pawel Sit, David Barker, Adam Wurstmann, Dave Wray, Shadow Kat, Adam Kent, Michael Alan Dorman, Caroline Simpson, Lee Rennie, Richard T. Anderson, Thomas Schryver, Angela Flierman, Matthis Knopf, Kelsey Freese, Peter Wells, Zion Suppasan, Dan Lizotte, Seth Keller, Mark Feaver, Tyler Lukasiewicz, Kevin Johnson, Brian McCue, Kevin Hellon, Stephan Broek, Richard Walker, Wú QióngYuǎn, Nathan Petchell, Blake Boyd, alex, Calvin Blitman, Magnus Guldbrandsen, Ross Relic, Stefan Strohmaier, Lilith Dawn, David Baker, Jonathan Beck, Dmitry Jemerov, Jason Foster, Ian Seymour, Brett Haines, christian madsen, Luke Rihn, Rob Holton, Devon Wilhelmy, Ben Horwood, Jaroslav fedorčák, Allen Edwards, Brandon Lanning, Ryan Nicholls, ml cohen, Brandon Hamele, Darzzr, Rodrigo Roman, Francois LaPlante, Matthew Fox, Paper Coelacanth, Britt Ratliff, Patrick James Morley, Koen Hoogendoorn, Tae Wook Kim, Eddie O'Rourke, Ryan, Timothy Field, Jon Bauman, Drew Mazurek, Jacob Luedecke, Vincent Sanders, Victor L., Tommaso Ghidetti, JJ Deman, Volker Wegert, Linus Abrahamson, Matthew Kallend, Patrick Callier, JH, Joshua Gleitze, Ben Zotto, Jan Macek, Trevor, Michael McCormick, Charles Gaskell, Sylvain Chevalier, Yuriy Honcharuk, Roger Grosse, David Hardin, Jeremy Zolner, Leon Saleh, Valentin Lupachev, Paul Koester, and Danny! Your support helps make 12tone even better!
Also, thanks to Jareth Arnold, Jade Tan-Holmes, Mark Sundaram, Sheryl Hosler, and Kim Harrison for proofreading the script to make sure this all makes sense hopefully!

[@12tone]

Some additional thoughts: (Given the sensitive nature of the topic at hand, I won't be responding to any comments that clearly haven't watched the video or read these points.) 1) Notably missing from this video is a discussion of the lyrics, for a couple reasons. A) The existence of instrumentals demonstrates that something with _no_ lyrics can still be considered music, so it seems self-evident that having bad lyrics is not a disqualifying factor. B) Rap often has great lyrics. The idea that rap music is always about sex, drugs, crime, and violence is not founded in reality: For instance, check out the Common song I mentioned, which is about philanthropy, solidarity with the suffering, and lifting up hurt communities. C) There's not actually anything wrong with lyrics about sex, drugs, crime, and violence. There's plenty of rock, jazz, and even classical music that hits those themes, it's just we're able to separate artistic depiction from overt endorsement in those cases. To quote professor Erik Nielson, “Nobody believes that Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.” (QUOTE SOURCE: www.chronicle.com/article/Rap-Is-Art-So-Why-Do-Some/243989 ) While there is certainly plenty of rap songs with problematic lyrics, there's also plenty of others that use that same imagery in great and compelling ways, and the idea that the genre is uniquely problematic is not, to my knowledge, supported by any sort of real corpus analysis. 2) It's worth recognizing that, while basically every black-created genre has faced this sort of backlash, not every genre that has faced this sort of backlash is black-created. Country, for instance, is another common target to this day, as are Metal, EDM, and Pop. So my claim isn't that _only_ black styles are targeted, but in each of those cases the music winds up associated with marginalized or otherwise socially rejected groups. In the case of Country and Metal, they're connected primarily with the poor and working class, and EDM and Pop are the music of teenagers. In each case, societal power dynamics play an important role in the determination of what is "acceptable" art and expression. 3) This video has a lot of sources. So many, in fact, that I broke youtube's character limits by trying to include them all in the description. Here's the list: (I don't expect you to read all of them before responding, just want to make sure they're out there and can't do it in the normal place.) SOURCES: journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001372 www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recitative www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100525335 www.britannica.com/art/monophony www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/history/p20_4_1.html www.thoughtco.com/history-of-djing-2857342 www.musanim.com/pdf/debussyclairdelune.pdf www.britannica.com/topic/Dies-irae thefederalist.com/2015/11/09/pop-culture-keeps-resurrecting-this-deathly-gregorian-chant/ www.victoryvinny.com/svr_and_di/RachmaninovandDiesIrae-Version04.pdf www.chronicle.com/article/Rap-Is-Art-So-Why-Do-Some/243989

[@pedroalvesvalentim7652]

Amazingly put, man.

[@hhdhpublic]

And even when lyrics deal with subjects of violence, sex and drugs they can be extremely well-written and clever, like in case of artists such as MF Doom, Rakim, Wu-Tang Clan, Nas and so forth. . .

[@TheAndersops]

I'm in no way comparing groups, but how is the backlash faced by contemporary music categorized? Music like those by Stockhausen or Hermeto Pascoal (Classical and Popular) always have people saying it isn't music or art.

[@Pembolog]

que

[@Nightcoffee365]

Respect.

[@AdamNeely]

elephants in 4k!

[@sheppardthehero2472]

BASS

[@leonardo9259]

HAIR

[@saam6768]

BASS and HAIR

[@nofilqasim]

BHAIR

[@Edgarromero94]

The lick in 4K

[@iammrbeat]

With this video, you have been able to articulate what I have always had a really difficult time explaining to folks. I can't wait to encounter the next person who says "rap isn't music."

[@HEHEHEIAMASUPAHSTARSAGA]

Looks like 12tone has learned the art of the Adam Neely title/thumbnail

[@dwarpmunder]

I was thinking that too!

[@dariocaporuscio8701]

I thought the same thing

[@maxonmendel5757]

It’s so good because Adam Neely actually left a comment on this video!!

[@jordonwiersema2807]

"Music is harmony, rhythm, and melody put together" --by that definition lots of soloist music isn't music and, most importantly to me, it means that unpitched percussion-only pieces are not music. >:(

[@12tone]

Yeah it's an impressively bad definition. But it's one you can use to exclude rap, so it's a common one none-the-less.

[@AnonymousFreakYT]

I read I read the title as if it were missing a word. "Is Rap Music _?" Is rap music *WHAT*?

[@LouisSerieusement]

lol

[@steffen502]

Me too, haha!

[@davec1]

same here :D

[@davidweed924]

Me too

[@rarebeeph1783]

Is rap music? = Does rap music be? = Does rap music exist? Q.E.D.

[@edi4dex867]

LONG comment warning: Some comparisons being made in the comment section are incongruous. A lot of the confusion here stems from the fact that rapping is a percussive type of musical performance but has become synonymous with the hip hop genre. I see a lot of "is poetry music...?" (and variations of this) throughout the comment section. Poetry has rhythm, a musical element, but the rhythm in poetry is an immanent property of the poem's wording. In tonal languages, poetry can very well sound extremely musical because of this. You can grab a random "poetry-challenged" person off the street and get them to scan a poem's meter pretty accurately. (In fact, they don't even have to know what scansion is.) Poetry nowadays obviously isn't required to be oral, but even when it is, it's not difficult to perform. Contrarily, since rap is about using the voice as a percussive vocal instrument, poetic meter doesn't have to apply (though it can). I understand the sentiment behind "rap is closer to poetry than it is to music," but it's not accurate. It's nice when a rap is very lyrical and uses lots of literary techniques, but none of that is essential to basic rapping, just as glissando isn't essential to basic singing. You can control tone, texture, and dynamics (i.e., articulation) while rapping by altering prosody, attack, volume (duh), and many other aspects of enunciation. People more used to very melodic music may not even notice the difference, which will make the music sound bland (and in that case, it's no surprise when the listener does not like it). I'm not going to go into super linguistics-oriented stuff about flow, but I'll flesh out a little bit of the technique, because there are many misconceptions about it. Just staying on the beat isn't what most rappers do, which is why I ask people who say rap takes no talent or is "just talking" to rap Oddisee's "No Reservations" -- among other things, breath control becomes apparent very quickly lol. Take a simple beat in common time (4/4): 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &... You can stick to the beat: (1)*12* tone (2)*IS* a (3)*YOU* tube (4)*GEM* with 1/8 note rest ...and rap that does this tends to sound like a nursery rhyme lol. Note, however, that you could rap nonsense words or onomatopoeic ones instead, too, because rap isn't just "talking" but using the vocal apparatus in a percussive manner. Going beyond this and weaving in and out of subdivisions of the beat, using syncopation, and other cadence changes is what happens in most rap, and it can be done on the *same beat*. This is why the "Haha, 12tone, by your definition, a poem recitation would be music!" thing is wrong and a complete non sequitur; it presumes, despite the video explaining otherwise, that rap is just talking. The whole fake "rhythm and poetry" thing is responsible for that, it seems. No poetry is necessary. You can musically rap the back of a Raisin Bran box, and I've done something similar (I think it was a Wheaties box). Replace a Kendrick song with gibberish lyrics that match up syllable for syllable, dynamic for dynamic, and you're still rapping. To prove this point, I once rapped three different verses using only six words (three rhyming pairs) over the instrumental to Tupac's "Me Against the World," relying entirely on articulation to solidly deliver them convincingly. For those who still don't grasp the difference, I'll use A Visit from St. Nicolas: 'Twas the night before Christmas and all through the house" (poem in anapestic tetrameter) 'Twas-the-night be-fore-Christ mas-and-all through-the-house (rapped in triplets -- interesting to play with dynamics, especially pitch, like the "flat" pitch accent common in Japanese, or to rap it staccato style with minimal aspiration) But as earlier stated, rap often combines poetry/literary technique with what would otherwise just be rhythm/musical techniques as we know them in any other form of music: 'Twas-the-night be-fore-Christ mas-and-all through-the-house, house, house (triplets with palilogy) "Twas the, night before Christmas, and all-through-the house, ayy! (syncopation, rubato, ad lib lol) You can rap poetry, but not all rap is poetry. I took violin lessons at a music shop when I was younger, and after a lesson one day, I saw a singing student talking to her instructor about having trouble staying in tune with real lyrics but being fine with scales. I'll never forget what she told her pupil: "Think of your voice as a word piano!" If you want to rap (or understand rap), you have to think of your vocal apparatus as a word drum. Hope this comment clarifies things for anyone with enough patience to continue till the end. Thanks for the interesting video and discussion, 12tone.

[@falpsdsqglthnsac]

You forgot to mention that the “real instruments” thing would disqualify literally _all of techno and EDM music._

[@Carlos-ln8fd]

I think "rap/metal/whatever is not music" is just a comptely nonsensical idea. Music is something people listen to for recreation that's clearly distinct from podcasts, audiobooks or other similar things you listen to. It's just one of those empty attacks that really shouldn't be taken seriously. Having said that I'm glad people like you can use that malicious question to talk about music and teach stuff.

[@Jesse-mh6hv]

I 100% agree with you

[@wazzap500]

Carlos If it fits into the definition of music it's music.

[@amap0l4]

buyers market

[@nathandorsey9145]

Rock Musicians seem to be particularly hung up on the “Rap doesnt take skill” debate which as a rock musician myself feels like a glass house situation.

[@the.Aruarian]

Hey man, 4 power chords over 4/4 is, like, super-hard.

[@robinvanrenselaar7142]

Muh pentatonic shreddings

[@talavancohen923]

lol yeah I love both rap and rock but both contain plenty of examples of very simplistic music, which in my mind isn't even a valid criticism anyway. If skill was the end all be all a lot of my favorite punk groups wouldn't have ever existed.

[@krautgazer]

Another thing that he didn't mention in the video is that producing a track by software DOES take skill. Ableton, FL Studio etc. have so many stuff in them to master. Sure, you can just put 2 samples in it linearly for 2 minutes and call it music but you can also play two chords in the guitar for 2 minutes and call it music as well. My point is that a guitar and a laptop are two instruments where you can make music and there are degrees of skill in each one. You can always learn more and more and the greatest hip-hop producers are very skillful in creating unique sounds.

[@MicTheSnare]

I can't tell you how much I agree with your thoughts on musical expression over virtuosity. Excellent video!

[@RaptorShadow]

As a low-grade musician who does it anyway, 100% :D

[@LauraCrone]

My new argument for why rap is, specifically, melodic, is that I heard a coworker of mine whistling a Cardi B song recently and immediately recognized it. Not whistling the hook or the backing track, whistling what Cardi B was rapping. I feel like if you can whistle it, it's a dang melody.

[@jonathanflores2302]

Was it money moves?

[@devincory9695]

Atonal melodies are fascinating and I love them.

[@conciliator6440]

almost all young/up-and-coming rappers these days rap melodically or in a sing-song style where they pitch up and down for style but not always melody like Cardi does. Sometimes the melody is very simple and just follows the root or root and 5th or something but it's 100% tonal. In fact some of these young guys we identify with modern hip-hop such as Lil Uzi Vert don't even self-identify as rappers. For example if you look at a pretty recent popular song Denzel Curry - CLOUT COBAIN, well dude is singing the entire time. Most people would still call this a rap song but it has almost no non-tonal vocals, it's melodic singing the entire time. People may not like the style he sings in or his untrained voice or the lyrics but these new guys are almost all sing-rapping at least some of the time.

[@GibusWearingMann]

Rappers singing their raps has been common since about 2015 (Fetty Wap) and it's been notable since at least 2009 (Kanye West) and probably far earlier. So, yeah, the "rap isn't music" argument is especially dumb considering that a lot of rap isn't even technically _rap._

[@jsk8et]

There's something (perhaps slightly darkly) satisfying about hearing someone thoroughly and intelligently unpack and destroy a foolish and under-thought argument. If music did require virtuosity, this video would be music.

[@columbus8myhw]

I agree with the sentiment of this comment, but that last sentence doesn't make sense

[@Pablo360able]

Who's to say it's not?

[@Unit27]

I would attribute this argument to cultural misunderstanding due to lack of exposure, and thus, lack of understanding of the art form. Hip Hop started from the need of self expression of poor kids who couldn't afford instruments, but had access record collections, which led to the use and manipulation of other people's music as of way to create their own. Rap is the live, spontaneous element which developed in top, and its characteristic rhythmic complexity and lack of melodic intricacy comes from the same conditions. Hip Hop and Rap are reflections of the place and time they were created, but they're genres that have had the chance to develop and become much more through the years.

[@neurotransmissions]

Idk, I think you should've ended the video after those 10 seconds man. Lol. Can't believe rap is even questioned to be music, but you answered it eloquently! In particular, I am grateful that you address the social impact on rap perception and critique. I think it would be easy to avoid, but you decided to address the elephant in the room...by drawing elephants. Keep up the great videos! I really liked your doodles this episode!

[@Seltyk]

7:10 In my former band director's words, "Good composers steal from other good composers"

[@LowReedExpert1]

With this question, I always relate Rap to being the "Percussion" of the singer family. Heavy reliance on rhythm, and relatively small amount of multiple definite pitches; I feel the argument to be made is what makes rap different than Poetry to a beat

[@demian605]

LowReedExpert1 I mean, Rap is an acronym for Rhythm and Poetry.

[@pathagas]

That’s a genius way to look at it. I completely agree.

[@tonybates7870]

Demian I like that, but doesn't the term rap come from a slang word for talking?

[@grnd_ctrl8387]

Demian That's a backronym and misinformation.

[@johnbradley2343]

I think the problem with distinguishing rap from "poetry to a beat" is that rap is a type of poetry in addition to being a type of music, and so while not all poetry to a beat is rap, all rap is poetry to a beat. So, in the same way that we can look at what makes rap a specific genre of music, we can look at what makes it a specific genre of poetry. I'm no expert, but I understand that rap has peculiar conventions of meter, rhythm, rhyme scheme, and the way the three interact.

[@alan2here]

"Stop being a snob with your music, it's made to be heard man, anyone can use it. We get so precious at times, it's just rhythms and rhymes and melodies and times."

[@saberreiter8569]

"XYZ is not music" is not an argument or an opinion. It's an insult people use disguised as an opinion.

[@mk_rexx]

The worst argument is "XYZ is not music because there are no real instruments" often said by a rock star wannabe not realizing the electric guitar is basically a synth to the classical guitar. I actually listen more rock, but I also like certain electronic music a lot.

[@JaneXemylixa]

Concerning the games one, I heard a POV that people who accuse something of not being art imply that something has to be art to be important and significant. Which is kinda sorta pretty wrong.

[@mk_rexx]

Jane Xemylixa In that argument, we can infer that a large majority of art isn't actually art, and certain videogames automatically qualify as art since they're impactful to our modern society. So they just killed their own argument.

[@Arena1999]

This couldn't be anymore true. What a self-centered, entitled attitude to have towards any genre.

[@an_annoying_cat]

If borrowing music isn’t music, then nothing is music. Speech is just repeated sounds given meaning to each other, so no lyrical music is music. In addition, notes are just repeating sound waves and according to this idea, no sound is music either. But most importantly, if this definition were correct, _that would mean The Lick would not be considered music._

[@davepotter5913]

Very many years ago, when I was I composition student studying musique concrète, I learned that, at it's root, music is sound organized in time. At a high level, music evokes emotion. Rap certainly has both, and much more. Any argument that rap isn't music is ludicrous.

[@RedmarKerkhof]

I recommend anyone to try rapping. It's harder than it seems.

[@latenighthype5905]

I literally tried my hardest I freestyled and even wrote my own rhymes. Long story short I'm sticking to listening.

[@NeSkuSound]

This video is a job done really really well

[@sherylhosler9487]

Oh man, the "modern major general" drawing to go with the patter singing idea makes me SO happy! ^_^ Also, I think this video turned out really great - nice work!

[@Arian545]

I would also argue that samplers is an instrument, just not a traditional one, it is like saying that electric guitars are not instrument because they use effect pedals to produce sounds that are not possible on an acoustic instrument.. and plenty of hip hop use "real" instruments as well, like The Roots is a good example, they are a full on band. And sampling can be lazy, but it can also be transformative, it can create a completely new whole, even if sounds are borrowed. And using studio trickery is just part of recorded music, when The Beatles stopped touring they intentionally made music that could not be reproduced 100% in live settings.

[@joshstarkey8883]

I would also add that in addition to virtuosity not always being important in music, that assumption that sampling etc don't take skill is pretty ignorant. I'd like to see a lot of the people who claim that try it. They'll also say things like "just pushing buttons," which on the most basic physical level is true, but by the same logic their favorite guitar player is "just plucking strings." Just because something is physically easy in its most basic form doesn't mean doing it creatively and artistically is.

[@columbus8myhw]

Piano is just pushing buttons.

[@ZipplyZane]

I would like to add another argument against virtuosity as a requirement for music that does work in the past: when it was just different people playing one note each, as in handbell choirs. You could also look at the simple melodies that have been passed down for everyone to sing. Is Twinkle Twinkle Little Star not music because even little kids sing it?

[@the.Aruarian]

The idolization of virtuosity/technical skill is a problem in every art-form. I think it's because people like to make themselves feel better about being incapable of producing art. Just look at musicians, how often do people ascribe their capabilities to 'innate talent', rather than hours upon hours of deliberate and hard work?

[@donach9]

Twinkle twinkle was written by Mozart, btw

[@JaneXemylixa]

And he sure knew how to write a catchy tune!

[@ajaysandhu4670]

@@donach9 No it wasn't, the melody comes from a very old french folk song. However, he did write a theme and variations on the melody.

[@thebashfulturtle9987]

If rap isn't music because it lacks Melody then drummers aren't musicians because they go bang ting

[@alexshih3747]

I'm so glad that you acknowledged that rap has melody; it's just a different type of melody from the melodies most people are used to. And even if it didn't have melody, that's no reason to say it isn't music.

[@12tone]

Yeah, that's true too. A good comparison there would be drum corps music: No one really argues that it's not music even though it's literally all rhythms.

[@TheFlameBladeWielder]

If you think about it, doesn't rap kind of have the same type of melody as something like death metal? Melody closer related to a rhythm than general melodicism

[@fluffyfluffykatz]

I have always responded with something similar whenever I heard an argument about rap not being music. Works like “Clapping music“ and “Drumming“ by Steve Reich are much more minimalist in sound variety than your average rap song, yet I don‘t know anyone who says it‘s not music.

[@skwyd42]

By far, my most favourite video of yours! Well done indeed!

[@dogsandyoga1743]

Looking forward to this one! I'm new to 12 Tone! Been on a binge...

[@teucer915]

Rap is virtuosic. Anybody who disagrees is invited to freestyle their opinion at me with impeccable flow. Can't? Then you prove my point. (I agree that virtuosity isn't required to be music, but it's also present.)

[@MrUnoun]

teucer915 is John Cage 4mins and 22 seconds considered music? If it is then could I freestyle silence at you and since it’s just subjective I could be declared the greatest freestyle rapper ever?

[@devincory9695]

@@MrUnoun Yeah... Just keep that flow going forever and I think we'll all win. :)

[@mallowthecloud]

As someone who 1. hasn't found much rap that clicks with me, and 2. used to be an annoying twat about this kind of thing ten years ago or so ("I don't like it, so I must find a reason it's invalid--I got it, it's not real music!"), this is an excellent video with excellent reasoning. Nowadays, I hate when people criticize rap as "not music," because I recognize that they're doing the same thing I was doing. That is, they don't like it or understand it, but they need to justify to themselves WHY that is, and they come up with (or, more often, rehash) this lame argument. They don't realize that it's okay for music (or any art) to not click with you, and yet still be considered good music (or art). It clearly greatly impacts many people who enjoy listening to it, and even get deeper meaning out of it. To try to take that away from others because of your personal preference is just nasty and spiteful.

[@Killius]

cream wutang clan that song is a good start

[@mattmason9618]

Your picture and name just made me super nostalgic for Super Mario RPG... Where'd I put that emulator...

[@robertmeyer4580]

Loved this vid man! I love what your doing.... Definitely gonna show this to everyone whos ever told me what to listen to!

[@GoDrex]

"The most important thing in art is The Frame. For painting: literally; for other arts: figuratively--because without this humble applicance, you can't know where The Art stops and The Real World begins. "You have to put a 'box' around it because otherwise, what is that shit on the wall? "If John Cage, for instance, says, 'I'm putting a contact microphone on my throat, and I'm going to drink carrot juice, and that's my composition,' then his gurgling qualifies as his composition because he put a frame around it and said so. 'Take it or leave it, I now will this to be music.' After that it's a matter of taste. Without the frame-as-announced, it's a guy swallowing carrot juice." Frank Zappa

[@12tone]

That's a pretty good framing. I tend to prefer viewing music as an experiential thing, akin to the Luciano Berio's quote "Music is anything you experience with the intention of hearing music", but Zappa's view certainly has merit too.

[@monophone903]

Can someone pin this please?

[@finno2290]

Baby G i love that it’s carrot juice

[@fretlesssix9075]

I love the juxtaposition of the Bittersweet Symphony example in this video. It is serving double duty as ostinato and unspoken defense of sampling (borrowing). FYI: I’ve been re-listening to some rap from the early 90’s and have been amazed at how skillfully the tracks and samples are assembled.

[@PalmerS05]

What a great video. As always, you demonstrate your points clearly, and with supporting evidence for each one. As someone who's always kind of been on the fence about whether or not to classify rap as "music" in the common sense, you've really made some solid arguments that have shifted my perspective. That's not to say I don't like rap, I listen to a lot of it, but I can understand the contention on the topic. Thanks for putting this out there, I imagine it might have given you a moment's pause in deciding whether or not to cover it, but I'm glad you did, and you did it very well!

[@noahdominicsilvio2472]

This!!! Coming from a country with traditional music composed mainly of percussive instruments and chanting, I'm so tired of people imposing European standards on what music is and isn't on to other cultures.

[@mcmire]

I love Sprechgesang and the idea that the spoken word can be melodic. Are you by chance planning a video about that alone?

[@12tone]

I might! I'd have to do a bunch of reading on it first, I'm only passing familiar with it at the moment. But it's a really interesting idea and I'd love to know more about it, and the best way to do that would be to try to make a video about it.

[@pathagas]

12tone I would absolutely love to see that!

[@samuraisecretary]

I've been subscribed for a while, mostly because I know so little about music and nothing I read makes sense, ever. So thanks for that. And extra thanks for this. This is your best, and maybe most important? work yet. I've felt compelled to share it with everyone I know.

[@mattybeats3290]

This is amazing!! Great work fam! 🤘

[@antoniogutierrez7218]

Hey man, great job as usual, thanks for your explanation, taking back on the definitions, I like it when definitions are not subjective, and the best non-subjective definition of music I've found so far is "Organized sounds and silences" that means anything unorganized is just noise, and when it is organized is music, now the subjective question: is it good music? That is up to each person to define.

[@Murrlin27]

This was really informative without too much over-the-head music theory!

[@FreeBroccoli]

Ben Shapiro DESTROYED by FACTS and MUSIC THEORY

[@giacomot15]

"Hey welcome to 12tone! Let me ask you a question: is rap music? Yes, it is. Anyway, thanks for watching" *video ends

[@RudyAyoub]

Giacomo Toniolo 10/10 would watch again

[@grrggrrg4805]

But... But... My music theorist dad?!

[@jd5726]

I can't stand people who always hate on Hip-Hop they normally have no idea about rap at all and only go off what they hear on the radio and say its just talking and takes no talent at all

[@haymjack]

Okay. So I am pausing to write this at around 6:40, and I just have to say you’ve completely changed my mind on rap not being music. The arguments are so well thought out, and I couldn’t agree more with your reasoning. This is also kind of surprising considering that I listen to metal music. The only thing is that I still can’t get behind the auto tune. I really do think it makes music boring, and that’s probably just because so many people are using it.

[@1997Awesomedude]

Fantastic video! You've probably heard them out before, but I really dig Hobo Johnson's way of blurring the lines between speaking/singing and definitely recommend checking them out

[@TieumaxVx]

I think you're channel is just genuinely wonderful and inspired, that is vulgarization as it should be and that I learned to love rebus as an adult with it, so thanks, and keep them elephants popping

[@timothymclean]

My elementary school music teacher made basically this exact argument about rap, which I found very convincing, since I only knew of rap by reputation. Though come to think of it, it was still pretty compelling after I started hearing rap firsthand... though that says more about my high school classmates' taste in music than rap as a whole.

[@iskandertime747]

Really, really, really, good points here, and another great video!

[@michaelpdawson]

1:07 - Rabbit hole or weasel hole?

[@12tone]

Yeah that drawing got away from me.

[@kurtisburtis]

12tone: but as mustelids go, it’s mighty winsome ...

[@hellmasker1]

I think sometimes people exaggerate to really emphasize their point which is simply "I don't like it" but think that putting the entire genre (and all its subgenres) down will somehow change anyone's mind. I used to be in that camp but admittedly I've grown up since then. Rap is music and it's okay to not like it or not prefer it.

[@BR0K3NARCH3TYP3]

Really great analysis and defense here. Honestly an entire video could be made about the inconsistent views on sampling in music and art in general. The Verve are among the most notable example of sampling litigation gone horribly wrong due to greed.

[@charlesgaskell5899]

Thanks for the shout-out for Cornelius Cardew's Treatise at the end! Maybe do a video on that one day?

[@TazTheYellow]

12tone: [explains ostinatos] Me: Oh, so that's what that thing that the Yoshi's Island Map Theme does is called.

[@nerothos]

Fucking THANK YOU for making the last point in the video and not shying away from how much of this is genuinely rooted in racism whether people saying it are aware of that fact or not. Was planning on taking it up in the comments as soon as I clicked the video but turns out you're already on top of it. Stay great, love your videos.

[@angrystickfig]

You mentioned a little before the 3:20 mark about making a video on plain chant; that'd be awesome! I think knowing the history behind things can really help to understand them, and musical conventions are no exception to that rule. Also, Dies Irae can be heard at football games; I know we ( Louisville Cardinals) play it as a defensive stand tune, and I doubt it's too uncommon considering how imposing it is.

[@MrCthur]

Interesting example of Bittersweet Symphony, given that it was a sample/cover itself. Keep the content coming!

[@gmccrate]

This is something (rap not music) that I was completely oblivious about. For what it is worth, even tap dancing is music. If you (or anyone else does) feel it, it just is.

[@bassman9261995]

I would love to see you do a whole video really going deep on this whole idea of “flow”.

[@rachelzimet8310]

Thank you for making this video!!!

[@basstian]

Great video, as usual, but you may have outdone yourself this time. You said so much in such a short amount of time and gave me (and probably many others) a lot to think about. Thanks!

[@nagichampa9866]

Thank you for that video! Next time I have a music discussion with my dad with my dad I'll show your video!

[@tiberiurus1289]

Rap definitely is music, plus it has progressed a lot and there are styles to choose from( Don't try mumble rap in my opinion, cause that's exactly what you'll get).It has a lot of connexions with reggae music and there are plenty of projects that includes classical influences/jazz. In the end, it's creation, it's art. If done right, it can reach people in a lot of ways because if it's variety, it unites people and might make them feel good, and that I believe it's the main point of music. Case closed?

[@SixfeetStacks]

One thing I would add to the conversation - although it doesn't really have too much to do with rapping itself - is sampling. Sampling is something that's often underappreciated, or even frowned upon as you mentioned because it doesn't require as much of an effort compared to coming up with an actual composition. What I am about to mention can come off like rambling or not too logical, but I think it's an interesting example of the butterfly effect. While nowadays it's more common that producers tend to dodge sampling in order to avoid a potential lawsuit, I would compare sampling to making mashups. It definitely requires good ears to not even putting two vastly different songs on top of each other, but to see the potential in "what would happen if I would put A song on top of B song" and seeing the fact that not only you have a reinterpretation of the original piece of art, but it can be quite amusing to see how two totally different compositions can fit with each other perfectly. Hip-hop production during the 90's was pretty much this taken to a whole another level by breaking this concept down to its core, and essentially taking insanely small pieces of a record and creating an entire composition that when dissected, can be interpreted as a collage of art in itself as well. Public Enemy and the Bomb Squad, as well as the Beastie Boys or Marley Marl of the Juice Crew pretty much paved the way for a lot of hip-hop producers who later pioneered sampling, but also for artists like DJ Shadow, or Portishead, or The Prodigy. A sampled hip-hop song usually becomes memorable not only because there is a good melody, but because the instrumentation of the sample was unique, or because there was a distinct texture to that song due to how it was recorded. Due to sampling, a number of producers essentially became composers later on, since they were inspired by songs from certain genres that were essentially sampled in hip-hop songs, and they carried that on as inspiration in their art.

[@critical_bryan]

I was fortunate enough to have an amazing World Musics professor in University who asked "What is Music" on the very first day. Most of the answers described a very European definition of music. He ended up subtly getting the class down to the understanding that "music is a combination of sounds and silence" and I have viewed it as such ever since. It's simple and non-exclusionary, the way that music should be.

[@jonathanrossmusic2509]

While not my favorite style of music, I really like hip-hop. And yes it’s music. Do we even need to ask?

[@craigdaubbeats-rapinstrume9185]

I can't believe we're still having this argument in 2019.

[@SuperheroWannabe]

Yo Twitter brought me here. What a unique and creative channel. Definitely subbed. keep it up 👍

[@klink4313]

Out of the many genres of music I've listened to, rap/hip hop has been the most impressive in terms of lyrical ability. The story telling, complex flows and rhyme schemes, the deep and profound lyrics imbedded in metaphors, the vivid imagery, etc... have always stood out to me more than any other genre has. Obviously, a lot of popular rap today lacks that, but there is still a lot talent that goes unrecognized in a decent amount of unpopular hip hop music.

[@JoeStuffz]

I never got the connection to rap from rock until I tried to learn how to sing Takin Care of Business by BTO. A lot of early rock songs like that, and along the style of Rolling Stones were heavy on a repetitive rhythm with a very talking-like style of singing. You tend to hang out on a single note quite often. Recently, I started to listen to Rhapsody of Fire. The over-the-top EP The Cold Embrace of Fear has a song: The Ancient Fires Of Har-Kuun. The song is a 15 minute epic that has sections (one around 5 minutes in) where the lead vocalist sings in a distorted vocal style that's right in-between singing and rapping. I'm almost willing to say that he's straight-up rapping on those bars.

[@luizcarlosdeoliveira8760]

i think the part that stands the most in rap is the rhythm , it's always like this , the rhythm , harmonies and the melodies..the rhythm plays dominant roles in rap

[@LBAW]

Sampling is intrinsic to hip-hop. It's an extension of the philosophies of hip-hop culture. The culture was built by people who had little to no resources making art with what they had. The pioneers of hip-hop had very very little in the poorest crime-ridden New York neighborhoods of the 70s and 80s. But what they did have were records and turntables, so they made their own music using them.

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

I sort of feel that by answering this question, we're all feeding a couple of trolls. I doubt that anybody who makes such claims in public really believes that rap is not music. That said, there's a way to turn such derogative statements around: If rap really is not music, that means that the artists who created this form have invented a whole new form of artistic expression, hitherto unknown in human culture (a form in between music and poetry, perhaps). This is a breakthrough far beyond the quotidian accomplishment of just writing more music, or even creating a new musical genre.

[@kevinwheeler8871]

One thing i'd put out there for discussion re: instrument virtuosity is that in modern times a DAW can be an instrument and that top rap artists reach incredible heights in using them.

[@thelbronius]

A thoughtful, well articulated response! Music and culture are so interdependent that in order to fully appreciate either, you have to know about both elements.

[@eggaiug]

Great vid man

[@brubarurno]

Great analysis!

[@KurosakiYukigo]

Yes. It's definitely music. Is it music I often detest? Yes. But that's more of a personal preference and the environment I was raised than an indictment of its musicality. To say it isn't music is such a silly argument.

[@mannysikario]

You could hear specific rap artists if you want to give it a break. J-Cole, MF DOOM, etc. are good examples.

[@zyaicob]

I personally think saying you dislike an entire genre of music is just unfair to yourself and the music.

[@quiensera9947]

@@zyaicob Completely agree. There's variation even in rap. Just look at Flobots, Big Scoob, Tech N9ne, Brother Ali, Macklemore and Eminem.

[@GwazaJuse]

Omg this is so good I could cry 😢 The only part I don't quite agree with is the sampling part. Hip-Hop sampling is a cultural variety of musical bricolage using records (classically from the late 60s and early 70s, but anything goes) as a form of musique concrète, in very specific forms (akin to the four positions of ballet), which trace back to canonical breakbeats such as Apache, Funky Drummer, Substitution, Big Beat, Ashley's Roach Clip etc. which directly descends from the "Merry Go Round" technique of breakbeat extension using turntables first invented by Kool DJ Herc in the early 70s. Then the techniques were expanded by Grandmaster Flash and the repertoire of records used was expanded by Afrika Bambaataa. Marley Marl and others brought all those techniques and aesthetics into producer culture when he invented Hip-Hop sampling as we know it today and it affirmed the founding gestures of the medium as a result and live instrumentation was abandoned and synthetic production sidelined, which was the Big Bang of Hip-Hop musicianship in its current form as a distinct musical medium (typified by 90s era production), beyond rap. Hip-hop sampling can certainly be virtuosic as a result and JDilla is considered the prime virtuoso of it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXaxq4eqaMunn7c

[@GibusWearingMann]

Great video!

[@driverlance]

Can’t believe you missed the opportunity to add the second foot with We Will Rock You’ s rhythm (foot foot clap) 😆 Great video nonetheless. Always look forward to the research and thought that goes into all of your videos. Thank you.

[@almoglevin]

THANK YOU! I agree with everything and you really covered everything.

[@almoglevin]

Using "everything" twice because everything.

[@rorypurtle7556]

Such a strong argument!!! I would personally like to expand on your point saying that rap "isnt just talking", and say that it isnt talking at all. No one talks how people rap. Its a form of vocal performance thats far closer to speech than contemporary singing yet it uses so many techniques that seperate it from speech and only rarely tries to imitate. Just for anyone who's interested, since i personally love rap music as it is a almost an anti-thesis to the theory behind all contemporary western music

[@ChibiQilin]

Rap is like modern day Bard poems, which are sometimes monophonic and some times full out songs as we think of today, or sometimes it's just poetry without much of a melody at all, or the emphasis isn't on the melody.

[@maxonmendel5757]

The bit I found on Apple Music from Cardew “Treatise (Excerpt)” from Tilbury Duch and Davies is actually haunting. Like anxiety inducing, especially at fourAM. It would fit well with a psychedelic dream video. Right now I can almost imagine my leg (which is in my peripheral vision) turning up. And some strange Walker coming into my bedroom. It so creepy.

[@koalanights]

Thank you for this! It's literally important. In Atlanta where I live we have very polarized ideological differences that generally depend on your proximity to the city. There's ITP (in the perimeter of city) and OTP (outside of the city) where so many affluent white folks fled during post 'white flight' in the civil rights era. I hear so much hatred toward rap that is barely veiled racism coming from the latter, literally denigrating an art form that is central to our community and economy. They typically do this while having no trouble enjoying violent or sexual media with any other cultural trajectory. I appreciate your tact with this video and the conceptual glue you have provided us with to respond to some of the asinine arguments I regularly deal with. TLDR I love cerebrally proving fuck nuts wrong for the sake of humanity and also for the possibility of creativity and art to evade prescriptive bounds to effectively express and display some of societies most marginalized and idiosyncratic perspectives.

[@bernardoestrela6029]

amazing as always.

[@xXx2tired2thinkxXx]

I’d love to hear what you think about electronic music in the same way. And not the easy stuff, the borderline noise music that definitely has Rythem, but challenges our regular ideas of harmony and melody

[@mrfudd13]

In our h.s. vocal group (1960's), we performed what our teacher referred to as sprechtstemme, ( I think the author was Ernst Bloch) it was entirely spoken rythimically, and bore little resemblance to rap, so the concept has been around a long time.

[@nobodylistens5322]

I enjoyed the video, but HOW THE HELL IS THAT EVEN A BLOODY QUESTION?

[@the.Aruarian]

Basically because humans gon' human. "They are not us. We are not them."

[@UGamer-rg5vz]

Nice vid. Too often I find articles and vids clarifying/defending rap composed by people who admittedly don't know much about the music. Can't tell you the number of times I've come across a blogger, journalist, commentor etc who has to start off their expository intro paragraph with that same generic pun, "I don't know crap about rap but..." It seems as if they're more concerned about sticking for what they perceive to be persecuted entity or giving their two cents on a subject that piques their interest than actually providing a well-balanced, thoroughly-researched analysis. All that aside, it nice to hear this sort of in-depth, detailed clarification. That said, I'm not gonna get into the hip hop vs rap specifics for the same reasons you didn't. My only nitpick (aside from the obligatorily pejorative use of the word "technical") is I wish you'd included a more extensive list of examples of rap-songs-as-music composition in the video to convey the explanation. Common's my man, but frankly when I think of musical hip hop artists, I tend to acquiesce towards RZA first and foremost, Dre (eh), Premier, Timbaland, Grandmaster Flash, Missy Elliot, Future, MF Doom, Danger, Kanye, Lauryn Hill, Childish Major, Kid Cudi, Dessa, Lil Jon (eh), Mike Will Made It, Flying Lotus, Rick Rubin, Metro Boomin, Nujabes, et al. Don't have to go crazy like I did, but let's at least adhere to the rule of three. Maybe "Black Beatles", "Runaway", "Gimme Some More", and "The Message?" Alright, that's four. I get carried away.

[@julianhernandez3947]

Even though I don't listen to rap, there are lots of great points in this video. I especially appreciate your point about auto tune and other music technology.

[@brian1749]

Excellent job! The next time I hear someone say rap isn't music, I'm referring them back to this video!

[@BeastOfTraal]

When I took music appreciation in college the definition of music the professor gave was "organized sound". Which I think is to broad. Organized sound would include a conversation, or the sound of an ambulance siren. I think what make music music is that is was created with intent of being music. On the subject of sampling even sampling non musical sounds can become music. Just listen to anything by Public Service Broadcasting.

[@AtomicChristmas]

As someone who makes tons of rap beats I'd really love to see a musical analysis of some african american styles, especially some funk or gospel. Rap borrows a lot of its microrhythmic technique from funk and it would be awesome to see a rhythmic breakdown of an Anderson Paak song or something to really understand what miliseconds of delay on snares or kicks have on the listener. Also the increadibly complex modulations of some oldschool gospel chords amaze me especially because i was raised on music theory, which they somehow avoid completely (aside from 1-5 and recognizable things) and have theyre own sort of major/minor fluidity with its own resolutions built around blues scales and 7 chords and i just wish I understood it enough to use it in my own work.

[@patgambin6676]

I love you dude! Thanks!

[@tomasburianek6241]

I've seen Yes on thumbnail, and I though "oh, He is going to speek about Yes. Finally!" Nevermind, still good video :)